I was under the impression Blu-ray was more expensive to produce, but I had no idea it was 3X the HD DVD cost:

http://www.avn.com/index.php?Primary_Navigation=Articles&Action=View_Article&Content_ID=281960

Could this explain why Blu-ray disks are more expensive?

http://www.avn.com/index.php?Primary_Navigation=Articles&Action=View_Article&Content_ID=281960

Blu-ray is a very expensive process – the investment for a replicator is 10 to 20 times the cost of HD-DVD," Joone continued. "These replicators are nowhere near capacity in their facilities – they have these machines that they paid millions for, and they’re not using them. I’m here to pay full price to get Blu-ray titles done; I went as far as saying, you guys don’t even have to do the silk printing on the disc, I’ll do the art somewhere else, so that internally your employees don’t have to see anything – even though our artwork is not very explicit or hardcore. But every disc stamper puts in an ID showing who stamped the disc, so later on, the replicators could be in trouble. As a replicator you’re in the biz of selling as much time on your machine as possible; their incentive is to pay for these multi-million dollar machines they’ve bought. Even the replication disc cost to me is three times as high as HD. I don’t think the Blu-ray facilities are going to get a lot of people knocking on the door – there’s not much demand, the market is brand-new, and it’s too expensive." Nah, that just a rumour, created out of whole cloth by those HD DVD fanboys.

you can price it on the web, there are plenty of public replicators. overall blu-ray comes out to be about 10 cents more expensive per disc, depending on volume. (like $1.39 vs $1.49 or something, if i remember correctly)

I have no doubt that BD replication is more expensive than HD DVD replication, but wasn't that "10-20 times" the investment to get a line up and running based on the idea of retrofitting existing DVD lines (vs. building new BD lines)? And since HD DVD lines are being created new (rather than retrofitted) doesn't that negate the size of the difference?

Of course the BDA is almost certainly eating royalty payments or something else to help keep prices down for consumers (they said they would at CES 2006) at the moment. On the other hand, as BD replication takes off for the PS3, I'd imagine the cost of manufacturing curve to drop much faster for BDs than HD DVDs.

I was under the impression Blu-ray was more expensive to produce, but I had no idea it was 3X the HD DVD cost:

http://www.avn.com/index.php?Primary_Navigation=Articles&Action=View_Article&Content_ID=281960

Could this explain why Blu-ray disks are more expensive?

If this is true maybe that is why Warner does the combo roms for hd-dvd and then charges five bucks less for the BD release.. Nah

Actully the only place I really see expensive studio BD exclusive's are in BM stores. Usually this can be offset by deals that you find online and even at BM stores once in a blue moon.

Both sides still feed us crappy movies or combo movies and expect the consumer to pay a premium. :eek:

Its the cost of equipment for the replicator of BD discs thats expensive.

The cost of upgrading existing DVD facilities for HD-DVD is minimal by comparison.
(told to me by my local replicator)


More often I'm finding retail BD discs cheaper than HD-DVD discs.

weird.

I think where this line of thought usually leads is someone asks Amir just how many replicators have actually gone the upgrade route vs. dedicated-design hd-dvd equipment, and he never answers. So we are left with the "cost of upgrading" premise at dubious relevance, until it is forgotten about, and until some bright guy brings up the "cost of upgrading" perk anew. Wash...repeat...

I think where this line of thought usually leads is someone asks Amir just how many replicators have actually gone the upgrade route vs. dedicated-design hd-dvd equipment, and he never answers. So we are left with the "cost of upgrading" premise at dubious relevance, until it is forgotten about, and until some bright guy brings up the "cost of upgrading" perk anew. Wash...repeat...Actually I think that finally changed. I don't have the link, but I think the last time he wouldn't answer when they asked if any upgraded lines were used for major studio releases, but when they changed it to asking if there were any upgraded lines in use (or something like that) he answered in the affirmative. Maybe somebody else knows where that conversation is for better specifics.

--Darin

I think post #3 in this thread says most of what needs to be said about the cost differentials.

People in the adult film biz lie through their teeth constantly. If one of these guys ever tried to run a publicly traded company they'd be in jail for securities fraud in no time.

Um, except that some of the porn companies ARE publicly traded:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/porn/business/haveindex.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/11/21/60minutes/main585049.shtml

Warning, not entirely work friendly (albeit no nudity...).

Well, his statement could be true, depending on the size of his run.

Currently, for a quantity of 25,000 discs or, a BD-25 basically costs the same per disc as a HD-30. However, if you start to factor in other costs, the results skew in favor of HD-DVD. For example, for whatever reason, BD setup fees seem to be higher than HD-DVD. I have heard of instances where quoted setup fees were double that of HD-DVD or slightly more. I don't know if the masters are harder to produce, or don't stamp as many copies before needing to be replaced, or what. Or if this is just a way to subsidize the more expensive equipment. Anyway, on a small run of 5,000 discs or fewer, it could be possible for BD to be double the expense of HD...triple seems a stretch. Now if he was comparing HD-30 to BD-50, I think that might be true, but it isn't a fair comparison then.

Also, if he was looking at using MPEG-2 for BD and VC-1 for HD, like some studios currently do, the royalties might factor in to the costs as well... but then it isn't apples to apples either.

I think 2X is stretching it, and 3X would only be if the comparison wasn't apples to apples, or he was quoting a really small run (<5000).

Well, his statement could be true, depending on the size of his run.

Currently, for a quantity of 25,000 discs or, a BD-25 basically costs the same per disc as a HD-30. However, if you start to factor in other costs, the results skew in favor of HD-DVD. For example, for whatever reason, BD setup fees seem to be higher than HD-DVD. I have heard of instances where quoted setup fees were double that of HD-DVD or slightly more. I don't know if the masters are harder to produce, or don't stamp as many copies before needing to be replaced, or what. Or if this is just a way to subsidize the more expensive equipment. Anyway, on a small run of 5,000 discs or fewer, it could be possible for BD to be double the expense of HD...triple seems a stretch. Now if he was comparing HD-30 to BD-50, I think that might be true, but it isn't a fair comparison then.

Also, if he was looking at using MPEG-2 for BD and VC-1 for HD, like some studios currently do, the royalties might factor in to the costs as well... but then it isn't apples to apples either.

I think 2X is stretching it, and 3X would only be if the comparison wasn't apples to apples, or he was quoting a really small run (<5000).
Interesting. 2X is still pretty huge though.

BTW, are there any independent replicators doing BD50 in volume now? Cinram? Does Cinram do porn?

These people will do both hddvd & BD replication.

http://www.proactionmedia.com/hd_br_replication.htm

HD DVD Single Layer Dual Layer
Replication 15GB 30GB
5,000 Discs $1.69 ea $1.99 ea
10,000 Discs $1.55 ea $1.85 ea
25,000 Discs $1.45 ea $1.69 ea
100,000 Discs $1.35 ea $1.55 ea

Blu-Ray DVD Replication Single Layer 25GB
5,000 Discs $1.99 ea
10,000 Discs $1.79 ea
25,000 Discs $1.59 ea
100,000 Discs $1.49 ea

Quotes include printing the label side of the disk.

Now inquire about their *additional setup fees and see how the comparison comes out.

I guess another thing maybe to consider, does it cost more to author a BD disc? I know BD has limited authoring tools unless you do MPEG-2. So does it cost more to author BD using advance codecs? If so, that may add to the original comparison. Or if authoring is only readily available in MPEG-2, it may have forced the content produced to compare prices between a BD50 (using MPEG2) and HD30 (using VC-1). If that is the case, I guess it would make the comparison a bit more fair.

Um, except that some of the porn companies ARE publicly traded:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/porn/business/haveindex.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/11/21/60minutes/main585049.shtml

Warning, not entirely work friendly (albeit no nudity...).

