I am placing this poll in the HDTV Software Media Discussion Topic because it applies to both formats and I am looking for participation from all users regardless of "religion".

There has been a lot of discussion lately about Bluray titles being "held up" by delays in implementing the advanced BD-J functionality, such as BD-Video and PiP. We'll refer to this advanced functionality as "IME".

Now what ALSO appears to be coming to light, is that the delays in the release of the Bluray versions of some big hits, have meant that Warner has possibly held back the HD DVD version also. Even for titles that we have heard are ready to release on HD DVD.

Hits that seem to have been held up include The Matrix and Harry Potter series'.

But it is going to be very tough for Warner to get these BD-Video titles tested when they are NO Bluray players on the market right now with these capabilities.

SO... The question is - SHOULD Warner release these big hits to both formats now, as soon as possible, for us all to enjoy, regardless of whether they have the advanced "IME" interactive capabilities. Or should they hold back one, or BOTH formats' releases until the Interactive stuff is ready?

Threads you can read up on before or after your vote:

Bluray BD-J delays causing HD DVD Releases to be held back?! (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=797524&page=1&pp=30)

BD-J Holding up lots of Bluray Titles? (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=796592)

Warner's Release Policy and 'catching up' explained (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=772035&page=1&pp=30)

HDDVD Supporters needed..... PLEASE READ (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=799031&page=1&pp=30)

Release HD-DVDs that are absolutely ready up to Warner's standards, but by all means, wait up on the BD releases till they sort out what and how the hell to implement non-psuedo interactivity.

get them out ASAP. I doubt many BD fans care about interactivity. I doubt many HD DVD fans care either. Everyone cares about the movie itself.

Didn't vote. You don't have the choice I would select.

My vote would be: "Please release what you have, when you have it. Eliminate all release dependencies between disc formats."

It's possible there may be some BD titles ready and waiting for HD DVD to be pressed. Shouldn't it work both ways?

Didn't vote. You don't have the choice I would select.

My vote would be: "Please release what you have, when you have it. Eliminate all release dependencies between disc formats."

It's possible there may be some BD titles ready and waiting for HD DVD to be pressed. Shouldn't it work both ways?
Yes - it may not seem like it at first, but that is choice number two.

In relaity - there are no Blurays waiting for HD DVD development to finish right now, so there was no option for that, only for that reason.

But in principle I agree with you.

But it is going to be very tough for Warner to get these BD-Video titles tested when they are NO Bluray players on the market right now with these capabilities.[/url]

I'm just curious: if current Blu-ray players don't support these features, will the owners of these players not be able to take advantage of the advanced features?
Then how exactly does it make sense to release discs with these features at all?

I'm tired of waiting. Release the movies now on HD DVD, and either release them without interactivity on BR or wait for it. I don't see why HD DVD customers should be penalized by Warner just because BR doesn't have their act together yet.
J

Perhaps Warner along with MSFT are lobbying the BDA to let in HDi - ain't gonna happen! Just like BD exclusive studios are not gonna support VC1.

I can't think of a practical reason why Warner would hold back completed releases and lose money in the process.

Perhaps Warner along with MSFT are lobbying the BDA to let in HDi - ain't gonna happen! Just like BD exclusive studios are not gonna support VC1.

I can't think of a practical reason why Warner would hold back completed releases and lose money in the process.

LOL HDi on BD!! :p

Everybody on here keeps saying that studios are losing money by only supporting/releasing on one format, I would say that is not true, atm there is no money being made on either of the formats, relative to DVD. If Warner sees fit to release on BD and HD DVD at the same time, who are we to argue their company policy.

Flightplan from Disney had VC-1 encoding.

Anyway I couldn't care less about the interactivity. As long as the Harry Potter and Matrix movies are released with lossless audio, I'm all good. The interactivity is the least important feature to me on these discs.

If it's a choice between interactivity/lossy audio and no interactivity/lossless, the latter wins everytime.

Yes and No! Release HD DVDs that are ready, but I want BD-Video interactive on my BD


This is a poll about Warner discs. So, that answer is:

"Yes and No! Release the Warner HD DVD that are ready, but I want BD-Video interactive on my Warner BD."

That makes sense to you?

Certainly a few nice BD people will offer this, but it is rather meaningless for neutral folk. And I note you didn't make it a public poll.

