OFFICIAL Hsu MBM-12 thread [Text View] - Page 2

WaveyD4vey

01-20-09, 03:55 AM

JimP

01-20-09, 04:46 AM

Ryan W

01-20-09, 12:37 PM

Jrunr,

It's no difference in size from what I understand. The simply unbox it, seal the port and make a few modifications to optimize the sound.

WaveyD4vey

01-20-09, 08:28 PM

WaveyD4vey,

You can make yourself crazy with trying to figure out which test tones are off.

Most of us find that subwoofer and by extention MBM levels equal to the other speakers sound a bit anemic and run these devices 3 to 5 dbs hotter than the other speakers. I'd recommend using just the spl meter to set levels using your receiver's internal test tones, then use REW to get the response curve where you want it. Then use the spl meter again to get the levels right.

Do check your DVD player and see if it has some kind of bass enhancement thing turned on. Same with your receiver/preamp for that input. Some systems allow tonal adjustments per input and yours may have that set.

Best of luck with the MBM. I tried it for at least 6 months before I gave up on it. In concept, I think its a great idea. Where I had a big problem was with intergrating it with my sub and other speakers.

ya i see what your saying about the levels...on some parts of music im VERY familiar with i find myself saying where the hell did that bass line go off to? i can still feel it but its definately not like it was before i equalised my subs out...but then again i had a GIANT peak from 65hz down to 58hz of about 10db...so i think that might explain it...ive just been so used to things not sounding the way they should...other than a few complaints like that i find the rest of my listening is much improved from before.

thing is when i match my MBM with my main speakers it is definately to loud...but then again thats using the test tones on avia...the test ones on my receiver i havent tried out yet but i will...i do run the MBM about 2db hot according to the LFE sweep test on avia...like i said, when i do the test on avia where you match the subwoofer volume to the speakers and match it perfectly and then go to the LFE sweep test my SPL meter starts reading about 10db above where my speakers and sub were supposedly calibrated to...LOL...frustrating but i love it...in a way...haha...:rolleyes:

ill probly just leave it like it is...ive had these subs long enough now to where i can just tell by ear for the most part where the levels need to be...from there i can use my SPL meter and REW to perfect it...but i think ill just stick with using the LFE sweep test on avia as i think that one is much more accurate.

i dont own a copy of DVE...are the test tones on there any better? or is there no difference?

lefthandluke

01-20-09, 10:47 PM

Can you run the MBM-12 from the R and L channel pre-out as opposed to the LFE? Is there even a reason to do this? Will there be a diferent performance factor this way? just curious...

i'm curious about this too...

i have two "true subs" up front next to my mains...they are connected by coax from a velo sms-1 to the LFE input on the subs

now, i'm thinking about 2 MBM's connected via coax from the main L/R pre-outs and placed nearfield, one on each side of my LP, not controlled by the sms-1. the MBM's would be complimenting the mains only, not connected to the LFE.

anyone tried this type of setup...?

or are the MBM's better hooked up to LFE only?

bsoko2

01-21-09, 12:27 AM

cyberbri

01-21-09, 12:47 AM

alright ive owned the MBM 12 for a while now...about 7 months or so...ive owned the VTF3HO with turbo for about a year and a half...ive never really gone into detail trying to find an answer to this question before but now that ive gotten really serious about taming my frequencys with my new behringer feedback destroyer i need to know.

now whenever i use AVIA to set my subwoofer levels i first turn off the HO and have only the MBM on...i then match them to the levels of my mains...then i turn off the MBM and turn on the HO and match it to the mains...now when i go to the sub calibration part of the disc and do the same test with both subs on it reads that the levels are correct with my mains...HOWEVER, when i do a LFE sweep it reads about 10db above the level of my mains from my corssover point which is 80hz all the way down to 10hz...the second i listen to music i can tell the subs are about 10db hot.

im using a radioshack SPL meter...i also use REW...i have the crossovers set correctly on both subs so thats not the problem...im thinking it has something to do with the way avia outputs test ones.

so the way ive been calibrating my subs is this...i measure with my SPL meter (with corrected values of course) in REW...i then use the EQ filters to give me an idea of how i need to set the filters on my BFD...i then bring everything down to 75db...then when i think ive got it close i pop in AVIA and run a test tone through my speakers and make sure i have my receiver turned up loud enough for the test tone to measure 75db on the SPL meter...then i do a LFE sweep and make sure the LFE sweep doesnt deviate to much from 75db...hope all that made sense.

i know i have all the levels set up correctly i was just wanting to know if anyone else has such problems with avia or if anyone else has had to set it up this way.

The sweep tones are much louder than the test tones, they are not the same 85dB (on Avia). You have to turn the volume down when you run the sweeps. Or are you saying that when you run 200-20Hz tone, the volume jumps around the frequency where the subs take over?

If it's the latter, then the bass in the mains is down from the average SPL of the speaker (where the speaker level is matched). This could be due to the speakers themselves, room acoustics, speakers not being very close to the wall (the closer they are, the more the bass is reinforced), or a combination of these factors.

Since you have an MBM, I suggest you set the crossover in the receiver, between the speakers and the sub, much higher. Like 150Hz. The MBM is made to do that, and will give you great mid-bass. That assumes the MBM isn't behind you, because if it is, you won't want that much mid-bass coming from behind you. It will be very distracting (low registers of male voices and more).

Also, when you calibrate the HO, you MUST disable any crossover in the sub limiting the output (which you use to filter out freqs above that are being played by the MBM). You have to run the HO at its full range to set the level, because most of the bass in the sub test tone is above 50Hz. Once you set the level on the HO, then you re-engage the crossover. I hope this is how you are doing it. Otherwise the HO's level will be way too high and throw off the sound of the bass.

But make sure you are eq'ing the subs' combined output with the BFD, then re-calibrating with Avia to set the subs at the correct level. When you cut frequencies with the eq, you cut the volume, so it will be lower than before.

*And remember that Avia test tones are recorded at 85dB. If you are measuring to 75dB, that's your "-10" point. I personally use Avia and calibrate to 80dB, finding my -5 point.

cyberbri

01-21-09, 12:50 AM

but i think ill just stick with using the LFE sweep test on avia as i think that one is much more accurate.

i dont own a copy of DVE...are the test tones on there any better? or is there no difference?

REW, running tones through the receiver, measuring with the meter (on a tripod) and reading out on the screen, is much more accurate than Avia. When you use REW and measure with the meter, you get very accurate readings. With Avia and reading the meter manually, you get a much less accurate picture of what is going on.

cyberbri

01-21-09, 12:52 AM

like i said, when i do the test on avia where you match the subwoofer volume to the speakers and match it perfectly and then go to the LFE sweep test my SPL meter starts reading about 10db above where my speakers and sub were supposedly calibrated to...LOL...frustrating but i love it...in a way...haha...:rolleyes:

The sweep isn't recorded at the same volume as the test tones. The test tones are at 85dB and meant to be used to calibrate levels - lots of frequencies at once. The sweeps are just sweeps, you can't level match with them.

cyberbri

01-21-09, 12:56 AM

i'm curious about this too...

i have two "true subs" up front next to my mains...they are connected by coax from a velo sms-1 to the LFE input on the subs

now, i'm thinking about 2 MBM's connected via coax from the main L/R pre-outs and placed nearfield, one on each side of my LP, not controlled by the sms-1. the MBM's would be complimenting the mains only, not connected to the LFE.

anyone tried this type of setup...?

or are the MBM's better hooked up to LFE only?

That would work. You just wouldn't be able to eq them. Since they would run off the l/r outputs, you would need to lower the receiver's XO point to 50~Hz since the MBM would be playing that part, with the sub playing below. However the speakers themselves and the MBMs would be playing down to 50Hz, overlapping. So I would suggest running the speaker wire outs from the receiver to the MBMs, use the MBMs' high-pass crossover in each back out to the respective speaker. That way only the MBMs are playing down to 50Hz, with no overlap. Could work, but kind of like 6 of one and half a dozen of the other, compared to having MBMs as part of the LFE chain.

If I were going to do it, personally I'd put the MBMs next to the speakers up front, use the MBM's crossover to blend them, and crossover at 150Hz give or take. So that mid-bass really is coming from up front, by the speakers, and not from right next to you.

Jrunr

01-21-09, 12:30 PM

That would work. You just wouldn't be able to eq them. Since they would run off the l/r outputs, you would need to lower the receiver's XO point to 50~Hz since the MBM would be playing that part, with the sub playing below. However the speakers themselves and the MBMs would be playing down to 50Hz, overlapping. So I would suggest running the speaker wire outs from the receiver to the MBMs, use the MBMs' high-pass crossover in each back out to the respective speaker. That way only the MBMs are playing down to 50Hz, with no overlap. Could work, but kind of like 6 of one and half a dozen of the other, compared to having MBMs as part of the LFE chain.

If I were going to do it, personally I'd put the MBMs next to the speakers up front, use the MBM's crossover to blend them, and crossover at 150Hz give or take. So that mid-bass really is coming from up front, by the speakers, and not from right next to you.

That is what i am thinking about doing myself... I would place one, ortwo MBM's upfront next to my mains, and run them from about 50-100HZ. The only thing I am curious about is going to be the combo of those PLUS my mains in the midbass region. Combined with the high amounts of Amp power I am sending to my PSB Synchrony One towers... :eek:

I wonder if it will be over bearing...:confused::confused::confused:

bsoko2

01-21-09, 12:42 PM

That would work. You just wouldn't be able to eq them. Since they would run off the l/r outputs, you would need to lower the receiver's XO point to 50~Hz since the MBM would be playing that part, with the sub playing below. However the speakers themselves and the MBMs would be playing down to 50Hz, overlapping. So I would suggest running the speaker wire outs from the receiver to the MBMs, use the MBMs' high-pass crossover in each back out to the respective speaker. That way only the MBMs are playing down to 50Hz, with no overlap. Could work, but kind of like 6 of one and half a dozen of the other, compared to having MBMs as part of the LFE chain.

If I were going to do it, personally I'd put the MBMs next to the speakers up front, use the MBM's crossover to blend them, and crossover at 150Hz give or take. So that mid-bass really is coming from up front, by the speakers, and not from right next to you.

cyberbri haven't heard from you in awhile, as for the rest of you on this thread, cyberbri knows his stuff so pay attention!

Bill

cyberbri

01-21-09, 12:50 PM

That is what i am thinking about doing myself... I would place one, ortwo MBM's upfront next to my mains, and run them from about 50-100HZ. The only thing I am curious about is going to be the combo of those PLUS my mains in the midbass region. Combined with the high amounts of Amp power I am sending to my PSB Synchrony One towers... :eek:

I wonder if it will be over bearing...:confused::confused::confused:

I would use the internal MBM crossover with the speaker wire running from the receiver to the MBM, then to the speaker. Use the MBM crossover to blend the speakers and the MBMs to your liking. You'll most likely get a lot more mid-bass slam letting the MBMs handle up to 100~150Hz. Lower if you want the towers to play more of the mid-bass. You can experiment to see what sounds best. Based on speaker and MBM placement, you may find that the room acoustics make it better to use one over the other, despite the theoreticals of what the equipment specs say. The biggest factor of how your equipment sounds is your room and the acoustics of your space. ;D

If you double up in that region between the MBM and the speakers, you could get more bass, and it could muddy it up as well. I personally would do the above - blend the MBM and the speaker so they blend well and you get the most amount of slam. Treat the MBM like (a self-powered) part of the speaker.

cyberbri

01-21-09, 12:51 PM

cyberbri haven't heard from you in awhile, as for the rest of you on this thread, cyberbri knows his stuff so pay attention!

