Washington, DC / Baltimore, MD - HDTV [Text View] - Page 46

chap_gfva

12-26-09, 07:36 PM

Hi all -

I haven't been getting any TVGOS data from WUSA since 12/17. Does that jive with other people's experience at the moment? Before it went down completely, I had the ABC with no listings for a week or so.

Anyway, for the heck of it I decided to rescan the channels, since I haven't done that in a long time. It came up with a couple weird things I've never seen before:

0.0 data 1
33.8 data 1

Anyone seen those "channels" or have any idea what they mean? You can tune to them, you just get a blank screen. Just for the heck of it, I checked if there were TVGOS packets coming in on either one (of course, no).

I have a Sony DHG500 DVR and I too have lost all listing data since (about) 12/17/2009 my last day with any listings just fell off the guide last night. Simply resetting zip code has not resolved problem. This DVR has worked for 5+ years -- and is still working in every other respect. I am assuming that this is a problem with the feed coming from WUSA? I seem to recall an episode a couple of years ago (approx) where the listing went out for several days as well.

I have not rescanned the channels -- but did try the forced reset (zip code = 00000 followed by entering my correct zip code an hour later) and am currently waiting to see if this resolves the matter overnight.

Has anyone already checked with Rovi Corp to see if they can remotely debug (better yet solve this problem)?

TV without a DVR is becoming unbearbale (commercials -- arrrgh)!!

ETGorm

12-26-09, 10:38 PM

mkfs

12-26-09, 11:38 PM

Whatever is going on with my DTX 9950 is back. It can not see 20's EPG, and finds WRC at 48-3/4/5 as it did before. My Insignia does find the EPG. I think I hear Twilight Zone music.

xbgamer

12-27-09, 03:03 AM

otacool

12-27-09, 06:00 AM

ACW112983

12-27-09, 07:53 AM

So DC and Mont. CO have new HD channels for Comcast...what about Northern VA?

E55 KEV

12-27-09, 09:31 AM

I also have lost TVGOS in Washington DC since about December 17, 2009.

I reinstalled and two new channels were scanned: a "data 1" channel and a "data" channel. These two channels are not viewable and TVGOS still was not functioning Over-the-Air on my DTVPal DVR.

I noticed I lost TVGOS on 12/19/2009. I emailed WUSA and got this reply:

"Please contact TVGOS customer support at CE_Customer_Support@rovicorp.com or 1-800-386-7380. TVGOS is responsible for the maintenance and administration of their data."

I forwarded the email to Rovi. No word yet.

PaulGo

12-27-09, 10:10 AM

When did WETA start broadcasting in 720p? I was going through some of the Christmas stuff I captured on Friday and my files all show WETA's HD channel as broadcasting in 720. Arent they supposed to be doing 1080i?

It has been at least six months ago that I noticed it, It makes sense since they are also broadcasting three SD channels. Because of the poor HD quality I suggested this to them over a year ago along with eliminating one of the SD channels. I doubt my suggestion caused them to do it but 720p is easier to combine when broadcasting so many channels.

dms_dc

12-27-09, 11:05 AM

I noticed I lost TVGOS on 12/19/2009. I emailed WUSA and got this reply:

"Please contact TVGOS customer support at CE_Customer_Support@rovicorp.com or 1-800-386-7380. TVGOS is responsible for the maintenance and administration of their data."

I forwarded the email to Rovi. No word yet.

Looks like we're all in the same boat with this setup. I sent Rovi an e-mail as well.

chap_gfva

12-27-09, 11:19 AM

Looks like we're all in the same boat with this setup. I sent Rovi an e-mail as well.

Given that both cable-card based and OTA DVRs (and TVs) are all experiencing the same loss of on-screen TVGOS data, it certainly seems logical that the source of the problem is the embedded TVGOS data feed (or lack thereof) coming from WUSA (not sure what else could it be at this point?).

I will email Rovi as well. Maybe a lot of emails will prompt them to look into this...?

It seems curious that that Rovi doesn't have a mechanism to continuously monitor their installed equipment base (i.e., other than waiting for emails from their customer base)?

Steve_AA_Co_MD

12-27-09, 10:32 PM

E55 KEV

12-28-09, 07:43 AM

I changed my zip code to an Anne Arundel zip and now my TVGOS data gets populated by WJZ's data (which is up and running). I have been using WUSA's for years, but WUSA hasn't passed TVGOS data in a couple of weeks now.

Edit: I had my TV Guide originally set for 20151 (Chantilly, VA) since I mainly use my antenna for the channels that I can't get in HD from Comcast in Anne Arundel.

I tried doing a G* test using Baltimore's WJZ channel 13.1 and I got nothing new. The ATSC Test: Fails with channel 13.1 G* test. My DVR setup will not bring in channel 13.1 reception. I did not change the zip. What Anne Arundel zip did you use?

Iggier

12-28-09, 08:14 AM

I changed my zip code to an Anne Arundel zip and now my TVGOS data gets populated by WJZ's data (which is up and running).

This is a great solution, but it doesn't work for those of us in DC and the nearby 'burbs whose reception can't pull Baltimore stations (specifically WJZ).

Interestingly though, from Montgomery County on my OTA-only set up, I can get WMAR-DT, but no other stations from that region. Too bad as I miss MPT 22.

I would hope that everyone who has lost TVGOS data in DC (going on more than two weeks now) emails Rovi.

Steve_AA_Co_MD

12-28-09, 08:41 AM

I tried doing a G* test using Baltimore's WJZ channel 13.1 and I got nothing new. The ATSC Test: Fails with channel 13.1 G* test. My DVR setup will not bring in channel 13.1 reception. I did not change the zip. What Anne Arundel zip did you use?

I use 21401 (Annapolis) which makes my TVGOS pull from WJZ. WJZ also has the listings for most of the DC channels. I had to manually edit/add the DC channels in from the long list of disabled channels.

E55 KEV

12-28-09, 09:34 AM

I use 21401 (Annapolis) which makes my TVGOS pull from WJZ. WJZ also has the listings for most of the DC channels. I had to manually edit/add the DC channels in from the long list of disabled channels.

Thanks, I will try it. No sure if it will work since I can not pickup 13.1 programming. Can you get 13.1 programming from Chantilly?

dms_dc

12-28-09, 10:30 AM

Unfortunately I can not pick up Baltimore stations. Nice option for those who can.

I got the expected reply back from WUSA:

I have alerted TVGOS that they are experiencing an issue. Unfortunately, WUSA has no maintenance or administrative capabilities for the TVGOS stream. I'm hoping the problem can be resolved this week..

Steve_AA_Co_MD

12-28-09, 10:51 AM

Thanks, I will try it. No sure if it will work since I can not pickup 13.1 programming. Can you get 13.1 programming from Chantilly?

I'm actually near Annapolis. I had my TVGOS set up with a Chantilly zip code so I could trick my tv to get DC listings vice Baltimore.

A couple of years ago, WJZ's TVGOS listings included Pittsburgh and Cleveland channels and my Sony Bravia was calling DC's channel 9 WCPO among other annoying anomalies.

Now that I'm back on WJZ's listings, those problems seem to have been corrected. I plan to stay with the Baltimore provided TVGOS listings since WUSA has let this issue happen for more than 2 weeks.

Trip in VA

12-28-09, 11:13 AM

WUSA has let this issue happen for more than 2 weeks.

I will once again point out that Rovi controls the TVGOS gear, not WUSA.

The same thing could just as easily happen at WJZ.

- Trip

Iggier

12-28-09, 11:46 AM

Given that both cable-card based and OTA DVRs (and TVs) are all experiencing the same loss of on-screen TVGOS data, it certainly seems logical that the source of the problem is the embedded TVGOS data feed (or lack thereof) coming from WUSA (not sure what else could it be at this point?).

I will email Rovi as well. Maybe a lot of emails will prompt them to look into this...?

It seems curious that that Rovi doesn't have a mechanism to continuously monitor their installed equipment base (i.e., other than waiting for emails from their customer base)?

Rovi replied to my email re: WUSA dead data stream with the following, and I quote:

An update was recently made in this area and we are wondering if the TV Guide has returned. If it is not, please reset the TV Guide; to do this you will need to go to set up with in the TV Guide, hit the down arrow once, and type in 653274147 (won't see these numbers on the screen). The TV Guide will disappear and the unit may restart. After this you will need to leave the TV off from 11:45pm - 6:00am. If you are still having issues, please provide us with the following information:

Cable Provider:

Zip Code:

Model Number:

Set up (Cable Ready, Cable Box, Cable Card):

Thank you,
CE Tech Support

I ran the reset process and there's been some progress. No listings yet, but three of the four check-off items on my Sony's TVGOS status page are completed and I am only awaiting the next transmission of programming data. TVGOS diagnostic screens indicate that host channel has reappeared too.

E55 KEV

12-28-09, 02:40 PM

An update was recently made in this area and we are wondering if the TV Guide has returned. If it is not, please reset the TV Guide; to do this you will need to go to set up with in the TV Guide, hit the down arrow once, and type in 653274147 (won't see these numbers on the screen). The TV Guide will disappear and the unit may restart.

I got the same email today from Rovi. But I had noticed correct clock and some listings before I opened the email. So I will wait to do the 653 option since things are coming back.

I have never heard of this '653' menu? Is it a new support menu number?

Iggier

12-28-09, 03:37 PM

I got the same email today from Rovi. But I had noticed correct clock and some listings before I opened the email. So I will wait to do the 653 option since things are coming back.

I have never heard of this '653' menu? Is it a new support menu number?

The reset worked. It took a few hours for everything to populate, but the grid and all listings have returned in full. I'm tempted to email Rovi's reset email to WUSA9 so they can instruct viewers.

I have to wonder how many other viewers are experiencing this problem and are clueless as to how to proceed :eek:

Marcus Carr

12-28-09, 03:51 PM

I see that "Ellen" is in HD on WBAL. Not sure when it started since I stopped checking almost two months ago.

chap_gfva

12-28-09, 04:21 PM

I got the same email today from Rovi. But I had noticed correct clock and some listings before I opened the email. So I will wait to do the 653 option since things are coming back.

I have never heard of this '653' menu? Is it a new support menu number?
Take a look at this website -- it is no longer being maintained but it does provide a nice summary for a couple of the diagnostic screens, including the 653274147 diagnostic screen.

spiffspace.com/sonydvr.html

FYI: My Host Station ID has now been repopulated (it was blank yesterday) -- and my system time came back this morning, so I'm planning on waiting a day to see if the TVGOS starts repopulating (i.e., before I start performing any resets on my DVR).

chap_gfva

12-28-09, 04:32 PM

Take a look at this website -- it is no longer being maintained but it does provide a nice summary for a couple of the diagnostic screens, including the 653274147 diagnostic screen.

spiffspace.com/sonydvr.html

FYI: My Host Station ID has now been repopulated (it was blank yesterday) -- and my system time came back this morning, so I'm planning on waiting a day to see if the TVGOS starts repopulating (i.e., before I start performing any resets on my DVR).
I should probably have mentioned, the "Host Chan" field for the Wash DC metro area should read (1:0-9) -- for the analog WUSA station.

This diagnostic data is accessed using the 753159852 diagnostic code.

See info below from the "spiffSpace website"...

From spiffspace.com/sonydvr.html:
The TVGOS diagnostic/info menu: This can be accessed by pressing <GUIDE>, then moving the cursor up to the SETUP menu item on the top bar. Press <DOWN>, then 753159852. This gives you a series of screens that show info like Host Channel, VBI info, and numerous other pages of system info. One of the most useful screens is accessed by immediately pressing <RIGHT> after entering this "753..." menu. This page shows you the Host Channel (among other things).

E55 KEV

12-28-09, 04:36 PM

I should probably have mentioned, the "Host Chan" field for the Wash DC metro area should read (1:0-9) -- for the analog WUSA station.

Why the analog station instead of 9-1?

chap_gfva

12-28-09, 04:55 PM

Well I should have said ... My "Host Chan" field on my Sony DHG-HDD500 DVR currently reads 1:0-9 -- and it was completely blank yesterday.

I probably shouldn't presuppose what it "should read" until I see TVGOS data coming back.

PS: I'm not sure what it read before Dec 17th (start of the TVGOS outage).

chap_gfva

12-28-09, 09:23 PM

As of 8 PM today I have started to receive (sporadic) updated TVGOS programming on a few channels (the first updates my DVR has displayed in 10 days). My DVR has only been off for short periods of time today so I'm not surprised by the limited updates (a few stations have updated listings for today and day 8) -- and system time is now correct.

Looks like WUSA's TVGOS server may finally be back up and running.

dms_dc

12-28-09, 11:02 PM

The reset worked. It took a few hours for everything to populate, but the grid and all listings have returned in full. I'm tempted to email Rovi's reset email to WUSA9 so they can instruct viewers.

I have to wonder how many other viewers are experiencing this problem and are clueless as to how to proceed :eek:

I got the email from Rovi today as well. Tonight I checked and I have partially filled out listings over 8 days (but not fully), and my host channel and flags are set normally.

Are you saying that after doing the reset, you got *full* listings, every day fully populated with no "no listings" sprinkled around, for the full 8 days?

I hesitate to do a reset and possibly lose the grid for a week or two like happened to me before, if I don't really have to.

I am also concerned that, like someone else noted, I am currently not receiving any packets on the ATSC slicer screen. So I don't know if they are now sending nothing at all except during scheduled downloads or if it came back up and went back down or .......

rkolsen

12-29-09, 03:48 AM

I see that "Ellen" is in HD on WBAL. Not sure when it started since I stopped checking almost two months ago.

It's been like that for about two months. Once in a while an SD episode "usually a rerun" pops in the mix though.

Iggier

12-29-09, 07:04 AM

Are you saying that after doing the reset, you got *full* listings, every day fully populated with no "no listings" sprinkled around, for the full 8 days?

The grid is fully populated in terms of channels, time increments and listings. However, after checking it out early this morning (and the set was off during the overnight hours), only 1.5 days worth of program listings appear. I have no idea whether future transmissions will increase the number of programmed days.

Marcus Carr

12-29-09, 10:14 AM

It's been like that for about two months. Once in a while an SD episode "usually a rerun" pops in the mix though.

Figures it started right after I stopped checking.

chap_gfva

12-29-09, 03:27 PM

The grid is fully populated in terms of channels, time increments and listings. However, after checking it out early this morning (and the set was off during the overnight hours), only 1.5 days worth of program listings appear. I have no idea whether future transmissions will increase the number of programmed days.

The TVGOS data stream only populates selected days into the future w/ each daily update.

See paragraph 2.1.2 of the following link:

http://www.spiffspace.com/sonydvr.html

So getting a partially filled programming guide is to be expected -- it can take up to a week to fully fill in the data gaps. If you have today and tomorrow then all is probably good.

nottenst

12-29-09, 05:17 PM

A Comcast technician came in and appears to have fixed out feed. A few years ago a technician put an amplifier in our system in order to boost the signal so we could get things working properly on our TVs - especially the HDTV. It appears that a few weeks ago they must have made some adjustment to main box outside and our amplifier isn't needed anymore. In fact, it was boosting the errors so much that we were having serious problems with the TV on a cable box. So, the end results of the visit was that he removed the amplifier, redid some cable ends and now things appear to work.

