I guess HV20 is indeed coming soon.

http://www.usa.canon.com/templatedata/pressrelease/20070131_hv20.html

http://www.hdvinfo.net/articles/canon/hv20pressrelease.php

http://cweb.canon.jp/ivis/hv20/index.html

It seems to answer all the wishes of HV10 owners have for the things they miss on HV10 compared to Sony HC3. And it has much more, like 24p and headphone....

Well I think its going to kill all the Sony HDVs perhaps even their prosumer models.

DANG! :D :D CMOS

Arigato!


But how about lowlight capability? :confused:
Let us pray.

check the specs, lowlight seems improved vs HV10, 3lux (vs 5lux for hv10), roughly same for night mode. Have to wait for actual recordings to see about noise...

Nice job finding this info. My HV10 is still in the mail... :mad:

Not vertical anymore and full 1080 in addition to the HDMI and 24p. I think you are right about pulling ahead of the Sony's.
http://cweb.canon.jp/ivis/hv20/images/top-left-img2.jpg

check the specs, lowlight seems improved vs HV10, 3lux (vs 5lux for hv10), roughly same for night mode. Have to wait for actual recordings to see about noise...
I didn't see the specs in the japanese language link or the hdvinfo link. I guess I read it too fast. Where is it? HERE? (http://cweb.canon.jp/ivis/hv20/spec.html)

Ahha! I see! You posted links in the other thread. Thanks.

EDIT: and I see GodobeHD has now edited his post to include the other link as well.

Thanks!

Nice job finding this info. My HV10 is still in the mail... :mad:
Agreed, very nice job.

I would return the HV10 unopened.

The hdvinfo link says availability in April (supposedly this year as the announcement is this year and no year after "April" is stated).
The Canon site (see other HV20 link) states availability in March 2008. :eek:

I hope it's this year. :cool:

Man that was a close call. Almost bought the Hv10 - and hesitated since there was so much fuss about how crappy the form factor was.

My biggest gripe was no HDMI and form factor, and they fixed both...for a lower initial price point (and better low light levels to boot).

Wonder how Sony will respond here? Looks to be an HC7 killer with the specs.
Way to go Canon!

Do we know what media it records to? Or what compression codecs it will be using?

HDV

So you're talking about 25Mbps tape and MPEG2-TS. The good thing is that there are more editing programs that support HDV than newer cams like AVCHD.

This is a nice update for Canon. This is now my ideal choice for a camera.

US Press release - http://www.usa.canon.com/templatedata/pressrelease/20070131_hv20.html

"Among the new features within the Canon HV20 HD Camcorder is an Advanced Accessory Shoe capable of accommodating such additional components as select external video lights or directional microphones. The HV20 HD Camcorder also features microphone and headphone input terminals with manual level control for professional quality audio recording and a 24p Cinema Mode..."

And photos - http://www.usa.canon.com/templatedata/pressrelease/genhtml_photo/20070131_pkit_hv20.html

http://www.usa.canon.com/templatedata/pressrelease/images/loRes/20070131_loRes_hv20_3q_front.jpg


"The Canon HV20 HD Camcorder kit includes a compact power adapter, a wireless remote control, the new, and energy efficient BP-2L13 battery pack, a stereo video cable, a USB cable and a component video cable. In stores in April, the HV20 HD Camcorder carries an estimated selling price of $1099*. "

Now I really have to think about ebaying my beloved HV10. :(

Now I really have to think about ebaying my beloved HV10. :(

I just received my HV10 today, but still have time to return it.

Lucky you and good for you!

More pics
With DM-50 http://cweb.canon.jp/ivis/hv20/images/point-full-img2.jpg
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?A=details&kw=CADM50&is=REG&Q=&O=productlist&sku=201377


With VFL-1 http://cweb.canon.jp/ivis/hv20/images/point-full-img3.jpg
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=Search&A=details&Q=&sku=279245&is=REG&addedTroughType=search

I think I've read elsewhere that the Sony proprietary shoe isn't the same size as a standard accessory shoe so that you can't attach third party accessories to the camera without an adaptor. Is the same true for the Canon proprietary shoe?

I think I've read elsewhere that the Sony proprietary shoe isn't the same size as a standard accessory shoe so that you can't attach third party accessories to the camera without an adaptor. Is the same true for the Canon proprietary shoe?

I guess that same is true if you intent to power the accessories via the shoe. If you only use it as a mounting bracket you should be able to fit more or even any accessories.

Yeah - understand that the you can't power third party accessories through the proprietary shoes. It was my understanding that the actual mechanical bracket is smaller on the Sony than the standard bracket so that accessories won't even fit on the Sony. Just wanted to hear from Canon users if Canon shoes are standard-sized.

Now THAT is a little better!! Hated the look of the HV10.... but this.... think I may trade in the HC3!

Can't seem to find if it has night vision though.... I use that alot on the HC3... Anybody know if it's got??

I guess HV20 is indeed coming soon.

http://www.usa.canon.com/templatedata/pressrelease/20070131_hv20.html

http://www.hdvinfo.net/articles/canon/hv20pressrelease.php

http://cweb.canon.jp/ivis/hv20/index.html

It seems to answer all the wishes of HV10 owners have for the things they miss on HV10 compared to Sony HC3. And it has much more, like 24p and headphone....

Well I think its going to kill all the Sony HDVs perhaps even their prosumer models.

Godobe, yes indeed, this will be THE killer cam. There will be absolutely no small cam like it. Many big cams will envy it!

I wonder if the "cinema mode" is really 24 fps or just has the effect but still 30 fps like Sony's effect?

Now I really have to think about ebaying my beloved HV10. :(

You and I think alike. It would be really tough to do, but the HV20 may be just too hard to pass up!

I wonder if the "cinema mode" is really 24 fps or just has the effect but still 30 fps like Sony's effect?

It is a true 24p mode. It also has a "Cinema" setting that is the same Cinema setting as Cinema #8 in the big Canons. Don't ask me what "Cinema #8" is, but it follows the same picture parameters as that setting in the Canon A1/G1.

So is there a firm release date? Canon site says March 2008. Hdvinfo say April (supposedly this year). I vote for the latter. :D

This really does sound like it might be a great camera.

Does it still record in 1440 by 1080i resolution?

It is a true 24p mode. It also has a "Cinema" setting that is the same Cinema setting as Cinema #8 in the big Canons. Don't ask me what "Cinema #8" is, but it follows the same picture parameters as that setting in the Canon A1/G1.

I'm hoping March 2007. Due date is in April.

Does it still record in 1440 by 1080i resolution?

It records the image in 1920x1080 p/i but only outputs in HDV which is 1400x1080 only. If a camcorder is in the HDV format, it will never be 1920x1080!

Release date listed - April 6
HV20 pre-order (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000MUV6BA?tag=digitalcam)

It records the image in 1920x1080 p/i but only outputs in HDV which is 1400x1080 only. If a camcorder is in the HDV format, it will never be 1920x1080!

