When I look at flat panel displays, it really bothers me when you see squares in quick moving scenes such as water and other high motion scenes. What is the issue here? I could see a very clear difference between panels. Technology (LCD vs. Plasma) also demonstrated differences - I'm refraining to mention which was better because I don't want the thread to head off course. Is that refresh rate...the ability for the electronics decoder/scaler to keep up with the source...the panel technology itself?

What technology advancement will best address this issue? It's why I haven't bought a panel yet - it drives me crazy to watch.

Just bought a new plasma..50 inch Panny commercial HD display and can assure you..I see none of those squares you mention. I see a seamless picture..no more..no less..

When I look at flat panel displays, it really bothers me when you see squares in quick moving scenes such as water and other high motion scenes. What is the issue here? I could see a very clear difference between panels. Technology (LCD vs. Plasma) also demonstrated differences - I'm refraining to mention which was better because I don't want the thread to head off course. Is that refresh rate...the ability for the electronics decoder/scaler to keep up with the source...the panel technology itself?

What technology advancement will best address this issue? It's why I haven't bought a panel yet - it drives me crazy to watch.This is macroblocking, from the decoding/upscaling of a compressed image stream. It is definitely worse with some scalars, and is generally worse on some display types. (For example, Oppo recommends against the use of one of their DVD players on large DLP and PDP sets.) If your set comparisons were at the store, then you should also remember that you were dealing with uncalibrated sets - 80% of artifacts disappear on sets of anyof the technologues when you take them out of torch mode and turn down the edge enhancement. - DR

I was looking around BB the other day and noticed this "pixelation", or tiny block artifacts around the edges of fast moving objects, such as football players, etc... I noticed this on several plasmas, including top name brands. Could this just be the poor video feed they send them?

I was looking around BB the other day and noticed this "pixelation", or tiny block artifacts around the edges of fast moving objects, such as football players, etc... I noticed this on several plasmas, including top name brands. Could this just be the poor video feed they send them?

Yes what you are seeing are compression artifacts...Direct TV HD has perhaps the poorest HD signal available...plenty of MPEG2 compression artifacts.

Most of the BB feeds I have seen suffer from a variety of artifacts...in particular the ones you describe.

I have absolutely zero artifacts of this type with my cable system HD.

What technology advancement will best address this issue? It's why I haven't bought a panel yet - it drives me crazy to watch.
They're compression artifacts from the source (cable company or dish). I get them on every set in my house. My plasma actually had less of them than my CRT for some reason.

They're compression artifacts from the source (cable company or dish). I get them on every set in my house. My plasma actually had less of them than my CRT for some reason.

But this is the point. At any store (they are all the same), some panels are better than others on this issue. This implies that some sets deal with this issue better than others vs the source being the issue. Specifically, the Pioneer PRO FHD-1 did the best job of handling this issue and I've seen this at several stores. Surprisingly, the new Sony XBR3 did a terrible job. Now the salesperson argued plasma vs LCD, but I find that hard to believe. To me it seems to be the electronics on the pioneer are probably superior to the Sony's. That being said, the guy said the Sony was the best LCD they had. I didn't have another Plasma as a "control" but again, I assume it was something other than the display technology.

My best guess would be that the scaler is the issue. I also see the jagged edges around things too (like the zoomed out football picture where the players look ok, but the player's edges look like an Atari 2600 rendering them). I view that as a related, but different issue since there isn't necessarily a lot of motion around the players, but rather a color/contrast boundary that the panel has to smooth over. The issue I'm asking about seems to be related to the speed at which the scaler has to work to "keep up."

