We know that Warner titles that have been released on HD DVD with an IME (in-movie experience) track are on hold until the equivalent interactivity on BD is operational. Officially this would be sorted out in the second half of this year.

In the meantime, French site dvdrama.com has gained access to the hidef slate Warner has for 2007 in France. Of course, there are lots of great titles on Blu-ray coming up, but what is worrying is that the IME drought extends until November.

Indeed, the Matrix films (to be released June-August) will be released on HD DVD with an IME track, but won't be released at all on Blu-ray. Not only that, but the Harry Potter films will reportedly be released in November on HD DVD, though not on Blu-ray.

This affects also new releases such as Zack Snyder/Frank Miller's 300.

Short message: Sun, get your ass moving and give us full BD-J!

Warner has already said that they will catch up with Blu-ray this year. They have also indicated a strong desire to use TotalHD - which would no doubt see use on their higher profile titles. I don't think a leaked HD list for France has much bearing on the US (which will no doubt see these titles before their EU equivalents).

You better hope you're right. Releasing the Matrix/Harry Potter trilogy on HD-DVD exclusively, even if it's just for a few months, is going to do a LOT to sell a few Toshiba players.

If that list is correct, and November is the time, then it may not even be an issue, depending on how well the PS3 launch goes.

How do you mean?

How do you mean?
He obviously means that the PS3 will probably decide the war in Europe, so that Toshiba will just get white in the face, admit defeat, pull all HD DVD players and convert to offering Blu-Ray players instead. Something like that...

He obviously means that the PS3 will probably decide the war in Europe, so that Toshiba will just get white in the face, admit defeat, pull all HD DVD players and convert to offering Blu-Ray players instead. Something like that...

Oh, I see. Of course that's what is going to happen. :rolleyes:

This is exactly what I was afraid of when the BDA had no new announcements it terms of Hardware at CES.

It's nice we got a long list of new titles. But that does not mean all that much if you don't get the hardware up to speed.

BDA, where is BD-J and Advanced Audio Decoding in the players?!!!!!!

These are critical features and should not be missing in $1,200.00 players!

I never bought into the concept that software content is going to win this war.
People are not going to buy high priced standalone players when it is unclear if they will be firmware upgradeable and when the updates will be available.

Panasonic has been the ONLY CE that has stated they will have advanced audio decoding in april via a firmware update. Why are the rest of the CE's so silent on these issues?

And fanboys please don't bring up the PS3. Adoption of Blu Ray by the general public will not be achieved thru the PS3.

This has been an extremely poor rollout of a new technology and it is frustrating.

Warner was very clear that once they start releasing TotalHD discs that they will only release TotalHD discs. They weren't as clear as to when this would be, only saying the second half of 2007.

Lets hope BDJ authoring tools are "mature" by then.

This is exactly what I was afraid of when the BDA had no new announcements it terms of Hardware at CES.


What do you mean, Sony and Samsung both announced new players. Hitachi had a few at their boot as well and Pioneer admitted to having a new one in the works (no announcement). Considering every Blu-ray player except Samsung came out within 2 months of CES I thought this was kinda surprising that they would announce new players.

I think all existing players have now been upgraded with BD-J compatibility

This is exactly what I was afraid of when the BDA had no new announcements it terms of Hardware at CES.

No new hardware= no Batman Begins? I don't follow that logic! As pointed out a raft of players were announced at CES but that was conveniently ignored by the HD DVD spin committee. Not to mention Sony's two players and more BD drives!

Here's the list. I think we should remember that things can and will change. Once WB are satisfied there's compatibility, they'll announce the titles

The Lake House 31st Jan
The Lady in The Water 28th Feb

March 26, 2007
Superman Returns 26th March
Blazing Saddles 26th March
Batman Begins (IME) (HD-DVD only) 26th March

April 25, 2007
The Corpse Bride 25th April
The Island 25th April
Poseidon (IME) (HD-DVD only) 25th April
Charlie and chocolate factory (IME) (HD-DVD only) 25th April

May 2007
Flags of our fathers
Superman I
Unforgiven
Enter the Dragon
The Last samurai
Goodfellas (Blu Ray only)

June 2007
The Prestige
Natural Born Killers
V for Vendetta (HD-DVD only)
Matrix (IME) (HD-DVD only)

July 2007
Mad max 2
Bullit
The Getaway
Matrix Reloaded (IME) (HD-DVD only)

August 2007
Casablanca
The Goonies
Matrix Revolutions (IME) (HD-DVD only)
Happy Feet
Letters of Iwo Jima

September 2007
L.A. Confidential
Blade Runner
Poltergeist
Blood Diamond (HD-DVD only)
Zodiac
300 (IME) (HD-DVD only)

October 2007
Dirty Harry
The Enforcer
Sudden Impact
Magnum force
The Dead Pool
Music & Lyrics
The Reaping

November 2007
The Ant Bully
Scooby Doo
The Polar Express ((HD-DVD only)
Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone (IME) (HD-DVD only)
Harry Potter and the chamber of secrets (IME) (HD-DVD only)
Harry Potter and the prisoner of Azkaban (IME) (HD-DVD only)
Harry Potter and Goblet of fire (IME) (HD-DVD only)

December 2007
2001: A Space odyssey
The Shining
A Clockwork orange
Eyes Wide Shut
Ocean'S eleven (1960)
Ocean'S eleven
Ocean'S twelve
The Wizard of OZ

Some previously unannounced titles there.Personally I'm only interested in The Goonies and The Wizard of Oz

What do you mean, Sony and Samsung both announced new players. Hitachi had a few at their boot as well and Pioneer admitted to having a new one in the works (no announcement). Considering every Blu-ray player except Samsung came out within 2 months of CES I thought this was kinda surprising that they would announce new players.

Ok, then tell me which one (Sony, Samsung, Pioneer....etc) had anything to say about BDJ, Advanced Audio Decoding, and BD Live availability in their players.

I'll answer it for you, NONE.

No clear answer has been provided on these points. Panasonic has been the only one addressing it.

These are mandated feature sets by the BDA and the players don't have them.

Partial implementation of BDJ has happened. But authoring tools have not been made available to the Studios yet.

Ok, then tell me which one (Sony, Samsung, Pioneer....etc) had anything to say about BDJ, Advanced Audio Decoding, and BD Live availability in their players.

I'll answer it for you, NONE.

No clear answer has been provided on these points. Panasonic has been the only one addressing it.

These are mandated feature sets by the BDA and the players don't have them.

Partial implementation of BDJ has happened. But authoring tools have not been made available to the Studios yet.

On the back of the jacket of The Guardian Blu-ray is a note that says the interactive Q&A feature with the director will ONLY work on the PS3.

That says a lot about just how crippled the current batch of BD players on the market really is.

Partial implementation of BDJ has happened. But authoring tools have not been made available to the Studios yet.

Clearly a small studio like WB can't compete with Lionsgate and Fox who have BD-J titles out. I'll guess they'll have to wait for these tools

This is exactly what I was afraid of when the BDA had no new announcements it terms of Hardware at CES.

It's nice we got a long list of new titles. But that does not mean all that much if you don't get the hardware up to speed.

BDA, where is BD-J and Advanced Audio Decoding in the players?!!!!!!

These are critical features and should not be missing in $1,200.00 players!

I never bought into the concept that software content is going to win this war.
People are not going to buy high priced standalone players when it is unclear if they will be firmware upgradeable and when the updates will be available.

Panasonic has been the ONLY CE that has stated they will have advanced audio decoding in april via a firmware update. Why are the rest of the CE's so silent on these issues?

And fanboys please don't bring up the PS3. Adoption of Blu Ray by the general public will not be achieved thru the PS3.

This has been an extremely poor rollout of a new technology and it is frustrating.

The lack of BD-J is completely embarrassing for Blu-ray.

But as far as hardware announcements, BD had plenty.

Panasonic announced a new player
Pioneer announced a new player
LG announced a new player
Samsung announced a new player
Sony announced TWO new players.

What more did you want for new player announcements?

all HD DVD did was have one company announce a couple of new players and say the chinese will make a few crappy ones. I don't know how that translates to "HD DVD won CES".

As far as the audio codecs being decoded in the players, the PS3 does it and the new receivers do it. Is it stupid to buy a $1200.00 player that may or may not be able to decode the audio codecs? My guess is that if you have the scratch to buy one of them you will get one of the new receivers anyway. if not, just get the PS3 and any HDMI receiver. Problem solved.

Clearly a small studio like WB can't compete with Lionsgate and Fox who have BD-J titles out. I'll guess they'll have to wait for these tools

NOBODY has BD-J for IME. Lionsgate printed the movie twice on their discs, once with IME, once without.

And fanboys please don't bring up the PS3. Adoption of Blu Ray by the general public will not be achieved thru the PS3.



Ok, where exactly would blu-ray be right now without PS3? Not even at 100,000 stand-alone sales (and that 100,000 is fairly generous, rumors actually point to a lower figure). PS3 is what drives blu-ray, so much so that many people even have gone so far as to state that blu-ray didn't even launch 'in full' until PS3 did. The 'earlier' launch was just to prevent HD DVD group from gaining a bigger 'beach head' since it's very doubtful early adopters would have waited over 6 months when HD movies were already available on another format.

Ok, where exactly would blu-ray be right now without PS3? Not even at 100,000 stand-alone sales (and that 100,000 is fairly generous, rumors actually point to a lower figure). PS3 is what drives blu-ray, so much so that many people even have gone so far as to state that blu-ray didn't even launch 'in full' until PS3 did. The 'earlier' launch was just to prevent HD DVD group from gaining a bigger 'beach head' since it's very doubtful early adopters would have waited over 6 months when HD movies were already available on another format.


where would hddvd with out 360??? Majority of hd dvd players in homes is 90k+ 360 players compared to 40k stand alones. like it or not, videogame systems has alot to do with the next gen movie formats.

NOBODY has BD-J for IME. Lionsgate printed the movie twice on their discs, once with IME, once without.

I assume you mean PiP not IME. Either way it's a BD-J disc! I have yet to see anything that actually shows that they used two seperate streams either, it's just a baseless accusation

And fanboys please don't bring up the PS3. Adoption of Blu Ray by the general public will not be achieved thru the PS3.

People keep saying that, yet the upswing in BD software sales after the PS3 US launch makes me think the PS3 is significant, especially if standalone player numbers are as low as we've seen. Your opinion differs, obviously, but anecdotal evidence would appear to prove you wrong for the time being.

But as far as hardware announcements, BD had plenty.IIRC, Sharp also announced a new BD player.

The lack of BD-J is completely embarrassing for Blu-ray.

But as far as hardware announcements, BD had plenty.

Panasonic announced a new player
Pioneer announced a new player
LG announced a new player
Samsung announced a new player
Sony announced TWO new players.

What more did you want for new player announcements?

all HD DVD did was have one company announce a couple of new players and say the chinese will make a few crappy ones. I don't know how that translates to "HD DVD won CES".

As far as the audio codecs being decoded in the players, the PS3 does it and the new receivers do it. Is it stupid to buy a $1200.00 player that may or may not be able to decode the audio codecs? My guess is that if you have the scratch to buy one of them you will get one of the new receivers anyway. if not, just get the PS3 and any HDMI receiver. Problem solved.


Guy's, what I am bringing up has nothing to do with HD DVD, they have their own problems, so let's not turn this into a format war thread.

New player announcements with nothing to say about their specs helps no one. Having a prototype of a new player sitting behind glass with nothing to say about it's onboard features is useless.

The PS3 is great for for us who are tech minded and like to play around with their gear. The general public will not put up with that.

It is not about scratch. It's about leaving people with installed systems High and Dry.

Look at me for example. I'm running a Halcro SSP80 into a Theta Dreadnaught II. My Halcro has analog 7.1 inputs but does not support Multi channel LPCM over HDMI. Upgrade for MCLPCM is coming in March-April but Advanced Audio Decoding not in the near future. (PS3 Does not work for me!)

So, I'm supposed to dump my $7000 preamp because the BDA can't get their act together on Advanced Audio Decoding.

Don't think so, I just won't buy in until they have it.

And I tell you that I am far from being alone in this scenario.

So, its a little arrogant to state that if you have the scratch for a new player you have it for a new receiver.

It's not that simple.

People keep saying that, yet the upswing in BD software sales after the PS3 US launch makes me think the PS3 is significant, especially if standalone player numbers are as low as we've seen. Your opinion differs, obviously, but anecdotal evidence would appear to prove you wrong for the time being.

These upswings are about early adopters and not about acceptance by the general public. They are different areas. I never questioned the PS3 being used by the likes of us or gamers. That was a given.

In my case I can't use the PS3 in my setup and have to wait for a Standalone player which has been very frustrating for me.

Ok, where exactly would blu-ray be right now without PS3? Not even at 100,000 stand-alone sales (and that 100,000 is fairly generous, rumors actually point to a lower figure). PS3 is what drives blu-ray, so much so that many people even have gone so far as to state that blu-ray didn't even launch 'in full' until PS3 did. The 'earlier' launch was just to prevent HD DVD group from gaining a bigger 'beach head' since it's very doubtful early adopters would have waited over 6 months when HD movies were already available on another format.

Yes, the PS3 was need to get Blu Ray off the ground but it will be the Standalone players that will win over the general public. The BDA needs to get their act together with the standalones.

In my case I can't use the PS3 in my setup and have to wait for a Standalone player which has been very frustrating for me.


why can't you use a ps3 in your setup?? too good for a videogame system? lol I think many reviewers and publications agree ps3 is the best performing bluray player out right now.

In my case I can't use the PS3 in my setup and have to wait for a Standalone player which has been very frustrating for me.

Why is that? Is it because the PS3 uses Bluetooth for it's remote?

His receiver/preamp doesn't do PCM over HDMI, so he needs analog outs.

better to upgrade the reciever then pay 1000+ for a bluray standalone.

His receiver/preamp doesn't do PCM over HDMI, so he needs analog outs.

This is why I would never pay so much for one piece of electronic equipment, it's obsolete in a couple of years anyway. My $300 Panasonic receiver is capable of more than his $7000 one. Who's fault is that?

Guy's, what I am bringing up has nothing to do with HD DVD, they have their own problems, so let's not turn this into a format war thread.

New player announcements with nothing to say about their specs helps no one. Having a prototype of a new player sitting behind glass with nothing to say about it's onboard features is useless.

The PS3 is great for for us who are tech minded and like to play around with their gear. The general public will not put up with that.

It is not about scratch. It's about leaving people with installed systems High and Dry.

