New Sony hc7 will be out about the middle of Feb and will have mic input, head phone output and 1080i for $1400. Sounds what I have been waiting for. HDV with mini tape. In fact my sony wide angle lens that fits my trv-20 will go right on it . Cannot wait to hear the reviews. Also, at least 3 megapixel still and flash. Has anyone heard anything about it.

http://sonyhdvinfo.com/

I am very much looking forward to this camera coming out as well!

Yeah I'm in the HC7 camp as well. This will be my first HDV camera. Reminds me of the TRV-900 save only one sensor. Manual audio gain is never mentioned in any of their data sheets although I know it's there. Top loader is huge over the HC1's bottom feeder. Looks like it has a better sensor than the HC1 too. Says you can go to 1/30th shutter speed to gain light in low light situations. They say it works down to 2 lux without invoking the Super Night Shot it also has. Ready to pull the trigger as soon as I can find it for $1200. :)

FYI the Canon HV20 is DOA due to missing LANC port so you can't drive it with an external zoom controller on your tripod.

People have the Sony HC7 in their possession now. Went on sale Wednesday in stores.

Yes. Some footage have already appeared in www.listvideo.com.
Checkout these..

Cheers

I really want to get a HD-HC7 but I am not sure if I should wait for the New Canon HV20 to make a decision. The only real weak point I can see in the new canon is that its quoted at a lux 7 and the sony a lux 2.

I really want to get a HD-HC7 but I am not sure if I should wait for the New Canon HV20 to make a decision. The only real weak point I can see in the new canon is that its quoted at a lux 7 and the sony a lux 2.
Where did you get that info from?

The HV20 is rated at a 3.
LINK (http://www.hdvinfo.net/articles/canon/comparehv10hv20.php)

I wouldn't go by specs alone though.

Where did you get that info from?

The HV20 is rated at a 3.
LINK (http://www.hdvinfo.net/articles/canon/comparehv10hv20.php)

I wouldn't go by specs alone though.

7 is just the number I have seen around. I have not done as much reading into the HV20 as the HD-HC7, but I question its ability to truly record 1920x1080 at 24p, because from what I understand all video that is HDV has to be 1440x1080. I do not know about the frame rate, but to be HDV it must be 1440x1080.

You are correct. The sensor is 1920x1080 and then it is downsampled to 1440x1080 to fit into the HDV standard.

Andy K.

You are correct. The sensor is 1920x1080 and then it is downsampled to 1440x1080 to fit into the HDV standard.

Andy K.


Just to make sure your clear on this... There is no way to get 1920x1080 out of the cam. It's an HDV cam using a 1920x1080 cmos (some people buy the cam because they believe they can get 1920x1080 out of it.... You can't)

Just to make sure your clear on this... There is no way to get 1920x1080 out of the cam. It's an HDV cam using a 1920x1080 cmos (some people buy the cam because they believe they can get 1920x1080 out of it.... You can't)

That is my understanding I just dont get the whole 24p thing at this point. I am not sure how canon is offering it. Is it a trick with the way it is recorded or does HDV support it?

I really just want a camera with the best picture quality in non professionally lit situations.

HDV does support 24p but it is an interesting question... is this REAL 24p or electronicly generated in some fashion?

HDV does support 24p but it is an interesting question... is this REAL 24p or electronicly generated in some fashion?
It's no trick.

LINK (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=85293)

It's no trick.

LINK (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=85293)


Well, my HC3 has "Cinema mode".... but they never advertised as 24p, so there has to be a difference?

SONY did the same thing on the HC1. They added the cinema effect mode that created a fake 24p look. Canon decided to do it the correct way and make it a real 24p. perhaps it was a nod to us artists knowning well that some very creative people were going to be using it. Perhaps they also did it because many people with XH1 cameras were buying these for B roll cameras/decks and figured it would be nice for those shooting 24F to have footage that could also B roll from the HV20. I mean this makes sense from that point of view. With the HV10 you only choice for B roll was to shoot 60i which didn't work very well for those shooting 24F. Now many 24F users will have an option for a locked down camera or camera used in a funky position that could be used to match footage from the higher end gear. I could actually see some high budget productions using these cameras for crashing since they are so cheap (assuming of course the tape wouldn't get too damaged).


Taken from the link. This should give people a more film-like appearance when shooting in 24P...

Taken from the link. This should give people a more film-like appearance when shooting in 24P...

Yeah... okay... He-he-he-he.... this time it's me with the reading problem.... The answer was there and I skipped right over it!

Also,

The HV20 records true progressive frames. It is stored on the tape in a 60i stream using pull-down. Editing software will have to remove the pull-down to place the fields into true progressive frames. I believe that most current editing programs will do this.

From what I've gathered (and I'm new when it comes to video cameras) this is the first camcorder to allow this... for a very affordable price I might add.

Still, let's not take the Sony thread too far OT. It looks like a good camera in its own right.

Thanks,

Kyser

Also,

The HV20 records true progressive frames. It is stored on the tape in a 60i stream using pull-down. Editing software will have to remove the pull-down to place the fields into true progressive frames. I believe that most current editing programs will do this.

From what I've gathered (and I'm new when it comes to video cameras) this is the first camcorder to allow this... for a very affordable price I might add.

Still, let's not take the Sony thread too far OT. It looks like a good camera in its own right.

Thanks,

Kyser

Well if you want to de-interlace your video you can do that in which case it is not much different then the sony. You can do just about anything you want with video if you have time and good software. I would also have to believe that eventually someone will make a good filter to turn digital video recorded by non 24p cameras into 24p footage. Also the footage in 24p that I have seen so far from the HV20 seems to be choppy. Good 24p footage does not chop like that.

