Just wanted to get some input regarding pros and cons of both software packages.
Just by quick research, Datacolor seems to have the edge but just wanted to get other people's thoughts.

It certainly has the edge on price, though the current Spyder2 probe they bundle with CF 6 is really not suitable for serious work.

Greetings

The Spyder probe works fine with all CRT based technologies ... fine with plasma and LCD flat panel technologies. Similar performance to $12K gear and up ... here.

The advantage of the CF program is that it can grow with the calibrator. The program may come with an entry level probe, but it is compatible with many more advanced probes. A hardware upgrade path...

Regards

Progressive Labs has a new pod, too. I'd shop there as well if looking. Also check Accucal. And Bills Calman.

See the appendix of the GetGray DVD manual for a list of websites.

Just wanted to get some input regarding pros and cons of both software packages.
Just by quick research, Datacolor seems to have the edge but just wanted to get other people's thoughts.

I assume you're talking about Colorfacts vs. Sencore, not one of the lesser DataColor packages (as that wouldn't be much of a fair comparison).

First let me say that I own both. Colorfacts Pro 6.0, Sencore CP5000 and Sencore CP6500.

Colorfacts: Pros
The Colorfacts user interface is by far the easiest to use. Simply put, it's outright beautiful.
Ways to look at the data from many different perspectives.
Wizards you can use to calibrate, and make your job more productive.
Macro scripting language, in case you want to write your own custom calibration code.
C3 Remote interface -- allows auto-calibration of C3-compatible HDTV's.
Hardware support for many other sensors, including high-end sensors.
Able to grow with the user. As the user becomes more comfortable with the program, he can use some of its more advanced features without needing a PhD.
Hardware support for multiple signal generators.


Colorfacts: Cons:
Mine shipped with a "toy" sensor (Spyder-2), which you might as well throw away and buy a new one, because mine was completely useless. When taking readings below IRE-30, the consecutive values would vary as much as 30% or more; sometimes oscilate back and forth. So on top of the $2500, you'll need to add at least another $250-1000 depending on how exotic you want to get. In all fairness, I've been told that they have tightened the quality control on these sensors, and are now shipping better ones (same ones, just screened a little better). I have a replacement on the way...as we speak.
Very little to offer in adjusting gamma. Gives gamma readings, but not much help to adjust it. I understand Colorfacts 7.0 will solve this problem.
I question the accuracy of some of the computations. I found some cases where the user interface displayed what would clearly be incorrect results (BLUE stuck at 255 even when IRE changes from 10, 20, 30, etc.).
If you need customer support, and the office help can't solve it for you, you are likely in for the biggest nightmare of your life. The girl in the office is quite helpful, and can solve many problems. But if you run into something she can't solve, the customer/technical support you receive may be a nightmare. I'm not the only person with these experiences...this seems to be a very common complaint. This thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=791853), would be a good one to read for a little more details, and some insight how they might handle your situation.
Even though they have a macro interface, the results aren't exactly reliable. They document the macro interface, but the results don't seem to match the documentation, and DataColor is not willing to help solve any of those problems -- even though they make claims to the contrary.
HW support for signal generators isn't seamless. Requires the user to input a "delay" field for proper operation. This should be automated, as it is with Sencore CP6500 software.


Sencore CP5000/CP6500 Pros
Seems to work very well without any problems.
Ships with two sensors, and they both seem to work reliably. They aren't high end sensors, but at least they work. Before DataColor bought Colorfacts, I read on one of these threads that these were the sensors Colorfacts used to ship. The consensus seems to be that people were happy with them.
I really like the white calibration screen of the CP6500. It has a real unique way of zeroing in on a perfect D6500. If you want greater resolution, you can zoom in. I actually love this part of it.
Has C3 Remote built in, in addition to support from non-C3 HDTV's that have similar auto-calibration functions (like Runco). I understand Colorfacts 7.0 will have add much more extensive automated calibration support.
CP5000 has a very nice graphing feature to compare before/after results and map/track gamma adjustments.
Customer support has been TOP notch (above and beyond the call of duty). Since these guys have a complete line of professional calibration gear (hardware/software), the support seems to be a well oiled machine, and very responsive to any question or problem you may have. Not only bent over backwards to solve my problems, but sent me loaner gear after my dogs chewed up my sensors.
CP6500 software is well integrated into other Sencore hardware (signal generators, etc.).
CP6500 software is well-aware of sencore signal generators, and describes how to use the calibraton patterns. This is much like a wizard, and in some ways is even nicer.


