OFFICIAL Hsu MBM-12 thread [Text View]

MegaFlop

02-08-07, 11:31 AM

Well the MBM-12 arrived right on time and I set it up immediately when I was home. I was very excited to get to try it out. Here are my initial impressions.

The box seems nice and solid. Looking through the huge 4" port I can see a cross brace and a good bit of stuffing. You can feel the top of the woofer just below the port so the woofer is fairly large extending up about halfway inside the box. The woofer seems very stiff and it has a accordion style surround (like you see on pro audio drivers).

I had pre-moved my Velodyne F1800XR into the corner in the front left of the room. It was originally in the front center. I ended up having to adjust the gain down some and I was happy to see that I was getting some additional corner boost from the new location.

My house is a open floor plan design with the living room / dinning room / kitchen all basically in one big room. The HT area occupies about 1/2 of the living room / dining room space. My couch sits in the middle of the room with nothing behind it so I immediately put the MBM-12 behind the couch. I did a quick calibration with a SPL meter to set the levels. With my Velodyne turned off I level matched the MBM-12 with the mains and then turned the Velodyne back on (~50hz xover on the Velodyne). When both subs were on the overall subwoofer level was about 3db hot so I dialed the master sub-out level down to match the mains. This seemed to get me in the ballpark with the levels.

The MBM-12 is super efficient. Including the min and max level stops there are 7 total hash marks around the volume control. I had it turned up about 3/4 of the way to the "first" hash mark past min. I am running powered monitors which are reasonably sensitive so it isn't like I am matching the MBM-12 up to Magnepans.

Initial listening test. I fired up some bass heavy CDs. OMG the bass punch is there alright, that little box can sure move some air. The bass was very tight and quick. I didn't notice any box noise or strange resonances. I did notice a huge increase in the tactile effect, in fact it was too huge. I initially set the unit up with the port facing the couch and this was just too much. I felt like I was sitting on a buttkicker. I turned the unit sideways with the port firing along the side of the couch and played with the levels slightly. Then I fired up War of the Worlds. Definite improvement in bass slam, the alien lasers were incredible. I know I am getting more total bass energy because I heard new rattles. The "True Sub" was impossible to localize with the 50hz xover. I had to turn it off to notice that it was actually working. Unfortunately I felt like I could localize the MBM-12 behind the couch (80hz xover on the processor). I mainly noticed it during the Tri-Pod steps. Next up was some Dark side of the Moon SACD. Here I felt like I couldn't really localize the bass except for the fact that I could feel the bass impact more on the back and bottom of the couch. I played some Linkin Park DVD-A and Blue Man Group Audio. The MBM-12 was incredible on both of those albums and I had definite improvements in bass even with my system level matched. However I couldn't get it out of my mind that the couch shaking tactile effect was a bit unnatural.

I moved the MBM-12 to the front of the room slightly off center (pulled out from the wall a bit) just to experiment with it. One benefit of the MBM-12 is that it's small size lends itself to being moved around. I adjusted the level and phase (I turned the gain up slightly to the first hash mark, plenty of headroom available).

I feel like the integration is optimum here and I am still getting improved bass response (more new rattles). It is not quite as effective on War of the Worlds as it was behind the couch, but clearly it is better for music listening.

So my evaluation will continue. I must say that I am impressed so far. The MBM-12 is the least expensive component in my system (Each of my Focal powered monitors cost considerably more) and it has made a definite improvement. I have never heard a 12" HT sub that can hit as hard as the MBM-12. I was skeptical at first since I already have a 18" sub and adding a 12" seems backwards, but the MBM-12 really works as advertised. My only minor complaint is that it doesn't have a variable phase control, on a item that is supposed to integrated between two other speakers it seems like that would be useful. I really like that the "True Sub" cannot be localized at all in the corner with the 50hz over.

bgillyjcu

02-08-07, 12:09 PM

Matt34

02-08-07, 12:44 PM

Nice review MegaFlop. Like you said keep experimenting and you should find that "sweet spot".

bgillyjcu

02-08-07, 01:08 PM

What we really need is someone to plot some graphs of reponse with their speakers turned off and just their main sub playing. Then do the same thing only this time add in the MBM...

Run some frequency sweeps and see how things pan out.....also use movie scenes and music to see how that plays out as well.

That would give us the true picture of what exactly this sub is doing for the system besides the persons listening perspective...

Matt34

02-08-07, 02:32 PM

desertdome

02-08-07, 03:55 PM

I received my MBM-12 and VTF-2 Mk-3 yesterday, too. I went home at lunch and hooked them up. Both together played lower and with greater impact than my VTF-2 Mk-1 (10" woofer). I didn't have much time to fully test them and play with placement, but I did use Room Equalization Wizard to run some sweeps. My frequency response was much flatter with no nulls in the 50-120 Hz range.

I did listen to parts of a few songs from my XRCD of Eagles - Hell Freezes Over with the MBM-12 hooked up and crossed over at 120 Hz. I have the MBM-12 located on the side wall of my living room about 5 ft from the listing position with the port opposite the wall. It is in the same location that my sub had been located. I put the new sub in the front right corner of the living room.

The MBM-12 blended very well with my satellites and I was not able to localize it. However, because it was in the same place that my VFF 2.1 had been, I thought the mid-bass sounded about the same. I still need to do some more calibration and experiment with the delay and phase. My initial impression of my satellites is that they sounded more articulate and sweet. I only changed my crossover from 100 Hz to 120 Hz, but I also didn't have a null in the 80-120 Hz range.

I am very busy and won't have time to fully calibrate and test for probably a few weeks. I will post more after I have finished (If one is ever "finished.") :)

MegaFlop

02-08-07, 08:42 PM

Excellent review. I love reading how you moved it around, the feeling in different places....a great review to check out if you are considering buying one.

About how loud of a master volume do you listen to movies....like WOTW or anything really. I know DD and DTS volumes can vary.

I was hitting 104-105db at the seating position during the emergence scene on WOTW (laser blasts into buildings) That is about as loud as I ever listen. I had no indications of distress from either of the subs at that level.

jonnyozero3

02-08-07, 08:48 PM

Dreamcatcher has already done the FR sweeps.

Dreamcatchers SMS-1 graphs (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=768725&page=3&pp=30)

Start at post #71

He had some pretty amazing comments about the HO/MBM combo, considering the wide variety of good subs he's had in his system. Very cool.

(Yes, I'm a HO owner so I noticed)

CKYRO1

02-09-07, 06:22 AM

i have the vtf 3.3 playing fantastically with my orbs mod 2's. was thinking of getting the mb12, but i still have the super 8 sub that i got with the orbs. the super 8 is great for midbass, but it doesn't have a low pass crossover, so i can let in up to 200 hz, but won't be able to block anything under 50. is there a way to do this? i'm thinking this will give me a similar mb12 experience, but don't know how to stop those lower freq's fom playing on the super 8. any ideas?

ribbit

02-09-07, 06:58 AM

external crossover ... I was looking at the behringer crossovers myself.

please try it out and report back :)

CKYRO1

02-09-07, 09:37 AM

can the left and right outputs on the behringer be adjusted independently of one another?

CKYRO1

02-09-07, 10:53 AM

can the left and right outputs on the behringer be adjusted independentlyof one another?

xact

02-09-07, 10:11 PM

Including the min and max level stops there are 7 total hash marks around the volume control. I had it turned up about 3/4 of the way to the "first" hash mark past min. I am running powered monitors which are reasonably sensitive so it isn't like I am matching the MBM-12 up to Magnepans.
Thanks for posting this... I have my MBM-12's gain control set at basically the same position. I've been meaning to contact Hsu support to see if this hypersensitive gain control is 'normal'. It seems excessively sensitive to me - almost to the point of being difficult to adjust. (I started with the gain turned to about 20% and thought I was going to flip my chairs over when it kicked on...)

My only minor complaint is that it doesn't have a variable phase control, on a item that is supposed to integrated between two other speakers it seems like that would be useful.
I totally agree.

Peter Marcks

02-09-07, 10:27 PM

I don't think it would be very beneficial to have an analog variable phase control. If you want something to time align to the true sub, then you can use the Behringer Virtualizer (DSP2024P), which is available online for around $100. Dr. Hsu got his from American Music Supply.

bgillyjcu

02-16-07, 09:08 AM

Would that issue go away if you had the MBM just handle 50hz and up and your other sub crossed over to just handle the 50hz and below material??

JimP

02-16-07, 10:02 AM

bgillyjcu

The problem here is that cross overs are not like a brick wall. It isn't where at 50hz the MBM is active and at 49 hz its dead silent. Nor would the woofer be active at 49 hz and dead silent at 50 hz. If you look at discussions on crossovers, the term slope pops up. Basically, it describes at what rate the SPL decreases outside the crossover frequency. Its not uncommon to have a 24db drop per octave. That may sound like a lot, but near the crossover the drop isn't all that great. So if your phase is off, the out of phase signals serve to cancel each other.

gbondioli

02-16-07, 08:15 PM

Let's say you have 4 or 8 seats. Even if you time-align the MBM with your sub to get perfect response at the main LP, you still might have cancellation issues at the other LP's, right? So, you can't have everything perfect, and most people still find this acceptable. Therefore, can't you get a nearfield MBM + farfield sub to sound just as accectable at multiple LP's without time alignment?

JimP

02-17-07, 01:31 AM

gbondioli,

I think its going to depend on one's definition of what's acceptable. As you mentioned, when you have 4 or 8 seats, how can you possibly have it sound premium in every seat? There's got to be some compromising somewhere.

After getting the MBM and sub time aligned to each other and aligned to the mains, today I found that other sounds above the sub and MBM range sound slightly distorted. So, I'm back at the drawing board once again. Reverted back to my Velodyne sub, SMS-1 and regular speakers to give myself a break to regroup.

movies2090

02-19-07, 09:58 PM

I just purchased an MBM after reading many of the threads in here on how it was a great upgrade for the price. I am pairing it with a SVS PB12-ISD. I have the MBM behind my recliner about 7ft (regular sub is 13ft away) After my initial runthrough I have to say I don't see much of a difference. IT just feels like a sub that I put behind me. Nothing more nothing less. It seems just like any other sub. I'm not a HUGE audiophile but I like my stuff to sound great. I think I'm gonna do some more testing tomorrow on my off day but as of right now I'll probably be sending it back for refund. I will say it did sound good RIGHT behind my recliner but it isn't a practical spot and I'm sure it would be annoying after a 2/3 hour movie. I have my main sub set to 50hz and below and the MBM at 50 and up. It was turned about to about 9 o clock. These are just my thoughts though... OH and by the way I have a 3000cubic/ft room.

PTT

02-19-07, 10:27 PM

I just purchased an MBM after reading many of the threads in here on how it was a great upgrade for the price. I am pairing it with a SVS PB12-ISD. I have the MBM behind my recliner about 7ft (regular sub is 13ft away) After my initial runthrough I have to say I don't see much of a difference. IT just feels like a sub that I put behind me. Nothing more nothing less. It seems just like any other sub. I'm not a HUGE audiophile but I like my stuff to sound great. I think I'm gonna do some more testing tomorrow on my off day but as of right now I'll probably be sending it back for refund. I will say it did sound good RIGHT behind my recliner but it isn't a practical spot and I'm sure it would be annoying after a 2/3 hour movie. I have my main sub set to 50hz and below and the MBM at 80. It was turned about to about 9 o clock. These are just my thoughts though... OH and by the way I have a 3000cubic/ft room.

Shouldn't your MBM be playing from 50hz and up if you are crossing your main sub at 50hz and down I mean?

pt

movies2090

02-19-07, 10:35 PM

Yeah it is... I just worded it badly.

Peter Marcks

02-19-07, 10:36 PM

movies, may I see a sketch of your room, including dimensions and the current positions for the deep bass subwoofer and mid-bass module? You should notice a big difference in mid-bass impact (probably +10db higher output in the mid-bass region) in addition to signficantly improved mid/upper bass frequency response linearity. The entire bass system should actually improve as you take some of the load off the deep bass subwoofer.

Note that you shouldn't place the module 7 feet away behind you. I would recommend placing it sideways behind the primary listening position, with the deep bass subwoofer in the front corner.

movies2090

02-19-07, 10:48 PM

Please mind the crudity of that picture. I have the sub right next to the computer stand. It's the only place asthetically it can go.

