I would be suprised to know that this hasn't been posted, earlier, but I couldn't find anything about it with a search. If it's old news, I do apologize.

http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/8435.cfm

I also find the first entry in the related articles quite fascinating, in that it says that Sony says that anyone producing porn in BD will lose their license. There are many who claim that porn was one of the major reasons that VHS beat out Betamax.

You apparently didn't search the right forums... there's been lots of talk about both of those topics.

51gb discs are vaporware at the moment and need to be accepted by the dvd forum before they'll have a chance of seeing the light of day. I, honestly, don't think they'll matter, as HD-DVD group has actually done a pretty good job of proving that 30gb is plenty -- now they're going to have to try to prove that 50gb is necessary, which, would likely help out the BR just as much.

The porn situation is all bunk -- Sony didn't say that and porn on BD is being released... Sony's pressing lines just won't be doing it, but their dvd ones don't do it either. Sony isn't the BDA and can't pull a license if someone produces porn.

You apparently didn't search the right forums... there's been lots of talk about both of those topics.

51gb discs are vaporware at the moment and need to be accepted by the dvd forum before they'll have a chance of seeing the light of day. I, honestly, don't think they'll matter, as HD-DVD group has actually done a pretty good job of proving that 30gb is plenty -- now they're going to have to try to prove that 50gb is necessary, which, would likely help out the BR just as much.

The porn situation is all bunk -- Sony didn't say that and porn on BD is being released... Sony's pressing lines just won't be doing it, but their dvd ones don't do it either. Sony isn't the BDA and can't pull a license if someone produces porn.

Perhaps I didn't do a sufficient search (although I did try) -- I am sorry. Thanks for adding clarity to the BD porn thing, as well. Makes sense to me!

-C

...51gb discs are vaporware at the moment and need to be accepted by the dvd forum before they'll have a chance of seeing the light of day...now they're going to have to try to prove that 50gb is necessary,...I just don't get this. Why shouldn't Toshiba and the DVD Forum be allowed to grow the format capabilities? Frozen in time forever? Should hard drives not be allowed to grow to 5 TB capacity?

I just don't get this. Why shouldn't Toshiba and the DVD Forum be allowed to grow the format capabilities? Frozen in time forever? Should hard drives not be allowed to grow to 5 TB capacity?

They (and forum lunatics - maybe mostly them?) spent an good amount of time convincing people that 30gb was enough... and I agree, judging by some of the 30gb HD-DVD titles, I don't think 50gb would do a whole lot to give consumers a patently better movie experience. I'm not saying it wouldn't be good to have, it's just it isn't a huge deal and probably won't matter much since 30gb is enough -- for it to matter, they'd need to justify it someway. As far as benefit in the end, it probably won't make much of a difference at this point (to the consumer experience, at least). Marketing/PR wise, it sends a mixed message to some extent ("so 30gb isn't enough now?").

In the recent Amir interview at Hidefdigest, he even states 30gb for movie is enough and extras on a second disc is a fine way to go. So what's the point of a 51gb disc? 30gb is enough for video and a second disc is fine for extras (infact a lot of the j6p consumers like getting two discs -- it makes them feel like they got a good deal -- amir even mentions that).

And in most cases, once a format is drawn out and released, they generally don't change it much... so it's hardly comparable to a harddrive in how they increase in storage capacity.

@Chris Moreau, I didn't mean to sound mean there -- the first line is lacking a wink-smiley. Hopefully you didn't take it that way.

I think the entire thing was marketing babble.

Why haven't we seen a working 45gb disc? It's been over 2 years since we first heard of the 45gb. Surely, if they can't even get a working prototype of the 45, who knows what's going on with the 51gb. This is beyond vaporware. It hasn't even been submitted yet for approval = still on paper.

In the recent Amir interview at Hidefdigest, he even states 30gb for movie is enough and extras on a second disc is a fine way to go. So what's the point of a 51gb disc? 30gb is enough for video and a second disc is fine for extras (infact a lot of the j6p consumers like getting two discs -- it makes them feel like they got a good deal -- amir even mentions that).Amir doesn't make the decisions for Disney. I'm guessing he would like to given how he has told us in the past that no studios were interested in doing any secondary tracks with lossless audio and how kids don't need lossless audio with relation to Disney (despite knowledgeable people knowing that the Disney group controls a lot more than just kids movies). Another insider has mentioned that packaging costs matter to the studios. From what I've read, they will do dual disc releases for big movies, but are less likely to do so for less successful movies (basically ones that don't look like they will sell as many copies). The 2 disc thing works pretty well when the studios keep it somewhat special. Start using it for over half of releases and it will become much less so and probably even get into annoyance territory after a while if people can get just about as much content on 1 disc without sacrificing quality.