One thing he mentioned was that on April 15, they are going to flip a switch and the only channels available via QAM direct from the cable outlet will be ABC, NBC, CBS, and FOX. We will need a box for all other channels. They'll provide one or two boxes for "free" and charge $1 or $2/month for any additional ones.

E55 KEV

12-29-09, 05:25 PM

AOne thing he mentioned was that on April 15, they are going to flip a switch and the only channels available via QAM direct from the cable outlet will be ABC, NBC, CBS, and FOX. We will need a box for all other channels. They'll provide one or two boxes for "free" and charge $1 or $2/month for any additional ones.

Oh well, I will be losing my free cable channels, which I rarely look at. :D I have Comcast internet service only.

djp952

12-29-09, 07:03 PM

tripleM

12-30-09, 02:48 AM

bfdtv

12-30-09, 02:55 AM

So Loudoun Comcast flipped the switch @ my parent's house & now they need digital converter boxes to get their expanded 'analog' lineup.
However, by using these boxes, they have no HD via clear QAM for the locals or PBS.

Is there anything my folks can do to regain the local HD besides using an antenna?If the TV has an internal QAM tuner, you could split the cable coax and run on line to the TV. Switching between the cable box and the TV tuner may be too much trouble for your parents (it would be for mine). In that case, the alternative would be to rent the HDTV STB from Comcast; that should add $5-10/mo to their bill.

aaronwt

12-30-09, 07:51 AM

It has been at least six months ago that I noticed it, It makes sense since they are also broadcasting three SD channels. Because of the poor HD quality I suggested this to them over a year ago along with eliminating one of the SD channels. I doubt my suggestion caused them to do it but 720p is easier to combine when broadcasting so many channels.

WETA looks nothing like it used to. Recently I found my hard drive with HD recordings from WETA in 2001. Those recordings look so much better than anything they've broadcast in the last few years.

nottenst

12-30-09, 10:33 AM

Surely PBS, My and WB (perhaps ION depending on where you are) are also remaining ClearQAM, right? I'm not being facetious, I watch for this stuff for my friends with Comcast and need to let them know if only the "big four" are remaining unencrypted.

edit: Of course I don't "need" to, wrong word ... "want" to.I didn't ask him about the other stations, but I would guess that one PBS station plus those others would remain. Still you never know. By tripleM's message it seems they've already done it in Loudon and PBS is available. Unfortunately, as well, if you get their box to get the other stations then you lose the free HD on the major network ones.

E55 KEV

12-30-09, 02:20 PM

Oh well, I will be losing my free cable channels, which I rarely look at. :D I have Comcast internet service only.

These are the HD networks I get with QAM tuner and no cable box in DC:

ABC
A&E
CBS
CW
FOX
ION
NBC
MY20
PBS
Versus

knnirs

12-30-09, 03:13 PM

So Loudoun Comcast flipped the switch @ my parent's house & now they need digital converter boxes to get their expanded 'analog' lineup.
However, by using these boxes, they have no HD via clear QAM for the locals or PBS.

Is there anything my folks can do to regain the local HD besides using an antenna?

You could split the coax cable and use a remote controlled cable switch to switch the TV from the Comcast box to the direct cable and use the internel TV QAM tuner. Radio Shack has such a switch.

mdviewer25

12-30-09, 04:48 PM

These are the HD networks I get with QAM tuner and no cable box in DC:

ABC
A&E
CBS
CW
FOX
ION
NBC
MY20
PBS
Versus

exact same HD channels here in Prince George's too

derek

12-31-09, 09:26 AM

Looks like WUSA's TVGOS server may finally be back up and running.

As of last night I still wasn't getting VBI data on my Sony DVR (WUSA-DT via FIOS.) Anyone else confirm getting vbi/atsc slicer updates?

tripleM

01-01-10, 05:29 PM

You could split the coax cable and use a remote controlled cable switch to switch the TV from the Comcast box to the direct cable and use the internel TV QAM tuner. Radio Shack has such a switch.

Thanks to u & bdftv for the info.

dms_dc

01-02-10, 01:13 PM

As of last night I still wasn't getting VBI data on my Sony DVR (WUSA-DT via FIOS.) Anyone else confirm getting vbi/atsc slicer updates?

I am finally showing ATSC slicer packets coming in via OTA from WUSA as of 1 pm today.

My sequence has been something like this:
- no packets since 12/18, eventually bricked
- after Rovi claimed was fixed, checked and saw full grid with partial listings over 8 days
- host channel and host flags were all set normally
- no packets seen coming in on ATSC slicer screen over any random checks since Rovi supposedly fixed the stream
- checked this morning and clock was wrong, host channel was gone, and looks like it had done a reset of its own - all counters were reset to 0
- checked again around 1 pm and clock was reset, and finally packets are showing incrementing on ATSC slicer

Right now I appear to have full listings across all days, with data coming in and clock set.

Host channel is still blank, and host flags are 0xc68. The only thing I know from that is that since it reset, no timezone packet has come in.

On the VBI info screen, everything is 0 or n/a except for ClkSet packets.

For whatever all that is worth....

Hunter68

01-02-10, 03:36 PM

Hi all,

I need someone to install a new HDTV antenna for my locals. Anyone know of a good service company to use out my way? I plan on using Windows 7 media center. I bought the Happauge 2250, also I was looking at this antenna...Outdoor Ultra Long-Range Digital TV (DTV) Antenna Clearstream 4

Any other thoughts would be appreicated. I currently have Directv and will get rid of them. I can't see paying 90.00 per month for the next 30 years when we don't watch much tv. :)

steelerhater

01-02-10, 04:00 PM

For me, the increase in power at WUSA should stabilize their signal here. Generally, I can currently get solid reception, but there are times during PT that I get audio drop-outs and horizontal loss of picture segments. They don't coincide.

I can now set my antenna, so that I receive WMAR, WJLA, WUSA, WBAL, WDCA, WUTB, & WNUV at the same time. Granted they're not all 100%, 100% of the time, but it's close.

Hi,
You appear to be getting WJLA and WUSA washington channels at your PA location. Do you get WTTG and WRC as well? I ask because I'm in Baltimore and get WTTG and WRC strong but cannot even acquire WJLA and WUSA signals, which I used to get up until about a year ago or so. I have a good Winegard mounted on the roof of my house which is on a hill so I am puzzled that I cannto get WJLA and WUSA anymore. Like to know your set up if you can get these two stations.
Thanks.

afiggatt

01-03-10, 05:48 PM

Hi,
You appear to be getting WJLA and WUSA washington channels at your PA location. Do you get WTTG and WRC as well? I ask because I'm in Baltimore and get WTTG and WRC strong but cannot even acquire WJLA and WUSA signals, which I used to get up until about a year ago or so. I have a good Winegard mounted on the roof of my house which is on a hill so I am puzzled that I cannto get WJLA and WUSA anymore. Like to know your set up if you can get these two stations.
What type of Winegard antenna do you have? WJLA 7 and WUSA 9 used to digitally broadcast on UHF, but flash cut to their analog upper VHF channels last June.

WJLA 7 is currently broadcasting on VHF 7 at 30 kW. WUSA 9 is currently broadcasting at only 12.6. kW, but has filed an application to experimentally increase to 52 kW. Which, interestingly enough, appears to have been granted by the FCC on December 23. From 16 miles out, I have no problems getting WJLA 7 or WUSA 9, even with a Silver Sensor UHF indoor antenna (well, from the upper floor anyway. Have not tried it elsewhere). Also, checking the FCC application database, WJLA 7 filed for an increase to 52 kW as well, but the FCC has not acted on the WJLA application yet. I have not been monitoring the FCC filings, so I missed that.

Now only if WBAL 11 and WJZ 13 in Baltimore would file for increased power over what they currently run at. The problem with WJZ 13 is that they are stuck with a directional antenna pattern which clobbers reception to the west because of interference concerns with WWPX Ion 60 which is on VHF 12.

Trip in VA

01-03-10, 06:29 PM

WJLA is running at 52 kW and has been for some time.

- Trip

aaronwt

01-03-10, 06:44 PM

WJLA is running at 52 kW and has been for some time.

- Trip

Has WUSA increased their strength yet? I didn't notice any difference at my girlfirends house this weekend so I'm guessing they haven't. She will be really pleased when they do increase their power since it's the worst station for her.

Trip in VA

01-03-10, 07:03 PM

It's not a blanket permit to increase power. It's permission to increase power in conjunction with interference testing. They'll be making sure it doesn't trash WBPH-9 or WGAL-8.

- Trip

Trip in VA

01-03-10, 07:08 PM

Question: Can anyone receive a clean signal out of W08EE-D in Martinsburg? I was passing through today and at the rest stop by the Maryland border I had my VHF bowtie on the roof of the car which got W08EE-D up to 90%, but TSReader was reporting more than 3,000 continuity errors per second and the MPEG decoder kept crashing. The one data capture I got that wasn't a complete loss is also badly corrupted.

WWPX-DT 12 decoded cleanly at 70% on the rabbit ears in the car. I really don't get it.

- Trip

fmsjr

01-03-10, 07:36 PM

Falcon_77

01-03-10, 09:20 PM

Now only if WBAL 11 and WJZ 13 in Baltimore would file for increased power over what they currently run at.

WBAL is currently at 26.6kW, right? This filing indicates that they are.

https://licensing.fcc.gov/cdbs/CDBS_Attachment/getattachment.jsp?appn=101350383&qnum=5350&copynum=1&exhcnum=1

Hearst submits that while the proposed continued operation with 26.6 kW is theoretically predicted to cause interference in excess of the 0.5 percent limit in Section 73.616(e) of the Commission's Rules with respect to certain stations, no such actual interference from WBAL- TV's 26.6 kW STA operation has been reported.

dewster1977

01-03-10, 10:40 PM

afiggatt

01-03-10, 11:59 PM

WBAL is currently at 26.6kW, right? This filing indicates that they are.
Yes. However, even after WBAL increased to 26.6 kW, I still can't get the station reliably with the Winegard upper VHF antenna in the attic. I have obstructions in the direction of Baltimore with the top of other townhouses and a ridge line. The Baltimore UHF stations come in ok, I think the VHF signals are not penetrating the walls of the houses as well as UHF.

Marcus Carr

01-04-10, 03:32 PM

New Chopper For 11 - 12/24 - A DCRTVer tells us that Baltimore's Channel 11/WBAL will debut its new "SkyTeam 11 HD Chopper" in January.....

http://dcrtv.com/

gmucklow

01-04-10, 11:50 PM

I used to get DW-TV on the MHz network OTA broadcasts on virtual channel 30 in the Washington, DC area. These have disappeared. I also got it over the internet -- which has also disappeared -- including from their own web site in Germany. It detected that I was coming in from the US and popped up a message that said that DW-TV can be freely distributed anywhere in the world EXCEPT the United States because of legal problems.

Does anybody know which of our wonderful cable companies have managed to pull this off?

crookdimwit

01-05-10, 09:06 AM

Voyager06

01-05-10, 09:19 AM

WJLA is running at 52 kW and has been for some time.

- Trip

It's not a blanket permit to increase power. It's permission to increase power in conjunction with interference testing. They'll be making sure it doesn't trash WBPH-9 or WGAL-8.

- Trip
Well, it is working quite well up here in NE Maryland. Before the power increase, I could only pick up WUSA late at night or in the pre-dawn AM. Now I can get a solid signal lock all day. It has not interfered with reception of WGAL in my area. I hope WUSA gets approval to keep the extra power.

jgantert

01-05-10, 05:45 PM

Poker After Dark now in HD on WRC 4-1! :)

Sigmakan

01-05-10, 10:26 PM

ProjectSHO89

01-06-10, 07:27 AM

Hello all,

First time poster. I recently unboxed my HD antenna and found that I have lost many channels from when I last used it June (2009). I re did the channel search on my TV and still could not find these channels. In particular I cannot find WJLA. I live in silver spring and have my indoor antenna pointed in the correct direction but still cannot receive a signal.

I have a terk antenna. (cant post link)

Any help would be appreciated.

WJLA moved back to VHF-7. If your indoor antenna doesn't have rabbit ears, it probably won't work now for WJLA.

Additionally, you should probably try a memory erase scan of your receiver. Many of them got confused by the change of the physical channel from the transition and required the old data to be flushed out before accepting new.

If your antenna has an amplifier, try the unit with the amplifier removed from the circuit.

machpost

01-06-10, 08:02 AM

Extremely newbie question here, but I'm about to cut the cord with Comcast this month and working with a HTPC and off-air HDTV...

I'm looking at some indoor antennas (we're renting right now). Anyone have any recommendations for an indoor antenna that works well with DC-area off-air broadcasts?

Thanks!
- Matt

I just picked up a Terk HDTVi and I'm pretty happy with it. This is the non-amplified version; depending on your location, the amplified HDTVa might be better. I'm in a high-rise in the middle of Northwest D.C. where multipath interference is a huge problem, and I can get all the full-power Washington locals clearly except for MPT and WNVT/WNVC. I could probably get the latter two with some fiddling, but I think MPT is a lost cause without an outdoor antenna here. I get WJLA without even having to extend the rabbit ears, but WUSA requires them. Of the channels I do pull in, WETA is probably the hardest to get.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31-lgDvZSsL._SS400_.jpg

Sigmakan

01-06-10, 07:01 PM

WJLA moved back to VHF-7. If your indoor antenna doesn't have rabbit ears, it probably won't work now for WJLA.

Additionally, you should probably try a memory erase scan of your receiver. Many of them got confused by the change of the physical channel from the transition and required the old data to be flushed out before accepting new.

If your antenna has an amplifier, try the unit with the amplifier removed from the circuit.

Thank you for the response. Extending the rabbit ears allows me to pick up 7.1, 7.2, and 7.3 but the signal quality is terrible (15%). Turning the amplifier on and off seems to have no effect on the signal quality.

Placing a hand on the antenna and a hand on the base gives me a 60% signal which results in a perfect picture.

I suspect that living in an apartment decreases my VHF reception but has no effect on UHF reception, does this sound correct? Any solutions to this?

Apologies for the stupid question, I am a novice at this and I'd really like to receive WJLA in HD.

Thanks!

PhillyGuy

01-06-10, 10:40 PM

Does anyone know which digital channels are available in Baltimore City with QAM?

I assumed all the locals are in the clear.

Are these channels mapped to the correct channel number? Thanks

Marcus Carr

01-07-10, 12:39 AM

On January 12, Comcast in Baltimore will update its guide to A28.

www.comcast.com/newguide

systems2000

01-07-10, 11:51 AM

HDTV Sparky

01-07-10, 12:39 PM

Poker After Dark now in HD on WRC 4-1! :)

I'm sure as most others , I record 'Poker after dark' for viewing later.
After reading your post I checked and sure enough, it's in HD on WBAL

systems2000

01-07-10, 12:58 PM

WJLA is running at 52 kW and has been for some time.

- Trip
That (and WUSA along with WBAL power increases) would explain why I can now set a heading, on my antenna, that will give me WMAR, WJLA, WUSA, WBAL, WUTB, & WNUV (besides my locals - WHAG, WWPB, WWPX, & WJAL), all at the same time. I've also noticed a much broader window for WJLA & WUSA.

Trip in VA

01-08-10, 11:02 AM

Okay, I don't need it now, but around the end of the month, I'm going to need new TSReader data from WFDC. I just read an article that stated WFDC will also be participating in the Mobile DTV trials and that it will be coming on the air with it "after CES."