I didn't say "porn", I said "adult film biz". I don't think Playboy makes any hardcore films, obviously they are in a very different category than studios like Vivid. You know who the guys are that I am talking about. They're so used to making stuff up to pump up their stature that they lie like it's nothing. The quote that started this thread being one example.

These people will do both hddvd & BD replication.

http://www.proactionmedia.com/hd_br_replication.htm

HD DVD Single Layer Dual Layer
Replication 15GB 30GB
5,000 Discs $1.69 ea $1.99 ea
10,000 Discs $1.55 ea $1.85 ea
25,000 Discs $1.45 ea $1.69 ea
100,000 Discs $1.35 ea $1.55 ea

Blu-Ray DVD Replication Single Layer 25GB
5,000 Discs $1.99 ea
10,000 Discs $1.79 ea
25,000 Discs $1.59 ea
100,000 Discs $1.49 ea

Quotes include printing the label side of the disk.


They don't do dual layer blu-ray?

These people will do both hddvd & BD replication.

http://www.proactionmedia.com/hd_br_replication.htm

HD DVD Single Layer Dual Layer
Replication 15GB 30GB
5,000 Discs $1.69 ea $1.99 ea
10,000 Discs $1.55 ea $1.85 ea
25,000 Discs $1.45 ea $1.69 ea
100,000 Discs $1.35 ea $1.55 ea

Blu-Ray DVD Replication Single Layer 25GB
5,000 Discs $1.99 ea
10,000 Discs $1.79 ea
25,000 Discs $1.59 ea
100,000 Discs $1.49 ea

Quotes include printing the label side of the disk.

Oh! Oh! Now you've done it ... you posted some verifiable facts about relative pricing ... you'd think this would dispel the "urban myths", but it probably won't.

After reading dozens and dozens of posts in the insider's thread, I really had started to believe that BD replication costs were SUBSTANTIALLY more than HD-DVD.

A percentage point or so compared to the MSRP is neglible.

They don't do dual layer blu-ray?

Doubt it, in the insiders thread it was mentioned that there are only 2 replicators that make 50's

IIRC Additional setup fees are much higher for BD and AACS and rommark must go through a central clearinghouse for data conversion.

The prices above are only the running variable cost per unit and don't include the fixed cost per run. Those fixed costs are much higher for Blu-ray than HD DVD.

Anybody ever here price out a job from a local printer and have to sonsider setup charges? There MUCH higher for BD than HD DVD.

IIRC Additional setup fees are much higher for BD and AACS and rommark must go through a central clearinghouse for data conversion.

The prices above are only the running variable cost per unit and don't include the fixed cost per run. Those fixed costs are much higher for Blu-ray than HD DVD.

Anybody ever here price out a job from a local printer and have to sonsider setup charges? There MUCH higher for BD than HD DVD.

Link please? I'd like to also quanity what "much" or "MUCH" higher actually means ...

Oh! Oh! Now you've done it ... you posted some verifiable facts about relative pricing ... you'd think this would dispel the "urban myths", but it probably won't.

After reading dozens and dozens of posts in the insider's thread, I really had started to believe that BD replication costs were SUBSTANTIALLY more than HD-DVD.

A percentage point or so compared to the MSRP is neglible.

Uh You did notice that was comparing HD30 to BD25 right? Nobody has ever said that BD25 was going to be much more expensive. BD50 is however substantially more. Those prices don't also include setup costs which are substantially more. Another replicator has free setup on larger orders of HD DVD but no such deal on BD. Wonder why?

So your argument is that BD25 while 16% smaller is close to the cost of HD DVD. This does not include the fact that HD DVD replication is more widespread (hence more competition, lower prices) and has lower setup cost. Big win for Bluray!

Oh! Oh! Now you've done it ... you posted some verifiable facts about relative pricing ... you'd think this would dispel the "urban myths", but it probably won't.

After reading dozens and dozens of posts in the insider's thread, I really had started to believe that BD replication costs were SUBSTANTIALLY more than HD-DVD.

A percentage point or so compared to the MSRP is neglible.What I find so fascinating is that price list from Proaction Media has been bouncing around this forum for the last six months, and I haven't heard of a single BD title produced there.

Also fascinating is that if you google search "Blu Ray Replication", the absolute FIRST entry to come up is Proaction media; one is literally two clicks away from seeing that price list. Why is it so popular, I wonder?

And yet all these companies in the adult video industry searched far and wide for someone willing to replicate their BD discs, and came up empty.

Yet there is this replicator that people not involved in the industry can find in two seconds.

Amazing really. :rolleyes:

Indeed.

That's because those Proaction media prices are well above what these adult industry types would want to pay. Just know that Disney and Universal are paying a lot less than those prices for their respective BD and HD DVD presses, and I think the 'outrageous' high price of BD will start to come into perspective.

For what it's worth also, I've asked the MS crew here directly several times what the cost difference between the two actually is as a multiple of HD DVD replciation costs, and have never received an answer.

Proactionmedia's prices are definitely only for the poor studios who cannot afford the million disk business that the big studios can guarantee. Meaning disney & fox's replication costs are lower.

All the fixed costs of authoring or tooling (which I don't have, but I doubt can be that significant) becomes tiny compared to the costs associated with marketing a movie release.

We must all know by now that TV commercials or full page ads in magazines are not cheap right?

If you're only going to make 5000 disks, then yes, the cost to pay a compressionist and authoring house for use of their facilities and expertise in making a disk for you is going to be a problem. And the setup costs could differ, but for any volume product, this is not an issue.

Unless someone is picking up the cost for you, or you have tools in house that can author and deliver the DLT tape, then your adder per disk will be high.

None of the top 1000 movies we are talking about would fall into that category.

----

I don't have trouble with arguing that manufacturing costs should be reduced --- that's an engineering problem and can be solved over time.

What I have a lot of trouble with is the obfuscation that goes on in here about hidden imaginary gigantic costs when in reality the per unit costs are all in front of us. What the heck are we talking about here?
----

If by authoring we mean create a simple movie with MPEG2 HD streams from a HDV edited using standard tools like Ulead. The authoring costs including menus are the cost required to get something like DVDIt! HD Pro.

Now, if you want advanced codecs or multi-angles (presumably because multiple angles are useful for some content) or various audio tracks and some strange yet to be defined interactive features (do people really care for the director's commentary or the actresses blow by blow accounts in a popup for the content we are talking about here?), I agree you need help from experts.

What I have a lot of trouble with is the obfuscation that goes on in here about hidden imaginary gigantic costs when in reality the per unit costs are all in front of us. What the heck are we talking about here?


Since the costs are right in front of us.....
What is the cost per disc on BD50 in a run of say 100K, 250K and 1 million discs?

Is it the same as BD25? Doubtful. We can't even find out from proactionmedia because the secrets of BD50 are know to only a few replicators and none of them provide public information. We know what the upper limit is on cost for HD30 but we have no idea what it is for BD50.

What if those costs are being subsidized? Obviously it is easier to subsidize 10K copies then it is 1 million copies. Eventually BD or HD DVD will hit mainstream and movies will sell 1+ million copies. Will we see the true price of BD50 then? Will limited replication capacity mean more and more movies get shoved to B25? Will BD50 have to sell at a premium or will the studios just take the hit?

These are all things we don't know because BD50 is a secret. We know the real world costs (upper limit) for DVD, HD15, HD30, BD25. What we don't know if how much BD50 costs without subsidy. If tomorrow proaction media offered BD50 replication at $3.90 per disc would you be worried?

Agreed, we don't know the costs of BD50 other than that the studios are offered BD50 "at the same price" as BD25 --- whatever that means.

Meaning whatever the cost is, Sony is charging the big studios the same.

Do I believe that it is higher now? Definitely. Do I believe that it is $3.00? I don't believe that unless their yields are below 50% of the BD25, and from what is reported and the amount of BD50 content now flooding the market, I seriously doubt that scenario.