Peter Marcks

02-19-07, 10:56 PM

Jason, the first thing you should do is try to move your primary listening position away from the center of the room! With your current location for the recliner, you will experience a strong null from the room's standing waves.

The front left corner should be ok for the true subwoofer, with the MBM-12 sideways directly behind the couch. Just try to avoid sitting in the middle of the room, or placing any subwoofer there.

You would actually get better bass if you reoriented your setup with the TV and speakers/sub on the left wall.

Sincerely,

movies2090

02-19-07, 11:16 PM

Reorienting my setup just won't work. And why is sitting in the middle of the room so poor? I figured that's the perfect place to sit. It's where I sit in movie theatres and such.

Peter Marcks

02-19-07, 11:45 PM

That's too bad, it would sound even better :)

The center of the room is where a strong null develops due to the physics involved with standing waves and how they interact in the midpoint of the room.

Splotto

02-20-07, 07:11 AM

Reorienting my setup just won't work. And why is sitting in the middle of the room so poor? I figured that's the perfect place to sit. It's where I sit in movie theatres and such.

Movies:

Here is a good (but long) read on how waves setup in rooms and how various shapes of rooms effect the location of the waves.

http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/Loudspeakers&RoomsPt3.pdf

In short, he concludes that no room shape can be called optimal, but you can orient your seat and your equipment to provide the best listening experience.

I would first calibrate your system to your listening position with an SPL or your receivers software (my Denon can very close to proper calibration on it's own without my SPL).

Then, with a constant test tone I would move around the room to make sure your listening position isn't in a local null (e.g. you might calibrate your position to 70 db and once you move the meter, the rest of the room might be at 90). You should also check you other seating positions.

You might then want to make minor adjustments in you seating positions or equipment to remove any null if it falls at or near your seating positions.

After that I think you will have done about as much as you could given your constraints.

Splotto

bgillyjcu

02-20-07, 08:51 AM

Reorienting my setup just won't work. And why is sitting in the middle of the room so poor? I figured that's the perfect place to sit. It's where I sit in movie theatres and such.

Why is it bad.....because your room is not a movie theater with TONS OF SPEAKERS, sound treatments, and tons of power, just to name a few...

We wouldn't steer you wrong...middle is the worst.....try putting your chair about 3 feet from the back wall..

jonnyozero3

02-20-07, 01:09 PM

Reorienting my setup just won't work. And why is sitting in the middle of the room so poor? I figured that's the perfect place to sit. It's where I sit in movie theatres and such.

Even if you could just move your chair back about 3ft, it may help.

Edit: Try out this spreadsheet. **Rename it to .xls instead of .txt first**

bgillyjcu

02-20-07, 02:01 PM

Jonny...I just dont get what the lines mean....what should I be looking for?

Splotto

02-20-07, 03:11 PM

Jonny...I just dont get what the lines mean....what should I be looking for?

I believe the lines are sound levels at a given point from the reference wall. the valleys are where waves overlap to create a null.

Splotto

PS I received my MBM12 about a week ago and love it. I am still playing with locations but I can notice an impact without localization.

jonnyozero3

02-20-07, 09:36 PM

Jonny...I just dont get what the lines mean....what should I be looking for?

Splotto's got it really. The colored lines just graphically show you what the data in the upper portion of the sheet is telling you - that you have first order axial standing waves at the three frequencies in blue (for height, width, length), then second order (first harmonic of the first one) in black, then third, etc.

In layman's terms, using Movies2090's room, 9 feet from his back wall (1/2 room length) he has a null at 31Hz. Basically, precisely at the center, there will be nearly zero sound at 31Hz due to cancellation. Notice that the same thing is happening at the width midpoint at 35Hz...also right ontop of the recliner. So, that recliner position is really hurting for output in the low 30Hz area.

But, if he moves his chair back about 3 feet (just past the yellow 6 3/4'), he is no longer in the middle of that null. Now, then there's the 4th order null to worry about, so...pick your poison.

NOTE: Someone please fact check me here - I've been known to explain this stuff wrong or in a misleading manner :) But I think I've got it right...

beyondspecs

03-18-08, 08:49 AM

I ordered two MBM-12's to play the "hard to reproduce" (and soooo sweet sounding) mid-bass SPL's to blend with my sub and mains/surrounds. I'm looking for full range, high-end fidelity reproduction that goes up in a linear relationship as I adjust the main volume.

Here's HSU (great support) recommendations: I can hook MBM-12's up several ways and am looking forward to playing with different ideas/placements.

1) Leave the RF-7 front main signals at full (large - I will experiment with small, too). Connect the MBM-12's to the L/R speaker leads next to the RF-7's. Set the LFE low pass to my sub around 40-60 Hz. Set the MBM-12's to 150 low pass. The Klipsch's and MBM-12's both blend to reproduce 50 to 150 Hz together. Below 50Hz goes to the sub. The RF-7's get the full main signals (unless the small setting sounds cleaner and fuller), and take it the rest of the way up.

2) LFE connection: MBM-12's and sub all connected to the LFE with high quality "Y" connection for the MBM-12's. The MBM-12's are going behind the couch or in left and right end table positions. Or, near the RF-7's ports. Using the LFE, set the MBM-12's crossover to about 80 and the sub's around 50 Hz. The RF-7's get the full L/R main signals. The sub handles 50 Hz and below, the MBM-s handle 50-80 Hz, and the RF-7's get the full main signals.

Crossover points and placement will be a major player on tuning.

With a 30 x 30 foot room, I have the Klipsch's spread out further than most DEMO rooms yet aimed towards a main listening sweet spot.

As a side note, on top of the RF-7's, I placed multi-directional tweeters. The tweeter cabinets aim two tweeters straight ahead, two at L/R 45 degree angles, and 2 at L/R 90 degree angles. I also have another pair of the multi-directional tweeters placed up high for lower volume fill.

When moving around the room, it sounds like a live sound stage. To my ears, it's linear and sweet, creating multiple sweet spots just like musicians hear playing live. That's just the way I want to hear recordings.

I was looking at new true subs and the journey began. Listening to musical instruments, I'd hear musical notes drop off both ABOVE and BELOW my sub's playing abilities. The best thing I did for my older 12 inch downfiring sub was to place it on a 18 inch table in a adjacent, closed off hall to my 30 x 30 foot listening room. HUGE musical difference in everyway. Then, I moved it right behind a RF-7's rear ports. The blend was immediately better throughout the entire soundstage.

I started looking for what I feel was the missing link - powered, real mid bass. Vandersteen Quad's and 5A's and others have powered mid-bass type components. Most studio monitors for mixing and recordng have separate built-in amps for both high and low drivers to get it right.

I like the open soundstage of the RF-7's immensely. I play piano, bass and guitar and I know how real musicians sound and musically blend acoustic and electric instruments together.

I'll experiment until the SPL's sound flat and even. I have an idea that any of the recommended set-up's from HSU, with my musician/new audiophile tweeking, is going to sound linear and clear as the main volume is adjusted.

My source is a OPPO 981, and Yamaha 7.1 RX-V2400 (125 x 7). The Yamaha has a sound stage optimizer mike to help me set-up balanced SPL's at all frequencies. To me, it's a nice combo for now. I may add a Rotel 1095 later (200 x 5) for headroom and use the Yamaha as a pre/processor. The powered MBM-12's may be the only upgrade I need for now.

Back to my budget 200 watt 12 inch sub. The Epic Conquest looks great because it's flat to about 16 Hz. The Elemental Designs dual 18 inch is another top shelf choice. The SVS Ultra also looks very sweet. There are many great subs discussed here - I want a flat, musical response down way, way low. There are great musical sounds way down there. To my ears, great lower harmonies add enhanced balance to an overall soundstage.

Musical clarity and balance is my first priority goal. A full HT experience should fall right into place and sound fabulous. I want to set up a live sounding, high-end soundstage that can take command of any situation first, then "forget the system" and really enjoy the sounds.

I'll post my results after working on placement and crossover points, if I don't end up in musical bliss for months like a absent minded professor. Please add comments in any way. This is my first post and YOUR posts have helped in countless ways over and over.

Thanks much.

bsoko2

03-18-08, 11:37 AM

Pharcyde23

03-18-08, 12:03 PM

I have 2 MBM-12's and a 3.3 Turbo. I tried different combos in my room (6000+ cubic feet with 2 large openings on the left to other parts of the house) and came up with the best way for me. I read a report written by mojave on SUB LOCALIZATION, http://forum.hsuresearch.com/showthr...ght=crossover? So I set up my 2 MBM-12's (one with each main 50hz up, E-90's) with a xover of 150hz, and a 3.3 Turbo (nearfield, 50hz down) behind the seating area. The MBM-12's sure take the strain off the mains and allow a higher xover and there is no localization of the Turbo. The bass punch is there and the SQ for HT & Music is excellent.

Bill

Just making sure I'm reading this right. You have your MBMs towards the front of the room (farfield) and the 3.3 behind you (nearfield)? MBMs crossed at 150hz?
I just finished some tweaks and have my MBM/2.3 combo set up in a opposite way of yours. Might have to try it the other way...

bsoko2

03-18-08, 12:42 PM

Just making sure I'm reading this right. You have your MBMs towards the front of the room (farfield) and the 3.3 behind you (nearfield)? MBMs crossed at 150hz?
I just finished some tweaks and have my MBM/2.3 combo set up in a opposite way of yours. Might have to try it the other way...

Correct! The MBM-12's are right next to the mains and blend quite well and xover'd at 150hz. 3.3 Turbo right behind the couch where I sit and xover'd at 50hz. The 3.3 Turbo acts like butt shakers when the bass is intense and I do have 2 butt shakers in the couch but never use them since the new sub setup. Movies and music are most excellent!

Bill

Pharcyde23

03-18-08, 12:50 PM

Correct! The MBM-12's are right next to the mains and blend quite well and xover'd at 150hz. 3.3 Turbo right behind the couch where I sit and xover'd at 50hz. The 3.3 Turbo acts like butt shakers when the bass is intense and I do have 2 butt shakers in the couch but never use them since the new sub setup. Movies and music are most excellent!

Bill

Looks like I have some more shifting to do...

What is the LFE on your avr crossed at? and mains?

guy80

03-18-08, 12:50 PM

Anyone ever attempted to use these with Planars? Magnepans specifically?

Planning a basement system & it would be nice to take some of the load off of the Maggies.....approx 15,000cu ft.....this is why I'm going with a Conquest

BluLover

03-18-08, 12:57 PM

I just recently bought the Hsu VTF-3 MK3, which I love. But I still find myself looking at the MBM-12 almost everyday. So I believe that I will eventually be adding it to my setup.

bsoko2

03-18-08, 01:05 PM

Looks like I have some more shifting to do...

What is the LFE on your avr crossed at? and mains?

Avr (Pio '94)LFE xover'd at 150hz, and the mains have no xover to adjust (JBL E90's). Here is a list of my gear:

Pioneer - VSX-94THX
Bue Jeans cables
JBL - E90 mains w/M2200 200 watt Mono Blocks
JBL - EC35 center w/M2200 200 watt Mono Block
INFINITY - Beta ES250 surrounds
JBL - E50 rear surrounds
HSU - (1) VTF-3 MK3 Turbo
HSU - (2) MBM-12 (one w/ea main)
Toshibia HD DVD AX2 (HDDVD)
Panasonic DMP-BD30 (BluRay)
Sony SCD-CE595 SACD (5 disc cd/sacd player)

Bill:)

beyondspecs

03-20-08, 01:40 AM

My MBM's haven't arrived yet, but I wanted to answer a question at the beginning of the post. Why did I order the MBM's? I want elegant, full sound stage reproduction at ALL volume levels - low, medium and high.

80-85 dB on a C-weighted slow scale is very close to my max listening volume. Occassionally, I listen to higher volumes with great care. My bilateral audiogram test results look completely normal. I'm also very careful with headphones.

I was listening to CSNY's Judy Blue Eyes. I tuned my subs internal crossover way up to 120 Hz and adjusted the gain down slightly. Beauty unfolded. The "new" notes added between 50 to 120 Hz from the powered sub driver made such a enjoyable difference to my ears, that I had to locate a special unit(s) designed to fill this new mid-bass musical experience.

