Hey, videophiles!

Thank you all for participating in this community. It's truly been an educational experience in which membership is paying dividends as we speak.

In terms of pricing, it would appear you could get either a Sony Cineza VPL-HS60 or an Optoma HD70 for about an equivalent cost (~$1,000). I was curious to know which of the two offered the most high-end features in terms of Picture Quality (PQ) and configurability (professional calibration, throw, etc.).

Both have a lot of similarities, but I'm wondering where the difference ends. As an example: For it's LCD technology, the HS60 (and the dynamic Iris) would seem to, logically, have the edge in truer blacks (or, more correctly, adjusted whites with the contrast shifting) than the DLP of the HD70. I was just curious if experience would show this to be the case or, with proper setup (and without considerations of too much ambient light), if it's a wash between the two (ambient light pun intended).

Thank you all, again, for your invaluable experience!

- Dave

Can you really get a HS51A/60 for that kind of price?
I would pick HS60 without hesistation.
It is a better PJ IMO and worth more.

MSRP of the HD70 is $999

MSRP of the VPL-HS60 is $1999.

Both can be gotten for less if explored but the Sony will always be considerably more.

Can you really get a HS51A/60 for that kind of price?
I would pick HS60 without hesistation.
It is a better PJ IMO and worth more.

To answer your question: yes, you can find one for about the same price (used, refurb, etc.). I've even seen some quoted as New-in-box for near $1K. Granted you have the risks of a used & refurb unit over a squeeky new HD70, but would the feature benefits outweigh the risk? At that point, what benefits would one have over the other?

I'd consider the HD1000U over the HD70 due to color issues and because the HD1000U is 10-bit. Not to mention it's often cheaper at $899.

To answer your question: yes, you can find one for about the same price (used, refurb, etc.). I've even seen some quoted as New-in-box for near $1K. Granted you have the risks of a used & refurb unit over a squeeky new HD70, but would the feature benefits outweigh the risk? At that point, what benefits would one have over the other?

If you go with Sony buy it new with a return policy as any other dpj just in case if it has issues or you change your mind. Some sony units have non-uniformity issue

Benefits- Sony is a great PJ in color, black level and very quiet operation. It also runs cooler and have two year warranty (i am not sure about others). It has all sort of calibration available to tweak the unit on multiple sources with ease.

Placement is another advantage which makes it easy to install in any room. In order to take advantage its contrast you are going to have a room with light control. I run mine with lights on for sports but for movies with low APL ambient light can mask its performance.

There are Sharp 500, 3000 that can be bought in around 1.5k which are good pj's as well. Both HD1000 and HD70 are presentation PJ's with white segment in their color wheel hence not suited for HT but certainly can be used.

I'd consider the HD1000U over the HD70 due to color issues and because the HD1000U is 10-bit. Not to mention it's often cheaper at $899.


u dont read much? both PJs are 10-bit for the non-HDMI ports. both PJs have 8-bit HDMI ports.

and the HD70 does not have any color issues. the greens are fine and the picture looks great OOTB.


as for the OP, if you can find a new $2000 PJ for $1000, its always good to pull the trigger on that.

I've even seen some quoted as New-in-box for near $1K.
Post the link, please, or PM me w/it as we're only supposed to mention MSRP here.
See the sticky at the beginning of this forum.

Post the link, please, or PM me w/it as we're only supposed to mention MSRP here.
See the sticky at the beginning of this forum.

Actually, this isn't a discussion about price as it is about value of the equipment. To keep it out of the pricing realm, we should avoid responses like "if you can get a $$$$ product for $, you should get $$$$." That's not exactly the feature I wanted feedback on, and I certainly want to respect the forum's rules.

To clarify, the question is: side by side, which one would you rather have and why?

I would like an apples to oranges comparison of feature advantages one has over the other. As far as the group is concerned (from what I've gathered reading these forums), they're both great bang-for-the-buck projectors. If I've the choice of the two (no matter the price, warranties, etc.), which would it be?

If you're looking for street prices: As the sticky says, it's as simple as typing the model into your favorite search engine. Buyer beware (and all that).

- MetalDave

u dont read much? both PJs are 10-bit for the non-HDMI ports. both PJs have 8-bit HDMI ports.

and the HD70 does not have any color issues. the greens are fine and the picture looks great OOTB.


Unless I'm missing something, they both feature the same input set: (1) HDMI, (1) S-Video, (1) Composite Video, (1) Component Video Set, and (1) VGA.

I believe both of them upconvert video signals on the Component and HDMI chains to 720p (but can accept 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i signals).

In terms of color, I guess we're really comparing DLP (DarkChip2) versus the SONY LCD. On the HD70, are there any issues with the DLP colorwheel that cannot be remedied/adjusted because of the fixed-chip technology (e.g. "rainbow" effect)?

Thanks for the feedback!

- Dave

Wow, Caspian. You've got a lot of tidbits here. Let me see if I can coherently respond with my follow-up questions. :)


If you go with Sony buy it new with a return policy as any other dpj just in case if it has issues or you change your mind. Some sony units have non-uniformity issue


What types of non-uniformity issues have been reported by other owners? Have you had any yourself (I'm guessing you must have one of the Cineza models)?