The point is that whatatever that cost is today, they are going down with volume because as time goes on, yields improve, processes get streamlined, and eventually the only factor on cost per unit is really raw materials and how many disks can be run within a fixed period of time.

For what it's worth also, I've asked the MS crew here directly several times what the cost difference between the two actually is as a multiple of HD DVD replciation costs, and have never received an answer.
I don't personally have good real-world numbers on that, actually. Why do you think I'm reading this thread :).

I've heard the same "much higher" from multiple folks who would know. Like 5x more for BD. But I haven't seen current quotes for a real project, without subsidzation, recently.

I don't personally have good real-world numbers on that, actually. Why do you think I'm reading this thread :).

I've heard the same "much higher" from multiple folks who would know. Like 5x more for BD. But I haven't seen current quotes for a real project, without subsidzation, recently.

Welcome to Irrelevance :)

EOM

Plonk !!

b2b

I don't personally have good real-world numbers on that, actually. Why do you think I'm reading this thread :).

I've heard the same "much higher" from multiple folks who would know. Like 5x more for BD. But I haven't seen current quotes for a real project, without subsidzation, recently.

Ok, fair enough. I'll absolve you of your previous radio silence on the matter then, sorry for sounding accusatory.

That said, I imagine that 5x more you heard was for BDDL : HDDL vs BDSL : HDDL, yeah? And I also hope that it's not from that same replicator who told Amir that BD50 was science fiction and never going to happen. ;)

For what it's worth also, I've asked the MS crew here directly several times what the cost difference between the two actually is as a multiple of HD DVD replciation costs, and have never received an answer.

I work down the street from the Coca Cola headquarters. Do you think they would tell their neighbor here how much difference there is in the cost of producing Coke versus Pepsi. I reckon not.

-Byrd

1. ProActionMedia doesn't replicate Blu-ray. They farm it out, and you can count the shops that do the work on two fingers, sometimes one. The setup fees aren't baked in their price list; an optical master for Blu-ray is an expensive job, requiring a PTR-3000, itself an extremely expensive piece of equipment.

2. Right here, right now, there's still only one company that can do production BD50. Sony DADC. Soon, likely very soon, there will be two, as Cinram's first line comes up to speed.

Amillians I know you came into this thread mostly to chime in with those facts to get them on the table, but while you're here, do you have any insights into what the BDSL vs HDDL pressing costs might be in comparison to one another?

BDDL I guess needs to be left off of here because no one's really going to know, and it's subsidized anyway (which is a good thing of course!)

Amillians I know you came into this thread mostly to chime in with those facts to get them on the table, but while you're here, do you have any insights into what the BDSL vs HDDL pressing costs might be in comparison to one another?

BDDL I guess needs to be left off of here because no one's really going to know, and it's subsidized anyway (which is a good thing of course!)

The only real information on HD-DVD replication I have found is here..

http://www.oto-online.com/pdf/oto_download/2006/10/OTO_October_P55-58_EMX.pdf

It goes into how hard it is to make the 30/9 HD-DVD combo discs (the discs that Universal said will make up 90% of their 2007 releases).

After reading that article and with Warner coming up with the Total HD disc format, I really don't believe that discs costs are a factor to either side. BD-25GB discs should be getting close to the costs of 30GB-DL HD-DVD discs very soon.

b2b

What I find so fascinating is that price list from Proaction Media has been bouncing around this forum for the last six months, and I haven't heard of a single BD title produced there.

can I ask you where each BD movie and each HD DVD was replicated? Don't you think it is more funny that a bunch of people are such fanatics that even though this person can't get a quote to replicate their disks they still know that BD is 3x more expensive? The same replicator won't say yes to DVD, HD DVD and no to BD. This is the classic case of FUD being passed around.

Studio X to rep1: can we have a quote for some BDs?
rep1: No sorry we won't do porn
Studio X to rep2: can we have a quote for some BDs?
rep2: No we only do HD DVD, BD is way too expensive. It will be 3x your cost and BD is not allowed to do porn. Stop looking for it and buy our HD DVDs.

But I haven't seen current quotes for a real project, without subsidzation, recently.

so give us the subsidized cost and the amount of the subsidy, we can do the math

http://gear.ign.com/articles/759/759068p1.html


IGN: Vivid announced recently that they're going to do a Blu-ray release. What's the deal with that?

Joone: We're not sure if they've really got a replicator or a $20,000 machine that will let you burn them in quantity. The market isn't that big so you could spend a weekend burning a few hundred and them bam, you have a Blu-ray title out. I don't know, they're saying they have a Blu-ray release but I have yet to find a replicator that will make the discs. As a replicator, your business is to have something to replicate. They should want customers. Within the industry I think of our stuff as the safest to work with. We're the only company with a cross-over release (Pirates). There's less of a stigma to it than anything else.

IGN: So was the experience of replicating HD-DVD much easier?

Joone: Much easier. HD-DVD is producer friendly. You can use mostly the same manufacturing and maintain the same pricing. It's easier for everyone to get into it. For comparison, a Blu-ray disc comes in at about $2.50 replicated from a $5,000 glass-master. HD-DVDs cost about $1.10 and a $2,500 glass-master. For me to duplicate 1,000 pieces, one will cost $10,000 and the other will cost $5,000. For such a new format HD-DVD is much easier to get into.

Joone: Much easier. HD-DVD is producer friendly. You can use mostly the same manufacturing and maintain the same pricing. It's easier for everyone to get into it. For comparison, a Blu-ray disc comes in at about $2.50 replicated from a $5,000 glass-master. HD-DVDs cost about $1.10 and a $2,500 glass-master. For me to duplicate 1,000 pieces, one will cost $10,000 and the other will cost $5,000. For such a new format HD-DVD is much easier to get into.

[Joone from the AVN article]Even the replication disc cost to me is three times as high as HD. I don’t think the Blu-ray facilities are going to get a lot of people knocking on the door – there’s not much demand, the market is brand-new, and it’s too expensive."

Not sure I believe Joone at all any more. Is it 3 times as much, or just over twice as much? His math in his own quote does not even work: 1000*$1.10 + $2,500 = $3600 (not $5,000) while 1,000 * $2.50 + $5,000 = $7,500 (not $10,000). At $49.95, he could certainly choose to release a $54.95 Blu-ray disc and more than cover his cost difference.

/carmi

I think we all can assume that currently Blu-ray discs cost more to master and replicate than HD DVD discs. No one is arguing that HD DVD costs more than Blu-ray. Its a question of how much more and if the cost makes a difference.

Total HD discs with a Blu-ray and HD DVD side will cost more than either format alone. Combo HD DVD/DVD discs will cost more than HD DVD alone.

If Sony is subsidizing the cost for the major studios for another three years, then that extra cost is not a factor in studio decison making at the moment. But it matters for other smaller content providers , the adult industry here is the canary in the coalmine.

I think that HD DVD will be easier for small companies (non major studios) to use because of the potential larger number of replication facilities, the capability of those HD DVD machines to also produce DVDs, the lower setup costs and the lower cost per disc produced. For a smaller producer , pennies matter in the decision to release a title.

No one is arguing here that Blu-ray is cheaper. As long as HD DVD is cheaper it has some advantage, at least with the smaller content providers.

One of the really appealing things about HD DVD to me is the potential for shifting the entire DVD ecosystem to HD DVD. That will never be the case for Blu-ray, or it will take much longer. But if HD DVD dominates, a lot of replicators might ease into HD DVD production. HD DVD just seems to me to be a way to get far more HD content sooner into the marketplace from smaller production runs and niche markets.

I have no doubt that BD replication is more expensive than HD DVD replication, but wasn't that "10-20 times" the investment to get a line up and running based on the idea of retrofitting existing DVD lines (vs. building new BD lines)? And since HD DVD lines are being created new (rather than retrofitted) doesn't that negate the size of the difference?