Sencore CP5000/CP6500 Cons
I wish Sencore would take the best features from CP5000 software and CP6500 software and unify them. No reason I should have to use both.
No macro programming interface.
Not nearly as user-friendly as Colorfacts. Some calibration guys would actually prefer fewer bells/whistles; and if that's you're preference, then this software is great.
Can't calibrate grayscale without holding at least one color constant ("locking" the color). Colorfacts can do this. In reality, this isn't much of a problem, but it would be a nice feature to have.
Not sure if it's compatible with a wide range of sensors. Possibly not compatible at all -- this isn't something they advertise.
What you see, is what you get. Doesn't really grow with the user and Colorfacts does.


Overall, Colorfacts looks nice and works good enough -- so long as you don't need any type of technical support. It has some very nice features. The biggest problem, is that they don't seem to think that customers who spend $2500 for their software need to get their questions answered in a timely manner -- if ever at all (I'm not kidding).

Sencore doesn't have all of the bells and whistles, but at least it works. Customer support is absolutely fantastic and is much more pleasant to work with than anybody at DataColor (except the office girl herself -- she's extremely nice to work with).

There's probably a few more pros and cons I could add to each one -- just to balance it out a bit. I'll look at the software later tonight and possibly update the list if I think of something relevant.

Got a question for you Michael. I've heard if you buy Colorfacts from you guys (LionAV) that you guys are the Level 3 support for the product. What if you don't buy from LionAV, where does the Level 3 support come from? Datacolor themselves or contracted to another Datacolor dealer?

Greetings
The advantage of the CF program is that it can grow with the calibrator. The program may come with an entry level probe, but it is compatible with many more advanced probes. A hardware upgrade path...
Regards

I strongly agree with both of these points. You might as well add both of these to my list of Colorfacts Pros.

Not sure if Sencore has the same HW upgrade path, or is compatible with any other sensors.

Thanks for your response Pencil. Very good information.
Am in the middle of making a decision. I sent a quote request to Sencore a couple weeks ago with no response. I finally decided to give them a call. Very customer oriented. Anyway, in the midst of my wait I purchased colorfacts 6.0. I ended up buying from a colorfacts dealer (other than LIONAV) mainly because of the cost savings (and cash is pretty tight this time of year) which was about a $300 savings. Ofcourse now I may be having a little buyers remorse not knowing where my level 3 support will be coming from (since I didn't purchase from LionAV). I'm hoping I won't need it, but such is not my luck.

Anyway, back to my story. So since purchasing my colorfacts software the Sencore folks have been trying to woo me in their direction (ofcourse). So, just wanted to get a little feedback on both packages. One plus for sencore also is their financing options. Seems to have pretty good rates, terms, etc. This all plays a part of things.
I appreciate all the feedback.

Thanks for your response Pencil. Very good information.
Am in the middle of making a decision. I sent a quote request to Sencore a couple weeks ago with no response. I finally decided to give them a call. Very customer oriented. Anyway, in the midst of my wait I purchased colorfacts 6.0. I ended up buying from a colorfacts dealer (other than LIONAV) mainly because of the cost savings (and cash is pretty tight this time of year) which was about a $300 savings. Ofcourse now I may be having a little buyers remorse not knowing where my level 3 support will be coming from (since I didn't purchase from LionAV). I'm hoping I won't need it, but such is not my luck.

Anyway, back to my story. So since purchasing my colorfacts software the Sencore folks have been trying to woo me in their direction (ofcourse). So, just wanted to get a little feedback on both packages. One plus for sencore also is their financing options. Seems to have pretty good rates, terms, etc. This all plays a part of things.
I appreciate all the feedback.