Bill

Hey! Yes, been very busy with work, to say the least. Plus, hanging around here too much makes me want to upgrade my system (or my subs at least).

bsoko2

01-21-09, 12:58 PM

Hey! Yes, been very busy with work, to say the least. Plus, hanging around here too much makes me want to upgrade my system (or my subs at least).

Yes, now what you mean. I went mad and got a set of Polk SDA's. Love em for 2-channel music and HT. I plan on stopping for now and save some green for the next upgrade (whatever that is).

Bill

lefthandluke

01-24-09, 02:09 PM

just wondering...how inert is the mbm's cabinet?

used in a nearfield setup, could i place rubber discs on it's top, place a glass top on it, and use it as an end table...?

WaveyD4vey

01-24-09, 04:53 PM

REW, running tones through the receiver, measuring with the meter (on a tripod) and reading out on the screen, is much more accurate than Avia. When you use REW and measure with the meter, you get very accurate readings. With Avia and reading the meter manually, you get a much less accurate picture of what is going on.

im still messing around with it a little bit...i did have it calibrated correctly with the XO on the HO turned all the way up when i was using avia...so sounds like i did everything right...like u said i think ill just stick to REW since im getting the feeling from what you and people at hometheatershack are saying...sounds like its more accurate

WaveyD4vey

01-24-09, 08:22 PM

my bad...lol...i DIDNT have the x-over set all the way up on the HO when i calibrated it with avia...that was where my problem area was...i could have sworn i did but i didnt...now that i recalibrated that way my levels on avia are perfect when i do the speaker and subwoofer level matching tests...well actually about 1db "hot"...not to hot though if u ask me...hehe...my levels on REW are good now as well in conunction with my speakers level...and the test tones on my receiver match my mains and my subs just like avia, 1db hot...so looks like i finally got it...FINALLY!

Scottfox

01-25-09, 05:07 PM

I have had my VTF2.3 for almost 2 years. I've been happy with it, but I'm not getting that hit in the chest feeling others talk about. Considering adding MBM-12, though it's an expensive "add-on". Also considering selling the 2.3 & switching to MFW-15 or new SVS PC12-nsd. Any suggestions? Is there anyone out the in D/FW land with an MBM that can do a demo for me?
I've been to a couple of homes with a dedicated home theater, & was blown away at how hard they hit. Both large rooms, 1 had dual MFW's the other dual Epik Towers. When WOTW played and the road split open B4 the Pod emerged, I thought the floor of the HT room was going to split with it :eek:

My room is 11 x 19 x 9 and has an openeing in the rear right corner to the kitchen. I have older Polk Monitor 10's as my mains. Pioneer VSX-816 receiver with Xover set at 80. Is the VTF2.3 not enough sub? I've tried 1 port & 2. Single port starts to chuff with deep effects, so I have both open for max output. Would putting a door between the Den & kitchen help the room to pressurize & get the hit in the chest feeling I am lacking? Open to all suggestions.

rw88

01-26-09, 02:42 PM

Would putting a door between the Den & kitchen help the room to pressurize & get the hit in the chest feeling I am lacking? Open to all suggestions.

If you're able to reduce the total volume to which your HT room is connected by adding a door, by all means do so... and try that change first before changing your sub. I have a VTF3.3 (in max extension mode) that does that WOTW scene quite well, but I have not heard a 2.3... I dunno if that's enough sub to give you the impact that you're looking for, even in a smaller volume room.

cyberbri

01-26-09, 02:56 PM

a3plew

01-26-09, 03:32 PM

lefthandluke

01-26-09, 09:04 PM

well...just ordered one mbm-12:)

i've been following this thread for a while with much interest...

looking forward to experimenting with this sub...no doubt i'll be asking for advice

bsoko2

01-26-09, 10:55 PM

well...just ordered one mbm-12:)

i've been following this thread for a while with much interest...

looking forward to experimenting with this sub...no doubt i'll be asking for advice

Here is some info on how to calibrate a MBM with a true sub: http://forum.hsuresearch.com/showpost.php?p=33939&postcount=33.

Bill

John H

01-27-09, 12:04 AM

I ordered mine today sealed. It was a $50 charge. I think that overall the sealed is more flexible for placement. The retool it apparently to adjust for the difference from sealed vs ported. The rep I spoke said I would be one of the very few people to have a sealed model. So I will share my thoughts when I get it.

Ryan W,

Have you received your sealed MBM-12 yet?

John

stevegamble66

01-28-09, 10:31 AM

cyberbri

01-28-09, 10:39 AM

I have a Question regarding hook up of my 2 MBM's.

I'm using my sub out(LFE) and have it running 50-160hz (w/receiver). I tried using my Output on my true sub, which is high passed at 80hz so I'd get >80hz to 160hz
felt a little boomy.. when I allowed it to play all of the 50 or <50 up to 160hz it was better. I also tried 200hz LFE out. affected dialog a bit too much.. I'm still experimenting.
New room set up, so a Lot of calibrating to do. (14speakers) 11.5 x 20 room. 7.5' ceiling.

Q.
What IF.. I run my LFE to one input.. and my Front Right (pre out) to the MBM by the front right speaker.
+ I run my LFE to one input.. and my Left Front (pre out) to the MBM by my Left front speaker.

This way.. when in a movie the producer has a 63hz? sound effect running on the left side... missed by right or LFE ? I pick it up on the right side and add realism to the scene as I'd be getting enhanced effect of what was shown in the theatre...sorta?

http://photobucket.com/steveshometheatre

Still under reno's... new stage front to come this weekend.

I wouldn't run the pre-outs for the left/rights to the MBMs because the main speakers will still be playing that range of bass.

Here are your 2 options:

--Set the receiver xo to 160Hz or whatever you want, and then run the sub out to the MBM(s) and the sub. Engage main sub XO where it crosses with the MBM (ie. 50Hz) - but only after calibrating / setting the level with the XO disabled and the sub running by itself.

--Set the receiver xo to 40~60Hz and run the sub out to the main sub. Run the speaker outputs (speaker wire) to the MBM for either side, then back out to the speakers. Use the xo in the MBM(s) to blend the sound with the speakers, say at 120~160Hz. Calibrate the main sub with the above method - must calibrate with the sub running regular range (up to 80~100Hz) to get correct level setting - then enable whatever crossover setting you want to use.

You shouldn't have as much a problem with localization of higher frequencies from the MBM(s) as long as they are up front, preferably as close to the actual speakers as possible. Even at an 80Hz crossover, if the sub is behind you, you may get too much localization (in music, deep voice in movie dialog, etc.).

stevegamble66

01-28-09, 11:10 AM

Sounds good.. I had to read that twice.. but I got it.

Now if I were to switch my fronts to small and use pre out R / L receiver XO @160hz.
Would that give me the same thing?
Or ,the receiver would pass the the <160hz ALL to the LFE ?
None to pre out R/L.

Anyone try high level input (speaker wire) back out to speakers.. and LFE in combonation as well.
Can this blend and sound better than LFE Mono alone?

cyberbri

01-28-09, 12:42 PM

Sounds good.. I had to read that twice.. but I got it.

Now if I were to switch my fronts to small and use pre out R / L receiver XO @160hz.
Would that give me the same thing?
Or ,the receiver would pass the the <160hz ALL to the LFE ?
None to pre out R/L.

If you set the receiver XO to 160Hz, you will need the MBMs hooked to the LFE out. Otherwise, if you have them hooked to the mains, they will only get bass down to 160Hz since they would be part of the chain for the main speakers.

If you have the MBMs as part of the LFE chain, then you are good to raise the XO in the receiver up to 150~200Hz (make sure the MBMs are up front, close to the speakers, the higher you go). If the MBMs are hooked to the main speakers, then the receiver XO should be 50Hz or wherever you want to crossover between the MBM and the main sub.

But if you hook the MBMs to the mains, don't use the analog pre-outs, for the reason I mentioned - if you do use the pre-outs, you'll have the speakers playing that same bass as the MBMs, which could possibly cause cancellation and phase effects. You want the MBMs to be the only ones playing that range.

As to your other question, about which would sound better... There are trade-offs.

If you have an MBM hooked to the left/right mains, then you can get added benefit of the stereo / directional bass. There's often bass sent to the main channels, not just LFE. So you could get more of the effect of it coming from the speaker it was intended to come from.

On the other hand, having the MBMs hooked to the mains means that the MBMs don't play any of the 50Hz+ bass present in the LFE track (which can go up to 120Hz). So in this case the main sub would be playing 50Hz and below from the signal re-routed from the rest of the speakers, plus the full LFE signal (don't engage the main sub's internal XO in this setup case, because you'll filter out this LFE-only bass above 50Hz).

Hope that makes sense. :D

Ryan W

01-28-09, 03:06 PM

Ryan W,

Have you received your sealed MBM-12 yet?

John

I have it, but I really haven't had much time to play with it. It's nice and punchy, but I feel like the sound can be localized (xo as 110hz). I am trying to blend it all, my Galaxy CM-140 should be in this week so I can play withe the level and REW and all that stuff, but I probably won't get to that for a month or so. Also my true sub can only be set to a 40hz or 60hz XO, so I need to figure out what is the best way to blend that.

stevegamble66

01-28-09, 05:58 PM

If you set the receiver XO to 160Hz, you will need the MBMs hooked to the LFE out. Otherwise, if you have them hooked to the mains, they will only get bass down to 160Hz since they would be part of the chain for the main speakers.

If you have the MBMs as part of the LFE chain, then you are good to raise the XO in the receiver up to 150~200Hz (make sure the MBMs are up front, close to the speakers, the higher you go). If the MBMs are hooked to the main speakers, then the receiver XO should be 50Hz or wherever you want to crossover between the MBM and the main sub.

But if you hook the MBMs to the mains, don't use the analog pre-outs, for the reason I mentioned - if you do use the pre-outs, you'll have the speakers playing that same bass as the MBMs, which could possibly cause cancellation and phase effects. You want the MBMs to be the only ones playing that range.

As to your other question, about which would sound better... There are trade-offs.

If you have an MBM hooked to the left/right mains, then you can get added benefit of the stereo / directional bass. There's often bass sent to the main channels, not just LFE. So you could get more of the effect of it coming from the speaker it was intended to come from.

On the other hand, having the MBMs hooked to the mains means that the MBMs don't play any of the 50Hz+ bass present in the LFE track (which can go up to 120Hz). So in this case the main sub would be playing 50Hz and below from the signal re-routed from the rest of the speakers, plus the full LFE signal (don't engage the main sub's internal XO in this setup case, because you'll filter out this LFE-only bass above 50Hz).

Hope that makes sense. :D

I have Bass out to Both sub(LFE) and Mains, XO 200hz is for the others CTR was set large as well, until the MBM's arrived.
This sends 0-200hz to mains as well as LFE content under 200 to sub.
I use the EQ to try to balance the sound, but prefer bass to both.
this "Bass to both" setting is automatically cancelled if I set Mains to small.
as per manual Yamaha HTR6190.
It also says any speakers with 6.5" driver/woofers be set to large ?
Including surround speakers. ?
That applies to all my speakers... But if I set ctr to large my Buttkickers drop in output by half.
anyway..
I think I'll stick with LFE fed material for now.

stevegamble66

02-01-09, 08:30 AM

If I hook up speaker r/l to high level input on MBM...I get a loud hummm..
I get Very low, almost inaudible hum regardless.. the higher the frq. the louder the hum.
I tried a ground loop isolator and got a Loud Hum, 100X worse.?

All brand New Monster 450 to 850 series Subwoofer and Y Cables.

srw1000

02-01-09, 02:48 PM

Looks like a redesign is in store, according to Pete in the Hsu Forums (http://forum.hsuresearch.com/showthread.php?t=8938):

Hi everyone,

I just wanted to give you some advance notice about an exciting new product announcement regarding MBM-12. To start, I would like to mention that we only have extremely low quantity of vinyl black MBM-12's in stock right now, and it will be several months before the MBM-12 is back in stock.