Of course the BDA is almost certainly eating royalty payments or something else to help keep prices down for consumers (they said they would at CES 2006) at the moment. On the other hand, as BD replication takes off for the PS3, I'd imagine the cost of manufacturing curve to drop much faster for BDs than HD DVDs. Any HD DVD lines can be shifted back and forth to DVD production so there is or would be less risk for a replication facility to buy them.

In a sense right now all new DVD machines purchased come with the bonus of also being able to produce HD DVDs. Blu-ray machines are not dual use and are Bluray only.

HD DDV machines probably cost less than the Blu-ray ones which need the spin cost etc capability, but not 10 times less. Upgrading lines is also a way to greatly increase HD DVD production for smaller content providers. If HD DVD explodes other replicators might take up on that upgrade option.

...
there's still only one company that can do production BD50. Sony DADC.
...

Sony DADC - welcome to hell! --- They used to be notoriously bad in Laserdisc production (most of the rotters where pressed by them in the old days). I hope this time they'll do better. I wonder what their yield rates are? ...

1. ProActionMedia doesn't replicate Blu-ray. They farm it out, and you can count the shops that do the work on two fingers, sometimes one. The setup fees aren't baked in their price list; an optical master for Blu-ray is an expensive job, requiring a PTR-3000, itself an extremely expensive piece of equipment.

2. Right here, right now, there's still only one company that can do production BD50. Sony DADC. Soon, likely very soon, there will be two, as Cinram's first line comes up to speed.Alex, thank God you are here. :)

I am setting the price for BD25... $6.*

BD-50... $12. Otherwise, why would Sony not included it into Talladega Nights?

Anyone want to prove otherwise? If so, prove your case.

BTW -Asuuming HD-DVD = $2.00

*of course there are mastering cost, which for BD are at about $40,000 per title...

Anyone want to say different? If not then Sony is in for a world of hurt...

These people will do both hddvd & BD replication.

http://www.proactionmedia.com/hd_br_replication.htm

HD DVD Single Layer Dual Layer
Replication 15GB 30GB
5,000 Discs $1.69 ea $1.99 ea
10,000 Discs $1.55 ea $1.85 ea
25,000 Discs $1.45 ea $1.69 ea
100,000 Discs $1.35 ea $1.55 ea

Blu-Ray DVD Single Layer
Replication 25GB
5,000 Discs $1.99 ea
10,000 Discs $1.79 ea
25,000 Discs $1.59 ea
100,000 Discs $1.49 ea

Quotes include printing the label side of the disk.

---

If the whole issue is that someone wants to make only 1000 disks and then complain about costs, then the reason why Vivid does not appear to worry about the cost is simple : It could be Vivid is making runs of greater than 1000 disks (you think?). Perhaps Vivid usually sells more disks than DP? Not that I would know who these guys or their actors are.

To calculate your per unit cost because your business is based on doing a 1000 unit run, that's so mickey mouse I'm not sure how applicable that is to the real porn industry. I just can't believe people can build a multi-billion industry over 1000 run titles. The numbers don't make sense to me.

I didn't know before what units were involved in this, but after reading the above IGN article, it seems like some porn executive is complaining that noone would give him the time of day when he asked for help to produce his disks.

Ok, it appears he was talking about 1000 disks a title. Assuming a pressing house even makes 50c/disk of margn, 50c X 1000 = $500. Meanwhile, the prudes in the industry express approval.

Does anyone wonder why noone takes him seriously? Who in the replication industry will go to all that trouble and grief over $500? If you want to get their attention, start with 50,000 or even 10,000 unit runs and you might get on their radar.

These people will do both hddvd & BD replication.

www.proactionmedia.com/hd_br_replication.htm

.Can you read at all the posts that have come before you? BD supporters scare me...

Sony DADC - welcome to hell! --- They used to be notoriously bad in Laserdisc production (most of the rotters where pressed by them in the old days). I hope this time they'll do better. I wonder what their yield rates are? ...You a player in the business?

can I ask you where each BD movie and each HD DVD was replicated? Procation Media does not produce BD-ROM. They farm it out to DADC. So DADC has been publishing their erroneous "prices" to Proaction Media. How much more simple can we make it for you? I told you this 4 months ago.

4 months is a long time. There are many other BD replication house, and I really mean many (google), most do not post their prices and instead gives an email or phone contact.

I don't call these people up to get them excited about a ficticious 100,000 unit order, but proactionmedia is indeed quoting 1.49 for 100,000 disks. If someone shows up with a DLT and asks for 100,000 disks, they could add a setup fee, but they are not going to suddenly ask for 300,000 to finish the job.

Between a replication house website that posts a verifiable quote of 1.49 and your madeup $6.00 and $12.00, I would tend to believe the 1.49 number more.

You a player in the business?

I have some insight into chip production (enough to know that error rate is sometimes the ultimate factor if it comes to pricing). But no, I'm not a DVD or LD production insider. My remark was solely because of their bad reputation in LD production and I really hope they get their act together this time.

I think you guys are discussing two different issues here. One is the cost of setting up a BD replication line (you know, equipment and all) vs an HD DVD line. The other is the price that replicators are charging end users to replicate discs. I have no doubt that they are making significantly smaller margins on their BD replication at this time. The pricing is due to market factors (especially since Sony is probably "low-balling" pricing now to stimulate the market).

But it's a no-brainer that HD DVD would be much cheaper at this time for the replication facility due to being able to use existing DVD replication facilities as opposed to BD requiring all new equipment.

Eric

These people will do both hddvd & BD replication.

http://www.proactionmedia.com/hd_br_replication.htm

HD DVD Single Layer Dual Layer
Replication 15GB 30GB
5,000 Discs $1.69 ea $1.99 ea
10,000 Discs $1.55 ea $1.85 ea
25,000 Discs $1.45 ea $1.69 ea
100,000 Discs $1.35 ea $1.55 ea

Blu-Ray DVD Single Layer
Replication 25GB
5,000 Discs $1.99 ea
10,000 Discs $1.79 ea
25,000 Discs $1.59 ea
100,000 Discs $1.49 ea

Quotes include printing the label side of the disk.

---

If the whole issue is that someone wants to make only 1000 disks and then complain about costs, then the reason why Vivid does not appear to worry about the cost is simple : It could be Vivid is making runs of greater than 1000 disks (you think?). Perhaps Vivid usually sells more disks than DP? Not that I would know who these guys or their actors are.

To calculate your per unit cost because your business is based on doing a 1000 unit run, that's so mickey mouse I'm not sure how applicable that is to the real porn industry. I just can't believe people can build a multi-billion industry over 1000 run titles. The numbers don't make sense to me.

I didn't know before what units were involved in this, but after reading the above IGN article, it seems like some porn executive is complaining that noone would give him the time of day when he asked for help to produce his disks.

Ok, it appears he was talking about 1000 disks a title. Assuming a pressing house even makes 50c/disk of margn, 50c X 1000 = $500. Meanwhile, the prudes in the industry express approval.

Does anyone wonder why noone takes him seriously? Who in the replication industry will go to all that trouble and grief over $500? If you want to get their attention, start with 50,000 or even 10,000 unit runs and you might get on their radar.
You forget about the mastering costs, which supposedly are significantly higher for Blu-ray. The disc stamping costs are not really the main issue. (I'm ignoring BD50 for the time being.)

I think Joone may be milking his predicament for all it's worth, but nonetheless it doesn't make it look good for any small publisher wanting to do Blu-ray. This goes double for anyone wanting to do any content that some might consider objectionable, whether it is porn or not.

Just know that Disney and Universal are paying a lot less than those prices for their respective BD and HD DVD presses

How about some actual numbers since you claim to know?

Any HD DVD lines can be shifted back and forth to DVD production so there is or would be less risk for a replication facility to buy them.

not any, just the new ones, but then again that is why replicators are doing the replace instead of upgrade.