Actually you may be able to capture 1920x1080 original DV off the HV20. There is an HDMI card that came out a few months ago and it was designed JUST for this purpose:
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/
It captures the uncompressed video stream off the Sony HC3(before it is encoded onto the miniDV tape). Now with HV20's outputting 1920x1080 you may be able to for the first time capturing 1920x1080 digital stream from an HDV cam. And better yet if you can set this up with a small laptop you have an HDD cam with a huge storage as well.

Has anybody been able to find size/weight specifications for this? Just curious

Release date listed - April 6
HV20 pre-order (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000MUV6BA?tag=digitalcam)
Thanks for the link!! This is going to be a big seller.

Actually you may be able to capture 1920x1080 original DV off the HV20. There is an HDMI card that came out a few months ago and it was designed JUST for this purpose:
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/
It captures the uncompressed video stream off the Sony HC3(before it is encoded onto the miniDV tape). Now with HV20's outputting 1920x1080 you may be able to for the first time capturing 1920x1080 digital stream from an HDV cam. And better yet if you can set this up with a small laptop you have an HDD cam with a huge storage as well.
Will that card work with a laptop?

Specs, features and release date: http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelDetailAct&fcategoryid=177&modelid=14869

Has anybody been able to find size/weight specifications for this? Just curious

Dimensions WxHxD 3.5 x 3.2 x 5.4 in
Weight (not including lens and battery pack) 1.2 lbs

here is a size reference next to the CD http://www.usa.canon.com/app/images/camcorder/hv20/hv20_kit_contents.jpg

Here are the complete specs:
http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelTechSpecsAct&fcategoryid=177&modelid=14869

Will that card work with a laptop?

No, unless you have a docking station which accepts PCI-E cards.

It is funny how Canon advertises low light performance for the HV20:

" Some of the most magical shots are taken at the end of the day or long after the sun has set. You won't miss any of them, thanks to the HV20's bright Ultra Video Light. The light lets you shoot subjects in color in low light up to 4.9 feet away. So, whether it's a shot of a sleeping baby, or a dramatic skyline at night, the HV20 captures all the moments you want to record."

Skyline at 4.9 feet?!

I want to know how well it shoots in dimly lit scenes with NO auxiliary light source.

I noticed that they changed 2008 to 2007 on the Canon website. Yesterday morning they had March 2008.

I want to know how well it shoots in dimly lit scenes with NO auxiliary light source.

I noticed that they changed 2008 to 2007 on the Canon website. Yesterday morning they had March 2008.

According to the specs the HV20 is better than HV10 3Lux vs. 5Lux.
They are using the same CMOS and the better performance could be a trade off - noise, color.
We will not know till someone does on-hands test.

I suspect the low light improvement will probably come from the new processing chip in HV20. When you look at HV10's low light scene you see lots of noise as blue vertical lines. If Canon manages to remove this noise pattern from the background I think the low light video will look a lot more acceptable.

We will not know till someone does on-hands test.

Okay - who's first?
Any preorders here yet?

:cool: :)

I am definitely pre-ordering this camera!

Indeed you can use that fancy card with a laptop, if you use one of these......

http://www.mobl.com/expansion/products/expressbox1/expressbox1.html

Indeed you can use that fancy card with a laptop, if you use one of these......

http://www.mobl.com/expansion/products/expressbox1/expressbox1.html


$679 and not available yet :-)

I have never seen a HDTV camera in action and I came to this thread to ask if the Cannon was a rebadged Sony. Looks like from comments that it is an original Cannon product.

What do home HDTV tapes look like? Are they as clear and detailed as the HDTV you see on over-the-air HDTV programs? Is it as good as Leno or Letterman? ***Letterman is far better than Leno, video quality wise, in my opinion.*** Can anyone describe for me what home HDTV looks like and what I could expect from such a camera. Would the Cannon be adequate for filming a documentary in 24P cinema mode?

IB

Here is what the HV10 can do...
http://usa.canon.com/app/html/See_The_Difference/hd_cmos.shtml

The HV20 will be slightly better but more or less the same in quality. Don't expect it to look much better than this.

Download 720P minimum. It looks fantastic!

inky blacks, I think OTA CBS's is the best HDTV I have seen so far too. The bit rates of my recorded CBS shows are usually around 21mb indicated by VideoRedo, far above any other stations.

With Canon HV10 my HD video comes out at least as sharp as that on OTA CBS. But the dynamic range of color and gray levels may be lacking a little bit compared to the CBS, definately to shows like CIS :p .

I have had Sony HC3 and Canon HV10. HC3 looks close to the PQ of NBC but HV10's is definately on par with CBS. Hope that helps.

But the dynamic range of color and gray levels may be lacking a little bit compared to the CBS, definately to shows like CIS :p .

I have had Sony HC3 and Canon HV10. HC3 looks close to the PQ of NBC but HV10's is definately on par with CBS. Hope that helps.

CSI Miami uses all kinds of filters and digital steroids to pump up the colors to make the show look like a peyote hallucination. :eek: It's not just their cameras.

Yes, you comments did help. Thanks.

IB

Just received my HV10 this week from Costco online. Bought it there because of their outstanding open box return policy, the upcoming HC7 release and HV20 rumors. Looks like the HV20 covers all the concerns I had. I'll try the HV10 for a week or 2 but looks like it will be going back - especially sine the list of the HV20 is what I paid for the 10.

Is there really a difference between standard and HDV miniDV tapes?

BB now has preorder too; free shipping

I have never seen a HDTV camera in action and I came to this thread to ask if the Cannon was a rebadged Sony. Looks like from comments that it is an original Cannon product.



Canon products are not rebadged-version of any brand. Cannon, however, always rebadged their offerings (yes, there is a lesser-known Chinese electronics line named "Cannon" -- with two "n"s)

as anybody some links to download some footage ??

I'm a bit surprised that every posts of HV10 footage is done in full light. I think every camera will do a good job in this situation. I'm looking for some samples from HV10/HV20 in 'low light situation' i mean sequences fimed indoor with normal lighting.

It records the image in 1920x1080 p/i but only outputs in HDV which is 1400x1080 only. If a camcorder is in the HDV format, it will never be 1920x1080!


bummer......

It's getting very old seeing these 'almost' HD camcorders calling themselves new products. My old pentium 4 computer's been recording true HD over the air for over 4 years. Small hard drives have been around for years. Standard MPEG2 Transport stream has been around for years. RAID has been around for years. Firewire, USB 2.0 and HDMI have been around for years. Megapixel CCDs have been around for years. And so have the HD displays. The needed compression, bandwidth, random access file systems, storage capacity, battery, computer editing and displays are already here, why not put them together. I'm trying not to make the same mistake again of buying 'almost' HD one more year.

yes, but the camcorder is not the size of your Pentium 4 PC. Besides, you PC is recording HD... not encoding HD in real time.

The HV10 downconverts to 1440 by 1080.

The HV10 downconverts to 1440 by 1080.

it's the HDV standard. :rolleyes:

true. HDV

bummer......