My modest 12 inch downfiring sub, adjusted to 120 Hz and placed up on a 18 inch table next to a RF-7's rear ports, blended "mid-bass" notes together. My whole system sounds "new".

Some recordings sounded muddy. Another member posted that final mixes vary greatly between recordings. Sub placement was very important. The sub has it's own dedicated hallway. With the hallways' far door shut, the overall blend between the sub and RF-7's sounded better than ever. Somehow, the closed hallway door pressurized and mixed the sub's output much better throughout the 30 x 30 sound stage.

I listened to many recording techniques/final mixes and made adjustments on my sub's crossover and position. The experience with my system made it clear that it needed a special unit(s) designed just to reproduce mid-bass music more accurately. I feel dedicated mid-bass units offer so much that they may become very popular.

The MBM's additional cost on top of a sub and mains is a real issue. New, top shelf high-end products are costly. One MBM behind the couch would have probably been perfect for HT. For music, I chose a stereo pair for headroom and to separate the musicians and instuments better playing at and reproduced at low, medium and higher volume levels.

Dan

bsoko2

03-20-08, 10:56 AM

We are all finding a benefit to having the MBM-12 whether it is for HT or just listening to our favorite music. I know for me that my setup has opened up a whole new world for me for music listening and has added more enjoyment to movies.

Bill

Ironmike86

06-13-08, 07:53 PM

Ppl still buying this? Anymore +/- reviews?

BluLover

06-13-08, 10:07 PM

I have a VTF-3.3 with Turbo placed on the right front corner of my room firing into the wall.

I have an MBM-12 nearfield behind my couch.

I have an Onkyo 705

I have 6 bookshelf speakers

What XO do you suggest that I use for my speakers and subs?
All suggestions are welcome.

Thanks.

Pharcyde23

06-13-08, 10:37 PM

BluLover

06-14-08, 03:03 AM

Try 80hz across the front, 100hz for surround, and anywhere from 100-150hz on the LFE. MBM at 150hz out, 3.3 at 50hz in.

I followed your advice.

I set it to 80Hz across the front, 100hz for surround, and 120Hz on the LFE (The Onkyo 705 can only go up to 120Hz on the LFE).
And MBM at 150hz out, 3.3 + Turbo at 50hz in.

What I noticed immediately is there was no more boominess, and NO MORE localization.
By going MBM at 150hz out does it mean that my LFE in the Onkyo has now been bypassed?

What did I just do, and why does it make such a difference?

Pharcyde23

06-14-08, 08:58 AM

What I noticed immediately is there was no more boominess, and NO MORE localization.
By going MBM at 150hz out does it mean that my LFE in the Onkyo has now been bypassed?

What did I just do, and why does it make such a difference?

You didn't bypass the Onkyo. By using "out" on the MBM you're letting the receiver set the XO point.

What were your settings before that localized the subs?

thsmith

06-14-08, 11:17 AM

Ppl still buying this? Anymore +/- reviews?

I have had mine for about 2 months. 3 3 T front left corner and MBM behind the couch. 3 3 T xo in set at 50hz, MBM xo out and Denon 2808 xo currently set at 120hz.

Still playing some but enjoy this configuration greatly.

bsoko2

06-14-08, 01:04 PM

I'm still running 150hz on the xover and wouldn't do it any other way. There is so much more detail in the bass and upper ranges.

Bill

BluLover

06-14-08, 01:15 PM

I'm still running 150hz on the xover and wouldn't do it any other way. There is so much more detail in the bass and upper ranges.

Bill
It's because you have two MBMs.:)

BluLover

06-14-08, 01:19 PM

What were your settings before that localized the subs?

I had the fronts and the front surrounds at 150Hz, the back surrounds at 120Hz, and the XO at 100Hz.

There was a lot of boominess, and I could tell where the MBM was and could localize it. Now with your setting, the sound is flat and no localization.:)

Pete_Hsu

06-14-08, 03:20 PM

I had the fronts and the front surrounds at 150Hz, the back surrounds at 120Hz, and the XO at 100Hz.

There was a lot of boominess, and I could tell where the MBM was and could localize it. Now with your setting, the sound is flat and no localization.:)

Blu, that is because in the nearfield, one should generally not cross the MBM-12 much higher than about 80-100Hz, or else the module will be easily localizeable.

In my opinion, generally the best place to reproduce mid-bass (50-80Hz region) is in the nearfield, right next to the primary listening position. I like using the module sideways centered directly behind the couch. Sometimes people are not able to place the module right next to their primary listening position, or have other constaints related to the room or the capabilities of their front speakers, and in those cases it makes sense to use a couple MBM's to flank the L/R front speakers.

I spent some time comparing MBM-12 (nearfield) + VTF-3 HO/t (farfield) combo vs a VTF-3 MK3 (nearfield) and VTF-2 MK3 (nearfield) in our demo room, and to me the MBM-12 sounds more musical, more "tight", with less "boom" in comparison to the -2 MK3 and -3 MK3 on their own (all using an 80Hz crossover to the main speakers). I really love using the MBM in the system, as I feel the bass lines are more well defined, sound is cleaner (lower distortion), and headroom is higher.

Ironmike86

06-14-08, 03:52 PM

How would a Mbm sound stack on 2 stacked subs in the far field?
If the subs don't sound localized can the MBM??
Is the cross over setting all that's needed not to sound localized?

BluLover

06-14-08, 05:50 PM

Blu, that is because in the nearfield, one should generally not cross the MBM-12 much higher than about 80-100Hz, or else the module will be easily localizeable.

In my opinion, generally the best place to reproduce mid-bass (50-80Hz region) is in the nearfield, right next to the primary listening position. I like using the module sideways centered directly behind the couch. Sometimes people are not able to place the module right next to their primary listening position, or have other constaints related to the room or the capabilities of their front speakers, and in those cases it makes sense to use a couple MBM's to flank the L/R front speakers.

I spent some time comparing MBM-12 (nearfield) + VTF-3 HO/t (farfield) combo vs a VTF-3 MK3 (nearfield) and VTF-2 MK3 (nearfield) in our demo room, and to me the MBM-12 sounds more musical, more "tight", with less "boom" in comparison to the -2 MK3 and -3 MK3 on their own (all using an 80Hz crossover to the main speakers). I really love using the MBM in the system, as I feel the bass lines are more well defined, sound is cleaner (lower distortion), and headroom is higher.I would probably be buying a 2nd MBM-12 before the end of the month.

Question:

If I were to set the XO to 80Hz, then what settings do you recommend for the fronts, the surrounds, and the back surrounds?

Myggpower

06-14-08, 06:37 PM

I got a MBM12 which is placed nearfield (just behind the couch where I sit)., I guess the best way to "describe" the bass, is that it is really punchy.. you know, like PA punchy! Fast and delicious "hit in the chest" bass. You can't localize the bass coming from the sub - if integrated properly. I might get a 2nd one to get the SPL I crave for, at certain songs.. :)

bsoko2

06-14-08, 07:19 PM

Pete_Hsu

06-16-08, 12:00 PM

Hi Ironmike,

How would a Mbm sound stack on 2 stacked subs in the far field?
If the subs don't sound localized can the MBM??
Is the cross over setting all that's needed not to sound localized?

Do you mean, if one has two true subwoofers stacked in a corner, how will the MBM sound if stacked on top of that? I wouldn't recommend stacking the MBM like that...

Sincerely,

Pete_Hsu

06-16-08, 12:01 PM

Hi Blu,

I would probably be buying a 2nd MBM-12 before the end of the month.

Question:

If I were to set the XO to 80Hz, then what settings do you recommend for the fronts, the surrounds, and the back surrounds?

An 80Hz crossover all around would be just fine.

I'm looking forward to reading about what works best for you when you add a second MBM-12. :)

BluLover

06-17-08, 01:46 AM

Hi Blu,

An 80Hz crossover all around would be just fine.

I'm looking forward to reading about what works best for you when you add a second MBM-12. :)

I followed your direction, and 80Hz all around was perfect! I guess I should have followed Onkyo's lead. Thanks.:)

Ironmike86

06-17-08, 06:55 PM

Hi Ironmike,

Do you mean, if one has two true subwoofers stacked in a corner, how will the MBM sound if stacked on top of that? I wouldn't recommend stacking the MBM like that...

Sincerely,
That's the only place I have room for a MBM.:( Maybe I'll just settle for 3 identical stacked subs :)

BluLover

06-18-08, 11:08 AM

That's the only place I have room for a MBM.:( Maybe I'll just settle for 3 identical stacked subs :)

Back of your sofa or under your endtable?

Ironmike86

06-18-08, 07:10 PM

Back of your sofa or under your endtable?
Nope. One spot. If the MBM won't work which I hoped it may. Another sub would help plenty maybe 2 :)
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f98/ironmike86/DSC06016.jpg
It's just my small gaming room with two Pb10. Only 1,440 ^3

BluLover

06-20-08, 06:37 PM

What kinda deal would you give me on a second MBM?

You may PM me if you wish.

bsoko2

06-20-08, 08:52 PM

What kinda deal would you give me on a second MBM?

You may PM me if you wish.

They won't give much! I think I got 30 off when I got my 2nd one. Try "B" stock.

Bill

BluLover

06-21-08, 01:24 AM

They won't give much! I think I got 30 off when I got my 2nd one. Try "B" stock.

BillOnly $30?:eek:

bsoko2

06-21-08, 04:21 AM

Only $30?:eek:

Yes!

BluLover

06-21-08, 12:18 PM

Yes!

I got more discount than that when I added my MBM.

BluLover

06-25-08, 11:20 AM

Anybody know what happened to Pete_Hsu?

weverb

06-25-08, 11:23 AM

Probably got lost in the port of their new sub they are releasing soon!

BluLover

06-26-08, 02:27 AM

Probably got lost in the port of their new sub they are releasing soon!

:D:D

weverb

06-26-08, 10:22 AM

Blu,

Did you pick up the MBM they had on B-stock yesterday for $400? That is a $99 savings!

BluLover

06-27-08, 01:50 AM

Blu,

Did you pick up the MBM they had on B-stock yesterday for $400? That is a $99 savings!

After I took Pete_Hsu's advice by setting my Onkyo's XO to 80HZ on all speakers, my 3.3 turbo and MBM setup started blowing me away.

I don't think that I will be needing another MBM just yet. But if I decided to, I would just get an extra 3.3 and another MBM together.

bsoko2

06-27-08, 11:23 AM

thsmith

06-27-08, 12:30 PM

After I took Pete_Hsu's advice by setting my Onkyo's XO to 80HZ on all speakers, my 3.3 turbo and MBM setup started blowing me away.

I don't think that I will be needing another MBM just yet. But if I decided to, I would just get an extra 3.3 and another MBM together.

Blu, I have a 3 3 T front left corner with MBM behind the couch. Have been playing with XO 90hz-150hz on AVR. I have finally settled in with 80hz xo with adding a few db gain on Denon AVR and think that is the sweet spot for now.

The problem is all this bass goodness is that it is an addiction and I want more. I have more than enough but someday when I group up I want to be like bsoko and add another 3 3 and MBM.

BluLover

06-27-08, 01:06 PM

Blu, I have a 3 3 T front left corner with MBM behind the couch. Have been playing with XO 90hz-150hz on AVR. I have finally settled in with 80hz xo with adding a few db gain on Denon AVR and think that is the sweet spot for now.

The problem is all this bass goodness is that it is an addiction and I want more. I have more than enough but someday when I group up I want to be like bsoko and add another 3 3 and MBM.

Bsoko is a bad influence on all of us. He even has me wanting to buy another 3.3 and MBM-12 just out of curiosity.

We might be buying a house with a nice size media room within the next 6 months, so I will be most likely copying him.:o

By the way, I have an Onkyo AVR with THX; and the recommended setting for a THX system is 80Hz on everything. And it works like a charm.:)

BluLover

06-27-08, 01:07 PM

Copy cat!

