Warning re Windows Vista Upgrade: don't do it [Text View]

namechamps

02-01-07, 12:18 PM

Step 1) Copy all personal data (not programs) to seperate drive, or external drive.
Step 2) Run Vista DVD and select advanced options and kill the partition with bad Vista install. Create new partition and install clean.
Step 3) Install all your programs and applications
Step 4) Ghost your partition and save as backup. (Note: need special verison of ghost to work with Vista).

NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER (and EVER) do a Windows "Upgrade". For most users it never worked for 95 to 98, 98 to Me, 98 or Me to XP, and now XP to Vista. Yeah it works for some people but for every one person it works it kills 10 systems and has long term "weird" issues for another 50.

Ever version Microsoft promises that this versions upgrade is better than the last. Don't by the hype. ALWAYS do a clean install. Backup your documents. Once you have the system tweaked the way you like (drivers, applications, setting) use Ghost or another program to backup the entire partition. In future to "reinstall" you simply run Ghost and copy over the OS partition. Remember save documents to another partition AND/OR back the up regularly.

BTW I Work in corp technical support and yes already we have had executives install Vista over their XP Professional Laptops and complain that they can't connect to the VPN, where is their mail, etc. Worse thing is they bought Vista Premium HOME on the corporate card and it is useless for us. We likely (eventually) will move to Vista but it sure as hell wont be HOME Premium.

quik99

02-01-07, 12:22 PM

They have changed the upgrade cd. You can no longer insert a XP cd to do a upgrade. upgrades MUST be done from inside the os. U can do a clean install from insdie the os telling it to format your drive. Also I read if you have a bare HD and boot from the vista dvd during install dont put in a cd key..let the install complete it will install a 30 trial of vista..then run the vista upgrade dvd from inside the 30day tril and do a clean install over vista trial. this just keeps you from having to install XP first if you were doing a install to a bare drive.

eq_shadimar

02-01-07, 12:45 PM

I agree with all the suggestions listed above (especially keeping the OS and Data drives separate) but I will just add that this is why I love Norton Ghost or some such program. Stick in a spare HD, ghost your current OS HD to the spare and then don't worry if the upgrade nukes your OS. You just go back to the Ghost copy.

I really like the Windows OS but it is times like these that remind me of those cute PC and MAC commercials :)

Laters,
Jeff

MichaelJHuman

02-01-07, 12:45 PM

Early adopters often pay a harsh price. I will not promote or decry Vista, but if your PC's working good, you could certainly hold off.

XP was a HUGE improvement over Win 9x in every way I can think of. I moved to XP ASAP. But Vista's potential improvements are not as significant. Security is a potential reason, but it seems prudent to wait a few months to see what the verdict is. That is, does Vista do a better job of protecting your system from malware?

davwin

02-01-07, 12:50 PM

I agree with boxwes and did the same on my machine... A new OS is always a gamble (driver support, hardware incompatibilities, etc, etc) its just too risky for your important data so back it up, dual boot or both.

SamwisetheBrave

02-01-07, 12:54 PM

Thanks for the info. Sounds like I should wait and buy a new computer with Vista installed.

Head Shot

02-01-07, 12:55 PM

My 2 cents here: I have never ever upgraded from previous OS version- way too much bugs and conflicts that gets generated with more time wasted trying to ID it and fix it. I always have second hard drive in the comp ( if tower/desktop) that I transfer all pertinent data first. There is only a clean install on reformatted HD or blank new HD.

Mark, you might also want to purchase a rather inexpensive internal hard drive sleeve that you insert using one of the bay. Therefore you can have as many variations of OS you want. Simply take out one OS drive with another same or newer OS version. This allows me to have a dedicated drive for gaming, another for video editing, and another for business. The second or more drive in the comp will act as server/database drive.

SyHD

02-01-07, 01:15 PM

jabbertrack

02-01-07, 01:28 PM

My Vista upgrade experience went off without a hitch in the beta. I just upgraded XP.

When it came out the other day I used the download from Windows Marketplace (Circut City is the retailer on that apperantly). It downloaded 3 files... I ran the exe and it was able to do a clean install keeping all my old files in a "windows.old" folder.

I'm a happy early adoptor. I'm a computer geek and I know I could fix any problems that came up but none did and my Vista install works great. No need to "format c:" anymore... yippe!

jabbertrack

02-01-07, 01:32 PM

I have Vista installed on a different partition. Right now its just sitting there doing nothing. The drivers are not mature enough yet for me to use it as an everyday OS. I seem to click more often in Vista than in XP. Microsoft went crazy adding more dialog windows ...as if XP isn't riddled with them already.
You're talking about UAC (User Access Control).

If you really don't like the dialog boxes and don't appreciate the extra level of security you can go to the user's control panel and turn it off for that user and it will be just like XP.

and I'm not sure what you're talking about with XP being riddled with prompts... maybe let us know which OS has a number of prompts you're comfortable with... and it's not going to be an Apple OS I can guaranty that... forget about most of the Linux flavors... those will wear your mouse out... unless you don't load the UI

Kosty

02-01-07, 01:39 PM

Yepper , Clean install is the only way. Transfer all you data to a CD or to another harddrive on your netwoek. Burn to CD or DVD anything critcal and have vista reformat the harddrive.

marcusm750

02-01-07, 01:40 PM

and worse: there is no way to uninstall it :mad:

Remember WipeDisk from the good ol' Norton Utilities? I have a DOS-boot floppy with that on there that I use on computers that just won't behave. Mu-hahahaha! :)

heavyharmonies

02-01-07, 01:43 PM

Age-old advice that I adhere to:

Never EVER upgrade to a new operating system until after the first service pack comes out.

Otherwise you're just a beta tester...

SyHD

02-01-07, 01:48 PM

You're talking about UAC (User Access Control).

If you really don't like the dialog boxes and don't appreciate the extra level of security you can go to the user's control panel and turn it off for that user and it will be just like XP.

and I'm not sure what you're talking about with XP being riddled with prompts... maybe let us know which OS has a number of prompts you're comfortable with... and it's not going to be an Apple OS I can guaranty that... forget about most of the Linux flavors... those will wear your mouse out... unless you don't load the UI

Yes I am comparing it with Mac OS X ...I use both platforms ...nature of my job.