Either way from an ROI perspective it is a loss. If a line is just used for DVD then it was a bad investment for the replicator because HD DVD lines cost more, yes if they make DVDs it is not as bad as being idle, but it is still a bad investment or a worst one.

Can you read at all the posts that have come before you? BD supporters scare me...

Procation Media does not produce BD-ROM. They farm it out to DADC. So DADC has been publishing their erroneous "prices" to Proaction Media. How much more simple can we make it for you? I told you this 4 months ago.

with each post you make yourself look worst.

Does it matter if they do the replication or if Sony or Techgnicolor or Cinram or......; do it for them? If they take a command, they will deliver it. If they charge X then it is a safe bet they were charged <X by the real replicator (if not them). Either way if they do the replication themselves or someone else is running the machinery we have a good idea of BD replication prices

PS if it was Sony that is doing there would be a good chance that they would have the DL on there as well.

But it's a no-brainer that HD DVD would be much cheaper at this time for the replication facility due to being able to use existing DVD replication facilities as opposed to BD requiring all new equipment.

no brainer for someone without a brain or someone that reads the BS posted here by some.

1) DVD lines cannot produce HD DVDs they can only produce DVDs
2) DVD lines can be retooled to produce HD DVDs, that is cheaper but the replicators that have talksed said it is not a viable option because they can't replicate DVDs and they are extremely bad at replicating HD DVDs and that in around a year the cost difference of a new line is justified
3) New HD DVD lines are just slightly cheaper then new BD lines

the only real advantage is that , as far as I know, nedw BD lines can't do DVD but new HD DVD lines can. So a replicator that is sure HD DVD wioll ake off and needs new lines today can buy HD DVD lines instead of DVD and use their DVD property today until HD DVD takes off.

You forget about the mastering costs, which supposedly are significantly higher for Blu-ray. The disc stamping costs are not really the main issue. (I'm ignoring BD50 for the time being.)

don't forget the same machine can be used to make a BD master and an HD DVD master. I find it hard to beleive doing the same thing on the same machine will cost so much more because it is BD instead of HD DVD

I think Joone may be milking his predicament for all it's worth, but nonetheless it doesn't make it look good for any small publisher wanting to do Blu-ray. This goes double for anyone wanting to do any content that some might consider objectionable, whether it is porn or not.

I think he just got some bad info from his HD DVD replicator. Obviously someone is replicating BD porn, Vivide and some Japanese http://www.glayz.co.jp/glayz.html
I think his replicor got scared that he might lose the contract if DP went BD, if the other replicator can also do HD DVD that makes it even more obvious

So what have we found out from this thread?

We still don't know how much DL BD costs.

We believe that Proaction and possibly other replicators farm out their BD replication facilities. Helps explain the situation with adult content.

We don't know if the prices quoted for SL BD by Proaction are indeed subsidized.

For those that rely on Sony DADC to replicate BD, it's likely that Sony won't allocate them any DL BD which would explain their not having pricing, at this stage it is likely the DL BD are allocated to major studios first.

I'm tired...

Cheers...
Duy-Khang Hoang

I work down the street from the Coca Cola headquarters. Do you think they would tell their neighbor here how much difference there is in the cost of producing Coke versus Pepsi. I reckon not.


Coca Cola hasn't repeatedly proclaimed that their production costs are significantly lower, and therefore they have the product which will push Pepsi out of the winner-take-all market.

So what have we found out from this thread?

We still don't know how much DL BD costs.

We believe that Proaction and possibly other replicators farm out their BD replication facilities. Helps explain the situation with adult content.

We don't know if the prices quoted for SL BD by Proaction are indeed subsidized.

For those that rely on Sony DADC to replicate BD, it's likely that Sony won't allocate them any DL BD which would explain their not having pricing, at this stage it is likely the DL BD are allocated to major studios first.

I'm tired...

Cheers...
Duy-Khang Hoang

there must be a reason for that :D

there must be a reason for that :D

Yes, Sony don't want their competitors to know pricing strategies, which is why they have never released numbers on how much any of their stuff costs to make.

I noticed that Warners said that their THD format would not be "materially" more expensive than either HD DVD or Blu-ray separately.

I think that the costs of manufacturing on all of these disks is considered to be irrelevant by the studios. Any differences that exist today are assumed to be temporary anyway.

Whether or not HD-DVD is cheaper to produce or not, with studios saying they are going to make their releases HD-DVD/DVD combos, only jacks the price up and defeats any cheaper cost compared to Blu-ray in the end.

Example (Amazon prices): The Departed
HD-DVD/DVD combo: $27.95
Blu-ray: $23.95

Maybe combos are great to provoke future HD-DVD owners, but for current owners, it's an unnecessary added cost (*ahem* Universal 90% combos for 2007).

But current HD DVD owners (should) think about the future of the format are realize anything that helps attract more consumers is good, even if it costs them a few dollars extra.

I noticed that Warners said that their THD format would not be "materially" more expensive than either HD DVD or Blu-ray separately.

I think that the costs of manufacturing on all of these disks is considered to be irrelevant by the studios. Any differences that exist today are assumed to be temporary anyway.Of course THD will be more expensive.Haven't we already learned BD is more expensive than HD DVD? Why would both be "no additional cost"? And why do you think that Time Warner said that their THD format would not be "materially" more expensive than either HD DVD or Blu-ray separately

United States Patent Application (http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=%2220060179448%22.PGNR.&OS=DN/20060179448&RS=DN/20060179448) "The disc of claim 1 wherein the first data layer conforms to an HD-DVD protocol and said second data layer conforms to a BD protocol."

Companies will say or do anything to get their format used by others. It is a bunch of BS. They are now hiding from you the consumer the real costs of manufacture. After format wins, then they jack up royalty prices. Warner holds the patent on the dual format disc. Do you know that royalty apportionments have not been settled yet amongst blu ray "essential" patent holders? It's all a bait and switch.

no brainer for someone without a brain or someone that reads the BS posted here by some. Nice personal attack, anthony. I think you have outdone yourself.

1) DVD lines cannot produce HD DVDs they can only produce DVDsKind of like saying VHS tape duplication can only produce VHS tapes, not S-VHS tapes, right? :rolleyes:

2) DVD lines can be retooled to produce HD DVDs, that is cheaper but the replicators that have talksed said it is not a viable option because they can't replicate DVDs and they are extremely bad at replicating HD DVDs and that in around a year the cost difference of a new line is justifiedAnthony, replicators have spoken out about BD. They prefer HD DVD - it is cheaper.

3) New HD DVD lines are just slightly cheaper then new BD lines

the only real advantage is that , as far as I know, nedw BD lines can't do DVD but new HD DVD lines can. So a replicator that is sure HD DVD wioll ake off and needs new lines today can buy HD DVD lines instead of DVD and use their DVD property today until HD DVD takes off.OK. Call us when you are ready.

Kind of like saying VHS tape duplication can only produce VHS tapes, not S-VHS tapes, right?
I know it is obvious but then again if you paid attention you would have seen someone said that DVD lines can produce HD DVDs. So me pointing out he is wrong is a correction. You having an issue with me pointing out the obvious to someone not bright enough to realize it shows how biased you have become.

I know it is obvious but then again if you paid attention you would have seen someone said that DVD lines can produce HD DVDs. So me pointing out he is wrong is a correction. Do you really know he is wrong?

You having an issue with me pointing out the obvious to someone not bright enough to realize it shows how biased you have become.I think the people buying these things are what is important. Which shows how detached you have become.

But current HD DVD owners (should) think about the future of the format are realize anything that helps attract more consumers is good, even if it costs them a few dollars extra.

Yeah, you're right, and I agree. But someone who's already bought into the format should have a choice whether or not to purchase a combo. Why would they need the SD-DVD?