It seems that some people want to ignore that extras have mostly been SD so far. One of the things an HD format should bring to the table is extras in HD. And HD cameras are going down enough in price that lots of extras should be in HD in a couple of years. I know that a person can argue that those HD extras can just go on the 2nd disc as common practice for even movies that will only sell an average number of copies, but I for one am glad that Microsoft doesn't get to make that decision and it is largely up to the studios.

--Darin

Amir doesn't make the decisions for Disney. I'm guessing he would like to given how he has told us in the past that no studios were interested in doing any secondary tracks with lossless and how kids don't need lossless audio with relation to Disney (despite knowledgeable people knowing that the Disney group controls a lot more than just kids movies). Another insider has mentioned that packaging costs matter to the studios. From what I've read, they will do dual disc releases for big movies, but are less likely to do so for less successful movies (basically ones that don't look like they will sell as many copies). The 2 disc thing works pretty well when the studios keep it somewhat special. Start using it for over half of releases and it will become much less so and probably even get into annoyance territory after a while if people can get just about as much content on 1 disc without sacrificing quality.

It seems that some people want to ignore that extras have mostly been SD so far. One of the things an HD format should bring to the table is extras in HD. And HD cameras are going down enough in price that lots of extras should be in HD in a couple of years. I know that a person can argue that those HD extras can just go on the 2nd disc as common practice for even movies that will only sell an average number of copies, but I for one am glad that Microsoft doesn't get to make that decision and it is up to the studios.

--Darin

Good point. What's Disney's track record when it comes to HD extras, multiple lossless tracks etc?

It's also funny that everyone ignores that a huge part of what Disney and others want is to include additional interactive content, including gamelets and internet interactivity ("tea parties") that would desperately need more than 30gb of space. But I agree with others who said this is just marketing blatehr. THey are marketing to the studios (especially Disney) trying to convince them that if they would only switch, they can stil impliment all of their ideas for additional revenue streams.

That said, I doubt we will ever see TL HD DVDs, because the formats main backer (MSFT) does not want them. Additional space future-proofs the format better and allows for value-added content that would better compete against IPTV, and then what would be the point of MSFT backing HD DVD?

I think the entire thing was marketing babble.

Why haven't we seen a working 45gb disc? It's been over 2 years since we first heard of the 45gb. Surely, if they can't even get a working prototype of the 45, who knows what's going on with the 51gb. This is beyond vaporware. It hasn't even been submitted yet for approval = still on paper.

If you goal is to port existing 50Gb disks from BD into HD DVD, 45 GB does not work. Hence the 51 GB. JMHO.

Good point. What's Disney's track record when it comes to HD extras, multiple lossless tracks etc?In Japan they've done the multiple lossless thing. In the US it seems like they are just getting to the combination of VC-1 and BD50s. I haven't checked out today's releases from them to see what they have for codecs, sizes, and extras though.

I think with Disney we should look at their track record from DVDs. From what I've heard, they love to put a lot of extra goodies on their DVD releases. I expect them to be using a lot of HD for extras in the future, but we'll have to see.

--Darin

If you goal is to port existing 50Gb disks from BD into HD DVD, 45 GB does not work. Hence the 51 GB. JMHO.

DING DING DING!!! We have a winner. I can definitely see Blu-ray only studios saying "hey, we've been making encodes for Blu-ray and aren't going to redo them for HD-DVD." So, they get 51GB and then just port them.....

You guys, in addition to DIsney loving to put extras on their DVDs (and their quick leap into putting exclusive HD BluScape videos on their initial releases) they have explicitly state their goals. They want to increase user use/reuse time, and use interativity and ISP connections to allow for kids (and otehr movie fans) participate in online events, etc. They are hoping that some will even be worth chargin for. Of course this would be in the coming 10-18 months (based upon BD-J availability and ethernet ports being standard), but then BD was intended to last ten years or more as a format.

I just don't get this. Why shouldn't Toshiba and the DVD Forum be allowed to grow the format capabilities? Frozen in time forever? Should hard drives not be allowed to grow to 5 TB capacity?

I think his point is after HD-DVD spent so much time saying 50GB is unnecessary, now they are going to have to turn around and explain the need.

