what the f! Pioneer's Parson actually said that, if someone wants to spend $499 on a hidef player, they should get a PS3. Guess we wont be seeing any standalone BD players at $499 anytime soon.

"It's cheap, but maybe it's cheap for a reason (added: referring to Toshiba's players," said Parsons. "If someone wants to spend $499 on a player, they should get a PS3."


opps sorry .. the link http://www.cepro.com/news/editorial/17508.html

It just means we won't be seeing one from Pioneer any time soon. PS3 is definitely an awesome BR player, so I don't see how that's a bad recommendation.

Kind of curious -- where is this from? (don't doubt that he said that, but I kind of want to read the rest of the article/interview/whatever)

Your sig is kind of boring, also.

Screw that where are the 300 titles?

I mean how long are HD DVD buyers supposed to wait? Maybe in march they will realse 30 titles a month? 30 titles x 10 months = 300.

Hold on is it 300 or 600 titles in 2007?

He goes on later to say ethernet ports weren't standard on BD players because it would drive costs up, yet these "cheap" HD-DVD players that are "cheap for a reason" managed to do it. :rolleyes:

I just read the same article from Parsons on the front page of AVS. I especially like this quote:

It's [Toshiba A1 / A2] cheap, but maybe it's cheap for a reason. If someone wants to spend $499 on a player, they should get a PS3.

So it would appear that Parsons has joined the propaganda brigade along with Mike Dunn, Howard Stringer, Bob Chapek, Kazuo Hirai, and the rest of the Blu-Ray clowns. Imagine telling people to buy a videogame over a stand-alone player -- and this coming from the CEO of a supposed high-end CE company! Then he defends BD players' lack of an ethernet output, claiming it would add to the cost! So he belittles the Toshiba that (1) offers a mandated ethernet port for internet access & future downloading capability (optional on BD) (2) offers the mandated TruHD 5.1 decoding (optional on BD) (3) upconverts SD DVD better than high-end upconverting players (NO upconverting on the PS3). Oh, and it happens to deliver STUNNING HD PQ that is, at least, equal to any and all BD players on the market (including his company's player which is nearly 3x the cost)!!!

I happen to own the A1, and it is the BEST piece of electronics equipment I have ever gotten for $499. It's built like a tank, and its performance is excellent. This pathetic rhetoric is really getting old from the BD camp. They should concentrate more on the consumer's needs and less on their propaganda crusade.

I think "cheap for a reason" means Toshiba has to subsidize the hd-dvd players to drive the hd-dvd format.

Doesn't anyone feel the irony here. Parsons should be promoting Pioneer products but instead he's hyping a game console.

Something is awry here and feels dirty.

Doesn't anyone feel the irony here. Parsons should be promoting Pioneer products but instead he's hyping a game console.

Something is awry here and feels dirty.

It's simple. If people don't buy PS3s, Blu-Ray will be a disaster, and all these loudmouths (cue the name list of 'BD spokespersons') would look silly holding their expensive thingamajigs after bombastically claiming victory in the format war at CES.

PS3 is definitely an awesome BR player, so I don't see how that's a bad recommendation.

Agreed.

The Blu-ray Disc Association must think we are stupid.

He says that not everyone wants network features anyway (as reasoning for leaving out ethernet ports). Uh, wouldn't early adopters be MUCH more likely to want to be able to take advantage of maximum features offered by Blu-ray compared to the mass-market.

If anything, ethernet ports should have been mandated for this first generation of players, and as prices come down have the option to leave them out.

Ridiculous.

Hold on is it 300 or 600 titles in 2007?

It's 600 titles total released on HD DVD by the end of 2007. 300 from 2006. 300 from 2007.

But, do you see 300 titles now?

Gary

Ahh so If I don't see 300 titles they don't exist huh?

Maybe to some people but since the BDA has announced their movies we've already seen some delays. Until a movie is shipped to retailers it's vapor and subject to change at any moment.

i wonder if ps2 made dvd's a success?

Doesn't anyone feel the irony here. Parsons should be promoting Pioneer products but instead he's hyping a game console.

Something is awry here and feels dirty.


Parsons' comments have always been strange, considering where he works.
Some of the people in the retail business who deal with him have indicated that he has a melon in place of his actual head....go figure.

Parsons is just sour that there isn't a whole lot of justification right now for his super high priced BD player.

Parsons' comments have always been strange, considering where he works.
Some of the people in the retail business who deal with him have indicated that he has a melon in place of his actual head....go figure.

In defense of Parson, the melon is one of the great fruits of the world. :)

The way I read his statement is that if you want to spend only $499, buy a PS3 and get a good Blu-ray player, don't spend the same $499 on a Toshiba and get HD-DVD.

This makes sense from his perspective as promotion chair of the Blu-ray Disc Association.