I do not think we are too far off topic since that is really the only competitor out there to this camera and a good understanding of the 24p mode will help people decided if the sony is right for them. I for one am going to purchase the sony tomorrow after doing more research into the HV20 today.

I have downloaded all the video on the net produced by these cameras and one shot in particular made me pick the sony. It involved a few objects on a black background. At first the cannon seemed to have less noise then the sony, but I think the noise came from poor encoding since the file sizes are so different. I plan on pulling these video's apart tomorrow to verify it, but what really shocked me was how much different black looked on the sony then the canon. The blacks on the canon look faded while the sony look black. Also colors in the video look muted and a bit yellow to me, where as the sony seems to pop a bit more. Once again I am not sure if they are naturally that way or if it the camera is playing tricks. It would be nice if they provided a reference photo to compare it to.

For reference I am viewing these on my Macbook Pro in full screen mode and half size because my screen is not 1920x1080.

Can you provide some links for these downloads please.

Thanks,

Kyser

Can you provide some links for these downloads please.

Thanks,

Kyser

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20070214/zooma295.htm

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20070207/zooma294.htm

I found these after quite a bit of searching and they have similar shots. There is other footage on the net, but it is not close enough to compare in my opinion.

edit: it appears google translator wont let me include it in the link so you will have to put the URL in google translator yourself.

I actually posted the HV20 link a while ago.
The HV20 footage played fine on my PC.
Not choppy at all?

I also posted a nice low-light clip from the HV10 as well. Raw footage...
The black level looked great, the HV20 should only improve in that area.

The HC-7 looks good as well.

I actually posted the HV20 link a while ago.
The HV20 footage played fine on my PC.
Not choppy at all?

I also posted a nice low-light clip from the HV10 as well. Raw footage...
The black level looked great, the HV20 should only improve in that area.

The HC-7 looks good as well.

The 24p footage looks choppy to me, but I am sensitive to low frame rates. It is not dramatic, but it reminds me of when I tried to play an old game on one of my old PC. Since I had become used to 100+ fps gaming the game looked very choppy to me at 30-60fps, where as when I originally played it like that I thought it was smooth. I have not had this sensation watching other 24p video.

PS just because you posted them a while ago does not mean that google indexed them :) I found those on another site. I have only been looking in 2 threads on AVS because this site is not really known for its camcorder community.

The 24p footage looks choppy to me, but I am sensitive to low frame rates. It is not dramatic, but it reminds me of when I tried to play an old game on one of my old PC. Since I had become used to 100+ fps gaming the game looked very choppy to me at 30-60fps, where as when I originally played it like that I thought it was smooth. I have not had this sensation watching other 24p video.

PS just because you posted them a while ago does not mean that google indexed them :) I found those on another site. I have only been looking in 2 threads on AVS because this site is not really known for its camcorder community.

Well, it is more film-like. ;)

Yeah, AVS is just venturing into camcorders. As am I...

Well, it is more film-like. ;)

Yeah, AVS is just venturing into camcorders. As am I...

More film like, but still obviously inferior quality to higher end 24p cameras. My only real concern is the black levels. I really cant tell if all that noise is caused by the camera or the encoding or the lighting or what. I wish I could speak to the person that made this video, but the other shots look really good. I like the sharpness of the canon a bit more, but it just feels like the colors are off to me when I watch it. I am leaning towards poor encoding because the sony file is 85 megs while the canon file is 5 megs. Something had to occur to cause the file to balloon like that granted the sony clip is slightly longer. Open them up side by side and play them both and let me know what you think. This would also explain why the canon looks much sharper in some shots.

More film like, but still obviously inferior quality to higher end 24p cameras.
Of course, but this camera is only $1000.00!
There really is no comparison to high end $$ 24p cameras. One thing is for sure, there are plenty of pros talking about buying this little HV20 to use as their B-roll footage. That says a lot...

I'll look at both clips side by side and see how they look.

Kyser

I like the sharpness of the canon a bit more, but it just feels like the colors are off to me when I watch it. I am leaning towards poor encoding because the sony file is 85 megs while the canon file is 5 megs.

Funny, the review of the Sony mentions that the colour is off on the HC7. Red pushing towards magenta... past Sony cams have had this "red" problem as well.

Kyser

Of course, but this camera is only $1000.00!
There really is no comparison to high end $$ 24p cameras. One thing is for sure, there are plenty of pros talking about buying this little HV20 to use as their B-roll footage. That says a lot...

I'll look at both clips side by side and see how they look.

Kyser

True enough, the features are very impressive on paper I just cant help but to look and compare. There is also a shot taken with both cameras of a girl leaning on a tree. But sadly the lighting is different. I do not know enough about HD video and these small details to know which is more true to life. I was kind of hopping someone on here could tell me as my only other experience with digital video was the Sony TRV900 which was a great little camera. I used it in final cut to produce quite a few different things and loved it. I have since become a bit of an audio and video snob thanks to 5.1 and HD and now I just want a sub 2k camera that will capture as close to reference quality as possible. So when I look at these video's I am very leery to blame things on the camera, I do at least know that there are many many factors that affect picture quality. I would love to hear someone else chime in and compare these videos the way I am trying to, because so far all I have seen anywhere is a bunch of fanboy like fever.

Funny, the review of the Sony mentions that the colour is off on the HC7. Red pushing towards magenta... past Sony cams have had this "red" problem as well.