:p:p:D

Archbushman

06-28-08, 10:30 PM

Guys,
Just ordered a MBM-12...should be hear Wed...just wondering if any of you have suggestions for demo material that shows off the MBM-12 (besides Open Range) Thanks, Bill

BluLover

06-28-08, 11:22 PM

Guys,
Just ordered a MBM-12...should be hear Wed...just wondering if any of you have suggestions for demo material that shows off the MBM-12 (besides Open Range) Thanks, Bill

If you have a Blu-ray player, just about anything sounds great. Try Cloverfield on BD, or War of the Worlds on SD.

a3plew

06-28-08, 11:55 PM

Guys,
Just ordered a MBM-12...should be hear Wed...just wondering if any of you have suggestions for demo material that shows off the MBM-12 (besides Open Range) Thanks, Bill

I just got my mbm-12 yesterday:D It capable of giving so much punch. I have a demo disc with the House of Flying Daggers scene were the girl is slamming on the drums.:D lol watch as close to reference level as you can. It so amazing. lol it pretty much makes most things sound good. It's so clean/tight and can get loud. Go through your favorite albums. Try near field placement too.:cool: I still have a big stupid grin on my face:D

BluLover

06-29-08, 01:53 AM

I just got my mbm-12 yesterday:D It capable of giving so much punch. I have a demo disc with the House of Flying Daggers scene were the girl is slamming on the drums.:D lol watch as close to reference level as you can. It so amazing. lol it pretty much makes most things sound good. It's so clean/tight and can get loud. Go through your favorite albums. Try near field placement too.:cool: I still have a big stupid grin on my face:D

Amazing isn't it?
Place the MBM behind your sitting position, or next to your sitting position as an endtable. And place your true sub on the front left side of your room for the most powerful lows and mid bass imaginable!

Best $500 I have ever spent!:D

thsmith

06-29-08, 08:49 AM

If you have a Blu-ray player, just about anything sounds great. Try Cloverfield on BD, or War of the Worlds on SD.

Hot Fuzz

weverb

06-29-08, 11:16 AM

Guys,
Just ordered a MBM-12...should be hear Wed...just wondering if any of you have suggestions for demo material that shows off the MBM-12 (besides Open Range) Thanks, Bill

U571
Finding Nemo
Mr. Brooks
Master & Commander
Man On Fire

Music:
Eagles - Hell Freezes Over

BluLover

06-29-08, 12:39 PM

The very best BD audio tracks are:

30 Days of Night
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
300
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
AC/DC: Live at Donington
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
Assembly (UK Import)
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
Beowulf: Director's Cut (UK Import)
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
Big Fish
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
Black Hawk Down
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
Blade Runner (Complete Collector's Ed.)
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
Blade Runner (Ultimate Collector's Ed.)
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
Blood Diamond
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
Cars
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
Cast Away
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
Celine Dion: A New Day... Live in Las Vegas
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
Chicago
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
Chris Botti Live with Orchestra and Special Guests
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
The Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, the Witch & the Wardrobe
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
Cloverfield
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
Crank
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
Dave Matthews and Tim Reynolds: Live at Radio City
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
Elton 60 - Live at Madison Square Garden
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
The Day After Tomorrow
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
Face/Off (UK Import)
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
Ghost Rider
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
Hairspray (2007)
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
I Am Legend
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
I, Robot
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
Immortal Beloved
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
Incubus: Alive at Red Rocks
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
Initial D
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
Layer Cake
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
Legends of Jazz Showcase
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
Letters from Iwo Jima
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
Live Free or Die Hard
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
Mr. & Mrs. Smith
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
Nine Inch Nails Live: Beside You in Time
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
Pearl Harbor
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
The Orphanage
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
Pan's Labyrinth
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
Pirates of the Caribbean: Curse of the Black Pearl
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
The Patriot (Extended Cut)
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
Planet of the Apes (2001)
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
Rambo
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
Ratatouille
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
Rush Hour 3
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
SOS! Tokyo Metro Explorers: The Next
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
Spider-Man 3
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
Spider-Man: The High-Definition Trilogy
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
Stealth
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
Stomp the Yard
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
Surf's Up
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
Underworld
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
War
Audio Grade: 5 STARS
Where the Light Is: John Mayer Live in Concert
Audio Grade: 5 STARS

Archbushman

06-29-08, 08:13 PM

Guys,
Thanks for all the suggestions...all those movies have great bass...I was looking for ones that excel in the 50-80or90hz range...I guess I'll be rewatching a bunch of movies... Bill

bsoko2

06-29-08, 09:04 PM

Guys,
Thanks for all the suggestions...all those movies have great bass...I was looking for ones that excel in the 50-80or90hz range...I guess I'll be rewatching a bunch of movies... Bill

It does become addictive!:D

Bill

WaveyD4vey

06-29-08, 11:32 PM

weverb

06-30-08, 02:53 PM

i set the crossover to 100hz on my MBM and ive noticed that is it EXTREMELY localizable at certain lower volumes...was hoping for a giant increase in wow factor like some had said they got but the higher the crossover the more i notice where the sub is at in my room...oh well...80hz worked just great anyhow!

I noticed the same thing with mine. There was more bass, but easier to localize. I think the higher crossover setting is more for set-ups where the MBM (usually 2 or more) is located next to the main speakers.

BluLover

07-04-08, 03:08 PM

I noticed the same thing with mine. There was more bass, but easier to localize. I think the higher crossover setting is more for set-ups where the MBM (usually 2 or more) is located next to the main speakers.

Correcto.
The higher settings are indeed for use with dual MBMs. 80Hzor less ir recommended to avoid localization.

thsmith

07-15-08, 07:37 AM

I currently have 1 MBM and 1 VTF3-MK3 and to balance them I send test tone from AVR turning one sub off, measure active sub then turn it off and turn on the other to balance SPL and once both are turned on I lower or raise the SW channel level on the AVR to match the SPL of my mains, center and rears.

I am about to receive a second MBM and wanted opionons on how to balance the 2 MBM and 3 3.

Here is what I plan to do.

Turn off true sub and balance the gain on both MBMs (turn 1 off, measure, turn 1 back on and repeat with 2nd MBM). Then match the True sub to the SPL of the 2 MBMs on and with all 3 turned on lower or raise the SW channel level on the AVR to match the SPL of my mains, center and rears.

Thoughts?

King_David

07-15-08, 01:31 PM

thsmith

07-15-08, 03:48 PM

You need to PM bsoko2.

Great suggestion, I will give him a couple of days to pop in and answer otherwise I will PM him.

Thanks,

bsoko2

07-15-08, 03:52 PM

thsmith

07-15-08, 04:22 PM

Thanks Bill !

I figured you might be spending a lot of time in the DIY forum lately and would give you some time to look at the MBM thread.

You seem to be the resident dual MBM owner expert these days, and for good reason.

Yes, this is the correct way to do it. Then play some bass and see if your ears like it, then adjust by the AVR sub tone control.

Bill

bsoko2

07-16-08, 10:54 AM

Yes, this is the correct way to do it. Then play some bass and see if your ears like it, then adjust by the AVR sub tone control.

Bill

One correction to add: watch the crossover between the true sub/subs and the MBM's. I found that my true sub crossover had to be set at 45hz in order to get rid of some horrible reverb from the bass at 50hz due to subs adding TOO much mid. So always set your crossover to suit yourself. I used the HDDVD movie "Miami Vice" and the first scene where the boats are entering the harbor. Ths bass quitar riff tells the story if the crossover is right for you. It took me 6 hours of experimenting to finally get it right with 2 MBM's, 2 3.3's, and 1 15" Dayton sub. When you get it right, the audio from your system will be awesome!

Bill

thsmith

07-16-08, 11:32 AM

Kewl, thanks and I will watch for that. More subs, more choices to try and manage.

thsmith

07-17-08, 08:39 AM

One correction to add: watch the crossover between the true sub/subs and the MBM's. I found that my true sub crossover had to be set at 45hz in order to get rid of some horrible reverb from the bass at 50hz due to subs adding TOO much mid. So always set your crossover to suit yourself. I used the HDDVD movie "Miami Vice" and the first scene where the boats are entering the harbor. Ths bass quitar riff tells the story if the crossover is right for you. It took me 6 hours of experimenting to finally get it right with 2 MBM's, 2 3.3's, and 1 15" Dayton sub. When you get it right, the audio from your system will be awesome!

Bill

I made 2 changes to the 3 3 (behind LP) last night that made a huge difference, like you I lowered the 3 3 xo to 45hz and set the phase to 180.

With MBM next to front left main and 3 3 behind LP with AVR xo set to 110hz this is the best my system has sounded so far.

Can't wait to add the second MBM to the right main tonight provided it arrives.

bsoko2

07-17-08, 11:05 AM

I made 2 changes to the 3 3 (behind LP) last night that made a huge difference, like you I lowered the 3 3 xo to 45hz and set the phase to 180.

With MBM next to front left main and 3 3 behind LP with AVR xo set to 110hz this is the best my system has sounded so far.

Can't wait to add the second MBM to the right main tonight provided it arrives.

Good! This is something I feel that they should have put in the instructions about the 45 hz crossover instead of 50 hz. If you look at the MBM chart http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests/5760-hsu-mbm-12-a.html at 45hz and compare to the 3.3 MO chart http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests/5762-hsu-vtf-3-mk3-maximum-output.html you see that they crossover at about 45hz and that is the best place for it.

Bill

thsmith

07-17-08, 01:11 PM

Bill, I take your word on the charts, I just know it sounds best and thank you for the suggestion. I was thinking in the wrong direction that if the MBMs are up front with a higher AVR xo that I should be able to raise the 3 3 xo to say 60 or 70 but that did not provide the desired result. 45hz seems to do the trick.

I am suprised how well the one MBM sounds upfront, it is near a corner and under the lowest slope of the ceiling. The second MBM will not be so lucky, not as close to a corner and under the highest slope of the ceiling.

Should know more in the next 6 hours provided it arrives as Fedex states.

Again, Thank you for the suggestions

King_David

07-18-08, 07:21 PM

Good! This is something I feel that they should have put in the instructions about the 45 hz crossover instead of 50 hz. If you look at the MBM chart http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests/5760-hsu-mbm-12-a.html at 45hz and compare to the 3.3 MO chart http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests/5762-hsu-vtf-3-mk3-maximum-output.html you see that they crossover at about 45hz and that is the best place for it.

Bill

So you are saying that the MBM sounds better, or has better output set to 45Hz instead of 50Hz?

bsoko2

07-18-08, 07:31 PM

So you are saying that the MBM sounds better, or has better output set to 45Hz instead of 50Hz?

For me it sounds better and the output is cleaner. No distortion due to too much bass at 45 - 50 hz. This is why everybody needs to play with the crossover between the true sub and the MBM for a cleaner sound and not just set it at 50hz as the instructions say.

Bill

bsoko2

07-18-08, 07:32 PM

bori

07-18-08, 07:56 PM

I have a question regarding the spiked feet that come with the MBM-12. HSU also supplied rubber feet for hardwood floors. I took the spiked feet off and just put the rubber feet on the MBM. Is this ok or should I keep the spiked feet on and just place the rubber feet underneath the spike ones?

Kevin12586

07-19-08, 01:09 PM

I re-ran REW last night on just my MBM and mine begins to roll off at about 55Hz in my room, so I increased the xover on my HO's to 55Hz from 50Hz.

The weird thing is even with my xover at 55Hz on my HO's I don't get real roll off until about 80Hz. I also had to play with the level of my MBM, it was apparantly 6db higher than my HO's so when I ran REW and set the level at 75db on my spl meter the HO's were coming in at 6db lower than the MBM across their FR. I had good output to about 55Hz then a big drop from 55hz to about 20hz then it leveled off until 14Hz.

After testing for about 1 hour I was finally able to get everybody playing nice together :)

thsmith

07-19-08, 08:59 PM

I am talking about the sub crossover and not the LFE crossover at the reciever.

Bill

Me too, but in the end 45hz is best in the end as you mentioned. I tried 40, 50,55,60,65 and 70 as well on the 3 3.

thsmith

07-21-08, 07:08 AM

Here is a graph of my room with the MBMs upfront and the 3 3 behind listening position. I do not have REW just a SPL meter and the HSU freq CD.

NO external eq or wall treatments (LRHT).

Kevin12586

07-21-08, 07:34 AM

Are you level matched to 75 or 85db?

NIce graph by the way :cool:

thsmith

07-21-08, 10:10 AM

Are you level matched to 75 or 85db?

NIce graph by the way :cool:

more like 80db

Kevin12586

07-21-08, 12:08 PM

Cool, especially since you aren't using any EQ or treatment

King_David

07-29-08, 09:36 PM

I am talking about the sub crossover and not the LFE crossover at the reciever.