Sounds like a lame attempt at boosting the sagging PS3 sales ;)

The way I read his statement is that if you want to spend only $499, buy a PS3 and get a good Blu-ray player, don't spend the same $499 on a Toshiba and get HD-DVD.

This makes sense from his perspective as promotion chair of the Blu-ray Disc Association.
Exactly.

If Toshiba players are "cheap for a reason" then logically the PS3 must be even "cheaper" for reasons similar.

Why not spend $499 on a 360 core + HD DVD add-on drive? There is just as much logic in doing that as there is in picking up a PS3… probably more so since there are actually decent games on the 360.

I mean, if this guy is trying to sound like he has the customer's best interest at heart, why not present all options instead of just pitching the PS3?

BD shills make my stomach turn. So many in this industry are losing respect over this whole Blu Ray debacle.

So it would appear that Parsons has joined the propaganda brigade along with Mike Dunn, Howard Stringer, Bob Chapek, Kazuo Hirai, and the rest of the Blu-Ray clowns. Imagine telling people to buy a videogame over a stand-alone player -- and this coming from the CEO of a supposed high-end CE company! Then he defends BD players' lack of an ethernet output, claiming it would add to the cost! So he belittles the Toshiba that (1) offers a mandated ethernet port for internet access & future downloading capability (optional on BD) (2) offers the mandated TruHD 5.1 decoding (optional on BD) (3) upconverts SD DVD better than high-end upconverting players (NO upconverting on the PS3). Oh, and it happens to deliver STUNNING HD PQ that is, at least, equal to any and all BD players on the market (including his company's player which is nearly 3x the cost)!!!

I happen to own the A1, and it is the BEST piece of electronics equipment I have ever gotten for $499. It's built like a tank, and its performance is excellent. This pathetic rhetoric is really getting old from the BD camp. They should concentrate more on the consumer's needs and less on their propaganda crusade.

Agreed.

Agreed. I think everyone else is bringing some major fanboyism into it. All he's saying is "if all you have is $499, buy a PS3, not a Toshiba".

What else would he say, given his position within the BDA?


That's not what he said, and his position is irrelevant. He takes a cheap shot at Toshiba, and then tells people to buy the PS3 even though it is guilty of the same (or more) "cheapness" he credits to the Toshiba player.

Basically, he is full of BS.

PS3 is a far better bang for the buck than any of the Toshiba players, as would a 360 with an integrated HD-DVD drive (not that I expect to ever see one, though :( ). You can still play games, chat, etc even if the HD format doesn't pan out...

Gamewise, been done with Gears of War for awhile, and the novelty of the BK games is starting to wear off so my 360 has primarily fallen to HD-DVD only use, while I still regularly play both NBA07 and Resistance online, though also heavy BD use (just about every day while the gaming is every 2 or 3 days). I am kinda missing BF2 on the pC, though, so might go back to that shortly. But that's neither here nor there. :)

That's not what he said, and his position is irrelevant. He takes a cheap shot at Toshiba, and then tells people to buy the PS3 even though it is guilty of the same (or more) "cheapness" he credits to the Toshiba player.

Basically, he is full of BS.

In that interview he came out as a pretty disgusting fellow....to me. He does a disservice to the BDA with his tone and attitude.

"Cheap for a reason" is a phrase often used to diminish the quality of a product.

It's like saying "You get what you pay for.."

-Byrd

"Cheap for a reason" is a phrase often used to diminish the quality of a product.

It's like saying "You get what you pay for.."

-Byrd

makes me kinda glad their own BD player is such an unqualified flop. Overpriced and under featured :rolleyes:

makes me kinda glad their own BD player is such an unqualified flop. Overpriced and under featured :rolleyes:

Now I don't feel so bad about returning the Pioneer A/V receiver and buying a Denon 2807 in it's place.

Doesn't anyone feel the irony here. Parsons should be promoting Pioneer products but instead he's hyping a game console.

Something is awry here and feels dirty.

Ironic that the Chair of BDA Promotions is promoting BD? That is suspicious. ;)

Isn't there a Linux running on the A2? What the heck is Amir thinking?! :)

Gary

According to Amir, Andy Parson is one of the very few in the BDA executive branch that realized the AACS compromize is format neutral - during CES2007 -
(and probably doesn't read rdjam's blog, or he'd have realized that Muslix is the very conspiracy cooked up inside the BDA land). :cool:

So if Parson is the smartest in that bunch, what does it tell us about all the others there... :)

Diogen.

In that interview he came out as a pretty disgusting fellow....to me. He does a disservice to the BDA with his tone and attitude.

So what do you think of the HD-DVD guy's "tone and attitude" ?? ;)

"It's all lies."