- Trip

jgantert

01-08-10, 02:46 PM

I'm sure as most others , I record 'Poker after dark' for viewing later.
After reading your post I checked and sure enough, it's in HD on WBAL
Yeah, I DVR it as well. This week started the new season, so I guess it's in HD for everyone. Nice to see, as the rest of NBC's poker shows have been HD for a while now. Even that horrible one, Face the Ace (blech).

systems2000

01-08-10, 10:01 PM

I just discovered that the JVC TV, which was given to me over the NewYears weekend, is a 36" EDTV with 800 lines of resolution. YEAH! Not bad for free (and it works). :)

Now I just need to find a place to put it, since it will not fit within my entertainment center.

JVC AV-36D303

3-Line Digital Comb Filter
Component Video Input
Illuminated Universal Remote with TV, VCR and DVD Control Capability
S-Video Input
800 Lines Horizontal Resolution
Hyper Scan High Speed Channel Changer
36" Diagonal Full Square Dark Tinted Picture Tube
BBE High Definition Audio
NEW Half Tone Icon Based On-Screen Display
MTS Stereo with SAP
Hyper Surround Sound
Front Firing Side Speakers
Audio Output 4.0 Watts x 2 Speakers
Return +
NEW Interactive Plug in Menu
Theater Status (Standard, Theater, Dynamic)
Multi-Function Timer
Sleep Timer
Channel Guard
Closed Caption w/Text
Black Level Expansion
Apacon
V-Chip
XDS Auto Clock Set with ID Display
3 AV Inputs (2 Rear, 1 Front)
AV Compu Link III
Fixed Audio Output
Energy Star Compliant
RF Input
2 Years Picture Tube, 1 Year Parts & Labor Warranty
Weight 149.6 lbs.
Width 37 7/8"
Height 30 1/2"
Depth 24 1/2"

djp952

01-09-10, 07:00 PM

Trip in VA

01-10-10, 02:05 AM

There's a 0x1FFF stream on WFDC now, I forget if that's Mobile DTV or not. LMK, I'd be happy to capture for you

No, 0x1fff are the null packets. It's 0x1eee or 0x1ff9 I believe that contains Mobile DTV data.

Thanks for looking, I'll be checking in again soon enough. :)

- Trip

VARTV

01-10-10, 08:25 AM

systems2000

01-10-10, 12:30 PM

Sure enough! It's a two man lift job. Still in my Jeep. :)

HDTV Sparky

01-10-10, 02:16 PM

Sure enough! It's a two man lift job. Still in my Jeep. :)

Keep it in the jeep for the rest of the winter, .....extra weight is good for traction!

Then in the spring it'll already be in the jeep when you take it to the dump !
The GOODWIIL probably won't want it.

gary michaels

01-11-10, 07:12 AM

WAZW-LD went on the air this weekend using channel 46 with 15 kw. The result is that WBFF which was very viewable on the same channel is now no longer a choice for anyone watching with an antenna up and down the I-81 corridor. The same company operates analog transmitters on channels 28 and 48 which is why people in the area have no reception of WRC. All 3 transmitters have the same programming. The channel 28 and 48 transmitters are on the same tower. Somebody must have a very good friend in Washington. If you have your choices limited by these stations, the name, phone number and e-mail to complain to is. Ron Croom, 540-459-8810 wazwtv@gmail.com. And of course the F.C.C

Digital Rules

01-11-10, 01:13 PM

WAZW-LD went on the air this weekend using channel 46 with 15 kw. The result is that WBFF which was very viewable on the same channel is now no longer a choice for anyone watching with an antenna up and down the I-81 corridor. I wasn't sure whether or not this was true since it isn't reflected in the TV FOOL database yet. The FCC website indicates the transmitter is located in Strasburg, Va. Thanks for the confirmation Gary.;)

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=LD1318489.html

systems2000

01-12-10, 11:31 AM

Well, there goes my attempt to try to re-acquire WBFF. :(

They have color bars on -2, -3, & -4 and there is a graphic of the "ON AIR" light with the following "You are watching WAZW-LD Winchester, VA. Please let us know you're watching. Call 800-459-8810 or send email to wazwtv@gmail.com" on -1.

My primary antenna gets a 30%/15% on the Zinwell. My secondary (fixed and unamplified) system that is optimized for that direction, gets a signal level in the lower third of my Insignia. It shows it's there, but doesn't decode.

pclement

01-12-10, 06:02 PM

Does anyone know if channel 20 (DC) and/or channel 54 (Balt) will be broadcasting any ACC Basketball in HD this year?

mkfs

01-13-10, 02:27 AM

Marcus Carr

01-13-10, 06:30 AM

The new Comcast guide (A28) download happened this morning.

There are new unlabeled channels in the guide at 1052, 2211, and 2514. These are the only four-digit channels.

For some reason Game Show Network is showing where RedZone and RedZone HD are positioned.

neo_sapien

01-13-10, 10:19 AM

Hello Washingtonians and/or fellow Marylanders.

I have Comcast cable in Montgomery County, and the overcompressed HDTV they send out is frustrating to me. So, I hooked up an Indoor HDTV antenna (http://www.amazon.com/Philips-SDV2780-Indoor-Antenna-Black/dp/B001S0UH4U/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1263394834&sr=8-1), (which only receives channel 4, channel 5, and channel 20, no channel 7 or 9, no matter which direction I aim it) and figured, hey, maybe at least I can start recording the superior OTA HD channels, instead of Comcast's overcompressed local HD channels.

But now, to my surprise, I'm seeing that NBC has a lower bitrate than Comcast, and FOX's bitrate is equal to Comcast's. Great God, man! How can this be? Has the world gone mad? Shaken to my very core, I did some simultaneous recordings to verify this anomalous bitrate madness, and cut out the commercials before examining the bitrate in MediaInfo.

NBC Nightly News - WRC DT Channel 4.1 Antenna 7:30PM - 11.0Mbps
NBC Nightly News - WRC DT Channel 211 Comcast 7:30PM - 12.4Mbps

The Simpsons - WTTG DT Channel 5.1 Antenna 12:00AM - 15.6Mbps
The Simpsons - WTTG DT Channel 213 Comcast 12:00AM - 15.6Mbps

What's going on here? I had thought that OTA would be delivering a pure, 19.39Mbps signal, better even than FIOS TV.

Trip in VA

01-13-10, 10:28 AM

Both stations are using a variable bitrate encoder, which means that during scenes that compress well, like solid black, non-moving images, upconverted SD, and cartoons (like the Simpsons) it can push the bitrate down without harming the picture quality. Plus, Fox's network HD only goes up to 16 Mbps due to limitations at the network's end.

I don't know the deal with NBC.

- Trip

neo_sapien

01-13-10, 10:34 AM

I'm afraid that the bitrate has been pushed down too far, and it is harming the picture quality. NBC OTA's NBC Nightly News broadcast was rather blocky at 11mbps for 1080i.

Does the conventional wisdom, that OTA provides the best quality, and certainly better than Comcast, not hold true in our area?

PaulGo

01-13-10, 11:10 AM

Comcast does not alter the compression of local HD channels. Most broadcast channels add one or two SD channels (PBS and ION add more) which cuts down the bit rate af the HD channels.

neo_sapien

01-13-10, 11:38 AM

Ah. Might as well disconnect the antenna, then, if Comcast's local channels are the exact same quality as OTA.

iontyre

01-13-10, 01:15 PM

Does anyone know if channel 20 (DC) and/or channel 54 (Balt) will be broadcasting any ACC Basketball in HD this year?

Terps were in HD on channel 54 just last night. Sadly, they lost...when are they going to learn how to shoot layups? Jeez, one of them actually missed the rim entirely on a second try after getting his own rebound!

And why is it whenever a terp is under the basket and tries to go up for a layin there are two guys from the opposing team right there PUSHING HIM DOWN and no foul is called? Are you telling me they both got nothing but ball? HA!!! Gregory was holding his head looking for blood and they made no call!

Knicks_Fan

01-13-10, 02:28 PM

machpost

01-13-10, 03:14 PM

Just visited a friend @ Georgetown U. who has RCN as a CATV source. She is stuck with a silver Motorola box [model unknown] that literally is 1.5U rack size; all it needs is ears.

In that postage stamp dorm room; it's a royal PITA. It does not have HDMI, either, but does output FW, USB & RGB at least.

Doesn't RCN offer anything smaller?

I'm pretty sure all the current Motorola HD DVRs are about the same size. If she's looking for HD minus the DVR functionality, RCN offers the DCX-3200, which is about half the width. I don't know how it works for college students, but for regular customers, they're pretty good about exchanging boxes at their downtown location.

ACW112983

01-13-10, 03:53 PM

Marcus Carr

01-13-10, 05:33 PM

Makes sense.

Not really. GSN has it's own channel position.

Coincidentally, my DTAs arrived today.

leroybrown

01-13-10, 10:32 PM

Does anyone know if Comcast carries the DCT or DCH3416 DVR in Loudoun county?

winchesterdoug

01-13-10, 11:06 PM

I have been ready to install my new antennas for HDTV reception and have been fighting getting WRC-DT. I know I am in a fringe area (near Martinsburg, WV) so I am using the XG91 + YA-1713 antennas with a Channel Master 7778 amplifier (the 7777 has been sold out everywhere).

I received all channels I expected based upon TVFool predictions except WRC on Channel 4.1-4.3. I manually entered channel 48.1 and using the signal indicator on my Sony TV I could see a locked signal with no errors and a signal level consistent with my distance, but the screen said no signal.

Since I could see a locked signal at a level higher than other stations I receive I just kept looking and found WRC main feed on 48.3, 4.2 on 48.4, etc. No matter how much I scan, I can't get my Sony to map 48.3 to 4.1, etc. All other channels are fine.

Any ideas on how to get my Sony to properly map WRC to 4.1...?

Thanks for any help.

I have the same problem with not receiving WRC 4 NBC here in Winchester, Va. - I have found out it is because the FCC has licensed a small low power Christian station (WAZW) to use the exact same frequency (channel 48) that WRC-TV in D.C. uses. Why they have allowed this duplication with another station only 70 miles away, I have no idea. But I filed a complaint with the FCC about this today - because just last week this same small station started using yet another frequency channel 46 supposedly for their digital broadcasts (although it is just a blank screen now) - and that has now prevented me from viewing WBFF Fox 45 in Baltimore which also uses channel 46. This may be what is causing your problem there as well. This whole thing is absolutely ridiculous as far as I am concerned. Two stations should NOT be using the same frequencies to broadcast on - when it means the larger station (which broadcasts in HD as well) is blocked.

Dave Loudin

01-14-10, 07:36 AM

Two stations should NOT be using the same frequencies to broadcast on - when it means the larger station (which broadcasts in HD as well) is blocked.

As I said in another thread, these allocations meet interference standards set forth by the FCC. Whenever TV stations apply for changes to their operations or a new station is proposed, the applicant has to provide the results of an interference analysis referred to as OET-69 (for the FCC document that describes it). The analysis includes running propagation calculations over a grid of locations that cover the service areas of each station. New operations of any sort have to demonstrate that they create new interference to less than 0.5% of the service area of any other station.

To visualize this, use the coverage map feature (online TV maps) of TVFool (http://tvfool.com). Note how little signal from WRC-DT is projected to get into the Valley and how little signal frojm WAZW-CA gets out of the Valley. By the way, WAZW was on 48 FIRST, back in 1990.

stump69

01-14-10, 09:30 AM

I was referred here from another thread (Philips 3575) for a question. I have Comcast cable in Montgomery County, MD with NO set-top box. On my Panasonic TC32LX60 HDTV, WUSA comes in on channels 9-1 and 9-2.

Does anyone here know the QAM channel assignment for WUSA for a QAM tuner? Comcast uses some sort of virtual channels for the locals that confuses the tuner in my Philips DVDR3575H for recording purposes. I've located all the other local HD channels as below:

NBC WRC 4-1, 4-2 and 4-3 have virtual assignments 108.1, 108.2 & 108.3
FOX WTTG 5-1 has a virtual assignment of 37.1
ABC WJLA 7-1 is located at 111.1
MNTV WDCA 20-1 converts to 38.1
CW WDCW 50-1 has been found on the 3575H at (surprise!!) 50.1

CBS WUSA 9-1 is nowhere to be found on my tuner. :confused:

If anyone can help, I would appreciate it! The analog recordings from Comcast's [extended basic] signal aren't very good, whereas the HD from the other locals as described above are fantastic.

Big J

01-14-10, 09:50 AM

9.1 works on my QAM tuner fine via Montgomery Co. Comcast, as of last night.

Ah. Might as well disconnect the antenna, then, if Comcast's local channels are the exact same quality as OTA.
I always thought the PQ from OTA was slightly sharper (depending on the show) than Comcast with my attic antenna, but not significantly.
Perhaps its just me.
J

Marcus Carr

01-14-10, 12:04 PM

I just got off the phone with Comcast. The date for digital migration in Baltimore City is February 12. Channels above 28 will go digital-only.

Hopefully that means more HD in the next couple of weeks after that.

MarcusInMD

01-14-10, 02:45 PM

I stopped by a local comcast location and asked about all digital in Carroll County, MD. They women said they already were all digital (I believe she was wrong?).

We now have DOCSIS 3 speeds locally, however, I don't believe we have all the channels that other locations have. Anyone have ideas of when this will actually occur here? I want to switch from Dish to reduce costs and get back into Tivo perhaps.

Thanks.

tmeader

01-14-10, 03:09 PM

Anyone in the Anne Arundel area been able to get any info from Comcast on when we'll see the A28 guide update? I've tried the online Comcast chat, and they know nothing about it. Likewise calling the local number, they can't tell me anything either. Getting quite frustrated.... HATE repeat recordings.

MrHifi

01-14-10, 03:13 PM

Does anyone know if Comcast carries the DCT or DCH3416 DVR in Loudoun county?

I use a 3416. Everything about it works beautifully except that its HDMI output always goes to 720P on startup when the source is HD. You have to manually switch it to 1080i. I've tried 2 different units and they both do the same thing. A real PIA.

I am in Davidsonville so can't answer your question. Sorry.

Marcus Carr

01-15-10, 12:41 PM

MASN vs. CSN, in HD

"The upcoming spring launch of MASN's second HD channel, MASN2-HD, will allow the regional sports network to televise every Orioles and Nationals game -- that's more than 320 games -- in 'crystal-clear high definition.' "

That's via Press Box Online, and it's a development that will allow MASN to trumpet its complete HDness, especially in regards to regional competitors.

"MASN is proud to be the first sports network in the region to offer every one of its professional games in high definition," MASN spokesman Todd Webster said in the story. Hmm, wonder what other sports network in the region he might be referring to? Regional sports network feud!

Because people are obsessed with this issue, I asked Comcast SportsNet about its overflow CSN+ games for the Wizards and Capitals, which do not currently air in "crystal-clear high definition."

"Our commitment to HD includes investigating how best to begin providing CSN+ programming in HD, and we will announce timing and other specifics when they become available," a CSN spokesman wrote me.

I'd also like to clear up one consistent misconception that has made Caps fans mighty angry. There's a sense that the Caps are getting the short end of the HD stick compared with the Wizards, but that's not exactly right.

CSN has 62 Caps games, with 12 pushed onto CSN+ and one on The Comcast Network. There are a total of 49 HD games. CSN, meantime, has 66 Wizards games, with 14 pushed onto CSN+ and one on The Comcast Network. There are a total of 52 HD games.

