I'm starting to look for a new camcorder and I think I really want an HD camera with a hard drive. The main option right now seems to be the SR1, but I've read a lot about how impossible it is to edit the avchd format.

I was wondering from anyone that has used both (hard drive and dv), is hard drive really a lot better and more convenient or is it all in my head. Is the convenience worth not being able to edit right now? Has anyone heard of any new HD options with a hard drive coming out soon?

I'm probably going to get the Canon HV20 but JVC is releasing this soon as well.

http://www.jvc.com/presentations/everiohd/?urlid=MPEverioHD

Decisions decisions...

I've read in several places that the code (codec? IDK) used with DV tapes is superior to that used with MiniDVD and HD. And that goes for PQ as well as Editing. Perhaps there is something new I don't know. (That's for sure :D )

Does anyone have any info about this? I would much rather deal with HD than DV tapes. And it seems like uploading to a computer could be much faster with a method that didn't have to be realtime.

...is hard drive really a lot better and more convenient or is it all in my head...
Convenient? HDD is convenient for recording for the first four hours and then after that it is going to be a pain. Imagine your friends want to see the beautiful HD footage you took last summer in Paris. You then have to ask them to wait for a while when you go to your PC to unload some footage off your SR1 to make room on the HD and then download the Paris footage from your PC onto the SR1... IMHO it is just going to be a giant pain to playback achived videos in a hurry.

Convenient? HDD is convenient for recording for the first four hours and then after that it is going to be a pain. Imagine your friends want to see the beautiful HD footage you took last summer in Paris. You then have to ask them to wait for a while when you go to your PC to unload some footage off your SR1 to make room on the HD and then download the Paris footage from your PC onto the SR1... IMHO it is just going to be a giant pain to playback achived videos in a hurry.

That's why you gotta edit the videos into nice movies and archive them on disks. (ftw)

I'm starting to look for a new camcorder and I think I really want an HD camera with a hard drive. The main option right now seems to be the SR1, but I've read a lot about how impossible it is to edit the avchd format.


I don't understand 100% the early adopters of AVCHD camcorders. You can't edit footage right now and by the time software solutions are developed, a new wave of camcorders will have come out.


I was wondering from anyone that has used both (hard drive and dv), is hard drive really a lot better and more convenient or is it all in my head. Is the convenience worth not being able to edit right now? Has anyone heard of any new HD options with a hard drive coming out soon?

I don't think convenience is all too different. I think there's a mentality that comes from audio devices that states tapes are old, inconvenient, and low-quality (as is the case for tape-based Walkmans) while HDs are new, convenient, and high-quality (as is the case of iPods). I don't think this applies to camcorders. HDV is a fairly new standard and sending video to your computer is as easy as connecting a firewire cable. Transferring video is in realtime which is arguably inconvenient but no one says that you have to sit in front of your computer the whole time while the transfer takes place! ;)

For me, it's ultimately a question of picture quality. At the end of the day, my friends and family who watch my videos aren't going to see or care about the media transport system. They're just going to see the image on the screen in front of them. If it's good PQ, they'll be impressed regardless of where it originated from. I think you should choose the camera that gives, in your opinion, the best footage!

My recommendation would be to borrow camcorders from friends and test them out in real shooting situations that you would tend to run into. Unfortunately, not everyone owns a $1k+ camcorder. As an alternative, I suggest you DL video clips from users in other forums or manufacturers' homepages. :) The PQ of some of the clips I've seen has been amazing!

That's why you gotta edit the videos into nice movies and archive them on disks. (ftw)

this's precisely the point. For SR1's AVCHD codec, nothing to edit the video with, nothing to playback the disk on. :(

I'm starting to look for a new camcorder and I think I really want an HD camera with a hard drive. The main option right now seems to be the SR1, but I've read a lot about how impossible it is to edit the avchd format.