I never planned on buying the Sencore software at all, but the support I was getting from Datacolor was so bad, that I vowed to buy something else, even if it meant I had to quit using the easier program. I'd be happy to describe the problems in a private message, as I don't want to pollute this thread with my gripes. Nor do I want to sound like I have a vendetta against them -- when I'm actually planning to upgrade to CF 7.0 when it comes out.

hi guys

Level 3 technical support is proved by a password protected forum only for original CF 7.0 users (or upgraded users). LionAV is running the forum and will provide answers within 24 hours (within our ability to provide a reasonable answer).

If a person buys their gear from LionAV you are also welcome to personally call me (or another LionAV associate) for personalized assistance. As a retailer we stand behind the gear we sell and try to offer the best possible support. (24x7x365). We know what it is like to be in the field and not have something go as planned. a 300 price savings wont mean much if you are ever in such a circumstance (and I am willing to bet almost every calibrator has been in one).

regards

Gregg

The Spyder probe works fine with all CRT based technologies ... fine with plasma and LCD flat panel technologies. Similar performance to $12K gear and up ... here. That's not what I see.

For example, a Sony KV-36XBR450 CRT

Spyder2

http://home.comcast.net/~tlhuffman/calman/sony_spyder2_CIE.jpg

GretagMacbeth i1Pro

http://home.comcast.net/~tlhuffman/calman/sony_i1pro_CIE.jpg

the spyder sensore works very well for white balance applications on the devices that Michael previously listed. Any tristimulus type of probe will not do very well with primary / secondary measurements.

Greetings

As Gregg mentioned ... if you get the program with the support ... we (Lion AV) will help you regardless of whether you bought it direct from us or from Datacolor proper.

The bonus is if you bought it from us... you can call us by phone ... rather than having to wait for the email response. Although many that know me know that I'm available by phone most of the time anyway for lots of stuff ...

(So if you upgrade from 6.0 to 7.0 ... the support comes with that upgrade for 1 year ...)

Regards

Thx for the info. I am planning on upgrading to CF 7.0 as soon as it's released, so I guess I'll be okay with just the forum support. I know, you guys can kick me. That's what I get for trying to save a few $$$$s. Anyway, the good news is that i'm a datacolor customer now. :D Vers 7.0 is supposed to be out any day now isn't it?

One more question Michael. You mentioned 'if you get the program with the support...'. I'm assuming that I have. I wasn't aware you were able to get the program without support. I purchased the complete Colorfacts Pro 6.0 (CFH100). Can you clarify this for me. Thx.

Also, in hindsite now I know I should have purchased from you guys. Was actually in need of a complete package with the 2 day training and accupel signal generator, but as you can understand the rush was on for me to purchase 6.0 before 7.0 is released. Anyway, now that the software is purchased what's left is for me to sign up for your training class and pick up an accupel.



Greetings

As Gregg mentioned ... if you get the program with the support ... we (Lion AV) will help you regardless of whether you bought it direct from us or from Datacolor proper.

The bonus is if you bought it from us... you can call us by phone ... rather than having to wait for the email response. Although many that know me know that I'm available by phone most of the time anyway for lots of stuff ...

(So if you upgrade from 6.0 to 7.0 ... the support comes with that upgrade for 1 year ...)

Regards

6.0 does not come with the LionAV support forum offering. You will need to upgrade to 7.0 to get this offering. The support forum is an integrated part of 7.0 and is not an alacarte option.

Phone support is a LionAV direct retailer option that is only open to persons that purchase from LionAV.

How does the upgrade path work? Do I get the upgrade from Datacolor themselves, you guys or from the seller I purchased from?

Greetings

When you upgrade to 7.0 (Through Datacolor) ... you get the support. Part of the package. (Since you have to pay for the said upgrade anyway ... something nominal from what I hear ... )

Hope you have the Dongle thing... as that is required.

Contact Gregg directly at the site for ISF training ...

Regards

Cool Deal. Thx for all the info Michael. Looking foward to some product training. Also, one more question (newb). Is the Eye beamer (HEU101) the same as the Eye-One Pro + some software package (that we really don't care about)??

Greetings

I don't have an answer for you there. We've been trying to figure that one out ourselves. Eyebeamer ... Eyebeamer Pro ... the shape seems to be the same and from the web site...it looks like it is just speed in the new probe ...

Will have to just call the Gretag people and ask them point blank.

