Full bandwidth 24/192 multichannel audio over HDMI, for both SACD and DVD-A? Does such a player exist?

There are loads of such players for DVD-A; it's SACD that's the problem. Don't forget that the native form of SACD is 2.8MHz/1-bit DSD.

At the moment the only choices I'm aware of are the Oppo players, whose model numbers I forget, and the Sony PlayStation 3. If I recall correctly, both of these convert to PCM 176.4/24 or 88.2/24, depending on what your receiver can handle (many receivers can't handle multichannel at >96kHz).

There aren't yet any players that will send the original DSD up HDMI.

At the moment, the best bet (in sensible price brackets) appears to be i.Link or Denon Link.

There aren't yet any players that will send the original DSD up HDMI.PCM is fine, as long as it sends the highest audio bandwidth that is on the disc, without lossy conversions in the process.

At the moment, the best bet (in sensible price brackets) appears to be i.Link or Denon Link.Even then it's hard to find anything under $1500 with the other features I want. I guess I'll have to be resigned to the 5.1 analogs. Maybe I can tolerate that if everything else is connected to the receiver by HDMI or SPDIF.

I've read up on the Oppo 981 and it seems like it will indeed do the job of passing the high-bandwidth audio over HDMI. And it's only about $200. But I'll have to buy it from somewhere that allows returns, in case the SACD doesn't really work over HDMI.

The SONY SCD-XA9000ES has DSD out via iLink.

I am waiting a bit longer for the price to go down a little more before getting one.

No Sony (PS3 or STB) does DVD-A.

I've read up on the Oppo 981 and it seems like it will indeed do the job of passing the high-bandwidth audio over HDMI. And it's only about $200. But I'll have to buy it from somewhere that allows returns, in case the SACD doesn't really work over HDMI.

Direct from Oppo, you get a 30 day satisfaction deal and they'll pay for return shipping. Amazon has a nice return policy too but you'll have to pay for return shipping.

DVD-A does not have ANY MCH 192/24 output (it doesn't matter how much money you spend). The MCH limit is 96/24. SACD has to be converted (in most cases, though there are exceptions) and the 2 channel conversion is 176.4, while the MCH is 88.2 (both at 24 bits) for the most part. Theoretically, HD DVD and/or Blu-Ray can handle 192/24 MCH, but no such disc has been released, nor is there a player currently capable of such an audio output (though I'm not entirely certain about the last point regarding a player).

I'm pretty certain the PS3 converts multichannel SACD to 176.4kHz if the receiver can handle it.

DVD-A does not have ANY MCH 192/24 output (it doesn't matter how much money you spend). The MCH limit is 96/24. SACD has to be converted (in most cases, though there are exceptions) and the 2 channel conversion is 176.4, while the MCH is 88.2 (both at 24 bits) for the most part. Theoretically, HD DVD and/or Blu-Ray can handle 192/24 MCH, but no such disc has been released, nor is there a player currently capable of such an audio output (though I'm not entirely certain about the last point regarding a player).

The SONY is straight DSD stream via iLink. No conversion.

DVD-A does not have ANY MCH 192/24 output (it doesn't matter how much money you spend). The MCH limit is 96/24. SACD has to be converted (in most cases, though there are exceptions) and the 2 channel conversion is 176.4, while the MCH is 88.2 (both at 24 bits) for the most part. Theoretically, HD DVD and/or Blu-Ray can handle 192/24 MCH, but no such disc has been released, nor is there a player currently capable of such an audio output (though I'm not entirely certain about the last point regarding a player).
That is correct. Blu Ray and HD DVD can handle 192/24 MC using DTS Master Audio which is lossless. I'm looking into getting the DTS HD suite for my studio and possibly doing some classical venue recordings in MC at 192/24 using mostly Neumann microphones and Apogee Preamps.

I'm pretty certain the PS3 converts multichannel SACD to 176.4kHz if the receiver can handle it.Only if it is converting to the new DTS or Dolby lossless formats first, rather than to uncompressed PCM. And I don't think it is doing that.

The SONY is straight DSD stream via iLink. No conversion.There is no conversion if no bass management or time alignment is performed. I know of NO playback of DSD that includes BOTH bass management AND time alignment that does not also include a conversion of the DSD signal to PCM or multi-bit DXD (and sometimes back to DSD) for MCH playback.