It's getting very old seeing these 'almost' HD camcorders calling themselves new products. My old pentium 4 computer's been recording true HD over the air for over 4 years. Small hard drives have been around for years. Standard MPEG2 Transport stream has been around for years. RAID has been around for years. Firewire, USB 2.0 and HDMI have been around for years. Megapixel CCDs have been around for years. And so have the HD displays. The needed compression, bandwidth, random access file systems, storage capacity, battery, computer editing and displays are already here, why not put them together. I'm trying not to make the same mistake again of buying 'almost' HD one more year.

Believe it or not the size of the signal matrix being 1920x1080 vs 1440x1080 matters little when it comes to final picture quality. You can have a 1920x1080 signal resolving only 200x200 on a test pattern. Most Pro HD camcorders can not resolve more than 600x600 on the test pattern with 1920x1080 signal matrix.

The true resolution of an HD cam being an HDV or not is still way below 1440x1080. A big reason people are so excited about the HV10/HV20 is that it scored the highest (about 630x690) on the true resolution test, meaning it has the sharpest HD picture, even surpassing the pro models. I can attest that my HV10's footage in bright light looks sharper than my OTA recordings.

Your Pentium 4 is recording pre-compressed MPEG-2 (that's how they fit it over the air) so it doesn't have to do any compression at all, and its still dissipating well over 100W (CPU only). The 1440x1080 limitation is built into the HDV standard, so don't look for it changing anytime soon. Better sensor technology will get us closer to 1440x1080 actual resolution (probably by using more Bayer-filtered megapixels and downscaling), but that's going to require a lot of bandwidth (the bandwidth already required for 1920x1080x8bpp @ 30fps before compression is 0.5 Gbps); you're looking at around 9 times the pixels to get 1920x1080 true resolution, or 4.5Gbps. Maybe in 3-4 years...

as anybody some links to download some footage ??

I'm a bit surprised that every posts of HV10 footage is done in full light. I think every camera will do a good job in this situation. I'm looking for some samples from HV10/HV20 in 'low light situation' i mean sequences fimed indoor with normal lighting.

Ask and you shall receive.

HV10 Indoor...
http://media.dvinfo.net/canonxh/cgHV10_eveInside_ChineseCharm.mpg

HV10 Outdoor in extremely low light conditions.
http://media.dvinfo.net/canonxh/cgHV10_nightcars_StreetlightOnly.mpg

Don't forget, the HV20 should perform even better in low light situations.

Ask and you shall receive.

HV10 Indoor...
http://media.dvinfo.net/canonxh/cgHV10_eveInside_ChineseCharm.mpg

HV10 Outdoor in extremely low light conditions.
http://media.dvinfo.net/canonxh/cgHV10_nightcars_StreetlightOnly.mpg

Don't forget, the HV20 should perform even better in low light situations.

Is there some special codec I need to view these movies? I'm getting the "?" quicktime logo and only audio (through WMP) when I try and open these. Thanks.

They played fine for me...

Maybe you need to upgrade to QT 7? Or use WMP 11... worked for me.
Good luck!

Kyser

bummer......

It's getting very old seeing these 'almost' HD camcorders calling themselves new products. My old pentium 4 computer's been recording true HD over the air for over 4 years. Small hard drives have been around for years. Standard MPEG2 Transport stream has been around for years. RAID has been around for years. Firewire, USB 2.0 and HDMI have been around for years. Megapixel CCDs have been around for years. And so have the HD displays. The needed compression, bandwidth, random access file systems, storage capacity, battery, computer editing and displays are already here, why not put them together. I'm trying not to make the same mistake again of buying 'almost' HD one more year.

Don't know quite how to tell you this, but almost all of the HD you see from HD pro cams is generally no higher than 1440X1080 due to in-camera filtering. Does their footage look 'almost HD' to you too? You apparently haven't seen footage from the latest consumer "almost HD" cams. If you saw much of this footage, you'd think you were watching Discovery HD.

Try not to measure quality by numbers alone.....you'll lose most of the time. ;)

I know, quality can't be measured with numbers alone. But there comes a point where the envelope needs to be pushed. Lots of cutting edge ideas have tried and failed, i.e. foveon, but settling never caused progress.

The HV20 feels more of an update, a response to the likes and dislikes of the HV10. I just wish the potential already inside the HV10 were brought out more.

to me, there is no point in going 1920 x 1080 when the resolving resolution is no more than 600 x 600. It's like asking for the roads to be designed to handle 800 mph speeds when none of the car on the market can run faster than 400 mph.

to me, there is no point in going 1920 x 1080 when the resolving resolution is no more than 600 x 600. It's like asking for the roads to be designed to handle 800 mph speeds when none of the car on the market can run faster than 400 mph.

What's the resolving resolution of the new Everio (GZ-HD7)?

I know, quality can't be measured with numbers alone. But there comes a point where the envelope needs to be pushed. Lots of cutting edge ideas have tried and failed, i.e. foveon, but settling never caused progress.

The HV20 feels more of an update, a response to the likes and dislikes of the HV10. I just wish the potential already inside the HV10 were brought out more.

I've pointed out that the specs on the HV10/HV20 are already the same rez specs as professional megabuck cams, so I'm not sure what you're looking for. As far as Canon responding to almost all of the 'wish list' items from the HV10, I think that's just SUPERB!!! Rarely rarely does a company respond so thoroughly to suggestions as did Canon. In fact Canon went above and beyond by adding 24p recoding....unprecedented in a cam anywhere near this price range....unprecedented. Unlike you I praise them for this, not criticize them.

If you're looking for 3D HD or holographic HD in a $1,000 cam, you won't find it here. As I said, I'm not sure what you're looking for, but I think you're not being at all realistic. ;)

I think i said it, HD. Again I complemented the upcoming HV20 on more than one point.

This camcorder sounds sweet. I had been thinking of getting a DVX100A (about $3,000). It's only 480p, but has tons of features and the most film like look. If the low light of this camcorder can come close to the DVX100A I may consider it instead, because I really do not want to spend $3,000. I'd have to upgrade my PC to edit the footage though. lol. Can't wait to hear how it performs in real world conditions. Hopefully it'll be good enough for low budget filmmaking.

HERE (http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20070207/zooma294.htm) is the first HV20 Japanese review.

Movies included!

Just use Google to translate...

Kyser

damn, the microphones are still facing up. WTF?

David, if you want any serious sound from a camcorder you might want to get THIS (http://www.amazon.com/Canon-Directional-50-Camcorders-Advanced/dp/B00005LD4W/ref=acc_glance_foto_ai_3_title/103-6585126-1648623).

Seriously, for what this camera offers... it is a STEAL for the price.

Kyser

the problem is that I always use an external fill-in light, so I no longer have space for the mic.

I honestly don't understand the design logic behind having the mic facing up. Even $500 camcorders have mics in front.

the problem is that I always use an external fill-in light, so I no longer have space for the mic.