Look at me for example. I'm running a Halcro SSP80 into a Theta Dreadnaught II. My Halcro has analog 7.1 inputs but does not support Multi channel LPCM over HDMI. Upgrade for MCLPCM is coming in March-April but Advanced Audio Decoding not in the near future. (PS3 Does not work for me!)

So, I'm supposed to dump my $7000 preamp because the BDA can't get their act together on Advanced Audio Decoding.

Don't think so, I just won't buy in until they have it.

And I tell you that I am far from being alone in this scenario.

So, its a little arrogant to state that if you have the scratch for a new player you have it for a new receiver.

It's not that simple.

Yes exactly. I have the PS3 and it doesn't work for me. I am not trading in my $3000 receiver just because the PS3 doesn't have analog outputs. I WILL by another Blu-Ray player but not until I see one that supports all we have discussed here. My receiver has analog 7.1 inputs as well and does everything i need it to do. LOL I am not trading in a $3000 THX certified receiver because my sub $1000 dollar Blu-Ray player failed to implement analog out.

On that note any chance Sony will ever have analog outputs? Possibly using the "mulit-out" plug?

Yes exactly. I have the PS3 and it doesn't work for me. I am not trading in my $3000 receiver just because the PS3 doesn't have analog outputs. I WILL by another Blu-Ray player but not until I see one that supports all we have discussed here. My receiver has analog 7.1 inputs as well and does everything i need it to do. LOL I am not trading in a $3000 THX certified receiver because my sub $1000 dollar Blu-Ray player failed to implement analog out.

On that note any chance Sony will ever have analog outputs? Possibly using the "mulit-out" plug?

Or you can buy the $300 Panasonic which has more capabilities than your $3000 one. But then you couldn't brag about how much it cost. But somehow it's all Blu-ray's fault for not being backwards compatible for OLD, OBSOLETE technology. ;)

yes but your panasonic is cheaper because it doesn't pay George Lucas for royaltys. ;)

This is why I would never pay so much for one piece of electronic equipment, it's obsolete in a couple of years anyway. My $300 Panasonic receiver is capable of more than his $7000 one. Who's fault is that?

You are dead wrong here. My receiver is THX certified. No $700 receiver is going to have that.

I think all existing players have now been upgraded with BD-J compatibility

No, because the BD-J specifications are not even finalized yet. Planned to happen in May/June. After that manufaturers will have to implement it into their players and we'll have to see if it's possible at all for players already sold.


I assume you mean PiP not IME. Either way it's a BD-J disc! I have yet to see anything that actually shows that they used two seperate streams either, it's just a baseless accusation

Look at the data that is actually on the disc... before you do, maybe take off your blue BD glasses... :rolleyes:



As far as releases go, holding back Harry Potter in the US was not a decision based on the fact that the disc can not be ported to BD at this point. Warner had other reasons to hold it back. But yes, all HP movies should be out in November unless BD is not ready by then and Warner decides to hold them back for a day and date release on both formats. I sure hope they won't do that. If BD is not ready, release them on HD DVD.

Warner right now is holding back the Matrix trilogy. The discs are done and could be released. I hope they will make up their mind and release them soon on HD DVD and port them later to BD once the format is ready.

On the other hand, there are two other studios holding back HD DVD releases for other reasons. I know of two movies from these studios that are out on BD already.


So BD-J is something they need to get going as soon as possible. I hope Warner will not do this on all future IME releases. Instead they should just release it on HD DVD and later on BD. Personally I don't care about the format, but I want the movies as soon as possible.

My $230 Logitech 5.1 Surround is THX certified:D

You better hope you're right. Releasing the Matrix/Harry Potter trilogy on HD-DVD exclusively, even if it's just for a few months, is going to do a LOT to sell a few Toshiba players.

If they release them in the fall, holidays they will be going up against Sipderman III and Pirates III, I think they get crushed by new titles no one has yet, as opposed to titles that while really popular, a lot of people already have on DVD.

Or you can buy the $300 Panasonic which has more capabilities than your $3000 one. But then you couldn't brag about how much it cost. But somehow it's all Blu-ray's fault for not being backwards compatible for OLD, OBSOLETE technology. ;)

You have to realize that such equipment is not always about features. It's about sound quality, that is why some of us pay over $10k or over $20k for our processors. What good is that ultra-cheap receiver with all the features if it sounds like crap?


You are dead wrong here. My receiver is THX certified. No $700 receiver is going to have that.

And what exactly does that THX certification do? Just because it's certified doesn't mean it performs any better. For the record, my processor is THX certified as well. I just don't see the benefit of it.

If they release them in the fall, holidays they will be going up against Sipderman III and Pirates III, I think they get crushed by new titles no one has yet, as opposed to titles that while really popular, a lot of people already have on DVD.

Given the fan base, I would not underestimate the power of Harry Potter, as we'll be coming off Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix in theaters starting in July, and the possibility that the Seventh Book will be released that same month or before the end of the year.

You are dead wrong here. My receiver is THX certified. No $700 receiver is going to have that.


OOOOOOOOH! :eek:

:cool:

The lack of BD-J is completely embarrassing for Blu-ray.

But as far as hardware announcements, BD had plenty.

Panasonic announced a new player
Pioneer announced a new player
LG announced a new player
Samsung announced a new player
Sony announced TWO new players.

What more did you want for new player announcements?

all HD DVD did was have one company announce a couple of new players and say the chinese will make a few crappy ones. I don't know how that translates to "HD DVD won CES".

As far as the audio codecs being decoded in the players, the PS3 does it and the new receivers do it. Is it stupid to buy a $1200.00 player that may or may not be able to decode the audio codecs? My guess is that if you have the scratch to buy one of them you will get one of the new receivers anyway. if not, just get the PS3 and any HDMI receiver. Problem solved.

Please provide links to the Pioneer and Panasonic new player announcements.

LG released a hybrid player NOT a BD only player (HD DAVID crippled or not, it's still a hybrid).

Sony showed two prototype players with no release dates. You will not see these players anytime before September 30th....per my inside info.

Please provide links to the Pioneer and Panasonic new player announcements.

LG released a hybrid player NOT a BD only player (HD DAVID crippled or not, it's still a hybrid).

Sony showed two prototype players with no release dates. You will not see these players anytime before September 30th....per my inside info.

"Panasonic Corporation is using Sigma's SMP8634 media processor to power its new DMP BD10 Blu-ray Disc Player, a BD compatible product with a number of proprietary features such as Pixel Precision Progressive Processing for enhanced image quality. Panasonic is also offering the DMR BW200 and BW100, marketed as one of the world's first Blu-ray Disc (BD) recorders that can also play back BD-Video discs, both of which are also based on the SMP8634. The DMP BD10 is available now in US retail stores and the DMR BW200 and BW100 are available now in Japan."
http://storage.broadcastnewsroom.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=94102&afterinter=true

Someone on here said Pioneer announced a new player, but I guess they were still talking about the one they just launched.

However I forgot to mention the new Samsung player, the BD-P1200. :)

If BDA had simply swallowed their pride and listened to their own working group's recommendation instead of ignoring them and making an executive decision based on greed, then BD would already have the exact same titles released from the format nuetral studios as HD-DVD has. I'll say it again. Don't blame Warner. Sony and BDA are making things difficult for them.

"Panasonic Corporation is using Sigma's SMP8634 media processor to power its new DMP BD10 Blu-ray Disc Player, a BD compatible product with a number of proprietary features such as Pixel Precision Progressive Processing for enhanced image quality. Panasonic is also offering the DMR BW200 and BW100, marketed as one of the world's first Blu-ray Disc (BD) recorders that can also play back BD-Video discs, both of which are also based on the SMP8634. The DMP BD10 is available now in US retail stores and the DMR BW200 and BW100 are available now in Japan."
http://storage.broadcastnewsroom.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=94102&afterinter=true

Someone on here said Pioneer announced a new player, but I guess they were still talking about the one they just launched.

However I forgot to mention the new Samsung player, the BD-P1200. :)

The BD10 is Pansonics only BD player in the US. It came out in November 2006. How is that a new announcement? The BW100/BW200 were released in Japan last Fall. How is that a new announcement? Pioneer said nothing about a new player as they focused more on their new plasmas that are coming out this Summer.

So just for clarity, how many new players were actually announce (meaning tagged with a date) for this year? I only count one and that is the Samsung BD-P1200....which I will be taking a very close look at.

If BDA had simply swallowed their pride and listened to their own working group's recommendation instead of ignoring them and making an executive decision based on greed, then BD would already have the exact same titles released from the format nuetral studios as HD-DVD has. I'll say it again. Don't blame Warner. Sony and BDA are making things difficult for them.

It the BDA as a whole....not just Sony.

where would hddvd with out 360??? Majority of hd dvd players in homes is 90k+ 360 players compared to 40k stand alones. like it or not, videogame systems has alot to do with the next gen movie formats.

Did you completly make up these numbers? :rolleyes:

If BDA had simply swallowed their pride and listened to their own working group's recommendation instead of ignoring them and making an executive decision based on greed, then BD would already have the exact same titles released from the format nuetral studios as HD-DVD has. I'll say it again. Don't blame Warner. Sony and BDA are making things difficult for them.


shouldn't it be other way around since bluray has more studio support and CE support. Since toshiba is on their own, basically they are the outsiders.

Did you completly make up these numbers? :rolleyes:

I don't usually repond to fools but why don't do some studying before you roll them ugly eyes.

http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4531&Itemid=2

why can't you use a ps3 in your setup?? too good for a videogame system? lol I think many reviewers and publications agree ps3 is the best performing bluray player out right now.

See Post #22

Your condescending response is not appreciated.

Thanks

Why is that? Is it because the PS3 uses Bluetooth for it's remote?

See Post #22

I don't usually repond to fools but why don't do some studying before you roll them ugly eyes.

http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4531&Itemid=2

And that says absouletly nothing about stand alone sales of HD players so wheres your 40k number coming from thin air? :rolleyes:

This is why I would never pay so much for one piece of electronic equipment, it's obsolete in a couple of years anyway. My $300 Panasonic receiver is capable of more than his $7000 one. Who's fault is that?

Hi Fettastic,

The Halcro is modular and upgrades are on the way. But many others don't have that flexability.

Why should people change their receiver/preamp when the decoders can be placed in the players.

Would that not also lend the greater adoption of Blu Ray if more people could take advantage of it their existing setups?

IIRC, Sharp also announced a new BD player.

Here's a brief mention of it:

"Sharp is also announcing the new Blu-ray Player which will retail for $1,199.99."
http://www.gadgetell.com/2007/01/ces-2007-sharp-press-conference/

And if the only announcements that count are the ones with release dates, than there will apparently only be about 20 HD DVD releases in 2007. :cool:

Hi Fettastic,

The Halcro is modular and upgrades are on the way. But many others don't have that flexability.

Why should people change their receiver/preamp when the decoders can be placed in the players.

Would that not also lend the greater adoption of Blu Ray if more people could take advantage of it their existing setups?

Sounds like your beef is with the slowness of Halcros upgrade.

I was a bit irritated I couldn't use the PS3 with my receiver so I bought a new one which completely opened up 7.1 to me. It's also kind of nice that I barely have to touch the receiver anymore because most of my components all funnel into the HDMI port. So I'm kind of glad I was pushed into it.

Or you can buy the $300 Panasonic which has more capabilities than your $3000 one. But then you couldn't brag about how much it cost. But somehow it's all Blu-ray's fault for not being backwards compatible for OLD, OBSOLETE technology. ;)

Guys stop turning this into a HD DVD vs Blu Ray thread. I could care less for that. Discuss what needs to be done to improve BD and to get more people on board.


I don't buy $300 receiver/preamps. Why? Because the sound like CRAP.

OLD and OBSOLETE, where do you get this? HDMI has been a floating target which the CE's have been struggling with for years.

Why do you think there have been so many compatability issues? Only now are we seeing any real standardization under 1.3.

And if the only announcements that count are the ones with release dates, than there will apparently only be about 20 HD DVD releases in 2007. :cool:Oh forgive me as I didn't give this info with my first post. I do not and will not join the frivolous battles between BD DVD and BD owners/prospects/fanboys...etc. So I could care less about your count of BD DVD titles. For the record I agree that until there is a date tagged to a product, it's worthless when it comes to counting it.
"Sharp is also announcing the new Blu-ray Player which will retail for $1,199.99."
http://www.gadgetell.com/2007/01/ces-2007-sharp-press-conference/
Sharp announced the same BD player last CES...didn't they??? Will it actually come out this year or will they wait and release a hybrid player like other manufacturers (including some on the BD exclusive side ;))

shouldn't it be other way around since bluray has more studio support and CE support. Since toshiba is on their own, basically they are the outsiders.You would think. However, Warner is one of Microsofts biggest supporters. Warner actually pushed Microsoft to develop VC1 for HD media. Warner prefers to use VC1, and Microsoft has developed advanced tools to help the studios with the production aspect as well as port the VC1 HD-DVD version easily to BD. I have been assuming that all future Warner THD will be encoded in VC1 for BD. The BD group also seems to be disorganized with the implementation of BD-J. Obviously what happened here is the BDA pushed an unfinished format out the door. Probably not a bad idea since it would have done more harm to BD than good by giving HD-DVD that much time in the marketplace unopposed. But what you get is an unfinished format (OK, HD-DVD was technically unfinished too but a lot further along than BD) and a group still trying to make changes as challenges reveal themselves.

I also have to agree with some here about the lack of audio decoding on the BD units. Even for those who believe the uncompressed PCM stream is superior to lossless Dolby (which I don't agree with, but that is another debate), it would seem to me that the hardware should at least support the option. Especially in the priceline that the standalone units are going at.

It the BDA as a whole....not just Sony.Valid correction. Thanks. :)

Sounds like your beef is with the slowness of Halcros upgrade.

I was a bit irritated I couldn't use the PS3 with my receiver so I bought a new one which completely opened up 7.1 to me. It's also kind of nice that I barely have to touch the receiver anymore because most of my components all funnel into the HDMI port. So I'm kind of glad I was pushed into it.

In a way yes. If Halcro had the upgrade I would not be dealing with this.

But, the thing is I think this is a mistake on the part of the BDA. There are plenty of people out there that do not have the luxury of doing the upgrade like we do, being for financial reasons or other. That's a large segment of the market that the BDA is overlooking.

I also have to agree with some here about the lack of audio decoding on the BD units. Even for those who believe the uncompressed PCM stream is superior to lossless Dolby (which I don't agree with, but that is another debate), it would seem to me that the hardware should at least support the option. Especially in the priceline that the standalone units are going at.