Head Shot

02-01-07, 01:49 PM

Age-old advice that I adhere to:

Never EVER upgrade to a new operating system until after the first service pack comes out.

Otherwise you're just a beta tester...

Funny you should mention Service Pack, its due out this summer. Press report was all over this BEFORE Vista was officially sold.

jabbertrack

02-01-07, 01:52 PM

Yes I am comparing it with Mac OS X ...I use both platforms ...nature of my job.
I use OS X part-time at home and color me confused... if you're saying XP has more annoying prompts than OS X then I .... I just don't know.

anyway... check out the UAC toggle

redjr

02-01-07, 01:57 PM

I can never understand why people would want to take a perfectly good configuration and try to improve it?

Sorry to hear
Because some of us just want the 'latest-n-greatest' OS - associated risk notwithstanding! After all, we're talking about MS products here. :D

hconwell

02-01-07, 02:03 PM

You should always do a full backup before installing a major upgrade. You should do a full backup every week or so anyway.A full backup is good. But the best way to protect yourself in such a scenario is to "Ghost" your drive prior to performing the upgrade. You'll need Symantec Ghost and a spare empty hard drive with at least the same capacity as your operational hard drive. I know that's an expensive addition to the process ... but if things don't go as planned, you can be back in business with your old install in a matter of a few minutes.

Rebuilding your old install from a "full backup" might be many hours of work. Using a program like Ghost insures that all will be OK and quickly revertable.

redjr

02-01-07, 02:22 PM

PeterS

02-01-07, 02:59 PM

NEVER Upgrade an OS over an old one in a Production Environment!

ALWAYS Backup and do a clean install.

Mark, if I were you I would backup. Wipe the drive. Install Vista - reinstall the apps you need and restore your data. Vista is WONDERFUL, but I have NEVER had a 100% update over an existing OS install. Too dangerous.

K.L.

02-01-07, 03:26 PM

Re: OP

Didn't you know you should wait for SP1 for all Windows products? SP1 for Vista is on track for the late 2007 already...

Dave Mack

02-01-07, 03:59 PM

Sorry to hear it, Mark!
Good luck, bro!

:) d

Baronken

02-01-07, 04:31 PM

I can never understand why people would want to take a perfectly good configuration and try to improve it?Yea, your DVD player is just fine, why would you want HD?! :p

egcarter

02-01-07, 04:33 PM

Never do OS upgrades of any ilk. Always do a clean install.

Eric

JosephShaw

02-01-07, 05:29 PM

If you feel the urge to upgrade, backup your system and do a parallel install instead of an upgrade. Dual boot until you feel it is safe to delete XP from your system. It will save you some heartache.

Vista upgrade is not like the previous editions where you could install with just a valid key. You really have to upgrade the XP install now, so you can't do parallel installations as easily as you once could.

diamond.g

02-01-07, 05:49 PM

Vista upgrade is not like the previous editions where you could install with just a valid key. You really have to upgrade the XP install now, so you can't do parallel installations as easily as you once could.
Sorta (http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=5932) true. It can be done. Just not as easy as it used to be.

sphinx99

02-01-07, 06:54 PM

I upgraded four machines with generally negative results.

- Custom P4/2.8GHz, 1.5GB RAM, Radeon 9800 Pro, ~TB disk. Nero is broken, games are much slower, DVD player isn't working and my Epson R800 printer driver causes crashes whenever I try to print. Applications (that work) run smoother however and the UI is nice. This was Ultimate edition.

- Toshiba G35-AV650 HD-DVD laptop, Core Duo 2.0GHz, 1GB RAM, Geforce Go 7600. Terrible terrible experience. Couldn't upgrade, couldn't do a clean install. Struggled with driver issues for everything. Talked to others with Toshiba laptops who are in a similar boat... nobody seems to be able to get all the hardware working and many can't even complete an install. Ultimate here too. I'm experiencing freezes during install, blue screens and of course Toshiba's steller customer support for Vista migration.

- Dell Dimension 9200 - E6700 Core 2, 4GB RAM, 150GB Raptor. Vista business runs nice and smooth. No real hiccups but there was not much software running on these to break. Oracle databases seem to run OK under Vista, if that matters to anyone!

- Old 1GHz machine with 512MB RAM and an 815E chipset... believe it or not, Vista Home Premium installs reliably on this clunker. It's rather slow versus XP but for web surfing duty it's actually passable. Of course, with Creative dropping support for their soundblaster cards under Vista, and with nVidia and ATI dropping support for their older cards (which run Vista without Aero just fine) getting drivers for everything was a nightmare. I can't believe Vista doesn't have support for the 3com etherfast 100mbit cards. These things are still insanely popular...

A few friends have also upgraded and not one of them has had a smooth experience. My recommendation is to strongly reconsider an upgrade to Vista for your existing computer and instead stick with XP until you are buying (or building) a new computer... upgrade then and with an OEM license of Vista. You'll save a lot of headache and hassle. Vista upgrades seem to be a labor of love... you can make it work but it's going to take several hours.

wormraper

02-01-07, 07:00 PM

There is another option to do a clean install using the upgraded disc. Install whatever version of vista you have using your Install disc but don't enter in a cd key. That will allow a full install of the 30 day trial. Inside Vista do an upgrade from the desktop. Boot into your new Vista OS without having to touch anything of XP and go through broken processes.

Shagster

02-01-07, 07:06 PM

Worm, that was the trick I was gonna say that could be used without the xp being used at all....

moore

02-01-07, 07:21 PM

Age-old advice that I adhere to:

Never EVER upgrade to a new operating system until after the first service pack comes out.

Otherwise you're just a beta tester...

I don't think this is fair. I used W2000 Pro and XP Pro immediately after release on several machines and had no issues. In the case of 2000, one install was RC2 on an older machine and I didn't upgrade to the proper version for 2 years, and I was amazed at the stability. Compared to 98SE it was a rock.

I installed Vista Ultimate yesterday and it is working just fine running all options on an A64 2800+, Radeon 9600, 2GB ram, 120GB disk system. You could buy such a system for probably $600 sans monitor these days.