I honestly don't understand the design logic behind having the mic facing up. Even $500 camcorders have mics in front.

Doesn't have a mic jack as well?

Well, you can't have everything. This camera gives you so much I just find it hard to put it down.

Well, you can't have everything. This camera gives you so much I just find it hard to put it down.

come to think of it, can the light on the camera be turned on manually for video recording? This way I can just "frost" the clear cover for a more diffused light, and add the external mic... and I'll get the best of both worlds.

come to think of it, can the light on the camera be turned on manually for video recording?

I would assume so.

Not 100% sure...

the video light on HV20 would probably be the same as that on HV10. it can be turned on easily by pressing a button on the side, but it is only effective within 5feet in very low light conditions, definately not a substitute for an ext video light.

for external mic, this thing may work:
http://www.cascade-audio.com/omni_pro.html
and it only costs $49. the mic can be amounted at the bottom of a cam where the tripod goes.

that is cool !!!!

you are correct, a light with 5 ft effectiveness is absolutely useless for my needs.

Cool little mic! I hope the cable isn't that short though... the specs link seems to be broken.
Are they still active?

yes, they are. they were taking orders on the phone as of Jan. 07.

Believe it or not the size of the signal matrix being 1920x1080 vs 1440x1080 matters little when it comes to final picture quality. You can have a 1920x1080 signal resolving only 200x200 on a test pattern. Most Pro HD camcorders can not resolve more than 600x600 on the test pattern with 1920x1080 signal matrix.

The true resolution of an HD cam being an HDV or not is still way below 1440x1080. A big reason people are so excited about the HV10/HV20 is that it scored the highest (about 630x690) on the true resolution test, meaning it has the sharpest HD picture, even surpassing the pro models. I can attest that my HV10's footage in bright light looks sharper than my OTA recordings.

Could you expand a bit on this methodology, GodobeHD? 630x690 what? Line pairs? Lines?

Bayer type sensors do not provide decent resolution up to the Nyquist limit, as Foveon type sensors do, because of the demosaicing and interpolation that's required (2 green pixels for every blue and red pixel). The HV-10 and HV-20 have almost a 3mp CMOS sensor. Call it 2000x1500 pixels. It generally takes close to 3 pixels (maybe a bit less) to resolve one line pair. Dividing those numbers by 3, we get a resolution of 667x 500 line pairs. If the HV-10 can get 630 line pairs from a vertical resolution of 1080p, that's too good to be true. What worries me is that these resolution figures you quote might be lines not line pairs. What are they?

I've pointed out that the specs on the HV10/HV20 are already the same rez specs as professional megabuck cams, so I'm not sure what you're looking for. As far as Canon responding to almost all of the 'wish list' items from the HV10, I think that's just SUPERB!!! Rarely rarely does a company respond so thoroughly to suggestions as did Canon. In fact Canon went above and beyond by adding 24p recoding....unprecedented in a cam anywhere near this price range....unprecedented. Unlike you I praise them for this, not criticize them.


It is quite remarkable that Canon have responded in this way to what many considered serious deficiencies in the HV-10. I've read reports of the whirring of the tape being very noticeable in the audio recording, and what makes it worse, unavoidable because the HV-10 does not have auxilliary inputs for an external mic. I think that was the killer for me and the main reason I didn't buy the camera.

However, I'm a little concerned that the HV-20 sensor is so small. The 1/2.7" sensor is actually just 6.7x5.4mm in size. That's tiny. It's the same size as in most of those ultra compact P&S still cameras that fit into your shirt pocket, such as the Sony T1 amd Dimage Xg. The Sony T1 is a 5mp camera. The Dimage Xg a 3mp camera, about the same pixel count as the HV-20.

Resolution might be adequate in good lighting. Dynamic range might be adequate in flat lighting. Unfortunately, one can't expect much in poor lighting or high contrast scenes. This is where the much more expensive, professional video cameras with larger sensors, will show their superiority.

Blown highlights and noisy shadows will be the things to look for when critically evaluating the HV-20.

Another question I have, which some of you videophiles might be able to answer, is in regard to the significance of 1920x1080p at 24 or 25 frames per sec, a new feature of the HV-20. How does this work out? 1920x1080p is the wide-screen 16:9 aspect ratio. 1440x1080p is 4:3. Are you guys saying that, in the process of compressing the signal and recording to the miniDV tape, 1920x1080p becomes 1440x1080p and then on playback, say on a 1920x1080p LCD monitor, the horizontal resolution is extrapolated back to 1920 pixels?

What about the slow frame rate of 24 frames/sec? Is there readily available and affordable software that performs the 3:2 pull down process to create a refresh rate of 72 hz, or do we have to suffer the slightly jerky effect for the sake of possibly marginally greater resolution?

I would have thought, with the current speed and power of modern desktop computers, we should be able to perform all sorts of wonderful video enhancements, frame doubling and tripling, noise removal, brightening, saturation increases etc, and yet I've failed to find any such program that claims to work on my Win XP 64 bit OS. I can't even get the complimentary WinDVD Creator Platinum 2 that shipped with my Asus motherboard to work on my system. The motherboard supports Pentium dual core processors which are necessary to run Win XP64, but the free software that came with the motherboard doesn't like WinXP 64. It seems there are a lot of things to consider here.

the sensor size is one of the largest in a consumer camcorder (heck, even prosumer too. My XH-A1 sensor size is only 1/3"). IIRC, the best of the best HD camera sensor size is 2/3", still smaller than dSLR.

Another thing to keep in mind, dSLR is packing around 8 to 12 MP, HD is only about 2.1 MP.

as an addition, sensor size is not the only important thing. Lens quality too. In theory (due to the sensor size) I should encounter blown highlights etc from XH-A1, but that's not the case. Low light quality is also very good. If the HV20 gives you problem with highlight, all you need to do is get a couple of ND filters (screw-on type, about $50 each) to tame the excessive lights coming into the sensor).

Could you expand a bit on this methodology, GodobeHD? 630x690 what? Line pairs? Lines?

Bayer type sensors do not provide decent resolution up to the Nyquist limit, as Foveon type sensors do, because of the demosaicing and interpolation that's required (2 green pixels for every blue and red pixel). The HV-10 and HV-20 have almost a 3mp CMOS sensor. Call it 2000x1500 pixels. It generally takes close to 3 pixels (maybe a bit less) to resolve one line pair. Dividing those numbers by 3, we get a resolution of 667x 500 line pairs. If the HV-10 can get 630 line pairs from a vertical resolution of 1080p, that's too good to be true. What worries me is that these resolution figures you quote might be lines not line pairs. What are they?
of course these were line numbers. 630 in horizontal and 690 in vertical. The video censor on HV10/HV20 I think uses 1920x1080 out of 1920x1500. It seems they have ways to go reach 1440x1080.

Another thing to keep in mind, dSLR is packing around 8 to 12 MP, HD is only about 2.1 MP.


That is the point I am making. If a DSLR like the 10mp Canon 400D were to have such tiny pixels as the HV-20, it would be a 46mp camera. Full frame 35mm would be around 120mp.

