Well, Managed Copy [mandatory or not] is going to be offered in the near future [probably in a year]. Given that, I am interested in seeing which format people would prefer to invest in - with the future in mind.

1. HD-DVD: Arguably the posterboy of frugality when it comes to the format war, HD-DVD's whole USP is to do more with less - ranging from the major studio and CE support, to the disc capacity and bandwidth rates of audio and video codecs. Given that most HD-DVDs are in VC-1, a format pushing the envelope of lowest average bandwidth for highest quality, HD-DVD appears to be the most suited for Managed Copy and home media networking (wired and wireless streaming, in the near future).

2. Blu-Ray: Arguably the big burly beast, the Goliath of the two formats in this format war, this is the format of excess and abundance - once again from the studio and CE support to the bandwidth caps of its audio/video codecs. Movies promise to come out on mammoth 50GB discs, with audio/video streams pushing the 40+ Mbps threshold for bandwidth. These movies will need more storage for arguable improvements in PQ/AQ, and need higher bandwidth for wired/wireless streaming in a home media network. UNLESS the movies are transcoded into lower size either by re-encoding the AV content, or by the use of ultra fast wireless networks in the home to consistently deliver the 40+Mbps at all required distances. How many people will be willing to invest in the extra overhead needed for sufficient storage in native format, or transcoding horsepower for space savings, or high-speed wider-range ultra broadband wired/wireless technologies for home media networking?

My choice: HD-DVD is THE format most suited for the future due to the points mentioned above. YMMV, and I would love to hear various viewpoints on this inevitable future direction of both formats.

I answered "both" as in I'd like to do MC for both, but I think in truth, it will probably be "neither".

I'm guessing that managed copy on HD DVD will be less restrictive, due to better intergration with Windows and dependent media players.

With Bluray, I'm guessing Sony willlock it down like Fort Knox and you'll be screwed to their (or partners') proprietary players.

Sorry, Sony - just going from your past track record on this guess...

If I MC irt will be BD, but my answer is neither. The reality is

1) both formats offer MC
2) there is no reason that MC would be different on a different format
3) if someone wants a bad over compressed lossy audio version on their server they can re-encode during the MC (if it is not on the disk) so if that is what you want you don't need to start from an HD DVD :) you can even MC down to DVD quality if it makes you feel better

If I MC irt will be BD, but my answer is neither. The reality is

1) both formats offer MC
2) there is no reason that MC would be different on a different format
3) if someone wants a bad over compressed lossy audio version on their server they can re-encode during the MC (if it is not on the disk) so if that is what you want you don't need to start from an HD DVD :) you can even MC down to DVD quality if it makes you feel better

I absolutely agree on 1) and 2).

Are you going to archive (MC) BD movies at their native size and data rate? That would limit how you can transmit the content in a home network. More data and data rate requirements - and it would fast become uneconomical at Blu-Ray's size. The need to transcode becomes far greater for Blu-Ray than HD-DVD, for arguable benefits in PQ and AQ.

With MC I think HD DVDs more frugal manner is the most beneficial. Although I don't think it'll be much of a difference between both movies.

I love that 1TB drives will soon be available for $400 and that by 2009 we'll have 2.5TB hard drives (says Seagate). While this seems like storage only limited by your finances I think that one must still be frugal. Bandwidth is still premium and many of us simply do not have a ethernet infrastructure at home that allows for Gigabit speeds so wireless tech is going to be key.

Now even with the increased speeds of 802.11n and the QoS features the probability of running two concurrent streams of 40Mb audio/video versus two concurrent 25Mb streams isn't looking so good. Wired connections won't have this problem but I can easily see the wireless limitations.

All in all I really hope the studios embrace MC and allow us to move into a new arena for video consumption. I'm ok with some DRM restrictions and realize that protection of studio IP is essential.

I don't think MC is coming anytime soon. We'll be lucky to get it in 2008 but I do look forward to it when it does in fact get here.

Are you going to archive (MC) BD movies at their native size and data rate? That would limit how you can transmit the content in a home network. More data and data rate requirements - and it would fast become uneconomical at Blu-Ray's size. The need to transcode becomes far greater for Blu-Ray than HD-DVD, for arguable benefits in PQ and AQ.

I don't know what I will do. MC is just one step that means nothing. MC is a business transaction, it is a way for you to pay to make a copy from an AACS disk to something else. That something else is yet an unknown. If there is something that is enticing and the price is right then I will use it. At this point disks are just too easy and easier then a several TB server.

As for streaming, we are not talking internet (that will be illegal) we are talking wireless or wired internal network,
Ethernet – not an issue
802.11b – neither, they both need to be reencoded
802.11g – both are OK

so I don’t see BD as being a bigger issue

running two concurrent streams of 40Mb audio/video as well as two concurrent 25Mb

why two 40 and two 25?

why two 40 and two 25?

I meant versus. I think bandwidth is pretty important as long as there isn't quality loss and right now I cannot say that a 40Mbit video is always going to be visibly superior to a 20mbit movie.