So you may be wondering, why will it take several months to re-stock MBM-12?

The answer to this question is that we have decided to re-design the MBM-12 and release a newer version later this year.

The new MBM-12 will have the following features:

1) Variable tuning capability! One can simply add or remove a supplied 4" foam port plug and flip a bass extension switch on the amp to switch between 'Sealed' or 'Ported' Mode

2) Wireless connectivity option will be available! This will make it much easier to position the MBM in the nearfield without running subwoofer cables across the room.

3) New finishes will be available! Standard finish will be Satin Black, and several luxury finishes will be available as well

So this unit will be perfect to use with the ULS-15, or any of our other true subwoofers. Price is still to be determined, and will have to go up a bit, but hopefully not too much. The size and shape and orientation of woofer/port will still be the same as the current MBM-12, but with all the changes mentioned above.

I am really excited about this unit, and hope you will be too in the months ahead!

Looks pretty exciting. Too bad about the price increase, though. Maybe they'll offer some kind of introductory pricing.

Scott

gnocchi

02-01-09, 06:45 PM

What will the difference be when using the port plug in the new MBM-12, sound wise?

ccarzoo

02-02-09, 10:56 AM

cyberbri

02-02-09, 03:54 PM

If I have all of my speakers calibrated to 75 on the spl meter, with corrections, all of my frequencies are very close to 75-77. When you guys say running the sub hot, what exactly does that mean. If I calibrate to 75 I have to jack my master volume to 0 sometimes into the plus region of my Onkyo 804 to get the bass I desire. Is this damaging my sub? I can keep the volume at -10 but i turn up the bass +4 dbs in the receiver's sub output. Is this considered running too hot?

If you calibrate the speakers and sub to 75dB, then the sub is already 2dB or so "hot" (above the level of the speakers) because the meter is less sensitive in the bass region.

What equipment do you have, and how are you calibrating? Are you running a disc through the player you normally use? You may have to set the receiver up to add 10dB to the LFE signal, sometimes tricky with new players and HDMI.

Most people cannot turn up the receiver to "0" or higher without it being uncomfortable to listen. So you either have a 10dB setting issue, or the sub is just in a really bad location so you're getting a big peak or two that throw off the whole calibration and make it sound like there's not much bass. You can certainly turn up the sub 4 notches in the receiver, but I recommend to you try to get to the bottom of the issue before you just turn up the sub volume.

srw1000

02-02-09, 09:56 PM

What will the difference be when using the port plug in the new MBM-12, sound wise?There's a thread (http://forum.hsuresearch.com/showthread.php?t=8782) about it on the HSU forum. Here's what Pete says:The situation where I can see the sealed MBM being more advantageous than the ported MBM is when the MBM is located very close to the true sub. The low frequency rolloff of the sealed MBM will match perfectly with the high frequency rolloff on our true subwoofers (when using the built-in low pass crossover network on the true subs), so they would theoretically blend better.It's nice that they'll be giving customers the option, at least for those that love to tweak.

Scott

King_David

02-03-09, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by Pete - Hsu
Hi everyone,

I just wanted to give you some advance notice about an exciting new product announcement regarding MBM-12. To start, I would like to mention that we only have extremely low quantity of vinyl black MBM-12's in stock right now, and it will be several months before the MBM-12 is back in stock.

So you may be wondering, why will it take several months to re-stock MBM-12?

The answer to this question is that we have decided to re-design the MBM-12 and release a newer version later this year.

The new MBM-12 will have the following features:

1) Variable tuning capability! One can simply add or remove a supplied 4" foam port plug and flip a bass extension switch on the amp to switch between 'Sealed' or 'Ported' Mode

2) Wireless connectivity option will be available! This will make it much easier to position the MBM in the nearfield without running subwoofer cables across the room.

3) New finishes will be available! Standard finish will be Satin Black, and several luxury finishes will be available as well

So this unit will be perfect to use with the ULS-15, or any of our other true subwoofers. Price is still to be determined, and will have to go up a bit, but hopefully not too much. The size and shape and orientation of woofer/port will still be the same as the current MBM-12, but with all the changes mentioned above.

I am really excited about this unit, and hope you will be too in the months ahead!

WOW.:eek:

ccarzoo

02-03-09, 09:40 PM

If you calibrate the speakers and sub to 75dB, then the sub is already 2dB or so "hot" (above the level of the speakers) because the meter is less sensitive in the bass region.

What equipment do you have, and how are you calibrating? Are you running a disc through the player you normally use? You may have to set the receiver up to add 10dB to the LFE signal, sometimes tricky with new players and HDMI.

Most people cannot turn up the receiver to "0" or higher without it being uncomfortable to listen. So you either have a 10dB setting issue, or the sub is just in a really bad location so you're getting a big peak or two that throw off the whole calibration and make it sound like there's not much bass. You can certainly turn up the sub 4 notches in the receiver, but I recommend to you try to get to the bottom of the issue before you just turn up the sub volume.

Sonance in wall thx select 7.1 speakers, Onkyo 804, Sony BDP 550 using analog outs to receiver. HSU 3.3 with turbo farfield in 5000 cubic foot soundproofed basement, mbm nearfield behind couch.

cyberbri

02-04-09, 04:31 AM

Sonance in wall thx select 7.1 speakers, Onkyo 804, Sony BDP 550 using analog outs to receiver. HSU 3.3 with turbo farfield in 5000 cubic foot soundproofed basement, mbm nearfield behind couch.

Definitely run a test disc like Avia or DVE through the player, to check the decoding and LFE signal. You may need to boost the LFE +10 in the receiver (or the player if it has that option) since you are using 6-chan analogs.

ccarzoo

02-04-09, 09:52 AM

Definitely run a test disc like Avia or DVE through the player, to check the decoding and LFE signal. You may need to boost the LFE +10 in the receiver (or the player if it has that option) since you are using 6-chan analogs.

cool, any idea where I can get either of these disks???

ccarzoo

02-05-09, 10:50 AM

anyone???

Joe741

02-05-09, 12:57 PM

I got my copy of DVE through Barnes & Noble? Should be a bunch of online vendors with one or the other or both, might try newegg?

Edit:

http://video.barnesandnoble.com/DVD/Avia-Vol-2-Guide-to-Home-Theater/e/684503000004/?itm=1

http://video.barnesandnoble.com/DVD/Digital-Video-Essentials/e/647715071224/?itm=5

weverb

02-14-09, 08:54 PM

I have a couple MBM's for sale for anyone interested. :)

http://forum.hsuresearch.com/showthread.php?p=37810&posted=1#post37810

goonstopher

03-23-09, 09:15 PM

JimP

03-23-09, 11:01 PM

goonstopher,

What frequencies are your two huge subs setup to output?

goonstopher

03-23-09, 11:07 PM

They aren't set up yet... But have wanted an MBM for a while and could get a good deal.

bori

03-23-09, 11:12 PM

sellin an mbm-12 on avs classfied b

JimP

03-23-09, 11:34 PM

They aren't set up yet... But have wanted an MBM for a while and could get a good deal.

Be sure you actually need one before going out and buying one.

I bought one not long after they came out and found that I really didn't need one not to mention that I had a bear of a time trying to intergrate it. Wound up selling it off.

bsoko2

03-24-09, 12:07 AM

Be sure you actually need one before going out and buying one.

I bought one not long after they came out and found that I really didn't need one not to mention that I had a bear of a time trying to intergrate it. Wound up selling it off.

I got two of them and they intergrate just fine.

Bill

mrcoop

03-24-09, 05:17 PM

Mine intergrated perfect...I have 2 hsu 3.3, one in the front right and one in the front left. My mbm's are next to the listening position. I experminted with the set up with WOW emergence scene when the pavement cracks. I treid it with the 3.3 with lfe set to in (crossover at 50) and the mbm's set to out (crossover 100 via the receiver). MAJOR fist punch in the chest when the pavement cracks. I then turned off the mbm's and switched the 3.3's set to out (crossover 100 via the receiver) to see if there was really any difference. Sure enough...I had know real thump in the chest. WORKED as described!!! I thought about getting rid of the 3.3's several times, but in no way would I consider getting rid of the mbm's...maybe the 3.3's just can't deliver that thump in the 50hz range. I then went and used my buddies mfw's in place of the 3.3 and had the same result...no chest pounding when the mbm's were off.

I was skeptical but if you can put them nearfield...they work like a charm. I tried putting them in front with the mains (not nearfield), and just didn't get what I wanted...chest pounding.

bsoko2

03-24-09, 05:23 PM

penngray

03-24-09, 05:29 PM

Wow!

I just saw 2 great deals in the forsale threads on MBMs? You guys notice them? Mia's dad pickup $250.....I wish I was out west!!! :eek:

goonstopher

03-24-09, 05:53 PM

I wish I had money now... I would take all of them oh well one day

bsoko2

03-24-09, 05:56 PM

They are "sealed". Ron wanted sealed MBM's last year so Dr. Hsu modified them for him.

Bill

mrcoop

03-24-09, 06:03 PM

Localization from the MBM's?

Bill

Bill, for whatever reason, sometimes I do and sometimes I do not...maybe the higher frequency is what I am noticing...I thought about dropping the crossover to 80 to see if that would help and may do that since you have said something and will probably have no ill affect on what I want to get out of the mbm's. But honestly, I will certainly live with what minor localization that may occur for the chest hitting material I am getting. I think everyones ears are different...some may like no localization...but for for me the trade off is well worth it.

bsoko2

03-24-09, 07:39 PM

Bill, for whatever reason, sometimes I do and sometimes I do not...maybe the higher frequency is what I am noticing...I thought about dropping the crossover to 80 to see if that would help and may do that since you have said something and will probably have no ill affect on what I want to get out of the mbm's. But honestly, I will certainly live with what minor localization that may occur for the chest hitting material I am getting. I think everyones ears are different...some may like no localization...but for for me the trade off is well worth it.

Localization was too much for me. That is why I decided to run the MBM's one with each main and the HSU 3.3's co-located in the right rear corner of a 18X28X14 ft room (cathedral ceilings, lodge style). I get 107 db on GFP the skidoosh scene.

Bill

mjg100

03-24-09, 09:02 PM

I am sure this has been answered but I can't find it...

Can I use the speaker wires out of my mains and center and hook them up to an MBM then go out to the speakers from there?

I have 2 huge subs and could use some help with my speakers bass but don't need any LFE help.

Are you wanting to fill in between your mains and your subs? I would think a pair of MBM's high passed to your mains would do well. Then set your AVR to LFE + mains.

bsoko2

03-25-09, 12:20 AM

Are you wanting to fill in between your mains and your subs? I would think a pair of MBM's high passed to your mains would do well. Then set your AVR to LFE + mains.

I did have my dual MBM's wired into a set of Polk Monitor 10's for awhile. Had the mains set as Plus (Pio '94 reciever) with dual HSU 3.3's. The bass was fantastic for my 6000 cu ft room. Now that I have Polk SDA SRS 2.3's, I now run the MBM's with the 3.3's and get better bass.

Bill

bori

04-01-09, 11:01 PM

Anyone looking for a auralex subdude for the MGM-12. Pm me I have one for sale.

teknikk7

08-04-09, 06:40 AM

Anyone got a MBM-12 M for sale?

monomer

08-04-09, 11:55 AM

Anyone got a MBM-12 M for sale?
Check your private messages, I've put something in there for you.

bsoko2

08-04-09, 04:58 PM

Anyone got a MBM-12 M for sale?

I have 2 of them that I would consider selling for 350 ea plus shipping.

Bill

lefthandluke

08-05-09, 07:47 AM

I have 2 of them that I would consider selling for 350 ea plus shipping.