Definitely do the backup/clean install as others have said. NEVER upgrade in place. I haven't needed it yet (1 day), but my XP disk is sitting there ready to be swapped in. Plus I have month-old backups of data. That's a comforting feeling.

Vista is nice so far. I like it. More intuitive than previous versions of windows, but more 'clean' than OSX.

edit: noting Sphinx' post above, I wouldn't do this on a notebook. They are notorious for having serious driver issues, and it's hard to strip things down if you get stuck.

JosephShaw

02-01-07, 09:16 PM

Sorta (http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=5932) true. It can be done. Just not as easy as it used to be.

Yeah, read that about two hours ago. That's not even what I'd call tedious or hard. You install, and then install again. It just takes twice as long.

Head Shot

02-01-07, 09:51 PM

If you buy branded laptops, I'm afraid a clean install will not be as easy. Those recovery disks that comes with some laptops are notorious for installing junk programs that are well-integrated. Rare to find a company that still provides separate drivers.

Spektricide

02-01-07, 10:52 PM

I end up doing a clean format every 6 months anyway. Too much tinkering with experimental programs and such. But I always do a clean format before every OS install. Maybe it's a leftover paranoia from the days of Win 95'

mobius

02-01-07, 11:06 PM

I've had my share of PC problems- both software and hardware. The number one thing that I can recommend to anyone is to buy a battery backup. The unstable power in my *old* house has cratered numerous mainboards and ram. Since I bought a UPS, I haven't had a problem in 2-3 years.

I know that's off-topic, but it's good advice IMO.

alfbinet

02-01-07, 11:34 PM

I am 51 years old and am not a techno geek. I have XP Media Center. Sounds like I should not upgrade. I use Outlook Express for my email, I don't want to lose that. I have a standalone hard drive and can backup my entire system, including program files, but just seems to be too much of a hassle. I upgrade my pcs about every two years and am do for a upgrade on hardware. I think I will just wait to purchase my new laptop with Vista installed.

aaronwt

02-01-07, 11:41 PM

Since the mid 90's I've upgraded to the new OS right away. I'll probably hold off a few weeks on Vista Ultimate. I'll just do a full backup and if I have problems just reinstall the backup. If I do have problems that will be a good reason to put another PC together so I can do a clean install.

benwaggoner

02-02-07, 01:42 AM

Speaking of the "never upgrade Windows in place" meme, note that Vista has a much different way it runs updates, so it should be enormously more reliable than with older versions of Windows. Also, the guts of the OS aren't as big a jump from XP as XP was from 98 - it's more like the 2000 to XP update.

In my own experience, I've done three Vista installs. My year-old Dell laptop took Ultimate without a hitch. My custom built dual Xeon workstation happily went dual boot Ultimate 32-bit and 64-bit. I had to wait a bit for the Audigy drivers to get good enough, but it's working great now.

I've been running Vista Ultimate as my main email/web/writing/presentation/demo machine since it went RTM in mid-November, and it's almost painful to go back to XP now :).

I even ran my 7 year old's birthday party off it using MCE (we rented a theater with a DLP projecor and showed the Star Wars DVD).

Brian Hampton

02-02-07, 06:47 AM

I replaced my HTPC with a PS3.

But, thanks for the heads up.

-Brian

goenkar

02-02-07, 07:21 AM

I updated a laptop after the MSDN version came out couple of months ago and found that URC's MX-3000 remote software editor stopped working due to lack of support for Active Sync.

But I had made a backup using Acronis's TrueImage http://www.acronis.com/ and was able to restore backup to XP in less than 30 minutes.

markrubin

02-02-07, 07:35 AM

Thanks for all the response:

From this thread I got the message 'don't upgrade' too late and I figure it will take several hours to get back to where I was: I still cannot find all my saved emails in named files but am sure they are there: somewhere

My PC has a second HD already formatted for XP, although I don't use it much, so I will switch to that HD and move data from the upgraded Vista HD as needed

Right now no mail program works properly: Win Mail crashes on startup, and Outlook will not remember passwords (yes I checked the boxes to save the passwords) so everytime I open Outlook I have to reenter them

My recently purchased Canon D680 laser printer/fax is not supported by Vista and there are no Vista drivers to be had

I run several programs that do not run on Mac: main one is programming for RTI remotes: I tried a Mac mini with both OS and Parallels but it ran too slow: otherwise I would be using a Mac now

So it is back to XP for me and a lesson learned: I hope others can learn from this

In the meantime I looked at Vista: while it looks nice, I don't see any big advantage: and there are several programs that don't run with it: they don't even show up in the scan as being a problem until it is too late (Macafee is one) and it seems to run a bit slower than XP

All in all, a really bad experience with a MS product that I thought was a mature, tested product:

if they offer it as an upgrade- I expect it should work

shrktank

02-02-07, 07:37 AM

Get the real thing..Buy a Mac with OS X

curlyjive

02-02-07, 09:37 AM

I've been running vista since the final release candidate. I've had no t as it has been stated, never upgrade an OS. AlWAYS rebuild!

price3

02-02-07, 09:49 AM

Just to add another data point, Vista destroyed my hard drive. Doing an upgrade from XP, it got almost to the end then BSOD. After the reboot it attempted to roll back to XP, then rebooted once again to an insert system disc dos prompt. The hard drive was unrecognizable from any software I then tried: ubuntu, dos boot disc, MaxBlast, SeaTools etc. Even the XP and Vista discs couldn't see it any more to use the recovery console. I hope you all have better experiences with Vista, but I'm waiting for SP1 before trying that again (when my new HD arrives anyway.)

WayneL

02-02-07, 11:06 AM

After spending 12 hrs yesterday on Vista, I gave up and restored XP. It did a form of clean install by putting my old installation in a windows.old directory, but why in the world didn't they keep the same files and settings structure so you can copy stuff back? Every file restoration is a big deal. Also had a couple essential custom apps that won't work, and some useful mainstream software, not to mention drivers. The part I think that bothered me most was the continuous low level disk and cpu activity. Fortunately had backed up with Ghost on an external HDD.