I currently have the SR1, OMG what a pain in the a**! (Help me, see topic)->SR1 Sony HD Questions = ( I purchased the thing going by brand name and features, only to conclude it is in no way compatible to a Mac. ??? Sony has pissed me off so much, making this great camcorder only Win-Blows compatible?? Now that I have my 4hrs of quality HD video, I have no way to edit it... As I currently type, I am having to burn all this video down to a DVD-R in HQ (Still not HD i think) and then will have to delete the video from the SR1 to record more, well there goes my HD quality... Any ideas??

-DJADJ

I currently have the SR1, OMG what a pain in the a**! (Help me, see topic)->SR1 Sony HD Questions = ( I purchased the thing going by brand name and features, only to conclude it is in no way compatible to a Mac. ??? Sony has pissed me off so much, making this great camcorder only Win-Blows compatible?? Now that I have my 4hrs of quality HD video, I have no way to edit it... As I currently type, I am having to burn all this video down to a DVD-R in HQ (Still not HD i think) and then will have to delete the video from the SR1 to record more, well there goes my HD quality... Any ideas??

-DJADJ

It seems Sony skimped on the size of the hard drive and got stuck having to use a compression codec still in it's infancy to avoid abysmal recording times. Hopefully their next generation models will have adequate storage space to allow them to use a more established codec like Mpeg2.

PS: How many of minutes of HQ quality movie are you being able to fit on a DVD-R?

PS: How many of minutes of HQ quality movie are you being able to fit on a DVD-R?

7.5GB/hour at HQ from SR1, so around 36min on a 4.7GB (4.5GB) DVD-R.

I just picked up the JVC Evertio G GZ-MG37u. I have had it for a few weeks and enjoy not dealing with disc. I don't have a concern of worry about transfering to a disc to send to others since it is for my immediate family in the first place. I also picked up the Kodak EasyShare P880. I have been looking at the JVC hard drive cams for a couple of years now and have been enjoying the use out here in the desert. The BX here sales out of them as soon as they are available. You can edit the video on the camcorder itself or the computer.

thanks for the responses. I plan on viewing most of my video through a 360 networked to my media center . Does anyone know if that will work with the avchd format? I'll probably skip on the sony because I would definitely want to be able to edit my video. Guess I'll have to wait for some reviews on the hv20 and the new everio. I'm expecting a couple rugrats in May, so I have a little time but not much.

HDD is definitely much more convenient though I'd stick with a solution that uses the good ol' 25Mbps DV codec.

HDD is definitely much more convenient though I'd stick with a solution that uses the good ol' 25Mbps DV codec.

I wonder how this codec will perform against the new MPEG2-TS 30Mbps on the new JVC Everio.

Yea the JVC hits a peak 30MBps on the highest quality and that's still fitting 5 hours onto the hard drive. That's about 5 HDV tapes right? Hmm

Yea the JVC hits a peak 30MBps on the highest quality and that's still fitting 5 hours onto the hard drive. That's about 5 HDV tapes right? HmmIt's not about quantity, it's about quality.

It's not about quantity, it's about quality.
Exactly. And editability. DVtapes seem to be the right choice at this time.

EDIT: If I'm wrong I'd like to know. I just don't like tape that much. But, it works.

Well the JVC has got the 3 CCD, Fujinon lens and MPEG2 at 1920x1080i

There should be no limitation in the recording format. The JCV and HDV cams both use MPEG2. HDV is 25Mbps and JVC is VBR at an average 26.6Mbps peaking at 30Mbps. The JVC simply has better raw specs in the codec but how that turns out in real world performance, we'll have to wait and see. With the big hard drive the JVC has both quantity and quality :) , possible the first hard drive to do this?

As for editing abilities, there will be plug ins for iMovie and Final Cut Pro plus CyberLink BD for the PC. Hopefully more NLE support is on the way too.

The JVC looks good, I just can't wait until the reviews to see what it's really like.

