Have read that term more then once and not exactly sure what it means...can someone please enlighten me?

also feel free to fill me in on some of the other terms too :D

Have read that term more then once and not exactly sure what it means...can someone please enlighten me?Click here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_level) and here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greyscale).

also feel free to fill me in on some of the other terms too :DThere are many links in the site referenced above. It is not an easy task to convey technical info to a non-technical person.

Click here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_level) and here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greyscale).

There are many links in the site referenced above. It is not an easy task to convey technical info to a non-technical person.
just because i dont know what CRUSHED BLACK means(and I am assuming its a slang term to boot) that doesnt mean I am a non-technical person

when people say they see crushed blacks I want to know what they mean...I am new to AVS but that doesnt mean I am not technical because I dont know what Crushed Black(i googled it and all i found was this: Reduction in the detail of a film or video signal caused by compressing the lower end of the contrast range.)...the one scene i remember reading comments about crushed blacks was in the sewer scene in THE WILD(and I thought it looked great on my TV...so I just wanted a laymans explanation)

:rantover:

means that some details have been lost in the dark, replaced by black

just because i dont know what CRUSHED BLACK means(and I am assuming its a slang term to boot) that doesnt mean I am a non-technical person

when people say they see crushed blacks I want to know what they mean...I am new to AVS but that doesnt mean I am not technical because I dont know what Crushed Black(i googled it and all i found was this: Reduction in the detail of a film or video signal caused by compressing the lower end of the contrast range.)...the one scene i remember reading comments about crushed blacks was in the sewer scene in THE WILD(and I thought it looked great on my TV...so I just wanted a laymans explanation)

:rantover:That's a pretty good description. Crushed blacks is a symptom that can be caused by improper calibration, display characteristics (all digital displays have issues to some extent in the low part of the grayscale, some just more than others) and improper conversion of "studio" video to PC video levels (distorts that grayscale dynamic range and may not be compensated for by calibration). Actually, any part of the grayscale can be crushed with improper calibration or other reasons. eg. bright whites crushed from contrast set improperly. At the very basic level the "crushing" happens when pixels of different color values are displayed or output at/as the same value. This can be caused by video processing or the electronics and parts of the display that create the "light".

larry

just because i dont know what CRUSHED BLACK means(and I am assuming its a slang term to boot) that doesnt mean I am a non-technical personI said, "It is not an easy task to convey technical info to a non-technical person." A general statement, it did not single you out. And your welcome for the time it took me to find and post the links for you. FWIW, we (as in video people) generally use the term "Compressed Blacks" or "Black Compression".

I said, "It is not an easy task to convey technical info to a non-technical person." A general statement, it did not single you out. And your welcome for the time it took me to find and post the links for you. FWIW, we (as in video people) generally use the term "Compressed Blacks" or "Black Compression".
ok 1st thanks for the links...2nd maybe i was a bit irritable and for that I apologize but i did read it as a dig towards me...

orange crush?

It simply means that instead of seeing detail and levels of darkness in a dark area, it goes right to black.

Picture a face with the right half lit by a bright light. Normally, you would still be able to see the left half, it would just be in shadow. You could see the total expression and levels of darkness.

With black crush, you can ONLY see the right half. The left side of the face is pitch black.

M:I III is an example of a title with this problem. It may or may not be a stylistic decision by the director. I personally don't know why a director would choose to do that unless they were making a film noir like Sin City.

It apears that The Guardian also has this issue, but I've only watched the first 10 minutes so far.

I had this issue with my new Sammy 32" LCD. I jacked up the brightness and contrast and then dimmed the backlight with the energy saver mode. Problem solved.

ok 1st thanks for the linksYou are welcome!

2nd maybe i was a bit irritable and for that I apologize but i did read it as a dig towards me...Here is a link to Tektronix (http://www.tek.com/site/ps/1,,25-14575-INTRO_EN,00.html) WFM's that I was accustomed to using to monitor/evaluate video. I am not good at trying to explain their operation in layman terms.

Edit to add: Here is a link to a on-line Tek dealer (http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/tektronix/video/waveformmonitors/digital/wfm700hd700a700m.htm?gclid=CJvFkoTu_okCFQMgQAodSQixNA) just in case you wanted to get one to play with. Make sure to check the options list. Oh, they have a minimum $25.00 order :D :D :D.

Have read that term more then once and not exactly sure what it means...can someone please enlighten me?

also feel free to fill me in on some of the other terms too :D
I'll enlighten you.........It means all of us PS3 people are waiting for a solution to the problem. Well, maybe not all of us. But I know I am :D . On a more serious note, I used to not pay too much attention to the problem......until I started experiencing it first hand on a machine that gave an otherwise good picture. Loss of black detail can really take a lot away from a picture for some people.

You are welcome!

Here is a link to Tektronix (http://www.tek.com/site/ps/1,,25-14575-INTRO_EN,00.html) WFM's that I was accustomed to using to monitor/evaluate video. I am not good at trying to explain their operation in layman terms.