We are on the same track here. :D

In a way yes. If Halcro had the upgrade I would not be dealing with this.


Don't worry about it, just use the normal digital out until you can have multichannel PCM via HDMI. The analogue outputs of all currently available players (BD and HD DVD) are so bad, that you will get better quality using the normal digital out.

D-Nice, I don't know why you put so much emphasis on release dates since they are constantly pushed back anyway. The fact is that the hardware has been announced and it is coming, whenever that may be. Pretending like it doesn't exist because it doesn't have an easily movable date seems....well silly.

Don't worry about it, just use the normal digital out until you can have multichannel PCM via HDMI. The analogue outputs of all currently available players (BD and HD DVD) are so bad, that you will get better quality using the normal digital out.

How do you figure that?

Don't worry about it, just use the normal digital out until you can have multichannel PCM via HDMI. The analogue outputs of all currently available players (BD and HD DVD) are so bad, that you will get better quality using the normal digital out.Whoa... I'm not sure how you qualify that statement. If there are reports to this effect, please direct me to them. IMHO from my personal system, there is a noticable difference between lossless audio through analog over digital using spdif, lossless analog being superior.

Also of mention, I don't know about the BD players with analog, but the HD-DVD players with analog from Toshiba feature some pretty high end D/A converters.

D-Nice, I don't know why you put so much emphasis on release dates since they are constantly pushed back anyway. The fact is that the hardware has been announced and it is coming, whenever that may be. Pretending like it doesn't exist because it doesn't have an easily movable date seems....well silly.

So counting 2 prototype BD players from Sony with no hint of a release date should be counted in the tally of BD players this year????? And again, Sharp anounce the same BD player last year. Are you saying it should be counted as being release this year also? Should the Onyko HD DVD player be counted as a player being released this year as it was also anounced at CES, yet there was not even a prototype shown? What about the Chinese HD DVD players? HD DVD also announced a 51 Gig disc. Should that also be counted as coming this year?

Don't worry about it, just use the normal digital out until you can have multichannel PCM via HDMI. The analogue outputs of all currently available players (BD and HD DVD) are so bad, that you will get better quality using the normal digital out.

Hi Stephan,

I would be fine with that if I knew that the players will be upgraded with decoding of the audio but that's not the case. Except for maybe Panasonic.

Because, even when I get the upgrade to support MLPCM over HDMI if the players don't have the decoders I won't be able to play DTS MA on KOH for example.

How do you figure that?

He's of the mindset that if you don't have a system that uses $1000-10000 interconnect cables, it's a piece of crap :)

So counting 2 prototype BD players from Sony with no hint of a release date should be counted in the tally of BD players this year????? And again, Sharp anounce the same BD player last year. Are you saying it should be counted as being release this year also? Should the Onyko HD DVD player be counted as a player being released this year as it was also anounced at CES, yet there was not even a prototype shown? What about the Chinese HD DVD players? HD DVD also announced a 51 Gig disc. Should that also be counted as coming this year?

I forgot about the Onkyo.

But, whatever. The point is, there are TONS of BD players already on the market. There are plenty more coming. I don't know why you think it's my responsibility to tie down release dates for them, or why you even think it's so important. You're obsessing over minutea IMO.

why is every body upset with the new that Warner won't release Matrix in BR here? :rolleyes: if you don't have warner , you have disney( snowy white and mickey istead :D

Ok i get out of here ;)

If Warner is going TotalHD by the end of the year, then we will certainly be getting all those titles at the same time, plus they said all titles will be released on all formats at the same time. Let's wait for a true Warner's announcement.

The Matrix isn't going to be released in BD? Why wouldn't it. I wouldn't let a "French HD-DVD Release List" have any bearing on what Warner has planned for the US. I agree with dpags here. Let's just be patient.

I forgot about the Onkyo.

But, whatever. The point is, there are TONS of BD players already on the market. There are plenty more coming. I don't know why you think it's my responsibility to tie down release dates for them, or why you even think it's so important. You're obsessing over minutea IMO.

Fettastic,

My issue is not the amount of players, as there are plenty. But what is going to be in them. THe first Gen players are missing some key features and I want to know that they be there in the 2nd Gens.

How do you figure that?

By trying it. :)




Whoa... I'm not sure how you qualify that statement. If there are reports to this effect, please direct me to them. IMHO from my personal system, there is a noticable difference between lossless audio through analog over digital using spdif, lossless analog being superior.

Also of mention, I don't know about the BD players with analog, but the HD-DVD players with analog from Toshiba feature some pretty high end D/A converters.


This has been discussed in the $20k+ forum a while ago and we had a discussion about it in the Meridian forum. I'm not alone with this.

I agree that for the cheaper receivers it may very well be that going the analogue route may sound better, but that's because the decoding/processing and DA-conversion in those is so poor in the first place. These solutions don't provide the quality I'm looking for, Dennis has confirmed this too further above.
In general the cheap receivers don't perform too well with regular DD or dts either.

I do have a Toshiba HD DVD player as well, and using the analogue outs (TrueHD) into a IA45 of a Meridian 861 sounds worse than using the regular digital output with 1.5mbps dts. Same can be said for the Halcro and Theta.

Denon, Onkyo, Yamaha and Panasonic are nowhere near close the quality of the above mentioned procesors, even with analogue multichannel or HDMI.



I would be fine with that if I knew that the players will be upgraded with decoding of the audio but that's not the case. Except for maybe Panasonic.

Because, even when I get the upgrade to support MLPCM over HDMI if the players don't have the decoders I won't be able to play DTS MA on KOH for example.


Dennis, I think the only one that can be upgraded for sure is the PS3 at this point. It already does it, except for dts-MA. Even TrueHD works right now. It's decoding it and outputs it as multichannel PCM via HDMI.

From what I have been told, Panasonic is still trying to figure out if they can upgrade the player to dts-MA.

My personal choice at this point would be either the Panasonic or the PS3. In my opinion, the PS3 is a little better when it comes to quality.

But in the end, I think all current players will be temporary anyway. I can't wait until we get players from manufacturers like Meridian, Halcro, Classé and so on.

Or you can buy the $300 Panasonic which has more capabilities than your $3000 one. But then you couldn't brag about how much it cost. But somehow it's all Blu-ray's fault for not being backwards compatible for OLD, OBSOLETE technology. ;)

lol well we are off subject so I will end this rant. I certainly don't want to brag. most of the people on this board have systems a hell of a lot nicer than mine. All I will say is that if I could buy an amp for $700 dollars that sounds as good as my Denon then I would be all over it. I bought what I bought because it sounds fantastic to me. Most high end DVD, Laser Disk players etc. have analog out with really good D/A converters. This is a standard among high end players. $1200 dollars in my opinion should include this feature.

All amps are analog and at some point require an analog signal. My receiver gives me the ability to utilize a direct analog input. I simply want the ability to use that feature. Throwing away a really good sounding amp because a highend BD player doesn't include analog outputs seems a bit rediculous. But this is my opinion and others are certainly allowed to have their own. The original topic was about BD not including a feature that could possibly persuade people to go to the HD-DVD side. I personally think this is another feature that HD-DVD players have choosen to implement that Blu-Ray has not and could force some people to switch sides. Not me though... Not unless Disney jumps ship!

All amps are analog and at some point require an analog signal.

Careful here... while it is true that you can build a true analogue chain after the first D/A conversion, alot of equipment actually does the signal processing in the digital domain. So when you feed analogue in the first place, it may be converted to digital in the processor/receiver, then processed (for sound modes, crossovers, ...) and then back to analogue again before it is amplified and hits your speakers. That way you have three conversions going on. If you feed digital to a processor in the first place, no conversion is required for eventual digital processing. So in the end only one conversion is done before the signal goes to the amp (if you have anlogue amps).

This has been discussed in the $20k+ forum a while ago and we had a discussion about it in the Meridian forum. I'm not alone with this.

I agree that for the cheaper receivers it may very well be that going the analogue route may sound better, but that's because the decoding/processing and DA-conversion in those is so poor in the first place. These solutions don't provide the quality I'm looking for, Dennis has confirmed this too further above.
In general the cheap receivers don't perform too well with regular DD or dts either.

I do have a Toshiba HD DVD player as well, and using the analogue outs (TrueHD) into a IA45 of a Meridian 861 sounds worse than using the regular digital output with 1.5mbps dts. Same can be said for the Halcro and Theta.

Denon, Onkyo, Yamaha and Panasonic are nowhere near close the quality of the above mentioned procesors, even with analogue multichannel or HDMI.
Understood. I can see where you are coming from now and cannot disagree as I do not have a point of reference in that price range. You should probably qualify the statement next time with this additional information and remember that your HT system of your calibre is in the minority, even here at AVS.

I forgot about the Onkyo.

But, whatever. The point is, there are TONS of BD players already on the market. There are plenty more coming. Uh humm, yeahhhh riiiiight
I don't know why you think it's my responsibility to tie down release dates for them, or why you even think it's so important. You're obsessing over minutea IMO. You are the one cheerleading something that does not exist. You don't even know when it's coming. It's just coming, eh? Cults are created this way. Ha!

Uh humm, yeahhhh riiiiight
Are you saying there AREN'T any BD players and none are coming? I don't understand your comment.
You are the one cheerleading something that does not exist. You don't even know when it's coming. It's just coming, eh? Cults are created this way. Ha!

I was responding to this:

This is exactly what I was afraid of when the BDA had no new announcements it terms of Hardware at CES.

You wanted to make it a debate between you and I about release dates for specific players. Why, I don't know.

Are you saying there AREN'T any BD players and none are coming? I don't understand your comment.


I was responding to this:



You wanted to make it a debate between you and I about release dates for specific players. Why, I don't know.

To clarify, what I meant by hardware announcements was functionality (BDJ,Advanced audio decoding,BD Live) not more players. I could care less about more player announcements if they are still missing the features.

All we got were upcoming title lists when I was looking for answers on the above.

Are you saying there AREN'T any BD players and none are coming? I don't understand your comment.If you payed attention to what I posted you would have clearly seen that I stated the only BD player on the horizon that has a FIRM release date is the Samsung BD-P1200. All others are vaporware.....and that goes for the HD DVD camp's announcements too.

To clarify, what I meant by hardware announcements was functionality (BDJ,Advanced audio decoding,BD Live) not more players. I could care less about more player announcements if they are still missing the features.

All we got were upcoming title lists when I was looking for answers on the above.

Since he has no data to answer your question, I'll do it. You will not see any new BD players with "real" BDJ, advance audio decoding, and BD-Live until CEDIA 2007. You will also see at least 3 new hybrid players.

If you payed attention to what I posted you would have clearly seen that I stated the only BD player on the horizon that has a FIRM release date is the Samsung BD-P1200. All others are vaporware.....and that goes for the HD DVD camp's announcements too.
Your response to me making the simple and crystal clear statement of "there are lots of BD players now and more are coming", was:

"Uh humm, yeahhhh riiiiight"

Maybe some sort of seisure?

So clearly any new BD players only exist in some sort of fantasy land and will never actually come to store shelves. :rolleyes:

Practically every BD player has had it's release date pushed back so I don't know why you want to carve them in stone tablets.

Since he has no data to answer your question, I'll do it. You will not see any new BD players with "real" BDJ, advance audio decoding, and BD-Live until CEDIA 2007. You will also see at least 3 new hybrid players.

Is that what the tea leaves told you? A link to the "data" you're touting would be helpful.

Is that what the tea leaves told you? tea leaves?
A link to the "data" you're touting would be helpful. Sure, if you are willing to pay the person's salary that it came from as they would be fired if I posted it ;)

tea leaves?
"Tasseography (also known as tasseomancy or tassology) is a divination or fortune-telling method that in western traditions interprets patterns in tea leaves."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_leaves
Sure, if you are willing to pay the person's salary that it came from as they would be fired if I posted it ;)

Well that's convenient. And of course this anonymous source is 100% guarenteed to be 100% accurate because.....you say so? :rolleyes:

where would hddvd with out 360??? Majority of hd dvd players in homes is 90k+ 360 players compared to 40k stand alones. like it or not, videogame systems has alot to do with the next gen movie formats.


Lol, great numbers, how they smell coming out of your rear? If you knew anything, you'd realize there are a lot more than 40k stand alone HD-DVD players that have been sold. There has been over 100k 360 add-ons sold and was at over 70,000 standalones about 3 months ago. I'd imagine there are at least 200 to 250 k dedicated HD-DVD players sold right now. As to Blu-Ray, there was a report not so long ago that the number of stand alones sold is well less than 100k units. The PS3 is the only thing keeping BluRay alive. It is a great player and thank goodness for all of us that enjoy BD that the PS3 was released.

Your response to me making the simple and crystal clear statement of "there are lots of BD players now and more are coming"Lots to me means > 10. Are their > 10 different BD players out there? Five or less should be classified as a "few".

So clearly any new BD players only exist in some sort of fantasy land and will never actually come to store shelves. :rolleyes:

Practically every BD player has had it's release date pushed back so I don't know why you want to carve them in stone tablets. Now....how does your comments corelate with your previous post:

"The lack of BD-J is completely embarrassing for Blu-ray.

But as far as hardware announcements, BD had plenty.

Panasonic announced a new player
Pioneer announced a new player
LG announced a new player
Samsung announced a new player
Sony announced TWO new players.

What more did you want for new player announcements?

all HD DVD did was have one company announce a couple of new players and say the chinese will make a few crappy ones. I don't know how that translates to "HD DVD won CES".

As far as the audio codecs being decoded in the players, the PS3 does it and the new receivers do it. Is it stupid to buy a $1200.00 player that may or may not be able to decode the audio codecs? My guess is that if you have the scratch to buy one of them you will get one of the new receivers anyway. if not, just get the PS3 and any HDMI receiver. Problem solved."

Well that's convenient. And of course this anonymous source is 100% guarenteed to be 100% accurate because.....you say so? :rolleyes: Nope, but we can have this conversation in September to see if what I posted was accurate:) In the mean time should we stick to your cheerleading? I'm open to ideas.

"Tasseography (also known as tasseomancy or tassology) is a divination or fortune-telling method that in western traditions interprets patterns in tea leaves."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_leaves
I'm sorry but my heritage and religion are allergic to BS. So I don't know anything about tea leaves.

Lots to me means > 10. Are their > 10 different BD players out there? Five or less should be classified as a "few".

Thanks, I'll call the Oxford English Dictionary and have them update their definition.

Now....how does your comments corelate with your previous post:

""
:confused: How do they NOT correlate?

I said that numerous players were announced at CES....then I said release dates aren't carved in stone. What about that confuses you so?