Benefits- Sony is a great PJ in color, black level and very quiet operation. It also runs cooler and have two year warranty (i am not sure about others). It has all sort of calibration available to tweak the unit on multiple sources with ease.


Is there a "service menu" like the SONY televisions might offer to correct levels, alignment, etc.? Have you played with it? I thought there was a software interface available as well, and I was wondering if anyone had feedback on that in terms of capability, worth-while value, etc.


Placement is another advantage which makes it easy to install in any room.


What do you mean here? Are you saying that you cannot place the Optomoa HD70 as easily/accurately as the SONY HS60? Or, are you referring to the ambient light issue below?


In order to take advantage its contrast you are going to have a room with light control. I run mine with lights on for sports but for movies with low APL ambient light can mask its performance.


Please clarify this one. Are you saying the SONY has poor performance in rooms without adequate ambient light control?


HD70 [is a] presentation PJ's with white segment in [it's] color wheel hence not suited for HT but certainly can be used.


Do Home Theater grade DLP projectors not have the white segment? I can understand why a presentation projector might have one (slide shows, powerpoint, etc.), but would that be considered extreme contrast to have a white segment in your Home Theater projector?

The SONY uses the dynamic Iris feature to temper the white levels. Can it be inferred that the white segment on the color wheel of the DLP on the Optoma HD70 might do the same?

Great thread, folks. Thanks much for the feedback!

I'd consider the HD1000U over the HD70 due to color issues...

I'm curious to know what sort of "color issues" you've experienced or heard of other users and their experience.

Thanks for the feedback.

- Dave

A lot of your questions can be answered by looking through the HD70 and HD1000U threads. (the search works well within a thread as well as within a forum)

I found my HD70 needed to be adjusted a bit to look the way I wanted it to. Not everyone feels the same. The HD1000U gets some good feedback and some write about issues. (see threads)

The HD70 and the HD1000U both have Keystoning adjustment capabilities. The use of it can affect the PQ. Some say it doesn't. I did see some distortion but that is because I use my HTPC desktop for video work. On movies it is almost impossible to see any effect.

Lens Shift is something I've never used as I have only had DLP PJs. I think it is a better method of squaring up a picture but I don't know for certain.

Lens Shift and Keystoning are necessary to some installations. I was barely able to use my HD70 w/o keystoning because I have a 7' ceiling in the HT. The offset of the HD70 is 28% and the HD1000U is 33%. That means the HD1000U needs more height to deliver a squared-cornered image. I could not have fit the HD1000U in my HT.

In general you can get more features and a better PJ by spending more money. With the HD70 I got the best I could for what I could afford. And I spent less than MSRP.

Good luck

I for one think the color issues (if they even exist) are way way way overstated. There is nothing wrong with the colors from my hd70 (granted this is my opinion).

I'd consider the HD1000U over the HD70 due to color issues and because the HD1000U is 10-bit. Not to mention it's often cheaper at $899.

Every single HD70 thread you say the same unsubstantiated claim. Borderline trolling if you ask me.

The unit I saw did have some color accurracy issues out of the box and it takes a lot calibrating to correct the issue (but it can mostly be done, but with a bit on/off contrast hit at D65). Green was a bit neon and looked a bit too hot. I must have missed any new updates regarding the 10-bit/8-bit issues though and for that I apologize. Either way that really isn't much of a problem anyway.

I'm not saying the HD70 can't look good (even color wise); I'm saying when calibrated the HD1000U looks a bit brighter, more accurate and it costs less usually; so it's the better deal. I've seen them both calibrated and the HD1000U was the victor in my eyes. The HD1000U isn't quite as good as the HC3000U though. The HC3000U clearly had a better black level and it was very noticeable in dark scenes. I'd choose the HC3000U over the HD1000U or HD70 IF I was considering a more expensive projector like the HS60 already. It's hard to beat the deal of an HD1000U though. Dollar for Dollar is offers a lot of performance and can probably be modded for HC3000U like (or better) performance with a color wheel mod and/or iris mod.

u dont read much? both PJs are 10-bit for the non-HDMI ports. both PJs have 8-bit HDMI ports.

and the HD70 does not have any color issues. the greens are fine and the picture looks great OOTB.


as for the OP, if you can find a new $2000 PJ for $1000, its always good to pull the trigger on that.
He's read that....I've also mentioned this when he's stated this before...He he read more HD1000u threads he would see people complained of the green push on that one as well...it can easily be calibrated out of the equation...its just there out of the box because its a byproduct of the clear segment combined with calibration to squeeze out the best possible contrast and brightest picture...the HD1000u was calibrated a bit better out of the box (probably one of the reasons the advertised contrast was slightly lower... Like anything though first impressions are all that matter to some and once there opinion is formed about somthing even hard facts won't change thier minds...
BTW the HD70 does have a slight green push out of the box with color temp 1...I thing your the only one posting an opinion to the contrary, at least that I can remember reading.
Tyson does have a valid piont about the HD1000u being brighter and better calibrated out of the box...but it does have other areas it falls short of the HD70...this topics been beat to death and rather than hijack this thread any further I'm gonna put it to rest as far as I'm concerned. :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by metaldave
Wow, Caspian. You've got a lot of tidbits here. Let me see if I can coherently respond with my follow-up questions.