As for editing abilities, there will be plug ins for iMovie and Final Cut Pro plus CyberLink BD for the PC. Hopefully more NLE support is on the way too.

Does this mean it will edit properly (and with PQ the equal of DVtape) with Sony Vegas 7?

Does this mean it will edit properly (and with PQ the equal of DVtape) with Sony Vegas 7?
Both of these things are yet to be determined, especially the latter.

I really doubt it will match the quality of tape.

Kyser

I am getting ready to purchase a new system and have been considering the HVR-V1U and the HVR-DR60 external HD for simultaneous recording to tape and HD. This being with the idea I can edit the footage with Vegas 6 directly from the HD and keep the tape for archive purposes, or perhaps to later re-edit for HD output. I am looking for flaws in this approach or opinions on either the HVR-V1U or the HVR-DR60.

Rich

Both of these things are yet to be determined, especially the latter.

I really doubt it will match the quality of tape.

Kyser

Why not? It's the same codec - MPEG2 - at a higher bit rate.

Why not? It's the same codec - MPEG2 - at a higher bit rate.Nothing has matched tape yet, why should this be the holy grail?

I'll believe it when I see it.

Nothing has matched tape yet, why should this be the holy grail?

I'll believe it when I see it.

Has there been a HD HDD camcorder with MPEG2?

I believe Sony was the first... HDR-SR1

I could be wrong though.

I believe Sony was the first... HDR-SR1

I could be wrong though.

The Sony HDR-SR1 is a MPEG4/AVC camcorder. I don't believe there has been a consumer HDD Mpeg2 camcorder yet. It's a reasonable assumption to assume that the higher bit rate Mpeg2 JVC HDD camcorder should outperform lower bit rate Mpeg2 HDV tape camcorders.

The Sony HDR-SR1 is a MPEG4/AVC camcorder. I don't believe there has been a consumer HDD Mpeg2 camcorder yet. It's a reasonable assumption to assume that the higher bit rate Mpeg2 JVC HDD camcorder should outperform lower bit rate Mpeg2 HDV tape camcorders.
Yes, that's correct. (As far as I know)

Still, why would you just assume that the JVC will do what no other camcorder has done before? The proof is in the pudding. I've seen what the HV10 and HV20 can do. Where is the JVC footage?

Once it hits the market and the professional forums start posting RAW footage... only then will I believe the hype.

Specs are useless IMHO.

Yes, that's correct. (As far as I know)

Still, why would you just assume that the JVC will do what no other camcorder has done before? The proof is in the pudding. I've seen what the HV10 and HV20 can do. Where is the JVC footage?

Once it hits the market and the professional forums start posting RAW footage... only then will I believe the hype.

Specs are useless IMHO.
I make the assumption simply because of it has specs of no other camcorder before it. Namely, the highest bitrate Mpeg2 codec coupled with a HDD. Based simply on this viewpoint it would seem naive to say the JVC would not have comparable if not better PQ then other Mpeg2 codec cameras. The intangibles that still need to be ironed out are things like the lens quality and image stabilization. These things have a role in overall PQ that we'll only get a real chance to evaluate after the camera gets into people's hands.

I make the assumption simply because of it has specs of no other camcorder before it. Namely, the highest bitrate Mpeg2 codec coupled with a HDD. Based simply on this viewpoint it would seem naive to say the JVC would not have comparable if not better PQ then other Mpeg2 codec cameras. The intangibles that still need to be ironed out are things like the lens quality and image stabilization. These things have a role in overall PQ that we'll only get a real chance to evaluate after the camera gets into people's hands.

It would be naive to base anything on specs.

Especially in a company that is still holding back information about this camera when everyone else has laid everything on the table.

Odd no?

Kyser

It would be naive to base anything on specs.

Especially in a company that is still holding back information about this camera when everyone else has laid everything on the table.

Odd no?

Kyser

no

Really? You announce the camera and what it can do but hold back on specific details. Now that's odd.