Do you really know he is wrong?

that a regular DVD line can make blue laser HD DVDs? yes.
I think the people buying these things are what is important. Which shows how detached you have become.

what the he!! are you talking about? It wasn't anyone in the business but a guy posting on the forum that said every DVD line can produce HD DVDs. I pointed out they can't and you said why did I point out the obvious and I replied because someone posted something wrong and it needed correcting.

Joone's statements confirm many opinions that there is indeed a subsidy system at work in the Bluray "system".

Clearly, his studio did not have the "blessing" within Bluray, so was unable to access this subsidy - and so the only prices he could get looks like they reflected the true cost. Approved studios, I'm sure, are enjoying the benefits of the subsidised price already.

I wonder when he went public, how fast he got some phone calls giving him access to the lower subsidised costs! :)

This is a very big deal, I think, and should be pursued. If this subsidy is selective, big anti-trust issues could be raised.

rdjam. You are missing one BIG thing in your conspiratie. He does not have a replication contract. If a legit replicator did give im real prices, it was not real prices to replicate his content.

If a legit replicator did give him real prices, it was not real prices to replicate his content.
This is rather confusing.

You mean to say it was probably the lower subsidized price or the higher none subsidized price?
Or a very high "bullshit" price, or a very low "make BD look good price"?

rdjam. You are missing one BIG thing in your conspiratie. He does not have a replication contract. If a legit replicator did give im real prices, it was not real prices to replicate his content.
What exactly are you trying to say here - it seems as though you've gotten confused while trying to confuse?

Are you saying that he would be given false pricing if he doesn't have a contract to replicate? That somehow he would be operating at a disadvantage if he is not an "approved replicator" with one of these "contracts"?

Doesn't this reinforce my statement that there appears to be a "special" subsidised price that is not available to all? - along with the previously mentioned anti-competitive questions?

This is a very big deal, I think, and should be pursued. If this subsidy is selective, big anti-trust issues could be raised.

The whole anti-trust term is thrown around way too loosely.

The only way this would even remotely be an anti-trust argument is if Sony also owned a large pornographic studio, HD-DVD didn't exist, Blu-Ray was the de facto standard for hi defintion content, and Sony owned all the replication equipment for Blu-ray discs. Then and only then could Sony truly control the production of all hi-definition porn content in the world.

Then and only then could they truly make it impossible for someone to compete in the market. Right now, Joone has a way out and he took it. He took his material to a competing format which by most accounts is leading or neck and neck with Blu-ray. This IS NOT even remotely an anti-trust issue.

What exactly are you trying to say here - it seems as though you've gotten confused while trying to confuse?

Are you saying that he would be given false pricing if he doesn't have a contract to replicate? That somehow he would be operating at a disadvantage if he is not an "approved replicator" with one of these "contracts"?

Doesn't this reinforce my statement that there appears to be a "special" subsidised price that is not available to all? - along with the previously mentioned anti-competitive questions?

all replicators told him "NO we won't take your job", none of them accepted his job. So it is odd that any of them will give him a quote in the first place.

Now lests assume that he has a good relationship with one of them and then he said. "I understand you can't do the job for me, but wat would it cost to replicate 1000 BDs" or something like that and the guy said it is X (be it a broken up price per disk or a full round number). What is the chances that the quote would be something "special" because it is porn that the guy does not replicate.

A different scenario is that the guy called and got the price before he mentioned that he wanted to replicate porn and got the no.

Either way it makes little sense that someone would give him a price for replicating porn if none of the people he called are willing to replicate porn.

does it make more sense now?

"If a legit replicator did give him real prices"
if the prices did come from someone that replicates BD or a BD replication broker

"it was not real prices to replicate his content."
it was not special prices to replicate porn, it might be the prices that would be for small studios that replicate in small numbers, it might be the prices that would be for a one time small replication, or it might be something else.

But it makes litle sense that a replicator or broker that refuses to do porn will actually have a price list for it.

That doesn't make sense at all.

I'm sure some replicators actually have going rates for replication, depending on the size of the run.

That doesn't make sense at all.

I'm sure some replicators actually have going rates for replication, depending on the size of the run.

Then show me a publicly available quote for 100K+ BD50 discs.

I can find quotes for:
CD
DVD-A
Dual Disc (DVD-A and CD)
DVD (DVD5, DVD9, DVD18)
HD DVD15
HD DVD30
BD25

BUT NOT BD50.
Nowhere can the true price be found.

Isn't it kinda strange that there is no public pricing for BD50. Not even a press release talking about cost (i.e BD50 is 25% more expesnive than BD25).

So how much of a subsidy is BD50 getting?
How long will it last?
How quickly will BD50 reach price parity with DVD? (and compre that to HD DVD30)
If/when the subsidy on BD50 runs out how much will prices go up?
If prices don't go up how much longer will true cost of BD50 keep prices higher than DVD?

The point is we don't know. We know what the upper limit is on HD30 but we have no idea what the true cost and retail price of BD50 is.

I wasn't talking about BD50. I wasn't talking about 100k discs either.

I wasn't aware these pr0n guys are able to move 100000+ copies of each of their titles.

I'm sure some replicators actually have going rates for replication, depending on the size of the run.



where you talking to me?

This is from a thread (http://forums.highdefdigest.com/showthread.php?t=3055) over at highdefdigest.

thanks dolpinius_rex for this find:

Quote:
Originally Posted by dolphinius_rex
A lot of places have made comments about how HDDVD was cheaper to manufacture (speaking specifically about pressed movies, not hardware or recordable media), and that the price of BluRay manufacturing was very prohibitive. I've been asking for actual NUMBERS for a while now, and someone finally posted some. So I thought I would pass on what I have learned, since I'm sure others would find it interesting:

...but I haven't made 10 posts yet... so I can't post the URL. But it's at wesleytech.com on the front page.
Here is the link:

http://wesleytech.com/blu-ray-vs-hd-...osts-revealed/

This is a really good article btw. Looks well researched. It is unfortunate that there are not numbers for 50 GB discs from all three suppliers.

Cheers
Christy

http://wesleytech.com/blu-ray-vs-hd-dvd-replication-costs-revealed/

Again, no consideration of setup or mastering costs. yawn.

http://wesleytech.com/blu-ray-vs-hd-dvd-replication-costs-revealed/

Again, no consideration of setup or mastering costs. yawn.

Maybe you should have read the whole article (http://wesleytech.com/blu-ray-vs-hd-dvd-replication-costs-revealed/) ... ;)

Also, according to our sources, the Blu-ray setup fee is only slightly more than the HD DVD setup fee, but it depends on the specific manufacturing plant. Looking at these numbers and pricing information, we can now dispell the myth that Blu-ray replication is significantly more costly than HD DVD.
plus an update from the author..
Plant #1)
Setup fees waived on high volume orders
HD DVD SL setup fee $1,500
HD DVD DL setup fee $3,000
Blu-ray Disc SL setup fee $2,500
Blu-ray Disc DL setup fee $5,000

Plant #2)
Blu-ray Disc SL $350 (all quantities)
Blu-ray Disc DL $700 (all quantities)

Replication reseller (ProActionMedia)
Setup fees unknown

b2b

Maybe you should have read the whole article... ;)


plus an update from the author..


b2b


So some kid say's it's so in his blog, it must be Gospel. :rolleyes:
http://wesleytech.com/

So some kid say's it's so in his blog, it must be Gospel. :rolleyes:
http://wesleytech.com/

Yes, he is getting flamed for his article, but one of the comments to the article is relevant to the discussion..
Hey Will,

If you have better information, why don’t you share it? If you know companies willing to give the information out publically, then post about it, and then Wes can confirm it and update his article. But it sounds to me like you’ve read some propaganda from one side of the war, and now don’t like the facts that are being presented, so you’d rather scream BS then try to find proof to the contrary. It makes it a lot easier doesn’t it?

b2b

Maybe you should have read the whole article (http://wesleytech.com/blu-ray-vs-hd-dvd-replication-costs-revealed/) ... ;)

plus an update from the author..

b2b I think his analysis is poo poo.