Edit to add: Here is a link to a on-line Tek dealer (http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/tektronix/video/waveformmonitors/digital/wfm700hd700a700m.htm?gclid=CJvFkoTu_okCFQMgQAodSQixNA) just in case you wanted to get one to play with. Make sure to check the options list. Oh, they have a minimum $25.00 order :D :D :D.
i want to order 2 of these but it wont let me WFM700M

;)

I said, "It is not an easy task to convey technical info to a non-technical person." A general statement, it did not single you out. And your welcome for the time it took me to find and post the links for you. FWIW, we (as in video people) generally use the term "Compressed Blacks" or "Black Compression".

As a fellow video professional I'd disagree.

Black Compression and Black Stretch are used (over here) to describe how black levels are processed non-linearly, but don't mean the same as Black Crushing (which IS used commonly in broadcast circles here).

Crushing is used to describe the situation where the very low luminance detail is "crushed" to black and completelly lost - commonly caused by adjusting the "lift" (or master black) of a camera.

Compressing is used to describe altering the black stretch of a camera (often separate to the gamma) - the detail then isn't entirely lost, it is just altered. Stretch is more common than compression in my experience - though it can increase noise visibility. (The BBC used to spec different black stretch on their cameras to other broadcasters - giving more perceived black level detail at the expense of noisier pictures)

What is often described as "black crush" on this (and other forums) is more akin to "clipped blacks" - caused by the differing black level standards (0 for PC video, 16 for broadcast video - at 8 bits) - and differing views as to how sub 16 values should be handled (clipped or passed through)

As a fellow video professional I'd disagree.Not a problem with me :). For your terms I have put my interpretation. Seems we are saying the same thing using different terms.

Black Compression and Black Stretch are used (over here) to describe how black levels are processed non-linearly, but don't mean the same as Black Crushing (which IS used commonly in broadcast circles here).Black Stretch/White Compression: Adjusting for linear response using a EIA logarithmic source.


Crushing is used to describe the situation where the very low luminance detail is "crushed" to black and completelly lost - commonly caused by adjusting the "lift" (or master black) of a camera.Black Compression or Compressed Blacks


Compressing is used to describe altering the black stretch of a camera (often separate to the gamma) - the detail then isn't entirely lost, it is just altered. Stretch is more common than compression in my experience - though it can increase noise visibility. (The BBC used to spec different black stretch on their cameras to other broadcasters - giving more perceived black level detail at the expense of noisier pictures)Is this a user feature or a set-up feature?


What is often described as "black crush" on this (and other forums) is more akin to "clipped blacks" - caused by the differing black level standards (0 for PC video, 16 for broadcast video - at 8 bits) - and differing views as to how sub 16 values should be handled (clipped or passed through)I had posted this earlier in another post:

In general for PC: 0 = Black, 255 = White. For all video that complies (which should be most) with the SMPTE 274M Standard: 16 = Black, 235 = White. 0-15 & 236-255 is for overshoots. 0-15 - Some call this BTB (Blacker than Black [an oxymoron]), Super Black, Toe Room, etc. 236-255 - WTW (Whiter than White [another oxymoron]), Headroom.

For me: Compress implies Expand. Therefore it seems the correct term for video codecs would be "Data Reduction" not "Compression". For 0-16 & 236-255 if not used then the correct term should be "Truncated".

Yep - I suspect that we are split by our common language!

For me compression of blacks implies that you could then expand them (i.e. the data is still present in some form) rather than totally lost - which is what would be called crushing here. In other words - crushing is effectively permanently losing information, compression is remapping the information to new values, but preserving at least some of it.

The "BBC black stretch" was a requirement from the introduction of colour in 1967. Initially it required different analogue circuitry in the camera - and was checked as part of the acceptance tests made when cameras were purchased. (The BBC also had their own colour matrix which manufacturers were also expected to implement) Other broadcasters also purchased cameras with these features on occasion - though it was far from a UK-wide standard - meaning that BBC and ITV camera pictures often looked markedly different.

Eventually the circuitry for BBC matrix and black stretch were added as switchable options - particularly once analogue CCD cameras became popular - there were also LDs who preferred a non-BBC matrix (the BBC matrix was criticised for being desaturated compared to others) for light entertainment shows, but liked it for drama, so this became switchable.

In these days of digital processing the stretch and matrix are implemented in DSP - and thus just software options - usually available on the MCP/MSU. Certainly I've seen MSU/MCPs with RAI (Italian broadcaster), ARD (German broadcaster), BBC (UK broadcaster) and EBU (European Broadcasting Union) matrix options, as well as various BBC black stretches.

It simply means that instead of seeing detail and levels of darkness in a dark area, it goes right to black.

Picture a face with the right half lit by a bright light. Normally, you would still be able to see the left half, it would just be in shadow. You could see the total expression and levels of darkness.

With black crush, you can ONLY see the right half. The left side of the face is pitch black.

M:I III is an example of a title with this problem. It may or may not be a stylistic decision by the director. I personally don't know why a director would choose to do that unless they were making a film noir like Sin City.

It apears that The Guardian also has this issue, but I've only watched the first 10 minutes so far.

More specifically about where this shows up in MI3, the problem shows up in scenes involving characters with dark hair. There is a tendency in darker scenes for the dark hair to appear as an undifferentiated dark mass, with no detail. This is notable in many of the early darkly lit scenes between TC and MM.