Those proportions strike me as nearly identical, which is how you'd hope the network would handle its two biggest sports properties. Some Caps fans have suggested that the Caps' success should merit preferential treatment, but I think that's a recipe for future disaster. The Caps have had 10 CSN+ games already this season, while the Wizards have only had 7, which is probably why Caps fans have been feeling aggrieved, but the equation will even out shortly.

As for ratings, I'm trying to work on a larger piece on this issue, but there's no doubt that games on CSN+ do considerably worse than games on CSN. Data I've seen suggests that Caps games on CSN+ have an audience about half the size of games on CSN, and that the gap between the two numbers has grown since last season. There are no doubt several reasons: CSN+ is harder to find, is unavailable to at least some local viewers, and is occasionally ghastly to look at. Ted Leonsis had a few things to say on these issues in a recent blog post, asking CSN to

* "Get more HD as promised. Why isn't every Capitals game shot and broadcast in HD?"

and

* " Fix the quality of CSN Plus. The picture shouldn't look like 1970's circa production value."

As always, I'll note that The Post has a business relationship with CSN, and that I love that network dearly, especially when Michael Jenkins is slipping "Pants on the Ground" references into his hosting duties.

By Dan Steinberg | January 15, 2010; 11:54 AM ET

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/dcsportsbog/2010/01/masn_vs_csn_in_hd.html

pclement

01-15-10, 12:56 PM

Terps were in HD on channel 54 just last night. Sadly, they lost...when are they going to learn how to shoot layups? Jeez, one of them actually missed the rim entirely on a second try after getting his own rebound!

And why is it whenever a terp is under the basket and tries to go up for a layin there are two guys from the opposing team right there PUSHING HIM DOWN and no foul is called? Are you telling me they both got nothing but ball? HA!!! Gregory was holding his head looking for blood and they made no call!

Thanks. Yes, I did get the ACC in HD. I think this was the first game this season. I hope to see many more. Too bad the Terps lost, but the ACC is really wide open and eight wins should get MD in the Dance. I still think Duke will win the regular season and UNC second. NCSU, UVA and BC should be the bottom three and everyone else in the middle. Only UVA does not have a loss and everyone has a win. Going to be an exciting season!

iontyre

01-15-10, 03:11 PM

Thanks. Yes, I did get the ACC in HD. I think this was the first game this season. I hope to see many more. Too bad the Terps lost, but the ACC is really wide open and eight wins should get MD in the Dance. I still think Duke will win the regular season and UNC second. NCSU, UVA and BC should be the bottom three and everyone else in the middle. Only UVA does not have a loss and everyone has a win. Going to be an exciting season!

We are getting a bit OT, but just let me say, I don't think eight wins is going to be enough. They did nothing in the pre-ACC schedule to add to their resume (lost every game against quality opponents), so they need to be a bit special in the ACC to make the dance. At least 9 wins, and maybe two tourney wins on top of that.

mdviewer25

01-16-10, 07:24 AM

Is anyone else experiencing problems with Comcast QAM channels? This morning I've seen analog channels black out or freeze for long periods of time and QAM channels disappear and reappear later. I'm in Prince George's county and don't know when they are supposed to go all digital. I have not received any notices about that yet so I don't think that what they are doing.

bigdawgte

01-16-10, 08:55 AM

I'm in Largo and we've had the same thing and worse this last week or so. Worse yet, whatever they're doing has been causing my Hdhomerun (tuner) to go nuts. My wife counted that all channels, Comcast QAM and OTA would freeze every 5 minutes for 30 seconds for several nights. I thought that the tuner(s) were dying until I tracked the problem down to something Comcast was doing.:rolleyes:

Just glad to have figured it out before I spent any money....;)

pclement

01-16-10, 10:37 AM

We are getting a bit OT, but just let me say, I don't think eight wins is going to be enough. They did nothing in the pre-ACC schedule to add to their resume (lost every game against quality opponents), so they need to be a bit special in the ACC to make the dance. At least 9 wins, and maybe two tourney wins on top of that.

You could be right. Depends if those wins include UNC and Duke. Last year we had a big win over MSU that also helped. Still too early to say, but the PAC10 and SEC seem down and there may be less competition for the Dance. Big East is loaded again. I don't think the Big Ten is as good as some (ESPN) claim. Heck they only one the challenge because a certain Tiger team could not hold a 27 point lead at home in the 2nd half! I think Coach Willimas has this MD team playing up to their potential now so even 9 wins is not out of the question.

But this is not a sports blog. It is a AV blog. I really enjoy the games in HD and on a big screen. Can usually see fouls better and toes over the 3 point line.

Thanks to 54-1 and 20-1 for showing the ACC games in HD.

nottenst

01-16-10, 03:22 PM

Coolboarder10

01-16-10, 06:23 PM

I was wondering why 45 dropped out and come to find out this is the reason why. This is unexceptable. I have had these channels for months. If I could get channel 50 I wouldn't mind so much since THIS Movie channel is partnered with them. But I can't get 50. I already miss This Movie channel a lot. What are the odds of us getting our station back? Please help me. I will do what the people in this great forum recommend.

Digital Rules

01-16-10, 06:29 PM

Coolboader10,

Where are you located? You should be able to post a TV FOOL report with 1 or 2 more posts.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29

mdviewer25

01-16-10, 07:28 PM

When I had someone here for service he said that April 15 is when PG County is supposed to flip the switch (or at least my area of it).

Earlier today, I made sure all my cables were tightly screwed and the freezing problem stopped for now. However, some QAM channels have disappeared. Also, they are remapping the local channels in a weird way. The HD OTA channels are remapped to their right channels but when I tune to 84-1 it goes to 7-31. On another tuner, it stays on 84-1 and also includes the Comcast Network, TBS, and ESPN2 in that group. Those SD cable channels don't show up on my TV. Have they sent anything to anyone else about free DTA's or converter boxes?

Coolboarder10

01-16-10, 07:55 PM

I live near Martinsburg Wv.

Digital Rules

01-16-10, 08:21 PM

I live near Martinsburg Wv.Do you receive any of the other DC UHF stations?(4,5,14,20,26,32, or 66)

Coolboarder10

01-16-10, 08:33 PM

I recieve 2,4,5,7,9.14,20 both 24's, 25,26,30,31,33,42,54,60,66,67
I can sometimes get 11,13,42 and the high end of the mhz of 30.

Trip in VA

01-16-10, 08:33 PM

His problem with 50 is analog W50DE which is still on the air for some reason, probably because W08EE-D is so difficult to receive.

His problem with 46 (45-1) is digital WAZW-LD from Winchester.

The FCC really needs to get W50DE off the air or onto another channel. That, or Tribune needs to light up W51CY-D already.

- Trip

Coolboarder10

01-16-10, 08:59 PM

What can I do to get WDCW-DT 50? Getting that station would also get me This Tv again. The only problem is I don't have an easy add on scan to get more channels in my tuner. So It's a big pain in the butt to have to auto scan every time and lose the last group of channels to get new ones. At least with 45 It was close enough with my DC stations that I didn't have to rescan.

Trip in VA

01-16-10, 09:05 PM

If you still have an analog TV you can hook up to your antenna, you want to make analog 50 look as weak as you possibly can. The weaker it looks, the more likely you are that WDCW will be able to break through and decode for you. That might be your best bet.

- Trip

Coolboarder10

01-16-10, 09:18 PM

I don't know how else to do that especially since my antenna isnt even in that direction. My antenna is around 107 to 137 degrees. I have an hdtv and a few analong tvs with converter boxes

systems2000

01-16-10, 09:54 PM

W50DE doesn't have any requirement to discontinue transmission.

Contact WDCW and ask them to turn W51CY back ON. I've been after them to turn it back "ON" ever since their primary transmitter switched back to 50 from 51.

With WAZW-LD on the air, your reception of WBFF is gone.

Speaking of WAZW-LD, I just checked and their transmitter seems to be off the air at the moment, unless they turned down their power.

Digital Rules

01-16-10, 10:06 PM

His problem with 50 is analog W50DE which is still on the air for some reason, probably because W08EE-D is so difficult to receive.

- TripThanks Trip;),

I forgot about W50DE. Unfortunately the generic TV FOOL report for Martinsburg looks pretty bleak for WDCW-50.:( I have found DC50 a challenge to receive once you get beyond 30 miles or so from DC without a good antenna & pre-amp.

Coolboarder10

01-16-10, 10:20 PM

systems2000

01-16-10, 10:43 PM

Since you are outside the WBFF "Service Contour," you need to consider it gone. I've already checked with them, months ago, and they have no plans to increase their power.

W51CY is WDCW's translator for the valley. I want ThisTV also.

NOTE: At my location, WDCW doesn't even register on TVFOOL, while W51CY (LOS) is shown at 43.2dB (NM) and WBFF (1edge) is shown at -17.8dB (NM), with WAZW-LD not even listed, although I do have WKBS-DT coming from 331° (M) on RF46 at -16.9dB (NM).

Also, WNUV and WWPX can't be found in my TVFOOL report either, even though both are very strong. WWPX is LOS and WNUV is 2edge.

Coolboarder10

01-16-10, 11:05 PM

So what is the best way of contacting W51CY? So hopefully we can get ThisTv on 50.
Do you happen to know of any other towers coming near us from any other major networks such as another NBC or Fox? and if so when?

Coolboarder10

01-16-10, 11:07 PM

i guess I should do a rescan and see what this new 45 is all about. Is it still just a blank screen? Does it have any sub channels?

systems2000

01-16-10, 11:25 PM

WDCW can be reached at (202) 965-5050 http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/sta_det.pl?Facility_id=64680

I just checked the Service Contour (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=LD1304013.html) of W51CY and It covers Brunswick, Chambersburg, Charlestown, Frederick, Gettysburg, Hagerstown, Hancock, Martinsburg, McConnellsburg, Shippensburg, Taneytown, and Thurmont.

WAZW-LD is on RF46, and so is WBFF (Service Contour (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT1337726.html)) and WKBS (Service Contour (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT1251132.html)).

Coolboarder10

01-16-10, 11:42 PM

winchesterdoug

01-16-10, 11:48 PM

Will the FCC be able to help us people in and around Martinsburg get WBFF 45 again by having the new 45 change station numbers? Is W51CY the same as WDCW 50?

I am in Winchester, Va. and I too lost WBFF Fox 45 and This TV on 45.2 about 10 days ago and I had been receiving the stations very strongly for over a year. I have been trying to find out on here what to do about this and all I keep hearing is "there is nothing I can do" but I don't believe that. There is a low power Christian TV station in Winchester - WAZW - that keeps adding translators on frequencies used by larger TV stations. I have been researching the FCC's own regulations about LPTV and interference with other stations - WAZW-CA is on channel 48 and it seems WAZW-CA was on 48 before WRC-TV NBC 4 in Washington DC started using it for digital. But WAZW on channel 46 (which is what WBFF FOX 45 uses) - is showing as a digital low power TV station- and according to FCC regulations LPTV stations have "secondary spectrum priority" and must not interfere with reception of full-service TV stations. It doesn't say anything about "service contour maps" or how far out the station is or any of that other stuff that people keep quoting me. It just says that LPTV stations must not interfere with reception of existing or even new "full service" TV stations. So why then is this WAZW transmitting in the last 10 days on channel 46 and blocking WBFF Fox 45 out of Baltimore? The answer is- they shouldn't be. I filed a complaint three days ago with the FCC over this matter and also have written the station general manager at WBFF-TV hoping to get some help and input on this. This clearly should not be happening.

Trip in VA

01-16-10, 11:55 PM

Coolboarder10

01-16-10, 11:57 PM

Not to get off topic but I have a question about digital tuners. Since the digital ota tuner in my hdtv sucks. It won't let me add channels to my channel list after my inital scan. Is it possiable to get an external digital tuner so I can rotate my ota outdoor antenna and get all my channels saved. Then some how hook it up to my tv and not have to use the built in tuner with out any picture quality loss?

winchesterdoug

01-17-10, 12:03 AM

I wish you the best of luck, but past experience with the FCC is that anything outside the coverage contour is not protected and the FCC will not care. Believe me, I live outside the coverage contours of most of my local stations too, and the FCC has told me that I am SOL.

- Trip

Who designs these "service contour maps" and on what are they based? I have looked at some of them and many TV stations are receivable far beyond these boundaries that are shown on these maps. Is there a reason for being so conservative with regard to reception areas shown?

systems2000

01-17-10, 10:16 AM

So I should just call WDCW (202) 965-5050 and tell them to turn up the power on there tower?
I don't believe you'll be able to get them to do that, since they have to go through a bunch of hoops with the FCC for clearance and their transmitter/antenna may already be at designed maximum output.

What you can do is strongly urge them to re-activate their translator W51CY. I've even suggested that they use a CECB and retransmit the content via analog, until they get the equipment for DTV.

Trip in VA

01-17-10, 10:23 AM

ProjectSHO89

01-17-10, 10:34 AM

systems2000

01-17-10, 11:51 AM

WBFF could go back to RF45 and WRC could go to RF20.

Trip in VA

01-17-10, 11:59 AM

WBFF could go back to RF45 and WRC could go to RF20.

WBFF requested 45 during the channel elections and the FCC said no. WDCA requested 20 during the channel elections and was also told no.

- Trip

Digital Rules

01-17-10, 12:04 PM

Trip,

Do you think RF 45 was denied because of RF 44 in Clear Spring, MD?

Trip in VA

01-17-10, 12:13 PM

I suspect it was related to WWPB, WDPB, or both.

- Trip

winchesterdoug

01-17-10, 12:53 PM

WBFF requested 45 during the channel elections and the FCC said no. WDCA requested 20 during the channel elections and was also told no.

- Trip

Well, if that is the case and the stations were told "no" for those channel elections then the FCC most certainly shouldn't be allowing low power television stations to be broadcasting on their current frequencies and blocking the transmissions of full-service stations. Something just doesn't seem right here.

Trip in VA

01-17-10, 01:08 PM

winchesterdoug

01-17-10, 11:53 PM

That's how the rules are written. A station like WAZW-LD runs a Longley-Rice interference study. If it can show that it will cause interference to less than 0.5% of the population covered by a particular full-powered station, then it will be allowed. In the case of WBFF, given that much of the population is centered around Baltimore and DC, I suspect 0.5% interference could actually be a very large land area.

This is an area where the FCC's engineering rules could use some improvement. There are many cases where the prediction says one thing and the real world says another, and I wish the FCC would use the real world to make judgments (as they did in the 50's, I might point out) rather than the computer models which, as useful as they can be, are not perfect.

- Trip
I agree. They are definitely not perfect. As written then, they are depriving large populations in rural areas who depend on OTA TV to watch network television affiliates, the ability to view those larger stations if they are going to allow anyone who wants to - to set up a low power TV station. These smaller "special interest" stations can block out transmissions from urban stations. Sounds like a plan to get everybody to subscribe to cable and satellite, even if they don't want to. What choice do you have, if networks are blocked from viewing by smaller low power stations? The whole thing is utterly ridiculous. Of course, we do have to remember we are dealing with a government agency.

systems2000

01-18-10, 12:09 AM

Well, I'll be moving in the next month or so. :(

One location I was looking at, is about six miles NNW of where I'm at now. Just for fun, I decided to do a TVFOOL report on a setup very similar to what I have here. I found some interesting information.

