I hope this question hasn't been covered in a previous post. I've been reading a lot of posts on this forum lately. I have a 1 month old Pioneer PDP-5070HD Plasma display. It has about 300 hours on it. I'm using the latest version of the GetGray DVD to calibrate the user settings through an Oppo 981HD HDMI output to the display. The pattern I'm having a problem with is the color intensity one. When the color of the upper & lower bar appears equal using the blue filter my color intensity is set to +12. When viewing any DVD movie the color is way oversaturated. I reduce the setting to -2 & it's just about perfect color intensity wise. I don't have a problem with the brightness, contrast or hue adjustments. The display has been calibrated to D6500. The grayscale is +/- 4 percent between the primary colors. Color error is less than 3 from 20 IRE to 80 IRE. I did the same adjustment using an older Video Essentials DVD with exactly the same results. Does anyone have any idea what's going on? Thanks

Terry

Correct me if I am wrong here, but blue filters really shine with CRT's and not DLP, Plasma, etc. I have a 65" DLP and I willnnot rely on the blue filter as it is not an accurate judge with these newer sets.

It's red push!
Saturation/color control dosen't change the "saturation" of a color which is the pureness of the color. It changes the intensity of the decoded color instead. One uses the blue filter to adjust the intensity of blue and asume the decoder will decode the other color properly when blue is properly adjusted. But for a lot of display that's not true. What you're seeing is red push. You can use avia disc with the three color filter set to check the decoder error or you can use a colorimeter like spyder2 with the free hcfr software to check the red push. What you're doiing is a crude way to dealt with the red push. I am not familiar with your display. Some display do allow you to manipulate the decoder directly or indirectly thru color management.

Sometimes these gel filters will allow other colors (like green) to bleed through, skewing your results. If you are reducing color to knock down really bright "day-glo" reds, then you have red push.

Thank you all for your responses. I had the 5070 ISF calibrated by a local tech. I have Spyder2 & CalMAN & used it to verify the results of the ISF calibration. As far as I know there is no red push. The color of the display on satellite programming or SD DVD is stunning. All colors look gorgeous with no hint of extra blue, green or red in any image. The ISF tech had the DVE DVD & came up with the same result with his color pattern & the blue filter. +12 through the blue filter & -2 in actual practice. He had no explanation for it which is why I posted the question on this forum. It's not a compaint at all. Just curiosity. I appreciate your explanations. Thanks for the explanations. In hindsight I should have titled this thread "Excessive Color Intensity" rather than "Excessive Color Saturation". The color intensity adjustment in the user menu was the control I was referring to.

Terry.

Greetings

Gels are simply tools. A guide to set color and tint when you don't know where to start. They have limitations and the final judge of where color and tint should be set on your TV is by looking at real life material. On DVE ... there is the Jennifer/chip chart clip which most calibrators use as their real life color/tint test.

To demonstrate the limitations of the blue filters to my clients, I often pull out these two Sencore sample blue gels handed out at ISF seminars. Same lot number ... theoretically ... same markings ... but the patterns look very different through each of these.

The filters are merely a guide ... it is possible that the answers they provide are wrong.

Regards

Thank you Michael TLV. What you say makes sense. I always used the blue filter on CRTs with great results. This is the first fixed panel display I've owned so I never saw this anomaly before. Thanks for the reply.

Terry.

On the display that exhibited excessive color saturation, did all four columns in the SMPTE color bars show equal intensity? I see a slightly darker right-most column and am trying to find out if this can only be due to red push or could it be corrected out with rgb offset and gain on a user adjustable 6500K color temperature?

Greetings

A red filter can ID if you have red push.

Cuts and Gains have nothing to do with red push. Emphasis on NOTHING.

Red Push is a color decoder issue ... nothing to do with cuts and gains. These are grayscale controls.

The answer is still the same as was given to you in your other post.

Regards

So a darker column, when the SMPTE color bars are viewed through the blue filter, must imply some sort of color decoder error (even if it isn't red push)? I am just trying to verify that I'll need to gain access to the service menus to correct out such a problem. Thanks for the information.

Oh, one other question. Assuming that the problem is red push, what is the correct protocol for correcting it? Would the following approach work with the blue filter...