I disagree since there was an acknowledged intention to get TL-45 approved sometime this year, and it was clearly intended merely to have it available if studios wanted it. Given the 15GB layer was developed several years ago, the advance to 17GB is an understandable technological leapfrog to TL-51.

So that remark is really nothing more than spin.

What's more interesting to me is the suggested increase of disc rotation rate to 1.5x. I would love to hear what that's really all about :).

^ I'm very curious about that speed increase myself considering I own 4 HD DVD players.

I think the entire thing was marketing babble.

Why haven't we seen a working 45gb disc? It's been over 2 years since we first heard of the 45gb. Surely, if they can't even get a working prototype of the 45, who knows what's going on with the 51gb. This is beyond vaporware. It hasn't even been submitted yet for approval = still on paper.

The TL45 was developed and replicator verified back in 2005 (searchable news clip). Toshiba's expectation was to have it approved by the DVD Forum around mid 2007 (according to a Toshiba optical drive engineer interviewed during the European consumer product show last summer and reported on AVForums).

So no, there is no reason at all to suppose vaporware for the TL45. Articles discussing TL51 are plausible so we can only wait and see what actually materializes.

You guys, in addition to DIsney loving to put extras on their DVDs (and their quick leap into putting exclusive HD BluScape videos on their initial releases) they have explicitly state their goals. They want to increase user use/reuse time, and use interativity and ISP connections to allow for kids (and otehr movie fans) participate in online events, etc. They are hoping that some will even be worth chargin for. Of course this would be in the coming 10-18 months (based upon BD-J availability and ethernet ports being standard), but then BD was intended to last ten years or more as a format.

The problem with this theory is that (1) the kind of interactivity talked about here is much smaller than the HD content, almost nominal in comparison, and (2) Disney was the co-creater of HDi.

Based on those two facts, I don't see interactivity as the key reason for Disney joining BD. They will have lots of interactivity, but I don't think that was the deal breaker because I don't think BD has an advantage there.

I would bet they are planning on putting three or four kids movies on a single 50G disc, and then allowing parents to buy only one of them. Later, they could spend a bit more and unlock the other 2 or 3.

That would be a valid reason to want a 50G disc imo.

^ I'm very curious about that speed increase myself considering I own 4 HD DVD players.

Kind of reminds me of when DTS was added to SD DVD players. Though the discs were still backwards compatible, the new audiotrack required a new player (same kind of thing happened with VHS, Beta, and LD). God knows what the story will be on this one, or if it will even materialize.

For that matter, we don't know anything yet about TL51 compatibility with our players either (though at one time, Amir reported being told TL45 was expected to be hardware compatible). If TL51 is approved, I wonder if SL15 and DL30 will also be rolled forward to SL17 and DL34? From a production standpoint it would make good sense. Hopefully our current drives can handle it (at worst requiring a firmware update).

Good point. What's Disney's track record when it comes to HD extras, multiple lossless tracks etc?Not much at the moment, but than again what was their track record on DVD extras in the first year of its release? Blu-ray is not even a year old yet so it would be jumping the gun a bit to assume that more extra features in the future won't be in HD.


The problem with this theory is that (1) the kind of interactivity talked about here is much smaller than the HD content, almost nominal in comparison, and (2) Disney was the co-creater of HDi.Just to point this out but from what Talkstr8t has said Disney didn't really put that much into HDi and the main reason they were involved in it looks to me as a means to make HDi look like something not entirely made by Microsoft. Also from the sounds of it Disney is working on BD-J with their future Blu-ray titles so what difference does it make that they were once involved with HDi?


I would bet they are planning on putting three or four kids movies on a single 50G disc, and then allowing parents to buy only one of them. Later, they could spend a bit more and unlock the other 2 or 3.Strange that you mention this theory since I am pretty sure that I saw this being promoted as a feature on the HD DVD Promotions Group website. I believe this is a feature that can be done with AACS so both HD formats are capable of it.

I don't think that the DVD Forum needs to do any explaining about increasing the HD DVD capacity to whatever... I do believe that if any particular content provider(s) have told them privately that the only thing preventing them from producing on HD DVD is that their business plan has specific requirements for that 50GB capacity sometime in the future, then clearly they should have no objection to supporting the HD DVD format if they trot out a viable 51GB product. I think they are just paving the way for wider studio support down the road.

Eric

Based on those two facts, I don't see interactivity as the key reason for Disney joining BD.


So Disney goes to MS convinces them to work together and make a new menu system that can be interactive. and you don't think it is key to them?