Bill

you're getting rid of your mbm's...?

what's up??

bsoko2

08-05-09, 04:08 PM

you're getting rid of your mbm's...?

what's up??

I currently have dual A7S-450's and my mains are Polk SDA SRS 2.3's. For proper calibration in running the MBM's with the mains, they are calibrated the same as the mid bass in the SDA's. They add somewhat to the mid bass, but not enough to really justify the cost of the MBM's. I did try to run the MBM's with the 450's, but I didn't like the mix of bass that I got. I prefer the 450's SQ for movies over that of the MBM's mid bass. I was really going for output not SQ with movies and the 450's do deliver that. So, if someone really wants/needs a pair of MBM's at my price, then they are for sale.

Bill

Pete_Hsu

08-06-09, 12:01 AM

FYI, the MBM-12 MK2 will be available for purchase by early next week. :)

Standard finish is Satin Black, and luxury finishes are Real Wood Veneer Walnut/Rosenut/Espresso/Maple...

JimP

08-06-09, 07:04 AM

Pete,

How is it different from the original?

bsoko2

08-06-09, 01:34 PM

Pete,

How is it different from the original?

It is still ported or can be sealed with a port plug and comes with different finishes. The amp and driver are the same as the original. This is stated on the HSU forum as well as here on prior posts.

AvGeek07

08-06-09, 02:36 PM

What happens if you don't have room to place the mbm behind the couch? Will it work in another corner? Im thinking of buying the mbm. :)

Pete_Hsu

08-06-09, 03:44 PM

Pete,

How is it different from the original?

Jim, the MBM-12 MK2 has a new operating mode switch so that one can run it in either 'Sealed' or 'Ported' mode simply by adding or removing a supplied 4" foam port plug, and flipping the switch on the amp.

The advantage of the 'Sealed' mode is that the MBM rolloff will match the 24db/oct low-pass slope on our true subwoofers. So when the MBM is close or next to the true subwoofer, blending between the two should be improved. The advantage of the 'Ported' mode is that driver excursion demands are reduced, and there is a bit more output at some frequencies.

And as bsoko mentioned, the MBM-12 MK2 uses a nicer standard Satin Black finish (with "seamless" enclosure design), and will be available in several luxury finishes too (Real Wood Veneer Rosenut/Walnut/Espresso/Maple)...

Pete_Hsu

08-06-09, 07:11 PM

What happens if you don't have room to place the mbm behind the couch? Will it work in another corner? Im thinking of buying the mbm. :)

AvGeek, if you don't have space in the nearfield, then you can always place the MBM right next to the true subwoofer!

hdmi4ever

10-06-09, 03:41 PM

bsoko2

10-06-09, 05:34 PM

For my next speaker upgrade, I'm thinking of going with a pair of awesome bookshelves, sitting on top of a pair of MBM's at the front. Any of you have such an arrangement? Which bookshelf speakers? How do you like it?

Yes, I have done this in the past. Used the MBM for mid bass down to 50hz and then crossed the LFE at 50 hz for the true sub. This worked very well and was enjoyable. Needed more so when with what I have now.

Bill

goonstopher

10-06-09, 11:22 PM

What kind of EQ software is needed to spl match the mbm gain to mains if you use the mbm to extend the range on the mains?

Would a standard disk like an avia and an SPL meter be ok?

I have a small room with MASSIVE subs and am getting 2 jtr tripple 8's to run l/r with a phantom center. I was considering betting an MBM to run from about 60hz to 120hz. I would send all the signal from the fronts from 60 down to the big boys and everything from the sides from 80 down as well as all LFE content. i just want so close up punch.

Will an mbm even provide anything my 3 18" can't provide considering the jtr's need to be crossed at 100hz (pretty high)?

Schuyler Bain

12-06-09, 10:38 AM

Just added my MBM12 to my 3.3. a couple days ago. Sounds amazing!

The 3.3 is in front left corner and MBM directly behind me. Have the receiver XO at 80hz. The 3.3 XO at 50.

I also engaged the MBM XO at 80hz and it seems to reduce localization on the MBM. Is this recommended? Anyone else tried this?

Also looking to experiment with 3.3 XO at 45hz. Curious to see how this will affect localization on the MBM.

Schuyler Bain

12-06-09, 10:50 AM

Also wanted to recommend watching "The Mummy: Tomb of the Dragon Emperor" on BD.

The bass and mid-bass especially is awesome in this movie. I have been watching movies with lots of gunfire which is awesome with the MBM, but The Mummy really shows off the MBM's ability to produce serious IMPACT and SLAM!:eek::eek:

I found a small, loose piece of fiberglass insulation about 10 ft away from the MBM after watching this film. Yeah - maybe I had it too loud, but it was not distorting.

Anyone else have recommendations for movies with lots of mid-bass?

JimP

12-06-09, 11:09 AM

Schuyler,

Sounds like you're running double crossovers for the MBM lowering your effective start frequency on the MBM. That's why its less localizable, you've killed off some of the sound around 80hz.

bsoko2

12-06-09, 04:01 PM

I had dual 3.3's and dual MBM's in the past and this is the proper way to calibrate them (for those that didn't know): http://forum.hsuresearch.com/showpost.php?p=33939&postcount=33. I have since moved on to a Conquest with dual MFW-15's as my room is over 6000+ with 2 large openings to other parts of the house. I will say that the MBM's do add slam in the mid-bass area and a clip to try is "Open Range" the gunfight scene near the end of the movie.

Bill

TimA

12-24-09, 10:30 AM

I've read lots of posts detailing the setup and integration of the MBM-12 with various subs, but little information about the MBM-12 and Audyssey. Should I use the level setting procedure outlined on the HSU forum before or after using the Audyssey setup? I've read the Audyssey HOWTO on this forum.

I'm concerned that Audyssey will apply EQ settings that will mess up the manual level setting process. Without the MBM-12, my Audyssey setup currently has the speakers set to large. When I add the MBM-12, I plan on setting the AVR crossover for all the speakers to 80Hz and the sub crossover to 50Hz (LP) so the MBM-12 handles 50-80Hz.

My setup:

Onkyo TR-SX605
5 Klipsch Kg 2.5s
2 Klipsch Kg .5s
One Definitive Tech PF1500 (hope to replace with Hsu VTF-3)
One MBM-12 (on its way)

WhskyTangoFoxtrt

12-24-09, 11:07 AM

TimA

12-24-09, 12:48 PM

Great. Thanks.

Tim

bsoko2

12-24-09, 01:40 PM

Tim - go here for the correct way to setup a MBM and True sub:
http://forum.hsuresearch.com/showpost.php?p=33939&postcount=33

Bill

union1411

12-24-09, 06:42 PM

i've had the MBM12 for over a year now to go with my MFW15. my FR via REW is a really good house curve using the both of them. but the whole thing never felt right.

first there is the distance issue that is a nightmare to figure out with Audyssey - namely that the MBM12 is right behind my seats and the MFW15 is 7 feet away. so that created sound issues that i could never resolve - really evident when there's music with heavy bass because each bass drum kick wouldn't sound uniform. i have them calibrated correctly, just can't fix the distance issue.

the other thing though - and much more noticeable - is that while the bass became less boomy using the MBM12, it seemed to castrate the MFW15 in the area of chest slam, pant leg flapping, etc. when i run the MFW15 alone, there's more, what's the word, "oomph." i feel it more. it's not as clean as when using the MBM12 - i really need to buy a dedicated sub EQ if i go with just the MFW15 - but it just seems to hit harder and really pressurize the room in a way that doesn't happen when using the MBM12 for the midbass.

anyways, just a little rambling by me.

bsoko2

12-24-09, 08:09 PM

union1411

12-24-09, 09:35 PM

yup. calibration was easy. timing/delay is a pain in the butt. i should head to the audyssey thread to see how to fix it, though to be honest i'm liking the sound from just the mfw15 more.

i remember one time a friend came over to watch a movie and he said what i suspected (despite having a great FR curve):the bass sounds like it comes from the ground. with just the mfw15 the sound seems to fill the entire room (pressurizing the room, hitting the chest, etc). the mdm setup is tactile without room pressurization/chest slam.

that's why i said it was as if the MFW was castrated when running it with the MBM. when watching Terminator Salvation today without the MBM, i felt the bass above me, to the side of me, in my chest, in my teeth, etc. when i watched it with the mbm, i only felt the bass in my seat. it was good clean bass but just didn't have the slam. i'm going to run REW and see what the FR looks like for the MFW15 alone. could be some weird modes going on too.

Truls

05-06-10, 07:26 AM

Hi

I have some questions, and i hope they aren't to stupid.

I can start with posting the relevant components in my system.

Speakers: Monitor Audio GS20 (http://www.monitoraudio.co.uk/products/gold-gs/gs20/specification)
Subwoofer: 2x Elemental Designs A7s-650 (http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?t=2&products_id=891)
Reciver: Onkyo TX-NR1007(has a max of 120hz LPF to LFE)

I have alot of deep bass, but the system is lacking(IMO) the "in-your-face" bass, i was planing on buying some bigger speakers, but i realy love the GS20's and would prefer to keep them. So would i benefit from a pair of HSU MBM-12's?

And do the MBM's "speaker level" terminals offer some sort of High pass filter(incase i want to connect them so they get signal from the speaker cables)?
And is there a way to prevent the MBM's from playing as low as 50hz?, i realy think the A7s-650 can do up to 80hz better than the MBM(incase i prefer to connect the MBM to the sub out/daisy chain with A7s-650).
And Finaly, im thinking of buying some Clark TST429 buttkickers, would they deliver the "kick" im looking for or am i better of with a pair of MBM's?

And for placement options, only place i can have them is in front with the subs and speakers.

JimP

05-06-10, 07:47 AM

Truls,

How large is your room and how far are you from your front speakers? ....and how loud do you like to play your system????? Any hearing deficiencies???

Truls

05-06-10, 08:02 AM

WhskyTangoFoxtrt

05-06-10, 09:21 AM

...And do the MBM's "speaker level" terminals offer some sort of High pass filter(incase i want to connect them so they get signal from the speaker cables)?

I'm not sure I understand the question. If you are asking if the MBM-12 has High Level Inputs, then the answer is yes. There is no adjustable High Pass Filter as this unit is engineered with a built-in HPF at 50 Hz. The LPF has an adjustable response of 50-150 Hz.

And is there a way to prevent the MBM's from playing as low as 50hz?, i realy think the A7s-650 can do up to 80hz better than the MBM(incase i prefer to connect the MBM to the sub out/daisy chain with A7s-650).

You might consider an FMOD (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=266-252) crossover.

...And for placement options, only place i can have them is in front with the subs and speakers.

Hsu recommends placing it nearfield for the lowest distortion and maximum SPL impact. Although, placing the MBM-12 up front can help prevent localization.

Nice system -- thanks for providing those links.

Truls

05-06-10, 10:09 AM

JimP

05-06-10, 10:27 AM

The room is 11x13feet(143^2), im sitting aprox 9 feet from the speakers.

Normal listening volume is 80ish db's, some bass'y moviescenes reach 110+. but i do crank it up to 120ish from time to time.

And my hearing is fine:confused: (thinking of the Trancducer?) tho sometimes i think thers something wrong, i seem to go def around women :p

BTW, is the MBM capable of running on 220-230v?

The MBM runs off of the speaker wires so it runs on whatever it receives.

What are you doing with Audyssey? I see that your receiver has this feature.

....and going deaf around some women has more to do with selective listening than bad hearing. :D

WhskyTangoFoxtrt

05-06-10, 10:36 AM

I'm sorry if its hard to understand me, english isn't my native language so it's alittle hard to explain sometimes:P

The ting i was wondering was if the high level inputs offer some sort of filter to prevent frequency's above 100-150 to pass on trough to the speakers, some subwoofers filters the high level signal.