1) adjust the red push slightly until the darker SMPTE color bar column equalized slightly with three other columns
2) repeat the normal color/tint adjustments
3) repeat step 1 through 3 until all four columns and the subsections of the color bars are all of equal intensity.

Greetings

The way to deal with red push when the color decoder access is not available is to visually lower color saturation until the reds no longer look like they are glowing to you.

There is no more science to it. The blue filter does not help you fix red push. Only a red filter or red color isolation can identify the problem ... and the exact amount to fix. This would be with the red saturation and red tint controls ... usually located in the service menu if you are lucky ... or completely locked out.

regards

Terry
I found the same thing after calibration with DVE. Color ends up at 44---WAY too enhanced for natural skin tones and such. I backed all the way down to 30 after viewing about 11 different movies to get it in there just right. I don't like alot of contrast or over-done color; I like my set to look natural.

I should note that I see the same effect on a high-end Panasonic 27 inch set. I don't recall exactly which column was darker there but I think it was the right-most as well. I'll check that again tonight.

I'm not an expert , but I had heard it stated that the filters don't work accurately if the primaries are not per spec. On the Pioneer '70 plasmas I've been noticing that the green is noticably off from the standard.

Greetings

Correct ... filters are designed for CRT primaries ...

They are a tool ... but not the final answer.

Regards

I checked my Panasonic again. The same rightmost column is darker but only by a very minor amount. One other question...I don't actually sense the reds as being glowing as much as the bright pinks seem glowing (at 6500K at least). Does this correspond with a red push problem?

Wow! This is a good discussion of this subject. The Pioneer PDP-5070HD does not have any adjustments for the color decoder according to my ISF calibrator. He went through all the panel menus in the service menu & the only color adjustments are Primary brightness & Primary contrast. I have the same problem with my green color as noted in the CNet review. On a chromaticity chart the X for the the green color is an inch outside the triangle. The coordinates for green before & after ISF calibration are .209/.643. I don't think any adjustments in the service menu will change that. My grayscale RGB Level Tracking is actually +2/-2 from 20 percent IRE to 100 percent IRE. My color balance according to the CalMAN graph is 101 percent red, 99 percent green & 101 percent blue. The gamma curve has a significant bump at 80 IRE. The curve is kind of in the form of an S. It deviates from the curve from 40 percent IRE to 100 percent IRE. I think on the CalMAN chart it refers to the chart in terms of percent stimulation versus luminance. I don't have any other filters other than blue to check the decoder. I did fine tune the grayscale adjustments after the ISF tech left to sit the coordinated color temperature at exactly D6500. Took about 5 runs to get it as close as it could be with RGB level tracking within +/- 2 percent. It didn't make any difference to the color intensity adjustment with the blue filter. The picture on this display is breathtaking. I'm leaving the calibration as is. I'm very pleased with the picture quality. Thanks to everyone for participating in this discussion.

Terry.

I just thought I'd add the rest of the 5070HD color coordinates according to the SMPTE-C Chromaticity Chart. Red .643/.319, Blue .152/.053, White .311/.327. These were measured after final calibration of display. All I know is the more I learn the less I know.

Terry.

I've been googling this a bit tonight and I am getting the distinct impression that the rgb offset and gain controls on the Olevia 9200K and 6500K User color temperature settings are userland versions of the service menu controls coupled with a given color temperature setting. For example, if you look at the review of the Olevia LT30HV...

http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/syntaxolevialt30hvp2.php

...the reviewer utilized the same controls to correct the red push in the display. Likewise, here on this forum I found the following thread discussing correction of a green push in a display...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=717515

using controls in a service menu which sound exactly the same as what one has in the 9200K and 6500K User color temperature settings on the Olevia. I simply don't understand why folks here insist these controls can't do the job on an Olevia just because they are in a user accessible menu which has them tethered to a particular color temperature setting.
As soon as I get my 3M color filter kit in, I'll try using those controls and the appropriate test patterns to correct any red, green or blue push. Any clarifications on this would be most welcome.
Jack

http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/syntaxolevialt30hvp2.php

...the reviewer utilized the same controls to correct the red push in the display. Likewise, here on this forum I found the following thread discussing correction of a green push in a display...
Jack

Gene was in our ISF seminar at EH EXPO in Orlando last Spring. Extremely personable, very knowledgeable, and contributed greatly to the seminar.