Kyser

I am aware of that, but the sony seems to be calibratible to correct this. I was thinking the greens pop a bit much. It seems like most companies are trying to make HD video more vivid rather then closer to life, which I find sad. Granted it can be nice to look at, but I would rather my TV be indistinguishable from a window. The canon seems closer to life, but it also seems very yellow and dull to me.

I was just looking at the file sizes and all the canon files are drastically smaller then the sony files I wonder why this is.

If you go to some of the professional video sites you can get a more biased/expert opinion. There are always fan-boys though...

I'm still not sold on the HV20. I'm going to take a close look at the HC7 and the new JVC Everio first. (If I can get my hands on one..)

I want to make the right choice. The thing is, what's right for me might not be right for someone else.

Cheers,

Kyser

Well this is driving me a bit mad there is FX-7 footage on the site that shows the same scene and there is still what appears to be a lot of noise in the black but you can see that the black surface is textured and you can see the strands on the pink towel much better. After comparing the sony and the canon footage to this I am not that satisfied with either.

I am aware of that, but the sony seems to be calibratible to correct this. I was thinking the greens pop a bit much. It seems like most companies are trying to make HD video more vivid rather then closer to life, which I find sad. Granted it can be nice to look at, but I would rather my TV be indistinguishable from a window. The canon seems closer to life, but it also seems very yellow and dull to me.

I was just looking at the file sizes and all the canon files are drastically smaller then the sony files I wonder why this is.

Having owned a ClearVid Sony HDV which is what HC7 is and Canon HV10 I can tell you that in auto mode Sony ClearVid CMOS just puts out wierd colors in different conditions compared to Canon which a lot more close to real life. In general Sony ClearVid auto mode in outdoor conditions would have too much red and in indoor conditions with white florescent would have too much green. It is a LOT of work to get the color roughtly accurate on my HC3. It looks like the new HC5& HC7 may be plagued with the same color problems.

Try this...

http://media.dvinfo.net/sony/hdrhc7turtle.m2x
You will need Divx or another player that plays m2x files though.

HDR-HC7 out of the box, manual focus, and only white-balanced against a piece of white printer paper (under low watt "Reveal" lightbulbs). a low light sample)

Looks very nice to me!

Having owned a ClearVid Sony HDV which is what HC7 is and Canon HV10 I can tell you that in auto mode Sony ClearVid CMOS just puts out wierd colors in different conditions compared to Canon which a lot more close to real life. In general Sony ClearVid auto mode in outdoor conditions would have too much red and in indoor conditions with white florescent would have too much green. It is a LOT of work to get the color roughtly accurate on my HC3. It looks like the new HC5& HC7 may be plagued with the same color problems.

Well that is disappointing, how about the black appearing noisy like in the video? Is your HC3 fairly clear of noise in the picture? or did this person just not light or encode the scene right? I guess I can deal with the color being a little off as long as I can correct it. I spent many hours correcting the color and resolution on my HDTV so why should this be any different.

Try this...

http://media.dvinfo.net/sony/hdrhc7turtle.m2x
You will need Divx or another player that plays m2x files though.

HDR-HC7 out of the box, manual focus, and only white-balanced against a piece of white printer paper (under low watt "Reveal" lightbulbs). a low light sample)

Looks very nice to me!

Nice that looks a lot better then any of the footage I have seen so far. I also found some more stuff on the forums there. Have you found any other impressive material out there?

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=86045&highlight=HD+hc7 is the link

Nice that looks a lot better then any of the footage I have seen so far. I also found some more stuff on the forums there. Have you found any other impressive material out there?


I thought so as well...
Here's some low-light footage, auto-focus.
http://media.dvinfo.net/sony/hdrhc7indoor.m2x

More film like, but still obviously inferior quality to higher end 24p cameras. My only real concern is the black levels. I really cant tell if all that noise is caused by the camera or the encoding or the lighting or what. I wish I could speak to the person that made this video, but the other shots look really good. I like the sharpness of the canon a bit more, but it just feels like the colors are off to me when I watch it. I am leaning towards poor encoding because the sony file is 85 megs while the canon file is 5 megs. Something had to occur to cause the file to balloon like that granted the sony clip is slightly longer. Open them up side by side and play them both and let me know what you think. This would also explain why the canon looks much sharper in some shots.

Well I've got the HV10 and it's color quality is excellent. I wouldn't expect this to change with the HV20 since it's got essentially the same image processor.

I thought so as well...
Here's some low-light footage, auto-focus.
http://media.dvinfo.net/sony/hdrhc7indoor.m2x

Hm not the best of lighting and quite a bit of noise. Seems like it has lost a lot of resolution too. Is this going to be an issue with any HD camera? Just wondering because I do not remember running into this kind of a picture with the Sony TRV900 that I used to work with. Also it seems like the video was not deinterlaced properly so that might have attributed to the poor quality.

I'm another person on the fence between the HV20 and the HC7. I appreciate the mature, thoughtful discussion in this thread. I'm too used to the HD DVD/Bluray fights in other threads.

I really like the idea of the better low-light performance from the HC7, as the shots I've taken inside with DV cameras (both Sony and Canon) have looked pretty bad.

Do the Canons really have that much better picture quality? I don't know if it's fanboyism, but I read that a lot on boards. The CNET reviews of both cameras (HC3 and HV10) seem to be a wash, but the Wired reviews really prefer the Canon.

I look at that turtle footage from the HC7 and I am quite impressed. Also, the first indoor shot, where he ends up in the kitchen, has great detail on the counter top. Is that banding from post-processing? I don't get banding in his second indoor piece.