Only if it is converting to the new DTS or Dolby lossless formats first, rather than to uncompressed PCM. And I don't think it is doing that.
I don't understand this comment. I'm saying it can convert to 176.4kHz multichannel PCM. However, most receivers probably don't support this, as it's beyond the capabilities of DVD-Audio.

What have DTS/Dolby got to do with it?

The SONY is straight DSD stream via iLink. No conversion.


Aha, but there is nothing to stop the receiving end to convert that to PCM before the DACs.

I don't understand this comment. I'm saying it can convert to 176.4kHz multichannel PCM. However, most receivers probably don't support this, as it's beyond the capabilities of DVD-Audio.

What have DTS/Dolby got to do with it?There is no provision for MCH PCM transmission above 96/24 in any gear at this time. ONLY the TrueHD Dolby or DTS HD MA codecs can carry that kind of information, so unless the DSD is being converted to one of those two codecs, then there is NO MCH conversion of DSD to anything higher than 96/24 (most likely 88.2/24) going on ANYWHERE in any player/receiver/pre-pro combination out there.

Er, you seem to be misunderstanding. No-one's talking about storing multichannel 176.4/24 on a disc, and I agree there's nothing yet than can do that (apart from DTS HD MA; I'm not actually sure that TrueHD can do it).

But HDMI has supported 8-channel 192/24 since HDMI 1.1, if I recall correctly. So there's no reason a PS3 can't output 5.1-channel 176.4/24, either from a converted SACD, or from game content.

Er, you seem to be misunderstanding. No-one's talking about storing multichannel 176.4/24 on a disc, and I agree there's nothing yet than can do that (apart from DTS HD MA; I'm not actually sure that TrueHD can do it).

But HDMI has supported 8-channel 192/24 since HDMI 1.1, if I recall correctly. So there's no reason a PS3 can't output 5.1-channel 176.4/24, either from a converted SACD, or from game content.In theory, it could, I suppose, but in reality, it isn't doing so. I just don't want people to get the impression that, at the moment, they can buy a device that outputs anything in MCH higher than 96/24 lossless. It just isn't happening yet.

Are you saying it doesn't actually do this? I thought I read reports that it did. Or was it that it was going to in a future software update?

No, I'm sure I read people commenting that they couldn't select multichannel 176.4kHz as an option on the PS3, because their receiver didn't handle it (but they could get 176.4kHz 2-channel).

Ah, here's an example post from someone saying their Sony receiver is reporting 5.1-channel 176.4kHz being sent from a PS3:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9445119&highlight=PS3+176+4kHz#post9445119

That's the first I hear/read of it. I will explore further (as I like to know what's out there). However, I think anyone would be hard pressed to blindly identify the difference between 176.4/24 and 88.2/24 (all other things being equal). In PCM, the bit depth is far more important than the sample rate (48/24, again all other things being equal, is better than 88.2/16--though I'm not aware of anything in that format except perhaps in upsampling CD players). Furthermore, with the quality of DACs and ADCs in much of today's gear (mid-fi and up), even after multiple conversions, hi-res still sounds better than standard res (again, all other things--rec. quality, etc.--being equal). Ultimately, we should all just get some hi-res audio gear and start spinning the tunes.

I think I'm going to go for a 5-disc SACD+DVDA changer, even though I can't find one that will send SACD over HDMI. I'll just have to place it directly above or below the receiver to minimize the cable entanglement, and use the HDMI for other devices. I generally don't listen to one album start to finish; I usually listen to a couple songs and then go on to the next disc, and I'd hate having to get up from the couch every 5 or 10 minutes to change discs.

However, the selection of such players seems to be severely limited. I couldn't find anything but the Yamaha C950 and C750, and the Marantz VC6001.

Still, I could consider having separate DVDA and SACD changers, provided the DVDA one will send audio over HDMI, since that would mean I can listen to 10 discs without leaving the couch. And doing that probably wouldn't cost much more than a single hybrid player, given the prices of the hybrids.

I have a Pioneer Elite DV-46AV and it only sends DVD-Audio over HDMI (when the output is set at 1080i).

I've read that the Oppo DV-981HD does both via HDMI and is an affordable way to obtain both formats over HDMI, but I believe that it converts SACD to MCH PCM.