Nope, but we can have this conversation in September to see if what I posted was accurate:) In the mean time should we stick to your cheerleading? I'm open to ideas.

I'm format nuetral, I'm not cheerleading anything. I think everyone here can corroborate that. You seem....confused.

I'm sorry but my heritage and religion are allergic to BS. So I don't know anything about tea leaves.

And yet you make uncorroborated predictions about the future and treat them as fact because a friend of a friend of your boss' former roommate said something that sounded like something you wanted to hear. :rolleyes:

Given the fan base, I would not underestimate the power of Harry Potter, as we'll be coming off Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix in theaters starting in July, and the possibility that the Seventh Book will be released that same month or before the end of the year.

Sigh....that might be true. But no movie has been able to touch Spiderman or Pirates at the box office for a few years now, or in DVD sales.

What I am saying is looking at figures for Hi-def movies, NEW movies sell better than LIBRARY movies. It's just the way it is because most consumers have the library titles on DVD already.

Eventually they will replace these, but not quickly. New titles have much more appeal. Yeah, why is the Harry Potter movie being released in July? Cause they knew they wouldn't have a chance at any box office if they released in May.

Just sayin. You don't think Spiderman III is gonna break records? Pirates III may then break those records. And this is all speculation that they won't release those titles (Matrix and Harry Potter) at the same time on HD-DVD and Blu-ray. Consider Warner is also pushing Total HD, how do you know both of those won't be on Total HD?

A lot of people like the Matrix, but on box office and DVD sales, it's not even close to some of the mega hits. The original matrix only grossed a couple hundred million in box office, I can name 10 movies off the top of my head that outpaced it easily. But, it will be a big HD title no doubt because of the special affects value, I'm not saying it won't.

I'm format nuetral, I'm not cheerleading anything. I think everyone here can corroborate that. You seem....confused.

Fettastic, I know who you are and have been following your posts for well over 8 months. Last year you cheerleaded HD DVD the same as you are now doing BD as...in your words "the writings on the wall".. You were wrong then as you are now. If you were truly neutral, why do you spend so much time cheerleading instead of posting usable information?

And yet you make uncorroborated predictions about the future and treat them as fact because a friend of a friend of your boss' former roommate said something that sounded like something you wanted to hear. :rolleyes:

Don't do the friend of a friend thing. That's where false info comes. Again, I will be more than happy to entertain you after CEDIA 2007.

I find this troubling since BD seems to be more Software based. (While HD DVD is more Hardware based)

A lot of people like the Matrix, but on box office and DVD sales, it's not even close to some of the mega hits. The original matrix only grossed a couple hundred million in box office, I can name 10 movies off the top of my head that outpaced it easily. But, it will be a big HD title no doubt because of the special affects value, I'm not saying it won't.

And it didn't help that Matrix 2 and 3 sucked big time. The weird thing is, for such a crappy movie, Pirates 2 broke all sorts of DVD records.

Fettastic, I know who you are and have been following your posts for well over 8 months. Last year you cheerleaded HD DVD the same as you are now doing BD as...in your words "the writings on the wall".. You were wrong then as you are now. If you were truly neutral, why do you spend so much time cheerleading instead of posting usable information?

Usable information being "No BD-J until Cedia.......I just know that....somehow"?

Don't do the friend of a friend thing. That's where false info comes. Again, I will be more than happy to entertain you after CEDIA 2007.

Trust me, you're entertaining me right now. :D

And it didn't help that Matrix 2 and 3 sucked big time.
Definatly Disagree
The weird thing is, for such a crappy movie, Pirates 2 broke all sorts of DVD records.
Definatly Agree

And it didn't help that Matrix 2 and 3 sucked big time. The weird thing is, for such a crappy movie, Pirates 2 broke all sorts of DVD records.

The Kiddies tend to do that. I hate harry potter, but it had a bigger Box Office than LOTR, which makes no sense considering how excellent the LOTR movies were in almost everyway.

Some people say Pirates III will do worse, I heard some people say they don't like where it looks to be headed.

I didn't think Matrix II sucked, I liked it a lot, just a little long and too much thinking and confusion in the story line. I liked the other programs like the ghosts, and they had one of the best fight scenes ever IMO on the highway, that was ridiculous, imagine that in Hi-def full surround sound at home.

But Matrix III almost sucked from the get-go. Really no part of the movie was any good.

Fettastic, I know who you are and have been following your posts for well over 8 months. Last year you cheerleaded HD DVD the same as you are now doing BD as...in your words "the writings on the wall".. You were wrong then as you are now. If you were truly neutral, why do you spend so much time cheerleading instead of posting usable information?

The lack of BD-J is completely embarrassing for Blu-ray.

Yeah, I'm such a BD fanboi "cheerleader"!

You crack me up man! :D

Delete - posted in wrong thread

Oh no not another Directors Intent vs Eye candy debate.

shall we first wait for an official release date from warner french themselfs, instead of a list that is put at a french dvd site.

so many pages here, without any official word from warner.

i rather wait for an official release date from warner then believe the gossip.

the only official word i heard at CES was. that warner would release matrix etc in the USa on blu-ray and hd-dvd. that is official news that we cna trust.

Ok, where exactly would blu-ray be right now without PS3? Not even at 100,000 stand-alone sales (and that 100,000 is fairly generous, rumors actually point to a lower figure). PS3 is what drives blu-ray, so much so that many people even have gone so far as to state that blu-ray didn't even launch 'in full' until PS3 did. The 'earlier' launch was just to prevent HD DVD group from gaining a bigger 'beach head' since it's very doubtful early adopters would have waited over 6 months when HD movies were already available on another format.
39yo PS3 owner here and truthfully if it wasnt for the PS3 I wouldnt be HD yet so BD gained a customer in me because of my PS3 purchase...i wouldnt have been purchasing BD or HD DVD but I wanted a PS3 and now I am BD hooked so to say "WITHOUT THE PS3" is just ludicrous becaues there is a PS3 and it is having an effect on things...2+2=4 but If I dont have a 2 I cant get 4....you cant just remove things from the equation as you see fit

shall we first wait for an official release date from warner french themselfs, instead of a list that is put at a french dvd site.

so many pages here, without any official word from warner.

i rather wait for an official release date from warner then believe the gossip.

the only official word i heard at CES was. that warner would release matrix etc in the USa on blu-ray and hd-dvd. that is official news that we cna trust.

Yep, that pretty much sums it up, especially if they're serious about this TotalHD stuff.

And it didn't help that Matrix 2 and 3 sucked big time. The weird thing is, for such a crappy movie, Pirates 2 broke all sorts of DVD records.I'll agree here in the respect that "The Matrix" had such a great idea and story behind it. While 2 and 3 seemed to just introduce ideas for the sake of moving the story along and really destroyed the original idea behind the Matrix and it's creation.

I will say however, that 2 and 3 did introduce some of the most amazing special effects in the business and contain a lot of action. Plot and storyline aside, they are still excellent titles to own in HD.

Plot and storyline aside, they are still excellent titles to own in HD.

Spoken like a true Blu-ray disciple. ;)

I have yet to see anything that actually shows that they used two seperate streams either, it's just a baseless accusation.Really? Which do you think is more likely?

1. Lionsgate magically made PiP work on machines that don't support PiP at the application level (no current Blu-ray player supports PiP through BDMV or BD-J, not even the PS3; no current Blu-ray player is Profile 1.1 compliant)

2. Lionsgate used a BD50 to hold two video streams, one of the movie and one of the movie with a commentary window overlay, and used BD-J to handle the selection of the secondary stream vs. the primary stream (and messing up the ability to revert to the primary stream once the secondary stream was selected)

That even the most ardent BDA advocate (Talkstr8) has already copped to #2 and that no Blu-ray CE has said word one about future PiP/Profile 1.1 compliance support for existing devices shouldn't influence your selection. :)

No, because the BD-J specifications are not even finalized yet. Planned to happen in May/June. After that manufaturers will have to implement it into their players and we'll have to see if it's possible at all for players already sold.The June 1, 2007* date is for mandatory support of Profile 1.1 for new Blu-ray models (non-1.1 models that are in the channel prior to June 1, 2007 can still be manufactured and sold, by the way). Yes, there will be BD-J stack tweaks to follow, but the BD-J spec is in stone...there just aren't any released devices using all the calls. It's the Profile 1.1 feature set that was pushed off to allow CEs some breathing room.

* As has been alluded to by a sage of the air, the last BDA meeting in Japan didn't mention this date at all, despite reviewing all other JTC milestones that impact the books (e.g., DL BD-R/RE conformance), leaving some to wonder if the date was going to get quietly bumped (the fact that Profile 1.1 becomes mandatory at a certain date is not public knowledge, so the BDA could easily slip the date without much criticism from the public, if the CEs demanded it).

Careful here... while it is true that you can build a true analogue chain after the first D/A conversion, alot of equipment actually does the signal processing in the digital domain. So when you feed analogue in the first place, it may be converted to digital in the processor/receiver, then processed (for sound modes, crossovers, ...) and then back to analogue again before it is amplified and hits your speakers. That way you have three conversions going on. If you feed digital to a processor in the first place, no conversion is required for eventual digital processing. So in the end only one conversion is done before the signal goes to the amp (if you have anlogue amps).

Thank you for correcting me. I did not realize that my amp could do further digital processing on the analog input side of things. Even more reason to keep the old heap!

I like my old Caddy! She still runs good!

Sharp announced the same BD player last CES...didn't they??? Will it actually come out this year or will they wait and release a hybrid player like other manufacturers (including some on the BD exclusive side ;))
It will be released in May in Germany at least, http://www.sharp.de/presse/pressedetails.php?pid=1140&groupid=0&presseart=1 (just in time to not be profile 1.1 I guess ;) )

I cannot BELIEVE Harry Potter and Batman Begins are slated as not being released on B-R... hopefully this is not set in stone.

This is why I would never pay so much for one piece of electronic equipment, it's obsolete in a couple of years anyway. My $300 Panasonic receiver is capable of more than his $7000 one. Who's fault is that?

C'mon dude. You know if you had 3 grand to blow on some gear you would pick up that preamp and receiver.

I know I would. :)

C'mon dude. You know if you had 3 grand to blow on some gear you would pick up that preamp and receiver.

I know I would. :)

You know it! Someday I hope to post in the 20000+ thread!

C'mon dude. You know if you had 3 grand to blow on some gear you would pick up that preamp and receiver.

I know I would. :)

That's what I was think but I'm glad you said it instead of me. :D

I assume you mean PiP not IME. Either way it's a BD-J disc! I have yet to see anything that actually shows that they used two seperate streams either, it's just a baseless accusation

Search the Insider's thread where it is discussed in detail.

Yeah, I'm such a BD fanboi "cheerleader"!

You crack me up man! :D


Keep on cheering dude, you are an icon on many forums and don't let these buggers bother you. AS for the Warner truehd combo discs, will they be BD50 capable or simply HD-DVD30 on one side and BD25 on the other max?

Search the Insider's thread where it is discussed in detail.

Thanks for that!

We know that Warner titles that have been released on HD DVD with an IME (in-movie experience) track are on hold until the equivalent interactivity on BD is operational. Officially this would be sorted out in the second half of this year.

In the meantime, French site dvdrama.com has gained access to the hidef slate Warner has for 2007 in France. Of course, there are lots of great titles on Blu-ray coming up, but what is worrying is that the IME drought extends until November.

Indeed, the Matrix films (to be released June-August) will be released on HD DVD with an IME track, but won't be released at all on Blu-ray. Not only that, but the Harry Potter films will reportedly be released in November on HD DVD, though not on Blu-ray.

This affects also new releases such as Zack Snyder/Frank Miller's 300.

Short message: Sun, get your ass moving and give us full BD-J! Wow - 4 whole pages so far and not one peep out of talksr8t - MOST unusual :)

No comment?

Personally, I think it's obvious that BD-Video compliance is going to happen later than June, at this point. It doesn't seem that they have gotten it together yet.

What DOES irritate one a bit is how many HD DVD titles have probably already been delayed because of people accusing Warner of favouring HD DVD.

I say "Warner - please just give us the HD DVDs now and worry about the Bluray discs when THEY are ready".

I give up. I've spent ages looking at that Insiders thread and all I can see from Paidgeek is:

There are already some full Java titles from Fox, Lion's Gate and soon Disney.

Which doesn't support the claims made here

I give up. I've spent ages looking at that Insiders thread and all I can see from Paidgeek is:



Which doesn't support the claims made here
Correct - there aren't any.

There were only some claims by talksr8t that "PiP is already fully supported" by Bluray players, which turned out to be false, as the "PiP" he was highlighting was actually a pre-rendered alternate video stream with a window in it, not real BD-Video java.

Coming back to the points of the first page of this thread, like it or not, PS3 can already decode TrueHD. Not only that, it feeds it digitally to HDMI receivers with audio in. As for DTS HDMA, we'll have to wait for another upgrade. It's not like the Cell can't handle it. So far the most extensive decoding the Cell had to do was with SACDs!

As for the rest of the players, Panasonic and Sony have set a date (March/April) for TrueHD/HDMA updates. I'm not sure about Pioneer nor Samsung.

PiP and BD-Live are features that no BD players, with the exception of the PS3, can do at the moment. paidgeek said in another forum, PiP's authoring tools are being worked on and content will be available later this year (second half, I believe he said).

As far as people complaining that their current rig does not have HDMI inputs that can take audio and passthrough 1080p, well it was the same thing when Dolby Digital and DTS were introduced to the laserdisc market. It may be painful to accept it, but that's planned obsolences for you. But you don't have to upgrade now. Maybe 2008, just in time for the Beijing Olympics.

Seriously, (Seriously? Grey's Anatomy joke) if you're looking to get into BD and don't want to spend a lot of money on first gen player that can't do PiP or BD-Live or advance audio decoding AND/OR that you want to be format neutral, get the PS3. Doesn't matter which flavor. It's a good bang for the money, it's fast and it plays games too.


fuad

PiP and BD-Live are features that no BD players, with the exception of the PS3, can do at the moment. paidgeek said in another forum, PiP's authoring tools are being worked on and content will be available later this year (second half, I believe he said).That would explain the delay - if the authoring tools won't be available till the second half then there's little chance that Warner will be able to release those titles at the same time as the HD DVD version - unless some "entity" pressures Warner into withholding their HD DVD releases...

Do you have a link to his statement on this?

Which doesn't support the claims made hereCorrect - there aren't any.

There are plenty of claims that those titles aren't full BD-J!

There are plenty of claims that those titles aren't full BD-J!
Correct.