Alright..

You want specs...
"minimum brightness 18 Lux (shutter:1/60, sensitivity up: AGC)"
LINK (http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/JVC-Releases-More-High-def-Everio-GZ-HD7-Details-in-Japan-.htm)

That means about 9 Lux in North America. YUCK!

And people complained about the low-light capabilities of the HV10 at 5 Lux.

The HV20 is rated at 3 I believe.

Really? You announce the camera and what it can do but hold back on specific details. Now that's odd.

Alright..

You want specs...
"minimum brightness 18 Lux (shutter:1/60, sensitivity up: AGC)"
LINK (http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/JVC-Releases-More-High-def-Everio-GZ-HD7-Details-in-Japan-.htm)

That means about 9 Lux in North America. YUCK!

And people complained about the low-light capabilities of the HV10 at 5 Lux.

The HV20 is rated at 3 I believe.

The other issue is how much gain can be applied when AGC is enabled. Typically JVC limits AGC gain to a lower value than do Panasonic/Sony. So if the AGC gain is limited -- then to compare cameras, we may need to divide the 9 lux by about 2 to 3. Which could make it a 4 to 6 lux camera.

Hmmm........

PS: The HV20 is rated at 3 lux @ 1/30 shutter speed. Getting usable video from that speed ought to be fun.

Hmmm........

PS: The HV20 is rated at 3 lux @ 1/30 shutter speed. Getting usable video from that speed ought to be fun.You obviously haven't seen any HV20 footage. ;)

Which could make it a 4 to 6 lux camera.
Could? That's the best you can do?

I'm just throwing around specs... I thought you liked them?
Like I've said before, the HV10 low light footage is amazing! I've pasted links in this forum. The HV20 footage coming out of Japan is awesome, more links posted. Where's the JVC footage?

You wanted specs, I gave you specs. The Lux rating of the JVC is abysmal at any shutter speed.

I personally think, as I've said all along, is... wait for the footage!

One thing is for sure. The HV20 is getting ALL the buzz on the professional video forums. They know that the HV20 has improved over the HV10 in many ways and the HV10 was awesome.

Cheers,

Kyser

You obviously haven't seen any HV20 footage. ;)


Could? That's the best you can do?

I'm just throwing around specs... I thought you liked them?
Like I've said before, the HV10 low light footage is amazing! I've pasted links in this forum. The HV20 footage coming out of Japan is awesome, more links posted. Where's the JVC footage?

You wanted specs, I gave you specs. The Lux rating of the JVC is abysmal at any shutter speed.

I personally think, as I've said all along, is... wait for the footage!

One thing is for sure. The HV20 is getting ALL the buzz on the professional video forums. They know that the HV20 has improved over the HV10 in many ways and the HV10 was awesome.

Cheers,

Kyser

Yeah, that's the best I can do. I stand corrected. I bow before the supremeness that is the (unreleased) HV20. It's (rumored to be, by professional video forum buzz) the greatest thing since eyeballs for picture quality. I deeply regret looking at specs to try and gauge performance. I have been served. Good day.

PS: If I've been forgiven, perhaps you could send me a "ZOMG Canon pwns all" t-shirt.

A childish response... so be it.

You wanted to compare specs, we did.
Now that the LUX rating of the JVC has gone south you resort to acting like a child.

So be it.

You forget, the HV10 is not vapourware, the HV20 is only going to improve on it. You can actually find footage from both cameras.

Tape is PROVEN storage medium. HDD has something yet to prove.

This will be my last response to you since you obviously have a personal bias to a product you've yet to see. I've seen the HV10, the HV20 is simply an upgrade. A good one at that...

The reviews and footage for the HV20 are also available in Japan. Very easy to find.