Bill
I have a question:

I have both the VTF-3 MK3 and an MBM-12 in my living room. When I read your advice to set the true sub to 45HZ instead of 50HZ, I took it. I also moved my 3.3 from behind the sofa where it was with the MBM, and placed it in the right front corner of the room, firing into the wall.

Since doing this, it seems as if the output of my subs have DOUBLED overnight. My question is: Now my true sub has been popping during really strongLFE scenes...what is the cause of this???

Settings: Onkyo AV reciever XOed at 80HZ.
3.3: XOed at 45HZ
MBM: to 150HZ

cschang

07-29-08, 10:01 PM

may be bottoming the sub....have you calibrated the output?

King_David

07-29-08, 11:55 PM

may be bottoming the sub....have you calibrated the output?

How do you do that?

thsmith

07-30-08, 11:11 AM

How do you do that?

Setup RS meter in your listening position at ear height(I use a tripod), turn on AVR test tone.
Turn up volume on AVR until your meter is reading 70 or 80 db (depending on which you choose you want to be at 0 on the meter as it more acurate). Then step through each speaker including sub changing line level db up or down until each speaker is at the test tone db level you are using.

Start with sub gain being at 9:00 or 10:00 oclock. In the end I try to achieve speaker balance with the sub line level being at about -5db so you may have to lower or raise the sub gain to achieve this.

Now you are ready to plot your bass room responsiveness. I use the poor man simple man approach. Radio Shack analog SPL meter, Excel with Radio Shack compensation built in and the HSU frequency CD.

There are much more sophisticated approachs like REW, SMS-1 and others.

Radio Shack Compensation spread sheets are on the AVS forum under the subwoofer forum.

If you can not find one let me know in PM and I will send you mine.

By no means the most accurate approach but good enough for me.

I may go to REW sometime in the future but with 4 months of doing this I am very happy with the results so far.

bsoko2

07-30-08, 03:46 PM

Here is a site done by DrPainMD for setting up a home theater. It covers just about everything you would want to know: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=824554.

Bill

union1411

08-12-08, 09:39 AM

weverb

08-12-08, 09:53 AM

union1411

08-12-08, 09:57 AM

it's $1k total for 3 towers (each with dual 8 inch woofers; the Beta 50s), but thanks for the post. i'll give the mbm-12 a try. i should doing some measurements with REW but i've been lazy. definitely will try the mbm-12, esp since it has 30 day money back. thanks.

thsmith

08-12-08, 09:58 AM

hi all.

i'm not getting much midbass from my infinity beta 6.5 inch bookshelf speakers. shocking i know.

would i be better off buying three towers for LCR (i've heard them and they seem good for midbass) for almost $1k total or buying the mbm-12 for $500?

room is small. about 120 sq feet but it's only for HT

I not heard the the towers you reference but I have Polk RTi8s and before I received my second MBM I ran one upfront and the true sub behind LP. It was a huge improvement in mid-bass, adding the second made it insane and I have over 4200cf in my room.

I did not like the MBM behind LP, too localized and could not feel the deep bass with true sub upfront.

Settings now are AVR xo at 120hz, MBMs xo set to out and true sub xo set to 60 hz(sometimes set it to 45hz, depends on what I am listening to)

I would think 1 MBM in your room would give you the mid-bass you desire. If you do not like it I am sure you will have no problem selling it. I know a guy chomping at the bit to buy a used one but if one does not come along soon he will most likely buy a new one.

union1411

08-12-08, 10:11 AM

thanks. what does LP mean? where do you have your MBMs located now?

weverb

08-12-08, 10:19 AM

what does LP mean?

LP = Listening Position

thsmith

08-12-08, 12:02 PM

thanks. what does LP mean? where do you have your MBMs located now?

sweetspot aka Listening Position. I have 1 MBM up front with each main.

rossandwendy

08-12-08, 04:11 PM

Been reading and thinking about this unit for more than a year, and finally gave in late last night and placed the order. Just as HSU says, in my room I find the best sub placement for deep bass is the left front corner but this has proven to not be the best for the 'slam' region from 40-80hz. I think having a midbass module with separate level control is going to be the solution to getting the 'punch' I'm craving.

I'll try the MBM-12 centered between my mains about 7ft from the listening position which will keep it pretty close to time alignment with the sub and speakers and will allow experimentation with a higher crossover, and will also try it directly behind my listening chair with an 80hz crossover since this is how the Dr. had it set up at the shows that have elicted rave reviews.

I mentioned in the order notes the returning customer discount on the MBM-12 (purchased dual VTF-3.3's and Turbos in 2006/07) that I've read about in the forums, hope that is still going on :)

Cheers,
Ross

King_David

08-12-08, 06:09 PM

ribbit

08-12-08, 06:16 PM

rossandwendy,
what are your mains subs now?

union1411

08-12-08, 06:58 PM

anyone running the mbm and buttkickers? i'm wondering if one will make the other somewhat redundant.

also, how would i wire the mbm and buttkickers from the receiver's LFE out? Y splitter to another Y splitter?

rossandwendy

08-12-08, 07:09 PM

rossandwendy,
what are your mains subs now?

Currently running a Conquest and really liking it, but still have dual PB13's here and may try those with the MBM also.

Cheers,
Ross

ribbit

08-12-08, 07:16 PM

Currently running a Conquest and really liking it, but still have dual PB13's here and may try those with the MBM also.

Cheers,
Ross

thanks, please keep us up to date on how the MBM affects your listening. like you, i'm looking for that "punch" :)

John H

08-12-08, 09:22 PM

My duel MBM-12's are scheduled to be delivered tomorrow. I will be trying them out with my current pair of HGS-18's. According to the shipping company my Conquests have an estimated delivery of the 18th.

First I will be trying them out placed up front with my mains since I am using Buttkickers for the seating.

I have the tactile transducers fed from one of the 2 auxilliary programmable channels of a Parasound C2. The channels can be fed a user-selectable mix of signals from the other 7.1 channels. Each has independently adjustable duel high-pass and duel low-pass filters in 5 Hz increments, delay, gain and provision for deriving content from any or all of the other eight channels, mixed in any proportion and configuration in or out of phase.
The TT's are receiving signals from all channels lowpassed at 20 Hz with an independent delay from my subwoofers..

I am thinking about using the 2nd programmable channel to feed the MBM's. This will give me a considerable amount of flexibility.

John

rossandwendy

08-12-08, 11:26 PM

rossandwendy

08-12-08, 11:30 PM

thanks, please keep us up to date on how the MBM affects your listening. like you, i'm looking for that "punch" :)

Will do. It's interesting to me that even with really good subs such as the Ultra and Conquest, there is still a desire for more of that chest-pounding slamming midbass...I think that is a key aspect in an HT system that has truly high impact, more important for sure than the sub-20hz stuff IMO. I hope the MBM12 can provide this...

Cheers,
Ross

John H

08-13-08, 06:21 PM

My duel MBM's arrived this afternoon and I positioned them up front with my mains. One just inside each main. I am currently using them with a pair of Velodyne HGS-18's. Duel Conquests are scheduled for delivery on the 18th.

Connection configuration - Processors Sub Out --> Anti-Mode 8033B --> MBM-12's/HGS18's

I began the setup process with the crossovers in both MBM-12's and both HGS-18's bypassed.
Turning them on and off one at a time I set each of their gains to match using pink noise.
I engaged the lowpass crossovers on the HGS-18's at 50hz. I left the MBM-12's crossovers bypassed.
Turning them all on I then used the Anti-Mode 8033B to correct the room.
Finally I set the entire MBM-12's/HGS-18's groups combined gain to match the rest of the channels.

I haven't experimented with nearfield placement or connecting them to a programmable channel yet.

I have a very diffucult room that is basically square.
15' 8" D x 15' 11" W x 8' H Sealed
Carpet over cement, drywall, 2 walls are insulated exterior. The window well is stuffed with 3" of foam
and covered with solid panel shutters. LP is 3' from rear wall.

John

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/blonzz/MBM011.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/blonzz/MBM005.jpg

weverb

08-13-08, 06:48 PM

John, that is absolutely beautiful! :eek: I am very jealous. Have tried bypassing the 8033 to see how much it helped?

ribbit

08-13-08, 06:55 PM

very nice John!

your initial comments?

the HGS-18's you have are right smack in the corners, no space from the walls? did you ever try to move them away from the corners?

John H

08-13-08, 08:50 PM

Thanks for the compliments.

weverb,

I haven't had much time to experiment with the 8033's bypass since I added the MBM's this afternoon.

ribbit,

The HGS-18's have been up front in the corners for a few years. It use to be

The Bedroom HT (http://www.geocities.com/glassonion88)

I will definitely have to rearrange them when the Conquests arrive.

John

weverb

08-14-08, 06:28 AM

John,

Tell me more as you get to play. I am very interested in the same unit. I am still tweaking my current set-up before introducing some type of BFD. I may not need it, but still want to hear your impressions.

Thanks.

Pharcyde23

08-14-08, 09:58 AM

My duel MBM's arrived this afternoon...

What is you center channel sitting on? I have a DT 2300 and would love to get it angled in a similar way.

King_David

08-14-08, 02:13 PM

Pharcyde23

08-14-08, 05:13 PM

What kind of mains are those? :eek:

Def Tech BPs

union1411

08-14-08, 06:51 PM

MBM has officially shipped. i feel like i'm now part of a small family of midbass freaks :) there can't be that many of us in the world.

weverb

08-14-08, 07:33 PM

MBM has officially shipped. i feel like i'm now part of a small family of midbass freaks :) there can't be that many of us in the world.

Let the addiction begin! Fortunately we have a very good support group you are joining. You will know that you have a real problem you start talking about adding a second, third,...... :D

John H

08-14-08, 08:01 PM

Def Tech BPs

Yes BP2000 TL's

What is you center channel sitting on? I have a DT 2300 and would love to get it angled in a similar way.

Lovan M2 (http://www.lovanusa.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_39&products_id=82&osCsid=d35054065466abb127897c40d703b49b)

http://www.lovanusa.com/images/L-ML2CB-1887.jpg

That's a Def Tech C/L/R 3000 on top.

John

union1411

08-15-08, 12:58 PM

so, my svs pb10 doesn't have a crossover on it. hsu mentioned that a F-Mod might work. anyone know if there are any significant downsides to that approach? i plan on upgrading to a new true sub soon, but for now it's the svs.

John H

08-17-08, 01:09 PM

I have done a little more experimenting with placement. As metioned I started out with the MBM's up front with my mains. In this position I actually heard them struggling a bit on demanding material. I listen to all my material
-7 dB below reference.

This evening I placed them nearfield directly behind the listening position. I engaged the internal lowpass at 80 hz. I used a programmable channel and was able to take advantage of a separate delay.

Then I pulled my HGS-18's out of the corners and placed them up front with my mains with the MBM's still nearfield.

Currently I am testing eveything in the rear of the room. The MBM-12's are still behind the listening position lowpassed at 80 hz and the HGS-18's are on each side lowpassed at 55 Hz.

Each time something was moved I matched the 4 subwoofers gain levels and re-ran the anti-mode 8033B room correction. Then recalibrated subwoofer levels to match the system.

I still need to do some more experimentation. I do like this last configuration the best. Even in the first configuration it did smooth out the bass in the room. No more localization issues I was experiencing.

This leaves the front corners open for the Conquests when they arrive early this week. Due to their size it might be the only place for them.

I plan on removing that recliner platform and staining it Bombay Mahogany.

John

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/blonzz/HGS18MBM010.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/blonzz/HGS18MBM015.jpg

bsoko2

08-17-08, 03:28 PM

John, cool setup! Mine's in the living room so no chance of setting up for the best room acoustics.

Bill

Pharcyde23

08-17-08, 05:35 PM

Lovan M2 (http://www.lovanusa.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_39&products_id=82&osCsid=d35054065466abb127897c40d703b49b)

That's a Def Tech C/L/R 3000 on top.

John

Thanks!

Pete_Hsu

08-18-08, 02:20 PM

John H

08-18-08, 02:29 PM

John, try putting the MBM-12's sideways directly behind the listening position, with amps back to back (maybe 1 or 2 inches of space in between the amps). Depending on the construction of the couch, sometimes people prefer not having the port fire directly into the couch.

Pete,

Will give that a try. How much space between MBM's ports and HGS-18's sides?