If the "Gain" controls (coupled with Offsets) are conventional in their applications, this would not be the methodology to correct for Red Push.
As Michael Chen has exhaustively pointed out, White Balance controls and Color Decoder controls (if present) have NO CORROLATION to one another as to their applied corrections. Reducing the "Gain" control, if it is indeed the 'gas pedal / brake' for White Balance: Red on this set will have some affect on the appearance of Red as far as push goes, as reducing it has the net effect of de-saturating Red intensity (as would lowering "Amplitude" or Saturation - the Color Control - which is the Color Decoder on a display). What it is really doing, if indeed the Red Gain for White Balance, is lowering the overall percentage of Red in the Red / Green / Blue matrix, thus altering the Color Temperature of the Gray scale.
What you would seek to do, if the set had Color Decoder control, would be to reduce the Saturation of Red (eliminate the "Push" or intensity of it) WITHOUT changing the proportion of it as compared to Green and Blue in the White Balance matrix.
An example of changing Red intensity (Color Decoder) would be altering the steep, deep Red of a Ferrari, to a lighter, dusty Rose color.
By reducing Red Gain, as it applies to White Balance, would be to change the Hue or Phase of that Red, to a more Reddish-Green, or to a Reddish-Blue, by way of changing the axis' one way or another.

Often in the past, I have been called in to find a real mess when a "technician" for a chain, would respond to a complaint about Red Push on a CRT set, such as a Mitsubishi RPTV, or on a Sony Direct View. The 'chain store' tech, complying to a customer's complaint about "too Red of a face" (Mits) or too Orange of skin tones (Sony Direct View) would arrive on scene, and in the case of the Mits (or Pioneer Elites) come to the "rescue" by removing the grille, taking of the front panel access, and decreasing the Screen control on the Focus block, proclaiming the problem as cured. A quick 5 minute fix, eh?
Later that evening, when the client sets about to watching a few of his reference DVDs, his horror grows as he notices that car tires are not Black, and when watching hockey, the ice is not White. The only "plus", oh so minor that it shall be, is that faces are no longer "glowing" Red.
That is a real hose-job for the end user, as reducing plate voltage to the CRTs (unless the set has auto kine bias) will drastically shorten the lifespan of them.
Screen controls, while they exhibit an alteration to White Balance, are not the same thing as making Cut / Drive corrections, just as changing these parameters are not the panacea for Color Decoder issues.

And now, with wider Color Space selections from some manufacturers, as well as Primary and Secondary adjustments (I suppose they the manufacturers feel that this is something that can be set by "eye") both on displays and even on DVD players...well, its a wonder that anything out there can look watchable after these controls are altered.

One last note: The gel filters in the calibration discs were intended to be used on direct view crt phosphors (rear and front projection sets often had color coated or color corrected lenses, which did not match the filters at all). Those in AVS / DVE were matched to SMPTE C phosphors, as Joe felt many initial purchasers of the disc/s would be members of the production community, who could best benefit, as those monitors (if not auto-calibrating) had the rigorous power supplies and if not C phosphor sets would have P-22 phosphors, making for semi-quick, accurate changes.
The only way that the filters in the cal discs could be used for DLP, for example, would be if the filter panels in the color wheel (presuming it is a 1 chip RPTV) were made of the same gel material. And, as Joe Kane mentioned in our CEDIA seminar (presented by Lion A/V) even filter panels can change within a model during production run changes. See Michael TLV's comment above with regard to two (seemingly) identical filters that we hand out in ISF seminars.
They are tools to get you somewhat in the ballpark.
The best answer is for manufacturers (like Runco) that offer at the very least, Blue only modes in all products, so that Amplitude and Phase can be set correctly. When manufacturers put total color isolation control into a display, with matching parameter adjustment, in the USER menu, we might just be making some progress!