Regards

Any tristimulus type of probe will not do very well with primary / secondary measurements.The EyeOne Display 2 seems to do quite well on a wide variety of displays. In fact, I've yet to find a display type from which the Display 2 measures significantly different from the i1Pro.

hi guys

Level 3 technical support is proved by a password protected forum only for original CF 7.0 users (or upgraded users). LionAV is running the forum and will provide answers within 24 hours (within our ability to provide a reasonable answer).

Gregg

What happens if you can't provide an answer...then what? Will you turn the questions over to DataColor -- who's past record has demonstrated a complete lack of willingness to help?

Don't take this the wrong way. I'm asking because myself and others have had horrible experiences with DataColor. I commend the idea to create a support forum; but I think we all have a right to know what to expect...should anybody at LionAV and your forum not be able to help. Are we back to the same crappy treatment from DataColor at that point?

hi guys

I dont in any way agree with your comments. Level III web based support is FREE for CF7.0 users. It is for calibration related questions and service code / service menu manipulation / access questions.

Regards
Gregg

hi guys

I dont in any way agree with your comments. Level III web based support is FREE for CF7.0 users. It is for calibration related questions and service code / service menu manipulation / access questions.

Regards
Gregg

I think this response raises more questions than it answers. Maybe understanding the following will help me, and everybody else contemplating a purchase or upgrade.


What is Level-1 support? Where does it come from? What types of questions can we expect to be answered?
What is Level-2 support? Where does it come from? What types of questions can we expect to be answered?
What is Level-3 support? Where does it come from? What types of questions can we expect to be answered?
Is Level-3 the lowest type of support, or the highest, or something completely different? (Your response above would seem to indicate that it's not support for the product at all -- but something completely different.)
Specifically, what types of questions may be asked at the CF7.0 forum and expected to be answered? There's no need to create a mirror of the AVS Forum -- just so people can talk about how to calibrate a TV...but limited to using CF7.0. Let the AVS Forum do that, it can do a much better job, and everybody can benefit.
Is there anything beyond Level-3 support? Who provides it? What types of questions can we expect to be answered?
What happens if you can't answer a question or solve a problem with the software? Then what?

Level-3 support is only for calibration support not software/hardware support?

How is that different from ISF forum or from this forum? It sounds like LionAV was designed to support the newbie calibrator that bought ColorFacts - but has no clue how to calibrate yet.

So if my sensor/generator stops working do I post to the Lion AV forum - as that is not a calibration question - it is a hardware/software support need specific to ColorFacts. If I have idea for upgrades where does that post go? If a wizard or instrument seems to be wrong data where do I post it?

Milori canceled their support forum when they got bought out - but we need that same kind of forum for users of their hardware/software. Fine for LionAV to have the calibrator forum to weed out those who ask newbie calibration questions - but someone like myself who is a charter ColorFacts user does not need help there.

For example why is the dongle now required - I use CFPRO6.0 just fine with my license file I requested since the dongle takes up a USB port which are already filled up with the AccuPel/RS232 and Spyder2.

Greetings

Yup ... thanks

Also ... it may be a conceit, but not every CF owner or SpyderTV Pro owner comes to AVS.

Nothing like getting a calibration answer without wading through all the other stuff. We expect some will calibrate ... but they won't be enthusiasts.

Regards

BTW, any specific word on the availability of CF 7?

My understanding was the end of the month, which is, uh, now.

For example why is the dongle now required - I use CFPRO6.0 just fine with my license file I requested since the dongle takes up a USB port which are already filled up with the AccuPel/RS232 and Spyder2.

I can't get CFPRO 6.0 to recognize my Trichromat-1 sensor using my license file. It recognizes the software as being licensed, but it reports an error in detecting the sensor. Cindy at Datacoilor indicates that I need the dongle to get support for the Trichromat-1, and they are supposed to ship me a dongle.

-Steve

Greetings

Yup ... thanks

Also ... it may be a conceit, but not every CF owner or SpyderTV Pro owner comes to AVS.

Nothing like getting a calibration answer without wading through all the other stuff. We expect some will calibrate ... but they won't be enthusiasts.

Regards

It's time that we get some real answers to our questions. I'm seeing the questions pile up, followed up by your responses and opportunities to answer -- but without any real answers. You're implying that this "Level-3 technical support" is product support -- but there's a huge backtrack a few posts later. It sounds more like "Level-3 technical support" is newbie hand-holding support and involves absolutely nothing meaningful -- nor related to the product.