John

bsoko2

08-18-08, 04:28 PM

John, try putting the MBM-12's sideways directly behind the listening position, with amps back to back (maybe 1 or 2 inches of space in between the amps). Depending on the construction of the couch, sometimes people prefer not having the port fire directly into the couch.

Yeh, but having them firing into the back of the couch is like having a butt kicker. I like to feel the bass!

Bill

King_David

08-18-08, 06:12 PM

Yeh, but having them firing into the back of the couch is like having a butt kicker. I like to feel the bass!

Bill

How do you run Audessy if you have 2 subs----one VTF-3.3 in the front corner, and one MBM behind the sofa?

Do you do it one sub at a time? And if so how?

bsoko2

08-18-08, 06:20 PM

How do you run Audessy if you have 2 subs----one VTF-3.3 in the front corner, and one MBM behind the sofa?

Do you do it one sub at a time? And if so how?

Once your subs are set up then run your reciever EQ program.
After Audessy is run, then check your subs db and retune to your taste.

Bill

Pete_Hsu

08-18-08, 08:28 PM

Hi John,

Pete,

Will give that a try. How much space between MBM's ports and HGS-18's sides?

John

You probably don't need more than 3-4" of space in between the MBM ports and the Velodynes.

It's ok to have the MBM-12 oriented with ports firing into the couch (and a little spacing in between), or even oriented 180 degrees where the port fires directly away from the couch. I usually recommend that people experiment with the orientation.

The couch we have in our demo room has some mechanical parts in it, so I find it a little distracting to have the MBM port fire into the couch. But with other couches it may not pose an issue. So I suppose it is best to try out some different configs!

Sincerely,

Pete_Hsu

08-18-08, 08:29 PM

Yeh, but having them firing into the back of the couch is like having a butt kicker. I like to feel the bass!

Bill

That is definitely true Bill!

John H

08-18-08, 09:57 PM

That is definitely true Bill!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/blonzz/ButtKickerII006.jpg

John

bsoko2

08-19-08, 12:00 AM

John - want to add a little more mid bass for those explosions and gun shots, helicopter blades rotating, etc. change the xover on the true sub to around 55-60hz. It does bring up the mid bass and ads to the depth of it.

Bill

bori

08-19-08, 12:05 AM

If I decide to change the crossover do I need to recalibrate the subs and run audyessy again?:(

jdeanmc

08-19-08, 10:54 AM

Hey Peter or whomever may help.
I just added a mbm12 to my Vtf ho w turbo.
Now i need to get everything setup to tear the house down.:)
I have only gotten my ho setup to where i was happy with it about a week ago as per Dr hsu's emails,the main thing we changed was putting the ho into a little "under the stairs"utility room in the front right corner of my room,by doing this i got to drop the ho gain from about 2 oclock to 11 o clock with still more low end.
Well now ive added the mbm behind the couch and recalibrated and messed up everything ,so here i go again.
Ive got the ho xover switched to "in"set at 50 hz,the mbm xover switched to "in set at 100 hz and the receiver xover set at 100 hz.
I set the volumes with the subs gain at about 11 oclock on both,using your spreadsheet i found online and the radio shack spl ,the subs checked one at a time then together.subs are set at about 85-89db compared to 75db on all other speakers.
One question,when setting the speaker volumes(fronts ,center ,etc)ive always just went to the front left for example then turned up the receiver volume until speaker is at75 db,then set everything else to match.
Then im at approx.-20 to -30 (volume on receiver)when watching movies.
Speakers are set at approx.+5 to +8 db to acheive 75db.
If i were to turn the receiver volume to say zero and then calibrate all speakers to 75 db (this im sure would have me setting speakers in the -10 to 20 db range)would this make any difference in the overall "blending of speakers and subs?"
Sorry for the long post but im back to serching for the "chest thump" i want from the mbm.I do now have the "shake the house" lowend that Dr hsu helped me find a couple of weeks ago.
Thanks
Dean
Ive included a rather cheesy if not less than impressive diagram of my ht room.Overall dimension of room is 23x 23 plus utility room and stairwell,8 foot ceiling.
This room is a basement room on slab foundation with concrete block walls covered in tonque in groove pine,no drywall,no windows,drapes or wall hangings,i know i need to do the room treatment,bass trap thing but im not there yet.My lack of "bass slam"is do im sure to the room not equipment but is there anything you see that you would suggest changing?
Thanks
Dean

John H

08-20-08, 10:32 PM

I picked up some 2.10" brass spikes to replace the MBM-12's plastic tapered feet. I haven't installed them yet.

John

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/blonzz/SPIKES010.jpg

Pete_Hsu

08-21-08, 01:42 AM

Pete_Hsu

08-21-08, 01:43 AM

I picked up some 2.10" brass spikes to replace the MBM-12's plastic tapered feet. I haven't installed them yet.

John

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/blonzz/SPIKES010.jpg

John, those things look wicked! Wow...

How is everything sounding now with your new config?

John H

08-21-08, 02:45 AM

John, those things look wicked! Wow...

How is everything sounding now with your new config?

Pete,

I just finished testing the Conquests. I started with both colocated in the front left corner of the room. I now have one positioned in each front corner. I am now going to integrate the MBM-12's back into the system. I will position them were I have my HGS-18's now. One just to each side of the recliner. I have some room treatments coming from GIK Acoustics. One is their Monster Bass Trap that will go behind the LP on a stand.

John

thsmith

08-21-08, 07:52 AM

John H

08-21-08, 08:15 AM

Where did you find these ?

2.10" Brass Floor Cones / Speaker Spikes (http://www.oregondv.com/2150spikecbgt.htm)

M6 thread size for the MBM-12

The stud is not as deep as the one on the factory legs but thread in a few turns.

John

jdeanmc

08-21-08, 08:23 AM

jd, you should set the MBM-12 crossover switch to 'Out' to bypass the MBM's crossover and make use of the bass management features on your receiver (including crossover, distance, and level). Set the sub crossover on the receiver to ~ 80Hz, and set the sub distance equal to the distance between your listening position and the MBM.

Sincerely,
Oh OK.
But i still want the ho xover set to "in" correct?
If both subs are connected with a y cable to the receiver,the ho xover in and at 50hz and the rec set at 80hz are the ho and mbm not both playing at 50hz down?how is the mbm getting cut off at 50 hz?
Sorry for the ignorance.
Dean

bsoko2

08-21-08, 11:05 AM

2.10" Brass Floor Cones / Speaker Spikes (http://www.oregondv.com/2150spikecbgt.htm)

M6 thread size for the MBM-12

The stud is not as deep as the one on the factory legs but thread in a few turns.

John

Parts Express has a set of 4 speaker adjustable spikes for $20 in gold or black chrome.

Bill

bsoko2

08-21-08, 11:07 AM

John H

08-21-08, 11:39 AM

Parts Express has a set of 4 speaker adjustable spikes for $20 in gold or black chrome.

Bill

Bill,

They are only 1-1/2" tall. The feet on the MBM-12 are 2". That might make a difference since it is down firing. I couldn't see any reference to the thread size. It is most likely standard 1/4-20 not the required M6.

John

rossandwendy

08-21-08, 11:42 AM

Oh OK.
But i still want the ho xover set to "in" correct?
If both subs are connected with a y cable to the receiver,the ho xover in and at 50hz and the rec set at 80hz are the ho and mbm not both playing at 50hz down?how is the mbm getting cut off at 50 hz?
Sorry for the ignorance.
Dean

Yes, you want the HO crossover switched in and set to roughly 50hz, but you can experiment with both the crossover setting and the phase on the HO to create the smoothest transition to the MBM-12 in your room/system.

The MBM-12 has a built-in filter to roll off the frequencies below 50hz.

Cheers,
Ross

a3plew

08-21-08, 12:10 PM

Yes, you want the HO crossover switched in and set to roughly 50hz, but you can experiment with both the crossover setting and the phase on the HO to create the smoothest transition to the MBM-12 in your room/system.

The MBM-12 has a built-in filter to roll off the frequencies below 50hz.

Cheers,
Ross

Yup. lol :eek: Using my radioshack spl meter and some test tones from the diy calibration disc. I found out my mbm-12 is very strong to 30 hz behind the listening position. With a dip at 50-55hz.:( I think i'm going to have to get something to roll it off more lol. With the test tone between 93db and 95db from 60hz to 80 hz its so flat with only the mbm-12 on. But I also get 93 db at around 40 hz and 45hz:eek:.

rossandwendy

08-21-08, 12:20 PM

Yup. lol :eek: Using my radioshack spl meter and some test tones from the diy calibration disc. I found out my mbm-12 is very strong to 30 hz behind the listening position. With a dip at 50-55hz.:( I think i'm going to have to get something to roll it off more lol. With the test tone between 93db and 95db from 60hz to 80 hz its so flat with only the mbm-12 on. But I also get 93 db at around 40 hz and 45hz:eek:.

Was your measuring done with only the MBM-12 playing, true sub and mains off? If so you are getting some tough room issues in that placement.

When setting up mine behind the listening seat I varied the receiver's sub distance setting (which acts as a phase control) in 1/2ft incrememts unti I got the best midbass response and smothest transition to the mains crossed at 80hz, then I turned on the true sub and used its continuously variable phase control to match the transition at the low end. All this was made easier by watching the real-time changes on my tv from the SMS-1 graph.

Cheers,
Ross

weverb

08-21-08, 12:41 PM

Pete_Hsu

08-21-08, 12:46 PM

Oh OK.
But i still want the ho xover set to "in" correct?
If both subs are connected with a y cable to the receiver,the ho xover in and at 50hz and the rec set at 80hz are the ho and mbm not both playing at 50hz down?how is the mbm getting cut off at 50 hz?
Sorry for the ignorance.
Dean

Yup, that's right jd, set the HO crossover switch to 'In', and the crossover knob on that sub somewhere in the 45-50Hz region. Note that the MBM-12 rolls off naturally below 50Hz (combination of port tuning and subsonic filtering), so you don't need to do anything to cut off the lower frequencies from the module.

a3plew

08-21-08, 12:54 PM

Was your measuring done with only the MBM-12 playing, true sub and mains off? If so you are getting some tough room issues in that placement.

When setting up mine behind the listening seat I varied the receiver's sub distance setting (which acts as a phase control) in 1/2ft incrememts unti I got the best midbass response and smothest transition to the mains crossed at 80hz, then I turned on the true sub and used its continuously variable phase control to match the transition at the low end. All this was made easier by watching the real-time changes on my tv from the SMS-1 graph.

Cheers,
Ross

That is with everything off and only the mbm-12 on. Is the Sms-1 that $600 eq with a mic? Everything is pretty flat except i have a dip around 50-60hz.:(
I have no room treatments either. I think Ima save up for some bass traps or something.:D Will bass traps help with a dip around 50-60hz and a peak at 40-45 hz?

a3plew

08-21-08, 12:57 PM

Don't feel so bad. Here is what I am getting from my MBM. My main sub xo is set to 30Hz and I am still getting a spike at 50Hz. The MBM is nearfield on the right side of my couch.

How do you make graphs on the computer. I have done them manually on some notebook paper.:D Will excel work? I also have rew but have no clue how to use it, and my sound card and inputs don't work since i have vista now.:o

weverb

08-21-08, 12:59 PM

How do you make graphs on the computer. I have done them manually on some notebook paper.:D Will excel work? I also have rew but have no clue how to use it, and my sound card and inputs don't work since i have vista now.:o

Mine was just done in Excel. I am waiting for some cables to be able to use REW. Excel is quick and easy.

union1411

08-21-08, 09:50 PM

still tweaking with the mbm-12 i just received. i crossed over my true sub at 50 hz with a FMOD and my receiver crossover is at 120 hz for now. haven't really done any calibration yet. i have a pretty good room acoustically but might need to redo a REW measurement since i replaced my furniture in the room (i used to have a huge swedish foam bed in there and now it's gone).

anyways (i ramble too much) . . . i love this sub. it's like having a buttkicker and more for midbass. gunshots, etc. pulsate my booty :) the whole chair shakes. and . . . this is what i am really starting to appreciate . . . my true sub sounds (or seems to sound) much better now that it only plays below 50 hz. gonna read the long post about calibration now.

i am one happy puppy right now. and i'm not the fanboy type. if i don't like something or don't think it has price/performance ratio, i'll say it. but this thing so far is great (even tho the first night i wasn't blown away by it but that was before i got the fmod)

bsoko2

08-21-08, 10:52 PM

union1411

08-21-08, 11:27 PM

no internal xo (svs pb10)

John H

08-23-08, 08:11 AM

I moved my MBM-12's back up front with my mains and put the Velodynes in the bedroom. This seems to be the placement where they sound the best. I have the Conquests lowpass filters engaged at 50 Hz. The MBM's filters are bypassed. I ran all 4 through a Paradigm X-30 active subwoofer control. This gives me a simultaneous volume gain. Once the MBM's/Conquests levels were matched they were set to the same output as the main channels.
I use an anti-mode 8033 on the four and an 80 Hz lowpass in my controller.