Gary

i do not see why one format should be penalized by another formats incompetence... another is, why has bluray even been released yet since it is still not ready and it looks like(by what most people are saying) todays bluray players wouldn't even play the IME. So lets review, shall we? IME for bluray is non-operational, the secondary security encoding isn't even in place, they are screwing with bluray player companies i.e.> pioneer and what not by selling a $499 bluray player and the stand alone players can't even come close to touching that price, and they are messing with the hddvd side since neutral studios are holding back hddvds because bluray can't get their **** together. bluray started this war and now they are holding it up... i hope companies start seeing sony for what they really are and turn neutral or gives up on bluray all together soon. :mad:

One format should not be penalized because the other hasn't addressed their technical problems.

Release the HD DVD's now and followup with the BD disc's when the platform is ready.

If it was the other way around I'd still say the same thing.

Yes - it may not seem like it at first, but that is choice number two.

In relaity - there are no Blurays waiting for HD DVD development to finish right now, so there was no option for that, only for that reason.

But in principle I agree with you.


Voted....

My take on the delay for BD interactivity is this. I've read in a couple of places (including the response to your question from paidgeek) about the fact that there are no authoring tools (BD-J) for BD interactivity. The other post was the article of the Joone interview. I believe he described the differences between the easy-to-use HDi tools and the relatively complex job of having to hand code for BD-J. BD-J requires programming java by hand. Rather crude I might add. My guess is there's probably only a "raw" api for the feature set. Heaven forbid that the api is not finalized yet! Warner is probably still trying to put together some re-usable java libraries to leverage previous work and prevent them from re-inventing the same general stuff for every new BD release that comes along. On the other hand, the BDA may also be trying to coordinate the development of these libraries between the other BD supporting studios. If the latter is the case, then it will take even longer to get everyone on the same page. In any case, this type of software development can result in rather lengthy project life-cycles. Especially when they're dealing with something that hasn't been done before. Not to mention the constraints caused by the existing players abilities to run said code.

As a long-time software developer, I sure would be interested in seeing what's going on with the BD-J stuff. I think it would be a blast to be part of the development team that creates the interactive software for the studios.

The BDA should do a public release of version controlled APIs for each BD-J profile -- now! I do not understand what they gain by hiding it at this point. A year ago? Maybe yes, they might have needed to keep it to paid members for competitive reasons. But at this point keeping it hidden just prevents tool development and causes mistrust/doubt in potential BD player consumers.

Don't hold up HD-DVD waiting on BD!
Release HD DVDs that are ready. Unless BD releases hold up HD-DVD I could care less about BD until players are cheap enough, so that part is unimportant to me. ;)

This is better than I expected. It seems that both the BD and HD camps want the same thing here: Movies.

I've seen feedback from BD owners in the other thread and reflected in the votes here that we ALL mostly just want the movies as soon as possible. The second biggest majority would also like to see the BD-Video stuff on discs, but without holding up releases in any other format.

Dear Warner - could you please just release discs as they are ready, without tying one format to the other? Please also consider than most users would like these releases on BOTH formats as soon as possible. Please consider adding BD-Video functionality when it is ready and not let it compromise release dates.

This is better than I expected. It seems that both the BD and HD camps want the same thing here: Movies.

I've seen feedback from BD owners in the other thread and reflected in the votes here that we ALL mostly just want the movies as soon as possible. The second biggest majority would also like to see the BD-Video stuff on discs, but without holding up releases in any other format.

Dear Warner - could you please just release discs as they are ready, without tying one format to the other? Please also consider than most users would like these releases on BOTH formats as soon as possible. Please consider adding BD-Video functionality when it is ready and not let it compromise release dates.

Makes sense. IME is just not important enough to further delay getting the catchup titles and upcoming ones.

Heck, if you want to wait, then don't buy the non-IME version and wait. Another version will come along. :)

Choice 1 makes the most sense for everyone, except the few who feel they must have IME. But, why delay the movies for the rest of us?

Gary

Where's the choice for:

Release HD-DVD now (because it's ready), and save yourself (WB) money on producing BD (when it finally is ready) because BD would be all but dead.

I don't know which one I should vote for

1) I don't want them both released at the same time, just HD-DVD
2) I don't care about BD-J and will not purchase a BD version (including TotalHD)
3) Don't hold HD-DVD back!
4) The poll is close enough to the truth, that this is not an option

So which one is closest?