As you can see, I'm coming from the DSLR side of the market. My experience of small P&S cameras with sensors as small as the HV-20, such as the Sony T1, is that they are rather noisy, especially in low light. Using an ND filter might help prevent blown highlights but would actually increase noise in the shadows.

Nevertheless, if you say there's no problem in that respect then I'll have to accept that untill I see for myself. A 2/3" sensor is about 2.5x the size of the HV-20 sensor.

I'm actually also from the photography side but I also produce video. The 2/3" sensor is actually about 4x the surface area of 1/3" sensor. However, the price of a camera with this kind of sensor usually about 8x or more. :)

Regardless, try it out anyway. In the worst case, I'm sure you'll be happy with XH-A1 (3 CCD at 1/3" each with built in ND filters, real microphone etc, real pro quality lens) and it's only $3,500.

If the budget is there and size does not matter, you'll be hard pressed to find anything better than the XH-A1 for the time being.

The 2/3" sensor is actually about 4x the surface area of 1/3" sensor.

Maybe. But in the case of the XH-A1 you have the equivalent of 3 sensors, don't you? One for each color. That makes the XH-A1 sensor effectively about 3/4ths the area of a single 2/3" sensor and more than double the size of the HV-20's single 1/2.7" sensor.

In any case, there's no way I would pay $3500 for a videocam.

Maybe. But in the case of the XH-A1 you have the equivalent of 3 sensors, don't you? One for each color. That makes the XH-A1 sensor effectively about 3/4ths the area of a single 2/3" sensor and more than double the size of the HV-20's single 1/2.7" sensor.

In any case, there's no way I would pay $3500 for a videocam.The new Sony HDR-HC7 is only $1400 list and it has a better sensor than the old HC1. Canon XH-A1 is a much more intimidating footprint for a lot of stealth documentary work would want. But at least it has a LANC port for your remote zoom controller unlike the HV10 and HV20 cameras.

I do documentary work and I've never wanted to remotely control the zoom. Wouldn't one also want to pan (or any general camera direction change). Or is this for a use I know not of?

I do documentary work and I've never wanted to remotely control the zoom. Wouldn't one also want to pan (or any general camera direction change). Or is this for a use I know not of?The LANC port is where you need to plug your zoom controller into from your zoom controller on your tripod. Never heard of Varizoom?

LANC is also how you connect an underwater housing to the camera inside so you can control it underwater as well. Start and stop recording as well as zoom and manual focus are all run through the LANC port.

I do not know what you all are complaining about so much with the HV10...it's like you want pro features in a consumer camcorder. I just got back from the FL Keys with my wife. We took our HV10 and shot a bunch of video from daytime fishing, views from the hotel room, sunsets, to riding down Duval st. at night. The HV10 worked perfect for us. It is super compact and easy to cary and easy to use all the features. Unbelievable HD video!

All I need is longer battery life and a wide angle lens.

for the price HV10 is asking, it should at least have an accessory shoe to use an external mic. Its mic location is godawful.

The LANC port is where you need to plug your zoom controller into from your zoom controller on your tripod. Never heard of Varizoom?

LANC is also how you connect an underwater housing to the camera inside so you can control it underwater as well. Start and stop recording as well as zoom and manual focus are all run through the LANC port.
I see. So that zoom can be controlled from a tripod grip. Makes sense. I have used a single grip tripod so far. The zoom control would be better at the grip.

Never heard of Varizoom.

No underwater work done yet.

I can see how an LANC port would be useful. Still probably not a deal killer for me. My use these days is mostly handheld. (Used to do Weddings and Community theater - no more.)

I do wish the mics faced forward and not up! :rolleyes:

I do wish the mics faced forward and not up! :rolleyes:

apparently only the two of us are bothered with this. :confused: :confused:

apparently only the two of us are bothered with this. :confused: :confused:
I'm hoping there is some sort of reflective mechanism in the mic area so it does "look forward", but it seems nuts.

I'm hoping there is some sort of reflective mechanism in the mic area so it does "look forward", but it seems nuts.

Now THAT's asking too much! :p

Quite honestly, with all this hubbub about high-def recording, it surprises me that no one seems to care about the sound quality.

Now THAT's asking too much! :p

Quite honestly, with all this hubbub about high-def recording, it surprises me that no one seems to care about the sound quality.
Agreed. I don't want to have to add external mics. I want a compact design.

And I'll bet I'd need to add a Wide Angle adapter.

for the price HV10 is asking, it should at least have an accessory shoe to use an external mic. Its mic location is godawful.


well the mic on the new hv20 is on top also if the pics Ive seen are correct, BUT it did add an accessory shoe AND also an external mic jack . AND..will list less than the hv10 !

well the mic on the new hv20 is on top also if the pics Ive seen are correct, BUT it did add an accessory shoe AND also an external mic jack . AND..will list less than the hv10 !

Page 232 of Spring 2007 B&H catalog: HV10 is $949.95. HV20 is $1099.95.

Cyrano,
yes you'll still need to add WA adapter. Another pet peeve of mine. I'd rather have wider angle than more zoom. More zoom = better is the typical childlike mentality, IMO.

gvc,
the shoe is there but I still don't understand the logic of having the mic up to rather than just putting them at the front facing forward. Basically whichever HDV camera you buy (at consumer level) you'll need to add $150 or so for an external mic. :(

gvc,
the shoe is there but I still don't understand the logic of having the mic up to rather than just putting them at the front facing forward. Basically whichever HDV camera you buy (at consumer level) you'll need to add $150 or so for an external mic. :(


They probably surmised that typical home video consumers will be fine with it there but anyone with more serious videography aspirations will add an external mic anyway no matter where they put it?

They probably surmised that typical home video consumers will be fine with it there but anyone with more serious videography aspirations will add an external mic anyway no matter where they put it?
If that's true I don't think much of their design capabilities. It can be done correctly. A justification can be formulated but, it's a flaw, IMO.

I see. So that zoom can be controlled from a tripod grip. Makes sense. I have used a single grip tripod so far. The zoom control would be better at the grip.

Never heard of Varizoom.

No underwater work done yet.

I can see how an LANC port would be useful. Still probably not a deal killer for me. My use these days is mostly handheld. (Used to do Weddings and Community theater - no more.)

I do wish the mics faced forward and not up! :rolleyes:

Actually the tiny HV10 remote will do most of the LANC functions and more. Just tape the remote on the grip and you can control the HV10 like a Lanc.

I imagine the underwater stuff can be done in the same fashion with the remote in a water sealed plastic cover.

If that's true I don't think much of their design capabilities. It can be done correctly. A justification can be formulated but, it's a flaw, IMO.

The HV20 camera offers more in image quality when compared to cameras twice its price. Go to any professional video forum, everyone is drooling over the HV20!
(I mean forum's that just pertain to video cameras, nothing else.)

I'll GLADLY buy an external mic.

You can't have everything on one camera in this price range. As far as most people/professionals are concerned... this camera is a steal.