What types of non-uniformity issues have been reported by other owners? Have you had any yourself (I'm guessing you must have one of the Cineza models)?

A-Most PJ's have this issue more less so get it with return policy


Is there a "service menu" like the SONY televisions might offer to correct levels, alignment, etc.? Have you played with it? I thought there was a software interface available as well, and I was wondering if anyone had feedback on that in terms of capability, worth-while value, etc.

A-HS60 is highly tweakable. It is dream tweak machine more so than their TVs.



What do you mean here? Are you saying that you cannot place the Optomoa HD70 as easily/accurately as the SONY HS60? Or, are you referring to the ambient light issue below?

A-Offset-that is the throw angle. Mostly in DLP it is fixed but you can vary that by a great degree on Sony.



Please clarify this one. Are you saying the SONY has poor performance in rooms without adequate ambient light control?

A-With light on you will wash out the black level. What is to buy a PJ with great black then wash it out.

Do Home Theater grade DLP projectors not have the white segment? I can understand why a presentation projector might have one (slide shows, powerpoint, etc.), but would that be considered extreme contrast to have a white segment in your Home Theater projector?

A-Not all DLP's have white segment. HTPJ should not have it or you will compromise both black level, color saturation and gray scale.

The SONY uses the dynamic Iris feature to temper the white levels. Can it be inferred that the white segment on the color wheel of the DLP on the Optoma HD70 might do the same?

A-DI is used to increae black level. It is not addetive rather subtractive.

Great thread, folks. Thanks much for the feedback!



Good luck.

__________________
It is all about quality. That is the picture.
This post confuses me...Were you asking your self questions and then tring to answer them yourself?...Its just hard to follow.

Just ordered an HS60 for a little more than what the HD70's are selling for. I have 30 days to try it out, so I figured I'd give it a shot. I have a fairly short throw, and based on the calculators, the Sony seemed more appropriate to my situation.


Will report more once I get it up and running in about a week. Hoping to have this ready in time for the big game next Sunday. :D

Wow, Caspian. You've got a lot of tidbits here. Let me see if I can coherently respond with my follow-up questions. :)



What types of non-uniformity issues have been reported by other owners? Have you had any yourself (I'm guessing you must have one of the Cineza models)?



Is there a "service menu" like the SONY televisions might offer to correct levels, alignment, etc.? Have you played with it? I thought there was a software interface available as well, and I was wondering if anyone had feedback on that in terms of capability, worth-while value, etc.



What do you mean here? Are you saying that you cannot place the Optomoa HD70 as easily/accurately as the SONY HS60? Or, are you referring to the ambient light issue below?



Please clarify this one. Are you saying the SONY has poor performance in rooms without adequate ambient light control?



Do Home Theater grade DLP projectors not have the white segment? I can understand why a presentation projector might have one (slide shows, powerpoint, etc.), but would that be considered extreme contrast to have a white segment in your Home Theater projector?

The SONY uses the dynamic Iris feature to temper the white levels. Can it be inferred that the white segment on the color wheel of the DLP on the Optoma HD70 might do the same?

Great thread, folks. Thanks much for the feedback!

Sorry for the mess up. Here is a fix for my previous post:

1-Most PJ's have this issue more less so get it with return policy
2-HS60 is highly tweakable. It is dream tweak machine more so than their TVs.
3-Offset-that is the throw angle. Mostly in DLP it is fixed but you can vary that by a great degree on Sony.
4-With light on you will wash out the black level. What is to buy a PJ with great black then wash it out.
5-Not all DLP's have white segment. HTPJ should not have it or you will compromise both black level, color saturation and gray scale.
6-DI is used to increase black level. It is not additive rather subtractive unlike clear segment.

Good luck.

Sorry for the mess up. Here is a fix for my previous post:

1-Most PJ's have this issue more less so get it with return policy
2-HS60 is highly tweakable. It is dream tweak machine more so than their TVs.
3-Offset-that is the throw angle. Mostly in DLP it is fixed but you can vary that by a great degree on Sony.
4-With light on you will wash out the black level. What is to buy a PJ with great black then wash it out.
5-Not all DLP's have white segment. HTPJ should not have it or you will compromise both black level, color saturation and gray scale.
6-DI is used to increase black level. It is not additive rather subtractive unlike clear segment.

Good luck.

Capsian,

FANTASTIC FEEDBACK! Thank you very much for 1) staying on topic and 2) giving me exactly what I'm looking for. I think it's safe to say the configuration options with the SONY make it the winner in a side-by-side comparison.

Heh, and I'd never configure my black levels during the day. You're right: why get Dynamic Iris if you're going to start with a washed image?

Last question: Can you give me some feedback on "tweaking" the projector that puts it ahead of their TV's?

Thanks again.

Thank you to everyone that's participated in this thread. It seems that folks (such as blackngold75) are starting to see what I'm seeing with regard to the great deals on the SONY HS60's. Good time of year to pick one up.

Isn't there software to interface and configure the projector (via USB)? Does that add any advantage over the service menu (or is THAT the service menu)?