It's one thing for someone to put some basic BDJ on a disc - heck, it could be used to do basic menus etc.

But it's quite another to claim that there are any advanced IME-typ BD-Video applications in existence on any shipping BD titles.

They just don't seem to be there.

However, the part that gets me really *mad* :) is that the *continued* failure of Bluray to deliver on these advanced BDJ tools is now affecting the abilities of HD DVD owners to get new releases. Grrr!!

Enough is enough... Why should studios like Warner have to hold back HD DVD releases to wait until Bluray is ready?

Rdjam, you're contradicting yourself! You say there aren't any but then agree with me when I say there are! What one is it?

I asked for evidence and after looking in the insiders thread all I could find was a post from PaidGeek saying there are plenty of "Full BD-J" titles.

I don't know what you consider advanced but aren't the games on the fox discs "advanced"?

That even the most ardent BDA advocate (Talkstr8) has already copped to #2 and that no Blu-ray CE has said word one about future PiP/Profile 1.1 compliance support for existing devices shouldn't influence your selection. :)

The June 1, 2007* date is for mandatory support of Profile 1.1 for new Blu-ray models (non-1.1 models that are in the channel prior to June 1, 2007 can still be manufactured and sold, by the way). Yes, there will be BD-J stack tweaks to follow, but the BD-J spec is in stone...there just aren't any released devices using all the calls. It's the Profile 1.1 feature set that was pushed off to allow CEs some breathing room.

* As has been alluded to by a sage of the air, the last BDA meeting in Japan didn't mention this date at all, despite reviewing all other JTC milestones that impact the books (e.g., DL BD-R/RE conformance), leaving some to wonder if the date was going to get quietly bumped (the fact that Profile 1.1 becomes mandatory at a certain date is not public knowledge, so the BDA could easily slip the date without much criticism from the public, if the CEs demanded it).Hi Alex,

I think that this is a very big issue. If the BD-J advanced implementations are ready yet and there is more trouble and delays in the Bluray camp that is now affecting HD DVD releases I think it's something I'd like to know more about.

Someone here has hinted that the authoring tools won't be available to studios till the second half of this year - do you know if there's any truth to that?

Rdjam, you're contradicting yourself! You say there aren't any but then agree with me when I say there are! What one is it?

I asked for evidence and after looking in the insiders thread all I could find was a post from PaidGeek saying there are plenty of "Full BD-J" titles.

I don't know what you consider advanced but aren't the games on the fox discs "advanced"?
Hi Camaj - sorry, I didn't realize we we disagreeing at all since you said "There are plenty of claims that those titles aren't full BD-J! "

I think we are in agreement that there are no advanced BD-J titles - I count these as being something like IME - true interactive, in-movie wizardry, such as real PiP, etc.

If a menu is designed in basic BDJ, or a couple "cutesy" Java games are present on the disc, then that doesn't qualify as far as I can see.

Wow - almost six pages and STILL no sign of talkstr8t.

One would have thought that Sun/Java types would have a LOT to say in defense here. Has head office told someone not to touch this one with a ten-foot-pole, perhaps?

Hi Camaj - sorry, I didn't realize we we disagreeing at all since you said "There are plenty of claims that those titles aren't full BD-J! "

I did say that, and it's true.

I think we are in agreement that there are no advanced BD-J titles

We're not, I'm saying there are, at least PaidGeek says there are. I was told to check the insiders thread and his words were "Full BD-J"

rdjam,

I have no insite on the state of BD-J authoring tools, other than I hope they're beyond Notepad as an IDE. I would contend that the "delay" of IME-like Blu-ray discs has more to do with testing against real world hardware (which is still on the drawing board for some CEs) than with the lack elegant authoring toolsets. Java is Java...they can code by hand.

camaj,

Confusion abounds. Let me 'splain. No, there is too much. Let me sum up...

Lionsgate used a bit of trickery in creating "PiP" on The Descent by leveraging two complete video streams and using BD-J to switch from primary to secondary. The "PiP" stream (which can only be selected from the menu, as it's not true PiP) is identical to the movie stream, just with the PiP window burned into it. On the plus side, this solution works on any Blu-ray player (even the Samsung and the Philips, neither of which have a second video decoder onboard), as you're just switching the stream, not overlaying a PiP stream on top of the primary stream (which requires not only two video decoders, but the firmware to take advantage of this). On the downside, a lot of people fell for the ruse, thinking their/all Blu-ray players supported PiP, which they do not...yet (for some players that *do* have secondary video decoder hardware on board, such as the Pioneer and the Sony, PiP is in theory possible with a firmware upgrade, but CEs are loathe to release any info on what the future holds for owners).

Some have argued that as long as the viewer can't tell the difference, it doesn't matter. But you eat up twice the disc space and halve the bandwidth using this technique, so it's not viable for most films, even on a BD50.

Outside of this little broohaha, there was a secondary (non-related) issue of the Sony and the Pioneer not being able to play this title, owing to issues with the Esmertec BD-J stack on those units not getting enough love and attention during compliance testing. Originally, some tried to position this as a Lionsgate authoring issue, but both Sony and (eventually) Pioneer noted that there were BD-J compatibility issues with their units. Sony has fixed the issue; the Pioneer fix is forthcoming (if it hasn't already dropped).

As to "full" BD-J, no titles are currently pressing the bounds of what BD-J can do: it's all menus and games right now. When a *real* PiP tilte comes along that uses BD-J to handle the overlay/positioning, that would at least bring Blu-ray on par with what HDi is currently delivering on all HD DVD hardware. That doesn't mean BD-J isn't "full," just that it's being limited to easy stuff at the moment. Both HDi and BD-J have to prove themselves on network interactivity: this has already been demo'd on shipping HD DVD hardware; BD-Live hardware still is an unknown, as it's an optional profile and wasn't mentioned at CES (or at the last BDA meeting).

Thank you Alex!

So if I summarise this, it would seems likely that the advanced BDJ titles are possibly getting delayed while they try to test them on hardware that is not yet finalised or shipping (and in some cases not yet built)?

Is that a fairly decent summary?

Sun/Java types would have a LOT to say in defense here.

As a sysadmin for the majority of my career I have nothing but bad things to say about Java. I've had more than my fair share of horrific run-ins with it. I'm not ripping on BD but rather their decision to include Java as part of the specs.

Thanks Alex, but I was aware of the claims, I just wanted to know what evidence existed to support them. Has anyone officially confirmed that PiP will only work with two decoders? Surely a powerful decoder can decode two streams?

Anyway I really don't think it matters much. Was the PQ compromised as a result? Reviews don't seem to think so. If we were talking Fifth Element PQ then it wouldn't be worth it but it seems Lionsgate can have their cake and eat it when it comes to PiP

Either way, I hope the BDA can sort it out so everyone is happy. Or at least people can find something even more pointless to complain about

This issue is now roaring in numerous threads and still no word from talkstr8t at Sun... Is the hope that maybe the issue will just go away then?

The poll on the matter shows that most Bluray owners would like to have these releases now, too. Even if that means no BD-Video interactive for the time being...

So if Warner is holding HD-DVD releases until the BD version is ready, think they are just going to make it their THD disk when all is ready? After all, that is their goal, right (to put it all on THD)?

The Matrix was promised for last year. Users of Both formats are anxiously waiting for it. I think that holding it back for any technicality, whether BDJ (as it appears) or for THD, would not be supported by HD/BD owners.

So do you think that putting the Matrix out only on THD would deter people from buying it? Sure it will suck to have to wait for it, but if that is the only format for it, it would promote their THD in a huge way.

C'mon dude. You know if you had 3 grand to blow on some gear you would pick up that preamp and receiver.

I know I would. :)

If I had 3 grand to blow, I'd be knee-deep in hookers! ;)

If I had 3 grand to blow, I'd be knee-deep in hookers! ;)

LMAO

Thanks Alex, but I was aware of the claims, I just wanted to know what evidence existed to support them. Has anyone officially confirmed that PiP will only work with two decoders? Surely a powerful decoder can decode two streams?

Anyway I really don't think it matters much. Was the PQ compromised as a result? Reviews don't seem to think so. If we were talking Fifth Element PQ then it wouldn't be worth it but it seems Lionsgate can have their cake and eat it when it comes to PiP

Either way, I hope the BDA can sort it out so everyone is happy. Or at least people can find something even more pointless to complain about

My impression was that the PQ on the PiP stream was degraded, and I thought that before I even knew it was encoded twice.

I see the Waner lists says (IME HDDVD) only. Is the Matrix coming out the same out with out the IME on bluray or is HD getting exclusives on it like batman and chocolate factory?

I see the Waner lists says (IME HDDVD) only. Is the Matrix coming out the same out with out the IME on bluray or is HD getting exclusives on it like batman and chocolate factory?
They mean its only coming on HD DVD, but it has IME also. If it were on both formats they would list Bluray also, as the other entries have.

This highlights the difficulties they are having getting BDJ/IME together on BD releases. Looks like many BD owners here would rather see BD listed for those titles also, even if it doesn't have IME. After all, it's the movies we all want, right?

Has talkstr8t (God forbid!) been in an accident or something?

This thread's been going for almost 4 days now and despite the questions, he's nowhere in sight? Just not like him to stay away from a Java discussion - particularly one this serious...

Has talkstr8t (God forbid!) been in an accident or something.
I seriously hope you meant the "god forbid" and it wasn't some sort of sick joke. With you, we never know how low you'll go, so you'll have to forgive me for assuming the worst...

This thread's been going for almost 4 days now and despite the questions, he's nowhere in sight? Just not like him to stay away from a Java discussion - particularly one this serious...
First, it's only serious to you and the few other die hard HD DVDers that remain. That being said, instead of posting "where is talk" in the 2+ threads that you have going on this, why don't you PM him and point him to the thread.

See if he's posted recently. You know, there is some sort of conference going on right now... ;)

the more I think about it the more I am hinking it is the THD. yes many have IME, but they are also longer movies. I am thinking Warner decided to wait fro 50/30 disks for them. Excellent way to push the THD disk and charge a bit more.

If Sony is the only one doing 50 now then Warner could be waiting for CINRAM to get that aspect ready so that they can combine it with an HD DVD 30

I seriously hope you meant the "god forbid" and it wasn't some sort of sick joke. With you, we never know how low you'll go, so you'll have to forgive me for assuming the worst...


He's a fanboy for a crumbling HD format backed by M$. I don't think you can go any lower than that. ;)

I seriously hope you meant the "god forbid" and it wasn't some sort of sick joke. With you, we never know how low you'll go, so you'll have to forgive me for assuming the worst...
It was an obvious reference to Sun Microsystem's total avoidance of the issue.

talk is usually the first person to jump into any discussion where he can defend BDJ, yet on this issue he has given all the threads a complete "swerve".

It seems obvious that participating in any discussion about this issue will only end up confirming it, since it now seems to be open knowledge.

So it looks like the PR strategists have ssaid "Don't do it!".

They are probably hoping the issue will just go quietly away if they pretend not to hear anyone. (picture image of BDJ people with their fingers in their ears, going "blah blah blah blah blah, etc)

And while you may think that insulting me or others who talk about this issue will win you points, you are mistaken.

This is a big issue, since it appears obvious that it is holding up new releases on BOTH formats. MAny, many Bluray users have chimed in on the threads and in the poll saying they would prefer to have the releases now, even without BDJ/BD-Video stuff.

Ok, then tell me which one (Sony, Samsung, Pioneer....etc) had anything to say about BDJ, Advanced Audio Decoding, and BD Live availability in their players.

I'll answer it for you, NONE.

No clear answer has been provided on these points. Panasonic has been the only one addressing it.

These are mandated feature sets by the BDA and the players don't have them.

Partial implementation of BDJ has happened. But authoring tools have not been made available to the Studios yet.

Sony's website shows the BDP-S1 as supporting BD-J

I dont care about extras, i never watch those boring interviews and don't really care how the special effects are done nor do I care how the director likes his coffee. HD dvd might have the extras down but their players were awful with plauged with audio sync issues and dynamic compression that isn't fixed.

Sony's website shows the BDP-S1 as supporting BD-J
All Bluray players support "BD-J", since that is just the name of the programming language. All Bluray players out right now only support the most basic "profile" of BD-J which is version 1.0 (also more recently called BD-Video 1.0). This is not capable of the advanced functions being discussed.

However, the "advanced BD-J" functions being discussed are BD-Video 1.1 (BD-J version 1.1) and BD-Live (BD-J 2.0).

See the link in my sig below (BD players Obsolete?) for more info.

I hope this explanation helps.

talkstr8t? comments?

For those who are fairly new to the forum, talkstr8t is a Bluray Java (BDJ) insider who is said to work for the company that is the source of the BDJ java system used on the Bluray format.

He is very active on the forum and almost always gets involved in any discussions about BDJ pretty much immediately, and fairly vociferously, particularly when anything unfavourable is said about it.

My continued posts are to make the point that said BDJ insider seems to be avoiding this issue like the plague...

For those who are fairly new to the forum, talkstr8t is a Bluray Java (BDJ) insider who is said to work for the company that is the source of the BDJ java system used on the Bluray format.

He is very active on the forum and almost always gets involved in any discussions about BDJ pretty much immediately, and fairly vociferously, particularly when anything unfavourable is said about it.

My continued posts are to make the point that said BDJ insider seems to be avoiding this issue like the plague...I was wondering where he has been too. Sometimes there are things the insiders are strictly forbidden to comment on. I am somewhat surprised with BD-J issues if there are any and what could be taking so long. An update from an insider could put the question to rest. Until an answer comes, I just don't like everyone jumping on Warner Bros about something that doesn't seem to be their fault.

My continued posts are to make the point that said BDJ insider seems to be avoiding this issue like the plague...Or it could be that he is just indisposed and hasn't gotten around to it. Inability to post does not automatically mean unwilling to post.

Or it could be that he is just indisposed and hasn't gotten around to it. Inability to post does not automatically mean unwilling to post.
While I'm sure that's what will be said, it seems unlikely. He is VERY active on these boards pretty much every day, and gets involved in BD Java discussions almost as soon as they arise.

I think it's becoming obvious that "policy" till now has probably been to stay away from the discussion and wait for it to die down. Personally, I don't think that would be wise as it implies they are worried about letting the cat out of the bag.

It was an obvious reference to Sun Microsystem's total avoidance of the issue.
Wasn't so obvious to me. Though I'll give you the benefit of the doubt since the written word does not always convey the expected intent.

talk is usually the first person to jump into any discussion where he can defend BDJ, yet on this issue he has given all the threads a complete "swerve".