So said David Chaplin, manager of the HD DVD Mobile Experience, when I told him I had sat down with representatives from the Blu-ray camp at CES and wanted to get the HD DVD camp's perspective on the format war.

b2b

So what do you think of the HD-DVD guy's "tone and attitude" ?? ;)



b2b

Much more civilized. He was exasperated with the lies and cheap shots. Andy Parsons was a jerk in that interview.

According to Amir, Andy Parson is one of the very few in the BDA executive branch that realized the AACS compromize is format neutral - during CES2007 -
(and probably doesn't read rdjam's blog, or he'd have realized that Muslix is the very conspiracy cooked up inside the BDA land). :cool:

So if Parson is the smartest in that bunch, what does it tell us about all the others there... :)

Diogen.


I do hope there is 'karma'. No human power can reign in guys like Mike Dunn from Fox, Andy Parson from Pioneer and Eklund from Sony. I hate it when the bad guys prevail through intimidation and bullying.....

You guys do realize that if the PS3 continues to fail, the other CE companies are in serious trouble since they are not willing to cut the price of their players

They were told they would own the HD market by now and this is just more desperation on their part. I love it!

I think what Andy was implying is that the HD-DVD players are cheap for the reason that if they weren't, the lack of content would make them totally uncompetitive and it would die off in a matter of hours.
Cheap players are HD-DVDs main advantage.

Ironic that the Chair of BDA Promotions is promoting BD? That is suspicious. ;)

Isn't there a Linux running on the A2? What the heck is Amir thinking?! :)

Gary
hehe, thanks. My BP was hitting the 150s, reading some of the invective.

Nothing like a little humour and perspective.


P.S. Yo haters, the PS3 is subsidized like any other console. Its costa about 850-900 to make.

P.P.S. The A1 is either subsidized (unheard of for a 1st gen device of a new format) OR it actually costs less than 500 to make. Pick your poison :D

I do hope there is 'karma'. No human power can reign in guys like Mike Dunn from Fox, Andy Parson from Pioneer and Eklund from Sony. I hate it when the bad guys prevail through intimidation and bullying.....
I hope so too (about the existence of Karma), but for diametrically opposite reasons.

Wont be naming companies, but those who get the concept of Karma will understand.


P.S. Just goes to show you aren't going to find Mother Teresa in-charge at a fortune 500 anytime soon, BD or HD.

I went to my local mall this afternoon in Manchester, NH. Checked in Game Stop -- no Wiis in stock but plenty of PS3 60GB consoles. The kid in the store stated that PS3 sales were very slow because of the price, but Wiis flew out as soon as they get stock.

I next checked BB, where they had a large sign on the PS3 display monitor stating that they had 60GB PS3's in stock, and to check with customer service. They also had 7 Samsung BD players in stock, and 4 of them were OPEN BOX RETURNS with stickers on them stating that an $80 instant gift card was included with the purchase! I guess they're selling well, huh?

On my way out, I saw a sign in the window of EB Games stating that PS3's were in stock. The store was empty.

My local Target in Hooksett, NH has had PS3's in stock for weeks, though I have never seen a Wii there at all. Anyone who thinks that this console is a big hit is completely delusional.

hehe
P.P.S. The A1 is either subsidized (unheard of for a 1st gen device of a new format) OR it actually costs less than 500 to make. Pick your poison :D

Chapman admits it is subsidised in the interview quoted above (the 'it's all lies' one).

Hey, that's pretty cool of him. Big fan of the truth here.

I sigh when I think of the pages and pages of argument here about whether it was subsidized or not.

Reading Parson's comments in full, he was implying that it is subsidized cos toshiba wants to shift players as fast as possible.

So, chapman agrees with him on that point. So, its not ALL lies, maybe the rest of it? :D

Why not spend $499 on a 360 core + HD DVD add-on drive? There is just as much logic in doing that as there is in picking up a PS3… probably more so since there are actually decent games on the 360.

In fairness to Parsons, his comments seem to be aimed at people like me who have little (or in my case) no interest in games but who want a lower priced BD player right now. For people in my demographic, the 360 + HD-DVD add-on drive is just lacking in too many areas to warrant consideration. My current system consists of a Sanyo front projector with an HDCP-compliant DVI input and an Onkyo receiver with HDMI switching. Both of these features would be wasted if I went with the 360 and add-on, but I make full use of them with my PS3. The fact that I also have an easily upgradable 20 Gb hard drive built in is icing on the cake. I've already used it to show downloaded HD movie trailers of Casino Royale and Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer before the main feature at movie parties. Everyone appreciated the attempt to mimic the "theater" experience.

I went to my local mall this afternoon in Manchester, NH. Checked in Game Stop -- no Wiis in stock but plenty of PS3 60GB consoles. The kid in the store stated that PS3 sales were very slow because of the price, but Wiis flew out as soon as they get stock.