Thanks again!

Just ordered an HS60 for a little more than what the HD70's are selling for. I have 30 days to try it out, so I figured I'd give it a shot. I have a fairly short throw, and based on the calculators, the Sony seemed more appropriate to my situation.


Will report more once I get it up and running in about a week. Hoping to have this ready in time for the big game next Sunday. :D

Let us know. I got the HD70 for 80% of MSRP. The Sony for a little more than that would be well worth a try.

Good luck!

EDIT: That throw range (http://www.projectorcentral.com/Sony-VPL-HS60-projection-calculator-pro.htm) would have been excellent for me as well. I just barely made the HD70 fit in my space. Does anyone know what the offset is?

And it mentions having lens shift AND digital Keystone Correction. Is one for horizontal and the other for vertical?
The user reviews are excellent. Some do mention VB and color bleeding one side. So panel miss-alignment should be checked for.

Thank you to everyone that's participated in this thread. It seems that folks (such as blackngold75) are starting to see what I'm seeing with regard to the great deals on the SONY HS60's. Good time of year to pick one up.

Isn't there software to interface and configure the projector (via USB)? Does that add any advantage over the service menu (or is THAT the service menu)?

Thanks again!

Well Sony has three levels of access to calibration.
1-Users menu-include RGB for each color temp, color space for each preset or user's mode, gammas and standard color and so forth.
2- Service menu for master RGB and so forth
3-Factory menu has just about everything and more to mess up the PJ :D
Good luck- It is a PJ totaly in a different class than those bare bones presentation DLP. I don't think you can buy a better PQ PJ under $2500.


Software- There is a image director software that can be used with 51A but not HS6 and I have not done any experiment with it on my 51A.

Both HD1000 and HD70 are presentation PJ's with white segment in their color wheel hence not suited for HT but certainly can be used.

For the record, neither the HD1000 or the HD70 are presentation projectors.
Both are optomized for Home Theatre use, as their native widescreen panels represent. Neither would really be considered bright enough for presentation use, either.

The white (clear) segment is one of the ways that the projector manufacturers can push more lumens out of their projectors without having to incorporate a brighter bulb, which increases heat and cooling requirements, etc, etc.

More lumens is important to some in the Home Theatre market as they want to run their projectors with some lights on, and not always sit in the dark to watch movies, which of course sacrifices overall black level and color fidelity. More light hitting the screen means more light reflecting back to the user in a room with some ambient light. Many projectors can't throw a watchable image with any room lighting on.

The problem is that the white segment means more light hits the screen, even during dark scenes, which can affect absolute black level and contrast levels. The color "black" inevitably winds up brighter than it would be on a projector with multiple IRIS'es or a DLP colorwheel without the white segment. Those projectors are often dimmer by comparison.

The HD60 is a fine projector, but overpriced at $2k, and also "last years model".
One caveat against owning it is the fact that its not the brightest on the block, and it suffers from some rather significant Screendoor effect. If you are going to be doing your watching in the dark, the first part wont be an issue assuming you pair the PJ up with an appropriate screen.

Those would essentially be the two downsides to owning the HS60, which is otherwise a fine projector.

But the HD70 and 1000U aren't business projectors, not by a long shot.

Let us know. I got the HD70 for 80% of MSRP. The Sony for a little more than that would be well worth a try.

Good luck!



I guess I should clarify: by "a little more" I mean that I got the HS60 for about 30% more than most people seem to be paying for the HD70. Supposed to be shipping today, so I hope to have it late this week.

But the HD70 and 1000U aren't business projectors, not by a long shot.

Has the aspect ratio but not black level. My problem is D65 that can hardly be achieved with clear segment. And there are other issues with CS. When light goes out is when we really need the highest performace not with light on imo.

Saying a HS60 is not better than HD70, 1000 by a wide margin would be a disservice to potential buyers imo. I have sharp DLP (10x) and HS60 is hugely better.
SDE has been improved on HS60 and while I agree that HS51A/60 are released last spring its performance is leap above competition on overall PQ.. Lumen is just fine and it is s misinfo that cannot be used in room with low ambient. I do it all the time even in cinema mode which is the least bright setting. But I do agree its light output is not one of its strength (500 lumen in cinema). HS60 is no longer a $2000 PJ. People can get it at thirteen at crutchfield with thirty day return. Lets be fair here.

Has the aspect ratio but not black level. My problem is D65 that can hardly be achieved with clear segment. And there are other issues with CS. When light goes out is when we really need the highest performace not with light on imo.