BTW, this camera is for filming my new son. He'll start walking toward the end of 2007, so I'll be doing lots of indoor shooting. I am not a pro by any means.

I think you would be fine with either one.
For the price, the Canon looks great. If you prefer the HD recording method... go for the Sony.

One thing though, shooting with tape (Canon) allows you to automatically store a back-up copy off the HD for those keepsakes. Something to think of in case of HD failure.

Good luck!

Isn't the Sony HDR-HC7 a tape-based HDV camera?

Sorry, I was thinking of the new JVC.
I guess it really is down to price/quality.

Like I said earlier, you will probably be happy with either.

You get the HC7 and I'll get the HV20

That way the forum is covered. ;)

I really like the idea of the better low-light performance from the HC7

The specs don't actually support this. The HC7 is 5 lux at 1/30 shutter speed while the HV20 is approx. 3 lux at 1/30 shutter speed.

The specs don't actually support this. The HC7 is 5 lux at 1/30 shutter speed while the HV20 is approx. 3 lux at 1/30 shutter speed.

I was talking about an improvement over the previous gen. Good to know though. Thanks.

I'll keep an eye on this forum.

Just for the record... The cmos in the HC7 is bigger than that of the HV20.

In fact if you look at effective pixels the HC7 is now the bigger one.... a big step up from the HC3

Just for the record... The cmos in the HC7 is bigger than that of the HV20.

how is it bigger? HC7: 1/2.9" vs HV20: 1/2.7"

The specs don't actually support this. The HC7 is 5 lux at 1/30 shutter speed while the HV20 is approx. 3 lux at 1/30 shutter speed.

Actually, there is a lot of conflicting info on this sort of thing right now... the sony sheets have lux at 2 (I find that a little hard to believe) but we'll know for sure when camcorderinfo does the detailed review.

I dont trust camcorder low light reviews anymore. they had the hv10 as poor in low light settings but real world tests by users showed it much better than rated by camcorderinfo.

I am still on the fence when it comes to this issue I just want the best bang for my buck. I dont mind paying more if it is truly more, but with sony I always have skepticism since they started relying on there name a few years ago. So I am trying to be at patient as I can.

So I am trying to be at patient as I can.

That's my biggest problem now!

The HC 7 is out, you could go have a look at it. Compare it to the HV10, consider what the new HV20 offers over the HV10, and make a decision.

I think both camera will be pretty good.

The only reason why I'm going with the HV20 is for 24p. I'm getting into making short films and I want that "Film-look" on a budget.

Kysersose,

I just read in your sig that you're in Ottawa. One of the events we want to capture in HD is a 1/2 marathon in Ottawa that I'm running with some friends in April (and before the HV20 is out). My wife wants to get footage of our group, and I think that will look great in High Def.

I lived there for ten years, in Old Ottawa South.

Currently living in New Ottawa South myself, small world.
Have family in NB as well...

Cheers,

Kyser

Currently living in New Ottawa South myself, small world.
Have family in NB as well...

Cheers,

Kyser

Too funny!

I got one brother living in Ottawa and the other brother living in NB! (I'm in Winnipeg)

Pulled the trigger on the HC7.

I can't compare it to any other HDV camera, but I'm quite impressed with both the clarity of the image, and the performance in low light. I am comparing this to both Canon and Sony DV cameras.

I took some footage of the Legislature building here in NB using a tripod, and the clarity of the footage would not make it out of place on those HD travel shows on PBS. It's not the best HD I've seen, but it is not jarringly less detailed. Also, I put the camera on a stack of DVDs, and filmed my 3 month old son (with light from a window), and the resulting footage has stunning detail.

I don't know how shaky most cameras are, so I can't speak to the image stabilization. The hand-held footage is good, but obviously there is more clarity when the camera is on a tripod, or some other surface.

As for low light, all I can say is I can film with less light than I could with the DV cameras I used before, which was a major consideration for buying this camera. I captured some DV footage in my kitchen with overhead lights, lights under the cabinets and light over the stove. This DV footage is darker than footage I captured with the HC7 with less lights on in the room.

I used Vista to create a wmv file to watch on my XBOX 360. The result was as detailed as connecting the HC7 to the TV through HDMI.

Sony includes software that lets you stream footage as M2T and downrez to and burn a DVD. You can even set up a menu where users select which clip they want to see.

Glad to hear your review of pull the trigger on the HC7... I was about to post this..

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HC7 vs HV20

Man, these two models looks sweet! I suppose there hasn't been a real head to head comparison yet that I can find. Am I splitting hairs at this point by trying to decide between these two?

Canon-
24p on the Canon
1100

HC7-
Color and Sensor size
Night Shot
1300

Outside of that, aren't they new exact...?

Anyone with HC7 want to vouch for it? At least it's out. However, I haven't seen but 2 reviews (of which it appears to be the same review on site after site).

By the way, can I record SD on an HD miniDV?
Or does SD on record on a standard miniDV?

Yes... Most HD cams give you the option of shooting as HDV or DV.

BDUB12:

Glad to hear you're the new owner of a HC7! What I need to know is whether or not it's a wild step up from the HC3. I'm toying with the idea of upgrading to either the HC7 or the HV20.... I'm leaning towards the HC7 though. The canon has 24p recording which I will probably never use.... but I'm forever using the night vision on my HC3.

If you get a chance to compare your HC7 to a HC3... let me know your thoughts!

thanks

Do I have to have the HD Media - HD mini DV or can you record to HD on as standard mini-dv tape?