Just check around if you don't believe me.

Kyser

I've checked around. I'll probably buy this camera. I need to be able to put the camera in a jacket pocket and pull it out and shoot.
I used a cheapo Canon ZR200 (with an addon Wide Angle lens) in France, Switzerland and Italy for a couple of weeks this last fall and although the SD images are soft and non-Optical Image Stabilized, they are thrilling to view. Street-life and human interactions are what I'm interested in. Of course scenery as well. I would rather not have any add-ons although there will be times I will use them.

I do think it is poor judgement to have mics aiming up. That's just logic. But hopefully it won't be a deal killer for me. :)

Looking forward to your hands-on review!! I won't be getting mine until this summer.

Thanks for taking the time to look into it. I'll do some testing with the on camera mic as well and report back.

April can't come soon enough!

No camera is perfect, but this camera looks to be well worth the money.

Kyser

THough the scheduled date is April for HV20 launching, is there any possibility of this arriving earlier. ? Usually some of these could be available in Japan before it is released in US and other parts of the word.

....Just can't wait !!!!!!

Now THAT's asking too much! :p

Quite honestly, with all this hubbub about high-def recording, it surprises me that no one seems to care about the sound quality.

David, I have owned virtually all of the small HD cams and I'll tell you as far as audio quality is concerned, they are all far closer in that respect than their video quality. So I think there's no point in pointing to one cam when they're all very similar in audio whether the mike is facing up, down or inside out.

Ken,

no disrespect, but I also own several handycams with mics facing up. When I need to zoom in, the sound doesn't jive with the picture. I also record lots of parades, speeches etc where the sound source is located way in front. Recording with two cameras (one with mic facing up and another with mic facing forward) the clarity in the recording is night and day with a serious disadvantage with the one which mics facing up. Just the fact that you can't hear the difference and/or not care about the difference doesn't mean the difference is not there and very clear.

PS: I've also tried several cameras, both with mics facing up but one is closer to the user (hence to the tape transport) and another up front (still facing up, but further away from the tape transport). 100% of the time, the one which mics closer to the user pick up the transport mechanism sound during low sound level. Again, if this doesn't bother you, that's fine. It also doesn't bother me if the camcorder cost $300. But having this on a $1,000+ camcorder is plain idiotic. Claiming it doesn't make a difference is even moreso (I'm referring the idiocy to the manufacturer, not you).

Actually the tiny HV10 remote will do most of the LANC functions and more. Just tape the remote on the grip and you can control the HV10 like a Lanc.

I imagine the underwater stuff can be done in the same fashion with the remote in a water sealed plastic cover.
Does that mean that the zoom speeds will vary according to finger pressure on the remote buttons?

And does the sensor on the camera read from the back?

Anyone?
Thanks!

The pressure-sensitive button allows you to ease into zooms, hold a steady speed, accelerate into a crash zoom.

PS: what "sensor on the camera" are you referring to?

Ken,

no disrespect, but I also own several handycams with mics facing up. When I need to zoom in, the sound doesn't jive with the picture. I also record lots of parades, speeches etc where the sound source is located way in front. Recording with two cameras (one with mic facing up and another with mic facing forward) the clarity in the recording is night and day with a serious disadvantage with the one which mics facing up. Just the fact that you can't hear the difference and/or not care about the difference doesn't mean the difference is not there and very clear.

PS: I've also tried several cameras, both with mics facing up but one is closer to the user (hence to the tape transport) and another up front (still facing up, but further away from the tape transport). 100% of the time, the one which mics closer to the user pick up the transport mechanism sound during low sound level. Again, if this doesn't bother you, that's fine. It also doesn't bother me if the camcorder cost $300. But having this on a $1,000+ camcorder is plain idiotic. Claiming it doesn't make a difference is even moreso (I'm referring the idiocy to the manufacturer, not you).

I'm trying to think of a reason why these mics on the HV-10 and HV-20 are facing upwards.. If you had them facing forward they should pick up sound from the front of the camera more clearly, but much less clearly from behind the camera. There might seem to be no logic in wanting to pick up sound from behind or above. I have virtually no experience shooting video, but I can imagine certain situations where it might be useful, for example shooting bird life in a rainforest where bird calls are coming from all directions, or shooting scenes at a party where people out of sight are laughing and making comments which one might want to record.

I would also think, if one is shooting whilst walking (do people do this when an image stabiliser is available?) the sound of tramping feet would not be so prominent, with mics facing upwards.

Perhaps it is thought by Canon that anyone who is really concerned about sound quality will want to attach an external mic, which you can now do with the HV-20. Do Canon have a range of compact, mic accessories for this camera? What sort of additional cost are we looking at? Can such external mics be attached to the camera body or do they need their own stand with long leads to the camera?

Just had a look at the Canon web site and see they have an accessory shotgun mic for the HV-20, claiming 'near professional quality' for $199. No cables since it fits in the accessory shoe and is powered by the camera's battery. For anyone serious about sound quality, I guess this has to be a required accessory. Perhaps Canon had no motive in improving the built-in mic.

By the time one has bought the additional mic, the wide-angle and telephoto converters, the cost of the camera will have increased by at least 50%. I think the wide-angle converter will be a necessity, but I don't see it listed yet.

The pressure-sensitive button allows you to ease into zooms, hold a steady speed, accelerate into a crash zoom.

PS: what "sensor on the camera" are you referring to?
The sensor that reads the remote control.

Thanks for your answer.

EDIT: Just wanted to add that zooming is something I use more often for reframing. But a gentle pull-back or move-in or accelerated zoom can work. But, like fancy, funky transitions, need the moment to call for them to be used.
IMO, of course. :)
Glad to hear the buttons are pressure sensitive.

I have virtually no experience shooting video, but I can imagine certain situations where it might be useful, for example shooting bird life in a rainforest where bird calls are coming from all directions, or shooting scenes at a party where people out of sight are laughing and making comments which one might want to record.

I would also think, if one is shooting whilst walking (do people do this when an image stabiliser is available?) the sound of tramping feet would not be so prominent, with mics facing upwards.

Perhaps it is thought by Canon that anyone who is really concerned about sound quality will want to attach an external mic, which you can now do with the HV-20.

The most important sound to pick up is that which comes from what the camera sees, front sound.
Picking up the sound of walking is not a bad thing. And removing footsteps is easy in the mixing stage.

I'm looking forward to user reports. A computer magazine, I have, complained about the HV10 up facing mics saying it picked up breathing sounds of the shooter. But it gave the camera very high marks overall.

I don't want to attach a mic to the camera. It really, really should pick up sound from the direction it sees. This is just form following function.
Would there be more concern if the mics faced down or backward? :)

Of course this is swinging before the bell has sounded, but it is a logical concern.

EDIT: Just wanted to add that I am very excited about this Camcorder and hope the sound will do. I just saw some video from an HV10 and it was AWESOME! Smooth and steady even when handheld and great clarity.