If you agree it is important to them to have interactive content(in what ever format they are thinking) then it becomes obvious that a cool menu system is useless if the capacity and BW needed is not there in the format.

If you agree it is important to them to have interactive content(in what ever format they are thinking) then it becomes obvious that a cool menu system is useless if the capacity and BW needed is not there in the format.

Of course, there you are assuming those are the specific reasons Disney is currently BR exclusive. Maybe they just did the same thing as before with DiVX?

I think his point is after HD-DVD spent so much time saying 50GB is unnecessary, now they are going to have to turn around and explain the need.

I disagree since there was an acknowledged intention to get TL-45 approved sometime this year, and it was clearly intended merely to have it available if studios wanted it. Given the 15GB layer was developed several years ago, the advance to 17GB is an understandable technological leapfrog to TL-51.

So that remark is really nothing more than spin.

What's more interesting to me is the suggested increase of disc rotation rate to 1.5x. I would love to hear what that's really all about :).
The same way Sony told everybody that MPEG2 was the ideal codec and Advanced Codec was not required. Now that their AVC tools are ready they are jumping in the Advance codec bandwagon with the latest release using AVC.

The same way Sony told everybody that MPEG2 was the ideal codec and Advanced Codec was not required. Now that their AVC tools are ready they are jumping in the Advance codec bandwagon with the latest release using AVC.My memory is that about a year ago Sony was saying that VC1 and MPEG4 weren't ready, but that they would move to an advanced codec when ready. When are you referring to as far as your statement about what Sony was telling everybody?

--Darin

The same way Sony told everybody that MPEG2 was the ideal codec and Advanced Codec was not required. Now that their AVC tools are ready they are jumping in the Advance codec bandwagon with the latest release using AVC.

Why would you think Sony spent the last several years developping an AVC encoder if they weren't at all interested in it?

Gary

If you goal is to port existing 50Gb disks from BD into HD DVD, 45 GB does not work. Hence the 51 GB. JMHO.
I think they could do it on an HD30 if they dropped the lossless audio and ported it with just a Dolby Digital Plus track, like most of the HD DVD's have.

The same way Sony told everybody that MPEG2 was the ideal codec and Advanced Codec was not required. Now that their AVC tools are ready they are jumping in the Advance codec bandwagon with the latest release using AVC.

As I mentioned above, TL45 was actually replicator verified in 2005, but according to Amir, there have been no studio requests for it (at least through October which I believe is when he made that comment). If technology has continued to advance (I believe Sony originally came up with a 10GB layer which was considered enough for the longest Japanese films) and 17GB is now practical, then I guess Toshiba will be submitting TL51 late 2007 instead of submitting TL45 mid 2007. Either way, it remains in the pocket until studios ask for it.

The only difference I see is technology continues to creep along :).

I may be way off, but considering CD moved from 650 Mb to 700 Mb to 800 Mb without any need in CD reader's end, then logically if Toshiba moves from DL to TL, it doesn't matter whether each layer is 15 Gb or 17 Gb.

I may be way off, but considering CD moved from 650 Mb to 700 Mb to 800 Mb without any need in CD reader's end, then logically if Toshiba moves from DL to TL, it doesn't matter whether each layer is 15 Gb or 17 Gb.

Remember when DVD went from 8.5GB to 9GB to 10GB? Oh, right that never happened.

just because it doesn't happen with DVD so it can't happen on HD-DVD? How narrow minded you are. Technically, if it needs to be done, all they have to do is have a tighter track pitch and bring the track further to the edge of the disc.

just because it doesn't happen with DVD so it can't happen on HD-DVD? How narrow minded you are. Technically, if it needs to be done, all they have to do is have a tighter track pitch and bring the track further to the edge of the disc.

And all they need to do is put the data layer 0.1mm from the surface and it's a Blu-ray disc...

Sorry, but I just don't believe HD51 is possible without breaking existing players. This isn't Star Trek where you can re-engineer things though technobabble like: "It's simple, we can reroute a phased tachyon stream through the boson conductor and detect the Romulan cloak."

I'm not talking about the 3rd layer. To me, the 3rd layer vapourware. When I'm talking about track pitch, I'm talking about how to obtain the 17 Gb per layer from the current 15 Gb.

I also strongly believe that if they didn't design TL to begin with, why design it now? Just fold the HD DVD standard and join BD.

Of course, there you are assuming those are the specific reasons Disney is currently BR exclusive. Maybe they just did the same thing as before with DiVX?

I am not assuming anything. Skogan decided to dismiss the possibility that it is that because he thought it did not make sense. I just pointed out it does.