It's time to answer the real questions guys, not do the typical DataColor two-step.

I can't get CFPRO 6.0 to recognize my Trichromat-1 sensor using my license file. It recognizes the software as being licensed, but it reports an error in detecting the sensor. Cindy at Datacoilor indicates that I need the dongle to get support for the Trichromat-1, and they are supposed to ship me a dongle.

-Steve

I have the Spyder2 prototype that CF thinks is the Optimagery yet the driver is Spyder2. It maybe that it was not official supported as well I recall we had some back and forth to get me going again at 5.0 and 6.0 transitions. But since there is only one or two other of these sensors like this and I was not going to give it up - they made it work.

As far as the software is concerned it just needs to get the key - from the file locked to a sensor/generator or from the golden dongle that is hardware open. The disadvantage of the file is it is locked to specific hardware, advantage it frees up the USB port. Maybe the Trichomat is not serial number coded is why it would not work-dunno?

I have to agree with PencilGeek. There is a big difference between calibration support for product users and product support for calibrators. We have been waiting patiently for years since 5.0 for real upgrades while SpyderTV was worked on - and now that we have them there should be a product support forum reopened. AVS is not the place for product support - as you get trolls jumping in saying you should have downloaded the freebie spreadsheet instead - and that is if the post does not get buried in the Nth color decoder thread that week.

hi Kras.

I agree, I too have been waiting for upgrades and changes, so I am very excited about 7.0. I hope the new site / forum will assist you with your questions. Unlike yourself, most ColorFacts users, also need a huge amount of calibration support. The new site will also be to assist them.

The licencing file has been a real problem and is being replaced with a hardware dongle.

Regards

Gregg

Hi Gregg, got a question about the dongle. I know version 6.0 can run with either a licensing file or the hardware dongle, so let's assume the version of 6.0 I receive does not get a dongle, will the upgrade to 7.0 provide that dongle also?

Scooper, 6.0 and earlier versions can run with a LIC file. However, Datacolor no longer supports LIC files or updates them. 7.0 will only run with a dongle. 7.0 includes a dongle.

hi Kras.

I agree, I too have been waiting for upgrades and changes, so I am very excited about 7.0. I hope the new site / forum will assist you with your questions. Unlike yourself, most ColorFacts users, also need a huge amount of calibration support. The new site will also be to assist them.

The licencing file has been a real problem and is being replaced with a hardware dongle.

Regards

Gregg

Here we are back to implying that the CF7 forum will somehow provide meaningful product support as well. At this point, I don't know what to think of this hat-trick of a flip-flop. I guess we'll just have to wait until CF7/Forum is launched, and take the crap shoot as to whether or not anything meaningful will come of it. Based on the evasiveness demonstrated in this thread, I'm very skeptical.

I feel sorry for the guys contemplating a purchase, who eventually spend the $2500 for the software, then discover the hard reality that there IS NO SUPPORT if they actually find a bug.

The hardware dongle is a real problem. I have a small laptop with no RS232 so I have to use a USB/RS232 to control the Accupel. The other USB port is the Spyder2. I cannot do without either hardware - so that means I have to get a USB hub. The Spyder USB interface is very sensitive to a hub - and that means I have to use a powered hub. Now I need to also bring a power strip to make sure I have available plug-ins to handle both the AccuPel as well as the USB hub wallwarts. Good way to make me look unprofessional.

For the price of the software I could care less if it means someone has to do oneoffs of a license file - I paid for professional software that allows me to do my job efficiently not gimmicky wizards. This is a very bad decision on DataColors part. As PencilGeek says - if they charge way more for the software we should get better support.

This is exactly why a forum is needed so that when changes like this are being considered we have some input regarding professional calibrators needs - rather than being told to deal with it. If it is dongle only - then why not use a pass-thru dongle and solve that problem? Maybe annual or update fees can be discussed to support such things - but it would be best to have a consensus of calibrators. LionAV does not speak for me in their consulting to DataColor after all.

At some point it makes one want to go off and write their own fraking software....and indeed there are many professional calibrators that already jumped the ColorFacts ship for other solutions. I was happy waiting knowing that SpyderTV needed to get out - but patience and tolerance has grown very thin.