Nice idea. Unfortunately I don't think it addresses all of the issues that BD's users are having with Warner.

Here's some questions regarding Warner's policy from the Blu-ray point of view:
(multiple choice)

- Re-encode everything at a higher bitrate to exploit the BD's capacity
- Just give us the same HD-DVD master

- Whenever possible, use Dolby THD or PCM instead of DD+
- Plain Dolby Digital 5.1 instead of DD+, is acceptable

- Warner should be codec-neutral on Blu-ray
- It doesn't matter what codec is used as long as the quality is there

- Warner's blockbusters on Blu-ray should be fully BD-J
- Just release the discs, even with a basic interactivity

- Combo BD releases are fine, for a few dollars more
- Never release anything in a combo format

Should we make a Warner's alternative poll for Blu-ray users? :)

My vote is for Warner to just release everything that's on HD DVD onto BD as well. I have no interest in interactivity or any other supplemental features. Give us BD fans V For Vendetta, Batman Begins, and T3 NOW!

Almost 200 voters - keep it coming, Let Warner se that it is representative.

Make sure you also send messages to the Warner links here also - http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=797524&page=1&pp=30

I can't think of a practical reason why Warner would hold back completed releases and lose money in the process.In a word THD! Warner wants to release one disc with everything included in "full" for both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray then be done with that movie and more on to the next project. So this is most likely the reason for the delay, they want to ship just one HD disc per movie.

Once the manufacturing is up and running, the three studios plan to release all new titles on THD discs with exactly the same content (including bonus materials) on each side. http://www.avguide.com/news/2007/01/12/ces-07-warner-one-world-one-disc/
I much rather they ship separate releases of HD-DVR version with HDi now and even the Blu-Ray version with no BR-J. Instead of causing delays for either format. Then later when BR-J is finally supported by a few players then another version of the disc "Collectors", "Ultimate", "Deluxe", etc Edition could be release with that new content. Following the example of every other DVD.

If Warner keeps holding back their big HD DVD releases for TotalHD and BD-J, they are going to wake up and find that the TotalHD format has become irrelevant due to a BRD win.

Unless Sony and the BDA have given Warner a sweet deal, Warner may be committing business suicide by playing this TotalHD game.

Snap out of it Warner, unless you no longer stand to gain more from HD DVD success than you do BRD success, because either way, TotalHD is not going to fly.

I think that if Warner wants to press discs and then store them instead of selling them, that's their right. I'm not sure what a poll will do for the situation. This seems like one of those situations where if a person is too stupid to figure it out, there's no point trying to explain it to them. Except Warner can't possibly be that stupid, so I'm starting to feel like they've decided to stop supporting HD DVD but don't want to come out and say it. "Neutrality" means giving both formats their fair chance to succeed based on their strengths, not artificially and intentionally handicapping one format to compensate for another's shortcomings. If you invite two friends over, and one doesn't show, do you kick the other out or do you proceed to entertain the friend who showed up?

I'm starting to get so disgusted with this whole situation that I find myself not really caring anymore. I've stopped buying HD DVDs due to lack of interest. I've done my part to keep up the attach rate, but now I can't find anything to buy. There are a couple older titles I'd been meaning to pick up, but why buy a studio's films on a format they no longer seem to use? When Warner / Universal decide to get back in the game (meaning discs on shelves, not announcements w/o release dates), then I will too. And I'm not going to petition them or fill out polls. They need to show some enthusiasm for HD DVD on their OWN.

My vote is for Warner to just release everything that's on HD DVD onto BD as well. I have no interest in interactivity or any other supplemental features. Give us BD fans V For Vendetta, Batman Begins, and T3 NOW!They could always leave the interactivity stuff off and give use 24/48 lossless audio to help make up for it. :)

--Darin

get them out ASAP. I doubt many BD fans care about interactivity. I doubt many HD DVD fans care either. Everyone cares about the movie itself.
i didnt think of that ...cool! it isnt fair of warner to hold back hd-dvd titles because bd has a issue,wb is clearly bias toward bd,or this has to do with there super hd disk that nobody cares about anyways,this sounds like something you here out of washington dc. :)

Interactivity is not a big deal to me. I'm buying a movie, not a video game. Just release the movies ASAP.