As for low light, all I can say is I can film with less light than I could with the DV cameras I used before, which was a major consideration for buying this camera. I captured some DV footage in my kitchen with overhead lights, lights under the cabinets and light over the stove. This DV footage is darker than footage I captured with the HC7 with less lights on in the room.


Congratulations ! Which DV cameras are you comparing it to. I have both the TRV900 and TRV950 and am wondering how the HC7 does in low light compared to them. I use my cameras underwater and low light performance is especially important to me.

Do I have to have the HD Media - HD mini DV or can you record to HD on as standard mini-dv tape?

Standard mini dv tape works just fine with HD recording. You can even switch back and forth between dv and HDV on the same tape... this does however pose a bit of a problem when editing though... because your editor can not switch back and forth while capturing.

Divedude, I think you're beyond the level of the DV camcorders I've borrowed from friends. The Canon is a ZR 60. The Sony was pretty cheap. I didn't write down the model number.

I wish some site would just film the same content with both cameras to end the debate. Even if the HV20 comes out on top, the HC7 really impresses me, and is fine for chasing my son around with.

bdub12,

Thanks for the reply. I really want to go HD underwater, but I am afraid the small HD cameras don't have the light gathering ability of the bigger HD cameras, such as the FX1. And the FX1 with housing and lights comes in at over 40 lbs. More than I want to push around against currents. The FX7 with housing isn't much smaller. With UW the camera is the least of the cost.

Ok guys - I like what I am hearing.

The real debate for me now is HC7 versus HV10. Time has run out. I can get the HC7 for 300 bucks more then the HV10. They have their + / - s. Either way, they are both sweet.

Is the night shot and ergonomics worth the extra bucks?


Someone tell me about extended warranty. What's the current mode of thought? Buy it from Sony. Don't buy it at all? Buy it from the retailer? I was planning on 4 year from Sony.

Ok ... HC7...HV10?

Well - I jumped.... waiting.... waiting.... and waiting for the FedEx truck to arrive. 2 Day air... yeah, because that will make a difference in a 2 weeks.

HC7. I will post a review of some sort since there aren't many out there. I will only compare it to my expectations.

Thanks for the help all.

Ok guys - I like what I am hearing.

The real debate for me now is HC7 versus HV10. Time has run out. I can get the HC7 for 300 bucks more then the HV10. They have their + / - s. Either way, they are both sweet.

Is the night shot and ergonomics worth the extra bucks?


Someone tell me about extended warranty. What's the current mode of thought? Buy it from Sony. Don't buy it at all? Buy it from the retailer? I was planning on 4 year from Sony.

Ok ... HC7...HV10?

Wait for the HV20 and have your cake and eat it too. The HV20 will have the same ergonomics as the Sonys, but with the Canon picture quality that everyone is raving about.

I am thinking of buying the HD7.

Can I record in HD, then output via the digital connection (1394?) on the camera to the digital input on my DVD recorder (Lite-On from Costco) and make a high-quality DVD? I know it won't be in HD.... but can the Sony "downconvert" the HD to regular DVD resolution via the digital connection? I just want to easily make normal DVDs.

Yes, HC7 lets you select either HD or SD output from the same HD source.

Wait for the HV20 and have your cake and eat it too. The HV20 will have the same ergonomics as the Sonys, but with the Canon picture quality that everyone is raving about.

I would love to give the HV20 a chance... but I'm seeing this as less and less of a possibility. I use night vision a lot on my HC3... something that the canon does not offer.... I'm thinking this would be too much of a minus (for me anyway).

Yes, HC7 lets you select either HD or SD output from the same HD source.

Great! Thanks.

Another question about the HC7... should I buy a certain miniDV tape or will most decent tapes suffice for good quality and long term storage? I bought an 8 pack of TDK's from Costco and am wondering if they are good enough or if I should get a better quality tape or if the TDKs are good tapes.

Another question about the HC7... should I buy a certain miniDV tape or will most decent tapes suffice for good quality and long term storage? I bought an 8 pack of TDK's from Costco and am wondering if they are good enough or if I should get a better quality tape or if the TDKs are good tapes.

Sony has a more expensive "HDV" tape, but to the best of my knowledge it's just more robust than a standard DV tape. I think they may offer fewer dropped frames. I would get that type of tape if you are constantly recording over the same tape. The 1s and 0s don't know how little you paid for the tape!

Personally, I'm just buying regular DV tapes, and keeping them when they're full.

I am thinking of buying the HD7.

Can I record in HD, then output via the digital connection (1394?) on the camera to the digital input on my DVD recorder (Lite-On from Costco) and make a high-quality DVD? I know it won't be in HD.... but can the Sony "downconvert" the HD to regular DVD resolution via the digital connection? I just want to easily make normal DVDs.

The software that comes with the camera allows you to author DVDs on your PC from the streamed HD footage. It's not bad. You can add a DVD menu of thumbnails for the clips as well.

Computer speed is an issue though. I have an AMD 2500 processor with 512 mb of RAM. Due to the speed issue, I lose frames, causing the software to start a new file. All my clips are 2 seconds! I plan to buy a new PC with Vista so I can use Movie Maker and author wmv discs for my XBOX 360. I experimented on a friend's Vista box, and it works well.

Hopefully whichever camera I get the hc7 or the dv20 it will work on my robust, non vista, computer using adobe premiere pro 2.0. And of course it would be nice if blue ray and hd dvd recorders would be available at a reasonable cost.

Hopefully whichever camera I get the hc7 or the dv20 it will work on my robust, non vista, computer using adobe premiere pro 2.0. And of course it would be nice if blue ray and hd dvd recorders would be available at a reasonable cost.