Saying a HS60 is not better than HD70, 1000 by a wide margin would be a disservice to potential buyers imo. I have sharp DLP (10x) and HS60 is hugely better.
SDE has been improved on HS60 and while I agree that HS51A/60 are released last spring its performance is leap above competition on overall PQ.. Lumen is just fine and it is s misinfo that cannot be used in room with low ambient. I do it all the time even in cinema mode which is the least bright setting. But I do agree its light output is not one of its strength (500 lumen in cinema). HS60 is no longer a $2000 PJ. People can get it at thirteen at crutchfield with thirty day return. Lets be fair here.
the light output of a d65 calibrated HD70 of 1000 is still higher than 500 lumens I believe... and before getting to far into this Have you even seen a HD70 or HD1000u?
I love all this stated first hand knowledge with out any fact whatso ever to back it up...I don't know anything about the sony except they cost more than they are worth to fix :) and its an lcd projector with its own set of issues entirely...I will refrain from making unfounded statements about which is "superior by a wide margin" hte clear segment has a great advantage in many applications...also if its still undisirable after the bulb breaks in (thats when it shines) you can easily block out the clear segment. I'm sure they both have thier distinct advantages in different enviroments.
BTW how much "superior" is that sony if your blue polorizer goes and you get a $2,200 estimate from sony to repair it and they sock you for the shipping regardless just to look at it....would'nt be such a good deal to me in this case...maintence and reliability are inportant things to consider in the value of something.

the light output of a d65 calibrated HD70 of 1000 is still higher than 500 lumens I believe... and before getting to far into this Have you even seen a HD70 or HD1000u?


My question: Has any qualified person been able to calibrate any of these pj's to D65 properly?
I like to see a report of its tracking and lumen measurement. Any link?

Normally you should expect a loss of about 50% after D65 calib.

Yes I have seen a friends Mits which looked better than my Sharp 10x in rez and black level marginally. It is true.
Sony's 500 lumen is its dimmest possible.

I won't be posting on HS vs sub $1k units anymore. They are not in same league.

I just looked at the review of Mits 1100 at cine4home.com . I would think its performance should be close or same as 1000.
Chroma bug, lens abberations, line doubling (ghosting) and puts out 650 lumen with contrast at about 2000 CR.

Has the aspect ratio but not black level. My problem is D65 that can hardly be achieved with clear segment. And there are other issues with CS. When light goes out is when we really need the highest performace not with light on imo.


You said they were business projectors, they aren't. I went on to explain the pros and cons of a white segment, thats all.


Saying a HS60 is not better than HD70, 1000 by a wide margin would be a disservice to potential buyers imo. I have sharp DLP (10x) and HS60 is hugely better.


I never said they were, and don't think you should suggest that I did. Go re-read my post, all I did was list the pros and cons of each.

As an aside, I noticed nowhere in your posts did you mention the downsides of the Sony product, which also isn't fair to a potential buyer.


SDE has been improved on HS60 and while I agree that HS51A/60 are released last spring its performance is leap above competition on overall PQ.. Lumen is just fine and it is s misinfo that cannot be used in room with low ambient. I do it all the time even in cinema mode which is the least bright setting. But I do agree its light output is not one of its strength (500 lumen in cinema). HS60 is no longer a $2000 PJ. People can get it at thirteen at crutchfield with thirty day return. Lets be fair here.

Exactly, be fair. List the pros and the cons.

HD70/1000:
Pros:
Bright, very bright if configured to be that way, punchy image.
DLP, less screendoor than LCD models that aren't made by Panasonic :)
Cheap..$800 in some instances if you shop wisely
Very light, small, quiet.

Cons:
Requires tweaking to get more normalized image, not easy to calibrate
white segment means black levels suffer, colors can look 'electric'
Rainbows from DLP if you are prone to them
Can be hard to place due to fixed image throw offset

HS60:
Pros:
Excellent contrast ratio, excellent black levels (best available for LCD?)
Nice, crisp images from high rez panels, good color reproduction
Quiet
Lens shift
Very tweakable in menus

Cons:
More expensive
LCD technology inherent to issues DLP doesn't have (polarizer failure, non-sealed light path)
Dimmer light output than comparible projectors
Larger, heavier than HD70


I also agree that they are in two different classes. I personally dont like the potential gotchas of LCD panels (mainly the non-sealed light path and discoloration of the panels or prisims), and at $1300 should definately be considered, but if I were to buya LCD the Sonys get my nod over all other brands due to their excellent Contrast Ratios and black levels.

I personally own a HD70 that I modded to block the clear segment, so I get the best of both worlds, but that also isn't the answer for alot of people. I'll aslo go on the record as saying while I'm satisfied with my modded HD70, I'm not thrilled with it. But, having said that, if I were to do it again I'd skip the $999 HD70 and have gone with a $1600 DLP instead.

Some what fair post.
Cones of Sony is only limited to not such a great PJ in light output. Its light output is blown out of proportion. In every other area it is a better PJ than its its competition let alone the entry levels. Pearl is also not so bright but it is one of the best available.

I have a DLP and LCD and stated differences are far from reality.
I cannot stand DLP's color wheel with its Dithering and RBE artifacts. Read what Greg of wide screen review mag says about non-uniformity issue of DLP particularly 3 chip. It is mostly inherited in 3 panel rather than LCD vs. DLP.
When I recommend HS I always say buy it with return policy.

"Larger, heavier than HD70". That is one con that is actually its strength.
Physical build of Sony is far better than a lot of PJ's out there and hence the weight and its quiet fan operation.

When I recommend HS I always say buy it with return policy.


Good points, all.

Caspian, maybe you could shed some light on what to look for when you take that projector (specifically, the HS60) out of the box for the first time. It'd be smart to have some bullets to check before deciding whether or not to invoke the return policy.