I put my Audio Control Phase Coupled Activator in the system to blend in some subharmonics for fun. It generates 15-30 Hz subharmonics from a 30-70Hz sampling range. Once the subharmonics are added I dial the volume level back down to match the mains. I can switch it in or out of the system when wanted.

John - want to add a little more mid bass for those explosions and gun shots, helicopter blades rotating, etc. change the xover on the true sub to around 55-60hz. It does bring up the mid bass and ads to the depth of it.

Bill

Bill,

I will give that a try.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/blonzz/CONQUESTHT029.jpg

John

ribbit

08-23-08, 08:36 AM

that's one neat setup man. mine's a mess. :)

weverb

08-23-08, 08:55 AM

John,

Did you use more than one 8033 for the subs? If I remember correctly, you said you purchased a few.

John H

08-23-08, 09:09 AM

that's one neat setup man. mine's a mess. :)

Thanks Mike,

I believed you asked if I thought my original ButtKicker setup was needed once I replaced my dual HGS-18's with the dual Conquests. The answer is yes "in my case". My Buttkickers add something the Conquests do not.

John

John H

08-23-08, 02:16 PM

I understand how to calibrate the MBM/True Sub using this method.

http://forum.hsuresearch.com/showpost.php?p=33939&postcount=33

What about using the test CD that came with the MBM-12? Does that provide more of a fine tune? I would like to experiemnt with this method but need some clarification of the test proceedure. I split it up into 3 steps.

I asssume this is done with the lowpass implemented at 50 Hz on the True subwoofer and bypassed on the MBM. Are main speakers set to small and the standard 80 Hz lowpass used in the controller for this test?

"1) The test CD provided with the MBM-12 has warble tones from 16 Hz up to 200 Hz. Used with a Radio Shack SPL meter, you can fine
tune your system. Use C weighting and slow mode. The meter is down 12 dB at 16 Hz, 7 dB at 20 Hz, 4 dB at 25 Hz, and 2 dB at 31.5
Hz. Add these figures to your meter’s readout to get true SPL.

2) Place the SPL meter at the listening chair and play the 63 Hz track. Adjust
for 75 dB reading on the SPL meter. Play the tones from the lower limit of your true subwoofer up to 200 Hz and write down the SPL numbers for each frequency. Add the corrections to the appropriate measured results.

3) Take the average of the numbers handled by each
of the system – true sub, MBM, and the main speakers. If the subwoofer’s average is 5 dB higher than the main speakers, adjust the subwoofer
down by 5 dB (you do this by playing a 40 Hz tone, not the SPL reading, and then adjust the volume on the subwoofer to get the
meter to read 5 dB less)."

During step 2 is everything off except the true subwoofer?

During step 3 are you taking measurments of the True Subwoofer, MBM and Main speakers separately?

If needed you only adjust the level of True Subwoofer using a 40 Hz tone. You never touch the level of the MBM-12 module once it is set prior to fine tuning the system using the test CD?

Thank you,
John

John H

08-23-08, 02:24 PM

John,

Did you use more than one 8033 for the subs? If I remember correctly, you said you purchased a few.

weverb,

I am only using one 8033 on the duel MBM-12/Duel Conquests.

I did try to use individual 8033's on the built in powered subwoofer sections of my three front main channel speakers. And then try a 40 Hz lowpass in my controller. I currently do not have them connected and am using a 80 Hz lowpass.

John

weverb

08-23-08, 02:41 PM

weverb,

I am only using one 8033 on the duel MBM-12/Duel Conquests.

I did try to use individual 8033's on the built in powered subwoofer sections of my three front main channel speakers. And then try a 40 Hz lowpass in my controller. I currently do not have them connected and am using a 80 Hz lowpass.

John

Any plans for those extra 8033's? :D

n2siast

08-23-08, 02:58 PM

I'll take one 8033 as well.:D

union1411

08-23-08, 03:53 PM

watched a few blurays with lossless audio with teh MBM-12.

i am floored. cloverfield and die hard 4 for example: wow. the midbass is just awesome. the entire lfe situation in my room now feels like it's improved a gazzilion %. trucks go by and my seat vibrates. machine guns: i can feel, not just hear, them. absolutely awesome.

mbm-12 is behind my seat facing sideways. receiver crossover at 90 hz. still haven't really calibrated my subs yet.

a3plew

08-24-08, 03:39 PM

Alright last day of vacation before I start class. I got my spl meter and used the d.i.y calibration disc to setup up my system as best as I could.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=742969

Ive attached my room response graph from excel. The d.i.y calibration disc has manual test tones from 1hzto120hz for the lfe chanell recorded at -20db. For calibration each channel was set to 85db. The disc said to calibrate the sub to 95db. I calibrated my true sub with the crossover set to out and set it to 95db on the newest radioshack digital spl meter. I then turned the true sub off and set the mbm-12 to 95db. Each noise for calibration was recorded at -20db. The manual test tone was -20db also. from 16hz to 20hz it increases by 1hz. But from 25hz to 80hz it increases by 5hz.
Reference for me is 60 out of 74 on my receiver. I ran all tones at volume 54/74. I moved the sub forward about one 1 from the left corner of the room to improve the dip around 50hz . Tell me what you guys think. Would a EQ help? thank you:) oh by the way should I lower the subs a few db's? calibrate to 93 or 92 or leave them at 95db? O yeah, I have not put the corrected numbers for the spl meter. I didn't know how much to add for the digital meter.:D

-Will

Kevin12586

08-24-08, 06:06 PM

Why are you calibrating at 90+ db? You should be calibrating at 75db or a couple of db higher if you want your sub hot. Is the rest of your system calibrated that high?

a3plew

08-24-08, 06:29 PM

LOL I have a small room and listen at reference. The d.i.y test disc is -20db. so 115-20=95. lol If I use the reciever test tone its all even at 75db lol. I acutually have my sub now at 72db with the reciever test tone and 92db with the test disc so I thinks its fine. Plus 90+db is just right for me lol. Otherwise things get boring when running these tones over and over and readjusting.I dont run my sub hot. How many dbs should i set it at with the digital meter. Plus my fronts are 94db@1 watt effiecient and my rears are 90db@1watt. Room is about 15 feet long 11 feet wide and 8 feet high open to the dinning room equal in size.

a3plew

08-24-08, 06:36 PM

Everything on the d.i.y disc is -20 for calibration. so my fronts were set at 85db. my center at 85db. and my rears at 85db and the sub now is at 92db since it was -20 from reference. After calibrating I checked with the receiver test tone at the same volume and everything was 75 db but the sub was 72db.

Level trims for my fronts are even. The center is +2db and the rears are set -3db each from a scale of -10db to +10db. And the sub trim is set to -8db.

bsoko2

08-25-08, 11:14 PM

I moved my MBM-12's back up front with my mains and put the Velodynes in the bedroom. This seems to be the placement where they sound the best. I have the Conquests lowpass filters engaged at 50 Hz. The MBM's filters are bypassed. I ran all 4 through a Paradigm X-30 active subwoofer control. This gives me a simultaneous volume gain. Once the MBM's/Conquests levels were matched they were set to the same output as the main channels.
I use an anti-mode 8033 on the four and an 80 Hz lowpass in my controller.

I put my Audio Control Phase Coupled Activator in the system to blend in some subharmonics for fun. It generates 15-30 Hz subharmonics from a 30-70Hz sampling range. Once the subharmonics are added I dial the volume level back down to match the mains. I can switch it in or out of the system when wanted.

Bill,

I will give that a try.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/blonzz/CONQUESTHT029.jpg

John

John - I have an X-30 controller coming soon. I got from a guy back east for 100. My idea is to set my receiver xover at 150 and run the controller at 120. I don't think that I'll miss much bass from 12- to 150? This way I can control all the volume on the two MBM's, two 3.3's, and one Dayton 15" sub. Once that I have my volume set on all, where do I start with the volume dial on the contoller?

Bill

jwdaigle

09-01-08, 03:55 AM

RobZ

09-01-08, 08:35 AM

OK, so I am just coming up to speed with all this, so need a bit of help please.

My Current setup: Onkyo 705, Klipsch Quintet II, Hsu VTF-2. I would like my HD movies to have great effects, but also to have very clear, well defined bass in music. Yes, I want the world, and dont want to pay lots of $$$ for it :-)

I REALLY like the VTF I got (only had it for a week now), but it seems like Bass in the 75-150 range isnt what it could be. The room is probably 1500-1700 cu ft.

Im thinking my best 2 options are to either get a MBM, or to toss 2 of the Quintet speakers and get some floor standing speakers with real woofers.

So:

- What do people think is my best option?
- If I were to get an MBM, how would I connect it into my system (the onkyo has 1 and only 1 Sub out).

Is the value proposition for the MBM versus the VTF that the VTF is made for really low sound effects, whereas the MBM is more of a accuracy entity? I ask this because the VTF seems to be built to move lots of air, while the MBM seems to be "lighter on its feet".

Thanks for any suggestions, comments, opinions etc

Joe

For HT I'd go with the MBM. It really does add some mid bass punch. As far as connection goes, you can buy an RCA Y SPLITTER (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://images.monoprice.com/productmediumimages/20501.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp%3Fc_id%3D104%26cp_id%3D10401%26cs_id%3D1040107%2 6p_id%3D2050%26seq%3D1%26format%3D2&h=200&w=200&sz=10&hl=en&start=4&um=1&usg=__bkSulGMKIQaJ1QR94s_l2eqLi8g=&tbnid=mEkC4JgSfyR8nM:&tbnh=104&tbnw=104&prev=/images%3Fq%3Drca%2Bsplitter%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rls%3Dcom.m icrosoft:*:IE-SearchBox%26rlz%3D1I7GWYE%26sa%3DN) and send the signal to both subs.

John H

09-01-08, 11:12 AM

John - I have an X-30 controller coming soon. I got from a guy back east for 100. My idea is to set my receiver xover at 150 and run the controller at 120. I don't think that I'll miss much bass from 12- to 150? This way I can control all the volume on the two MBM's, two 3.3's, and one Dayton 15" sub. Once that I have my volume set on all, where do I start with the volume dial on the contoller?

Bill

Hello Bill,

I didn't catch your post. Have you received your X-30?

I have the volume control on my X-30 set at the 9:00 o'clock position and my sub output in my controller at -8. I run the X-30's lowpass fully clockwise to it's highest positon and use the crossover in the processor. Paradigm doesn't offer a bypass. I set my volume levels on all my subwoofers to match with these settings. The X-30 doesn't have an on/off switch. It is signal sensing.

John

union1411

09-01-08, 11:15 AM

For HT I'd go with the MBM. It really does add some mid bass punch.

How would you recommend he deal with the inevitable timing issue of using one sub nearfield and the other in a corner?

bsoko2

09-01-08, 01:46 PM

Hello Bill,

I didn't catch your post. Have you received your X-30?

I have the volume control on my X-30 set at the 9:00 o'clock position and my sub output in my controller at -8. I run the X-30's lowpass fully clockwise to it's highest positon and use the crossover in the processor. Paradigm doesn't offer a bypass. I set my volume levels on all my subwoofers to match with these settings. The X-30 doesn't have an on/off switch. It is signal sensing.

John

John -

X-30 comes on Tuesday.
By processor, do you mean reciever cross over?
My subs volumes are all set for reference with other speakers. On the sub cable, do I place the X-30 in after the 8033, and using your settings can I then adjust the X-30 volume up or down if needed? Or, do I have to reset all the subs volume for the X-30?

Bill

Kevin12586

09-01-08, 02:09 PM

How would you recommend he deal with the inevitable timing issue of using one sub nearfield and the other in a corner?