Harrisburg stations become receivable:
NM for WHTM would increase by 25.7dB and goes from 2edge to 1edge
NM for WITF would increase by 24.8dB and goes from 2edge to 1edge
NM for WHP would increase by 24.0dB and goes from 2edge to 1edge
NM for WLYH would increase by 3.0dB
NM for WGCB would increase by 2.2dB
NM for WPMT would increase by 0.7dB

While the NM for WGAL (RF8) would increase by 6.7dB and the NM for W08EE-D would decrease by 5.5dB, there is still a 14.8dB spread between them and I expect W08EE-D would still be receivable.

Locals decrease in intensity:
WHAG would decrease by 3.2dB NM (59.3 to 56.1 - hottest station)
WJAL would decrease by 1.7dB NM (53.8 to 52.1)
WWPB would decrease by 3.4dB NM (54.6 to 51.2)

WHSV-TV would go from LOS to 1edge
WVPY would go from LOS to 1edge
W34DW-D would go from 2edge to 1edge
WAZW-LD would go from LOS to 2edge and the NM would decrease from 10.2dB to 1.8dB

Altoona stations:
NM for WATM would increase by 5.0dB and go from 2edge to 1edge
WTAJ doesn't even show up on the report, although I suspect it's would be receivable.

There is only a 0-5dB change in the status of the Baltimore and D.C. stations and they all stay 2edge.

What really caught my attention were the receive levels of WHTM, WITF, and WHP making huge jumps into the "+" levels.

systems2000

01-18-10, 12:15 AM

What choice do you have, if networks are blocked from viewing by smaller low power stations?
Blockage can also come from neighboring DMA's. Since I sit smack dab in between Altoona, Harrisburg, and Baltimore/D.C., there are plenty of opportunities for co-channel interference.

Digital Rules

01-18-10, 11:32 AM

Well, I'll be moving in the next month or so. :( How difficult is it to take down your tower:confused:

systems2000

01-18-10, 11:37 AM

Remove the antennas, unbolt the brackets, and let it fall into the yard. :D

Actually, I have a couple of reels of conduit rope that will let me lower it into the yard (along with a couple of buddies to walk the tower down), where I'll unbolt the 10' sections.

Coolboarder10

01-18-10, 11:17 PM

I just wanted people to know that I emailed the Fcc about the whole Wbff 45 channel loss. They sent me back an auto responce email with an id number. Fingers crossed that they will actually do something. I also emailed Ron Croom at wazw. I have not recieved anything back from him yet. I also want people to know that because of this whole situation that I am very worried about the way the Fcc is going to vote in Feb about lossing more digital spectdrum to broadband wirerless. We should all take more of a stand and try to keep our channels.

Dave Loudin

01-19-10, 08:30 AM

Who designs these "service contour maps" and on what are they based? I have looked at some of them and many TV stations are receivable far beyond these boundaries that are shown on these maps. Is there a reason for being so conservative with regard to reception areas shown?

First, what do we mean by service area worthy of protection? Two things: a signal level that is easily received and generally free of natural noise AND at range, available over a majority of locations. Outside of its service area, a signal does not become instantly gone, it is now generally subject to natural interference and is harder to receive over most locations. Protection of service areas (at full-power levels for sure) usually preserves reception in the fringe areas to a point, but does not guarantee them.

Calculating signal level for VHF and UHF broadcast service areas contains one major approximation - fixing antenna height for a direction at the Height Above Average Terrain in that direction. Determining HAAT involves only the first 16 km along a direction, so terrain blockage beyond this distance is ignored - the prime reason why contour plots diverge from coverage maps based on Longley-Rice predictions. As a result, the contour plots tend to overestimate coverage, especially in places where tall ridges shadow large portions of the potential service area. This also means that this method should never underestimate coverage. This is a good thing, especially when contour protection is used for FM proposals that fail minimum spacing requirements.

Let me emphasize that the contour plot method is meant to estimate service available to a majority of potential receivers. Can stations be received beyond that range? Certainly. However, the fraction of receivers that catch that signal begins to decrease rapidly.

For TV, with the advent of widely available digital terrain data and computer horsepower, a second step has been added using Longley-Rice predictions - the calculation of additional interference over an entire service area. Actually, this is more than one step - it is an algorithm as follows:
* Determine the service area of the subject station and run Longley-Rice predictions for that station to a grid of points across that area.
* Run Longley-Rice predictions to the grid of points for every station that could interfere with the subject station
* Assess the coverage of the subject station at each point as:
- covered
- no coverage, no interference (terrain blockage)
- no coverage due to interference
* Run Longley-Rice predictions for the proposal to the grid of points
* Reassess coverage of the subject station to measure interference impact (how many additional points fail due to interference)

As you can see, bringing more precision into spectrum allocation decisions ramps up the computer resource requirements quickly. Bringing more precision also leads to closer spacing between stations, which is unavoidable with the pressure on spectrum for TV broadcast. This means that bringing more precision also leads to less opportunity for DX reception, which honestly, is what watching WBFF in the Winchester and Martinsburg areas is.

There is no way that a majority of receivers in the Winchester and Martinsburg areas can receive WBFF. Does it make sense as a matter of policy to protect WBFF's coverage to the few who can see it? If so, then that policy applied uniformly would force a lot of stations off the air.

Jimmy

01-19-10, 11:18 AM

How difficult is it to take down your tower:confused:

Mine was 3 sections, not counting the base in the cement. I put it up by myself and could take it down by myself. It depends on how long it's been up. The hardest part is getting the bolts loose. I also had and used a lineman's safety belt, which always made it easy to work on the antenna. You just lean back in the belt, lift the section up and out, and lower the section with a rope.

gary michaels

01-19-10, 11:47 AM

There is no way that a majority of receivers in the Winchester and Martinsburg areas can receive WBFF. Does it make sense as a matter of policy to protect WBFF's coverage to the few who can see it? If so, then that policy applied uniformly would force a lot of stations off the air.

Dave, having homes in both the Winchester and Martinsburg areas, I can tell you that with a simple, basic outside antenna just about anyone can and do or should I say did receive WBFF on a regular basis along with the rest of the signals out of both DC and Baltimore including WBAL and WJZ. In these outside of big city areas many people depend on these signals. In allowing the low power service to cover up these signals is a great disservice to a huge number of people.

Kelly From KOMO

01-19-10, 02:06 PM

Dave Loudin

01-19-10, 03:29 PM

Dave, having homes in both the Winchester and Martinsburg areas, I can tell you that with a simple, basic outside antenna just about anyone can and do or should I say did receive WBFF on a regular basis along with the rest of the signals out of both DC and Baltimore including WBAL and WJZ. In these outside of big city areas many people depend on these signals. In allowing the low power service to cover up these signals is a great disservice to a huge number of people.

I'm originally from central WV where OTA reception required some effort, so I completely understand where you're coming from. However, I honestly think you're overestimating the percentage of homes that could receive WBFF. Check out the plot (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=80&q=call%3dwbff%26type%3dD) at TVFool to see what I mean. You will see similar results for other DC/Baltimore stations - the Blue Ridge casts quite a shadow.

To see how accounting for terrain effects leads to greater spectrum use, look at how W38AN's (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=80&q=call%3dw38an%26type%3dD) coverage bumps right up against WHUT's (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=80&q=call%3dwhut). There is no getting around this in the northeast, especially.

To tie these plots back to my last post, what people are asking for is to protect reception to regions that are shaded purple on TVFool's reception maps. That has never happened in allocation policy before, and certainly won't start now. Reception in these areas has been possible through protection of the green-shaded areas of high-power stations.

Dave Loudin

01-19-10, 03:59 PM

For Coolboarder 10, winchesterdoug, gary michaels, and others, my discussion on protection was limited to primary services only, meaning full-power or Class A low-power stations. Secondary services, such as LPTV, must not, as we noted before, interfere with primary services. You all have documented cases where an LPTV has affected your reception of a primary service, and you have the right to file a complaint with the FCC. However, I believe that you will not succeed in forcing the offending operation off the air, as I don't believe you can find a lot of other people with the same circumstances. You have to clearly demonstrate that the Longley-Rice predictions over an area are wrong.

systems2000

01-19-10, 08:11 PM

To see how accounting for terrain effects leads to greater spectrum use, look at how W38AN's (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=80&q=call%3dw38an%26type%3dD) coverage bumps right up against WHUT's (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=80&q=call%3dwhut). There is no getting around this in the northeast, especially.
Currently, W38AN (RF33) is not on the air and looks to be awhile before it is. Last I knew from talking with the engineers, they haven't even purchased the equipment yet.

winchesterdoug

01-19-10, 09:00 PM

I believe the licensees of the LPTV's would probably disagree with you.

According to the FCC's own regulations - LPTV stations have "secondary spectrum priority" to full-service stations. And that LPTV stations MUST NOT cause interference to the reception of existing or future full-service television stations. WBFF-TV Fox 45 out of Baltimore is a network affiliate station with a very strong signal (and no, it does not require a powerful antenna to receive) but for some unknown reason the FCC is allowing a small religious LPTV station to use the same frequency as WBFF-TV (channel 46) and this is depriving many viewers in the valley from receiving the transmissions from a Fox affiliate TV station. To any sensible person, this is a no-brainer. WBFF-TV Fox 45 was transmitting on digital channel 46 over a year ago - and there is no reason why there signal should be blocked by a low power local interest TV station. This whole situation is totally ridiculous and very frustrating. It is beyond reason.

Coolboarder10

01-20-10, 01:58 AM

Dave Loudin

01-20-10, 06:36 AM

Currently, W38AN (RF33) is not on the air and looks to be awhile before it is. Last I knew from talking with the engineers, they haven't even purchased the equipment yet.

I realized that after I posted, but TVFool doesn't have a plot for WAZW-LD yet.

Winchesterdoug, did you read anything I wrote yesterday? Have you looked at the WBFF coverage plot I pointed to? It's not "an unknown reason" why WAZW-LD could use 46 - the engineering models (not the contour plots - the Longley-Rice ones) show that they can. You will need more than two or three complaints to force a change.

winchesterdoug

01-20-10, 11:56 AM

Right on Winchesterdoug. What other people might not remember is that Wazw-ld is also using 2 other transmitters that are analog. Which brings there total transmitters up to 3. And they are using all 3 transmitters to send out the same exact programming. In some cases there analog tranmitter is blocking out another station WRC. So you might be losing up to 5 channels right there alone. And the rumor is that there going to use another tower that will use the same channel as 54 out of Baltimore as well. If that happens some people might lose up to 6 channels. That is ridiculas. We shouldn't be forced to lose our major network channels. If anything we should be getting more.

Yes, WAZW is also slated to set up a low power digital station on channel 40 as well. This will then block us from receiving the CW affiliate WNUV channel 54 out of Baltimore because they transmit on digital channel 40. We already can't get CW WDCW 50 out of Washington DC because there is a low power analog station on channel 50 in Martinsburg blocking WDCW's transmission. So then we will not have ANY of the CW network's programming making it into the valley. I am particularly distressed that the FCC allows an unlimited number of these low power stations and translators to transmit on so many channels already being used by network affiliates with strong signals, and then blocking those varied channels from being received. But it seems that you and I are the only ones upset about this. Everybody else seems to think it is just fine. I wonder if there is some kind of legal action that could be taken to void this monopolizing of so many channels for just one entity? I just don't think it is fair.

Kelly From KOMO

01-20-10, 12:01 PM

Right on Winchesterdoug. What other people might not remember is that Wazw-ld is also using 2 other transmitters that are analog. Which brings there total transmitters up to 3. And they are using all 3 transmitters to send out the same exact programming. In some cases there analog tranmitter is blocking out another station WRC. So you might be losing up to 5 channels right there alone. And the rumor is that there going to use another tower that will use the same channel as 54 out of Baltimore as well. If that happens some people might lose up to 6 channels. That is ridiculas. We shouldn't be forced to lose our major network channels. If anything we should be getting more.

Actually there are no rules for whether several LPTV's carry the same programming. It happens all the time.

I've also run across consumer complaints where a DTV viewer is trying to watch large market station at a distance, but receives interference from a co-or adjacent channel LPTV. In both cases, the LPTV was well within it's allocation with measured field strength at or less that the calculated licensed level at that distance. In one instance, the folks complaining were using a high gain antenna with amplifier in an attempt to 'pull in' I believe the CBS affillate station almost 90 miles away.

Of course to be fair I've seen some pretty shoddy licensed LPTV operations that have created interference, but for the most part those are few and far between.

It will be interesting to see how the Commission will handle allocations and CP's to LP analog stations wanting to transition to ATSC prior to the estimated next deadline of 2012, given what we've learned post-transition. I'm not sure if there will be enough room to accomodate all the LPs and translators.

Sammer

01-20-10, 12:04 PM

To any sensible person, this is a no-brainer. WBFF-TV Fox 45 was transmitting on digital channel 46 over a year ago - and there is no reason why there signal should be blocked by a low power local interest TV station. This whole situation is totally ridiculous and very frustrating. It is beyond reason.
You mean to any sensible viewer. You're not only on the fringe of WBFF reception but you're also in a different DMA so you don't count toward their ratings. If WAZT tried to put an LD on channel 36 in your area the reaction of both the Fox station involved and the FCC would be very different.

Dave Loudin

01-20-10, 01:19 PM

I am particularly distressed that the FCC allows an unlimited number of these low power stations and translators to transmit on so many channels already being used by network affiliates with strong signals, and then blocking those varied channels from being received. But it seems that you and I are the only ones upset about this. Everybody else seems to think it is just fine. I wonder if there is some kind of legal action that could be taken to void this monopolizing of so many channels for just one entity? I just don't think it is fair.

You seem to be ignoring me entirely. I've tried to walk you through how the spectrum allocation process works, what the models used in the process show (the WBFF plot), and what you would need to do to effect change.

Quite simply, WBFF is predicted to NOT be a "strong signal" in your area and the spectrum analysis method I described predicts less than 0.5% additional interference to WBFF's service area. Outside of getting many other people to join you in complaining about interference (with some evidence that they could actually receive WBFF before), you are out of luck. Sorry.

systems2000

01-20-10, 01:58 PM

Actually there are no rules for whether several LPTV's carry the same programming. It happens all the time.
Just look at WNPB and WGAL.

Trip in VA

01-20-10, 02:23 PM

Just look at WNPB and WGAL.

WGAL hasn't been approved, and WNPB's various translators are designed to cover different parts of West Virginia.

- Trip

systems2000

01-20-10, 04:03 PM

I was pointing out how one station has more than one transmitter, on different RF's.

Trip in VA

01-20-10, 04:09 PM

Ah, okay. :)

- Trip

systems2000

01-20-10, 04:32 PM

Speaking of WGAL, they are on the verge of getting approval for the 32.2Kw increase (from 14.1Kw), but need to work some minor issues out, with the station North of them.

winchesterdoug

01-20-10, 07:58 PM

You mean to any sensible viewer. You're not only on the fringe of WBFF reception but you're also in a different DMA so you don't count toward their ratings. If WAZT tried to put an LD on channel 36 in your area the reaction of both the Fox station involved and the FCC would be very different.

Yes, you have a good point about that.

Marcus Carr

01-21-10, 04:46 PM

MASN Announces 2010 Baseball Television Schedule

By MASN Staff on January 21, 2010 10:37 AM

(Washington D.C.) -- MASN, the television home of the Washington Nationals and Baltimore Orioles, announced today its Major League Baseball programming schedule for the 2010 season. With the April launch of MASN2 HD, MASN will carry every game and every play -- 320 MLB games -- in high definition throughout the season.