I next checked BB, where they had a large sign on the PS3 display monitor stating that they had 60GB PS3's in stock, and to check with customer service. They also had 7 Samsung BD players in stock, and 4 of them were OPEN BOX RETURNS with stickers on them stating that an $80 instant gift card was included with the purchase! I guess they're selling well, huh?

On my way out, I saw a sign in the window of EB Games stating that PS3's were in stock. The store was empty.

My local Target in Hooksett, NH has had PS3's in stock for weeks, though I have never seen a Wii there at all. Anyone who thinks that this console is a big hit is completely delusional.

Odds of never seeing another "OMG MY LOCAL STORE HAS 1 MILLION PS3'S"


----slim to none---

Well, so is the PS3 subsidized and to say only Universal and the porn industry are exclusive to HD DVD was mean spirited, as well as his dismissing Toshibas hardware.

I believe the lies have to do with the BD generated FUD around lack of HD DVD hardware and most likely made up sales and shipping numbers. I for one don't believe any of their data. Looking at Amazon, the competition seems much closer and HD DVD hardware by and large is much better received than any of the BD standalone players.

I feel like dumping my Pio plasma and never buying another product with their brand on it. In future for sure I won't.

I think "cheap for a reason" means Toshiba has to subsidize the hd-dvd players to drive the hd-dvd format.

i also think this is what he meant. i just cannot say that as a top guy from BDA and Pioneer, his discursive technique is not that sharp :p

It just means we won't be seeing one from Pioneer any time soon. PS3 is definitely an awesome BR player, so I don't see how that's a bad recommendation.

he recommends PS3 because consumers wont see Pioneer BD players at $599. my point is, if he is pointing consumers to PS3, i doubt we will see standalone players at that price range .. anytime soon

The way I read his statement is that if you want to spend only $499, buy a PS3 and get a good Blu-ray player, don't spend the same $499 on a Toshiba and get HD-DVD.

This makes sense from his perspective as promotion chair of the Blu-ray Disc Association.

Agreed. I think everyone else is bringing some major fanboyism into it. All he's saying is "if all you have is $499, buy a PS3, not a Toshiba".

What else would he say, given his position within the BDA?

but people, with the $499 HD DVD player, you also get three free HD DVD of your choice. That would make the price for the player = $440. No? Some retailers are already selling the Toshiba players at as low as $430 plus free shipping.

A2 = Price : $ 429.95

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=NavBar&A=search&Q=&ci=12836

So why get PS3 again? and ohhh why get a ps3 when the drive can wear out when its used to play games?

Really, it's not very complicated. Pioneer doesn't need to sell any BD players to make money.

First Meeting of Blu-ray DiscTM Patent Holders Held (http://www.mpegla.com/news/n_06-07-20_pr.pdf)

(Denver, Colorado USA – 20 July 2006) – MPEG LA announced today that the first meeting of essential Blu-ray DiscTM patent owners, consisting of 17 companies, was held in Los Angeles on July 6-7 for the purpose of creating a joint license providing fair, reasonable, non-discriminatory access to essential patents, as an alternative to negotiating separate licenses. Participating companies included CyberLink Corporation; Dell Inc.; Hewlett-Packard Company; Hitachi Ltd.; Koninklijke Philips Electronics N.V.; LG Electronics Inc.; Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd. (Panasonic); Mitsubishi Electric Corporation; Pioneer Corporation; Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.; Sanyo Electric Co., Ltd.; Sharp Corporation; Sony Corporation; TDK Corporation; Victor Company of Japan, Ltd.; and Warner Home Video Inc.

but people, with the $499 HD DVD player, you also get three free HD DVD of your choice. That would make the price for the player = $440. No? Some retailers are already selling the Toshiba players at as low as $430 plus free shipping.

A2 = Price : $ 429.95

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=NavBar&A=search&Q=&ci=12836

So why get PS3 again? and ohhh why get a ps3 when the drive can wear out when its used to play games?

It only wears as much as you use it. If you use it primarily for movies, then the wear is equivalent to that of a standalone. Of course, you can also do a lot more on a PS3 than you could on a Toshi.

It only wears as much as you use it. If you use it primarily for movies, then the wear is equivalent to that of a standalone. Of course, you can also do a lot more on a PS3 than you could on a Toshi.

A lot more with the exception of up-converting SD-DVDs. The PS3 only does more for a movie fan if they currently have more PS3 games and BR Disks sitting around their house than SD-DVDs.

A lot more with the exception of up-converting SD-DVDs. The PS3 only does more for a movie fan if they currently have more PS3 games and BR Disks sitting around their house than SD-DVDs.

Well, a movie fan only needs one PS3 game to do more on a PS3 than on a Toshi. I understand that you feel upconverted SD DVDs are equivalent to HD DVDs, but I'm sure a lot of people would feel insulted by that on this very forum.