P.S. has anyone found the "run" command?

markrubin

02-02-07, 11:48 AM

Ahhhh

back to WIN XP

to really appreciate XP, spend 24 hours with Vista :o

eurotrance

02-02-07, 05:18 PM

I formatted and did a clean install of vista ultimate and its running flawlessly.

I backed up all my important and have not had any major issues cept my mic not working on my headset and having to switch to my usb headset which I dont like as much.

No problem here either (so far). I installed it in dual-boot though, just to be on the safe side...

eurotrance

02-02-07, 05:19 PM

SowegaBowler

02-02-07, 06:33 PM

Glad I came across this thread! Not that I had planned to immediately replace the XP Pro that had been working like a charm on my Dell Inspiron 9300, but the bulk of the experiences mentioned here are making me think twice about getting Vista until MS makes it more stable. Thanks, Mark and everyone!

Azumi

02-02-07, 06:57 PM

Ahhhh

back to WIN XP

to really appreciate XP, spend 24 hours with Vista :o

Mark, regarding an earlier post of yours, I think that a Mac Mini isn't fast enough to handle Vista. I have a Mini which I use as a media center and it's perfect to this kind of tasks.

If you wish to reconsider one of these times, I suggest a Mac Pro if you need plenty of power and already have a monitor -- it's my primary computer, and in comparison everything else feels slow. :) Otherwise, the 24" iMac are terrific and will offer you a nice value for an affordable price.

Apple will certainly release new machines when we get closer to OS X Leopard, and all of them will run Vista flawlessly for your Win-only apps. You may think of them as a sort of ultimate Blu-ray & HD-DVD player, and you'll be able to get the best of both worlds. :)

lance_60031

02-02-07, 08:20 PM

I am suprised that I haven't seen any posts about the lack of running McAfee when you load Vista. I am not sure I would trust the security of Microsoft as opposed to McAfee.
The following is the Mcafee position that Microsoft did not allow the security firms access to the "kernel".

http://www.mcafee.com/us/local_content/misc/vista_position.pdf

I think I will old off on my Vista Home Premium for my Dell E1505.

luigionlsd

02-02-07, 10:38 PM

AZKev

02-02-07, 11:20 PM

Sorry to hear of your upgrade problems! :eek:

I've done three at home that have gone flawlessly but I use the following process. BTW, if you're an IT techie like me (Speech Reco), there is a deal for Ultimate upgrade at $299 with two additional Home Premium upgrades at $99 each

This is from the Windows Secrets newsletter and this article was also distributed in the free edition, so I'm sure Brian Livingston has no issue with me posting it here. The newsletter is killer; try the free one first and you can always upgrade later.
This week's free newsletter can be seen in its entirety here at Windows Secrets (http://WindowsSecrets.com/comp/070201)

The secret is that the setup program in Vista's upgrade version will accept an installed copy of XP, W2K, or an unactivated copy of Vista itself as evidence of a previous installation.

This enables you to "clean install" an upgrade version of Vista to any formatted or unformatted hard drive, which is usually the preferred method when installing any new operating system. You must, in essence, install Vista twice to take advantage of this trick. But Vista installs much faster than XP, so it's quicker than installing XP followed by Vista to get the upgrade price.

Before you install Vista on a machine that you don't know is 100% compatible, you should run Microsoft's free Upgrade Advisor. This program — which operates only on 32-bit versions of XP and Vista (plus Vista Enterprise) — reports to you on any hardware or software it finds that may be incompatible with Vista. See Microsoft's Upgrade Advisor page.

Also, to see which flavors of XP Home, XP Pro, and 2000 officially support in-place installs and clean installs of the different Vista editions, see Microsoft's upgrade paths page.

Here's a simplified overview of the steps that are required to clean-install the upgrade version of Vista:

Step 1. Boot the PC from the Vista DVD.

Step 2. Select "Install Now," but do not enter the Product Key from the Vista packaging. Leave the input box blank. Also, turn off the option Automatically activate Windows when I'm online. In the next dialog box that appears, confirm that you really do want to install Vista without entering a Product Key.

Step 3. Correctly indicate the version of Vista that you're installing: Home Basic, Home Premium, Business, or Ultimate.

Step 4. Select the "Custom (Advanced)" install, not the "Upgrade" install.

Step 5. Vista copies files at length and reboots itself one or more times. Wait for the install to complete. At this point, you might think that you could "activate" Vista, but you can't. That's because you haven't installed the Vista upgrade yet. To do that, run the DVD's setup.exe program again, but this time from the Vista desktop. The easiest way to start setup again is to eject and then reinsert the DVD.

Step 6. Click "Install Now." Select Do not get the latest updates for installation. (You can check for these updates later.)

Step 7. This time, do enter the Product Key from the Vista packaging. Once again, turn off the option Automatically activate Windows when I'm online.

Step 8. On this second install, make sure to select "Upgrade," not "Custom (Advanced)." You're not doing a clean install now, you're upgrading to Vista.

Step 9. Wait while Vista copies files and reboots itself. No user interaction is required. Do not boot from the DVD when asked if you'd like to do so. Instead, wait a few seconds and the setup process will continue on its way. Some DOS-like, character-mode menus will appear, but don't interact with them. After a few seconds, the correct choice will run for you automatically.

Step 10. After you click a button labeled Start in the Thank You dialog box, Vista's login screen will eventually appear. Enter the username and password that you selected during the first install. You're done upgrading to Vista.

Step 11. Within 30 days, you must "activate" your copy of Vista or it'll lose functionality. To activate Vista, click Show more details in the Welcome Center that automatically displays upon each boot-up, then click Activate Windows now. If you've dismissed the Welcome Center, access the correct dialog box by clicking Start, Control Panel, System & Maintenance, System. If you purchased a legitimate copy of Vista, it should quickly activate over the Internet. (You can instead activate by calling Microsoft on the phone, which avoids your PC exchanging information with Microsoft's server.)

ryoohki

02-03-07, 12:24 AM

I got the Ultimate Upgrade (signature edition, on coincidence) and installed it today. I made a new partition on a 250gb HD and put 2000 on a 4gb partition. I then made a new partition using up the rest and upgraded 2000 -> Vista via clean install onto the remaining space. XP is on a 160gb drive and I have another 250 with misc data. Everything is peachy right now, and I've got a 4.9 cumulative "experience" score (as if that means ANYTHING). Specs are:

X2 4200 (939)
7900 GT
2GB RAM

Haven't done much gaming yet, but I've been running Vista for about 4-5 hours now and I'm liking it. I'm leaving XP on for a dual boot environment for when I get a hankering for old/OpenGL games.