Coyotes,
Thanks for the clarifications. A couple more questions though. I think I understand your comments about the misuse of the rgb gain and offset controls to remove red push. What happens however if the default 6500K color temperature settings on the display are already incorrectly set? Couldn't one end up with something that effectively looked like a red push in the color decoder. Is there a strategy to be able to be certain that the 6500K color temperature settings aren't at a wildly incorrect default setting for red gain? I am assuming I may need to use a Spyder2 though to see if the color temperatures on grayscale are massively incorrect. Secondly, regarding the need for gel filters specifically designed for non-CRT displays, what do you think of the ones 3M is offering for LCD calibration...

http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/VikuitiBrand/ConsumerHome/Consumer/VikuitiExtras/LCD-TV-Setup-Guide-DVD/

Do you think these Vikuiti™ films will really be more appropriate than those in DVE for LCD calibration? Lastly, I am trying to get Olevia tech support to help me gain access to the red push control on the Olevia 327v. Hopefully I can manage to pry that information out from them.
Jack
ps The one thing I do like about how Olevia has their controls set up is that one can certain play with the rgb gain and offset in the 6500K User and 9200K User color temperature settings without having to go into the service menu. So if you don't like the results, no harm is done
since the stock 6500K, 9200K and native settings are available. Actually, that is an additional question. Is this 'native' setting an Olevia-only creation or do any other vendors offer a color temperature setting of that type?

Jack, I have a Panasonic PT-AE900U projector. Like yours I have RGB controls in the user menu as well as low, medium, high gamma controls. I did a good color calibration on that display & had no problem using the blue filter to adjust color intensity. I'm just surprised that the Plasma was out by such a large amount. +12 using the filter & -2 for actual viewing. I know other posters have said to set it by eye & that's what I did with the Plasma. I still wouldn't mind having a filter that gives me an accurate color intensity adjustment. The GetGray calibration DVD I used was primarly created for fixed pixel digital displays & not for CRTs.

Terry.

Greetings

Native color temp is the master temp. Everything else is usually based on fixed offsets to whatever the native one is.

Samsung LCD sets like to use Cool1 as their main color temp. Everything else is an offset.

Regards

My understanding is that the native color temperature is the most popular one for the Olevia displays. However I find the colors to be rather cold compared to the 6500K color temperature. One other question. Assuming one has the red push corrected out of the color decoder, what exactly does the rgb offset for color temperature correction? The Olevia manual only describes the rgb color temperature controls as...

Red Gain- to increase red tones in the picture
Blue Gain - to increase blue tones in the picture
Green Gain - to increase green tones in the picture
Red Offset- to decrease red tones in the picture
Blue Offset - to decrease blue tones in the picture
Green Offset - to decrease green tones in the picture

My own layman's interpretation of those controls was that the gain controls would modulate the intensity of the red tones in the picture but that the offsets would act to correct deviations in the purity of each primary color. Just a guess.

Greetings

YOu need professional instrumentation to do this right.

If the grayscale is wrong ... the color palette is wrong no matter what.

The controls are there for people that know how to use them. Read up on grayscale calibration.

Regards

One last note: The gel filters in the calibration discs were intended to be used on direct view crt phosphors (rear and front projection sets often had color coated or color corrected lenses, which did not match the filters at all).

The only way that the filters in the cal discs could be used for DLP, for example, would be if the filter panels in the color wheel (presuming it is a 1 chip RPTV) were made of the same gel material.

Does all this apply to LCD and Plasma sets too ?

Is the Spyder2 (when used with the proper software) sufficient to do the grayscale (since it only comes with a blue filter installed)? A professional calibration would be nice but insane on a set that only cost $400.

Greetings

Remember ... even a home made optical comparator can be used and it costs less than $70 to build.

If the program gives you x,y, Y .. then you are good to go. (assumes one understands what that means though.)

regards

Thanks. I was just wondering if the fact that the Spyder2 only has a blue filter would present any issues compared to using higher end equipment to measure grayscale.

Does all this apply to LCD and Plasma sets too ?

Greetings marann,

Yes it does.

While Plasma is a phosphor-based display, the phosphor is not SMPTE C (C indicates Conrac, the monitor manufacturer in the 80's that initially complied with Joe Kane and SMPTE to make a monitor to spec, which became the standard).

LCD would have to corrolate the collomater lens and substrate panels to match the gels in order to perfectly align.

Again, they are tools, the only tools that we have. Better than a stick in the eye, though!

Coyotes,
Thanks for the clarifications. A couple more questions though. I think I understand your comments about the misuse of the rgb gain and offset controls to remove red push. What happens however if the default 6500K color temperature settings on the display are already incorrectly set? Couldn't one end up with something that effectively looked like a red push in the color decoder.