Those FMODS look realy awsome! Looks realy easy to use, but only 12db/octave rollof? I also see that HSU offers some signal crossovers.

If I remember correctly, you can add more than one FMOD to change the slope or even to create a bandpass filter.

Wel the question now is more if i'm gonna bennefit from a pair of MBM's, as i wil be sitting ~9feet from them, but they wil be placed right by each front speaker. How is the soundquality they offer, wil they blend inn with the rest of the system(soundwise)?

I have a pair of MBM-12s and I think they are really amazing product. I have them placed about 10 feet away. Hsu also says, near-field placement helps to cut down on reflections and gives you a more direct ratio of mid-bass sound. I had to compromise.

No need to apologize for your english.

Hope this helps.

Truls

05-06-10, 11:01 AM

The MBM runs off of the speaker wires so it runs on whatever it receives.

What are you doing with Audyssey? I see that your receiver has this feature.

....and going deaf around some women has more to do with selective listening than bad hearing. :D

Audyssey has done its thing on my system, properly set up by the guide on this forum. Did some minor adjustments on the crossovers and gain's after it was done.

From what you two are saying, this thing sounds like a "must have". So if it supports 220-230v I'm gonna buy a pair this summer =) And if they wont behave when they are placed with the front speakers, then maybe i can use them behind the chairs, tho i realy don't want any wires across the floor.

What is it with the addiction i got to bass after i got the A7s-650's, this is hillarious:D And i guess MBM's won't make that addiction any easyer to live with:p

JimP

05-06-10, 11:56 AM

Truls,

At what frequency do you have your front mains and center channel crossovered?

....and which model center channel speaker are you using?

Truls

05-06-10, 12:11 PM

Truls,

At what frequency do you have your front mains and center channel crossovered?

....and which model center channel speaker are you using?

Weeel, how should i put this, the rest of the speakers are Klipsch :S I know its a tabu, but they are easyer to mount to the wall's(i had them from when i gave a damn about WAF).

The crossover is as follows.
Mains : 40hz
Sub LPF: 100hz
center: 50hz
Surrounds: 60hz

I'll post a graph from REW.
http://avforum.no/forum/attachments/hvilket-utstyr-har-avforums-medlemmer/60990d1264849231-truls-sin-kino-oppdatert-forste-post-hvordan-oke-lfe-bare-under-film-59427d1261686698-truls-sin-kino-tester-dsx-funker-bra-mohaaaa.jpg

Maybe you can see from the graph why im considdering a MBM-12 or two. Thats the sub's+mains on that graph.

JimP

05-06-10, 12:39 PM

That 90hz dip is a problem. If you can correct that, then your mid bass should improve.

To narrow down if its a room problem or not, you'll need to do a near field measurement with REW. I'm presuming that your front right or left is next to a sub. Place your measurement mic somewhere around 2 feet in front of it (of course adjust volume) and remeasure. If the dip is still there, then you know there is something wired wrong and its not the room.

Just a thought, on your subwoofer(s) the internal crossover should be either bypassed or set at its highest setting.

Also, I'd probably change your front speakers and center channel to 60hz crossover. It may be that you're draining your speakers trying to handle lower frequencies at the expense of mid bass.

Truls

05-06-10, 02:09 PM

I don't need to messiure the speker with REW, but il do it after this post anyway, the room is 3.4meters(11.x feet) across, so it should make a standing wave of some sort at 93Hz. Guess thats what we see in the graph.

The internal crossover in the subs are at max and the phase is at 0, running on audyssey settings.

Gonna do a REW now and try out the 60HZ setting you recomended.

Edit: And yes, each sub is positioned by each front speaker

Edit2: The REW messiurments.

Right speaker and sub:
174847

Left speaker and sub:
174848

Edit3: The dip is stil there if i set the mains to 60HZ, and there is no(to me) audioable difference to 40Hz, but then it takes like 10 secs to scroll trough the menus to change the setting, and thers no music then. I can clearly see that the GS20's are working alot less @ 60Hz, so maybe il just let them stay there. Did a sweap with REW to back up that ther isn't any difference from 40 to 60, and the graf was identical(guess im in phase then:)).

dimetera413

05-06-10, 04:31 PM

WhskyTangoFoxtrt

05-06-10, 04:34 PM

Truls

05-06-10, 04:35 PM

So let me get this straight. I have a SVS PB12-NSD and if I were to get a MBM-12, how would the settings go. I have SVS SCS-01 fronts and rears that handle down to 60hz. SVS recommends setting the crossover on the reciever as 80hz(and they were right) and then disabling the xover switch on the PB12. Now would I have to just connect the MBM to my second sub output on my yamaha 663 (7.2) and then play with the levels on the MBM? Or would I have to mess with the reciever xover settings? or both?

Maybe the other guys should answer this, but IMO I would connect the MBM to the other sub out, set the crossover in the reciver as high as possible for the subs, sett the crossover on the PB12 to 45-50ish. Then do a normal level and phase calibration on the setup. But this is just my opinnion, i realy can't say as i don't own a unit myself.

dimetera413

05-06-10, 05:12 PM

okay, thanks for the advice guys.

Pete_Hsu

05-06-10, 07:25 PM

Hi Truls,

Hi

I have some questions, and i hope they aren't to stupid.

I can start with posting the relevant components in my system.

Speakers: Monitor Audio GS20 (http://www.monitoraudio.co.uk/products/gold-gs/gs20/specification)
Subwoofer: 2x Elemental Designs A7s-650 (http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?t=2&products_id=891)
Reciver: Onkyo TX-NR1007(has a max of 120hz LPF to LFE)

I have alot of deep bass, but the system is lacking(IMO) the "in-your-face" bass, i was planing on buying some bigger speakers, but i realy love the GS20's and would prefer to keep them. So would i benefit from a pair of HSU MBM-12's?

And do the MBM's "speaker level" terminals offer some sort of High pass filter(incase i want to connect them so they get signal from the speaker cables)?
And is there a way to prevent the MBM's from playing as low as 50hz?, i realy think the A7s-650 can do up to 80hz better than the MBM(incase i prefer to connect the MBM to the sub out/daisy chain with A7s-650).
And Finaly, im thinking of buying some Clark TST429 buttkickers, would they deliver the "kick" im looking for or am i better of with a pair of MBM's?

And for placement options, only place i can have them is in front with the subs and speakers.

The crossover on the MBM amplifier is low-pass only. The MBM rolls off naturally at 50Hz (combination of electronic + acoustic rolloff). Note that if one uses the high level inputs on the MBM, intended for those with older 2-channel systems with no bass management, it would basically be used as mid/upper bass augmentation for the main speakers, and then the internal low-pass crossover on the MBM would filter out higher frequencies going to the MBM. Since you have a modern-day receiver, you simply need to feed one low level input on each MBM. When using the MBM(s), I recommend that you raise the crossover frequency on your receiver for your mains/center/surrounds to no lower than 80Hz.

I don't think there are many true subs that can handle 50-150Hz region better than two MBM's. The two MBM's have very high headroom and also give you added flexibility in terms of getting a smooth mid-bass response since they are separate modules.

It is certainly acceptable to place the MBM's next to left/right main speakers. Even better would be on the left and right hand side of the main listening position, but if that is not possible nor practical, then up front is fine.

Sincerely,

Pete_Hsu

05-06-10, 07:58 PM

Hi dimetera,

So let me get this straight. I have a SVS PB12-NSD and if I were to get a MBM-12, how would the settings go. I have SVS SCS-01 fronts and rears that handle down to 60hz. SVS recommends setting the crossover on the reciever as 80hz(and they were right) and then disabling the xover switch on the PB12. Now would I have to just connect the MBM to my second sub output on my yamaha 663 (7.2) and then play with the levels on the MBM? Or would I have to mess with the reciever xover settings? or both?

Set the crossover frequency on your receiver to 80Hz for all channels. On the MBM, set the crossover switch to 'Out' (which bypasses the internal crossover on the MBM). On your true subwoofer, engage the internal crossover and set the crossover knob to ~ 50Hz.

You can connect the MBM to one sub pre-out on the receiver, and the true sub to the second sub pre-out on the receiver. Presumably each sub pre-out sends the exact same output signal, so both the MBM and the true sub will receive the same signal (the MBM will naturally roll off the lower frequencies sent to it, while the true sub crossover will roll off the higher frequencies sent to it).

On the receiver, set the subwoofer distance equal to the distance between the listening position and the MBM. Adjust the MBM volume knob so that the MBM level is in balance with the true subwoofer, and then adjust the subwoofer channel level on the receiver so that the combined MBM/true sub level is in balance with the mains.

Sincerely,

cyberbri

05-08-10, 02:31 PM

Weeel, how should i put this, the rest of the speakers are Klipsch :S I know its a tabu, but they are easyer to mount to the wall's(i had them from when i gave a damn about WAF).

The crossover is as follows.
Mains : 40hz
Sub LPF: 100hz
center: 50hz
Surrounds: 60hz

I'll post a graph from REW.
http://avforum.no/forum/attachments/hvilket-utstyr-har-avforums-medlemmer/60990d1264849231-truls-sin-kino-oppdatert-forste-post-hvordan-oke-lfe-bare-under-film-59427d1261686698-truls-sin-kino-tester-dsx-funker-bra-mohaaaa.jpg

Maybe you can see from the graph why im considdering a MBM-12 or two. Thats the sub's+mains on that graph.

While everyone's telling you how to set up MBMs (including linking to my setup/calibration guide ;) ), do you even need them?

I say no, you don't. Not with that setup. Set the crossover for your mains and center at 80Hz (you can experiment) not 40Hz, so your crazy subs are playing all that bass. The subs can hit 60Hz a lot harder than the speakers. It will also save distortion and headroom on the speakers so they can play cleaner and louder.

You can experiment with the phase setting on the subs and sub distance setting in your receiver to bring down the hump around 100-150Hz. There's no reason those subs shouldn't be kicking your arse with bass - except if you don't have them playing bass which is what you have now with that 40Hz crossover.

Truls

05-08-10, 02:55 PM

While everyone's telling you how to set up MBMs (including linking to my setup/calibration guide ;) ), do you even need them?

I say no, you don't. Not with that setup. Set the crossover for your mains and center at 80Hz (you can experiment) not 40Hz, so your crazy subs are playing all that bass. The subs can hit 60Hz a lot harder than the speakers. It will also save distortion and headroom on the speakers so they can play cleaner and louder.

You can experiment with the phase setting on the subs and sub distance setting in your receiver to bring down the hump around 100-150Hz. There's no reason those subs shouldn't be kicking your arse with bass - except if you don't have them playing bass which is what you have now with that 40Hz crossover.

If it werent for the fact that my subs are playing from 100Hz and lower, and my Mains are playing from 40-60Hz and upward your argument would be true, they are all in perfect(or atleast so much as i can adust them) in phase.

The ting im missing in my system is the "in tha chest" bass, the tactile frequencys are so pronound that they shake my ordinary recliner chair more than my frinds masage chairs when i crank them.The reason i was thinking of some MBM-12's is that i feel that the Monitor Audio GS20's fal short when it comes to performance on the midbass erea. Not to say that the GS20's sound awful, they realy are great speakers, but for movies it seems like they lack some punch. I realy don't want to change the main speakers, as i feel thet the GS20's are almost unbeatable when it comes to musicality for the price. And again, im sorry for missprints, english isn't my native language and im drunk ATM.

cyberbri

05-08-10, 03:03 PM

You could try experimenting with the sub distance setting in your receiver, as I mentioned, and get that hump at 100-150Hz down.