The only reason I mention Vista is because I need to upgrade anyway, and Movie Maker supports HDV and HD WMV, and it's free with Vista Premium. I'll probably buy Premier Elements if I get tired of Movie Maker.

Now after reading videomaker mag and going on line, I have a new camera to consider, the JVC HD7. 60 gig hard drive. great lens and lots of features. Higher list price, 1800 and you probably have to spend another 400 on their backup drive. Will be out in April... Check it out, any comments...

The JVC HD7 also has three CCD chips and a Fujinon lens. Do not know what lux it is.

I am breaking the HC7 out of the box. Wow. Small. Nice.
I am afraid I am going to drop this thing like a hot potatoe.

Any way, first comment - buy a 4 to 6 pin Firewire converter while you are picking up misc. items. They ship the HC7 with 4 to 4 pin. If you are going to transfer to a desktop...you will need a 6 pin. I just spend $25 for a cable that you can get at amazon for 12.

Any way - more later.

I am breaking the HC7 out of the box. Wow. Small. Nice.
I am afraid I am going to drop this thing like a hot potatoe.

Any way, first comment - buy a 4 to 6 pin Firewire converter while you are picking up misc. items. They ship the HC7 with 4 to 4 pin. If you are going to transfer to a desktop...you will need a 6 pin. I just spend $25 for a cable that you can get at amazon for 12.

Any way - more later.
Great! Keep us informed... my HC7 should get here tomorrow!

FYI:

I bought and returned an HP Pavillion 17something after it couldn't convert HDV to WMV in Vista Movie Maker. It had 4600x2 AMD and 2 gigs of RAM. It just stopped converting at some point. I tried different bits of video, and different lengths, to the same end.

A friend's custom-built system with the same specs converted the file with no problem. So if you are planning on converting HDV to WMV or some other format, I'd try it out at the store first before buying a computer.

I'll have to go the custom-built route now. I'm no computer genius, but I think it's an issue with the quality of the motherboard.

Wait for the HV20 and have your cake and eat it too. The HV20 will have the same ergonomics as the Sonys, but with the Canon picture quality that everyone is raving about.

I wouldn't jump to that conclusion just yet..

The HC7 DOES in fact have a larger GROSS and EFFECTIVE pixel rating. It looks like better stills as well.


http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Canon-HV20-Canon-HV10-Sony-HDR-HC7-and-Sony-HDR-HC5-Camcorders-Compared.htm


In fact, if you look, there has been no increase in cmos quality/size between the HV10 and the HV20.... but a massive change between the HC3 and the HC7. The HC7 stands to be much better than the HC3, where as there will be little change between the HV10 and 20.

But the HV10 was superior to the HC3, so Sony had to do something to catch up. There's one other important point and it certainly is worth mentioning. One of the key aspects to the superior picture quality of the Canon HV10 is the incredibly low noise floor of the picture.....lower even than my Sony FX7. Now you know that the noise of the HC7 will not be as good as the 3-chip FX7, so it's pretty clear to me the Canon will remain the picture quality leader.

There are already numerous reports of noise in the Sony HC7 picture. When you see the Canon HV10 picture on a big screen HDTV, you are immediately struck by the professionally low levels of picture noise (in decent to good lighting). Frankly I've never seen anything like it and I've owned the following: HC1, HC3, FX1 and my current FX7. Canon has the picture thing nailed. :)

Oh yes, don't get hung up by how many gross pixels or effective pixels a given camcorder has, look at the picture.

Hey, if you're happy with your cam then that's what matters... me... I want to see the reviews on these extra pixels before I pull the trigger.

Quite often, these so-called reports are a little too linked to the person that owns the cam, the tv they display it on, the circumstances the shoot was under... yadda yadda.

Outfits like camcorderinfo.com do the best they can at leveling the playing field so that everything gets tested on an even keel. They're certainly not perfect... but it's not hear-say either.

I'll wait for the reviews... it would be a shame to spend that kind of money only to find that you have made a mistake. I'll probably go with the HC7 anyway, it has more of the things that I would use on a cam.

I've used my HC7 a little bit. The video quality indoors with artificial lighting is decent but outside with good lighting it is GREAT. The color was awesome on the video of some outdoor flowers in good lighting. Of course I wish it were better with low lighting, but it's amazing that they can pack so much into such a small package in the first place. If someone wants to give me an HV20, then I can make a comparison! I'm pretty happy, but wish I had a 1080P TV to play it on. My TV is 720P and I think a 1080P TV would address some of the minor issues I saw with straight lines and motion and some flickering.

I would LOVE to know how the increased size in the cmos on the HC7 compares to the HC3... I keep checking camcorder.com for reviews... but still nothing :(

Well, with some time to play around with the HC7 and finding out that all I really need to do is to turn on more lights, I've decided to keep the HC7. Got a chance to watch some indoor night footage at 88" diag and it looks pretty good. Still a littlge grainy but looks ok.

So can anyone recommend an fairly inexpensive, portable, and good/effective light to use with the HC7 for indoor scenes?

Hey, if you're happy with your cam then that's what matters... me... I want to see the reviews on these extra pixels before I pull the trigger.

Quite often, these so-called reports are a little too linked to the person that owns the cam, the tv they display it on, the circumstances the shoot was under... yadda yadda.

Outfits like camcorderinfo.com do the best they can at leveling the playing field so that everything gets tested on an even keel. They're certainly not perfect... but it's not hear-say either.