[NOTE: CAPS FOR DIFFERENTIATION, NOT EMPHASIS]
I UNDERSTAND WHY YOU MIGHT MAKE THAT CONCLUSION, HOWEVER I MUST REITERATE THAT WHEN RED GRAYSCALE BALANCE IS UPSET, IT DOES NOT EXHIBIT THE SAME CHARACTERISTICS AS COLOR DECODER ERROR. MISAPPORTIONED RED x-y COORDINATES DO NOT MAKE THE DEGREE OF RED (WHICH COULD BE THOUGHT OF AS A "Z" AXIS) MORE INTENSE, WHICH IS WHAT THE COLOR DECODER ERROR IS DOING. MALADJUSTED RED WITHIN THE GRAYSCALE IS GOING TO NOT AS MUCH ALTER RED (WITHIN REASON) AS IT IS GOING TO INFLUENCE GREEN AND BLUE. TOO LITTLE RED IN THE RECIPE IS GOING TO MAKE BLUE APPEAR MORE MAGENTA, WHILE TOO MUCH RED IS GOING TO MAKE GREEN APPEAR MORE "GATORADE-ISH" RATHER THAN SHAMROCK.

COLOR DECODER ERROR ACTUALLY TAKES ALL HUES AROUND THE RED KNEE POINT, AND "PUSHES" THEM TO RESEMBLE THAT POINT. THINK OF IT LIKE THIS: YOU GO TO HOME DEPOT SHOPPING FOR RED PAINT FOR A ROOM (NOT SURE WHY, BUT STAY WITH ME!). YOU KNOW THOSE CHIP CHARTS THAT THE PAINT COMPANIES HAVE. THEY HAVE A "KNEE POINT" COLOR, SAY THE ONE IN THE MIDDLE - #4 OUT OF 7. 1, 2, AND 3 ARE LIGHTER SHADES (WITH FOO-FOO NAMES) WHILE 5, 6 AND 7 ARE BOLDER, MORE VIBRANT WITH NAMES LIKE VIKING SHIPS.
AN ERRANT DECODER, WOULD TAKE SHADES 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, & 7 AND ALTER THEIR "TEXTURE" SO THAT THEY MORE RESEMBLED #4. CONSEQUENTLY, WHEN SHOT BY THE CAMERA UNDER LIGHT, THEY LOSE THEIR INDIVIDUAL "INDENTITIES" AND FROM SOMEWHAT OF A DISTANCE, LOOK ALL TOO SIMILAR TO BE THAT DISTINCTIVE (MUCH LIKE TOO MUCH CONTRAST OR WHITE LEVEL WOULD PUSH 80, 90, AND 100 IRE IN VERTICAL STAIRSTEP PATTERN TO LOOK IDENTICAL).
DECODER ERROR "SMOOSHES" SIMILAR HUES TO LOOK IDENTICAL.
RED GAIN / DRIVE OR WHAT-HAVE-YOU ERRORS SKEW RED TOWARD RED-GREEN OR RED-BLUE, NOT VARY DEGREES OF THE SAME COLOR.

Is there a strategy to be able to be certain that the 6500K color temperature settings aren't at a wildly incorrect default setting for red gain? I am assuming I may need to use a Spyder2 though to see if the color temperatures on grayscale are massively incorrect.

YES...COLORIMETERS


Secondly, regarding the need for gel filters specifically designed for non-CRT displays, what do you think of the ones 3M is offering for LCD calibration...
http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/VikuitiBrand/ConsumerHome/Consumer/VikuitiExtras/LCD-TV-Setup-Guide-DVD/

THAT HAS A TOTALLY DIFFERENT INTENT / APPLICATION. IT IS TO REFLECT LIGHT AWAY FROM AN LCD PANEL SO THAT WHAT IS OBSERVABLE IN DIFFERENT LIGHTING CONDITIONS HAS MORE APPARENT CONTRAST.
THE FILTER SETS FROM THE CAL DISCS ARE TO FILTER OUT THE OTHER COLORS THAN THE ONE YOU WISH TO SEE, WITHOUT SKEWING THE RESULT OF THE OBSERVABLE COLOR. THAT'S THE PROBLEM: WHEN YOU WANT TO MAKE SURE AMPLITUDE AND PHASE ARE MATCHING ON A SMPTE BAR PATTERN, AND THE FILTER DOESN'T MATCH THE SPECTRUM OF LIGHT THAT IS OUTPUT, IT CAN NOT ACCURATELY GIVE YOU THE INFORMATION TO PROPERLY ADJUST YOUR PARAMETERS.