Rating score will now be used on BOXES of games you buy. It's easier to read for a not hardcore person or a parent not into computer specs. While you install Vista it test the speed of the VideoRam, Ram to Ram, Ram to HDD, HDD to HDD, Cpu, Fpu etc.. and give you a 'Score'

For example on my Inspirons 6400 with Core Duo 1.8ghz,2ghz ram, and Intel Media Accel as video card i get 3.0, so game will have on the back

Minimum : 2.8+, Sugg : 3.8+ for example.

Nambit

02-03-07, 12:47 AM

I installed Vista on an Acer Travelmate 8100 Laptop. Let me tell you it wasn't as
easy as it could have been, especially since I am using the Upgrade one. It would
be nice if, when choosing upgrade, the thing would reboot, format your drive, then
install... instead of just copying files. Sure there's the create new option (something
like that) but it still doesn't seem to give you the option to format drive. You'd figure
the "new" part of the option means you want to wipe your old OS.

Anyhow, drivers are the real headache for those with laptops. Since things are
integrated (and since Acer is being pricks and aren't providing vista drivers!), you
have to look around for certain drivers.

**BUT**

After using the install from boot option (explained in post above), and finding the
necessary drivers (which took a few googles and some checking out the hardware
specs via hardware manager) things started to click into place. This OS is for real.
Yeah, it's a pain in the ass for the first 4-5 hrs if you're not prepared, but once it
gets hummin', it really is nice. I'm not the biggest fan of all the interface changes,
but when it comes to performance (yeah, it's a memory hog... bite me :)), this thing
really shines! It's running way faster than XP ever wished it could! It seems the
Kernel is rock solid! Feels like my old amiga computer in terms of OS efficiency.

Still, some caveats exists, but many are easily resolved via some tweaks, aparently.
All in all, I recommend this OS, especially since the price is right compared to previous
OS's (heh, use that trick!). Put it this way, I am not going to dual boot this thing.
That speaks for itself!

mike_carton

02-03-07, 01:36 AM

If you feel the urge to upgrade, backup your system and do a parallel install instead of an upgrade. Dual boot until you feel it is safe to delete XP from your system. It will save you some heartache.

Can't legally do a parallel install with an upgrade version. See Workaround for clean installation of Vista Upgrade versions (http://forevergeek.com/windows/workaround_for_clean_installation_of_vista_upgrade_versions. php) on how to do it.

Vista's installation program should create a folder (Windows.old) with the older Windows stuff still in it.

luigionlsd

02-03-07, 01:54 AM

Rating score will now be used on BOXES of games you buy. It's easier to read for a not hardcore person or a parent not into computer specs. While you install Vista it test the speed of the VideoRam, Ram to Ram, Ram to HDD, HDD to HDD, Cpu, Fpu etc.. and give you a 'Score'

For example on my Inspirons 6400 with Core Duo 1.8ghz,2ghz ram, and Intel Media Accel as video card i get 3.0, so game will have on the back

Minimum : 2.8+, Sugg : 3.8+ for example.

I understand what they're supposed to do, and quite frankly I just upgrade my computer enough so that I don't even have to look at system requirements. Either way, I don't see how that experience system will actually work in place of specific hardware requirements.

As for the guy posting that you can install a clean Vista without key, then upgrade to your current product key... there are rumors (FUD, if you will) circulating the internets that MS could at any time blacklist your key, because you do not have a legitimate key "linked" to your upgrade. We don't know whether they record your upgrade key being tied to the previous OS' key, but it very well could happen. Just a heads up. Also, the retail cost of Ultimate Upgrade is $259.99, with $49.99 additional Home Premium licenses (limit 2)... unless you're in Canada or something :p

benwaggoner

02-04-07, 01:19 AM

P.S. has anyone found the "run" command?
Just type the name of the app into the Start Menu's search command.

So "cmd" and enter launches the command-line interface

dialog_gvf

02-04-07, 01:28 AM

Just type the name of the app into the Start Menu's search command.

So "cmd" and enter launches the command-line interface

A SEARCH runs the application? What if I'm searching to see if a destructive .EXE is on the machine?

Gary

johnbe

02-04-07, 01:43 AM

P.S. has anyone found the "run" command?

Start
All Programs
Accessories (It is in this group of programs)

RobertR1

02-04-07, 02:02 AM

A SEARCH runs the application? What if I'm searching to see if a destructive .EXE is on the machine?

Gary

No, you have to hit enter after you narrow the search down to the specific program....

syndalis

02-04-07, 02:34 AM

there is absolutely no use for the run command.

Click on start, and just start typing. Your program will show up on the start menu to select and run, without fail.

Everything is indexed... and its much better for it.

Sinastar

02-04-07, 09:25 AM

trbarry

02-04-07, 10:58 AM

I also do not believe in upgrading a working windows version with a new one until at least one service pack is out and the word is most people are running it happily. Anything else is just asking for trouble unless you are just curious or absolutely need some new feature.

- Tom

hard-case

02-04-07, 11:17 AM

Why would anyone buy the upgrade version for Vista when
the System Builders Version of Vista is 50 bucks cheaper for
Ultimate and 30 bucks cheaper for Home premium.
...Oh i see you don't get a fancy box:)
Or maybe there's a problem i'm not seeing.

http://www.newegg.com/ProductSort/SubCategory.asp?SubCategory=368&name=Operating-Systems

Because OEM versions run under a different licensing agreement than the full retail versions, as they are intended for companies who install the OS onto computers they build/ship to customers.