It seems obvious that participating in any discussion about this issue will only end up confirming it, since it now seems to be open knowledge.
I guess you missed the part about the conference?

They are probably hoping the issue will just go quietly away if they pretend not to hear anyone. (picture image of BDJ people with their fingers in their ears, going "blah blah blah blah blah, etc)
Yeah, I'm sure that's it. "The interactivity that we promised our partners...guess what, screw it...we won't deliver it. That should make this go away." Good thought process rdjam. I'm sure that's what Sun is thinking.

And while you may think that insulting me or others who talk about this issue will win you points, you are mistaken.
Or, alternatively, it's old news (as you pointed out a few nights ago, you totally missed this 6 weeks ago) and nobody cares anymore?

And sorry, if you think I'm around here to "win points", it is you who are sorely mistaken. AVS is not a popularity contest, and if I got hit by a bus tomorrow nobody here would give a cr@p because none of you know me personally. And since you don't know me, I couldn't care less what you think and therefore I'm not here to "win points".

This is a big issue, since it appears obvious that it is holding up new releases on BOTH formats. MAny, many Bluray users have chimed in on the threads and in the poll saying they would prefer to have the releases now, even without BDJ/BD-Video stuff.
It's only a big issue to you because you are desperately trying to hold on to the notion that HD DVD can do something longer term that BD cannot. Plain and simple.

And if you want to continue to bump this thread under the guise of "Warner Bros. should release these titles now", then what the hell is talkstr8t, who you keep calling into this thread, going to do about bumping up the releases on WBs schedule via ditching interactivity since he works at Sun (and not WB)? Is this about BD interactivity or WBs release policies?

We all see what you're really trying to do is make an issue where it's either old news or very few people care. If this is about WB delaying your precious little HD DVDs so that they can have simultaneous releases with BD, then your issue is with WBs. Do you REALLY care about interactivity on BD? Are you buying a BD player soon? Do you really want these titles released sooner on BD, is that your angle? :rolleyes:

Do us all a favor, and go start a petition to WB to get your HD DVD titles released, and do it in your HD DVD forum where you have/had a similar thread there. We don't care rdjam.

Well said!

Do us all a favor, and go start a petition to WB to get your HD DVD titles released, and do it in your HD DVD forum where you have/had a similar thread there. We don't care rdjam. Easier done than said...

EDIT: ...Done
Warner has now received several hundred messages since Friday morning. Both from users on this forum, as well as from an email to the petition supporters.

BD users in the other thread and in the poll have indicated that they too would prefer to get these titles now, on Bluray also, and not wait till October or November for the interactive problems to get fixed and the Bluray versions to hit the street.

Is that not the sentiment in this thread also, folks?

Has talkstr8t (God forbid!) been in an accident or something?No, but at times work (and life outside of work) intrudes on one's ability to participate here. If you look at my recent posts you'll see I haven't posted since 1/29; indeed, I haven't logged in here due to much activity at work, parents in town, my daughter's babynaming tomorrow, etc. There are times where it's more important to spend quality time with family than stay up late on AVS Forum...
It seems obvious that participating in any discussion about this issue will only end up confirming it, since it now seems to be open knowledge. So it looks like the PR strategists have ssaid "Don't do it!".No "PR strategists" are, to my knowledge, aware of my activities here. I've certainly never been directed by any with regards to my posts.

I'm not sure what you want me to confirm or deny. Yes, it's true that no BD player manufacturers have announced BD-Video or BD-Live support for currently-available players. Therefore, if Warner is only willing to release these titles with PiP features, they can either wait until such support is available, or they can take the approach Lionsgate did and use encoding methods. This has nothing to do with tool availability, as evidenced by BD-J titles from Fox, Lionsgate, and Disney.

- Talk

As a sysadmin for the majority of my career I have nothing but bad things to say about Java. I've had more than my fair share of horrific run-ins with it. I'm not ripping on BD but rather their decision to include Java as part of the specs.Your experiences with Java on the desktop or server have little bearing on the role of Java in Blu-ray. Do you have a cellphone? If so it almost certainly is running Java. Has that been "horrific" for you?

Warner has now received several hundred messages since Friday morning. Both from users on this forum, as well as from an email to the petition supporters.

I am sure that Warner called an emergency board meeting so they could appease 200 whining HD DVD owners who at the moment can't get a new release unless it comes from overseas.

Please take your anti blu ray signature back to the HD DVD side.

Talkstr8t,

First off, thank you for participating in these forums. It is nice to have some "insiders" helping out with discussions.

Second, why do you even do it. I just read the slams at you (or your company) in the above posts and a post over on the HD DVD forum.

I would just like to apologize for some of the "others".

Sometimes I wonder. It was nice to "take a week off", though the backlog isn't fun to slog through. It'd be easier if RDjam found a new hobby, though.

Sometimes I wonder. It was nice to "take a week off", though the backlog isn't fun to slog through. It'd be easier if RDjam found a new hobby, though.
I hear ya. I tried to explain things to him multiple times, once in the HD DVD forum (because, you know, AVS has to have 3+ threads on this hugely important issue :) ). Knowing he wouldn't listen, I put a "Que Sera, Sera" at the end of my post, and then some other fanboy comes back and says I'm using some sort of logical fallacy & by putting that at the end of my post...my post is invalid!!! HAHAHAHAHA. These guys are so far gone, I do wonder why we even respond at times.

...my daughter's babynaming tomorrow, etc.Simhat Bat?

Congrats...tell little Javatina I said hi. I have another one due in September (slipped one past the goalie)...and with the wealth of naming/rhyming options for Blu-ray, I may just have to change sides here...little HDigore doesn't really roll off the tongue.

Yes, it's true that no BD player manufacturers have announced BD-Video or BD-Live support for currently-available players.BD-Video 1.1. That 1.1 is important, you know!

Warner has now received several hundred messages since Friday morning. Both from users on this forum, as well as from an email to the petition supporters.

BD users in the other thread and in the poll have indicated that they too would prefer to get these titles now, on Bluray also, and not wait till October or November for the interactive problems to get fixed and the Bluray versions to hit the street.

Is that not the sentiment in this thread also, folks?

They should also stop dumbing down the Blu-ray version of their releases by basing their discs on HDDVD's technological shortcomings. :)

They should also stop dumbing down the Blu-ray version of their releases by basing their discs on HDDVD's technological shortcomings. :)

What Fox and Sony's excuse for dumbing down their BluRay disc? Can't blame that on HD DVD!

What Fox and Sony's excuse for dumbing down their BluRay disc? Can't blame that on HD DVD!

Can you be more specific as to what you are referring to? Fox and Sony have been doing a great job on their releases. They have utilized the BD50 discs to their advantage.

Can you be more specific as to what you are referring to? Fox and Sony have been doing a great job on their releases. They have utilized the BD50 discs to their advantage.

No Interactivity? Dropped special features?

They should also stop dumbing down the Blu-ray version of their releases by basing their discs on HDDVD's technological shortcomings. :)

Good one. TwinTurboZX, you are the most objective poster on AVS. I thought I had seen all the spin I could imagine but that one takes the cake. What full-featured BD player do you own, you know the one that gives you BD-J 1.1 and BD-Live as well as advanced audio codecs ?

I'm not sure what you want me to confirm or deny. Yes, it's true that no BD player manufacturers have announced BD-Video or BD-Live support for currently-available players. Therefore, if Warner is only willing to release these titles with PiP features, they can either wait until such support is available, or they can take the approach Lionsgate did and use encoding methods. This has nothing to do with tool availability, as evidenced by BD-J titles from Fox, Lionsgate, and Disney.

- Talk
Thanks, Talk.

In he Insider's questions thread, paidgeek said that there are no tools available for BDJ, and implied that it would be hand coded for the time being. Is that correct?

We have some potentially good news here, everyone.

Warner has indicated that they have heard the appeals from everyone here. They have stated they will be sending a formal reply to our requests later today.

They also have apparently sent a reply to me at the HD Now base, but I have been travelling since Saturday and left my petition laptop at home, so I can't check the petition emails! Yargh - I'm dying of curiosity.

While I don't yet know what the response is I'd like to stress the following: Regardless of what their response is, it is highly commendable they have responded.

I am very happy that Warner has replied. This is a very responsible and caring approach by the studio and they should be commended for taking the time to let us know that they care about their customers.

Well done, Warner. And well done to all of you who took the time to send them a message. You have been heard!

We have some potentially good news here, everyone.

Warner has indicated that they have heard the appeals from everyone here. They have stated they will be sending a formal reply to our requests later today.

They also have apparently sent a reply to me at the HD Now base, but I have been travelling since Saturday and left my petition laptop at home, so I can't check the petition emails! Yargh - I'm dying of curiosity.

While I don't yet know what the response is I'd like to stress the following: Regardless of what their response is, it is highly commendable they have responded.

I am very happy that Warner has replied. This is a very responsible and caring approach by the studio and they should be commended for taking the time to let us know that they care about their customers.

Well done, Warner. And well done to all of you who took the time to send them a message. You have been heard!


Any expectation of when we'll get an update rdjam?

Any expectation of when we'll get an update rdjam?
It was indicated that it would be today, but I would guess there are no guarantees with something like this.

It sounds like they wanted to reply to everyone and I think there's a lot more letters than they originally may have estimated.

I really could kick myself for leaving my petition laptop at home while on this trip :)

Patience is best, now. The hard part is over and we know that they have heard us and are going to respond. At this point I think we can now chill out and let them come back to us.

I really do have huge respect for Warner for getting back to us on this.

As you can see, we're all waiting on pins and needles... :D ;)

No Interactivity? Dropped special features?

I buy BD discs for the movie. If I wanted interactivity, I'd go play a video game. Special features are not a deal breaker for me, the film comes first.

The fact is that WB's releases are based on the lowest common denominator, HDDVD. They are capped at 30GB wasting almost half of the BD50.

Good one. TwinTurboZX, you are the most objective poster on AVS. I thought I had seen all the spin I could imagine but that one takes the cake. What full-featured BD player do you own, you know the one that gives you BD-J 1.1 and BD-Live as well as advanced audio codecs ?

No spin man, just the facts. WB's releases are based on the lowest common denominator, HDDVD. They are capped at 30GB wasting almost half of the BD50 disc.

I buy BD discs for the movie. If I wanted interactivity, I'd go play a video game. Special features are not a deal breaker for me, the film comes first.

The fact is that WB's releases are based on the lowest common denominator, HDDVD. They are capped at 30GB wasting almost half of the BD50.


I totally agree TwinTurbo. If you recall any of the old, and big HiDef DVD News threads you would've known that the 'interactivity' advantage has been trumpeted rather loudly from both sides. The BD folk have said, in essence, that BD-J offers much more programming headroom than HDi. The HDDVD folk have said that HDi is much easier to program and thus more suited to the task at hand.

I could care less about most of 'touted' features of interactivity. I just want the movie.

No spin man, just the facts. WB's releases are based on the lowest common denominator, HDDVD. They are capped at 30GB wasting almost half of the BD50 disc.

With VC-1 and AVC codecs this isn't even an issue when it comes to both platforms. Stop spreading the FUD. Stick with stating the positives of BD, which it has.

If you like there is the old FUD about BD being limited by BD25. It's been shown that BD25 is fine when VC-1 and AVC is used.

Look at X3 it's on a BD25 using AVC. Everyone agrees that's a good looking and sounding disc.

So where does that play in your FUD of 30GB is the lowest common denominator.

Are you saying it would have looked better on a BD50? Well someone should go and tell Fox that they don't know what they are doing. :rolleyes:

I guess it would have looked better on a 30GB disc as well. :rolleyes:

Please stop spreading the FUD and confusing people.

In he Insider's questions thread, paidgeek said that there are no tools available for BDJ, and implied that it would be hand coded for the time being. Is that correct?I'm aware of tools developed by production companies for their own use (not generally available outside of those companies). I'm also aware of other third-party tools which are nearing commercial availability, and may be in beta use currently.

No spin man, just the facts. WB's releases are based on the lowest common denominator, HDDVD. They are capped at 30GB wasting almost half of the BD50 disc.
Hi Eurotrance,

I quick check on forum.bluray.com shows that this is the "argument" that the BD folks have decided is to be used to combat the Warner email campaign... They have agreed to "on message" on this here.

I buy BD discs for the movie. If I wanted interactivity, I'd go play a video game. Special features are not a deal breaker for me, the film comes first.

The fact is that WB's releases are based on the lowest common denominator, HDDVD. They are capped at 30GB wasting almost half of the BD50.

NAh, 50 Gb with MPEG2/PCM is not even enough for them to put extras, so on top of waiting for BD-J, advanced codecs capability and so on, now if we want a really next-gen format we need what, triple or quadruple layer ? Surely I'm not the only video enthusiast that wants to get more than just a movie for his $30...

Eurotrance, Warner MPEG2 is being used where it makes sense and advanced codecs are being used where they make sense. Any way you cut it BD has 2/3 more capacity available than HD DVD with dual layer, and the advantage only multiplies if more layers become desirable. Any other spin is FUD.

Eurotrance, Warner MPEG2 is being used where it makes sense and advanced codecs are being used where they make sense. Any way you cut it BD has 2/3 more capacity available than HD DVD with dual layer, and the advantage only multiplies if more layers become desirable. Any other spin is FUD.

I think you meant to say 1/3 more capacity. ;)

I think you meant to say 1/3 more capacity. ;)
Heh! ;)

I think you meant to say 1/3 more capacity. ;)

Heh! ;)



30 gb HD DVD = 3/3

50 gb Blu Ray = 5/3

5/3 - 3/3 = 2/3

My daughter is in 6th grade and she can do the math.

30 gb HD DVD = 3/3

50 gb Blu Ray = 5/3

5/3 - 3/3 = 2/3

My daughter is in 6th grade and she can do the math.
Oops, sorry - kept thinking of HD DVD 51 Gigs! ;)

Oops, sorry - kept thinking of HD DVD 51 Gigs! ;)

Vaporware :D

Eurotrance, Warner MPEG2 is being used where it makes sense and advanced codecs are being used where they make sense. Any way you cut it BD has 2/3 more capacity available than HD DVD with dual layer, and the advantage only multiplies if more layers become desirable. Any other spin is FUD.
Heh - as opposed to much better equipment available on the HD side, as in players that actually work properly, have the best upscaling of SD DVDs, can actually play CDs (and upsample them to 96/24 audio), have TrueHD 5.1 and DD+ 5.1 decoding, have the FULL Advanced Interactive compatibility (including PiP and Networking), have *working* Ethernet ports, cost half the price, etc etc etc

By the way, I'm sure you would want to make sure your last sentence is interpreted accurately - any more layers that become available to the Bluray standard will not be compatible with current BD players, because the physical range of focus on the current laser assemblies is too tight.