Here is a graph of my sub and mains playing together, with the only difference between the measurements being a different sub distance setting in the receiver.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4070/4305544755_331b114c1f_o.jpg

Try that out, and turn your sub level up a few more dB (how do you have it calibrated now? even? 2-3dB hot (so "even" on the SPL meter)?. That mid-bass you're looking for is in that 60-90Hz range that is the lowest part of your graph

Truls

05-08-10, 03:11 PM

Thanks for the reply again, its dificult to messiure the exact distance since the sub's have a amplifier that adds some delay on the signal. I have tried to change it, but always find that the settings Audyssey MultEQ TX find is the best for my system, the straightest graphs after a REW run. OFC i adjust the crossovers and boost the subs aprox 3-4 db's. Audyssey somewhat adjustthe subs alittle low acording to the Radioshack(i have the correctiontable in mind when i say this).

cyberbri

05-08-10, 07:37 PM

What I'm saying is, the hump on your graph from 100-150Hz looks like the dark blue line on my graph. If you manually change the distance in the receiver and re-run the sweep, you may find that you can bring that hump down. That hump makes the other bass frequencies sound less powerful in comparison. To take all of those measurements in the graph above, I just changed the distance setting between 3'6" and 8' at 1~2 foot intervals.

My sub is right behind my couch, and I think with the phase setting at 180 on the sub, 3'6" or so worked best. With phase set to 0 on the sub, a 6 foot setting gave me the smoothest response.

If it werent for the fact that my subs are playing from 100Hz and lower, and my Mains are playing from 40-60Hz and upward your argument would be true

Also, I think you might not understand what the crossover settings in the receiver are doing.

Unless you have changed your settings since you posted it, this is what you have:
Mains : 40hz
Sub LPF: 100hz
center: 50hz
Surrounds: 60hz

Basically, the sub plays A) the .1 LFE signal, which can go up to 120Hz, and B) re-routed bass from the other channels. You could have bass down to <20Hz play through the front three speakers and the LFE in an explosion, and you want all of that massive bass energy to be played by the most capable components, the sub(s).

I suggest you up your LPF for the sub to 120Hz.

And wherever the crossover for the other speakers is set to, it sends bass below that to the sub (at a slope to mix the output of the sub and the speakers). So if there is an explosion, and bass goes to the LFE channel, plus left + center + right, the sub is playing the LFE channel and the speakers are reproducing most of the bass because they are crossed at 40~50Hz. The sub should be playing that mid-bass, and it's not if you really have those xo settings right now.

If you still have the crossovers set to 40~60Hz, I suggest you up these to 80Hz and see how that sounds. No matter how flat your graph is at 80dB, your subs will play the 40-80Hz content from the speaker channels with much more authority and power than your speakers ever could, especially with peaks at 90-110dB. I think this is what you're missing. Your massive subs will play 40-80Hz with much more authority than the mains. That should bring back that chest thump you are missing.

Just change the crossover for all of your speakers to 80Hz in the receiver and see if that gives you what you're missing.

Even if you got 1 or 2 MBMs, if you were to run them off of the subwoofer output on the receiver, you'd have the same exact problem. I think your subwoofers are currently only playing LFE + sub-40Hz bass from the mains. The MBMs play 50Hz up to about 120Hz~150Hz. If you don't change your speaker crossover settings, even with MBMs your speakers would be playing all of that mid-bass in the 40-100Hz range (except for the LFE channel), and you would have the same exact problem.

One more thing to check... Do you have any crossovers on your subwoofers engaged? Any Low Pass Filters? If you do have any crossovers engaged on your subs, you are filtering out a lot of bass and a lot of SPL. Turn them off.

As an example, here is my subwoofer without the mains. But it's running through the left+right channels so the receiver's 70Hz crossover slope for the subwoofer is tapering off the bass above 70Hz. The red line is what it's supposed to be. The blue line is what happens to that bass when I turn on the sub's internal crossover at the max 90Hz setting. You can see how much bass energy it cuts out from the re-routed bass (basically double-filtering the bass), not to mention what that does to the bass in the LFE channel that can go up to 120Hz. Everything between the two lines would be the missing bass volume.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4033/4396307582_a9349dd8d6_o.jpg

Lesson: Turn off or bypass any crossovers in your subwoofers.

Kimwyn

10-06-10, 09:20 PM

i have actually decided to get 2 of these and skip buying an additional ULS. I cant wait to be a part of this club and get the "punch" i am looking for.

Kimwyn

10-07-10, 08:44 AM

has anyone with a Pioneer Elite receiver ever run 2 MBMs with their mains and a true subwoofer connected??? How would that be done????

Shnapper

10-07-10, 01:34 PM

I read on a page back HSU explaining how to set up the MBM.. However that set up appears to be manual not using Audyssey.. So how would one go about setting up 2 ULS15's and 1 MBM using Audyssey?

Pete_Hsu

10-07-10, 01:54 PM

has anyone with a Pioneer Elite receiver ever run 2 MBMs with their mains and a true subwoofer connected??? How would that be done????

If your receiver has a single sub pre-out, then simply split the signal from the sub pre-out to feed any number of MBM's and/or true subwoofers. So you will need two y-splitters. You just need to feed one low level (rca) input on each MBM and each ULS.

Sincerely,

Pete_Hsu

10-07-10, 01:57 PM

I read on a page back HSU explaining how to set up the MBM.. However that set up appears to be manual not using Audyssey.. So how would one go about setting up 2 ULS15's and 1 MBM using Audyssey?

One can still use Audyssey when using MBM + true subwoofer(s). Audyssey will attempt to smooth out the mid-bass response (from the MBM) and the deep bass response (from the true subwoofers).

Sincerely,

Shnapper

10-07-10, 02:20 PM

One can still use Audyssey when using MBM + true subwoofer(s). Audyssey will attempt to smooth out the mid-bass response (from the MBM) and the deep bass response (from the true subwoofers).

Sincerely,

Ok so what am I doing as far as hook up? Split the ULS's off SW 1 output and the MBM out of SW 2 output on receiver?

JackOften

10-07-10, 02:37 PM

i have actually decided to get 2 of these and skip buying an additional ULS. I cant wait to be a part of this club and get the "punch" i am looking for.

What's your room config look like? I actually like that idea... seems like that real home theater pop is in the mid-to-high bass range. There may be method to this madness.

Pete_Hsu

10-07-10, 02:54 PM

Ok so what am I doing as far as hook up? Split the ULS's off SW 1 output and the MBM out of SW 2 output on receiver?

Yes, that's right.

bsoko2

10-07-10, 05:04 PM

I had run dual 3.3's with dual MBM's in a 6000+ cu ft room from one sub output on the reciever. Sweet SQ!

Kimwyn

10-07-10, 05:36 PM

If your receiver has a single sub pre-out, then simply split the signal from the sub pre-out to feed any number of MBM's and/or true subwoofers. So you will need two y-splitters. You just need to feed one low level (rca) input on each MBM and each ULS.

Sincerely,

Pete, with all due respect and my very limited knowledge of audio theory, I think it would be a bit different to what you are suggesting. Because if i use a y splitter and set the crossover in the AVR to (let's say) 80Hz, both the MBMs and the ULS will be crossing over at 80HZ which is defeating "my" purpose.

I heard bsoko2 mention how he had (correct me if i am wrong bsoko2) his dual MBMs connected to his mains crossed over at 150Hz and then his sub(s) crossed over at 45Hz which is exactly what I am trying to get.

So could anyone please explain to me how that could be done.

Thanks

Pete_Hsu

10-07-10, 05:42 PM

Hi Kimwyn,

The crossover switch on the true subwoofer(s) should be set to 'In', and crossover knob set ~ 50Hz. Even though the MBM's and the ULS's are getting the same signal output from the receiver, the internal crossover on the ULS amplifier will filter out higher frequencies going to that woofer. The crossover switch on the MBM's should be set to 'Out'. The MBM's naturally roll off below 50Hz (combination of acoustic + electrical rolloff), so no need to do anything special to filter out deeper bass going to the MBM's.

Sincerely,

Kimwyn

10-07-10, 05:56 PM

Thanks Pete, i think that is what is was looking for (thinking to myself) but i am not as versed as you guys in the audio department. Thanks again.

So then that means i set the crossover in the receiver to 150Hz, correct?

Pete_Hsu

10-07-10, 07:47 PM

Yes, in the location where you plan to put the MBM's (ie. flanking the left/right mains), you should get good results when setting crossover to 150Hz on the receiver...

Kimwyn

10-18-10, 12:41 PM

Can someone in here post a pic of the back of their MBM mid bass module please? it would be much appreciated.

Mondo Gentleman

10-18-10, 08:36 PM

I'm about to list my MBM on Audiogon.

WhskyTangoFoxtrt

10-22-10, 01:28 PM

Here is a JPEG of the back of the original MBM-12. This was included as a Quick Set-up Guide.

I cannot find any photos of the MBM-12 MK2.

Kimwyn

10-22-10, 04:23 PM

Thanks WTF. appreciate it.

Jrunr

11-19-10, 09:37 PM

Does it matter which way the sub is facing? Does the port have to face the listening position?

monomer

12-23-10, 12:13 PM

Since my query is specifically about the Mk2 MBM, I thought I'd post my questions here first before maybe opening it up to a wider audience by starting a new thread in either the DYI or the audio theory forums.
The new MBM12 is designed to be used as either ported or sealed with the amp tuning (via switch) used to compensate for the port/sealed configuration change, all the while the driver characteristics and the enclosure size remains exactly the same. I think that is an amazing feat. I have an older model MBM which has the amp modified for sealed use only but just yesterday I purchased a (used) Mk2... so I got to thinking about damping materials. When I first got my the sealed (Mk1?) MBM I had an amp issue (it was dead) and had to replace it, when I looked inside I saw very little damping material. IIRC it consisted of a few smaller (than the sub's inner dimensions) cut sheets of damping material attached to the open surfaces... I believe the purpose of these were to dampen enclosure resonances since there is no mid-wall internal bracing in there... but then it may have also been meant to damp internal standing waves or mid-bass reflections but I didn't look closely enough to determine the construction of the damping material? I guess I need to go back in there to see if its a laminate and if so, what's in the layers. Anyway, last night I got to searching on the Internet for articles, discussions, marketing jibber-jabber, etc, anything on damping materials for subs I could find that would enlighten me on the subject and I came across a lot of info that leads me to believe ported and sealed enclosures have different requirements in how they are damped that will also affect enclosure tuning. So I'm wondering how does this work within the MBM12 being as how it has this dual use capability. A while back I actually physically blocked the port on the 'sealed only' MBM with an MDF block since it will never and can never be used in the ported configuration (evidently the amp will blow out the driver with the port open) and I put a some polyfil in there while I was at it and I believe the sound was actually improved. However I'm wondering if more damping material or different damping material would improve the sound further or simply change it (or the tuning) to something less desirable. (BTW, the other MBM, once I get it, will also only see sealed-duty in my system however I won't permanently block the port since I might sell it someday to someone who'll want to use it in the ported configuration.) PS... I'm hoping Pete will chime in here with some enlightenment for me.

EDIT: 12/29 - Okay, I got the 'new' MBM in last night and trying to integrate it with the other drove me just nutz. I could set each one up easily enough and got decent in-room frequency response (using REW and RS meter) in their locations (just 2-feet apart) but when I tried both together that would suddenly create several seriously deep nulls... it was just crazy. The more I played with it the more frustrated I got. At one point I opened the first MBM and removed the polyfil I'd stuck in there way back when and it was at this point I made note of what it looked like... and all the refelective surfaces are FULLY lined with ~1.5" rigid fiberglass glued down. Finally after more than an hour of futzing around with these subs I decided to just take simple SPL readings of each MBM (using the AVR's pink noise)... I had their gains set so I got 75dBs on each sub separately but when I ran both together it the meter actually DROP to 70-71dB?!!! On a hunch, I flipped the phasing to 180 on one of the MBMs and TADA! everything fell right into place... the MBM's summed up properly, the bizarre nulls disappeared. So evidently one of these MBMs is wired in reverse because they are spaced only two feet apart to begin with and yet they must be in opposite phasings to combine properly? Anyway they now sound awesome and just I might put some polyfil into both of them later but for now I'm very happy.

mrcoop

01-01-11, 10:14 AM

i had the same issue...when I had them at seperate phases...all was great.