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The Orioles will play 95 games live on MASN and MASN HD and 63 games on MASN2 and MASN2 HD. Viewers in the Baltimore area will be able to watch 20 MASN-produced Orioles games simulcast on the network's over-the-air partner, WJZ-TV Channel 13. Three games are currently scheduled to appear on national networks.

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The Nationals television schedule is available here.

http://www.masnsports.com/pdfs/2010_nationals_schedule.pdf

The Orioles television schedule is available here.

http://www.masnsports.com/pdfs/2010_orioles_schedule.pdf

http://masnsports.com/2010/01/masn-announces-2010-baseball-t.html

Coolboarder10

01-22-10, 02:32 AM

Dave Loudin

01-22-10, 09:00 AM

I only have one major channel in the green shaded area. Nbc 25. And it's programming isn't always as good as Wrc 4. I get a total nuber of 0 in the yellow shaded area because I can't recieve Abc 42. I get 3 major networks in the red area. I get 5 in the gray now because I lost 45. So you guys think that this is fair? That I should only have one major network channel protected. Unbeleavable. What are people like Gary, Winchesterdoug and I supposed to do now? It's not like We can get major ota channels from another market. Heck were in an area that has baltimore and dc. It has to be one of the better markets to recieve ota to begin with.

I agree that your situation is disappointing, but fairness, honestly, depends on the point of view. That you have been able to pull in DC and Baltimore has been to this point a happy by-product of 1) full-power stations protecting each other and 2) enough spectrum for LPTV to stay generally away from full-power stations.

Let me explain a little more about point 1. Protecting a signal from interference means keeping the sum of unwanted signals from exceeding a threshhold below it. To use some made-up numbers, if protection means maintaining a 40dB ratio between wanted and unwanted, and the minimum signal level to be protected is 41dB above 1 microvolt, then where the protected signal is 41dB, all unwanted signals can't add up to be more than 1dB. Imagine how far away a full-power station must be to guarentee that. For fringe area viewers, that will leave some margin between wanted/unwanted, and using the necessary outdoor antenna helps to discriminate between the signals even more.

For point 2, low-power services such as translators and LPTV have a greater interest in operating on the quietest frequencies possible, as, of course, having veiwers in their fringe area means more to them. Prior to the DTV transition, there was enough room for these stations to generally stay away from full-power fringe areas. Now there is not, and that hurts all parties, as you can tell.

Since I quoted used numbers earlier, let me use them to explain why fringe-area reception is not protected. For the sake of this discussion, let's assume that your signal level is another 10 dB down, or 31 dB. For full protection, that means unwanted signals must be -9dB, and this much lower level is much farther from the desired station than the last example. This would either increase the required separation between stations dramatically, or force across-the-board power reductions. Either way, that's a tremendous penalty to pay for all viewers, and you would still lose service in the long run.

With the added precision of assessing interference in TV broadcasting, the FCC opened the door to using terrain shielding for allocation decisions. We would not be having this discussion if the Blue Ridge was not between Winchester and DC/Baltimore. WAZW-LD could not set up shop on 46 with any meaningful signal.

In the long run, no one has the "right" to have all major networks OTA. If you think you have it bad, at my parent's house in central WV, they get exactly zero protected signals and only one station in the red with a roof-top antenna.

Dave Loudin

01-22-10, 09:09 AM

On a related note, the FCC has updated the packages of maps that compare analog and digital TV service. Included in the DC metro package is WJLA's 30kW upgrade, but not WUSA's proposed power hike. DC's package is here (http://www.fcc.gov/dtv/markets/maps_current/Washington_DC.pdf) (14.1 MB pdf) and Baltimore's is here (http://www.fcc.gov/dtv/markets/maps_current/Baltimore_MD.pdf) (4 MB pdf).

Sammer

01-22-10, 03:46 PM

Prior to the DTV transition, there was enough room for these stations to generally stay away from full-power fringe areas. Now there is not, and that hurts all parties, as you can tell.
There really should have been two more UHF channels for digital television. Now that CTIA - The Wireless Association has made it publicly known that they really want the spectrum from at least 25 more UHF TV channels expect things to get worse rather than better for antenna TV viewers in the future even if IMHO that's not in the public interest.

aaronwt

01-22-10, 04:19 PM

As OTA viewers become less and less, things will eventually change. People want all that wasted spectrum that 10% of the population receive OTA TV from. And each year fewer people use it.

I wouldn't be surpised in a few years if the government starts offering incentives for TV stations to stop broadcasting OTA to reclaim more spectrum. It's either that or try and push them off.

Trip in VA

01-22-10, 04:21 PM

As OTA viewers become less and less, things will eventually change. People want all that wasted spectrum that 10% of the population receive OTA TV from.

10% of people have only OTA. This number does not take into account people who may have cable or satellite on one set while still retaining OTA sets in other parts of their homes.

- Trip

Kelly From KOMO

01-22-10, 04:42 PM

There was a similar discussion on the Seattle OTA board about the future of OTA viewing. Rather than typing it all over, here is the copied and pasted version:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whidbey
"Interesting. Do we have a right to free TV? Or are we at the mercy of the goodwill of broadcasters?"

Speaking as an industry hack, I wouldn't say you have a 'right' to free over the air TV, especially since most are commercial entities. That being said, broadcasters obviously want you to watch their programming, and will do what is within their power as a licensee to make sure you can.

Really there are several issues afoot here:

OTA transmission systems are expensive to build, maintain and operate. Over the past twenty years, the influx of cable and satellite access has created an assumption on the part of consumers that the only way one can watch TV is via a cable or satellite subscription. In fact, 90% of television viewers nationwide are subscribers to cable or satellite TV. OTA viewership is (depending on the market) between 2 and 10%. With the whole DTV transmission conversion fiasco behind us, I think broadcasters are really looking at the relevance of maintaining OTA systems into the future. The challenge is weighing the costs of maintaining OTA verses the free feed sent to the cable system(s).

Now add in the new administration at the FCC. Recently the new FCC Commissioner commissioned a study from Professor Stuart Benjamin "Roasting the Pig to Burn Down the House" about where to find spectrum for public broadband access. The opinion of the report " (to paraphrase) was that the FCC should just take spectrum away from DTV because not only is local television becoming irrelevant, the use of spectrum from DTV is excessive and unnecessary. A .pdf copy of the 13 page report is available on-line.

Based on the report, last month the FCC suggested that broadcasters consider giving up some of their 6mHz channel to provide space for public broadband. Needless the say most broadcasters were unamused by this proposal, given the fact they had just been required to spend billions on the government-mandated DTV conversion. One of the suggestions by the FCC was some form of profit sharing in markets where broadcasters agreed to give up some of their channel space which could be auctioned off to the highest bidder. The down side for consumers would be the end of HD broadcasting from a station who agreed-to, or were forced to give up a portion of their channel.

So yes, OTA is in jeopardy for the long haul I suppose. If you want free OTA to continue and potentially grow in popularity, both broadcasters and the public need to get out and promote the method. At the same time, if the report boils your blood like it did mine; sit down and write your Congressperson an E-mail, objecting to any proposed alteration of the current TV broadcast band or removal of channel space from existing broadcasters.

In my view, there are hundreds of channels of available-unused spectrum out there reserved for the use of the government and government defense contractors. They should look to that spectrum first before poaching the already crowded broadcast bands.

winchesterdoug

01-22-10, 04:51 PM

You know whats Ironic? I have never had this many problems,complaints, and stressed out nights about ota tv Untill this whole digital upgrade last year. Ota is all I have ever had for over 28 years. And I have never moved outside of my viewing area. This is the first time that I have ever lost major channels due to other stations interferring with the signals. And for what. Because there not in the green shaded areas. I only have one major channel in the green shaded area. Nbc 25. And it's programming isn't always as good as Wrc 4. I get a total nuber of 0 in the yellow shaded area because I can't recieve Abc 42. I get 3 major networks in the red area. I get 5 in the gray now because I lost 45. So you guys think that this is fair? That I should only have one major network channel protected. Unbeleavable. What are people like Gary, Winchesterdoug and I supposed to do now? It's not like We can get major ota channels from another market. Heck were in an area that has baltimore and dc. It has to be one of the better markets to recieve ota to begin with.

All these problems stem from the fact that for some reason the FCC decided back in 1982 to provide opportunities for small low power TV stations to go on the air. There was already, even at that time, a limited amount of broadcast spectrum availability. This potential problem should have been foreseen when they approved the unlimited ability of these LPTV's to start operation. Now we are seeing this mess with all kinds of special interest (actually, what I call "limited interest") stations on the air and preventing people from seeing more widely appealing network affiliate stations. It particularly galls me when you might have two network affiliates - such as the CW WDCW on 50 out of Washington and WNUV CW 54 out of Baltimore- both having their signals blocked and unobtainable because of other stations operating on the same frequency. We already cannot get WDCW 50 out of Washington because of an analog station on 50 in Martinsburg - and now when this WAZW-LD starts using channel 40 - it will prevent those of us in the valley from viewing the only other CW station left to us, which is WNUV CW 54 out of Baltimore. I am also getting quite agitated at all these people attempting to justify what is taking place by saying it is perfectly "allowable" and we basically have "no right" to view these network channels that are 70 or 80 miles away - because they are not right here in our own backyard. Well, duh, we have put up OTA antennas to receive these metro area stations precisely because we do NOT have large network affiliates in our rural areas and we depend on the broadcasts from the D.C. and Baltimore stations. Allowable or not, I personally do not appreciate having my freedom of choice to watch what stations I want to watch (and can receive easily) stymied - simply because someone else wants to set-up their own special interest station and in the process block out reception of a larger well-established station. Yeah, yeah, I know they can do it. But this just a matter of common sense. I have read all the facts and figures and map configurations and everything else that people have posted on here - and all the postings about the FCC regulations - but when it is all said and done- we never had all these problems when I was growing up receiving the metropolitan area TV stations. It was a "given" and we never thought anything about it. Now all of a sudden we have to "justify" and "make a case" as to why we should be able to receive our network affiliate stations out of Washington and Baltimore. The reason is - because we are in rural areas and cannot support our own network affiliates and we depend on those transmissions from the urban areas. This is why it is a critical problem when the FCC allows small LPTV stations to broadcast on the same frequencies as those larger stations and impedes rural viewers ability to receive them. It is not a matter of service contour maps, or projected reception populations or engineering- but it should be a matter of common sense. But I do agree, that when we are fighting for common sense- we are fighting a losing battle.

Sammer

01-22-10, 05:48 PM

We already cannot get WDCW 50 out of Washington because of an analog station on 50 in Martinsburg.
"I feel your pain" but that translator is part of a statewide public broadcasting network and their digital translator is apparently a VHF nightmare. Translator stations have been around since long before 1982 and many of them do provide rural areas reception of major network affiliates. In a more ideal world there would be enough money and an allotment for a full power public broadcasting station in Martinsburg.

systems2000

01-22-10, 08:59 PM

Speaking as an industry hack, I wouldn't say you have a 'right' to free over the air TV, especially since most are commercial entities.
I believe this is a false premise to begin with.

Broadcasters request, and are granted, transmission rights at the discretion of the FCC and those rights are supposed to be for the benefit of the public interest. I would think that implies a form of "right" to the general public. What is going on at the FCC today, is all about acquiring dollars for the Federal programs and greasing the palms of special interest groups.

For sure, the general public has taken OTA Television for granted, while those who understand the implications try to hold the ground. Stations and Networks, especially Networks, need to realize that OTA viewers want good programming and not rehashed crap.

When is the last time a new show was given more than a month to survive?

For myself, I was very disappointed when Threshold was terminated. It was two years before I started watching Smallville and a year before Supernatural. Sometimes it takes awhile for the public to get interested. Personally, I have no interest in most shows being carried by ABC, CBS, or NBC (exceptions are The Big Bang Theory, Two and a Half Men, Castle, The Middle, & Gary Unmarried).

Trip in VA

01-22-10, 10:03 PM

In a more ideal world there would be enough money and an allotment for a full power public broadcasting station in Martinsburg.

In the world of analog, there was an allotment for 44* in Martinsburg. West Virginia PBS never built it, and so that allotment was deleted and the channel used instead for WWPB-DT.

- Trip

dewster1977

01-22-10, 10:53 PM

In the world of analog, there was an allotment for 44* in Martinsburg. West Virginia PBS never built it, and so that allotment was deleted and the channel used instead for WWPB-DT.

- Trip

In the 80's and early 90's West Virginia PBS had their translator on 44 (W44AA), but moved it to channel 50 after asking for a displacement when WWPB-DT was assigned Channel 44 for their digital signal.

I lost both WV PBS on 44 and WBDC on 50, because of this at the time.

dewster1977

01-22-10, 11:08 PM

You know whats Ironic? I have never had this many problems,complaints, and stressed out nights about ota tv Untill this whole digital upgrade last year. Ota is all I have ever had for over 28 years. .

The big problem in "our area" (Western MD, S Central PA, and the WVA Panhandle) is for 50+ years we watched Baltimore or DC, although most of us are outside their DMA, that was what we were able to get (2,4,5,7,9,11,13) without every having to adjust your antenna. (WGAL started on CH 4 and the Harrisburg stations were UHF and didn't carry very far)

I'm in the Harrisburg DMA and none of the major networks are predicted to cover my area, although WHAG an NBC affilate located in the Washington DMA is receivable without an antenna at all.

So because we are not in a stations DMA, they don't have to cover they same area they did in analog, Yet stations in your DMA, don't have to increase their signals to cover their DMA, Makes no sense to me.

I must say that since WJLA and WUSA have increased power they are receivable 95% of the time for me now, I know most are against VHF for digital, but for me the VHF's are my most reliable.

Dave Loudin

01-23-10, 09:21 AM

DMA has nothing to do with this - physics does. The point I've tried to make is there is a limit to how far you can protect stations before requiring tremendous separations that would lead to less service for everyone. That DC/Baltimore TV has been receivable in the Shenandoah Valley, the Eastern Panhandle of WV, and western Maryland is due to geography. If Elkins was a big city and the Allegheny Mountains weren't in the way, you would have grown up with something else. As it is, potential interference from Weston, Wheeling, and Pittsburgh doesn't stand a chance to cause trouble.

Sammer

01-23-10, 01:34 PM

DMA has nothing to do with this - physics does. The point I've tried to make is there is a limit to how far you can protect stations before requiring tremendous separations that would lead to less service for everyone.
DMA may have nothing to do with it from a technical perspective but it sure does from a business perspective. Whether a commercial station challenges such interference is a business decision and what DMA the interference occurs in most definitely does influence that decision. Stations can even hire their own experts and challenge FCC decisions in court.

Potatoehead

01-23-10, 05:22 PM

Saw a message from Comcast today. They will be adding WHUT HD next Thur. Jan. 28th on our system (putting it on ch 202, one of the locations of the SD version of WETA).

Kelly From KOMO

01-23-10, 08:47 PM

DMA may have nothing to do with it from a technical perspective but it sure does from a business perspective. Whether a commercial station challenges such interference is a business decision and what DMA the interference occurs in most definitely does influence that decision. Stations can even hire their own experts and challenge FCC decisions in court.