My best guess would be that the scaler is the issue. I also see the jagged edges around things too (like the zoomed out football picture where the players look ok, but the player's edges look like an Atari 2600 rendering them).This is not at all unusual when a TV is in torch mode (as most are in stores) and you are viewing SD material. What you are seeing is extreme edge-enhancement and color bleed-through. When the TV is properly calibrated, it will handle this kind of source much better. - DR

This is not at all unusual when a TV is in torch mode (as most are in stores) and you are viewing SD material. What you are seeing is extreme edge-enhancement and color bleed-through. When the TV is properly calibrated, it will handle this kind of source much better. - DR

I'd have to see that to believe it. With what I have seen in the stores, there are many panels that are totally unacceptable for SD, regardless of size. And again, the pioneer does not seem to have this issue. Of course, the pioneers tend to be setup better and maybe calibrated properly since that's the only way to sell one at that price. But in any case, it does a great job given the poor source of SD.

And again, the pioneer does not seem to have this issue. Of course, the pioneers tend to be setup better and maybe calibrated properly since that's the only way to sell one at that price.
Depends on where you are. In my local best buy, the pannys are the only plasmas adjusted to look their best on a regular basis (one of the salesmen is a panny fanboy).

I'd have to see that to believe it. Well, you posted a question here, and a few of us answered the question in good faith. You can choose to believe or not, but I wonder what you expected by way of answers? We can't post our calibrated sets! - DR

When I look at flat panel displays, it really bothers me when you see squares in quick moving scenes such as water and other high motion scenes. What is the issue here? I could see a very clear difference between panels. Technology (LCD vs. Plasma) also demonstrated differences - I'm refraining to mention which was better because I don't want the thread to head off course. Is that refresh rate...the ability for the electronics decoder/scaler to keep up with the source...the panel technology itself?

What technology advancement will best address this issue? It's why I haven't bought a panel yet - it drives me crazy to watch.
You ask
What technology advancement will best address this issue? It's why I haven't bought a panel yet - it drives me crazy to watch.
The technology advancements that can best help this are two

(1) Better compression algorithms for content delivery in both broadcast and disk

(2) Better processors such as the new Slicon Optics Realta/Reon chips w/Terenax alglorithims for better de-interlacing, scaling, and sophisticated noise reduction.

#2 is already available in disk players (Toshiba XA1 and Dennon currently and soon in Samsung's BD player w/more to follow I am sure.) You will also see these chips emerge in high-end AV receivers either later this year or for sure next year. I expect this will bring a quantum leap in PQ to HD displays for both HD and SD content.

Cheers, :)

Gary

Well, you posted a question here, and a few of us answered the question in good faith. You can choose to believe or not, but I wonder what you expected by way of answers? We can't post our calibrated sets! - DR

Not sure why the tone of our response . This particular answer was noted, but given how bad the picture was, I'd have to see the difference calibration makes before I'd buy. Seems like simple logic to me, not questioning whether torch mode is a contributing factor. If you read the rest of the thread, there are many possible answers, and many of these folks appear credible too. I actually believe it's a combination of factors (whether or not I'm correct, it's where I am right now).

Not sure why the tone of our response . This particular answer was noted, but given how bad the picture was, I'd have to see the difference calibration makes before I'd buy.That will be tough in the shop. As for the tone, something like "OK I'll keep that in mind" might have been a better response than "I don't believe you":-)

If you read the rest of the thread, there are many possible answers, and many of these folks appear credible too. I actually believe it's a combination of factors (whether or not I'm correct, it's where I am right now).At least one of those other folks was me too, and of course there is a combination of reasons as to why the pictures in the shop are so bad. Most of us pointed out high compression and weak/oversplit signal, in this post I was just addressing the specific problem of cartoon edges, which is a classic symptom of exaggerated edge enhancement and oversaturated color. In a couple of posts you've jumped to the conclusion that the sets exhibiting this problem were inferior to those that do not (ie, questioning the ability of the scaler to keep up), when the difference you are reporting is almost surely not due to hardware inferiority. - DR

At least one of those other folks was me too, and of course there is a combination of reasons as to why the pictures in the shop are so bad. Most of us pointed out high compression and weak/oversplit signal, in this post I was just addressing the specific problem of cartoon edges, which is a classic symptom of exaggerated edge enhancement and oversaturated color. In a couple of posts you've jumped to the conclusion that the sets exhibiting this problem were inferior to those that do not (ie, questioning the ability of the scaler to keep up), when the difference you are reporting is almost surely not due to hardware inferiority. - DR