Me wants more Warner Bros HD DVDs NOW....:)

My vote is for Warner to just release everything that's on HD DVD onto BD as well. I have no interest in interactivity or any other supplemental features. Give us BD fans V For Vendetta, Batman Begins, and T3 NOW!

Another vote for that. Don't care about special features or iteractivity. Just movies.

Release them now! Blu-rayers don't care about special features or IME. They just want LPCM. Give them that on a BD50 and they'll be tickled pink. Warner can save the special features and IME for a double-dip super-dooper special edition a couple years from now.

Thanks for all the input, everyone - all 281 of you :)

Just so you know loads of letter have been sent to Warner by the folks on this forum, as well as hundreds more from the HD support petition.

I think it's safe to say that Warner should know how we feel at this point. I'm hopeful that we can get some indication back from them on what they may do.

Crossing fingers, toes and eyes...

I think the sales of The Departed on Blu-ray dwarfing the sales of The Departed on HD DVD will let Warner know that the odd letter here and there means relatively little.

I know that Amazon is not the best source, but right now here are some numbers for discs being released on both formats. I would not consider Blu-ray sales to dwarf the HD DVD sales. They are pretty even overall.

The Departed Blu-Ray #57
The Departed HD DVD #72

Babel Blu-Ray #339
Babel HD DVD #564

NIN Beside You in Time Blu-Ray #710
NIN Beside You in Time HD DVD #957

Bullitt Blu-Ray #3,300
Bullitt HD DVD #2,700

The Getaway Blu-ray #6,033
The Getaway HD DVD #4,120

I find it interesting that Blu-ray and HD DVD people alike (for the most part) don't want discs held up for Blu-ray's Java.

I find it interesting that Blu-ray and HD DVD people alike (for the most part) don't want discs held up for Blu-ray's Java.

If a choice hadn't been given that encourages an unnecessary anti-BD stance (#2 in a private poll), the results would have been much more skewed to choice #1.

Gary

If a choice hadn't been given that encourages an unnecessary anti-BD stance (#2 in a private poll), the results would have been much more skewed to choice #1.

Gary
No doubt, that second choice made the whole poll smell like a 1,000 year old stink.

I find it interesting that Blu-ray and HD DVD people alike (for the most part) don't want discs held up for Blu-ray's Java.
That is exactly the point.

There are some diehard BD "intruments", I could call them, that would like to deny that other Bluray owners feel this way, but it's clear that they mostly feel the same way as HD DVD owners: Bring the new titles out now and worry about BDJ IME stuff when it's ready. Period.

If a choice hadn't been given that encourages an unnecessary anti-BD stance (#2 in a private poll), the results would have been much more skewed to choice #1.

Gary
Doh! :)

There ARE no Bluray titles being held up by HD DVD development, as I explained at the start of this thread, so it wasn't inlcuded as a choice for only that reason. I would happilly go back and change choice number 2 to swing both ways (a) if I could or (b) if it would make ANY difference to yor position...

And as for NOT making the poll PUBLIC? Public polls tend to make some people afraid to speak their mind, as they don't want to upset fanboys on either side.

WHY would you be upset that the poll is private? Why is it that you want to know which Bluray owners are against your own opinion on this issue?

No doubt, that second choice made the whole poll smell like a 1,000 year old stink.
Raising the tone as usual, doby?

You don't like the, poll? Fine. You don't like the results? Fine. You don't like the posts by some of the Bluray owners who would like their releases now? Fie.

Then I respectfully remind you that there are other threads you may find more interesting - you don't have to contribute nonsense like the above.

There ARE no Bluray titles being held up by HD DVD development, as I explained at the start of this thread, so it wasn't inlcuded as a choice for only that reason. I would happilly go back and change choice number 2 to swing both ways (a) if I could or (b) if it would make ANY difference to yor position...


What sentiment is choice #2 supposed to be capturing?

Is it for BD purchasers, or is for HD DVD purchasers who want their titles out now, but want to slow down the BD releases?


And as for NOT making the poll PUBLIC? Public polls tend to make some people afraid to speak their mind, as they don't want to upset fanboys on either side.


How controversial is the subject matter to require that?

Gary

We have some potentially good news here, everyone.

Warner has indicated that they have heard the appeals from everyone here.

They have stated they will be sending a formal reply to our requests later today.