I have a PS3 coupled with a sony str-dg1000. The receiver identifies the frequency on its display. I can verify that it plays multichannel SACDs at 176.4/24.

You could try the Esoteric DV-60 or the Arcam DV139. I believe both output the full res PCM from DVD-A and the DSD from SACD. The problem though is neither is inexpensive.

Could you clarify on the Arcam? This is the first I've heard that it has HDMI SACD output, and I'm struggling to find information.

One thing I've read suggests it outputs SACD as 176.4/24 PCM. Do you believe it can output DSD as well? Can you point me in the direction of any references? Arcam's site doesn't mention which version of HDMI it uses. The manual suggests it can output SACD over HDMI; it just doesn't say how.

In the DV137/9 SACD is exported as PCM over HDMI 1.1. This works just fine :-) It will run at 176.4 kHz 24 bit provided the downstream receiver / processor can accomodate that format.

There is in my opinion no advantage in exporting SACD as DSD. It would still need to be converted to PCM in the receiver / processor for bass management etc.

Hope this helps.

John Dawson (Arcam)

Thanks, John. At last I can add a proper ;) player to my rather short list of HDMI-capable SACD players (which up to now has just consisted of Oppo and the Sony PS3).

Just to stir things up on the DSD front - do you then not bother to have any direct DSD paths to your analogue outputs, seeing as you see no advantage...?

PS - any Arcam discounts to Cambridge residents?

John,

I do have one more sensible question - can the DV139 output high-res audio alongside SD pictures? This is something most players don't seem to bother to get right, but the DV139 manual doesn't mention any such limitation, whereas the DV137 does, which makes me hopeful.

If using HDMI, I'd want to keep open the possibility of an external scaler, so I'd want to be able to use the player at 576i with high-res audio. The fact that most players won't do this has so far inclined me towards i.Link rather than HDMI.

I am hoping that the new Denon DVM-2845CI that comes out next month will be HDMI 1.2A so I can use a single connection for SACD and DVD AUDIO.

If it is only HDMI 1.1, that would be rediculous at this point in time as 1.1 is now not a current standard and Denon should be supplying their customers 1.2A for obvious reasons.

If the 2845 HDMI version is 1.2A I will be buying one if it is 1.1 I will not buy it.

I totally agree. One of the most basic functions of a player should be to function as a transport - getting the signal off of the disc in a pure digital form for external use. Now that HDMI 1.2 exists, it should be an absolute no-brainer for any SACD player to include DSD output using it, just as a CD player includes S/PDIF and HDMI PCM outputs.

Of course, having HDMI 1.2 still doesn't mean it will output SACD digitally (whether as PCM or DSD), even though the hardware may be capable of it. It all depends on the deal Denon made with Sony. But if it does, I'm buying it (unless another company comes up with an equally capable 5-disc player real soon).

Too bad ... it's only HDMI 1.1, with DVD-Audio but not SACD available over HDMI.

http://www.usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/3420.asp

This is disgusting.........the only thing I can figure is that Denon knows we want 1.2A but does not want to supply it as they feel it may canibilize sales from their hi-end single units.

I already have a 2910 and would like a changer too, but, it does not look like anyone will spec one the way I want. The weight of this unit (9.9lbs) seems a little light. Usually a changer like that would weigh at least 13-16 lbs. I wonder how well it is built too!

I don't want to rip on Denon too much though because I am pleased that anyone would even make a SACD, DVD AUDIO capable changer at this point. I just wish they would realize that a customer that would buy this would also possibly be buying a 2930 or 3930 too! :mad:

Apparently the Yamaha and Marantz (soon to be joined by this Denon) are the only changers on the market that do both DVD-Audio and SACD. I wonder what was stopping them (and the other brands) all along? Is it Sony's restrictive SACD licensing ... perhaps demanding 5 times the licensing fee because the player has 5 discs? Or is it because SACD and DVD-A are thought of as audiophile formats, and most audiophiles only want single-disc players?

Or is it because SACD and DVD-A are thought of as audiophile formats, and most audiophiles only want single-disc players?I would think this is the primary reason.

the 2845ci is now on Denon's product page:
http://usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/3420.asp

says still hdmi 1.1

Does it do pal, ntsc and region free possibility?