I meant versus. I think bandwidth is pretty important as long as there isn't quality loss and right now I cannot say that a 40Mbit video is always going to be visibly superior to a 20mbit movie.

that makes more sense. But don't forget that you most likely won't stream to your main display (so two means three for most people) and 40/25 is most likley wrong. A disk needs to have all the content an MC does not. What I mean is why would you MC the French audio, Spanish audio, lossless, lossy, subtitles, IME.... if you don't need them. In the end (when streaming MC content) there will most likely not be as big a difference in BD MCed content as HD DVD MCed. The reason you need it on a disk is that a disk must fit it all through the pipe, when you MC you can cut down and a good server should be able to clean up the rest before sending (i.e. you MC English lossless, English lossy and IME to HDD – skipping other languages and subtitles – then when watching it in the bedroom where you only havethe TVs speakers and you don’t want IME it should just stream the movie and lossy –stereo – audio )

I don't know what I will do. MC is just one step that means nothing. MC is a business transaction, it is a way for you to pay to make a copy from an AACS disk to something else. That something else is yet an unknown. If there is something that is enticing and the price is right then I will use it. At this point disks are just too easy and easier then a several TB server.

As for streaming, we are not talking internet (that will be illegal) we are talking wireless or wired internal network,
Ethernet – not an issue
802.11b – neither, they both need to be reencoded
802.11g – both are OK

so I don’t see BD as being a bigger issue

Wired Fast Ethernet (100 Mbps up to 330m without repeaters) is great as long as the rooms are close, and is suited for most home networks.

802.11b - not suited for either HD formats at HD resolutions due to poor range and barely 7-8 Mbps practical peak speed.

802.11a/g - suitable for HD data rates, mostly for a range of a couple of tens of feet. Modifications like SuperG 108Mbps, MIMO and RangeBooster would offer the required speeds for HD but once again range is critical.

802.11n draft: arguably has the muscle enough for HD optical formats in their native data rates, but once again, the effective range is the most critical issue here without using repeaters.

See the following for wireless speeds and ranges:



Protocol======Data Rate (Typical) === Data Rate (Max) === Range (Indoor)

802.11a ====== 25.0 Mbit/s ====== 54 Mbit/s ====== ~30 meters
802.11b ====== 6.50 Mbit/s ====== 11 Mbit/s ====== ~30 meters
802.11g ====== 25.0 Mbit/s ====== 54 Mbit/s ====== ~30 meters
802.11n ====== 200 Mbit/s ====== 540 Mbit/s ====== ~50 meters
(draft)



This shows that even with the best wireless technology available, the difficulty to get economical home wireless networks increases exponentially as the data rates increase.

This makes the data rates of MC copies very important for home media networks. J6Ps need not apply, of course.

This shows that even with the best wireless technology available, the difficulty to get economical home wireless networks increases exponentially as the data rates increase.

This makes the data rates of MC copies very important for home media networks.

agree, but the point is still the same. At the end of the day an MC from BD or HD DVD will (or won't ) have the same issues depending on what you have. A BD can't be streamed as is on a 802.11b but neither can the HD DVD so its smaller BW does not help. One HD DVD stream can be done on a 802.11g but then so can BD.

Don't forget at the end we are talking peaks and not sustaned BW. Also with larger BW there is less chances of peeking

The question is will unoffical third party managed copy solutions hit the market before the offical ones? ;)

The question is will unoffical third party managed copy solutions hit the market before the offical ones? ;)
Yikes - MMC = Muslix Managed Copy? :)

For all that's been said above... HD DVD.

I suspect that BR and HD DVD CP is already a moot point. It will stop the casual, and slow down the determined. The cat is already out of the bag. Discs are not the only source of HD content, you know.

I would prefer the MPAA spend their money on lawyers (can't believe I said that!) to prosecute the flagrant, and not to screw up my HDMI connection when playing MY HD DVDs (from MY camcorder).

Dave

I'm about ready to take the HD DVD plunge on my PC. Since my monitor (Dell 2405FPW) is non-HDCP compliant, and there aren't nearly enough titles to justify a new display as well as a drive, I'll probably have to decrypt all the discs I buy anyhow. If I'm decrypting as a matter of course, managed copy becomes a non-issue.

[Before anyone asks, I don't intend to download pirated titles -- the downloads are huge, burning 30GB to cheap DVD5s takes ages, and a good HD movie encode to DVD9 with x264 takes 3 or 4 days. It's easier to just buy discs. If the industry will allow you to play them...]

The question is will unoffical third party managed copy solutions hit the market before the offical ones?
haven’t they?

I'd like to see MMC on both formats. What I'd like to see is having the actual MMC versions stored on the disc itself so we can limit the transcoding/re-encoding that might be needed for smaller versions of the feature. This could be an advantage for BD50 if they are using vc1/h264. I'm also curious on this with HD DVD should TL 45/51 disks come into fruition. Maybe when managed copy capable hd dvd players come out, they can put the stored MMC versions on the 3rd layer so that current discs can still play the feature and newer players capable of reading 3 layers can access the MC. Thinking out loud....

I'll take unmanaged copies FTW :D

haven’t they?

I'm was talking about a full intergrated software/hardware solution (read/copy/streaming/playback). But yeah i supose one can preform their own "unmanaged" copy with the current tools.

Why use managed copy when you allready can rip the whole disc. Fair use FTW