Anthony A.

01-14-11, 12:05 PM

if anyone has a mk2 version of the mbm please pm me as im looking to buy one or two. thanks!

ResIpsa

01-24-11, 10:48 AM

Little help guys, please. I'm more of an end user than science guy:D

I'm looking at replacing my mains and am considering going with bookshelfs. I'm already running dual subs for HT purposes, (Outlaw EX's) and it just seems foolish to buy floorstanders when everything below 80hz I'm sending to the subs anyway.

So. Question 1) 1 MBM, or 2. Room is 18 by 24 by 8

2) My receiver has only one sub out, which I currently split with a y adapter to both subs. I assume I would just split it again to send to the MBM's as well?

3) As far as setup is concerned, I assume I allow Audussey to do it's thing with both subs and both MBM's on, then one by one level match them with my RS meter?

4) I've read Pete's earlier posts about where to set the crossovers, I assume I set ALL of the speakers to cross to the MBM's at 150, not just the L/R?

5) In my current setup the subs are nearfield, and the MBM's would have to be placed farfield, basically flanking the L/R speakers. No other real option for me. I know the MBM's are meant to be placed nearfield, does this mean the MBM's are not a good solution for me?

6) These are the options I"m considering: Mirage OMD-28's as floorstanders, http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/features/542999895/mirage-omd-28-rosewood, Mirage OMD-15's as floorstanders, http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/features/542999362/mirage-omd15-rosewood, or Mirage OMD-5's paired with the MBM's. http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/details/544375712/mirage-omd5-rosewood

Would the OMD-5/MBM combination outperform the OMD-15's in the midbass area? Pricewise, the two are about the same. What about the OMD-28's which would set me back considerably more.

Last thing, I'm primarily concerned with HT. Listening is probably 75% HT, 25% music.

Lots of questions I know, but anyone that can help a non science person out, thanks!!

WhskyTangoFoxtrt

01-24-11, 03:26 PM

...

So. Question 1) 1 MBM, or 2. Room is 18 by 24 by 8

This will be determined by your intended goals, e.g., reference vs. preference, even bass-response across multiple listening positions, etc. One MBM-12 can be nice and make an impact in almost any set-up. Two would be better but can also introduce more challenges and variables to properly integrate into your system.

2) My receiver has only one sub out, which I currently split with a y adapter to both subs. I assume I would just split it again to send to the MBM's as well?

Yes -- that is one option.

3) As far as setup is concerned, I assume I allow Audussey to do it's thing with both subs and both MBM's on, then one by one level match them with my RS meter?

Other way around -- in most cases. You might choose to either level-match or gain-match the True-sub/MBM combo and then run the Audyssey calibration. Keep in mind, that there are several levels of the Audyssey software and that the 2EQ version does not apply a filter to the subwoofers.

Audyssey Guide (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14456895#post14456895)

MBM-12 Guide (http://forum.hsuresearch.com/showpost.php?p=33939&postcount=33)

4) I've read Pete's earlier posts about where to set the crossovers, I assume I set ALL of the speakers to cross to the MBM's at 150, not just the L/R?

Probably, a good starting point. There are so many variables here that it is impossible say without experimentation.

5) In my current setup the subs are nearfield, and the MBM's would have to be placed farfield, basically flanking the L/R speakers. No other real option for me. I know the MBM's are meant to be placed nearfield, does this mean the MBM's are not a good solution for me?

Not necessarily. You might consider stacking the MBMs on top of the subwoofers as one option. Again, there are too many variables at play here and I suggest calling HSU for advice.

6) These are the options I"m considering: Mirage OMD-28's as floorstanders, http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/features/542999895/mirage-omd-28-rosewood, Mirage OMD-15's as floorstanders, http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/features/542999362/mirage-omd15-rosewood, or Mirage OMD-5's paired with the MBM's. http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/details/544375712/mirage-omd5-rosewood

Would the OMD-5/MBM combination outperform the OMD-15's in the midbass area? Pricewise, the two are about the same. What about the OMD-28's which would set me back considerably more.

I think you would have to define "outperform".

I have the OMD-15s as well as two MBM-12s and have heard the OMD-28s. Without question, a dedicated 12" woofer or two with its own amplification can give you higher SPLs with less distortion in the mid-bass. The nature of the Omnipolar design of the OMDs requires the speakers to be moved out into the room a little more than conventional direct-radiating speakers where you might not be able to take advantage of room gain in the bass frequencies.

Last thing, I'm primarily concerned with HT. Listening is probably 75% HT, 25% music.

Lots of questions I know, but anyone that can help a non science person out, thanks!!

In my opinion, the MBM-12 can be a very challenging, but rewarding piece of equipment. It will require, in most cases, patience and effort to properly integrate into your room and your system.

Hope this helps.

ResIpsa

01-24-11, 04:05 PM

In my opinion, the MBM-12 can be a very challenging, but rewarding piece of equipment. It will require, in most cases, patience and effort to properly integrate into your room and your system.

Hope this helps.It does, thank you I realize theOmd-28s were probably in a different environment under different conditions, but what was your impression of tem in comparison to your setup of the 15's with the mbm's, if any? I am considering that setup as well but it brings me closer to the price of the 28's themselves

WhskyTangoFoxtrt

01-25-11, 09:18 AM

It does, thank you I realize theOmd-28s were probably in a different environment under different conditions, but what was your impression of tem in comparison to your setup of the 15's with the mbm's, if any? I am considering that setup as well but it brings me closer to the price of the 28's themselves

Totally different environment and difficult to really compare. The 28s I listened to were part of a dedicated 2.0 system. My impression was that the OMD-28s had good bass extension and LF output. Although, I'm pretty sure they would not have as much mid-bass slam or extension as a properly integrated OMD-15, MBM-12, true subwoofer set-up.

FWIW.

stewdawg

02-01-11, 03:07 AM

WhskyTangoFoxtrt

02-01-11, 08:47 AM

Gentlemen i have a Integra 7.2 rec, what is the best way to hook up 2 MBM's and 1 true sub? I would assume to use 1 of the rec. sub outs with a y splitter for the MBM's and just straight out for the true sub, am i correct?..please help.

That connection will work.

Jrunr

02-01-11, 10:22 AM

Hey guys, I am down-sizing a bit and have two MBM-12's for sale. If anyone is interested, please PM me.

skypop

02-01-11, 10:32 AM

Hey guys, I am down-sizing a bit and have two MBM-12's for sale. If anyone is interested, please PM me.

I sent you a PM

moehop

02-01-11, 12:38 PM

you have pm

monomer

02-01-11, 12:55 PM

Hey guys, I am down-sizing a bit and have two MBM-12's for sale. If anyone is interested, please PM me.Ported, sealed, or Mk2... Which version?

RobZ

02-26-11, 09:12 AM

Anyone have advice on calibrating the MBM with a receiver (Onkyo 3008) that has dual sub outputs and Audyssey MultEQ XT32? I have a PB13 Ultra as the true sub and the MBM nearfield.

ndskurfer

02-26-11, 12:33 PM

I'm posting in the MBM-12 forum as I believe this is the right audience for what I'm trying to address. I'm looking for any comments on my room situation. Room pic below:

SVS PC13U in back corner
http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww42/ndskurfer/IMG_3125.jpg

Seating area
http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww42/ndskurfer/IMG_3126.jpg

My issue:
I currently do not have the "punch" from the SVS, but I do have great deep bass. Using REW, my frequency response is very good, almost flat. But, I do not have the punch from gun shots, etc.

Solutions I have been thinking of:
* Placing dual MBM-12's on either side of the couch
- Placement 1: back wall next to couch about 4 feet from Ultra (this is where I sit)
- Placement 2: side wall at end of couch
- I would split the frequency at 50hz with the Ultra on the first sub (will eventually have an Audyssey XT32 Pre/Pro to EQ the Ultra/MBM & the second MBM indepentantly)
* Add Dual Epik Empires (same placement as the proposed MBM's)
* Single Epik Empire (placement 2)
* Room treatment - I'm not excited about adding panels to the walls/ceiling... Front wall is an option, but back and side walls fail WAF
* I will be replacing current Onkyo receiver (NR807) with an Audyssey XT32 pre/pro (not sure how much improvement this will provide?)

The reason on why I have been looking at the Epik Empire and MBM is because of the reviews I have read on their "punch". Would the Epik's best the MBM's for this purpose (still retaining the SVS)? I'm fine in the low low end. I would prefer not to add 2 Epiks as that is more than I want to spend right now. Would 2 MBM's = 1 Empire (please consider the Empire would be in Placement 2, not nearfield to my seat)? I'm thinking nearfield placement would help with room mode issues while adding impact?

What I have tried:
* Moving the sub - The current location is best (I didn't try along side walls - side wall along couch blocks tv view because of the height of the PC13 & and other side wall fails WAF)
* Moving couch forward and placing behind couch - not much improvement
* EQ - Currently have Onkyo NR807 with Audyssey (REW confirmed flat results)
* SVS's built-in sub EQ (prior to owning the Onkyo)
* Second sub - It isn't another Ultra, rather an Outlaw LFM-1 borrowed from my brother. I have it currently situated in "Placement 2" (gain matched with the Ultra) - not much improvement

Thoughts?

skypop

02-26-11, 01:00 PM

ndskurfer

02-26-11, 01:23 PM

I would say to add 1 MBM. If you can pull the couch off the wall just enough to place the MBM behind it, centered of your couch, if you like the sound and want a little more punch than get a second MBM and try both of them behind the couch and also one one each side of the couch. The other subs you mentioned don't have high pass filtering I don't think so it's not the same as adding a MBM

Thanks for your quick response -

I would have to get creative with the high pass filtering if I were to cut the frequencies on the Empires. I was thinking full range sub on those since they are capable, plus have the benefit of the punch.

Unfortunately, I can't pull the couch out. While it would open up placement options, The needs to be to the back wall as it really does impose on the rest of the room (comfort).

The con of 1 MBM, it would be close to the Ultra if I wanted nearfield, which would increase localization.

skypop

02-26-11, 02:30 PM

It's all about the Setup, mine is sitting Right Against the back of my couch with the Port facing Sideways. No Localization for me.

bsoko2

02-26-11, 04:35 PM

lefthandluke

03-05-11, 10:34 PM

i'm currently experimenting running dual mbm's, one original version (ported) and one mk2 (sealed). while i have to admit they sound great, i'm wondering if there would be any sonic improvement to be had by running dual mk2's.

anyone had experience with both setups?

Kimwyn

03-06-11, 07:39 AM

I was here thinking and I have come up with a question which I know has probably been asked but I can't find the answer.

Is it possible, if running dual MBMs to connect the MBMs straight to the left and right main speakers instead of running them through the receiver's crossover and just let the true subwoofers be the only ones to implement the bass management from the receiver?

bsoko2

03-06-11, 03:09 PM

Kimwyn

03-06-11, 03:27 PM

So you are saying that I don't have to run the MBMs through the receiver right? I think another member was saying that the MBM does not have speaker line levels.

monomer

03-06-11, 06:13 PM

I think another member was saying that the MBM does not have speaker line levels.Well then he was wrong. I have both versions (original and Mk2) of MBM's and they both indeed do have high level inputs with speaker outs. I don't use 'em but they've got 'em.