My gosh b2, you've done much better in the past, at least you acknowledge the fact that there are setup costs. :rolleyes:

I think his analysis is poo poo.

My gosh b2, you've done much better in the past, at least you acknowledge the fact that there are setup costs. :rolleyes:

Other than this article, just what other source can you point to that has any real numbers ?? If you have one, please post it and we can discuss..

What I would like to see is the production costs of the HD-DVD combo discs that Universal seems so fond of... ;)

b2b

I for one am afraid of the manufacturing and retail cost of the Total HD discs... ;) ;)

Yes, he is getting flamed for his article, but one of the comments to the article is relevant to the discussion..


b2bThe most ridiculous link I've ever seen...Another Sony viral marketing blah blah.

I should start a "blog". Apparently, blogs carry a lot of weight around here. What passes for facts here is fiction, apparently.

But yeah, b2b, go on believing it...or don't. I really don't think it matters to you. :rolleyes:


What a waste of bandwidth.

I think the DVD/HD DVD combo is interesting. IMHO it shows lack of confidence releasing 90 % combos.

Why?

Well, if you truly believe that your format will be victorious why bother? The movie will be played in High Def and not standard def. Let's hypothetically say HD DVD against all odds loose and folds. Then you can play the combo in BD drive, but only the SD version. I like THD hedging much better as you can play it on both systems in HD, but then again it's politics involved.

I think the DVD/HD DVD combo is interesting. IMHO it shows lack of confidence releasing 90 % combos.

Why?

Well, if you truly believe that your format will be victorious why bother? The movie will be played in High Def and not standard def. Let's hypothetically say HD DVD against all odds loose and folds. Then you can play the combo in BD drive, but only the SD version. I like THD hedging much better as you can play it on both systems in HD, but then again it's politics involved.

I watch my movies in my movie theater. But sometimes the kids like to watch them on their SD television upstairs, or we play them in the car. That's why combo's are good (for me). I still have more SD players that HD DVD players.

How many combos have you bought? Is daddy watching the same movies as his kids?

Initially there could be some benefits, but for my part I am watching my movies in the HT. I would say 99.9 % of the time. I use the TV for television. I have no need for combo discs other than hedging my bet.

-P

How many combos have you bought? Is daddy watching the same movies as his kids?

Initially there could be some benefits, but for my part I am watching my movies in the HT. I would say 99.9 % of the time. I use the TV for television. I have no need for combo discs other than hedging my bet.

-P

I do watch a lot of the same movies my kids watch, we watch together in my HT.

I don't have many combo disc, but I would like more. But I would also like them to cost the same as a movie without the SD side attached :) I don't really care one way or the other about printing on the disc itself - although I suppose it's nice.

I know I'm in the minority here on this issue, although I don't know why.

I for one am afraid of the manufacturing and retail cost of the Total HD discs...

me too (at least the retail part of it)

So some kid say's it's so in his blog, it must be Gospel. :rolleyes:
http://wesleytech.com/

Um, that "kid" is Wesley Novack, who I think is in his late 30s.

He was also formerly the reviews coordinator and an editor for CD Freaks, which is the world's largest online CD/DVD fan community.

He's got skins on the wall, and people know who he is in the DVD community.

BTW, he just added a whole new post on setup costs.

http://wesleytech.com/

Is he considering the cost only after the encoded glass master has been produced?

Is he considering the cost only after the encoded glass master has been produced?

Maybe if you read the article it would help... ;)

http://wesleytech.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/replicationcosts1.PNG

The table image above shows the per disc costs and setup fee costs from replication plant #1. Remember that larger quantity orders of discs will have setup fees waived. From this we can see that Blu-ray SL discs cost more than HD DVD SL discs. But HD DVD SL is not often used, as the capacity is maxed at 15GB. A more interesting comparison would be to look at Blu-ray SL vs HD DVD DL costs or Blu-ray DL vs HD DVD DL costs.
http://wesleytech.com/blu-ray-vs-hd-dvd-replication-costs-analyzed-again/

b2b

Maybe if you read the article it would help... ;)
b2b I did. Setup fees does not necessarily mean after mastering.

I did. Setup fees does not necessarily mean after mastering.

don't know if he edited after you read it but

Yesterday I posted pricing information on the wholesale per disc costs associated with replicating Blu-ray and HD DVD media. The article has generated a lot of discussion and debates around the web. From the article comments and other discussions, I found that the number one item that people missed in the first article was the costs associated with the replication “setup” fees, which includes the mastering fee.

what other fees are you thinking about

Well that does sound like he is taking setup fees that into account.

I understood that AACS and BD rommarked titles all had to go through a central Sony facility to be encrypted and that there was a healthy charge for that priviledge above the physical replication costs.

It doesn't sound like his quotes are taking into account any recovery of their fixed costs, so colour me still skeptical until I see niche priducts being produced on Blu-ray.

We also don't know what mass production replication costs of the studio titles are and the capacity limits and other restriction like DL50 capacity..

I know the cost for is well below that quote for DVD9s in 50,000 plus lots and HD DVD is the same physical structure.

Pennies, nickels, dimes, quarters and dollars add up per peicce when you are producing millions of discs.

When I see a small niche BD in the market, I'll be less skeptical.

I understood that AACS and BD rommarked titles all had to go through a central Sony facility to be encrypted and that there was a healthy charge for that priviledge above the physical replication costs.
why would Sony have anything to do with AACS- something special for BD? As for the ROM mark it is something the replicating machine physically does to a disk. It has nothing to do with setup or mastering.

It doesn't sound like his quotes are taking into account any recovery of their fixed costs, so colour me still skeptical until I see niche priducts being produced on Blu-ray.
what fixed costs? Do you mean set up/mastering, that is there, content creation (i.e. making the VC-1 encode, making the audio….) that should not be different between the formats. Do you mean the cost to the replicator to upgrade to BD? Well that should be in his cost, the difference is that most people have bought into the myth of BD lines are much more expensive

We also don't know what mass production replication costs of the studio titles are and the capacity limits and other restriction like DL50 capacity..

agree, but the same is true for HD DVD, he gave examples for specific numbers (5,000 and 10,000) on the other hand it looks hard to believe that they would not decrease proportionally. Also let’s be honest, no one is replicating 1M copies of a title, I doubt many (if any) titles except for freebies have been replicated in 100,000.


I know the cost for is well below that quote for DVD9s in 50,000 plus lots and HD DVD is the same physical structure.

But it is not the same, it is close, but not the same. Also HD DVDs need to pay (like BD) for the new lines, so even if the cost is the same to the manufacturer (that they are not) the replicator is not likely to charge the same. I am also guessing that this is a full service cost (i.e. replicate, print, package and ship) don’t compare .30$ for spindles of large quantities of DVDs.

Pennies, nickels, dimes, quarters and dollars add up per peicce when you are producing millions of discs.
but losing a few $$ because you are serving 1/3 of the market is worst.

When I see a small niche BD in the market, I'll be less skeptical.
I don’t know, Magnolia and a few other small studios have produced BD. On the other hand compared to DVD a block buster BD / HD DVD title will look like minor niche.

Well that does sound like he is taking setup fees that into account.

I understood that AACS and BD rommarked titles all had to go through a central Sony facility to be encrypted and that there was a healthy charge for that priviledge above the physical replication costs.

It doesn't sound like his quotes are taking into account any recovery of their fixed costs, so colour me still skeptical until I see niche priducts being produced on Blu-ray.

We also don't know what mass production replication costs of the studio titles are and the capacity limits and other restriction like DL50 capacity..

I know the cost for is well below that quote for DVD9s in 50,000 plus lots and HD DVD is the same physical structure.