If you want to dismiss the DMA or technical perspective and look at it from a business perspective, then the fact is no TV station benefits nor is responsible for broadcasting to viewers outside the DMA. Chances are better than 99% that viewers outside a market don't contribute to public stations nor frequent advertisers within the market in which the station serves.

Coolboarder10

01-24-10, 01:42 AM

gary michaels

01-24-10, 07:51 AM

Winchesterdoug
Can you or someone else please tell me when we are going to loose our next channel.
WNUV CW 54 because of WAZW-LD using the same channel 40.
Do you really think it will block out our viewing area just like it has with Wbff 45?
Thanks.
I understand that the C.P. for the ch. 40 transmitter expired on 1-12-10. I did not see an extension filed. The company that runs that station did ask for extension of the ch. 46 transmitter C.P. and did not get it. They cited money problems if I remember correctly. By the way, that group of transmitters are to some degree financed by a "foundation" that is a kind of collective of alleged religious groups. The programming on these stations did at one point have something other than what looks to be paid religious programming, but as of late it looks like bucks for Jesus 24/7. Most of the programming seems to be of the nationally syndicated hell fire and brim stone type from the huge mega church organizations. The whole thing reminds me of a 70's soul song called "stealing in the name of the Lord." Wow, what a great pubic service they are.

winchesterdoug

01-24-10, 09:22 AM

Winchesterdoug
Can you or someone else please tell me when we are going to loose our next channel.
WNUV CW 54 because of WAZW-LD using the same channel 40.
Do you really think it will block out our viewing area just like it has with Wbff 45?
Thanks.

They were slated to use channel 40 (which WNUV 54 uses) - but I do not know the exact time frame when it was to be completed. And, yes, it would definitely have interfered with and blocked us from receiving CW 54 out of Baltimore, which would have left the valley with NO CW affiliate station since CW 50 out of Washington DC is already blocked by an analog station in Martinsburg. I have not seen any further info. about the progress of WAZW taking over 40 for their Front Royal, Va. facility. Hopefully it won't happen or at least be delayed for a while. I have noticed that WBFF Fox 45 has been back on the air here in my area (Winchester, Va.) for the last week or so. I don't know what is up with that, as the signal had been missing since Jan. 5. Let's enjoy it while we can.

Trip in VA

01-24-10, 10:38 AM

That's a good point, the channel 40 permit looks to be past its expiration date without an extension filed. Perhaps they decided to only build out one of the transmitters since the two overlapped so much.

- Trip

uvaeer

01-24-10, 01:21 PM

systems2000

01-24-10, 03:10 PM

winchesterdoug

01-24-10, 05:51 PM

If we can get WDCW to fire-up W51CY, then there would be a CW station, within the valley. That would finally give me ThisTV, especially since WGAL isn't looking to install the Gettysburg transmitter anytime soon and I can't get WBFF or WDCW.

As for WAZW, I have not received a signal from the RF46 transmitter for about a week. I was wondering if they had reduced their power or it had gone off the air.

Who knows what is going on with that station- WAZW. I never did receive a picture from them on channel 46, when they were blocking WBFF Fox 45's signal. It sure has been a real mess though. I have noticed that WBFF and This Network are both back on 46 here at my location, which is Winchester, Va. God knows, how long that will be the case.

Coolboarder10

01-25-10, 02:05 AM

Coolboarder10

01-25-10, 02:08 AM

Oyea Thanks for updating me on the whole channel 40 deal guys. I hope it never ever happens.

gecoffin

01-25-10, 07:37 AM

Big J

01-25-10, 10:10 AM

Live in Woodbridge VA and getting a new LCD TV. I am still on Analog Basic in my area
Should I be able to receive HD on the local network stations
ABC,FOX and by just plugging the cable into the box and not using the
Comcast HD Box

Thanks
Gary
Here in Montgomery County MD, you can get the local HD channels by plugging the cable directly into the TV, assuming it has a QAM tuner. I have one step up from basic, but still all analog, and I get everything I should plus more without a cable box. I assume your situation should be the same.
J

fmw63

01-25-10, 01:55 PM

Who knows what is going on with that station- WAZW. I never did receive a picture from them on channel 46, when they were blocking WBFF Fox 45's signal. It sure has been a real mess though. I have noticed that WBFF and This Network are both back on 46 here at my location, which is Winchester, Va. God knows, how long that will be the case.

How far south would WAZW cause problems? I've been reading about this for a few weeks, and hadn't put 2&2 together... I'm in PG county Md, and a few weeks ago I was trying to scan channels on an old Samsung SIR-TS360 receiver, and I couldn't find CH45. I thought it was just the receiver not being sensitive enough...

Trip in VA

01-25-10, 02:57 PM

Here's a map I made for WAZW-LD:

http://www.rabbitears.info/contour.php?appid=1318489&map=Y

It may load slowly or not at all, as the file is massive.

I plan to make WBFF later in the afternoon and will post here once it's available.

- Trip

Digital Rules

01-25-10, 03:26 PM

How far south would WAZW cause problems?WAZW shouldn't cause any problems east of Haymarket/Leesburg, VA. The transmitter is well south of Winchester in Strasburg.

WBFF should come in well with a proper antenna in Landover Hills.

FCC's WAZW Contour Map (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=LD1352843.html)

winchesterdoug

01-25-10, 04:46 PM

How far south would WAZW cause problems? I've been reading about this for a few weeks, and hadn't put 2&2 together... I'm in PG county Md, and a few weeks ago I was trying to scan channels on an old Samsung SIR-TS360 receiver, and I couldn't find CH45. I thought it was just the receiver not being sensitive enough...

I wouldn't think that WAZW would cause you any problems east of Leesburg, Va. - but who knows. This has all been such a royal mess since they were supposedly going on the air digital - back on Jan. 5 on channel 46 (which is also WBFF Fox 45's digital channel) - through this whole time though, I never have seen a picture on the screen from WAZW-LD. The screen was always "blank" and saying "no signal". It seems all they have managed to do is tie up a frequency used by another much larger station and block out that station's signal. But the FCC evidently approved this - so we have them to thank for this mess.

winchesterdoug

01-25-10, 05:17 PM

Man you guys are lucky. I still can't get WBFF 45 in the daytime at all. If and I mean if everything is perfect I can only get 2 bars or about 25-40 percent signal on a clear night. And it takes me about 5-10 mins to fine tune the outdoor antenna. And the only time period to receive the statoins is after 10pm. My signal used to be 80-90 percent before all of this nonsence. It would be nice for them to fire up channel 50. But since my new hdtv doesn't have an easy add on scan I will have to loose all my channels everytime I go to scan for that station to watch it. Since 50 is in the opposite direction to the DC/Balt stations I watch. Like I have said before. This is all so frustrating compared to the old days.

Hey Coolboarder I am sorry to hear that you still can't pick up WBFF 45. You are in Martinsburg - right? How far is that from Baltimore? I am in Winchester, Va. about 80 miles west of Baltimore. - I have been able to pick up WBFF again for the last week - day and night- about 80% signal strength. It has always been one of my stronger stations. You should be able to receive it too, as you are not that far from me here in Winchester, Va. - I did have to make sure that my outdoor antenna was mounted pretty high up in the air- 30 feet. And I have it aimed directly at the Baltimore transmitters. I assume your antenna is very high up in the air too- right? Because it seems that elevation of the antenna is definitely the key as these UHF signals are "line of sight". - I use an 8-bowtie style UHF antenna - called the DB8 - sold by Antennas Direct - and it has been a very good antenna - pulling in far away stations from Baltimore. I do NOT have a rotator or a mast-mounted pre-amp - as those are just more things to wear out and break down - and 30 ft. is pretty high up, to have to replace things. - but I do have an INDOOR pre-amp that I use, that a friend gave me who works for a cable company (yeah, good one- huh?) - It is called an Electroline "drop amp" and you hook your outside antenna coaxial into the "RF input" jack on the amp and then your coaxial cable into the back of your TV. It provides +15 db to the signal and I suspect this is why I am able to receive those far away Baltimore channels. - I have noticed that it definitely makes a difference. The nice thing is that I can use this pre-amp inside the house next to the TV - and don't have to worry about it being outside in the weather. You might want to try doing this. - They are also sold on the internet- (if you don't know anybody at a cable company). It's called a "Electroline" drop-amp. You can Google it and find them. Hopefully some of these things will work for you. OTA television is a great thing- because cable and satellite is a total rip-off - and we all have to stick together and help each other out with our reception problems. Good luck.

fmw63

01-25-10, 05:51 PM

WAZW shouldn't cause any problems east of Haymarket/Leesburg, VA. The transmitter is well south of Winchester in Strasburg.

WBFF should come in well with a proper antenna in Landover Hills.

Yes. It had been, and the other Baltimore stations, too, except for 24. Just thought it was unusual that I was having problems with it now. I'll look for it again tonight.

winchesterdoug

01-25-10, 06:15 PM

Yes. It had been, and the other Baltimore stations, too, except for 24. Just thought it was unusual that I was having problems with it now. I'll look for it again tonight.

Actually, I am glad to hear that - because people on here kept telling me that as long as it was less than 0.5 per cent of WBFF's viewing area that was being interfered with and blocked - then WAZW was perfectly within their right to broadcast on WBFF's frequency channel of 46. Well, if this was blocking your reception down as far as you live from Winchester- that would certainly be more than 0.5 percent. I don't know anything at all about these regulations and percentages that people kept quoting me. All I know is I was receiving a good strong signal for WBFF Fox 45 out of Baltimore for over a year and then all the sudden it went away- because some low power Christian station decided they wanted to use the same channel (46) that WBFF was broadcasting on. But then this past week I have been able to receive WBFF Fox 45's signal again. Who knows what is going on? I still maintain that the whole thing is ridiculous.

Trip in VA

01-25-10, 07:33 PM

As promised, here's a map for WBFF to go with WAZW-LD's map.

http://www.rabbitears.info/contour.php?appid=1337726&map=Y

- Trip

systems2000

01-25-10, 09:23 PM

WAZW shouldn't cause any problems east of Haymarket/Leesburg, VA. The transmitter is well south of Winchester in Strasburg.

WBFF should come in well with a proper antenna in Landover Hills.

FCC's WAZW Contour Map (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=LD1352843.html)
I don't believe that Contour Map, since TVFool says it is 71.2 miles from my location and a 10.2 dB NM. I received the signal without a problem and did see a static image for a couple of days.

systems2000

01-25-10, 09:36 PM

Trip,

I like how your map shows "RED" reception on the Eastern slopes of the ridges (especially the Eastern slope of the Tuscarora Ridge (West of I-81)), while the valleys and Western slopes not going to have reception.

Trip in VA

01-25-10, 09:41 PM

My maps are run assuming 13 feet rather than the FCC standard of 30 feet. It's designed to better account for indoor reception than the FCC predictions.

- Trip

fmw63

01-25-10, 11:36 PM

Actually, I am glad to hear that - because people on here kept telling me that as long as it was less than 0.5 per cent of WBFF's viewing area that was being interfered with and blocked - then WAZW was perfectly within their right to broadcast on WBFF's frequency channel of 46... But then this past week I have been able to receive WBFF Fox 45's signal again. Who knows what is going on? I still maintain that the whole thing is ridiculous.

Just tried 45 with another receiver, and it comes in pretty well. But, WNUV 54 seems to have disappeared, while I can still get 2, 11, 13, 22, 45 & 67... :eek:

winchesterdoug

01-25-10, 11:36 PM

As promised, here's a map for WBFF to go with WAZW-LD's map.

http://www.rabbitears.info/contour.php?appid=1337726&map=Y

- Trip

The map is interesting, although I admit, I am not sure I understand it. Is the area enclosed in the circle supposed to be just the area that the FCC wants the WBFF 45 signal to be received, or estimates where it will be received, or where they believe it is actually being received? If the station is not supposed to be received outside of this blue circle- then the map is wrong. Because I live in the city limits of Winchester and since WBFF (Fox) and also WNUV (CW) in Baltimore went digital back in February 2009 (they were early in transitioning) -I have received WBFF Fox 45's signal very strong and clear with about 80% signal strength. I have an outside UHF antenna mounted 30 ft. in the air. Are these projected reception areas based on actual practicalities or some engineer's computer model? Because if they are- then they need to get out in the field and actually determine how far some of these digital TV signals do indeed travel. They don't all "fall off a cliff" like so many people love to espouse. But in all fairness though, both WBFF Fox 45 and WNUV CW 54 out of Baltimore are transmitting at much more powerful levels than most of the other stations. I believe it is something like over 800 KW. Whereas some digital stations are transmitting at maybe 30 or 50 KW. This difference in power would indeed make a huge difference in reception areas.

Trip in VA

01-26-10, 02:14 AM

gary michaels

01-26-10, 07:03 AM

The blue line is the FCC's coverage contour. This is the one we keep talking about that is the area protected from outside interference.

The multi-colored map overlay is the computer generated coverage pattern. Bear in mind that I'm running it at 13 feet rather than the FCC standard 30 feet so as to better account for indoor antennas. This means that the map is pessimistic with regard to reception on roof antennas; the red area is not necessarily the end of receivable signal, but should be pretty close without going insane on a tower and whatnot. :)

- Trip
Here we go again. The projected contours are only calculations. The real world is another animal. Many people in the I-81 corridor do receive the signals out of Baltimore and Washington with regularity at usable signal levels, without “going crazy” with antennas and towers. Many of these people do not have cable available to them. What I have seen as demonstrated facts do not parallel the calculations. Below is a list of stations I can receive. I can in some cases get 2 stations on the same channel depending on where I point my antenna. Yes, you can get 2 different digital stations using the same channel or an analog and digital using the same channel, but you must luck out on your location for that. Most of the time if you have 2 stations on the same channel you get nothing.
After 40+ years in the broadcast industry, I can tell you that propagation is an inexact science at best.
RF CHANNEL REGULARLY RECEIVABLE
6 ANALOG WDCN-LP FAIRFAX, VA.
7 WJLA WASHINGTON (7)
7 W07DN-D WARDENSVILLE, WV. (24)
9 WUSA WASHINGTON (9)
10 ANALOG WAZT-CA WOODSTOCK, VA.
11 WBAL BALTIMORE (11)
12 WWPX MARTINSBURG, WV. (60)
13 WJZ BALTIMORE (13)
15 WFDC ARLINGTON, VA. (14)
21 WVPY FRONT ROYAL, VA. (42)
23 ANALOG WDDN-LP WASHINGTON
23 W23DR-D ROMNEY, WV. (24)
24 WNVC FAIRFAX, VA. (30)
26 WHAG HAGERSTOWN, MD. (25)
27 WETA WASHINGTON (26)
28 ANALOG WAZF-CA WINCHESTER, VA.
29 WMPB BALTIMORE (67)
30 WNVT GOLDVEIN, VA. (30)
32 WTAJ ALTOONA, PA. (10)
33 WHUT WASHINTON (32)
34 WPXW MANASSAS, VA.(66)
35 WDCA WASHINGTON (20)
36 WTTG WASHINGTON (5)
38 WMAR BALTIMORE (2)
39 WJAL HAGERSTOWN, MD. (68)
40 WNUV BALTIMORE (54)
41 W41DK-D KEYSER, WV. (24)
42 WMPT ANNAPOLIS, MD. (22)
43 ANALOG W43BP CRESAPTOWN, MD.
44 WWPB HAGERSTOWN, MD. (31)
46 WBFF BALTIMORE (45)
46 WAZW-LD WINCHESTER, VA (46)
47 WMDO-CA WASHINGTON
48 ANALOG WAZW-CA WINCHESTER, VA.
48 WRC WASHINGTON (4)
50 WDCW WASHINGTON (50)
50 ANALOG W50DE MARTINSBURG, WV.