IIRC the license allows you to change any components in the system aside from the MB without any problems...but once you change the MB, it is considered a new system and would thus require a "new license". For example, say you have a current system with a copy of Vista OEM, and you decide to build a new computer. If you were to take that copy of Vista OEM and install it on the newly built computer, you would be violating the licensing agreement. Most likely this will come up during the activation phase, and you'll end up being SOL. The other thing is that support options are much different for the OEM version. You do not get much support at all from Microsoft, as the intent for OEM copies is that the OEM will provided first level support.

moore

02-04-07, 12:08 PM

I thought I'd add to this in case people are itching to upgrade. Ultimate is fine, but doesn't really add much above Home Premium. I plan to do the "family pack" upgrade and get 2 copies of HP for $49 each. Works fine for me since I have two other computers. The only things I'll miss from Ultimate that aren't on Home Premium are the ability to do an outgoing Remote Desktop, and Texas Hold Em (one of the games on Ultimate Extras ;) ).

So for me the pricing of three copies works out about the same as OEM, and since I'm always changing hardware, upgrading mobos, retail box was the way to go. If I trip the hardware changes check at some point, I make a call to MS and they clear it, it's really not the big deal it's made out to be.

Also, it just occured to me the cleverness/evil of MS' vista strategy. I think in the past they had large numbers of people grab an extra OS install from work. By taking the media features out of Vista Business, and putting in some of the desirable networking stuff only into that version (and pricing ultimate higher), they are probably making that path a lot less attractive, and getting more retail purchases which are more profitable.

Head Shot

02-04-07, 06:33 PM

Thanks for all the response:

In the meantime I looked at Vista: while it looks nice, I don't see any big advantage: and there are several programs that don't run with it: they don't even show up in the scan as being a problem until it is too late (Macafee is one) and it seems to run a bit slower than XP

All in all, a really bad experience with a MS product that I thought was a mature, tested product:

if they offer it as an upgrade- I expect it should work

PC WORLD tests reflected that very same outcome, but it is somewhat dependent of software applications. Bottom line- Vista will run slower with current batch of softwares than with XP.

AZKev

02-04-07, 09:02 PM

I thought I'd add to this in case people are itching to upgrade. Ultimate is fine, but doesn't really add much above Home Premium.

One word (OK, it's one of those new fangled compressed words...)

BitLocker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BitLocker_Drive_Encryption)

AZKev

02-04-07, 09:18 PM

PC WORLD tests reflected that very same outcome, but it is somewhat dependent of software applications. Bottom line- Vista will run slower with current batch of softwares than with XP.

All of these consumer PC mags neglect to mention the 64 bit version and the appropriate 64 bit apps. I have found Vista 64 to have all the drivers I need and much faster than XP 64 for my SAS data analysis apps.

What until all of you gamers get your hands on the first 64 bit apps, you're going to love Vista 64 when you've got 12 or 16G B of ram on your mobo!

moore

02-04-07, 10:41 PM

I have a hard time envisioning a scenario where I need any of my drives encrypted. OTOH, I can easily envision misplacing the USB key and being SOL.

Milt99

02-04-07, 10:52 PM

I've been running Vista Ultimate & Office 2007 since early December.
I like it a lot although I do think Win2k was the best balance of features and performance without the bloat.
I really wish MS would tell users that doing the upgrade thing is really dicey and usually is more trouble than it's worth.
I don't think Vista is going to have the same issues that XP had upon initial release, i.e., lots of problems until SP1.
I am still running dual boot with XP as I haven't had time or the inclination to backup all my stuff for the big hd flattening.
BTW, since this thread has featured some solid general PC advice, I'll throw in mine.
For best performance etc., flatten and re-install everything every year or so.
You won't believe the garbage you can acquire.
If you have kids, you'll probably have to do it just to keep it running. ;)

benwaggoner

02-04-07, 11:03 PM

One word (OK, it's one of those new fangled compressed words...)

BitLocker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BitLocker_Drive_Encryption)
Also, for those who work from home, Remote Desktop and Domain support are massive.

Me, well, being me, I'm running Ultimate, and it's so great to finally have Media Center and Domains in the same OS.

eizenga13

02-04-07, 11:43 PM

Forceflow

02-04-07, 11:46 PM

I purchased ultimate and haven't have a "SINGLE" issue I am so SICK if this doom and gloom crap, EVERYTHING on my system has worked FLAWLESSLY, including iTunes, and Photoshop and well... EVERYTHING... Obviously you don't know how to do a proper install, that is what that tells me.

Its just that upgrading an OS install isn't easy and is very risky. The best is to buy a new HDD (partition if desired), install new OS, migrate files and remove old OS. Also, backing up files and reformat/fresh install works equally as well.

With HDD prices so cheap, its a smart move to clean install.

BTW, mediacenter for Vista is neat but the hardware compatibility is not good right now. I'd wait on Vista unless you really need the cool look. XP isn't "outdated" or anything.

Milt99

02-05-07, 12:50 AM

c'mon eizenga13 you should know that's not true. There are tons of variables when it comes to PC software plus there's not many places a reasonable person can screw things up during an install.
Sh!t just happens sometimes.
Most people who use computers have no idea what's going on under the covers and by now they shouldn't have to.
IMO MS really should not be offering an upgrade option on Vista unless it's bullet-proof and there is no way to test for every real world variable.
Consider yourself lucky, be happy!

Head Shot

02-05-07, 03:19 AM

All of these consumer PC mags neglect to mention the 64 bit version and the appropriate 64 bit apps. I have found Vista 64 to have all the drivers I need and much faster than XP 64 for my SAS data analysis apps.

What until all of you gamers get your hands on the first 64 bit apps, you're going to love Vista 64 when you've got 12 or 16G B of ram on your mobo!

Actually it did mention the 64 bit performance boost. But for the sake of simplicity I ommited that comparison since most don't quite use 64 bit apps for daily use yet.

hdtheater

02-05-07, 11:52 AM

I tried to install it on a spare PC. It flagged me early on and said I needed 512mb RAM minimum, which means if you want it to run good you need 1gb of RAM.

I am assuming with the high memory requirememnts and larger graphics cards needed to run Vista, this is not the OS to install on existing computers. At least ones that are older than 6 mos.

There is a reason they released this thing around the time people get tax refunds!!!