Cheers,

Kyser

We bought a Sony DCR- SR40 HDD camcorder tonight. I get it home and find out I cannot connect it to a JVC DVD recorder using a DV port(does not support firewire?) only Composite cables. Will this cause image problems if I burn to a DVD using the DVD recorder? Should I have bought the JVC HDD camcorder instead? Does DV port make a difference? Our computer does not have a DVD burner so we wanted to record to DVD using the recorder.

We bought the Sony based on the salesman saying the Sony had a better lens and low light filming compared to the JVC GZMG 130US.

HDD camcorders are a slightly different animal. When you connect them to a computer, they are seen as just another HDD, so there is no real advantage to having a firewire port... I haven't seen the specs on the SR40 but there SHOULD be a USB port for computer download..... this is more the norm for a SD HDD cam.

Composite will work, but it sure isn't the best port in the world to be using for recording with.... if there is a Svid port this would be a little better. Your DVD recorder SHOULD have a Svid connect (usually if it has composite then it will have Svid)

I should also add that you will need to use separate audio lines as well... composite/Svid/component supports video only.

A USB cable came with the camera. You have to use an included dock to download to the computer. I can buy a S-video cable to connect it to the DVD recorder. We'll try it out for a few days and then decide whether to keep it or not.

I am shopping for a S-Video cable for my Sony DCR-SR40 HDD camcorder. Is there a real difference between these two cables?

http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start?CategoryName=acc_DIAccessories_i%2eLINKCables&ProductSKU=VMC30FS&TabName=comp&var2=

http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start?CategoryName=acc_DIAccessories_i%2eLINKCables&ProductSKU=VMC15FS&TabName=comp&var2=


Is there another source to buy cables besides Sony?

I make the assumption simply because of it has specs of no other camcorder before it. Namely, the highest bitrate Mpeg2 codec coupled with a HDD. Based simply on this viewpoint it would seem naive to say the JVC would not have comparable if not better PQ then other Mpeg2 codec cameras. The intangibles that still need to be ironed out are things like the lens quality and image stabilization. These things have a role in overall PQ that we'll only get a real chance to evaluate after the camera gets into people's hands.Bit rate is already a non-issue on the HV10... Processing is a huge factor in PQ and there are no specs for that ;)


ron

A search turned up some this old thread on HDD vs tape. But, with the rapidly evolving market, the situation may be shifting.. Any new insights into this question?


I've been looking into the HD Camcorder options lately. I have always assumed I would get a MiniDV camera, for the standard reasons: Unlimited storage capacity, Easy archive of original data, video usable/editable in many current tools.

But, the salesman seemed to think I was way off base, and the HDD based HD camcorders were far superior. It does seem like there were more new HDD camcorders than MiniDV units.. Have they overtaken MiniDV? Do they now use a decent codec that can be imported into mainstream editing apps, like iMovie HD?

Canon announced new AVCHD HDD camera (http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Canon-Finally-Releases-an-HDD-Camcorder---the-High-Definition-HG10-33084.htm)

Clearly, the market is there. Glick cited that in April, HDD camcorders accounted for 21 percent of sales (including HD and standard definition together). Sony unveiled its first high definition HDD more than a year ago, and have since released two more. Panasonic’s second model was announced less than a month ago. JVC has already followed up on its GZ-HD7 (Review, Specs, Recent News, $1529) Everio with a less expensive sibling model.

If the new HG10 from Canon can deliver HV20 like performance then I'll certainly consider it. I like the idea of ingesting video from a hard drive. I'm not worried about editing AVCHD because eventually I'll be using Final Cut Pro and the Apple recommended solution IIRC is to transcode the AVCHD into ProRes422 for easy editing.

I like the 15Mbps datarate. Finally AVCHD is getting where it needs to be.

Reading through this thread, there seems to be positive mention of MPEG2, but I've found problems editing MPEG2 files in Vegas, which prefers raw footage (which currently, for me, is DV). It seems to me that we'd want a camcorder which captures DV/AVI or whatever the HD equivalent is, wouldn't we?