I'll wait for the reviews... it would be a shame to spend that kind of money only to find that you have made a mistake. I'll probably go with the HC7 anyway, it has more of the things that I would use on a cam.

Actually, many people put far more stock in owner reviews than sites such as 'camcorderinfo.com'. That site has been slammed by many for poor testing techniques and statements that are often contradictory. I've found a few of those in some of their reviews and posted such on their site. I prefer owners reports (of people I trust) and, the best evidence, native m2t. files that don't lie. In fact, I bought my HV10 based on the m2t. files I downloaded from an owner in Japan and then put those files in my editing program. I then spit them back to tape and played them on my 50" plasma. At that point it was exactly the same as if I had shot those scenes myself. That was a 1,000 times better than any review I've ever read. Those clips utterly floored me and certainly exceeded any HDV cam I had owned before.

But hey, if you trust a site like camcorderinfo.com, they already tested the HV10 and found it had the highest resolution of any cam in its class.... higher than most of the megabuck cams! I believe they also mentioned that it had remarkably low noise. If you've seen professional footage, that's the thing that gets you about the HV10, that incredibly low noise, absolutely unparalleled in consumer cams. ;)

Besides, you've pretty much made up your mind on what you want before any reviews, any clips or any user reports. That's fine for you since your needs may be different, but my determining factor is pure picture quality and that's what I wait for. I'll tend to go with the best PQ and perhaps sacrifice a nicety or two. Of course if the HV20 has essentially the HV10's PQ with improved low-light and all the additional features plus the 24p shooting, then for me its a slam dunk 'win win'. :)

Actually, many people put far more stock in owner reviews than sites such as 'camcorderinfo.com'. That site has been slammed by many for poor testing techniques and statements that are often contradictory. I've found a few of those in some of their reviews and posted such on their site. I prefer owners reports (of people I trust) and, the best evidence, native m2t. files that don't lie. In fact, I bought my HV10 based on the m2t. files I downloaded from an owner in Japan and then put those files in my editing program. I then spit them back to tape and played them on my 50" plasma. At that point it was exactly the same as if I had shot those scenes myself. That was a 1,000 times better than any review I've ever read. Those clips utterly floored me and certainly exceeded any HDV cam I had owned before.

But hey, if you trust a site like camcorderinfo.com, they already tested the HV10 and found it had the highest resolution of any cam in its class.... higher than most of the megabuck cams! I believe they also mentioned that it had remarkably low noise. If you've seen professional footage, that's the thing that gets you about the HV10, that incredibly low noise, absolutely unparalleled in consumer cams. ;)

Besides, you've pretty much made up your mind on what you want before any reviews, any clips or any user reports. That's fine for you since your needs may be different, but my determining factor is pure picture quality and that's what I wait for. I'll tend to go with the best PQ and perhaps sacrifice a nicety or two. Of course if the HV20 has essentially the HV10's PQ with improved low-light and all the additional features plus the 24p shooting, then for me its a slam dunk 'win win'. :)


Ken,

I have NO idea what you are trying to saying here...

If you trust people's reviews instead of camcorderinfo.com then the HV20 won't be such a good deal:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=88008


On the other hand, camcorderinfo.com gave the HV10 an extremely warm review in terms of picture quality.... but then you are saying they should not be trusted and tend to get "slammed for poor testing techniques and statements that are often contradictory"


????

I know you like the HV10 and i am not knocking it at all. Under ideal conditions it will produce an image of incredible quality... I don't dispute that for a second... but from my point of view the cam ITSELF was less than ideal, and in my book, the entire package must be there.

It SEEMS as though they have heard the complaints of the HV10 thus the HV20 shows itself.... We'll see what the reviews say.

Ken Ross]Actually, many people put far more stock in owner reviews than sites such as 'camcorderinfo.com'. That site has been slammed by many for poor testing techniques and statements that are often contradictory. I've found a few of those in some of their reviews and posted such on their site. I prefer owners reports (of people I trust) and, the best evidence, native m2t. files that don't lie.

Franky this sounds like you discount the camcorderinfo review(s) because it doesn't tell you that YOUR camcorder is the greatest--therefore you prefer hearsay from the general public.

I just dont understand this "brand loyalty" nonsense whether apple vs pc, dSLR nikon versus canon versus pentax versus sony etc. The brand one owns in no way makes you a more worthy or "cooler" person. And these large multinational corporations for sure don't have any loyalty to you. End of the day, just shows how effective marketing is at brainwashing.

Not saying this necessarily about you Ken, rather "fanboys" in general.

In the last few years I have come to put more faith in owner reviews as long as there is a large enough data base. I think with these professional review sites you never know if the reviewers have any hehind the scene affiliation with the manufactures and therefore their views somewhat tainted. But on forums like this you can't exclude the possibility of someone having a hidden agenda or a vested interest with certain product they express their opinion on. Most readers are smart enough to detect that kind of tendencies.

FYI:

I bought and returned an HP Pavillion 17something after it couldn't convert HDV to WMV in Vista Movie Maker. It had 4600x2 AMD and 2 gigs of RAM. It just stopped converting at some point. I tried different bits of video, and different lengths, to the same end.

A friend's custom-built system with the same specs converted the file with no problem. So if you are planning on converting HDV to WMV or some other format, I'd try it out at the store first before buying a computer.

I'll have to go the custom-built route now. I'm no computer genius, but I think it's an issue with the quality of the motherboard.