I for one will be waiting to buy a new PC with it preloaded. Not worth the hassle of doing in place upgrades of all the equipment to find out that it still runs like a dog.

moore

02-05-07, 01:09 PM

Memory is often the bottleneck in computers. I haven't had a single computer with less than 1GB of RAM in over three years. Sadly, companies like Dell strip the RAM way down in their low end desktops, or fill up the few slots with cheaper RAM sticks to keep the prices down, but it makes upgrading more expensive. Some people then just never upgrade.

I have a 2+ year old graphics card that cost me under $100 at the time. It is running Vista Aero just fine. You do not need a computer bought in the last six months, unless you paid under $500 for it and don't feel like messing around with upgrading RAM and video. OTOH, if XP does what you want there is not much reason to upgrade anyway.

benwaggoner

02-05-07, 01:12 PM

I tried to install it on a spare PC. It flagged me early on and said I needed 512mb RAM minimum, which means if you want it to run good you need 1gb of RAM.
1 GB is a good minimum. Although that's been true for years, hasn't it? I don't think I've bought a Mac or PC with less than 2 GB for at least three years.

I am assuming with the high memory requirememnts and larger graphics cards needed to run Vista, this is not the OS to install on existing computers. At least ones that are older than 6 mos.
You'll want a good GPU to run the "Aero Glass" UI, but you can run the Aero or Classic UI on pretty much alything.

Again, I've got it running just fine on a 2.5 year old workstation (albeit high-end at the time) and a year-old laptop.

trbarry

02-05-07, 01:14 PM

One word (OK, it's one of those new fangled compressed words...)

BitLocker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BitLocker_Drive_Encryption)

Many XP users can probably get most of those benefits for free using the open source TrueCrypt (http://www.truecrypt.org/) software.

- Tom

nataraj

02-06-07, 12:12 AM

I am assuming with the high memory requirememnts and larger graphics cards needed to run Vista, this is not the OS to install on existing computers. At least ones that are older than 6 mos.

I've been running Vista with Aero on an old PC with the cheapest possible PCI-E card I could buy (I actually got it for $10 on e-bay - it is the cheapest of PCI-E cards from ATI).

I'd suggest 1GB RAM though ... for both Vista & XP, if you plan on running several apps at once.

Elemental1

02-06-07, 11:58 AM

Vista is running very well here (and has through all the RC releases).
You really need 2GB though, 1GB just is not enough to run it well.
But I will say just doing the basics only uses 30% of my 2GB. :cool:
Combine it with Office 2007 and it's just so sweet!

Edit: Mark...since that 80GB HDD is not a WD Raptor, it needs to go. ;)

Elemental1

02-07-07, 11:13 AM

Spektricide

02-07-07, 12:27 PM

So let me get this right:

1. We end users have no accountability for what we do with our system?
2. Microsoft is responsible for all our hardware and software decisions?
3. We ignore MS instructions when upgrading then cry foul?

Sounds just like people blaming the Gov for Katrina. :rolleyes:

If the web-based system scan says it's vista ready and Vista offers the option to "upgrade" your system without a fresh install/hardwire wipe, THEN IT SHOULD WORK THAT WAY.

Elemental1

02-07-07, 12:54 PM

If the web-based system scan says it's vista ready and Vista offers the option to "upgrade" your system without a fresh install/hardwire wipe, THEN IT SHOULD WORK THAT WAY.

Yes...it should but you are implying that users with these issues have done everything they are supposed to correctly.
That is a huge assumption, IMO.

J.Mike Ferrara

02-07-07, 02:47 PM

Having installed every single Windows version since Windows 286 (YES!), my experience was more frustrating than should have been necessary. I, too, experienced HD corrupting when trying to upgrade (must be a 'feature'), so I decided to follow the guide for the clean install (posted above), and still had issues. Again, I reformatted the C:\ partition (all my programs/data are on D:) and the second set of installs worked like a charm.

I've got 3GB of RAM, and the Raedon 128MB graphics card, so the Aero interface is sweet. Yes, the driver situation is poor, but that will improve, and the UAC is a royal pain, and there is something weird with the file system. I'm sure by SR2 things will improve.

I can't image anyone other than a PC geek with lots of Win experience tackling a Vista upgrade.

Elemental1

02-07-07, 08:04 PM

Wasn't that Windows 2.0? I remember that. :D
I never do upgrades for my own machines as I prefer a clean start.
I must say Vista makes it very easy for the end user as even the upgrade will do a clean install and put all your junk into a Windows.old folder.
What controller did you have corruption on? :eek:

nataraj

02-07-07, 08:54 PM

I, too, experienced HD corrupting when trying to upgrade ...

Did the advisor crib about any of the programs installed ?

Paul Cordingley

02-07-07, 09:01 PM

I've been running Vista RC1 as my main OS since it was released :D

I'll probably wait for it to stop working before I upgrade to the final release. It's been a treat (1GB RAM, Nvidia 6600GT), full Aero Glass and all.

Spektricide

02-07-07, 09:16 PM

Yes...it should but you are implying that users with these issues have done everything they are supposed to correctly.
That is a huge assumption, IMO.

Your right, it is a huge assumption. Quite a few computer tech sites have reported that exact incident. Personally, I haven't made the jump to Vista, yet I have been using Windows since the lovely 3.11 days. Early adopters of windows products have always been beta testers. It's a common thing for almost all PC software and it's becoming a mainstream idea in PC games. Unfortunately, it looks like that trend is continuing into console games. I am just personally sick and tired of paying to be a beta tester.

Elemental1

02-07-07, 10:32 PM

I am just personally sick and tired of paying to be a beta tester.

I guess I can understand that.
When Xp was released I jumped on that like white on rice and never felt like a beta tester. ;)
It's just Deja-vu with Vista.....and look how much XP improved over it's forefathers. :)

K.L.

02-08-07, 08:03 PM

So much for Windows Vista as Media Center. Paying money to buy troubles!

GmanAVS

02-08-07, 08:33 PM

Mark, ty for the heads up.

I thought of doing the upgrade but after reading your experience and speaking to my office IT guys, will now wait untill I get a new PC to have Vista.