Okay, at this point I am about to blow my top. The Datacolor reseller has some explaining to do. So I got my package today, just as expected because I got the shipping notice saying 1 package to be delivered today. Like a kid at christmas I open the box and low and behold a beautiful metal case. Pretty nice I may say.
So I open the box and what do I see................ The answer is NOTHING.

The case is absolutely empty. No software, no colorimeter, no colorimeter holder. Zip............... The only thing in there is a set of keys for the case. And I know I didn't pay that kind of money for a metal carrying case.

Needless to say that I am absolutely PISSED. Worse of all, they're closed for the day, etc. Both datacolor and the reseller. :mad:

The hardware dongle is a real problem. I have a small laptop with no RS232 so I have to use a USB/RS232 to control the Accupel. The other USB port is the Spyder2. I cannot do without either hardware - so that means I have to get a USB hub. The Spyder USB interface is very sensitive to a hub - and that means I have to use a powered hub. Now I need to also bring a power strip to make sure I have available plug-ins to handle both the AccuPel as well as the USB hub wallwarts. Good way to make me look unprofessional.

There are USB->RS232 adaptors with built in (non-powered) USB hubs. They're pretty cheap. I think "Keyspan"makes many different types of these devices. You can put your Accupel on the RS232 port, and the dongle on the hub. I think that should solve the problem. I've used this exact method to drive the Sencore VP403 on the RS232 and put the dongle on the hub. It works for me.

Okay, at this point I am about to blow my top. The Datacolor reseller has some explaining to do. So I got my package today, just as expected because I got the shipping notice saying 1 package to be delivered today. Like a kid at christmas I open the box and low and behold a beautiful metal case. Pretty nice I may say.
So I open the box and what do I see................ The answer is NOTHING.

The case is absolutely empty. No software, no colorimeter, no colorimeter holder. Zip............... The only thing in there is a set of keys for the case. And I know I didn't pay that kind of money for a metal carrying case.

Needless to say that I am absolutely PISSED. Worse of all, they're closed for the day, etc. Both datacolor and the reseller. :mad:


It could be that they ship the software and meter seperately from the carrying case.

-Steve

Okay, at this point I am about to blow my top. The Datacolor reseller has some explaining to do. So I got my package today, just as expected because I got the shipping notice saying 1 package to be delivered today. Like a kid at christmas I open the box and low and behold a beautiful metal case. Pretty nice I may say.
So I open the box and what do I see................ The answer is NOTHING.

The case is absolutely empty. No software, no colorimeter, no colorimeter holder. Zip............... The only thing in there is a set of keys for the case.

Needless to say that I am absolutely PISSED. Worse of all, they're closed for the day, etc. Both datacolor and the reseller. :mad:

It's a conspiracy. The mailman owns stock in a competitor. He's read the stories of horrible customer support and gross incompitence from DataColor, and upon seeing the package, he opened it up and took everything out. He probably figured that DataColor's reputation can't be hurt by this move, so he might as well commit a federal crime to help boost his stock portfolio.

Or...it could be some aspiring performance artist...saw the package and thought it contained raw materials that were suitable for a new show.

You don't own lawn gnomes do you? I've heard they are very crafty creatures that sneak into a person's mail when they're not home. This sounds like it's right up their alley.

I'm hoping that's the case as far as shipping it separately. I'm going by the shipping invoice saying my shipment consists of 1 package. Package came, but empty. Go figure. If there's going to be 2 packages, then tell me about it. I know i'm probably over-reacting, but I also paid for second day shipping and ordered it last friday so i'm still not happy. Guess i'm hard to please.

CF 7 is shipping? Their web site shows no indication of this.

I ordered CF 6.0 Just waiting for 7 to come out so I can upgrade.

I spoke to the reseller. The equipment should have been in the case. What are the odds that mine get snagged or just not put in. :(

That's just my luck.

We are getting a lot of reported posts on this thread. This is one of those threads that is subjective and will never have one simple answer for all so it will go round and round like the experts who all argue over contrast measurements.

I think it is better we close this down and let everyone support their choice in separate threads

Thank you
Alan Gouger.