That's interesting to know, I don't have a HD camcorder yet but I have a HP Media Center computer I bought last Sept. that has the AMD Athlon 64x2 Dual Core Processor 3800 + 2.00GHZ 960 MB of RAM, I don't have vista but it's Vista preium ready and I wonder if and when I get a camcorder would I have the same problem? I'm not a computer guru but if I need more of what ever I guess it's good to know now.

I have never owned a camcorder but I'm very interested in what the Sony HD HC7 can do. After reading for about two weeks now and seeing some sample clips I'm hooked! I'm also catching up on the techie jargon like ISO, lux, 24p etc. etc. I have eight grand-kids so filming parties etc is a must. For those of you that have the pleasure of owning a HD camcorder let me ask this question, with a HD camcorder when filming off road motorcycle action, or fast racing scenes is a tripod a must or can I just quick left or right swing the camcorder?
Thanks
Jake

Ken,

I have NO idea what you are trying to saying here..
Just that reports from trusted owners can be more useful than reviews that are often glossed over. Owners tend to put their units through the paces in a far more involved manner than many of the testing sites. As I said, if you're familair with the person who's commenting on his new unit, this can go a long way in putting the 'quality puzzle' together.

If you trust people's reviews instead of camcorderinfo.com then the HV20 won't be such a good deal:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=88008 .

I never trust a jpeg to tell me about the video quality of any camcorder. As was accurately stated in that thread, there could be many reasons why there was grain in that one jpeg capture. Same processor, same processing, should be similar. So a word to the wise, don't trust .jpegs to judge a video camera.

On the other hand, camcorderinfo.com gave the HV10 an extremely warm review in terms of picture quality.... but then you are saying they should not be trusted and tend to get "slammed for poor testing techniques and statements that are often contradictory"


????.

Yes I know, but cci.com is notorious for some very sloppy reporting. They'll rate 2 units with exactly the same tested resolution, yet give them totally different scores for resolution. I had to point that out to them in 1 review and they did correct it. But people that simply saw the # might walk away with misleading info. I can't tell you how many pieces of equipment I've bought over the years that performed totally differently than 'reviewers' said they did. Just take a look at how people react to CNET....many 'owner's reports' are 180 out of synch from the CNET editor's reviews. These guys don't know anymore, and sometimes a lot less, that others.


I know you like the HV10 and i am not knocking it at all. Under ideal conditions it will produce an image of incredible quality... I don't dispute that for a second... but from my point of view the cam ITSELF was less than ideal, and in my book, the entire package must be there.

It SEEMS as though they have heard the complaints of the HV10 thus the HV20 shows itself.... We'll see what the reviews say.

Yes, I agree. In fact it's like they listened to virtually every complaint and have addressed it! Very very rare in a company these days. That's why so many people, including those with very expensive pro-Canon gear, are looking forward to this unit. Just the 24p recording alone has gotten many people excited since it's unheard of in a camera of this size and price! :)

Camcorderinfo.com official HC7 review....

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Sony-HDR-HC7-Camcorder-Review.htm

Jeez, the cci review makes me want to check out the HC3 in low-level light. I assumed the grain I was seeing was an improvement, or at least the same as the HC3, but it seems to be worse from their testing!

One of the selling points of the HC7 was "improved" low-level light performance. The Sony might have to go back to the store. I'll wait for that HV20 review.

Yeah... I think I'll be hanging on to the HC3... the HC7 certainly does not appear to be any kind of real step up.

We'll see how the HV20 fairs.

Ouch... I wish the HV20 was out when I decided to buy an HD cam. I bought the HC7. Been happy with it though but the review doesn't look so good.

By the way, the HC7 is currently about $1169 on amazon.com with free shipping.

Ok, here's my unscientific comparison of the HC3 and HC7 in low light. Camcorderinfo.com was quite impressed with the low level light on the HC3, and criticized the HC7's performance, so I thought I'd compare.

I went to the Sony Store, and checked out both in the dark area out back by the TVs. We switched TVs half-way through to confirm that the differences weren't the result of the TVs (SXRDs). This area of the store is similar to the darkest conditions where I would be using the camera at home. The cameras were on automatic settings.

The HC3 image is slightly brighter than the HC7's, but the HC7 displays no more grain (at least to my eyes) than the HC3 does in the same light. So a darker, but not a noisier picture.

The HC7 image is slightly crisper, and the colours are slightly better.

If your Sony Store has an HC3 left, they're under $1200 now (Canadian).

I'm keeping my HC7 for now. I like the optical image stabilization. If the Canon HV20 turns out to be the second coming, I think the fact that Sony advertised the HC7 as a camera with improved low-level light performance as reason enough to return it.

The CCI review on the HC7 is sure going to cause a fuss. For no reason I think. I did almsot the same thing bdub12 did. I compared HC3 and HC7 in a room with only a 60 watt bulb to illuminate it and lots of dark areas to capture. I adjusted all the settings on both cams to match each other including white balance and exposure. When they were mirrored, settings wise, I took a fair amout of footage from each area of the room. I uploaded the video onto my PC via Vegas and viewed the raw M2T files on my HD Viewsonic screen. Defintiely no more noise on the HC7. Like bdub12 said the HC3 was a tad brighter but the image was sharper and the color was more accurate on the HC7, noise was not any worse for either cam but my eyes were leaning almost toward the HC7 having a tad less noise. Nonetheless it was real close and some might not see any difference. I am just up in arms about the CCI review and glad I don't take their reviews seriously, never did. I never found anything they would say to have a lot of weight, and this latest review borders on ridiculous. I am just waiting for more people that have the HC7 to chime in. I just posted a short summary of my HC7 in the "phew I just returned my HC7" thread for those that want to see how I rate the HC7.