... ok folks, I guess we can run amock on the BD/HD and LCD/Plasma forums for a lil while mark is getting his PC under control... :p

preludejtstyle

02-10-07, 06:26 PM

kansasguy

02-10-07, 07:38 PM

slighly OT: I apologize

Do not install Windows Vista upgrade

man am I sorry I bought and installed Win Vista Upgrade: from XP to Home Premium: I had a stable, fast computer: I did the scan and the Vista advisor said my hardware was good to go

Now I have an unstable computer that wiped Outloook Express (there is no OE in Vista) and replaced it with Win Mail that crashes when I open it

Win Media Player hangs up as do other Win programs

and worse: there is no way to uninstall it :mad:

Sorry for the rant: just want to warn others of this debacle

I upgraded two machines and have one more to upgrade. One with Business and one with Ultimate. No issues here.
I understand you having issues but telling everyone not to upgrade is stupid. That is like someone saying I bought a new Sony DVD player and it didn't work so don't buy Sony DVD players. I am sure there are many successful Vista upgrades as well as some bad ones.

Spektricide

02-10-07, 09:49 PM

I upgraded two machines and have one more to upgrade. One with Business and one with Ultimate. No issues here.
I understand you having issues but telling everyone not to upgrade is stupid. That is like someone saying I bought a new Sony DVD player and it didn't work so don't buy Sony DVD players. I am sure there are many successful Vista upgrades as well as some bad ones.

His point was that there isn't any way to "go back" to the stable operating system he had before with all of his media files etc. in tact. If you bought a new Sony DVD player that didn't work you could take it back to the store and keep using your old Sanyo player. Once you buy Vista and open the software. Most stores will not take it back.

Totally different subjects.

markrubin

02-11-07, 07:59 AM

His point was that there isn't any way to "go back" to the stable operating system he had before with all of his media files etc. in tact. If you bought a new Sony DVD player that didn't work you could take it back to the store and keep using your old Sanyo player. Once you buy Vista and open the software. Most stores will not take it back.

Totally different subjects.

agreed: I am 'stuck' with Vista: luckily I have another HD with old faithful XP

I am down to two Vista issues:

-MacAfee is not compatible with Vista: they do give you a list of compatible antivirus programs that includes Norton. However I get MacAfee free from Comcast; there will be a lot of unhappy Comcast/Vista users: the scan did not tell me MacAfee was not supported

-no Vista printer drivers for a recently purchased Canon D680 laser printer

I went into Staples, where I bought the Canon printer: the tech told me when XP first came out, they sold a lot of printers labeled 'XP compatible' but it turned out the XP drivers did not work and Staples had to take back a lot of printers: he said it could be months before Vista printer drivers will show up: I looked at new printers for sale and only about 10 per cent were labeled Vista ready:

a Google search will show I am not the only one complaining about this

rdodolak

02-11-07, 01:54 PM

-MacAfee is not compatible with Vista: they do give you a list of compatible antivirus programs that includes Norton. However I get MacAfee free from Comcast; there will be a lot of unhappy Comcast/Vista users: the scan did not tell me MacAfee was not supported

http://us.mcafee.com/vista/

Elemental1

02-11-07, 01:57 PM

Microsoft says to uninstall AV software prior to upgrading so I'm not sure why it would not flag McAfee.
You could do an in-place fresh install which will save your old data then DL the 90 day trial MS OneCare.
The printer.....maybe the old drivers might work. :eek:

moore

02-11-07, 02:15 PM

I have Windows XP Home on my hard drive now. I went an installed a secondary hard drive and put most of the files i want on there. Pictures and movies and music and stuff. If I reformat the old hard-drive that has XP on it, and install Vista on it, will the other hard drive survive? or will I need to do something to it?

This will work fine, you will be able to see the files. Note that your system files, program settings, and the like are not in the "my documents" folder, so you may want to move them (like a .pst file for Outlook if you use that, bookmarks, etc).

Also, if you re-format, and have an "upgrade" version of Vista, it won't work right. You will have to do the workaround. It may be easier to just tell Vista you want a clean install, in which case it sticks the old XP stuff in a file called .old that you could delete if you're short on space.

BUT - If your new hard drive is bigger, why not format it and leave the old one untouched? That way if something goes wrong, you can safely go back to the way things were (which is why this thread is here to begin with, Mark didn't do that and is now unhappy). Hard disks are so cheap now that it's hardly worth doing anything else.

WayneL

02-11-07, 04:23 PM

Sinastar

02-11-07, 04:48 PM

Free Antivirus, works with Vista.

http://free.grisoft.com/freeweb.php/doc/2/

I've been using AVG Antivirus for about 3 years with XP and now
with Vista. No problems great software and it works. Updates itself
almost daily. Why would anyone buy Antivirus software?

preludejtstyle

02-11-07, 05:51 PM

BUT - If your new hard drive is bigger, why not format it and leave the old one untouched? That way if something goes wrong, you can safely go back to the way things were (which is why this thread is here to begin with, Mark didn't do that and is now unhappy). Hard disks are so cheap now that it's hardly worth doing anything else.

My small hard drive holds Windows XP currently. It was installed fresh again about three weeks ago. Only other thing I have added other than Windows updates, was VLC media Player.

All other Content, has been put on my 250GB harddrive. I prefer it that way. Let Vista run off one of them, and put all other files on the other one. MAkes sense to me. I made the "My Docs" folder target the second hardrive. So life is easy. Nothing other than windows access's the small drive.

Makes sense? I can't afford a new hard drive when I have two that work perfectly well???

moore

02-11-07, 07:14 PM

Sure. What I suggested would effectively require two new disks on a two disk system. So that is something like $150. Everyone has their own price comfort level. For me, that's not a lot of money to have a complete, foolproof backup I can go to in 5 minutes if needed. It's less than the price of most versions of Vista.

I don't like taking a chance on being stuck with a computer that isn't working right. I do like having a complete backup of photos, videos, and other hard-to-replace content. I had a power supply zap two hard drives in the same computer once. I had some priceless content on there that hadn't made it on the last backup. A company was able to recover it for me. For $1600(!)

In a month, once I've installed all the hard-and software on this machine, I will reformat my old XP system drive and use it as a fresh backup, so it isn't in any sense wasted.

Anyway, I am not trying to change your mind or argue with you, I am just explaining my reasoning.