The BD player demoed at CES had had the lens assembly modified to allow it to see the additional layers. Contrast this to the HD DVD 51 gig triple layer, where the current players are fully able to focus at the additional layer, and the only issue at question is potentially noise/error correction.

BTW - since you are back, could you tell us a little bit about the BDJ problems that are causing the delays for studios like Warner?

Thanks!

rdjam,

Drop that argument. You are starting to sound desperate. Like you know about the specific "laser assemblies" on any of those machines. Or the fact that Blu Rays are too tight, or even if the HD DVD players will play a TL disc.

rdjam,

Drop that argument. You are starting to sound desperate. Like you know about the specific "laser assemblies" on any of those machines. Or the fact that Blu Rays are too tight, or even if the HD DVD players will play a TL disc.
Actually, I would say your reaction to the statement is more irrational/desperate.

It was openly admitted at the CES demo that they had to modify the lens assembly to get it to see the additional layers, so I would hardly have to do a "tear down" to verify this. ;)

Heh - as opposed to much better equipment available on the HD side, as in players that actually work properly,

My wife would strongly disagree with you...she refuses to watch our HD DVDs because the pain it is to get a picture on the A2...the HDMI implementation is terrible on that thing...we have to power the A2 off and on for the handshake to go through and get more than a black screen (doesn't bother me much, but the wife refuses to go through the trouble)...Other devices hooked (or have been hooked) to the the HDMI ports on the TV work flawlessly:

DirecTV HR10-250
DirecTV HR20-700
Denon DVD 3910
Sony BDP-S1

Actually, I would say your reaction to the statement is more irrational/desperate.

It was openly admitted at the CES demo that they had to modify the lens assembly to get it to see the additional layers, so I would hardly have to do a "tear down" to verify this. ;)

And your proof that the 51gb disc will work in your current HD DVD player?

And where is your proof that BD-J is holding up titles? PURE SPECULATION

What blu ray player do you own?

My wife would strongly disagree with you...she refuses to watch our HD DVDs because the pain it is to get a picture on the A2...the HDMI implementation is terrible on that thing...we have to power the A2 off and on for the handshake to go through and get more than a black screen (doesn't bother me much, but the wife refuses to go through the trouble)...Other devices hooked (or have been hooked) to the the HDMI ports on the TV work flawlessly:

DirecTV HR10-250
DirecTV HR20-700
Denon DVD 3910
Sony BDP-S1Sounds like rotten luck... HDMI intercompatibilities cause various problems among many devices. For instance, if you check my Vantage HD thread, the Denon 3910 you (and I) have will immediately lock up and die when you try to connect it to the Vantage HD, requiring the Denon to be plugged out of the wall socket. Denon could be said to be a very good brand, yet the HDMI implementation issues hound the 3910.

But the HD DVD players on the whole do work, and also meet all the standards of performance that are talked about for the format, including the ones in the rest of my post, like IME and PiP.

Whereas, the Bluray players are largely lacking in many features touted for the format, and even introduce unique issues of their own. I notice in this post of yours you note the following:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9668218&&#post9668218


I have a BDP-S1 via HDMI to a Sony Pearl projector.

Watching this movie at 1080p/24 is bizarre. It looks like claymation. Moving characters are jerky. The picture quality is great as far as detail and sharpness. Maybe the best animation I have seen yet. Watching this movie at 1080p/60 the picture is fine.
I noticed the same problem with my BDP-S1 at 1080p/24 to my Pioneer PDP-6070. I'm not through it yet, but it seems to be cleared up by changing to 1080i (tv won't take 1080p/60)...So it seems like problems are not limited to your A2.

Though I'm not sure why you thought I was "joking" over here in this thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9770958&&#post9770958 - or why you may have thought Amir's comments here were incorrect http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9735494&&#post9735494

I'm sure that your commentary on the A2 is objective, but I haven't seen others saying that it has a bad HDMI implementation.

And your proof that the 51gb disc will work in your current HD DVD player?

And where is your proof that BD-J is holding up titles? PURE SPECULATION

What blu ray player do you own?
The Samsung.

Being able to focus on the third layer is a pretty key part wouldn't you say?

rdjam,

Where is the proof that HD DVD 51gb will work on current players?

Where is the proof that BD-J is holding up warner titles on blu ray? Maybe they are holding out for THD.

My HD D1 was the biggest POS until I sent it to toshiba for repair. It has worked flawlessly since then. They had to replace the drive and mother board. Kudos for Toshiba for fixing it.

That post on the 1080p/24 problem with Open Season is being fixed by sony at the moment. This is the only disc I have encountered that problem with.

Why do you own a Samsung?

Sounds like rotten luck... HDMI intercompatibilities cause various problems among many devices. For instance, if you check my Vantage HD thread, the Denon 3910 you (and I) have will immediately lock up and die when you try to connect it to the Vantage HD, requiring the Denon to be plugged out of the wall socket. Denon could be said to be a very good brand, yet the HDMI implementation issues hound the 3910.

But the HD DVD players on the whole do work, and also meet all the standards of performance that are talked about for the format, including the ones in the rest of my post, like IME and PiP.

Whereas, the Bluray players are largely lacking in many features touted for the format, and even introduce unique issues of their own. I notice in this post of yours you note the following:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9668218&&#post9668218

So it seems like problems are not limited to your A2.

Though I'm not sure why you thought I was "joking" over here in this thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9770958&&#post9770958 - or why you may have thought Amir's comments here were incorrect http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9735494&&#post9735494

I'm sure that your commentary on the A2 is objective, but I haven't seen others saying that it has a bad HDMI implementation.


Could be rotton luck that both A2s I've had did the exact same thing...but, like I said it doesn't bother me so much, but my wife refuses to use it. If you've not read other folks complaining about HDMI on this device you've not looked very hard. My exact problem is in the FAQ on Toshiba's site. You're right I did have a problem with a single BD (Open Season) that was easily worked around...much less of an issue in my view...that being said I never put in a thread that BD just works and HD DVD just doesn't...that was you. (IME is a non-factor for me...I never listened to commentary on DVD and certainly don't intend use IME on next gen stuff...I know opinions differ on that.)

I thought you were joking because the idea is ludicrous...Divx failed miserably because the marketplace isn't there for what you describe...the lack of competition is meaningless if you're selling a product know one wants to buy.

I didn't say Amir was incorrect...all I did was question him...He made a comment about SPE that was in contrast to what Paidgeek had said...I was curious if he had better info than Paidgeek or if he was just marketing his product. I love having the insiders here...they provide a lot of good information, but I wish they would stick to their areas of expertise and leave the back-biting and marketing at the door...I even suggested to the mods a new forum for Talk and Amir to have a place to go and crap on each other that the rest of us that just want good information could avoid.

This thread is the most pointless thing in ages. It is pure speculation. Rdjam has nothing to back up his idea of BD-J holding up titles.


If you do have proof. Lets see it.

Here's an interesting development that seems to back Grubert up...

Both Fox and MGM have just cancelled their release schedules for a whole bunch of Bluray movies, citing "unforseen technical difficulties"... Does this sound like deja-vu or what? Looks like it's more than just Warner that's being hurt by this BD-J problem?

http://www.foxretail.com/sadoc/static/530.pdf

http://www.foxretail.com/sadoc/static/528.pdf

And that delay could be because of a 100 reasons.

Where is your proof that BD-J is holding up warner titles??

You either need to prove your point or drop it.

I posted this in another forum...basically, BD-J (an object oriented comopiled language - Java) is more complex than iHD (a scripting language using Javascript (?)), and so there is a possibility that the hold-up could be because of this complexity, and the dearth of good programmers for it. In the end, I agree that iHD is very good and useful for light interactivity (for example, like google map uses javascript for its online maps), but i have a feeling in the long run a much richer experience can be provided by BD-J (much like Google Earth, which is a full-fledged application, is much better than google maps)...

Just a quick note on BD-J versus iHD.

iHD is a scripting language, akin to javascript running on your browser when on the internet. It is much easier to develop quick scripts on it, but you cannot develop full-fledged "desktop" applications using such scripting languages. This ease of development is why Hd-dvd has a fleeting advantage in this area right now.

BD-J, on the other hand, is a subset of Java, which an object-oriented, compiled programming language which is used to create many kinds of applications, including

apps in your SIM card (on most cellphones)

apps in smartcards (e.g. the US army uses Java smart cards for security)

apps for cellphones and PDAs (the VAST majority of apps and games on cellphones including google maps mobile, google mail, opera mobile, etc use J2ME - or Java Mobile Edition),

desktop apps

server applications (e.g. eBay runs on J2EE or Java Enterprise Edition, and most of Google's server apps are Java-based too).

So, Java is more complex than a scripting language but it promises to provide much more robust applications for Blu-ray in the long run (although the question of "overkill" comes into play). As someone mentioned earlier, it is akin to comparing some javascript running on your browser to a full-fledged application like Adobe Photoshop, Microsoft Office, etc.

Being very new, there is a desperate need for authoring tools and programmers to work on BD-J. In fact, the pay for such programmers, who are in scarce supply, is very high and these people are highly coveted by big blu-ray manufacturers and studios.

In the end though, this "war" will be decided by CONTENT, not by quick gimmicks.

PS. I'm a Java programmer (server and mobile), so of course my sympathies lie with BD-J. I believe in the end it will provide the best quality interactive applications for the user.

I also maintain a small site on BD-J:
http://www.blueboard.com/bluray/

Here's an interesting development that seems to back Grubert up...

Both Fox and MGM have just cancelled their release schedules for a whole bunch of Bluray movies, citing "unforseen technical difficulties"... Does this sound like deja-vu or what? Looks like it's more than just Warner that's being hurt by this BD-J problem?

http://www.foxretail.com/sadoc/static/530.pdf

http://www.foxretail.com/sadoc/static/528.pdf


Anyway, that doesn't mean we don't have some news for you. First up this afternoon, a Blu-ray Disc update. There have been a few reports today that Fox and MGM have cancelled a bunch of their upcoming Blu-ray Disc titles. I spoke with a senior Fox rep a short time ago, and this is completely untrue. What's happening is that they're moving some dates around. Nothing is being cancelled per se. Some titles are moving up, some are being pushed back. There's just a bit of fluidity to the schedule due to authoring and replication issues, and it should all settle down again soon. I'm sure there are those hyping this as "the end of Blu-ray" online, but the reality is far from it. We'll post more details on the revised street dates when they're available.

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/mytwocentsa133.html

You really do love to spin things rdjam.

Still waiting on you to prove your remarks on the laser assembly being altered to do multiple layers of BD. Still waiting on your proof of every HD-A1, A2, and the 360 add-on can read the new, merely announced vaporware 51 gig triple-layer disc any more than they can read the older, merely announced vaporware 45 gig triple-layer disc.

Still waiting for proof that WB is holding back its titles on HD DVD for BD-J on BD. Where is it? You've repeated it over and over so much you've made people on two different threads believe it, but you haven't even proven it. Where's the beef? No more excuses. Either put up or shut up.

And where's that WB comment you were talking about a few days ago? Did they not give you anything after you praised them for... giving you something? Come on, now. Tell us what they said.

Did they have some technical difficulties with HD DVD, did they decide to hold back and see which format is doing better before fully committing again, or could they perhaps be waiting for TotalHD to be sure EVERYONE gets screwed with every release? I'm dying to know what you know for fact. You love to spread your opinions around, but where are the proven facts?

You love to make comments and then hope no one notices that you rarely back them up.

agreed 100%

The HD DVD 51 GB disk is just like the Blu-ray 200GB disk announced a few days later by TDK.......vaporware and meaningless for current and future uses as it pertains to movies. Perhaps they will be used for data backup in PC applications, but that's it.

I agree both of them are vaporware.

Plus HD DVD has all ways stated that they didn't need more than 30GB of space to present a movie in HD.

Why the change of heart at Toshiba rdjam??? Why release a 51GB now?

And that delay could be because of a 100 reasons.

Where is your proof that BD-J is holding up warner titles??

You either need to prove your point or drop it.

For the love of god.... just give me my movies. I would prefer HD-DVD but if it's Blu-Ray that's just fine. Just put them out already. This little fella doesn't have the patience for this stuff. :D

Heh - as opposed to much better equipment available on the HD side, as in players that actually work properly, have the best upscaling of SD DVDs, can actually play CDs (and upsample them to 96/24 audio), have TrueHD 5.1 and DD+ 5.1 decoding, have the FULL Advanced Interactive compatibility (including PiP and Networking), have *working* Ethernet ports, cost half the price, etc etc etc

By the way, I'm sure you would want to make sure your last sentence is interpreted accurately - any more layers that become available to the Bluray standard will not be compatible with current BD players, because the physical range of focus on the current laser assemblies is too tight.

The BD player demoed at CES had had the lens assembly modified to allow it to see the additional layers. Contrast this to the HD DVD 51 gig triple layer, where the current players are fully able to focus at the additional layer, and the only issue at question is potentially noise/error correction.

BTW - since you are back, could you tell us a little bit about the BDJ problems that are causing the delays for studios like Warner?

Thanks!


Prove that the current HD DVD players can read that third layer. Prove that current BD players can't read more than dual layers. I assume you would have already posted links to prove it if you could, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and wait for proof to back up both assertions.

Your argument is broken down as follows:

as opposed to much better equipment available on the HD side:

1) as in players that actually work properly
2) have the best upscaling of SD DVDs,
3) can actually play CDs (and upsample them to 96/24 audio),
4) have TrueHD 5.1 and DD+ 5.1 decoding,
5) have the FULL Advanced Interactive compatibility (including PiP and Networking),
6) have *working* Ethernet ports,
7) cost half the price, etc etc etc

An easy response:

1) I see two problem threads, plus three impressions threads on HD-A1's, A2's, and XA2's that speak to the contrary. Add in the add-on's audio sync problems and poor ability to convert audio to DD. Owning a HD-A1 and now a HD-XA2 along with a PS3, I can tell you I've had remarkably few problems with the PS3 while the HD-A1 syncs every time I use TrueHD once or twice a movie, requiring me to pause it. It has had power down problems, freezes every now and again, and is slow as molasses. Meanwhile, the XA2 I just bought from Amazon has already had garbled audio upon start-up twice, failed to shut down twice, and won't read at least one disc. And it's still slower than the PS3. Tell me again which side fails to "work properly." Because my PS3 laughs at you. Hell, it's even quieter than the two Toshiba's I've had the "pleasure" of owning.