Funny thing about Pioneer. They make some of the best bang-for-your-buck DVD-R/RW burners out there, making Sonys DVD+R/RW format look pitful in comparison (inspite of its promises). Now, Pioneer is one of Blu-rays biggest manufacturers. Wow, talk about a turn around...

well pioneer laid off 2500 employees recently.
The company is having troubles obviously.
I have always liked pioneer gear and still do.
I have heard their car audio has taken a huge leap south in quality.
I install hometheater equipment here in australia and do some contract work for a company that also deals in quality audio systems for cars.I was told recently by them how bad pioneer has dropped.And they have dropped pioneer.
I think their management are the problem and quess who's up there.
I have seen personally how shoddy some of their own proffessional installations have been of late.I had to fix one recently.I think pioneer is slipping badly of late.

They brought out a top of the line reciever --valued in the thousands and went cheap on the speaker connecting terminals--couldnt use banana plugs to run thicker speaker cable which a high end reciever is manatory to use.These were the cheapest SCREW TERMINAL ones you get on the cheapest recievers---unbelievable--
guess the management made that decision too :(

Well, so is the PS3 subsidized and to say only Universal and the porn industry are exclusive to HD DVD was mean spirited, as well as his dismissing Toshibas hardware.

I believe the lies have to do with the BD generated FUD around lack of HD DVD hardware and most likely made up sales and shipping numbers. I for one don't believe any of their data. Looking at Amazon, the competition seems much closer and HD DVD hardware by and large is much better received than any of the BD standalone players.

I feel like dumping my Pio plasma and never buying another product with their brand on it. In future for sure I won't.

In the past, I was never a big fan of Toshiba. But I have to say, their behavior at present is restrained and civilized. Moreover, I have found their customer service personnel extremely polite and well-informed.

But the blu-ray spokesmen, on the other hand, lie, bluster, show contempt for consumers, misrepresent their competitors, and behave like adolescents. I have never read such childish tripe coming from executives.

My first piece of serious electronics (1967) was a used Sony reel-to-reel that I really liked. It had its own amp, and I used its inputs with a cheap Allied turntable. Later on, I admired Sony's stand against the TV networks when that company fought for consumers' rights to tape broadcast TV.

But the new Sony is a different beast: rootkit, name-brand arrogance (sitting on their laurels), uneven quality, studio buy-ups, invasive patents, and the like.

At present, I boycott companies that tick me off because of their corporate behavior. That includes Sony, Fox, and Disney. It would take too long to tell you what I think about Fox and Disney. Even if there were no format war, I wouldn't buy a cup of coffee from that bunch.

It would be unfortunate to have to add Pioneer and Panasonic (I have an XP30) to the list, but the blu-ray rhetoric may just tip me in that direction.

These guys are behaving like the kid in school who keeps blurting out stupid things and doesn't realize how stupid he sounds, probably because the other stupid kids in the class don't realize how stupid he sounds either.

Blu-ray is holding a number of studio cards in this card game. HD DVD is holding price/performance cards. I'll take Toshiba's poker face and quiet manner any day.

"Go buy a PS3!" Nope, not for me. At least when the Beta came out, I didn't have to listen to all this snake oil song and dance.

Game players are shying away from the PS3. Blu-ray movie fans are still buying it. The PS3 as blu-ray player crowd will not save Sony financially. They need the gamers. Sony has bet heavily on winning the video game market.

Expect the rhetoric from blu-ray to get even more strident. Pigs squeal when they get stuck. The lack of noise from HD DVD is a sign of strength, not of weakness -- except to the little boys who like to hear lots of noise and squealing and mistake that for "marketing."

I think what Andy was implying is that the HD-<a href="http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=0&k=dvd%20players" onmouseover="window.status='DVD players'; return true;" onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;">DVD players</a> are cheap for the reason that if they weren't, the lack of content would make them totally uncompetitive and it would die off in a matter of hours.
Cheap players are HD-DVDs main advantage.
That's exactly right. He's saying that Blu-ray does not need cheap standalone players to be competitive. The overwhelming CE and studio content advantage is incentive enough for people to invest in the more expensive Blu-ray hardware, and for those who can't/don't want to purchase expensive Blu-ray hardware, there is the PS3 option. His whole position is based on CONTENT advantage, not hardware differences in quality.

I, myself, went with the PS3 option because all the expensive Blu-ray hardware was/is incomplete. I have no problem paying the price to get good equipment, but I'm not going to pay top dollar for equipment that is only half-featured and will require a re-purchase in 12-18 months. The PS3 is upgradable and is actually the best Blu-ray option availible at the moment. In any sense, I just don't have much faith in the HD DVD format's chance of longevity. Unless HD DVD shows they can get Fox/Disney/Sony pictures on thier side, I'm going to stick with Blu-ray on my PS3. I do feel HD DVD is a fantastic value for the content that is availible. They've got great quality at great prices, they just need more exclusive studio support. Unfortunetly for us consumers, Blu-ray is in a power position where they can exercise their will. This will stand up until there is some sort of content revolution.