Dave Loudin

01-26-10, 07:33 AM

One more time, a handy reference for the difference between maps.

Contour: Used for initial allocation studies and used to define service areas. Signal propagation calculations factor in only the first 16km of terrain needed to establish antenna HAAT. Advantages: easy to calculate (360 if you calculate for every degree), tends to overestimate (better bias for allocation studies than the alternative) Disadvantages: Terrain blockage, scattering, or any other effects are not accounted for, so NOT APPROPRIATE FOR INDIVIDUAL RECEPTION ASSESSMENT.

Longely-Rice: Used to assess TV signal reception at a point. Point-to-point propagation calculation that uses entire terrain profile along the path. Blockage, scattering, and other effects are accounted for. Advantages: Best method for individual reception assessment. Only way to account for scattering effects of terrain. Disadvantages: Creating a map requires repeating entire path calculation for each point plotted. Accuracy dependent on terrain database resolution and on step size between "pixels," or calculation points. Scary amount of data to toss around.

Another way to look at this: The contour method is a statistical abstraction to quickly portray area coverage that is the next step to accuracy from drawing circles. Longely-Rice is a point-to-point method that can be applied to an area only through brute force.

gary michaels

01-26-10, 07:59 AM

Dave Loudin

01-26-10, 08:16 AM

Is the area enclosed in the circle supposed to be just the area that the FCC wants the WBFF 45 signal to be received, or estimates where it will be received, or where they believe it is actually being received? If the station is not supposed to be received outside of this blue circle- then the map is wrong.

Please, the FCC DOES NOT WANT ANYTHING here except for regulations to be followed. Reception inside the circle, outside the circle, or on the moon depends on how the signals of licensed broadcasters on that channel add up at your location. A station can be received beyond the service area contour, but it is likely not to be with an antenna at 30 feet. Trip's map is an excellent illustration of the points I've been trying to make.

Towards the east, where the terrain is relatively flat, note that along the blue line there is a mix of yellow/red at about 50/50. By moving beyond the line, the mix tends more to the red and by moving inside the line, the mix tends more to the yellow. This is what I mean about abstracting area coverage - the blue line is meant to represent a range where half of receive locations have the contour's signal level.

For azimuths between Dale City and Newark, DE, to the SW to W to NE, the contour is overpredicting coverage, as distant terrain is ignored. Instead of a 50/50 mix of yellow/red, the distribution is more red/blank to entirely blank.

The only place where the contour is underpredicting coverage is on the Potomac River.

Dave Loudin

01-26-10, 08:28 AM

Perhaps what is really needed when it comes to all this discussion about tossing in low power TV stations, is for the F.C.C to do a better job reviewing what "serving the public" means and a closer look at each situation before blindly referring to the current holy books of propagation. I believe many of these "toss ins" were politically motivated by special interest groups that were owed a favor.

This is absolutely false. The "current holy books of propagation" you are sneering at is actually an engineering process built over 50-plus years of building an allocation model that can be uniformly applied across the US and that is supported by neighboring countries. This process has evolved with experience and with the computational resources available.

LPTV is an example of serving the public, as the FCC has been encouraged to equate having more stations to be in the public interest.

fmw63

01-26-10, 12:44 PM

systems2000

01-26-10, 05:00 PM

Winchesterdoug,

You need to do some reading to get better clarity about how DTV works.

Cliff-Effect is the point of RF signal level where the digital decoding device no longer recognizes the data stream in the RF signal and produces the pixalization and black screen you see on you television.

The power level differences between some stations is due to what type of stations they are, where they are located, and what band they are broadcasting in.

Terrain, location, antenna type and height, cabling, CECB or television type, and more will affect whether or not you will receive a particular station. OTA reception is not an exact sience and requires a lot of field engineering and experimentation. It also requires a little knowledge and resignation to what stations will be possible to receive and those that won't.

aaronwt

01-26-10, 07:13 PM

Finally ordered some RG6 to replace the main cable into the house, and was planning to do that Saturday. It should be warm enough for roof work, I thought. Today is 47, Wednesday is supposed to be 51, and then I looked at Saturday's forecast - a high of 28 and snow! :eek: waaaaaaaa :(

Yes a possible major snowstorm is headed our way again. I just wish it wasn't on the weekend. I would rather it be in the middle of the week so I could get off work a couple of days.

EMoMoney

01-26-10, 07:18 PM

Is there a TBS outage in Baltimore City right now? (Comcast)

Dave Loudin

01-26-10, 07:47 PM

To winchesterdoug, coolboarder10, gary michaels, and others out by Winchester and Martinsburg, it would be very useful to see how your reception compares to Longley-Rice predictions. The best way to get accurate calculations that can be easily shared is to use tvfool.com. Click on the "Start Maps" button, enter your zip code and other address bits, then click "map this." You will get a page with a google map with a marker and some prediction data below. Drag the marker to your exact location (surprisingly easy), then update the antenna height to what you have. After the predictions update, click the "make radar plot" button. Use the instructions to share the data with us.

If the net result of your antenna, coax cable, preamp, etc. is zero loss, then you should be able to decode stations listed with an NM of zero or greater. If you're getting results at odds with predictions, then that would be very good to know. The only way to have a chance of getting LPTVs blocking your reception of DC and Baltimore off the air is to show that the FCC's OET-69 methodology for evaluating coverage and interference is seriously underestimating the main station's coverage to you and many others.

By the way, the FCC's process is no mystery. Read all about it here (http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Engineering_Technology/Documents/bulletins/oet69/oet69.pdf).

winchesterdoug

01-26-10, 11:01 PM

Coolboarder10

01-27-10, 12:39 AM

Hey Winchesterdoug
I seem to be getting 45 a lot better as of last night

Coolboarder10

01-27-10, 01:25 AM

I read the fcc info and it's a little to confusing for me.
I used tvfool before I got all of my antenna equiment. Just to make sure that I would be able to recieve the channels I wanted. That way I didn't waste my time and money.
Up untill I lost 45 I was overjoyed. But now that it's back again I couldn't be happier. The only thing that could be better is if I could recieve my channels in 1080p. But that will never happen. I will post my info here from tvfool shortly.

Coolboarder10

01-27-10, 02:10 AM

here is the second letter i recieved from the fcc. The first time i emailed them they didn't even understand my complaint. So I had to resend it reworded differently and hoped that someone else would read it.

You are receiving this email in response to your inquiry to the FCC.

In the license application process, there are very strict engineering studies required before a station can be licensed and begin broadcasting. The studies are designed to prevent interference. In those rare instances when a problem might occur, the station(s) experiencing the problem can often work a cooperative solution.

Conditions of non-reception, poor reception, and/or electrical interference to radio/TV sets do not indicate an FCC rule violation and the FCC will not investigate these conditions.

If you believe a licensed broadcast station's signal is experiencing interference, you may consider contacting the affected station. If the station operator believes an interference condition exists, the operator may contact the FCC.

The FCC will investigate interference complaints SUBMITTED BY BROADCASTERS.

Coolboarder10

01-27-10, 02:19 AM

Trip in VA

01-27-10, 02:35 AM

The FCC will investigate interference complaints SUBMITTED BY BROADCASTERS.

Yep, this is exactly what the FCC told me when I complained about some interference two years ago.

- Trip

Marcus Carr

01-27-10, 02:11 PM

11 Readies New Chopper - 1/27 - Channel 11/WBAL upgrades both chopper and camera system. Sky Team 11 HD to debut soon. In the picture (right), we see 11's old chopper on the right, and the new chopper being equipped on the left. It'll be "HD news from the air for Baltimore," a source tells DCRTV.....

http://www.dcrtv.com/

winchesterdoug

01-27-10, 09:47 PM

Hey Winchesterdoug
I seem to be getting 45 a lot better as of last night

Hey, glad to hear you are getting WBFF Fox 45 much better again. Maybe all this interference from the low power station that was transmitting on channel 46 is behind us (at least for now). Let's hope so. I too, have been receiving Fox 45 and This Network 45.2 regularly for the last week. I read on here the other day from a gentleman that said even his WBFF signal in Landover Hills, Md. had been blocked. If that is indeed the case, then that low power station was even interfering with WBFF's signal in their OWN reception area. I would think that Fox 45 would file an objection to that.

winchesterdoug

01-27-10, 10:02 PM

What makes me mad is that I told them about the 2 stations using the same channel number. And that is the reason why wbff is being blocked out. I also told them that it was a low power station blocking out a high powered station. I have also emailed wbff 3 times and they have never emailed me back.

Yeah, I have written the General Manager at WBFF a letter too, asking what he thought of this whole situation and what WBFF planned on doing about the interference and subsequent blocking of their signal by a low power station. I never received an answer from him either. I personally think it is very poor public relations and just generally a poor business practice to ignore people when they take the time to write you a letter. It says a lot about your company. People on here have told me that WBFF didn't care about it - one way or the other. It seems they were right. - If it happens again and I can't receive WBFF 45 - I will just readjust my antenna toward D.C. and watch WTTG Fox 5 out of Washington DC. - I haven't done this so far, because I don't have a rotator and the antenna has to be adjusted manually and it is 30 feet in the air. But since WBFF doesn't seem to care about this, then I will start watching WTTG 5 the next time their signal goes off for some stupid reason.

Coolboarder10

01-28-10, 01:04 AM

Channel 9 was totally cool when I emailed them last year about there digital transition and what they were going to do with there channel number. They responded the next day. Not only that but also told me about stations 7,11,and 13. I can't beleave how wbff is treating it's viewers. There just like the fcc.

Marcus Carr

01-28-10, 03:48 AM

Comcast has added WHUT HD in Baltimore City.

Dave Loudin

01-28-10, 08:23 AM

I read on here the other day from a gentleman that said even his WBFF signal in Landover Hills, Md. had been blocked. If that is indeed the case, then that low power station was even interfering with WBFF's signal in their OWN reception area. I would think that Fox 45 would file an objection to that.

For the sake of illustration only, if this were the only complaint within WBFF's service area, then that's acceptable (the 0.5% of viewers provision). An excellent depiction of how caused interference could pop up in a service area, look at pages 6 and 7 of WUSA's request (https://licensing.fcc.gov/cdbs/CDBS_Attachment/getattachment.jsp?appn=101349845&qnum=5200&copynum=1&exhcnum=3) (granted) for higher power. See how WUSA's proposal creates interference both near and far to WBPH?

On a related note, the operator of the LP's and Class A's in question had to reveal a bit about their business in order to get an extension of time to build their Luray operation. See the exhibits attached to this (https://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101347125&formid=337&fac_num=14130).

machpost

01-29-10, 08:33 AM

Comcast has added WHUT HD in Baltimore City.

We've had it for about a month on RCN in DC, and it's been a pleasant surprise. After many months of the most bizarre stretching/squeezing/warping of aspect ratios you can imagine, it seems they've gotten things ironed out over there. It's nice to have three different PBS affiliates to choose from now.

VARTV

01-29-10, 08:45 AM

On a related note, the operator of the LP's and Class A's in question had to reveal a bit about their business in order to get an extension of time to build their Luray operation. See the exhibits attached to this (https://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101347125&formid=337&fac_num=14130).Interesting stuff!

Coolboarder10

01-29-10, 01:46 PM

So do you guys think that the wazw ld 46 tower will be back up and working soon? Or do you think that they just don't have the money to keep it on? I hope it never comes back on.

bfdtv

01-29-10, 02:04 PM

I didn't see this mentioned.

RCN in DC is looking for 10-15 people to test a new high-definition TiVo with a 250-320GB hard drive. This TiVo will support VOD and external hard drives, among other enhancements.

To get in on this, send a private message to rcnman (http://www.dslreports.com/profile/806779) over on DSLReports. More details here (http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r23710568-DC-ONLY-Looking-for-Friendly-RCNTiVo-Testers-).

jacindc

01-30-10, 06:25 PM

Comcast has added WHUT HD in Baltimore City.

DC Comcast now, too. Channel 202 (and 802).

winchesterdoug

01-30-10, 07:06 PM

So do you guys think that the wazw ld 46 tower will be back up and working soon? Or do you think that they just don't have the money to keep it on? I hope it never comes back on.

I think that eventually the WAZW-LD 46 will be up and running. But probably not anytime soon, because of the money concerns. But the FCC has indeed licensed them to use 46 - so it is there waiting for them, when they get the money to get started. I still maintain that the whole thing is ridiculous. Why wouldn't the FCC assign WAZW another channel that was used much further away instead of one so close like WBFF Fox 45 in Baltimore. There were others that would not have caused this interference with existing network affiliate stations. It just doesn't make any sense. I am not contacting WBFF 45 anymore about it, as evidently they could care less. If it happens again (the blockage) I will just watch WTTG Fox 5 out of Washington.

tonyd79

01-31-10, 12:00 AM

DC Comcast now, too. Channel 202 (and 802).

Also Howard County. We don't get much here but we got this one.

StevenJB

01-31-10, 12:30 AM

Prior to the June 12th transistion, WGAL-DT8 in Lancaster, PA, was broadcasting on UHF Channel DTV58 using a power of 907kW from a 393m high tower. The transmitter is 69.3 miles from my home. I could on occasion receive this channel during good tropo conditions by aiming my antenna to a direction of 19 degrees. After the transition, WGAL-DT switched to VHF Channel DTV8 using a power of 14.1 kW from a 419m high tower at the same location. I can no longer receive WGAL-DT now that it is using VHF Channel DTV8. Recently, WGAL-DT was approved for a STA power of 32.2kW. The new coverage map now puts me in reasonable contention to receive a WGAL-DT signal now using 32.2kW.

However, there is now one additional potential problem to receiving the increased powered WGAL-DT. WMDO-LD47, a Latino low powered digital channel in NW Washington, DC, now broadcasts on VHF Channel DTV8 using a power of 0.198 kW from a 0.0m high tower. WMDO-LD is 10.6 miles from my home. I can receive this channel reliably 100% of the time by aiming my antenna to a direction of 190 degrees. Reception is about 62-65 on a 100 scale. My question is this. After reading the discussion on WAZW-LD, a low powered a DTV channel causing co-channel interference to Baltimore's WBFF-TV45 over in Winchester, VA, both transmitting on UHF DTV46, will my 100% reliable reception of WMDO-LD prevent me from locking in on WGAL-DT? Remember, I would receive WGAL-DT from a 19 degree direction whereas WMDO-LD would be received at a 190 degree direction, almost two opposite directions.

I don't pretend to understand DTV very well. Back in the good old/bad old days of analog, I would often receive two stations on the same channel during high tropo summer days. I could simultaneously receive Philadelphia and Norfolk on Channel 3, Lancaster and Petersburg/Richmond on Channel 8, Philadelphia and Norfolk on Channel 10, and Wilmington and Richmond on Channel 12. Depending upon how I aimed my antenna, both cities would come in sometimes clearly. But, now this is the digital era. Reception rules have changed. I have read that both channels can completely cancel out each other sometimes or that only one can be received.

Assuming that WGAL-DT's signal is now powerful enough for me to receive under their new STA, will WMDO-LD prevent it from ever appearing for me?