Do you think these Vikuiti™ films will really be more appropriate than those in DVE for LCD calibration?

AS MENTIONED, THEY AREN'T INTERCHANGEABLE PER THEIR APPLICATIONS.

Lastly, I am trying to get Olevia tech support to help me gain access to the red push control on the Olevia 327v. Hopefully I can manage to pry that information out from them.

GOOD LUCK WITH THAT!

Jack
ps The one thing I do like about how Olevia has their controls set up is that one can certain play with the rgb gain and offset in the 6500K User and 9200K User color temperature settings without having to go into the service menu. So if you don't like the results, no harm is done since the stock 6500K, 9200K and native settings are available. Actually, that is an additional question. Is this 'native' setting an Olevia-only creation or do any other vendors offer a color temperature setting of that type?

A LAST DYING WISH WOULD BE THAT EVERY VENDOR JUST FOLLOWED THE RULES OF THE SYSTEM!

Thanks. I was just wondering if the fact that the Spyder2 only has a blue filter would present any issues compared to using higher end equipment to measure grayscale.

Even if Green and Red were included, if you didn't have parameters to adjust, all they would do is show you errors that would just make you mad!

Since I can pick up a Spyder2 Express for $55, it seems like a small price to pay to be able to quantitate what is going on with the color temperatures. Specifically, on my Olevia 327v I don't have any issues with the picture on HD channels, however I have noticed that a few of the SD channels (converted to 1080i by a SA 3250HD cable box) show odd color behavior. The flesh tones look reasonable (on MSNBC for example) but if there is a lot of solid color computer graphics on the screen along side them, the bright colors seem a overly intense. I don't believe the Olevia 327v has any controls for turning off any auto-color functions. However, I figured using a Spyder2 with the available open-source programs might give me a clue as to the origin of the problem. I assume that the SA 3250HD shouldn't be messing with the colors when it upconverts from the SD to 1080i.

Greetings marann,

Yes it does.

While Plasma is a phosphor-based display, the phosphor is not SMPTE C (C indicates Conrac, the monitor manufacturer in the 80's that initially complied with Joe Kane and SMPTE to make a monitor to spec, which became the standard).

LCD would have to corrolate the collomater lens and substrate panels to match the gels in order to perfectly align.

Again, they are tools, the only tools that we have. Better than a stick in the eye, though!

Thank you sir.
Much appreciated.

I assume that the SA 3250HD shouldn't be messing with the colors when it upconverts from the SD to 1080i.

Oh....indeed it is. It is taking programing mastered in NTSC @ ITU-R BT 601 and telling the Olevia it should be displayed in ATSC ITU-R-BT-709. Different Color Space and different pedestal for Black (601= 7.5IRE, 709="0")

One suggestion would be to connect S Video into your Olevia for all NTSC channels, and Component or better for HD.

Thank you sir.
Much appreciated.

You are very welcome.

Coyotes,
Yikes. So one would have to switch source's constantly depending upon which broadcast (SD or HD) you were receiving. Not exactly technological progress in my book. So I am correct to assume that this issue of different color spaces for different broadcast formats would plague even the higher end units (assuming that they were connected to a cable/satellite box with a fixed 1080i output)? I would find it hard to believe that any color correction circuitry could detect whether the input had been upconverted from 480i to 1080i on another box and adjust accordingly. The Olevia does have an option to set the picture mode input to Interlaced DVD for 480i/480p or High Def for 720p or 1080i however it is unclear from their manual if they tweak the color settings for each of those picture input modes.
This could explain one thing I have thought I have noticed. When viewing the HBO HD channel I had gotten the impression that those shows presented in true HD had somewhat different coloration than those non-HD shows presented in the inset box with a surrounding black frame. Could this be the same issue and HBO is too lazy to color match the SD shows like Extras which they rebroadcast over their HD channel?
Lastly, I have been calibrating my HD set with the component feed from a DVD player using DVE. Is there a particular direction for color and brightness (black level) that I am likely overcorrecting the display for the HD picture by using a SD DVD player? I assume the best I can to is halve the difference between the best HD and SD color settings so that the set is neither optimal but not that bad either.
Jack
ps This whole discussion makes me think that things like AppleTV might eventually have a shot. What they need is a controlling authority to force the content providers to match some constant color standard .