They also have apparently sent a reply to me at the HD Now base, but I have been travelling since Saturday and left my petition laptop at home, so I can't check the petition emails! Yargh - :D :) I'm dying of curiosity.

Regardless of their response, I am very happy that Warner has replied. This is a very responsible and caring approach by the studio and they should be commended for taking the time to let us know that they care about their customers.

Well done, Warner. And well done to all of you who took the time to send them a message. You have been heard!

What sentiment is choice #2 supposed to be capturing?

Is it for BD purchasers, or is for HD DVD purchasers who want their titles out now, but want to slow down the BD releases?

How controversial is the subject matter to require that?

GaryHi Gary - #2 was asking whether any titles on "one" format should be held back due to development problems on the "other". It's unfortunate that it was worded as simply as it was, since currently only HD DVD titles seem to be being held back due to BD delays. But it was not a format slur -I could have stated it both ways in the question, but I felt most people understood (and I still feel that most people have understood).

Regarding having a public vote, I wanted to encourage BD supporter to weigh in also. I did not feel that making their votes public would have been conducive to getting them to be comfortable with that, as I was concerned that a "small minority" of BD supporters would have been overly curious at who may have "betrayed" them. Your "concern" about having this public confirms my initial feeling on the matter.

We have some potentially good news here, everyone.

Warner has indicated that they have heard the appeals from everyone here.

They have stated they will be sending a formal reply to our requests later today.

They also have apparently sent a reply to me at the HD Now base, but I have been travelling since Saturday and left my petition laptop at home, so I can't check the petition emails! Yargh - :D :) I'm dying of curiosity.

Regardless of their response, I am very happy that Warner has replied. This is a very responsible and caring approach by the studio and they should be commended for taking the time to let us know that they care about their customers.

Well done, Warner. And well done to all of you who took the time to send them a message. You have been heard!


Nice job Rdjam! Regardless of this turns out, it's reassuring to see that the studios do listen to their customers requests.

Well, the response has been posted by Merlin in the poll thread.

They seem to be making clear that this is not a "company policy" and that there are new releases coming in April and May:

Dear Adam:


First of all, thank you for your support of Warner Bros. and for our films in the new HD DVD format, as well as the existing SD DVD format. As you have pointed out in your note, there have recently been on-line discussions claiming that Warner Home Video is holding titles back from the marketplace in the HD DVD format due to plans in BD, and that this is now a company policy. Regardless of the source of this information, it is not true.



Warner Home Video is releasing titles in both high definition formats, and where possible we try to release a title simultaneously in both formats. But this is not always the case, and in fact since we released our first titles in April, 2006 there have been some titles that have been released in HD DVD before BD, and some that have been released in BD before HD DVD.



There are many factors that determine the timing for the release of a motion picture in DVD, HD DVD, and BD. We currently have released more titles in HD DVD than any other studio, and we are anticipating a very exciting schedule for the rest of 2007. In the month of January 2007, we released 4 new titles in HD DVD.



We hope you will enjoy our upcoming HD DVD releases, including two of our best movies from last year (and both recognized with multiple Academy Award nominations), THE DEPARTED and HAPPY FEET, which will be released in February and March 2007, respectively.



We also expect to announce shortly some title plans for April and May. The titles will be quite a thrill for all HD DVD owners and supporters.



Best regards.

Hopefully everyone is somewhat satisfied by their response?

I see some potentially very good news in there due to the way it's worded and look forward to seeing what their upcoming releases will be...

Well they said it. I think it is positive. Now lets see if they deliver.

Don't hold back the HD DVD but don't rush and give me a second rate BD just to get it to market more quickly. I'd rather be patient and get a higher-quality Blu-ray Disc in return.

I love extras and those IMEs look like they're awesome; I don't want to miss out just because I can't afford both formats at the moment.

That's what I think, anyway.

Does anyone know when Warner might announce the April titles? Guesstimates?

Hopefully everyone is somewhat satisfied by their response?
.
I'm not. I replied back, but haven't heard anything yet-probably won't either.
J

Here's an interesting development that seems to back Grubert up...

Both Fox and MGM have just cancelled their release schedules for a whole bunch of Bluray movies, citing "unforseen technical difficulties"... Does this sound like deja-vu or what? Looks like it's more than just Warner that's being hurt by this BD-J problem?

http://www.foxretail.com/sadoc/static/530.pdf

http://www.foxretail.com/sadoc/static/528.pdf