No one knows how much interactive will take up. If Disney wants several characters and a tea party that can be high. If they want 2h of trailers that are picked at random at the start that can take up a lot, if they want multiple language tracks that can take up a lot. If they want the Oreiginal and fixed up recolorized version so that a user can switch between the two then it can take up a lot. And the second point that they helped with HDi is irrelevent. It does though show that interactivity is important to them. Is it the most? is it the only? who knows.

but just to be devil's advocate, if Disney really want ALL those to be included (2 versions of the movie, multiple language tracks, 2 hours of trailers (all in HD), tea-party and what not, even 50 Gb is not enough. They'll still end up with 3 discs.

People, don't forget that TL51 is supposed to be 1.5X as well. IMO, that is as much of a barrier to backward compatibility as triple-layer, if not more. While existing drives themselves work at 2X or higher already, perhaps the rest of the electronics in the players may not be able to cope with the 50% higher data rate.

I'd MUCH prefer TL45 1.0X if it were possible to implement it successfully on 1st and 2nd players, than TL51 1.5X if it could only work with 3rd gen players.

However, we have no idea at the moment if even TL45 1.0X would work on current players. Maybe it can't. Similarly we have no idea at the moment if TL51 1.5X would not work current players, either. Maybe it can after firmware updates in the players. Also, none of these triple layer ideas have yet been ratified. For all we know, if a new triple layer format were ratified by the DVD Forum, we could get a TL51 1.0X or something else. But yes, for the time being, it's really just vapourware.

People, don't forget that TL51 is supposed to be 1.5X as well. IMO, that is as much of a barrier to backward compatibility as triple-layer, if not more. While existing drives themselves work at 2X or higher already, perhaps the rest of the electronics in the players may not be able to cope with the 50% higher data rate.

I'd MUCH prefer TL45 1.0X if it were possible to implement it successfully on 1st and 2nd players, than TL51 1.5X if it could only work with 3rd gen players.

The only mention I've found so far regarding 1.5x is in an Amir post. My Google searches never turned that up for HD-DVD period, let alone in conjunction with TL51. It looks to me like it is nothing more than a possibililty, as opposed to an inherent part of the package. It could end up being another option: 1x or 1.5x.

However, we have no idea at the moment if even TL45 1.0X would work on current players. Maybe it can't. Similarly we have no idea at the moment if TL51 1.5X would not work current players, either. Maybe it can after firmware updates in the players. Also, none of these triple layer ideas have yet been ratified. For all we know, if a new triple layer format were ratified by the DVD Forum, we could get a TL51 1.0X or something else. But yes, for the time being, it's really just vapourware.

Last Fall (October I believe) Amir told us he had been told by Toshiba technical staff that TL45 would work in existing players. Given that isn't something in the player specs (can't be since TL45 hasn't been DVD Forum approved), we can't be dead certain, but at least a probablility exists. Perhaps it would require nothing more than a drive firmware update.

The same scenario could also apply to TL51. I feel the 1.5x question is the larger wildcard, but it's all too early to know anything yet.

The only mention I've found so far regarding 1.5x is in an Amir post. My Google searches never turned that up for HD-DVD period, let alone in conjunction with TL51. It looks to me like it is nothing more than a possibililty, as opposed to an inherent part of the package. It could end up being another option: 1x or 1.5x.
Yes, I specifically asked him this question.

He reiterated that he was told the intent for TL51 was 1.5X, but that since nothing had been approved (or even submitted as a formal proposal), it doesn't have to be 1.5X. It's perfectly possible that Toshiba could compromise, for a 1.0X TL51 proposal.


Last Fall (October I believe) Amir told us he had been told by Toshiba technical staff that TL45 would work in existing players. Given that isn't something in the player specs (can't be since TL45 hasn't been DVD Forum approved), we can't be dead certain, but at least a probablility exists. Perhaps it would require nothing more than a drive firmware update.

The same scenario could also apply to TL51. I feel the 1.5x question is the larger wildcard, but it's all too early to know anything yet.
I wasn't aware that Amir was told that TL45 1.0X would work on current players. (Do you happen to have a link?) He did tell me though that TL45 1.0X has never been formally submitted as a proposal to the DVD Forum. What I wonder is if TL45 indeed was fine, why didn't they submit it for approval?

While TL51 1.5X would be cool, as it basically makes the technical side of HD DVD and Blu-ray basically equivalent (more or less), I'm not actually that interested in it, since bandwidth isn't a big issue to me. (I do understand that some people would prefer multiple lossless audio tracks though.)