Does it do pal, ntsc and region free possibility?The Denon is Region 1 and NTSC only. It might be hackable to be region-free, but I don't think PAL can be added to a player after the fact.

Looks like this new model due in May will offer DSD over HDMI without prior conversion to PCM

JOhn

Looks like this new model due in May will offer DSD over HDMI without prior conversion to PCM

JOhn


Any links?

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://store.yahoo.co.jp/audio-square/dv600av.html&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DPioneer%2BDV600AV%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dopera%26 rls%3Den%26hs%3DOaG

Looks like this new model due in May will offer DSD over HDMI without prior conversion to PCM

JOhn

John,

And what exactly would you id with DSD signal coming out of the player?

Is there an amp/preamp/sound processor capable of handling/decoding DSD?

I am not aware of any...

As far as I know the D/A conversion has to happen within the player (it has to happen somewhere along the audio path anyway...)

Receivers equipped with firewire connections for SACD (Pioneer and Denon are among them) are said to accept a DSD signal and convert it to analogue without a PCM conversion. Some can even apply bass management (if they use the "Sony solution"--a chip that may or may not convert DSD to PCM back to DSD, according to some literature on the 'net) while allegedly not converting the signal. However, there is NO piece of equipment that I know of that can apply time alignment to a DSD signal without a conversion to PCM OR an D/A then A/D then PCM then D/A for the final output. So, for those few people who have equidistant speaker placement, a pure MCH DSD signal is possible. For the rest, some sort of PCM conversion happens somewhere (but I would bet double the price of all my gear that in a blind test, no one could tell). As long as all the devices along the signal path are working correctly, there should be no audible difference (ducks his head :) ).

For 2 channel SACD playback, it is easy to maintain a pure DSD path--and it is usually the 2 channel crowd that has the largest percentage of people claiming they can tell the difference.

I have a player that supposedly does NOT do a PCM conversion for bass management (it cannot do time alignment). I also have a receiver that allows me to apply bass management to my analogue MCH input (it does an A/D/A conversion and applies BM/TA but no other DSP is enabled). I have compared the signal from my player using its bass management and my receiver using its bass management and, despite the extra conversion, I prefer my receiver's bass management as it uses a steeper crossover slope. Added to that, as an equidistant speaker placement is not possible in my room, I also get the benefit of time alignment. I can tell the difference between the slopes (it's not subtle) and I can tell the difference with and without time alignment (more subtle than the slope difference, but still noticeable). But, I have tried two channel SACD playback (which is certainly pure DSD from my player) vs. the receiver's A/D/A--but with no BM/TA on either (I left the settings to LARGE with no sub for each device to make this comparison--level matched as the receiver's level settings are NOT active with the MCH input) and I could not find an audible difference. Maybe it's my ears, maybe my speakers are not "revealing enough". The 2 channel comparison and the time alignment comparison were blind (my friend handled the switching and I wore a blindfold). The slope difference was not blind as we had to go into the player set up and switch from all LARGE to all SMALL to avoid double bass management.

In the end, I have found that though there may be a measurable "loss" of resolution on some measuring equipment by going through A/D/A conversions, my ears cannot detect such a loss. But I can detect the difference in slope and the lack of time alignment--so I will continue to use a non-purist approach until such time as I can have 5 full-range speakers equidistant from the listening chair (which may never happen). Even with some loss and all the conversions, the difference in resolution that remains vs redbook is also noticeable (with two quality recordings--a bad hi-res recording with over compression and poor recording techniques will be outshone by a high quality redbook, but if the quality levels are equal, the hi-res wins. 2 channel hi-res and 2 channel redbook differences are sometimes notable, sometimes minimal but MCH hi-res vs MCH standard res or lossy is almost always far superior).

Finally, in all this, for me, MCH trumps 2 channel whenever it is available in hi-res. Even my Frankenstein's set of conversions in MCH gives me a much more enjoyable experience than the "pure" 2 channel version of the same source.

Did any one get one yet? any reviews/impressions?

No Sony (PS3 or STB) does DVD-A.
PS3 does it beacause its using hdmi 1.3 sacd is played over ps3 hdmi 1.3 just like if it was going on muti audio .