Can anyone tell me how the 24 frame setting would differ when it comes to interlacing? Would the rendered results look better in most peoples DVD players? (Or worse, or no difference?)

Would it have any effect on jaggies and/or judder?

Thanks.

Just had a look at the Canon web site and see they have an accessory shotgun mic for the HV-20, claiming 'near professional quality' for $199. No cables since it fits in the accessory shoe and is powered by the camera's battery. For anyone serious about sound quality, I guess this has to be a required accessory. Perhaps Canon had no motive in improving the built-in mic.

By the time one has bought the additional mic, the wide-angle and telephoto converters, the cost of the camera will have increased by at least 50%. I think the wide-angle converter will be a necessity, but I don't see it listed yet.

Baaryz, the same mic can be had for quite a bit less. Here is an example of a reputable seller - DM-50 at B&H (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=201377&is=REG)
Or even here - http://www.ubid.com/actn/opn/getpage.asp?AuctionId=801235314&uwb=uwbc10397
Same is true for the WA/T converters

Looking into getting a HD camcorder and like what I see so far of the HV20. I'm still trying to decide between SD and HD. If I do go with HD, this will be the camcorder I go with. Please help me with some basic questions I have which hopefully will help others on the fence between SD and HD as well.

1) Does the HV20 use the same DV tapes that standard definition camcorders use? If so, how much recording time can we expect to get in HD and SD off of one tape?

2) My editing software does not currently support HD. Can I edit film that I have taken in SD even though it was captured in HD? This way I can have the hard copy in HD and always go back and edit in HD later when I upgrade software.

3) I don't have a HD DVD burner on my computer nor do I have a HD-DVD player in my theater set up. If I hook the HV20 directly to my setup using HDMI I can view in HD of course. Other wise, even if I have HD editing software, can I watch my edited movies in HD? You can't burn the HD movies to a DVD and play it on a standard DVD player and get HD right? I'm guessing that I'd need to buy HD editing software, HD-DVD burner for my computer, and HD-DVD player for my theater to view the movies in HD on my TV. If so, the price of this camcorder goes through the roof! How are you guys viewing edited HD movies on you displays?

4) related to question 1 & 2, even though I've recored everything in HD, can it be treated as SD and played in other camcorders as SD? In other words, can I take the tape filmed in HD and give it to my father who has an SD camcorder and have him play the tape so he can dump the movies into his computer to edit in SD?

I'm asking these questions because I'm expecting my first child in about a month. Even though I don't have the capability to edit the HD now or burn HD discs, I'm only going to get one opportunity to capture events like her first steps, or her first words once. I'd like to capture these events in HD and keep them on the tapes so that one day I'll be able to do all of those things. However, if I can't do anything with these videos like editing them now in SD, or distributing them via DVD to grandparents to be, maybe I'll buy the best quality SD camera, and upgrade later when everything else has caught up.

Thanks guys.

Looking into getting a HD camcorder and like what I see so far of the HV20. I'm still trying to decide between SD and HD. If I do go with HD, this will be the camcorder I go with. Please help me with some basic questions I have which hopefully will help others on the fence between SD and HD as well.

1) Does the HV20 use the same DV tapes that standard definition camcorders use? If so, how much recording time can we expect to get in HD and SD off of one tape?

2) My editing software does not currently support HD. Can I edit film that I have taken in SD even though it was captured in HD? This way I can have the hard copy in HD and always go back and edit in HD later when I upgrade software.

3) I don't have a HD DVD burner on my computer nor do I have a HD-DVD player in my theater set up. If I hook the HV20 directly to my setup using HDMI I can view in HD of course. Other wise, even if I have HD editing software, can I watch my edited movies in HD? You can't burn the HD movies to a DVD and play it on a standard DVD player and get HD right? I'm guessing that I'd need to buy HD editing software, HD-DVD burner for my computer, and HD-DVD player for my theater to view the movies in HD on my TV. If so, the price of this camcorder goes through the roof! How are you guys viewing edited HD movies on you displays?

4) related to question 1 & 2, even though I've recored everything in HD, can it be treated as SD and played in other camcorders as SD? In other words, can I take the tape filmed in HD and give it to my father who has an SD camcorder and have him play the tape so he can dump the movies into his computer to edit in SD?

I'm asking these questions because I'm expecting my first child in about a month. Even though I don't have the capability to edit the HD now or burn HD discs, I'm only going to get one opportunity to capture events like her first steps, or her first words once. I'd like to capture these events in HD and keep them on the tapes so that one day I'll be able to do all of those things. However, if I can't do anything with these videos like editing them now in SD, or distributing them via DVD to grandparents to be, maybe I'll buy the best quality SD camera, and upgrade later when everything else has caught up.

Thanks guys.

1. In theory you can use the same miniDVD tapes. However, even for miniDVrecordings, I always use professional tapes cost around $16 each for 63 minute, $19 for 85 minutes). Length wise, they will be exactly the same 63 minutes for both miniDV and HDV.

2. You can output in SD LBX or SD Stretch (anamorphic). Keep the HD recording for the future. FWIW, downscaled HDV recordings tend to be better looking (IMHO) than straight SD recordings.

3. I can't answer question 3 in great details for I don't know much about home editing. However, past Monday night I went to a Sony seminar and they showed me HDV recording using FX7 being edited on a Vaio laptop with 2 GB RAM, 1.66(?) Ghz) with 256 Mb video RAM and using Vegas Movie Studio (approx US$130). They basically can do simple editing, colour correction on the fly. Fades, wipes, are rendered, of course.

4. No. HDV tape can only be played on HDV machines. I recommend Sony HVR M15U to make backup copy of the tape on full-sized broadcast DV tape (up to 273 minutes in length, to safe money) for arcival purpose and make another copy in SD to be distributed to your friends and family (you can backup your HDV straight to SD using that machine).

1) Does the HV20 use the same DV tapes that standard definition camcorders use? If so, how much recording time can we expect to get in HD and SD off of one tape?

Yes. regular $2 miniDV will do. no difference in PQ from the HD kind. Each tape stores 60min. (same as SD)

2) My editing software does not currently support HD. Can I edit film that I have taken in SD even though it was captured in HD? This way I can have the hard copy in HD and always go back and edit in HD later when I upgrade software.

If the software can convert HD to SD it probably can edit HD too. HD editing software costs only $60, or on ebay only $40.

3) I don't have a HD DVD burner on my computer nor do I have a HD-DVD player in my theater set up. If I hook the HV20 directly to my setup using HDMI I can view in HD of course. Other wise, even if I have HD editing software, can I watch my edited movies in HD? You can't burn the HD movies to a DVD and play it on a standard DVD player and get HD right? I'm guessing that I'd need to buy HD editing software, HD-DVD burner for my computer, and HD-DVD player for my theater to view the movies in HD on my TV. If so, the price of this camcorder goes through the roof! How are you guys viewing edited HD movies on you displays?