Someone quoted price from Crutchfield earlier (sorry moderators!), but that'd be a great choice. I've purchased from Crutchfield in the past, and their return policy is the best in the mail-order industry. Basically, it's try it, and, if you don't like it for any reason, we'll take it back. I had a friend/neighbor that always had packages from Crutchfield coming and going because he was looking for just the right speaker, tv, etc.

So, assuming you buy an HS60 from someone like a Crutchfield with an outstanding return policy, what should I be looking for before my 30-day moratorium on returns is used up? How would I troubleshoot (a burn-in period, etc.)?

Thanks much everyone!

- Dave

I would put up an all white pattern (100 IRE) and a low contrast such as 20 IRE and look for non-uniformity (color fringing if you will) and a cross hatch for misconvergence. If a minor amount present at worse I will keep it otherwise back to the seller. That should reveal the typical problems you might you with it. Even without those problems for some reasons you may not like it but I highly doubt. I good HS60/51A puts an image that is hard to beat.
If there is a question once you get it post it and I will try to answer if I can.

I just looked at the review of Mits 1100 at cine4home.com . I would think its performance should be close or same as 1000.
Chroma bug, lens abberations, line doubling (ghosting) and puts out 650 lumen with contrast at about 2000 CR.
the 1100 is not the same unit...no clear segment for one thing...the 1000u is a very bright projector. So is the HD70 of course I don't personally have much to compare it too. And yes I believe arts numbers were calibrated pretty close to D65. (I could be wrong) but thats what he stated. The HD1000u is fairly close out of the box...but tweaked a bit for better contrast and brighter image at the cost of some accuracy as well I believe. I'm not by any means saying the sony doesn't give a better perfect D65 graphed calibrated image I am questioning whether or not its noticable enough once both our calibrated to the eye. I think realistically more people want the punchier brighter more contrastier image that the new low cost DLP's deliver at the cost of some color accuracy...Plus you can still sacrcifice that to get a more accurate 65k image if you want.. Since these clear segment DLP's came out I've noticed front projection getting a lot more publicity at even the big box stores like BB and CC I don't think as many people would have gone to front projection if it wasn't for the added ambient light viewing and richier contrasting colors these provide. I myself like both but am happy using the calibrated numbers Art at projectorreviews.com posted in his review.
BTW what is the real contrast rating of the sony? Just curious? It is after all lcd...I know thiers an iris that greatly increases the poor native lcd contrast. I actually haven't seen an lcd home theater projector in a long time.
Also I will admit that until the bulb breaks in on the HD70 the whites are way too bright and crushed and brilliant color has to be turned down but I believe it improves greatly as the bulb breaks in and the end result is a projector that gives a noticably brighter desirable image over the entire course of the bulb life and not just the first couple hudred hours.

That is what Art said:
"As noted, there is also a lamp life extending low power mode for the lamp. This reduced brightness by about 22%, yielding 647 lumens in the HD1000U's best image mode!"
In best image mode which I think he means D65 but not sure (best in quality or brightness).

In hi end pj it is all about contrast. It is easier to build a brighter pj than hi contrast.
Your question about Sony contrast... well never mind. Stick to DLP, LCD crap.

That is what Art said:
"As noted, there is also a lamp life extending low power mode for the lamp. This reduced brightness by about 22%, yielding 647 lumens in the HD1000U's best image mode!"
In best image mode which I think he means D65 but not sure (best in quality or brightness).

In hi end pj it is all about contrast. It is easier to build a brighter pj than hi contrast.
Your question about Sony contrast... well never mind. Stick to DLP, LCD crap.
I wasn't being sarcastic I was actually asking how the good the contrast was?? Most of what I've read here says lcd contrast generally infererior but I realize thier are exceptions to every rule... Lighten up.... And I believe art ment in its best color calibration mode because he also stated while the HD70 had an out of the box brightness about the same as the hd1000u it was noticable brighter in its best mode than the hd70 in its best mode because the lumens were cut to calibrate the colors of the hd70.

in all fairness, Sony is not for those who like the image very bright. I have said that before.
Sony out of box puts out 11000:1 CR on/off. I would think with proper calibration it drops to 50%. DLP's are using iris. while it is not a perfect solution it gets the job done. No more gray black with low APL. In Sony you can drop the DI and it gets near yours as far as lument and contrast difference is not much. It is rated 2000:1 for native taken with a grain of salt probably 1500:1. In sports no iris hi lamp it is very bright. With iris low light d65 it is a multiplex.

I guess I should clarify: by "a little more" I mean that I got the HS60 for about 30% more than most people seem to be paying for the HD70. Supposed to be shipping today, so I hope to have it late this week.

Still sounds pretty good! Even at a little over 150% of what I paid for my HD70. I'd have tried it too, although I have preferred the look of DLPs over LCDs so far. But never say never. ;)

I hope you'll post your impressions. And I hope you've seen a good DLP in action for some comparison. Or maybe a friend with a good 720P DLP? At any rate: Have Fun!

But it seems a slight war is taking place here. :D The theorists against the pragmatists, or some such thing.