PS3 does it beacause its using hdmi 1.3 sacd is played over ps3 hdmi 1.3 just like if it was going on muti audio .It doesn't do DVD-A, though. It will only access the lossy DD or DTS tracks.

John,

And what exactly would you do with DSD signal coming out of the player?



I assume that Pioneer will address this soon with updated receivers, if the DSD output is correct.

In principle, DSD could be used throughout the amplification system. However, it remains to be seen if that is actually practical and yields good results....

Anyway, I look forward the 600AV arriving so we can see how good the audio is via HDMI and whether the jitter is low enough to be an improvement over analogue conversion in the player.

At the low price suggested and as OPPO does not sell in Hong Kong, I'll certainly give the Pioneer a try

John

Is there an amp/preamp/sound processor capable of handling/decoding DSD?
Marantz SR7001
Marantz SR8001
Pioneer VSX-AX4ASi (VSX-74TXSi), and maybe the AX2AS/VSX-74TXS
Yamaha RX-V1700
Yamaha RX-V2700

and anything with i.Link, I believe.

In many cases they will convert to PCM though, for EQ/bass management, etc. But some of those certainly have paths for direct DSD->analogue conversion.

Marantz SR7001
Marantz SR8001
Pioneer VSX-AX4ASi (VSX-74TXSi), and maybe the AX2AS/VSX-74TXS
Yamaha RX-V1700
Yamaha RX-V2700

and anything with i.Link, I believe.

In many cases they will convert to PCM though, for EQ/bass management, etc. But some of those certainly have paths for direct DSD->analogue conversion.


Wow. I did not know that. My bad.

PS3 does it beacause its using hdmi 1.3 sacd is played over ps3 hdmi 1.3 just like if it was going on muti audio .Not only does the PS3 not do DVD-A it also does not rely on HDMI 1.3 for SACD (DSD). It converts DSD to PCM and transmits it that format over HDMI. You can use a HDMI 1.1 receiver with the PS3 and do SACD. I'm not sure the the PS3 can send the raw DSD stream. I'll have to check the menu system and beyond that there aren't a whole lot of HDMI 1.3 receivers in the real world yet to actually check it.

Also, another problem was encountered.

The Marantz SR7001/SR8001 both accept DSD over HDMI, but it does not appear that either will decode DST, required on MCH and used on most stereo SACDs. One user on here in the Marantz thread has been able to get his PS3 to output a DSD signal, which his Marantz locks onto and displays the DSD light, but since it has DST compression he gets no sound and as soon as it goes to the next track the PS3 realizes his receiver can't play the signal and it drops to PCM.

Also, another problem was encountered.

The Marantz SR7001/SR8001 both accept DSD over HDMI, but it does not appear that either will decode DST, required on MCH and used on most stereo SACDs. One user on here in the Marantz thread has been able to get his PS3 to output a DSD signal, which his Marantz locks onto and displays the DSD light, but since it has DST compression he gets no sound and as soon as it goes to the next track the PS3 realizes his receiver can't play the signal and it drops to PCM.Could you give us a link? I'd thought it was impossible to get DST from the PS3, since it sounded like all the compression and conversion was being done onboard (according to the engineers).

No, the Marantz won't decode DST, but I wouldn't expect it to. Are you sure the PS3 is actually outputting a DST signal? What makes you think that?

The PS3 shouldn't attempt to output a DST signal, because it should detect that the receiver can't handle it. And I'm not sure why the PS3 would want to output DST - if it can convert DST->DSD->PCM, then it can certainly do DST->DSD. You'd normally expect the player to do all decoding and decompression, so that you only get raw uncompressed PCM or DSD on the HDMI interface.

Oh, and just to make clear if anyone's still confused. HDMI 1.2 added the option of transferring DSD. HDMI 1.3 added the option of DST. This latter addition in HDMI 1.3 is probably as pointless as the addition of TrueHD etc (see "Why you don't need" thread stickied).

offtopic

Could I use my computer as a SACD player?

Thanks!

offtopic
Could I use my computer as a SACD player?
Thanks!There are no SACD computer drives.
And, btw, what's DST? I know DSD and DXD but that's a new one on me.

Apart from cable convenience, is that any particular technical advantage transporting the DSD stream via HDMI as opposed to i.link?

On the Arcam, it's all very well the DV137/9 exports PCM over HDMI but will the Arcam HDMI equipped receivers decode PCM?