Coyotes,
Yikes. So one would have to switch source's constantly depending upon which broadcast (SD or HD) you were receiving. Not exactly technological progress in my book. So I am correct to assume that this issue of different color spaces for different broadcast formats would plague even the higher end units (assuming that they were connected to a cable/satellite box with a fixed 1080i output)? I would find it hard to believe that any color correction circuitry could detect whether the input had been upconverted from 480i to 1080i on another box and adjust accordingly. The Olevia does have an option to set the picture mode input to Interlaced DVD for 480i/480p or High Def for 720p or 1080i however it is unclear from their manual if they tweak the color settings for each of those picture input modes.
This could explain one thing I have thought I have noticed. When viewing the HBO HD channel I had gotten the impression that those shows presented in true HD had somewhat different coloration than those non-HD shows presented in the inset box with a surrounding black frame. Could this be the same issue and HBO is too lazy to color match the SD shows like Extras which they rebroadcast over their HD channel?
Lastly, I have been calibrating my HD set with the component feed from a DVD player using DVE. Is there a particular direction for color and brightness (black level) that I am likely overcorrecting the display for the HD picture by using a SD DVD player? I assume the best I can to is halve the difference between the best HD and SD color settings so that the set is neither optimal but not that bad either.
Jack
ps This whole discussion makes me think that things like AppleTV might eventually have a shot. What they need is a controlling authority to force the content providers to match some constant color standard .

It isn't that the content providers need to do anything, it's merely the fact that they are passing on content that was mastered in one or the other (or it might even be CNN that is passing on breaking news footage that originated in EBU, and all they did was transcode).
There is no flag in any legacy material that would tell a device what Color Space to reproduce in. Nothing like Yves Faroudja's 2:3 pull down detection.

PITA? Yes, you bet. The integration firm that I am partners with set up separate boxs for separate formats. The icons on the AMX control switching and routing.
It's transparent to the client, drives the programmers crazy, but portrays the images correctly. No more constant 1080i out, with legacy programming having crushed Blacks and funny looking skin tones. For now, it's the only way to do it.

Get creative and design something that detects format and changes processor response automatically, and you might be building on the lot next door to Mr. Gates!

My old rear projector tv used to allow me to select which color space even if the input is 1080i. but my lcd just assume it's hd when it's 1080i or 720p but unfortunately sd material that is upconverted by the cable company or my dvd player remains in the SD color space. The most obvious color that get screw up is the green where the intensity of the color is attenuated by 20%. All the primary is obviously in the wrong position of the CIE diagram but the color difference may or may not be obvious.
http://www.sigmadesigns.com/public/Support/chromaticity.html

This stuff really should be added to the calibration faq here as a new entry! I am still a bit confused on what this implies for reference patterns like the SMPTE color bars. I assume their actual true colors are the same but that the calibrations required for playback will only be good for the broadcast mode used to encode them. So DVE from a DVD is only good for calibrating the reproduction of SD channels whereas the HD channels would require an HD calibration DVD and player or the use of test patterns broadcast on one of the HD channels (like HDnet). Is this a correct reading of the situation? I am tempted to try to calibrate my set off of the test patterns on HDnet and then take the average values for color, tint, brightness and contrast between the SD and HD calibrations in an attempt to obtain a set of average settings. Hopefully those would look reasonable on both SD and HD.

One last question. My understanding of the color/tint adjustments using the SMPTE color bars and patches from the Video Essentials DVD was that the important adjustment was to make sure that the bars and patch below for each pair of columns matched. However, I have noticed a couple sites that seem to describe the important process as matching the two matching bars rather than their patches below. If one performs the calibration and has to leave something unmatched is it better to have the two bars equal or the bar and its corresponding patch equal in intensity when viewed through the blue filter?