That's exactly right. He's saying that Blu-ray does not need cheap standalone players to be competitive. The overwhelming CE and studio content advantage is incentive enough for people to invest in the more expensive Blu-ray hardware, and for those who can't/don't want to purchase expensive Blu-ray hardware, there is the PS3 option. His whole position is based on CONTENT advantage, not hardware differences in quality.

What will the masses play all this wonderful content on? The PS3? Blu-ray needs inexpensive standalone players that are displayed in home theater departments, not game departments and game stores.

But maybe we should ask Parsons how many of his $1500 prototypes have been sold.

The squealing will really start when the cheap Chinese HD DVD machines show up at BB, CC, Wal-Mart, Target, and the like. Then blu-ray will talk about how much quality you get for a grand or two by buying blu-ray.

I am amazed that CE companies expect to compete without price/performance offerings.

Parsons is saying once again that Pioneer is willing to hold the door for Sony to lock down hi-def with the PS3.

It also indicates once again that the blu-ray companies are in collusion, rather than in competition with one another.

PS3 is just the inexpensive end of the blu-ray corporation.

Actually, it makes sense. Why should the other CE companies invest a dime when they can get Sony to do the heavy lifting.

One other thought, a prediction: The Pioneer drives in the Sony and Pioneer standalones may prove to be far more reliable than the proprietary blu-ray drives in the PS3. If that happens, within a year's time, "Go buy a PS3" could become a very bad joke. Sony has got to win the war before those drives start to break down. Of course, one could say the same about the NEC or Toshiba drives in the Toshiba machines. And the Lite-on HD DVD drives -- who knows what they will be like? However, if I were a betting man, I would put my money on HD DVD drives because of their simpler technology. The technically simpler is usually more durable than the technically complex.

What will the masses play all this wonderful content on? The PS3?
Nope. The masses will play Blu-rays on $100 standalones. The masses WON'T buy anything until prices are in that range. Seriously, we are (right now) in early adopter territory where price is less critical. When new technology is rolled out(across all industries), its expensive and restricted. Then, a short time later, those devices are obsolete in performance and extremely overpriced. This is going to happen with Blu-ray just as it did with DVD. Soon(within 3 yrs), there will be $299 players that outperform and out-feature current models. Parsons is stressing that a cheap Blu-ray player is simply not needed right now because the BDA is confident in their studio advantage, confident to the point of being cocky. They are, essentially, mocking Toshiba by saying that we've got a gaming console for $500 that can do Blu on the cheap, but our standalones command top dollar.

When new technology is rolled out(across all industries), its expensive and restricted. Then, a short time later, those devices are obsolete in performance and extremely overpriced. This is going to happen with Blu-ray just as it did with DVD. Soon(within 3 yrs), there will be $299 players that outperform and out-feature current models. Parsons is stressing that a cheap Blu-ray player is simply not needed right now because the BDA is confident in their studio advantage, confident to the point of being cocky. They are, essentially, mocking Toshiba by saying that we've got a gaming console for $500 that can do Blu on the cheap, but our standalones command top dollar.

Good post. Given blu-ray's own predictions about price reductions, we can anticipate that if they win the format war, none of us will live long enough to see the $100 blu-ray player. In that case, don't sell your DVDs. :)

So why get PS3 again? and ohhh why get a ps3 when the drive can wear out when its used to play games?

The fact that you keep repeating this as if it's fact is extremely shady and a testament to your "fanboyism".

Nobody knows how durable any blue laser drive will turn out to be. But it does seem likely that, when the warranty runs out, internal PS3 blu-ray drives will cost more that external Xbox add-on drives to replace. And both of these will cost more to replace than standard DVD drives. That could be an argument for having a DVD drive to do non blu-ray games in the PS3. Nothing lasts forever, especially under heavy use. Or pehaps Sony could make an add-on DVD drive for the PS3.

To return to the Andy Parsons project: If he seriously wants the less affluent among us to buy the PS3, perhaps Pioneer should pay for a PS3 display endcap in the av department at BB and other stores, which leads me to ask why Sony has not asked for such displays in home theater departments already. Why put the unit in the game department, when it is a standalone unit, according to some users? Put it next to Sony, Samsung, Pioneer, and Panasonic standalone displays at Magnolia.

They are, essentially, mocking Toshiba by saying that we've got a gaming console for $500 that can do Blu on the cheap, but our standalones command top dollar.

Except their standalones don't command top dollar, because no one is buying them at that price.