No additional HD DVD burner or HD-DVD disk is needed for HD playback, only an HD-DVD player, which costs around $300 (Toshiba HD-A1). You burn the HDV footage onto a regular DVD (4.7GB) with a PC and play in an HD-DVD player or a PS3.

4) related to question 1 & 2, even though I've recored everything in HD, can it be treated as SD and played in other camcorders as SD? In other words, can I take the tape filmed in HD and give it to my father who has an SD camcorder and have him play the tape so he can dump the movies into his computer to edit in SD?

No. SD tape will play in HD cams, but not the HD tape in SD cam.


I'm asking these questions because I'm expecting my first child in about a month. Even though I don't have the capability to edit the HD now or burn HD discs, I'm only going to get one opportunity to capture events like her first steps, or her first words once. I'd like to capture these events in HD and keep them on the tapes so that one day I'll be able to do all of those things. However, if I can't do anything with these videos like editing them now in SD, or distributing them via DVD to grandparents to be, maybe I'll buy the best quality SD camera, and upgrade later when everything else has caught up.

Thanks guys.
Congratulations. That's what I use my Canon HV10 for as well, mostly for recording my little kids.

Thanks for the feedback. I'm leaning more toward this camcorder. I just want to clarify something. The Sony HVR M15U which David mentioned lists for $2,800. That is not a option for me. It is important that I'm able to get the videos I take, which will be in HD onto my father's, the grandfather to be's, computer so he can edit them. He's using Sony Vegas six, which I believe will edit HD material. My question is how to get that material over to him?

Can I burn my HD content onto a standard DVD, have him upload that material, edit it in HD, and then burn it onto a standard DVD which I can then view in HD over the Xbox 360's external HD? If that's the case, I'm sold. I'm assuming that if I send that DVD to relatives who don't have a HD DVD player, they'd be able to watch the disc but only in SD. Is that right?

Thanks for the feedback. I'm leaning more toward this camcorder. I just want to clarify something. The Sony HVR M15U which David mentioned lists for $2,800. That is not a option for me. It is important that I'm able to get the videos I take, which will be in HD onto my father's, the grandfather to be's, computer so he can edit them. He's using Sony Vegas six, which I believe will edit HD material. My question is how to get that material over to him?

Can I burn my HD content onto a standard DVD, have him upload that material, edit it in HD, and then burn it onto a standard DVD which I can then view in HD over the Xbox 360's external HD? If that's the case, I'm sold. I'm assuming that if I send that DVD to relatives who don't have a HD DVD player, they'd be able to watch the disc but only in SD. Is that right?

You will need to capture the footage to your computer and then copy the files to a DVD to transport.
This could be a hard task as 60 min of DV/HDV footage is roughly 13GB and you will need 3-4 single layer DVDs to fit it. Your best bet is to loan the camcorder to your father so he can capture it himself. I think you need Vegas 7 for HDV editing, but could be wrong.

You can also use an external hard drive to transport the footage, but you still need to capture it from the camera to a computer first.

Yes, you can store the HD edited footage to a standard DVD and play it on HD player (your Xbox 360), but a single layer DVD (4.7GB) will hold only 22 min of HD video. Your relatives will not be able to watch the HD video without HD DVD player, but your father can encode SD version of his edits for them.

Flyhigh, Sony Vegas 6 will do HDV editing, but not as fast as Vegas 7.
One hour HDV is about 13GB, three DVDs are plenty to store the data. It works out that one 4.7GB DVD can hold 22.5min of HDV off the HV20/HV10. So the easiest way of distributing the HD video to your family is to do the following:
1. capture your HDV to PC by setting up a timer for 21min. (63min tape would take three times of capturing). that way without splitting it in Vegas which takes a long time you will already have HDV the size of 4.5GB in m2t files.
2. your family can edit the m2t files with Vegas 6 and author them into HD-DVD or just play them on their computer with a free VLCmedia player.

Ok - camcorder newbie question:

Does recording in 24p filming require anything special as far DVD and TV requirements. ie, I was planning on authoring to HD-DVD with the toshiba HD-A1, which I understand does not have 24p output and I don't think my tv (samsung 7178) has native 24p input.

Am I mixing up apples and oranges? Will I be able to get benefits of 24p film recording?

-Signed, confused.

Flyhigh, Sony Vegas 6 will do HDV editing, but not as fast as Vegas 7.
One hour HDV is about 13GB, three DVDs are plenty to store the data. It works out that one 4.7GB DVD can hold 22.5min of HDV off the HV20/HV10.



A single layer disk will fit 22 minutes HD give or take a little depending on the choice of audio used (I use Dolby 5.1 surround and get about 20 minutes on a disk)

But there is nothing preventing one from using a double layer disk. With DL disks I can get about 40 minutes on (at 25000K). If the bitrate is dropped slightly to 19000 (you won't notice any degridation) you will get about 50 minutes on a disk.

But there is nothing preventing one from using a double layer disk. With DL disks I can get about 40 minutes on (at 25000K). If the bitrate is dropped slightly to 19000 (you won't notice any degridation) you will get about 50 minutes on a disk.
Is the layer change noticeable?
Thanks

if working with Vegas 7, will I be able to make HD DVD-on-DVD (playable on HD DVD player, I mean) from HDV files?

Is the layer change noticeable?
Thanks
No.... you don't even know one is there the change over is so smooth. You can't use cheap disks though. I will use nothing less than verbatim DL disks... I have not had a failure yet with those. It is however pretty much hit and miss with other disks.

blackbill,

I already have a DVD+R DL that stutters every now and then (I know it's not the data, but the disc itself). Can I just do a disc copy to another DL media? or will I lose the layer-change point? I'll be copying the original disc using Nero 6.

if working with Vegas 7, will I be able to make HD DVD-on-DVD (playable on HD DVD player, I mean) from HDV files?

No. There are one 2 programs that I know of that will create hybrid HD DVD's... Pinnacle studio 10.7 and Ulead movie factory 5.

Of the 2 programs, studio is the better one... it has a plugin that was specifically built creating hd dvd's. The Ulead products don't have the COMPLETE ability to create the disks.... only the files, then you have to take those files and burn them with Nero or similar.

I do all my editing in Sony Vegas7 and then export as M2V/WAV.... import to studio and burn. You can do it ALL in studio (capture/edit/burn), but then vegas puts out a much better quality edit.


ADDED:
Sorry... I'm not sure but I MAY have misread you question... you can use vegas to do your capture/edit and export the files for burning... but vegas itself will not do the burn.... if that 's what you meant.

blackbill,

I already have a DVD+R DL that stutters every now and then (I know it's not the data, but the disc itself). Can I just do a disc copy to another DL media? or will I lose the layer-change point? I'll be copying the original disc using Nero 6.

You will not be able to copy the disk. They are written in UDF2.5 so your burner will not even be able to read the disk (XP will see the disk as RAW and empty) A standard burner can WRITE UDF2.5... but can not read it.

Just got e-mail from BH. HV20 is in stock.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?A=ShowProduct&is=REG&Q=&O=&sku=481076 (http://)