2) Upscaling of DVD is a requirement for next generation playback? Huh? Well, fine, I'll give you that the PS3 is not a great upconverting player. Don't know about the other BD players. Not sure how this really impacts a next generation player, but if it matters, then HD DVD has an advantage here unless Sony works in some upscaling magic into the PS3. It could happen, but it probably won't.

3) Upscaling audio is worthless. The HD-XA2 outputs its audio at whatever level it's supposed to be. The HD-A1 output all TrueHD audio at 24/96 even if it wasn't encoded at that level. This doesn't add anything to the audio and just makes bigger numbers appear on your receiver. Meanwhile, the PS3 can play CD's at the true level.

4) The PS3 does LPCM, DTS-HD, Dolby Digital (up to the 640k done by WB), and Dolby TrueHD. So technically, it does more than the HD-DVD players made by Toshiba (including the add-on). As recently as a few days ago, LPCM was rated higher by highdefdigest in comparing the two versions of The Departed. Most users who have both say the same in various threads. I know I've come to the conclusion that TrueHD isn't quite as good. And more BD's incorporate lossless audio than HD DVD's. No advantage at all.

5) The PS3 can do the simple java of BD+. It can also run up to two full 1080p streams at full speed. Meanwhile, I'd love for you to prove that most consumers will even care about interactive features that require ethernet. It's always been my opinion that most consumers buy movies for the movies and that few seem interested in bonus features that require more effort than a button press to access. Are you telling me you think there is a large percentage of would-be HD users able, ready, willing, and aching to hook up their HD DVD player (or BD player) to their network switch/router to access these features? Are you telling me that you think the movie companies that are routinely lazy (like WB or Fox) are dying to produce massive amounts of new content to make this option highly desired? Because last time I checked, even Xbox 360's Live service still has a hard time getting more even half (if that many) its users to go online and that's a gaming system. Far more hardcore than people who just want to watch movies. More than that, just look at how much trouble people are having with roughly half the A2's out there, just trying to get them to go online and updated, then tell me Toshiba's up to the task...

6) PS3 has a gigabit port. It gets updates regularly. Far more regularly than the forgotten A1/XA1 or the XA2 that still waits for its long-promised update. Poor Robert's actually quietened down now that we're still waiting for "The One Update to Rule Them All." Wonder if my XA2'll be able to download that or suffer from the same problem as the A2 (and not be able to)...

7) PS3 costs 500-600 bucks MSRP. The HD-A2 costs 500 bucks MSRP. The XA2 costs 1k MSRP. The add-on costs 200 bucks MSRP, requiring an at least 300 bucks MSRP purchase or a $500-1k+ PC purchase.

I guess this is why you hate the PS3 so much. It really shuts up all your arguments, but the upconverting DVD one. And to be fair, that is why I bought the XA2, but how many people are going to buy a HD DVD player for JUST the ability to upconvert their dvds when the next gen BD players are promising to do the same in a month or so (Samsung 1200)?

Especially when you buy a next generation disc player to play next generation discs and one side has three times as many coming this year...

And that delay could be because of a 100 reasons.

Where is your proof that BD-J is holding up warner titles??

You either need to prove your point or drop it.
Wow -phansson - have you been assigned as the official attack dog for this week? That's an awful lot of very strident posts in such a short space.

It's pretty widely held that BD-J is holding up Bluray releases - this thread by Grubert has been an ongoing dicussion for AGES, now.

And I've started a few other threads related to the issue and invited REPEATEDLY talkstr8t of Sun to give us comment. He stayed away from the issue for many days and has not directly denied that there is a problem, in fact acknowledging that more tools will be available later to help with decelopment.

Pack up your indignance, please...

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/mytwocentsa133.html

You really do love to spin things rdjam.It sort of seems that the only "spinner" here may be you? The release schedules for those titles HAVE been cancelled, and that is fact, and it is what I stated. Bill Hunt has put his own stamp on it by calling this untrue, but what the BR PR guy is saying is that the TITLES have not been cancelled, just the schedule - why don't you read a little before launching an attack like this?

No one is saying that these titles will NEVER be released, but there is NO CURRENT plan for their release, NO ALTERNATE DATES, and the titles have been removed from listings on places like Amazon.

I suggest that you come to terms with it, my friend... ;)

Still waiting on you to prove your remarks on the laser assembly being altered to do multiple layers of BD. You're appear somewhat hyperactive today, so you can no doubt search google for the many postings and articles about the demo, on the web. I have already stated that in the demo, they admitted that the lens assembly had been physically modified, in response to your last barrage. I'm sure you can verify this for yourself or prove me wrong. Your ball...

You're attempts to make this out as a lie are rather transparent woffle.

Still waiting on your proof of every HD-A1, A2, and the 360 add-on can read the new, merely announced vaporware 51 gig triple-layer disc...Now you are referring to a completely different conversation, but as I ALREADY stated in that previous dicussion, I will NOT be discussing how I heard what I did. ;)

I WOULD point out, however, that you are rather blatantly trying to insert the A1 into that category when I did not original include it as such, as opposed to the 2nd gen machines, in the original discussion. Perhaps you are doing this to try to use it later? Either way, to restate my position, I am pretty confident about the A2/E1/XA2/E2/Xbox drive but not sure of the A1/XA1/D1 - just for the record. ;)

If you don't feel the same way then fine, I respect your position that you don't agree or hold the same feelings. And you don't have to accept my belief that they will... Period...

Still waiting for proof that WB is holding back its titles on HD DVD for BD-J on BD. Where is it? You've repeated it over and over so much you've made people on two different threads believe it, but you haven't even proven it. Where's the beef? No more excuses. Either put up or shut up.Oh, you really expect SUn Microsystems or the BDA to come out and say "Oh! You got me! Yeah, it's true!"?? HAH!! What are you on?

HOWEVER - did you not notice 4 threads discussing VARIOUS aspects of the BD-J problem - running for many days - with REPEATED invitations to talkstr8t from Sun to make a comment confirming or denying the issue. DON'T YOU THINK that he, possibly one of the most outspoken people on the forums, would have rushed in to make an INSTANT and NO HOLDS BARRED categorical denial that there were any such BDJ issues causing delays to Bluray releases?

No he did not... would you have a better explanation for it than it is obviously true? And as for Warner stating they they wanted to release HD and BD titles at the same time, this has been covered already. Whether some people felt this was a "policy" or not is the only thing that can be debated. Warner now says it is not "policy", so we are waiting to see the results.

And where's that WB comment you were talking about a few days ago? Did they not give you anything after you praised them for... giving you something? Come on, now. Tell us what they said.Man, you should get out more... Warner's letter was posted in about 5 other threads... go fetch. :p

You love to make comments and then hope no one notices that you rarely back them up.Absolute nonsense. When something is my opinion, I will clearly state it as so. This is entirely different to me saying in plain English that something is an absolute fact. The problem is some folks (cough) don't like me making a big deal of my opinions about certain VERY SENSITIVE situations which could hurt their favourite format.... (cough)

I notice that as soon as I added some information to the BDJ threads which was (cough) potentially troublesome, such as the CANCELLATION of the release SCHEDULES for a number of BD movies, due to "unforseen technical difficulties" that I am once again the subject of rather rabid and personal attacks?

I wonder - perhaps trying to derail the thread to keep this this ugly BDJ issue out of sight?

Hmmmmm?....

Your argument is broken down as follows: [huge SNIP]
I think I made my argument well enough for myself, thanks.

In brief, I will point out that all your opposing points were cherry picked from a variety of players and with heavy reliance of the PS3, which at the end of the day is a software player.

You cannot possible dispute that the mandatory HD DVD player specs give much more to the consumer in benefits and features, such as audio decoders, networking, Interactive features and capabilities - and are half the price of equivalent BR players.

The continued promotion of the PS3 game console as though it were the only BR player only highlights how poor the existing BR standalone players are....

Oh - back on topic - Did I mention BD-J?

It's pretty widely held that BD-J is holding up Bluray releases - this thread by Grubert has been an ongoing dicussion for AGES, now.

Is there proof of this though?

If not, then no matter how long this thread, then you can't assume that.

The HD DVD 51 GB disk is just like the Blu-ray 200GB disk announced a few days later by TDK.......vaporware and meaningless for current and future uses as it pertains to movies. Perhaps they will be used for data backup in PC applications, but that's it.
With full respect, they are not the same in a number of ways.

Sure, they are alike, in that neither is on the market, nor officially in the respective formats' specs yet.

However, they are different in that existing BR players cannot physically read the 100 or 200 Gig (single sided) lab rats yet. Whereas current HD DVD players are already capable of reading triple layer discs. Currently those triple layer discs known to be tested are upcoming DVD/HD DVD combos - but I am happy in my belief that three HD layers are readable too.

Wow -phansson - have you been assigned as the official attack dog for this week? That's an awful lot of very strident posts in such a short space.

It's pretty widely held that BD-J is holding up Bluray releases - this thread by Grubert has been an ongoing dicussion for AGES, now.

No I am not the official attack dog this week. I just don't appreciate you coming over to the Blu Ray forum to spread all of you unverifiable information.

If you have some VERIFIABLE information on BD-J holding up Blu Ray/HD DVD titles. Please share it with us. I will gladly not "bother" you if you would back up your statements.

Whereas current HD DVD players are already capable of reading triple layer discs. Currently those triple layer discs known to be tested are upcoming DVD/HD DVD combos - but I am happy in my belief that three HD layers are readable too.

Where is that press release. I have not seen one comment by Toshiba stating that the 51gb will be playable in current HD DVD hardware.

Can we see that please?

Oh right, you just pull these "beliefs" out of the air and have nothing to back them up with.

Is there proof of this though?

If not, then no matter how long this thread, then you can't assume that.
All evidence points to it, so it's my opinion that it's true, given the total absence of a denial, despite very open and vigorous debate in many threads.

I'm not saying it's fact formally confirmed by the related companies, as that is obviously an unrealistic expectation, given the embarassment it would cause them and the Bluray format - only that it seems preeeety darned obvious that it's the truth to me - seemingly confirmed by new events such as the FOX and MGM delays and the absence of a formal denial by Sun or talkstr8t...

Regardless of the swings of a thread discussion, many folks have likely made their mind up about this - I think possible even the most hardline BD supporters probably realize that this is true, too - even if they are unwilling to concede this in these discussions here.... ;)

All evidence points to it, so it's my opinion that it's true, given the total absence of a denial, despite very open and vigorous debate in many threads.
By that logic, though, isn't there a total absence of confirmation?

Whereas current HD DVD players are already capable of reading triple layer discs. Currently those triple layer discs known to be tested are upcoming DVD/HD DVD combos - but I am happy in my belief that three HD layers are readable too.
Where is that press release. I have not seen one comment by Toshiba stating that the 51gb will be playable in current HD DVD hardware.

Can we see that please?

Oh right, you just pull these "beliefs" out of the air and have nothing to back them up with.
Oh dear - we seem to have a comprehension disconnect. I have included my statement that you quoted.

In it I state my understanding that the 3-layer HD DVD/DVD combo disc can be read, while I indicate my opinon that 3-layer HD DVD can be read too.

If you'd like to see some info on the former, there's lots out there, and there's not much debate they'll play on HD DVD players (or for that matter the DVD layer on DVD players either).

http://digg.com/hardware/Toshiba_Triple_layer_HD_DVD_Hybrids

The three-layer discs will allow for either two HD DVD layers and one DVD layer, or two DVD layers and one HD DVD. When configured to the former, close to 35 GB can be stored (30 GB of HD DVD and 4.7 GB of SD DVD). Ideally, then, videos can be played on DVD and HD DVD players.

http://hometheater.about.com/b/a/169684.htm

Following this announcement, the Warner, Paramount, and Universal Home Video divisions all hailed both the triple-layer disc and dual-layer HD-DVD/DVD hybrid disk breakthroughs as an important plus for HD-DVD over Sony's rival Blu-ray.

http://www.engadget.com/2006/09/11/toshibas-triple-layer-hd-dvd-dvd-discs/

The resulting disc can be manufactured on the same HD DVD production lines with little modification and conceivably play either HD or DVD films (without flipping the disc) when fed into a regular ol' DVD or new fangled HD DVD player.

As far as public statements on the 51 Gig disc, as stated above in relation to my quote, I have not said there has been any public statement on that, at any time.

However, I draw your attention to the fact that Toshiba intends to begin volume production of these discs in the fourth quarter of this year. That would certainly SEEM to indicate that they feel it works, since there would be no point to volume production if existing players can't read them, non?

http://www.tgdaily.com/2007/01/12/toshiba_hd_dvd/

Cheers.

seemingly confirmed by new events such as the FOX and MGM delays and the absence of a formal denial by Sun or talkstr8t...I don't necessarily have such information, and even when I do I don't speak for the studios. The absence of a formal denial from me says nothing about the issues you reference, it just says I'm not going to blindly defend BD-J where I have incomplete information.
In it I state my understanding that the 3-layer HD DVD/DVD combo disc can be read, while I indicate my opinon that 3-layer HD DVD can be read too.Yes, I'm sure it's no more difficult to read a 17GB layer than a 4.7GB layer buried beneath two other layers on a drive designed and manufactured well in advance of either a specification or test discs.

I don't necessarily have such information, and even when I do I don't speak for the studios. The absence of a formal denial from me says nothing about the issues you referenceFair enough, but I believe that it does.

... it just says I'm not going to blindly defend BD-J where I have incomplete information.Nothing has stopped you from doing so before in other discussions, whether BDJ or just Bluray in general, which perhaps you would know even less about than BDJ... :)

I think I can remove the question mark from the title thread.

From thedigitalbits, in the context of the Matrix HD DVD announcement:

As Warner notes in their press release, Blu-ray Disc versions of both of these sets will be released later in 2007. We've done a little digging, and as you might expect, the delay in getting Blu-ray Disc versions out at the same time is related to the lack of full implementation of BD-Java in Blu-ray Disc authoring software and player hardware - implementation that's needed to do the same kinds of In-Movie Experience features in Blu-ray that can be done in HD-DVD. Certainly, if there's any one area where HD-DVD can be said to be far ahead of Blu-ray Disc, it's in implementation of the interactive features. The HDi interactive spec for HD-DVD is mandatory in all players, as is Internet connectivity, whereas BD-Java is only starting to be fully implemented in Blu-ray hardware and much of the spec's capabilities are optional right now. And Warner wants the extras on their titles to be the same on both formats whenever possible. So for those of you wondering why The Matrix isn't announced yet for Blu-ray, or why Batman Begins or V for Vendetta aren't for that matter, that's the reason.