I agree, this definitely sounds like a video source related problem, not display related. Just recently, I've been experiencing similar macroblocking directly related to my local cable company's compression of the video feed. Sometimes even worse, the entire cable channel has gone blank dure to the poor degradation of the video source. This is not just HD Channels, but several other SD channels usually in the upper tier of the lineup. I've had the cableguy out to my home and he told me their company is in the process of upgrading their equipment and video compression is the biggest problem due to all the other services they are trying to cram into the pipeline. The previous 4 years of HDTV ownership, I had never experienced this problem to any degree that I do now. I'm thinking of checking into satellite, but I've heard they have their own set of problems too.

I agree, this definitely sounds like a video source related problem, not display related. Just recently, I've been experiencing similar macroblocking directly related to my local cable company's compression of the video feed. Sometimes even worse, the entire cable channel has gone blank dure to the poor degradation of the video source. This is not just HD Channels, but several other SD channels usually in the upper tier of the lineup. I've had the cableguy out to my home and he told me their company is in the process of upgrading their equipment and video compression is the biggest problem due to all the other services they are trying to cram into the pipeline. The previous 4 years of HDTV ownership, I had never experienced this problem to any degree that I do now. I'm thinking of checking into satellite, but I've heard they have their own set of problems too.

Satellite is worse than cable when it comes to compression artifacts.

Satellite is worse than cable when it comes to compression artifacts.

Depends on your cable provider.

Depends on your cable provider.

Really? What cable provider sucks worse than satellite for compression artifacts?

Really? What cable provider sucks worse than satellite for compression artifacts?

I've never had a satellite service, but from my recent experiences w/Brighthouse I'd like to throw them under the bus. Not a happy camper any more...not to mention their ole-timey 3 year-old perhistoric SA8300 HD box.

Really? What cable provider sucks worse than satellite for compression artifacts?

My parents have Cox digital cable, and it looks miserable compared to my Dish Network. I had it myself for a week, then I canceled and got Dish because of the poor quality of the cable signal.

I've never had a satellite service, but from my recent experiences w/Brighthouse I'd like to throw them under the bus. Not a happy camper any more...not to mention their ole-timey 3 year-old perhistoric SA8300 HD box.

Really? We have Brighthouse here in Tampa, and the HD is awesome...no problems at all.

Satellite is worse than cable when it comes to compression artifacts.


Depends where you live.

In Canada I Bell Express (sat) view probably has the best PQ, and both Starchoice (the other Sat) and Shaw (cable) suffer from bad compression artifacts. Of coarse the absolute worst is Telus (phone system).

My parents have Cox digital cable, and it looks miserable compared to my Dish Network. I had it myself for a week, then I canceled and got Dish because of the poor quality of the cable signal.

Really surprises me since since you get a double wammy with Dish. Dish not only compresses the signal but down rez's it as well (hd-lite).

Really? We have Brighthouse here in Tampa, and the HD is awesome...no problems at all.

I "used" to say this but no more. I pay a subscription for this service. Would you be happy to pay a magazine subcription that had a portion of the pages blanked out or unreadable? I don't think so. This is unacceptable to me, and I'm going to try and resolve it one way or another. AND ANOTHER pive....get this frack'in dinosaur SA8300 STB updated! It's now well over 3 years old, which is ancient in CE video language!

I "used" to say this but no more. I pay a subscription for this service. Would you be happy to pay a magazine subcription that had a portion of the pages blanked out or unreadable? I don't think so. This is unacceptable to me, and I'm going to try and resolve it one way or another. AND ANOTHER pive....get this frack'in dinosaur SA8300 STB updated! It's now well over 3 years old, which is ancient in CE video language!

Can't you just go swap it?