I am a bit more interested in larger storage however, specifically because rare outlier movies (like extended versions of LOTR) would benefit from more storage than 30 GB. TL45 1.0X would be more than sufficient however.

I wasn't aware that Amir was told that TL45 1.0X would work on current players. (Do you happen to have a link?) He did tell me though that TL45 1.0X has never been formally submitted as a proposal to the DVD Forum. What I wonder is if TL45 indeed was fine, why didn't they submit it for approval?

It would take me major hunting to find that, but it was in the HD-DVD player forum -- perhaps the A1 thread. Amir's explanation for the delay in TL45 submission was that it wasn't especially important until a studio requested it -- everybody was supposedly happy with DL30. A Toshiba optical drive engineer said in an AVForums interview that Toshiba expected to submit it mid 2007 (European consumer products show last summer). Appeared to be pretty much a back burner item -- no solidified need.

While TL51 1.5X would be cool, as it basically makes the technical side of HD DVD and Blu-ray basically equivalent (more or less), I'm not actually that interested in it, since bandwidth isn't a big issue to me. (I do understand that some people would prefer multiple lossless audio tracks though.)

I am a bit more interested in larger storage however, specifically because rare outlier movies (like extended versions of LOTR) would benefit from more storage than 30 GB. TL45 1.0X would be more than sufficient however.

I expect TL51 is 50% marketing and 50% inducement (perhaps the same thing :)?). Still, I'd like to see it in place if only as a counter to the forever capacity argument. An option for 1.5x wouldn't hurt for the companion bandwidth argument :).

It would take me major hunting to find that, but it was in the HD-DVD player forum -- perhaps the A1 thread. Amir's explanation for the delay in TL45 submission was that it wasn't especially important until a studio requested it -- everybody was supposedly happy with DL30. A Toshiba optical drive engineer said in an AVForums interview that Toshiba expected to submit it mid 2007 (European consumer products show last summer). Appeared to be pretty much a back burner item -- no solidified need.
I personally think if it isn't officially proposed by sometime this year, then it will never happen.

Yeah, I could see Toshiba and Microsoft players being backward compatible, but I'd be less confident with other new players since they may have less Toshiba influence, and thus would see little reason to implement potential TL support, if there isn't even an official proposal for it.

Indeed, I'm still confused why it hasn't been already proposed (not ratified) if there is any interest in it at all from Toshiba.

I personally think if it isn't officially proposed by sometime this year, then it will never happen.

Yeah, I could see Toshiba and Microsoft players being backward compatible, but I'd be less confident with other new players since they may have less Toshiba influence, and thus would see little reason to implement potential TL support, if there isn't even an official proposal for it.

Indeed, I'm still confused why it hasn't been already proposed (not ratified) if there is any interest in it at all from Toshiba.

Given they are serious about TL51 (implied by their public announcement) I would say TL45 is now past tense. It has been leapfrogged by advancing technology. :)

Presuming the Toshiba HD-DVD drive possesses TL45 capability, players released by other manufacturers will likely have that capability as well. I suspect Toshiba expects to be a major supplier of HD-DVD drives. Just got to see what transpires this year. :)

People, don't forget that TL51 is supposed to be 1.5X as well. IMO, that is as much of a barrier to backward compatibility as triple-layer, if not more. While existing drives themselves work at 2X or higher already, perhaps the rest of the electronics in the players may not be able to cope with the 50% higher data rate.

I'd MUCH prefer TL45 1.0X if it were possible to implement it successfully on 1st and 2nd players, than TL51 1.5X if it could only work with 3rd gen players.

However, we have no idea at the moment if even TL45 1.0X would work on current players. Maybe it can't. Similarly we have no idea at the moment if TL51 1.5X would not work current players, either. Maybe it can after firmware updates in the players. Also, none of these triple layer ideas have yet been ratified. For all we know, if a new triple layer format were ratified by the DVD Forum, we could get a TL51 1.0X or something else. But yes, for the time being, it's really just vapourware. I think thats on of the advanateges od teh 1st generation players being bascially HTPCs. They have the raw horespower to do this , if th edrive is capable of reading it. The NEC brochure said the drive they was capable of reading it, so there's hope at least that the HD A1 and HD XA1 could do it. Its simplified by the fact that Toshiba is advancing this standard and it built those products.

I also agree that it spossible that existing 1st and 2nd players could probably read a DL34 disc with a firmware update as that's a simplier problem.