Kimwyn

03-07-11, 10:10 AM

cacihome

03-07-11, 10:14 AM

^The subsonic filter on the MBM will always rolloff freqs from about 50hz down...

Kimwyn

03-07-11, 10:39 AM

thats not what i was asking but thanks for the reply. I will be using the crossover in the AVR to then send the frequencies below 50Hz to the ULS dual drive.

I jus want to know how does the system know what do to (i.e send it to the speaker or the MBM) when it sends out signals to the speaker and the MBM? how does it differentiate between what the MBM will play and what the speaker will play? do i have to bridge it or anything special or do i just hook the MBM to the speaker via speaker levels and it just does its thing.

Because if so, why dont person just hook their subwoofers up to their speakers and run them full range?

cacihome

03-07-11, 11:53 AM

You control the MBM upper range with your AVR or pre-pro. Then you turn ON the main subwoofer internal xover, and you set the internal x-over dial to about 45-47hz...

ralfale

03-07-11, 06:25 PM

^The subsonic filter on the MBM will always rolloff freqs from about 50hz down...

Am I right to say there is already some predefined xover in mbm itself. Even if we set the knob at the amp plate to be OUT.

So my question is which is better? Set to OUT let it auto roll off at 50hz or set to IN and set knob to roll at 50hz?

WhskyTangoFoxtrt

03-07-11, 07:26 PM

Am I right to say there is already some predefined xover in mbm itself. Even if we set the knob at the amp plate to be OUT.

So my question is which is better? Set to OUT let it auto roll off at 50hz or set to IN and set knob to roll at 50hz?

The MBM-12 rolls off naturally at 50 Hz. Its frequency response is 50 - 150 Hz +/- 2 dB with a low pass crossover that can be adjusted to 150 Hz.

cacihome

03-08-11, 06:06 PM

^Exactly. It has always a ~50hz xover to filter out the deeper bass.

otk

03-08-11, 10:22 PM

I will be using the crossover in the AVR to then send the frequencies below 50Hz to the ULS dual drive.

you wont be getting much out of your MBM if you do that

Kimwyn

03-09-11, 08:56 AM

^^^why is that? would the MBMs not be getting everything above 50Hz up until approx 150Hz?

vitod

03-09-11, 09:50 AM

^^^why is that? would the MBMs not be getting everything above 50Hz up until approx 150Hz?

If you set the Xover on the receiver to 50hz, the receiver will only send 50hz to the subs. Meaning, the subs will handle anything from 50hz and lower. Since the Xover on the MBM is set at 50hz at it's lowest, the MBM is pretty much useless because the receiver is not sending anything over 50hz for it to work with. Now, if you set the receiver to 80hz, THEN the MBM has something to play with from 80hz-50hz.

WhskyTangoFoxtrt

03-09-11, 10:18 AM

i guess this question is for Bill, as he has done what i would like to do already. If the MBMs are connected directly to the speakers via speaker wire, do both the MBM and the speaker act as ONE TOTAL speaker? By this i mean, would the bass that was going to the speaker initially, now go to the MBM and they all blend as one?

What i am trying to do, is improve my mid bass response without having to crossover at 80Hz. I would like for the MBM and speaker to act as one total full range speaker and have the punch in the 60-90Hz range coming from the MBM rather than the speaker. Is this possible and is it a good thing to do?

If you set the Xover on the receiver to 50hz, the receiver will only send 50hz to the subs. Meaning, the subs will handle anything from 50hz and lower. Since the Xover on the MBM is set at 50hz at it's lowest, the MBM is pretty much useless because the receiver is not sending anything over 50hz for it to work with. Now, if you set the receiver to 80hz, THEN the MBM has something to play with from 80hz-50hz.

I believe Kimwyn wants to insert Stereo MBMs via Speaker-level inputs. The MBM-12 would not receive an LFE signal and would be a part of a bi-amped, self-powered L/R speaker.

vitod

03-09-11, 10:46 AM

I believe Kimwyn wants to insert Stereo MBMs via Speaker-level inputs. The MBM-12 would not receive an LFE signal and would be a part of a bi-amped, self-powered L/R speaker.

Ah, thanks for clarifying. In that case, then it can be done.

Kimwyn

03-09-11, 11:24 AM

hey WTF, what is your take on what I am trying to achieve?

WhskyTangoFoxtrt

03-09-11, 11:33 AM

hey WTF, what is your take on what I am trying to achieve?

What AVR and L/R speakers are you using again?

Kimwyn

03-09-11, 11:54 AM

Pioneer Elite SC-27
Paradigm Signature S4 version 2

WhskyTangoFoxtrt

03-10-11, 10:20 PM

Pioneer Elite SC-27
Paradigm Signature S4 version 2

What you are talking about amounts to augmenting your L/R speakers with 12" woofers and adding 2 power amplifiers. What's not to like about that?

The MBMs are really cool toys, but can be tricky and/or time-consuming to implement properly. Although, inserting them into the chain as you're proposing may be pretty straight forward. I believe you would want to go for the MK2 version, with its sealed mode, to integrate easily with the sealed ULS-15s. You then may consider calibrating the MBM-12s and your S4s first (as one) to get the smoothest transition and response to around 50 Hz and then add in the ULS-15s for the material 50 Hz and below. I would suggest placing the MBMs up front, next to your S4s.

Your Paradigm speakers might be a little undersized to reproduce the mid-bass I think you're looking for and from the graph you posted, there may be an issue or two with the interaction of your speakers and subwoofers currently (e.g., crossover, phase, distance.) You might continue to play with placement, seating, and phase first. Depending on your room though, you just may be throwing more money at the problem.

Hope this helps a little.

Talmadge

04-10-11, 09:15 AM

I have two MBM-12 mk2's and recently moved to a new house. I have been experimenting with them and have found that one gives the desired effect in my new room which is smaller than the old one. If anyone is interested in a mk2 shoot me a pm. It's satin black. I have the box, packing, etc. and will ship. It's in the classified section. $435 shipped to lower 48. Saves over $100 from buying a new one.

skypop

04-10-11, 01:36 PM

I have two MBM-12 mk2's and recently moved to a new house. I have been experimenting with them and have found that one gives the desired effect in my new room which is smaller than the old one. If anyone is interested in a mk2 shoot me a pm. I have the box, packing, etc. and will ship. It's in the classifieds.

I sent you a PM.

elee532

04-22-11, 06:01 PM

Is anyone using a MBM in a primarily music setup... be it two channle or hi-res surround? Most references in the thread are to HT and MBM enhancement to the sound of bullets. :-)

I just placed the order for an MBM yesterday. Any music recommendations that will really show off what the MBM can do?

DexS

08-11-11, 11:59 PM

Hi Guys

I just bought a MBM12 to complement my VTF15. Right now in the midst of calibrating and positioning.

Am I right to say that the recommended setup is to use XO of the true sub and bypass XO of MBM12? Then set the XO at true sub at around 50hz level.

In that case, mbm12 will take care of anything from 50hz onwards. Do I set my AV receiver XO to be 60, 80 or 100hz?

Another question, do you guys prefer mbm to be in the front or nearfield? I want that in the chest upfront thumping so I thought I placed the mbm in front.

Thx

bsoko2

08-12-11, 02:53 AM

Proper way to set up a MBM-12 with a true sub: http://forum.hsuresearch.com/showpost.php?p=33939&postcount=33

DexS

08-12-11, 05:41 AM

--With the sub off, calibrate the MBM to the same level as the speakers
--With the MBM off, and the sub's xo switched off, calibrate it to the same level as the MBM and the speakers
--The above two steps match the level of the two subs to the same level, because you are matching their output at the same frequencies in the sub test tone
--Engage the sub's xo, turn both subs on, and calibrate the combined output of the sub and the MBM to match the level of the speakers

hi bsoko2

Can I clarify a few more points pls?

For the 1st two calibration, do I adjust using the sub gain knob or adjust the level of the sub via my AVR?

For the last step, am I right I adjust the output via my AVR level gain?

Thanks

bsoko2

08-12-11, 03:22 PM

hi bsoko2

Can I clarify a few more points pls?

For the 1st two calibration, do I adjust using the sub gain knob or adjust the level of the sub via my AVR?

For the last step, am I right I adjust the output via my AVR level gain?

Thanks

Basically, one at a time set the subwoofer gains via the reciever pink tone with a spl meter:

Set the MBM gain at 72-73 Db. The MBM has a builtin 50 Hz high cutoff.

Set the True Sub gain at 72-73 Db. Then turn the sub crossover to 50 Hz.

With both subwoofers on, set the receiver sub channel level at 72- 73 Db for a flat output or hot. For this to be effective, you want the MBM nearfield and the Tru Sub at the front. When I ran this combo som time back, I had the dual HSU 3.3's in the corners, and the dual MBM's at the front, one with each main. Try it both ways and see which one you like.

Bill

ralfale

08-18-11, 09:05 PM

Does it make gunshots more impactful n quicker if set mbm to sealed mode instead of ported?

Any other settings to fine-tune this ?

detroit1

12-15-11, 06:54 PM

Schuyler Bain

12-16-11, 12:36 PM

when people have used the MBM Mid Bass Module, has anyone actually noticed any delay issues? I hear people talk about it but I would like to know if anyone actually has hooked this up to existing subs that are playing everything below 80
If you did , did it work? can you notice any delay issue; of course this is in milliseconds
I see that the Behringer 2024 is no longer made as well
would like to hear about others experience with this and if they did buy a delay unit, which one?

I have 2 true subs in farfield and the MBM nearfield. The best way I can describe my experience with the delay would be - playing them all together you dont really notice an audible delay. However, when I turn off the MBM, the bass is more fluid and balanced. If you are considering an MBM for nearfield placement, just get it. It will take some work to integrate it, but it's well worth it in the end.

"Timoteo"

01-21-12, 06:39 PM

I have owned my HSU VTF-15H & the MBM-12 MK2 for about 4 months now. I have spent a hand full of evenings trying different placement locations, bass crawling, adjusting, measuring, re-adjusting etc!!! I have been able to get my bass (16hz-250hz) with no more than 2dBs of variation. The results have been nothing short of AMAZING!!

I have a livingroom that is 2,500cuft but it opens up to approx another 4,500cuft. I have owned 6 previous subs from Sony, B&W, MartinLogan, Klipsch & Earthquake. With each purchase the bass was an upgrade for sure. But my last sub upgrade were these HSU subs & the leap in bass was huge!

With my speakers crossed over at about 90hz the MBM is handling 90-50hz (Nearfield) & the VTF-15H is handling 50hz & below (Farfield). I have the MBM in sealed mode & the 15H in MaxOutput mode Q .4. Both subs phase are set to 0.

I dont get any hint of delay whatsoever!! Im wondering if your Phase is set wrong. Ever room & placement is different so you need to try all 4 Phase options between the 2 subs. Have someone else flip the Phase switches while you set & listen. If possible, have an SPL meter in hand when you do this. Listen for the bass to be more powerful & smoother. Try each sub set to 0, both set to 180 & both options of them set opposite.

I have always been intrigued by the idea of splitting up the bass frequencies ever since i first read about it a few years ago. We do this for all the other frequencies by using tweeters, mid drivers & bass drivers so why not do it with sub-bass frequencies. I can personally vouch that 12" subs hit hard & clean but 15" subs dig deep. The combo of the MBM & a true sub of choice works so d@mn well i love it. Problem is however, that mow i want to save so i can get another MBM & another VTF-15H so i can have the MBMs in the back 2 corners & the 2 15Hs up front. Haha thatd be nice!! :)

For anyone considering the MBM-12, i personally recommend it very highly!!
Well done HSU!!