In theory I don't like DLP dithering, but by keeping all of the bells and whistles usage to a minimum on the HD70 dithering is very difficult to see. Turn up the TrueVivid (is that the name?) and you'll really see it. Solarization city!! (Especially during several scenes in the new Superman Returns movie. :eek: Yikes! I thought my new PJ was displaying the results of 8 bit processing, but I found I had inadvertently put TrueVivid (name?) at 2.) I keep it set at zero.

In theory I don't like LCD. (Although I love the images on the two Flat Panel LCDs in our living room and bedroom. Different technology I guess.) I have to say that I haven't seen a new one in a couple of years now. VB and bleeding edges is something I've seen but I'll bet the newer models are better. And all those yellow and purple LCD colored images in display PJs in Nordstroms (and other fashion stores) don't give me much faith in the longevity of an LCD unit. But they are old (and old models) and probably have many, many hours on them.

I would try that Sony at the price mentioned and with the return policy. If the black level is better by a noticeable margin I would be tempted!

Sony Hs60/51A puts out an image very very similar to their Bravia panel display. No color bleed, extremely clean and vibrant color without being overly saturated PQ, very natural look to the picture. Black level is so good that any light I mean even your receiver led's become so bright and annoying without any loss of shadow detail.
There are tweaks posted by some guys that brightens its image which rally works. I would not recommend this pj to those who are running unity screen larger than 8' unless have a higher gain such HP. With HP there is no deficiency in light output of combo if you can live with HP's narrow cone.

I still have some minor construction, including electrical, before I can fire this puppy up. However, some first impressions:

This thing is solid. Larger than I expected, and weighing in at about 13 pounds.
The lens shift features seem to give a lot of flexibility in projector placement
Based on what I read in the manual, there are plenty of ways to tweak the image in the regular menus.


It will probably take me a couple of evenings to have this ready to go, as I also need to mount a rack for A/V equipment, run speaker wire, cables, etc. Will post more as I get the projector running, and will get some screenshots.

Cyrano - Unfortunately, no one I know has a projector, so the only image comparison I can make is to my 34" Sony HD CRT TV.

Just checking crutchfield for a reciever ran into Sony HS60 and they are sold out. Good price moved this little guy. But they are taking orders. Anyone looking for HS60 better get their act together before it is too late.

Cyrano - Unfortunately, no one I know has a projector, so the only image comparison I can make is to my 34" Sony HD CRT TV.

The CRT blacks will be better but the PJ is going make 34" look pretty small. :)
Maybe you'll run into someone else with a PJ HT someday.

Enjoy!!
(Wish I'd seen this deal 4 months ago - although I am very happy with the PQ on our HD70. But, better is always better. :D)

(Wish I'd seen this deal 4 months ago - although I am very happy with the PQ on our HD70. But, better is always better. :D)

This deal was not there 4 months ago. It is a new price by CF and who knows if it lasts or not.

This deal was not there 4 months ago. It is a new price by CF and who knows if it lasts or not.
That's what I thought. But I do still wish this deal was happening 4 months ago (and I saw it). I wasn't clear in my post.

The CRT blacks will be better but the PJ is going make 34" look pretty small. :)


Yes, I think going from 34" to something like 84" should be rather dramatic! Although I suspect SD channels won't look all that great exploded up to that size.

Finally got the HS60 mounted last night. As a temporary solution, I am painting a screen on the wall until I can pony up the cash for a quality screen. However, before painting, I hooked up my QAM tuner just to get an idea of image size, etc. Even projecting on a black wall, I got a great image on some of the HD content (Tonight Show, Letterman)! Black levels were outstanding! :D

I haven't finished connecting the speakers and receiver yet, so I haven't watched much since there's no sound. However, what I've seen so far looks pretty encouraging.

Well. I recieved my HS60 the other day and must admit to being a bit underwhelmed at the PQ. While i loved the image placement flexibilty of the unit and was impressed by the black levels, the picture i am getting is rather dull and 2D. I am thinking this may be due to the blackout cloth screen i put together to save a few bucks. I am thinking of ordering a Da Lite High Power screen. I used to have one when i had an HS10 and reallly liked the picture. I have 30 days to evaluate this PJ, so any tips or tricks for enhancing PQ would be appreciated.

You did not say what was the source!
I tell you with confidence that HS60 PQ is not dull not even close. If you said dim perhaps but there are ways to brighten up the image. Get your screen, put a calibrating disk in your DVD player and set it up right. Post your picture setting.

I have to agree. I watched quite a bit today. HD content is outstanding. Even my old DVD player (not even progressive) looked good. I am really happy with this purchase, and I haven't started tweaking it yet! Ambient light, however, really hurts - once I disconnected a nearby ceiling fixture in my basement, the difference was amazing.

btw - currently I am projecting onto a painted wall using Behr gray paint. A quality screen will probably make it look even better, but I can't imagine how much better it could get.