To return to the Andy Parsons project: If he seriously wants the less affluent among us to buy the PS3, perhaps Pioneer should pay for a PS3 display endcap in the av department at BB and other stores, which leads me to ask why Sony has not asked for such displays in home theater departments already. Why put the unit in the game department, when it is a standalone unit, according to some users? Put it next to Sony, Samsung, Pioneer, and Panasonic standalone displays at Magnolia.
I have said this repeatedly in the past. All of the marketing Sony has done is actually hurting them as very few can see what the PS3 can do as a blu ray player.

I have said this repeatedly in the past. All of the marketing Sony has done is actually hurting them as very few can see what the PS3 can do as a blu ray player.

Even when they display the PS3 in game departments, they display it playing games. How is the ordinary person to know how well it plays blu-ray movies?

Anyone who has bought a PS3 will tell you that there is a lot of material covering the BD movie capability including rebates for movies in the box.

At the online store there are free Bluray trailers to download.

I doubt many purchasers are not aware of the capability.

I happen to own the A1, and it is the BEST piece of electronics equipment I have ever gotten for $499. It's built like a tank, and its performance is excellent. This pathetic rhetoric is really getting old from the BD camp. They should concentrate more on the consumer's needs and less on their propaganda crusade.I have an HD-A1 also and consider it one of the best deals I've gotten. However, if I had to choose between it and my PS3, I wouldn't have to even think about it that much. I would get rid of the HD-A1 if forced to choose. And that goes for the HD-A2 that is on its way also.

Some people ask me for advice about what to buy and I try to give them the best advice I can. Back in August or September that was pretty easy. Mostly either to wait or to buy the HD-A1. Now it is much tougher for me to give them advice that I think is good. I'm starting to lean toward the PS3 for some of them though. Studio support doesn't look like it is going to change soon on either side to me. The PS3 also supports 1080p without the Chroma Upsampling Error that the HD-A1 and HD-A2 have with their 1080i output. I expect the PS3 to continue getting updates from Sony because they need to keep it pretty current just for their business model. It is much faster than the HD-A1. While the HD-A2 should take care of most of that and I pretty much recommend the HD-A2 over the HD-A1 for those buying new, for a lot of people I would recommend the PS3 over the HD-A2 (as I said, I should be getting my HD-A2 soon).

Now, if Universal announces "Jaws", "Jurassic Park", etc. for release soon to defend against 3 major studios on the other side, then maybe I'll lean back toward the HD-A2 as a recommendation more of the time, but so far I don't see them doing that.

--Darin

Now, if Universal announces "Jaws", "Jurassic Park", etc. for release soon to defend against 3 major studios on the other side, then maybe I'll lean back toward the HD-A2 as a recommendation more of the time, but so far I don't see them doing that.

--Darin

It doesn't qualify as an announcement but I did see an ad tonight on UniHD for "Jaws". The ad made a big deal out of this being the first time "Jaws" has been seen in HD.

I guess it is safe to assume that Universal has at least completed the encode.

It doesn't qualify as an announcement but I did see an ad tonight on UniHD for "Jaws". The ad made a big deal out of this being the first time "Jaws" has been seen in HD.

I guess it is safe to assume that Universal has at least completed the encode.Thanks. I'll try to TIVO that one. When I see things listed in HD like this I figure it ups their chances of coming to these formats.

BTW: This one is listed at 2.35:1. If I remember right, UniversalHD doesn't tend to do OAR.

--Darin

The entire argument is nonsense. What do you expect the BluRay camp to say, "Well, they've beaten us alright. More features, better quality, lower cost - hell, we give up!"

Of course not. They will look for every single excuse in the world to twist some statement to their advantage.

Yes, HD-DVD is Cheaper for a reason.

1) It is MUCH less expensive to manufacture as it is essentially a DVD drive with a Blue Laser. The optics (the most expensive part) are no where near as complex as in BluRay.

2) The systems are built with many readily available parts (Pentium-based) as opposed to SOC which needs to be recouped initially.

3) There is not heavy competition for HD-DVD players. If you want one, Toshiba knows whos your gonna get. Ergo they have sold far more players than all of the BluRay stand-alones combined!

It's that easy.

Well, a movie fan only needs one PS3 game to do more on a PS3 than on a Toshi. I understand that you feel upconverted SD DVDs are equivalent to HD DVDs, but I'm sure a lot of people would feel insulted by that on this very forum.

I don’t feel that up-converted SD-DVDs are as good as HD-DVDs; I never said anything like that and there is thus no insult to be inferred from my statement. What I said was that a person in the market for a stand alone, next generation DVD player is different from a person in the market for a next-generation game system.

I think you are getting movie fans and game fans confused. There are very few videogame fans that don’t also enjoy movies, but there are millions of film fans that don’t play videogames. My grandmother, parents and most of my siblings could care less about playing games on what they consider a film watching device. If the ability to play games was a big selling point for DVD players Nuon would’ve been much more successful.