There are no SACD computer drives.
And, btw, what's DST? I know DSD and DXD but that's a new one on me.

Daylight Savings Time, of course :p

Or Direct Stream Transfer, the lossless compressed encoding method by which DSD data is stored on the disc. DST is analogous to Meridian Lossless Packing in DVD-Audio. DST is said to be a very efficient form of lossless compression because of the "simplicity" of the 1-bit structure of DSD data, typically allowing for a 50% reduction in bit rate. In other words, twice as much music can be stored on an SACD because of use of the DST encoding, as could be stored if only uncompressed DSD were used.

http://www.daisy-laser.com/technology/techsacd/techsacd14.htm
http://www.daisy-laser.com/technology/techsacd/techsacd15.htm

Daylight Savings Time, of course :p

Or Direct Stream Transfer, the lossless compressed encoding method by which DSD data is stored on the disc. DST is analogous to Meridian Lossless Packing in DVD-Audio. DST is said to be a very efficient form of lossless compression because of the "simplicity" of the 1-bit structure of DSD data, typically allowing for a 50% reduction in bit rate. In other words, twice as much music can be stored on an SACD because of use of the DST encoding, as could be stored if only uncompressed DSD were used.

http://www.daisy-laser.com/technology/techsacd/techsacd14.htm
http://www.daisy-laser.com/technology/techsacd/techsacd15.htm

Thanks.

Apart from cable convenience, is that any particular technical advantage transporting the DSD stream via HDMI as opposed to i.link?

On the Arcam, it's all very well the DV137/9 exports PCM over HDMI but will the Arcam HDMI equipped receivers decode PCM?
no sound difference and it works unlike the new hdmi may or may not.

Daylight Savings Time, of course :p

Or Direct Stream Transfer, the lossless compressed encoding method by which DSD data is stored on the disc. DST is analogous to Meridian Lossless Packing in DVD-Audio. DST is said to be a very efficient form of lossless compression because of the "simplicity" of the 1-bit structure of DSD data, typically allowing for a 50% reduction in bit rate. In other words, twice as much music can be stored on an SACD because of use of the DST encoding, as could be stored if only uncompressed DSD were used.





That's interesting. All the lossless compression methods I know off can only provide around 40-45% compression for 16bit PCM (redbook)... Seems like DSD is wasting a lot of bits. On the other hand if it is easily compressible, who cares...

Marantz SR7001
Marantz SR8001
Pioneer VSX-AX4ASi (VSX-74TXSi), and maybe the AX2AS/VSX-74TXS
Yamaha RX-V1700
Yamaha RX-V2700

and anything with i.Link, I believe.

In many cases they will convert to PCM though, for EQ/bass management, etc. But some of those certainly have paths for direct DSD->analogue conversion.


Thee Onkyo and Integra ILink amps and preamp definitely do pure DSD to their Wolfson DACs. They convert to PCM if anything except level adjustment is needed though.

To add a little something that some people might find interesting, many I-Link amps can handle 24/192 5.1 but a Bluray/HDDVD player with I-Link is not looking likely at this point in time.

Thanks.

And thank you for tolerating my bad jokes. By the way, I found in a search that DXD (Direct eXtreme Digital) is an extremely high bandwidth PCM-like format used by some recording studios in editing and mixing SACDs:

http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/noisesheng.html

but it also stands for some kind of Mickey Mouse multimedia web site :D:

http://disney.go.com/dxd/index.html?channel=16928&transitionURL=swfs%2Fintros%2Fdxd_intro_home.swf

That's interesting. All the lossless compression methods I know off can only provide around 40-45% compression for 16bit PCM (redbook)... Seems like DSD is wasting a lot of bits. On the other hand if it is easily compressible, who cares...
It has nothing to do with DSD wasting bits, it is the nature (simplicity of data) of the DSD bitstream. i.e. it is more predictable then PCM.

It has nothing to do with DSD wasting bits, it is the nature (simplicity of data) of the DSD bitstream. i.e. it is more predictable then PCM.

By the way, what is the bandwidth of DSD stream both compressed and uncompressed (I understand the SACD stores DSD compressed, correct)?

2.8 Mbps per channel... I think DST typically compresses by a factor of two or three.