Iv tried it out with three different HD sources- Toshiba A1, JVC 5U D-VHS & Moto HD-DVR. I got it looking better tonight, but it still is missing that Nth degree of sharpness that i feel it is capable of. There is still some light control that i can do with the walls and floor (Dont think i can go the whole Batcave in this apt, like i did in my previous place with felt on the ceilings). I can definately live with the PQ i have now. I think a screen upgrade will definately improve things.
Settings:
Contrast: 55
Brightness: 50
Hue/Color: 50
Sharpness: Had it at 0, am trying 20
Black level: Off
Gamma: Off
Color Temp: Middle
AI: Auto
Lamp: Low
I dont feel comfortable tweaking the Service Menu.
Question: Does using the lens shift affect the PQ? This is a very useful feature which i wish was controllable via the remote. Any tips on how to use the focus ring?
Thanks for the feedback,
Rick.

Lens shift wouldn't affect your PQ.
Make sure PJ is square to the screen.
Now I know where the problem is.
Use cinema or standard mode.
Contrast-leave it at default 80 or higher. Mine set at 90.
Gamma-use gamma 2 which the most accurate of all.
Color temp-use low which is D65. Middle is too blue but it can be used if you like it.
Sharpness- I left mine at 50 or even less than that would produce better result.
Setting your contrast would not eat up your bulb so don't try to save bulb by using lower setting than optimum.

Screen- Get something with higher gain than 1. Such as M1300 from draper. It is a cheap screen.

Focus ring- Just put up a cross hatch and use the ring to get the best focus.

Im trying out your recommended settings, Caspian. I do seem to see some improvement, but its subtle. Iv always put my contrast at just over 50, so 80 takes some getting used to. What is your brightness setting? Also. what setting should i use with the iris?
I have a Da Lite High Power screen on order, which should give the picture more pop.

Brightness at 50. I keep the black level off.
In factory setting my iris was 224 which I changed to 230 for deeper black. I did that only after RGB were changed. Open iris number was changed from 40 to 30.
Your HP makes the PJ look brighter same as increasing your contrast. If contrast 80 is too much I am not sure if HP will help you out at all.

Caspian,

what screen are you projecting onto? I noticed when I applied a coat of gray paint the SDE I was seeing went away almost completely. So, I'm thinking a gray screen will be the way to go when I eventually buy one.

Gray will reduce the lumen (brightness) and that is why you see SDE less.
I use white. I say stay with white unless you watch with some lights on.

Okay, you've convinced me. After some more trials with paints, I realize the SDE was mostly because the image was a tad too large for my seating position. I like the way the image looks on white much better. So, I just ordered a Draper Onyx M1300 fabric, and am dialing the image size down a few inches diagonally.

btw - I know I already said this, but I really like this HS60. Too bad there are several more months until football season once again! :D

Sometimes a dull look is from lack of contrast ratio. The screen may not help. Just an FYI before you spend more money.

Okay, you've convinced me. After some more trials with paints, I realize the SDE was mostly because the image was a tad too large for my seating position. I like the way the image looks on white much better. So, I just ordered a Draper Onyx M1300 fabric, and am dialing the image size down a few inches diagonally.

btw - I know I already said this, but I really like this HS60. Too bad there are several more months until football season once again! :D

Good move. If looking for that punch you need to tailor the size of the screen.
Given HS60 is not that bright, I found 8' wide unity white screen is the optimum size for it.

Sometimes a dull look is from lack of contrast ratio. The screen may not help. Just an FYI before you spend more money.
There's nothing dull about the image, and the contrast ratio on this projector is actually pretty good. However, I believe a real screen (as opposed to my painted wall) will provide a better image. If not, I can always return the screen.

There's nothing dull about the image, and the contrast ratio on this projector is actually pretty good. However, I believe a real screen (as opposed to my painted wall) will provide a better image. If not, I can always return the screen.

I agree. HS60 has to be seen.
I would pick a screen with proven positive such as M1300 for it. It is a true near 1.3 (actually 1.25) gain screen. Avoid gray with this pj.
While others claim high gain they are not.

Well. I recieved my HS60 the other day and must admit to being a bit underwhelmed at the PQ. While i loved the image placement flexibilty of the unit and was impressed by the black levels, the picture i am getting is rather dull and 2D..

HIS words - not mine.

Well, Iv got my High Power screen set up. Its better than the blackout cloth, but didnt quite deliver the pop i was hoping for. I have tried several settings, but am missing that nth degree of sharpness, especially on the edges of images. Im beginning to think this is a resolution issue. My HS10 seemed to have a sharper picture at 1366x768. HS60 is a definite step up in overall black level.

What is the size of your screen and where do sit?
HS60 noted for its sharpness and its lens is a high performance one.

I have never seen the HS10 but HS60 should eat the HS10 alive in contrast ratio and color.
Edit: try sharpness at or near 50. Use gamma2 and contrast at least 70. Brightness at 50. Make sure the focus is correct. If feeding HDMI try 720p feed with smart resize off.

Draper m1300 up and mounted - WOW!! Big difference. I still need to adjust the HS60 now and tweak the picture for this screen a little bit (seeing minor hotspots once in a while). Overall, though, HD content looks fantastic. I also notice the screen is more forgiving of some ambient light in the room (compared to my previous painted-wall solution).

Screen size: 73" Diagonal
PJ Throw: ~10 feet

This almost makes me want to take the HD DVD or Blu-Ray plunge, but I think I'll still wait that one out a little while longer.