Pennies, nickels, dimes, quarters and dollars add up per peicce when you are producing millions of discs.

When I see a small niche BD in the market, I'll be less skeptical.

Chronos, this Tuesday (Feb 13)

b2b

Maybe if you read the article it would help... ;)

http://wesleytech.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/replicationcosts1.PNG


http://wesleytech.com/blu-ray-vs-hd-dvd-replication-costs-analyzed-again/

b2b

Table tells me the setup costs are 67% higher for Blu-ray.

Table tells me the setup costs are 67% higher for Blu-ray.

Maybe if you read the article it would help..
The table image above shows the per disc costs and setup fee costs from replication plant #1. Remember that larger quantity orders of discs will have setup fees waived.


Plus, BD25 is $500 dollars less than HD-DVD30. ;)

b2b

Maybe if you read the article it would help..


Plus, BD25 is $500 dollars less than HD-DVD30. ;)

b2b

My belief is this supposed replicator that posts it's prices online caters to the mom and pop studios. Studios that may not have intentions of stamping large scale quantities. So they're stuck paying the premium.

I mean do you really think studios like MGM, Universal, and Warner are requesting quotes from these guys? Come on now, isn't that a bit silly?

Plus, BD25 is $500 dollars less than HD-DVD30.

yes but BD50 is more, oh wait, that is not right because he would need two BD 30s with twice the setup and twice the disk cost :)

My belief is this supposed replicator that posts it's prices online caters to the mom and pop studios. Studios that may not have intentions of stamping large scale quantities. So they're stuck paying the premium.

I mean do you really think studios like MGM, Universal, and Warner are requesting quotes from these guys? Come on now, isn't that a bit silly?

read the articles, these are not public numbers

Joone's statements confirm many opinions that there is indeed a subsidy system at work in the Bluray "system".

It "confirms" nothing. Simply put, he could be a liar.

Or, this could all be a publicity stunt, in which case it is working. When else have you seen a porno flick company get so much free, mainstream press for an upcoming product line that didn't involve an "acquired" celebrity sex tape?

It may be hard for you to believe, but a pornographer who makes his living telling young women "you're gonna be a big star, baby" might not be the most trustworthy person in the world.

Add to that the very public rumblings that the whole porn industry's overall financial value has been greatly exaggerated and, due in no small part to so much material being available for free on the internet, may be in the early set-up stages for an implosion of 90s "dot com" proportions, and you might some folks out there not telling the whole truth, to hype their products and boost their flagging margins.

It "confirms" nothing. Simply put, he could be a liar.

It may be hard for you to believe, but a pornographer who makes his living telling young women "you're gonna be a big star, baby" might not be the most trustworthy person in the world.

.

There is the "Producers Couch" in mainstream movies too.

The adult industry doesn't make any money off all that free stuff on the internet. They are gambling heavily that people will pay for HD porn. The disc based format remains the easiest way to get hard core porn in HD out to consumers. Even if the consumer subscribes to "Cinemax", there are few HD softcore titles being shown.

http://www.calendarlive.com/movies/cl-fi-porn12feb12,0,6262430.story?coll=cl-movies

The porn industry is having trouble finding replicators to press Blu-ray DVDs.

HD DVD production methods are built on the old DVD standards, so the older machinery can be retooled to make the next-generation discs. But Blu-ray requires expensive new equipment. That's why there are only eight or so Blu-ray replicators in the world.

For Vivid Entertainment Group, the physical production of Blu-ray discs will come to about 35% of those movies' budgets, compared with 15% for HD DVDs and 10% for a standard DVD, said Vivid Chief Executive Steve Hirsch.

35% > 15% > 10%

Vivid is not getting the prices that Warner, Sony, Disney etc. are getting. We don't know what the Big studios are paying. Will we ever?

No but one of the format comparison issues is the cost for small low volume content providers or the breakeven costs for small sales volume releases.

Even a small cost delta makes a difference in the economic viability for a project like that.

Add in the capacity of replication facilities as the formats mature and oodles of discs are needed and HD DVD is just easier to justify for a long tail niche title.

Doubt it, in the insiders thread it was mentioned that there are only 2 replicators that make 50's
Cinram are working on getting theirs up and running.

Well that does sound like he is taking setup fees that into account.
It doesn't just sound like it, he is.

I agree he says he is but how do you explain
35% > 15% > 10%

35% > 15% > 10%

Well, without knowing what the film's budget is, how many copies they are making, and a few other details, this is not really useful information. For example if Vivid is able to author HD DVDs in house using Apple's DVD Studio Pro's limited HD DVD authoring tools, but has to have their replicator author their Blu-ray title, that additional cost might be included in their disc production costs. While that might make his statement true, it would mean that the difference was not inherent, but based on other factors that will likely soon change (likely by NAB of this year when we should see new inexpensive Blu-ray authoring tools).

/carmi

Well, without knowing what the film's budget is, how many copies they are making, and a few other details, this is not really useful information. For example if Vivid is able to author HD DVDs in house using Apple's DVD Studio Pro's limited HD DVD authoring tools, but has to have their replicator author their Blu-ray title, that additional cost might be included in their disc production costs. While that might make his statement true, it would mean that the difference was not inherent, but based on other factors that will likely soon change (likely by NAB of this year when we should see new inexpensive Blu-ray authoring tools).

/carmi

Actually, I think we do know. These guys are using runs of 1000. I assume that the setup fee is one time, and after the 1st 1000 disk run, they can come back to press another 1000 disk run (wo paying setup) as long as they do sell through.

In any event, if it's only 1000, the setup and authoring suddenly becomes a big deal. But the reality is that there is no economics in planning to sell 1000 disks, it's a waste of time and resources for any company to try to turn a buck working on such small jobs.

I agree he says he is but how do you explain

easy, we don't know anything about what those numbers include.

Here are some examples hat cpuld skew the numbers

- If the guy is starting from HD on DVD (like Pirates) he could be talking SL HD DVD vs DL BD.

- Do you know if the BD replicator allowed for thesame number of disks? (i.e. what if the BD was for 2000 and 1000 for HD DVD).

- we all know that not many replicators are willing to do porn, so how do we know if this one is asking a premium just because he can (can't be a big place if all the other studios could not find it, and easy quick buck)

Actually, I think we do know. These guys are using runs of 1000. I assume that the setup fee is one time, and after the 1st 1000 disk run, they can come back to press another 1000 disk run (wo paying setup) as long as they do sell through.

While I agree that average porn films typically press 1,000 copies at a time more important titles from larger studios will often be pressed in larger runs. This is based on discussions with quite a few companies at AVN in Las Vegas.

In any event, if it's only 1000, the setup and authoring suddenly becomes a big deal. But the reality is that there is no economics in planning to sell 1000 disks, it's a waste of time and resources for any company to try to turn a buck working on such small jobs.

Yes, that was what I was saying. If one includes costs for authoring and one does not that makes a big difference and makes this really a meaningless comparison.

/carmi

Brought over from the Neilsen thread.


Read the insiders thread. They have replication insiders there. BD mastering replication incurs additional fees for AACS and for BD ROM mark.

There are also quotes (but they don't discuss specifics) from benwaggoner and amir stating that HD-DVD replication costs are lower. I never saw a rebuttal from a BD insider like paidgeek that disputed the claim.

Like I said in the 3X cost thread you linked, I don't think the cost is 3X as much, but I do think it is more, and could maybe be 3X as much if you are just running 1-2k discs.
Kosty PMed me some insider info that put BD at 25% more on larger runs.

That's 50 cents guys. At a wholesale of say, 20 bucks, that's 2.5%. If BD studios sell 3% more discs than they would in HD DVD, they're covered. If they raise the wholesale price 3%... covered. And those prices will come down.

You're reaching. The price difference is nowhere near what it was expected to be and real world retail bears that out.