The ability to play additional media can be a selling point for a videogame system (note the relationship between the PS2 and DVD market penetration in Japan) and sometimes it can be a major selling point. But the inverse is not true for stand-alone media players. Film buffs, video freaks and the general public will buy a stand-alone Blu-Ray player based on its merits for their needs. For most those needs would include playing Blu-Ray disks as well as up-converting their existing DVD collection. The PS3 simply does a crappy job of the later at this point. For a film-buff the games, Linux and on-line access of the PS3 would be nifty features, but none of that matters if their films look like crap.

Even when they display the PS3 in game departments, they display it playing games. How is the ordinary person to know how well it plays blu-ray movies?

Good point, my boss at work bought one for his son and was asking us whether he spoiled him or not. I told him at least it could play Blu-Ray movies. His response:

Is that good?

I just said yeah and went on about my business.

For most those needs would include playing Blu-Ray disks as well as up-converting their existing DVD collection. The PS3 simply does a crappy job of the later at this point. .

I think members of this forum place too much emphasis on the up-converting function. Sure everyone reading this realizes how much better it can be. I just don't think J6P is gonna go "Yeah I like Spiderman 1,2,3 but that Blu-ray can't up-convert my old DVD's so I'm not gonna buy it." That just my opinion, but once you start weighing all current options in the market I don't believe that up-conversion has a greater draw than content. And this of course is only if J6P absolutely had to buy something today. More than likely, lack of up-conversion, if J6P is even aware of it, will just prolong the format war.

Note: I'm only referring to the PS3 as it is currently the only player who can match the price point of the Toshibas for similar features.

I think members of this forum place too much emphasis on the up-converting function. Sure everyone reading this realizes how much better it can be. I just don't think J6P is gonna go "Yeah I like Spiderman 1,2,3 but that Blu-ray can't up-convert my old DVD's so I'm not gonna buy it." That just my opinion, but once you start weighing all current options in the market I don't believe that up-conversion has a greater draw than content. And this of course is only if J6P absolutely had to buy something today. More than likely, lack of up-conversion, if J6P is even aware of it, will just prolong the format war.

Note: I'm only referring to the PS3 as it is currently the only player who can match the price point of the Toshibas for similar features.


You said it content is king. So what content is more important to J6P than the content (his current SD-DVD collection) that he already owns? He will notice that the little $50 up-converting DVD player from Wal-Mart does a better job at up-converting than his PS3. His wife will ask why they have two devices that play DVDs in the living room. After Joe explains that the PS3 can’t make their regular DVDs look as good as the $50 Wal-Mart special. Then his wife will ride his ass about spending $600 on a fancy toy that does less than the $50 DVD Player they had.

You said it content is king. So what content is more important to J6P than the content (his current SD-DVD collection) that he already owns? He will notice that the little $50 up-converting DVD player from Wal-Mart does a better job at up-converting than his PS3. His wife will ask why they have two devices that play DVDs in the living room. After Joe explains that the PS3 can’t make their regular DVDs look as good as the $50 Wal-Mart special. Then his wife will ride his ass about spending $600 on a fancy toy that does less than the $50 DVD Player they had.

Considering the PS3 doesn't do a horrible job with DVDs and the fact that the jump between standard dvds and upscaled DVDs won't be much in the eyes of J6P, I disagree. Plus, I don't actually believe the average consumer owns an upconverting player yet. I think a lot of people still own regular DVD players which is what the PS3 is, at the present time.

Is it "disk" or is it "disc"??

I always thought disk was an abbreviation for diskette.

Here's the wiki link..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disk

-Byrd

Considering the PS3 doesn't do a horrible job with DVDs and the fact that the jump between standard dvds and upscaled DVDs won't be much in the eyes of J6P, I disagree. Plus, I don't actually believe the average consumer owns an upconverting player yet. I think a lot of people still own regular DVD players which is what the PS3 is, at the present time.

I agree that J6P will probably not yet own an up-converting DVD player. Let me also be clear that I don’t think J6P will be buying a next-gen DVD player or a next –gen DVD player either.

Most PS3 sales will come from Sony fans and hardcore gamers until the price of the PS3 drops below $300. $300 will also be the magic number that Blu-Ray and HD-DVD Players will need to reach to generate a respectable user base in the US.

J6P will not even begin to look at HD content until he has an HDTV. If we consider J6P to be a middle-class guy, and I think we do, he probably hasn’t purchased an HDTV yet.

Don't most good and/or new HDTVs upscale 480p?

I don't doubt that PS3 will add this feature, prob in the "big deal" march update, but I can't say it matters to me one way or another. SD is SD, HD is HD. If can't tell the difference, sit closer. Don't care much for digital zoom on a camera and I refuse to blow up an image when printing.