I just set the distance in my receiver to be the middle of both my subs and MBM. I add the distance from the sweet spot to the MBM (nearfield) to the diatance from the sweet spot to my subs (farfield) then take the average. I don't notice any timing issues.

bsoko2

09-01-08, 03:11 PM

John H

09-01-08, 03:50 PM

John -

X-30 comes on Tuesday.
By processor, do you mean reciever cross over?
My subs volumes are all set for reference with other speakers. On the sub cable, do I place the X-30 in after the 8033, and using your settings can I then adjust the X-30 volume up or down if needed? Or, do I have to reset all the subs volume for the X-30?

Bill

Bill,

Yes by processor I mean receiver or controller.

I have my X-30 before my 8033 in the signal chain.

Sub Out -> X-30 -> 8033 -> Subwoofers

Since you already have your subwoofers balanced I would just insert the X-30 into the chain with the volume level knob turned completely down counterclockwise. Crossover cutoff turned completely clockwise to it's highest setting and Phase control set to 0º. Phase control is only active through the top #1 subwoofer output on the rear of the X-30.

Turn your systems calibrating pink noise or test DVD's noise on and the power light should illuminate. Raise the volume on the X-30 slowly until your subwoofers are all set for reference with your other speakers again. Check the position of the X-30's volume control. I just like to have mine below 10:00 o'clock and the subwoofer level setting in the receiver in the negative range when everything is calibrated. Thats my preference.

John

RobZ

09-01-08, 03:50 PM

bsoko2

09-01-08, 06:59 PM

union1411

09-01-08, 07:07 PM

I just set the distance in my receiver to be the middle of both my subs and MBM. I add the distance from the sweet spot to the MBM (nearfield) to the diatance from the sweet spot to my subs (farfield) then take the average. I don't notice any timing issues.

What does this accomplish? You now have incorrect distances for two subs rather than for just one.

For example, if your true sub is 9 feet away and the MBM is 1 foot away, using your method, the receiver is told that a 30hz sound is coming from 5 feet away, when in reality it is coming from 9 feet away, and the receiver is also told that a 60hz sound is coming from 5 feet away when in reality it is coming from 1 foot away.

RobZ

09-01-08, 07:33 PM

In my setup, the sub is approx eight feet from sweet spot and the MBM is approx five so averaging is likely not as critical.

John H

09-01-08, 09:14 PM

What does this accomplish? You now have incorrect distances for two subs rather than for just one.

For example, if your true sub is 9 feet away and the MBM is 1 foot away, using your method, the receiver is told that a 30hz sound is coming from 5 feet away, when in reality it is coming from 9 feet away, and the receiver is also told that a 60hz sound is coming from 5 feet away when in reality it is coming from 1 foot away.

What does this accomplish? You now have incorrect distances for two subs rather than for just one.

For example, if your true sub is 9 feet away and the MBM is 1 foot away, using your method, the receiver is told that a 30hz sound is coming from 5 feet away, when in reality it is coming from 9 feet away, and the receiver is also told that a 60hz sound is coming from 5 feet away when in reality it is coming from 1 foot away.

The MBM-12 manual suggests if you are using the MBM-12 near-field and a subwoofer far-field without separate delay...

"...Method A. Connecting to controllers with a SUBWOOFER or LFE output
Use a Y adapter to split the signal from the sub out to feed both the true subwoofer and the MBM-12. Set the crossover frequency on the subwoofer to 50 Hz, and crossover switch to ‘in’. The MBM-12 will then reproduce the range from 50 Hz up to the crossover frequency set on your controller. Your true subwoofer will reproduce the range from 50 Hz down. Set the distance parameter on the controller for the subwoofer to the distance of the MBM-12 to you....

If averaging the distance sounds better in your room that's what I would do. Right now I have my MBM-12's up front with my mains. I am using an auxilary channel in my processor for the MBM's which allows a separate delay. I'm not sure if it's required since my MBM's/Conquests are only 4 ft apart.

John

bsoko2

09-02-08, 10:25 PM

Bill,

Yes by processor I mean receiver or controller.

I have my X-30 before my 8033 in the signal chain.

Sub Out -> X-30 -> 8033 -> Subwoofers

Since you already have your subwoofers balanced I would just insert the X-30 into the chain with the volume level knob turned completely down counterclockwise. Crossover cutoff turned completely clockwise to it's highest setting and Phase control set to 0º. Phase control is only active through the top #1 subwoofer output on the rear of the X-30.

Turn your systems calibrating pink noise or test DVD's noise on and the power light should illuminate. Raise the volume on the X-30 slowly until your subwoofers are all set for reference with your other speakers again. Check the position of the X-30's volume control. I just like to have mine below 10:00 o'clock and the subwoofer level setting in the receiver in the negative range when everything is calibrated. Thats my preference.

John

OK, installed the X-30 and surprise, it works! The unit must be a mini-amp of some kind. I checked the LFE db at the highest setting and it output at around 94 spl. My reciever is set at -7.5 db and is clear without distortion. I have set the X-30 at -34 on its volume dial, and that is about 4.5 db higher then the mains and surrounds from the reciever db. I have engaged the 15-25 lift on the 8033 and watching some movie clips tonight the bass is excellent with no distortion. War of the Worlds hit 105 db at the sweet spot. The WAF says the bass sounds good and she approves, and she said that in the past she didn't like the bass due to the high db that had to be engaged in order to reach the same level of db that I do now with the X-30 in place. Hey, its like having a whole new setup. Love it! I have plenty of head room on the subs so I don't have to worry about bottoming out due to the X-30 and the 8033 lift.

Thanx, Bill

thsmith

09-03-08, 09:02 AM

Bill, can you provide a link to more information on the X-30?

OK, installed the X-30 and surprise, it works! The unit must be a mini-amp of some kind. I checked the LFE db at the highest setting and it output at around 94 spl. My reciever is set at -7.5 db and is clear without distortion. I have set the X-30 at -34 on its volume dial, and that is about 4.5 db higher then the mains and surrounds from the reciever db. I have engaged the 15-25 lift on the 8033 and watching some movie clips tonight the bass is excellent with no distortion. War of the Worlds hit 105 db at the sweet spot. The WAF says the bass sounds good and she approves, and she said that in the past she didn't like the bass due to the high db that had to be engaged in order to reach the same level of db that I do now with the X-30 in place. Hey, its like having a whole new setup. Love it! I have plenty of head room on the subs so I don't have to worry about bottoming out due to the X-30 and the 8033 lift.

Thanx, Bill

bsoko2

09-03-08, 09:31 AM

Bill, can you provide a link to more information on the X-30?

It is no longer in production. It was made by Paradigm Speaker co. Google it and you will find some info out there about it.

Bill

union1411

09-09-08, 08:10 PM

i now understand why hsu has advocated nearfield placement of the mbm-12. my MFW-15 arrived today. i tried it alone and, imo, it has just as much output in the midbass region as does the mbm-12 (At my listening levels, which is not 115 dbs).

but here's the thing i've noticed so far, and i noticed it immediately: using the MFW-15 alone, the midbass is a but more ringy and not as tight and i think it's most likely because of my room. with the mbm-12 right behind my seat however, when i combine the two subs, the midbass is tighter with hardly any ring becasuse the room effect has pretty much been taken out of the equation when the mbm-12 is parked right behind my butt. haven't done any rew measurements yet with the new mfw-15, but probably will today or tomorrow.

Bailman

09-12-08, 01:59 PM

Bailman

09-17-08, 12:00 PM

Still no measurements?

Ryan48

09-17-08, 09:25 PM

Anyone using a SVS sub with the MBM-12? I would like to add on to my dual PB12-NSDs setup.

cyberbri

09-20-08, 01:46 PM

The benefits would be there with SVS subs, just as with HSU or any other kind of sub.

DinoT

09-20-08, 02:04 PM

Hi all,
I am looking to get advice on which to do first. Upgrade my subs, or add MBM-12's to my current system.
My dedicated HT room measures 21x14. My speakers are the Rocket RS750 (L/R) RSC200 (Center), RSS300 (Sides), RS250 (Rear). My current subwoofers are 2 Mirage BPS-400's in the front corners with the front speakers just next to them. I am not too happy with the bass output right now. Unfortunately I don't have much flexibility as to where to put the subwoofers.
My current subwoofers tend to bottom out (I think this is what is happening....a popping sound at loud passages such as explosions in a movie)
So far what I think that I want to do is to get a pair of MFW-15's to replace the BPS-400's. I am also looking at getting 1 or 2 MBM-12's to help with mid bass. I don't want to do this in one shot since I have gone nuts this year with A/V spending. (I've bought 2 - 73" DLP's, 1 - 61" DLP, 2 Pioneer Elite VSX-94TXH, 1 - Onkyo 805, 1 - Onkyo 605 and I am about to upgrade my projector to an Epson 1080UB) That doesn't include any of my DirecTV expenses (receivers and multiswitches)....suffice it to say, my normally reserved wife is starting to raise an eyebrow.
So, what recommendations do you all have? I am thinking of going with 1 MBM-12 now to see if it helps. If I feel it helps, I'd get another MBM-12. I'd then do the MFW-15's down the road. The other option is to get the MFW-15's to replace my BPS-400's and do the MBM-12's later.
Also, my placement option for the MBM-12's are limited. I can only really place them next to the current subs. Current subs are in the front corners and I'd place the MBM-12's next to them. Will they offer much in that location?

I also have another question.....would the MBM-12 help my current subs from bottoming out? Meaning that if they take some of the load (50-100Hz) and let my sub do the rest (20-50Hz) would the BPS-400's be less likely to bottom out?

Thanks,

bsoko2

09-20-08, 02:12 PM

King_David

09-25-08, 09:06 PM

I have a VTF-3 MK3 with turbo (Placed on the front wall), and an MBM-12 placed nearfield.

What settings should I set my gains on both subs?

John H

09-25-08, 09:45 PM

I have a VTF-3 MK3 with turbo (Placed on the front wall), and an MBM-12 placed nearfield.

What settings should I set my gains on both subs?

Calibration Procedure (http://forum.hsuresearch.com/showpost.php?p=33939&postcount=33)

John

bsoko2

09-25-08, 11:00 PM

Calibration Procedure (http://forum.hsuresearch.com/showpost.php?p=33939&postcount=33)

John

John, thanx for answering this guy. I was looking for the very same post. How are things going for you with the new sub setup?

Bill

John H

09-26-08, 12:54 AM

John, thanx for answering this guy. I was looking for the very same post. How are things going for you with the new sub setup?

Bill

Hello Bill,

I'm still experimenting. Right now I have the duel Conquests laid on their sides next to each other behind the listening position. Last night I moved the duel MBM-12's to the left of them.. I didn't have much time to spend with them besides getting everything calibrated and testing with the machine emerging in WOTW's

John

weverb

10-14-08, 10:37 AM

bsoko2

10-14-08, 11:22 AM

Well, it looks like I may have a second MBM on the way. Those of you with 2, any recommendations on how to easily insert the second? Is it better to have two up front with the mains versus two nearfield? I know when we talk about the main sub, there are those that have been able to stack them, can this be done with MBM's? Is there a benefit?

Thanks!

I have mine with the mains, on their side, firing forward into the room. I have my mains (Polk Monitor 10's) stacked on top with a Alurex subdude in between to isolate the mains from the MBM. More dynamic mid bass and it gives me floor bounce off the laminate flooring.

Bill

weverb

10-14-08, 11:29 AM

I have mine with the mains, on their side, firing forward into the room. I have my mains (Polk Monitor 10's) stacked on top with a Alurex subdude in between to isolate the mains from the MBM. More dynamic mid bass and it gives me floor bounce off the laminate flooring.

Bill

Bill

Did you just calibrated each of them to 75dB and then tweaked the combo (both on) again to 75dB? Is your xo set to 120Hz.?

Thanks.

weverb

10-21-08, 02:21 PM

Second MBM (second is between couch and chair) showed today. Have started playing with it in the nearfield position. So far no localization. Bass seems to be coming from the front stage.

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/8655/secondmbmpicio6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/secondmbmpicio6.jpg/1/w800.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img300/secondmbmpicio6.jpg/1/)

I have the combo level matched to the mains at 75dB. I was able to remove one filter from the eq and still get a good response.

http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/7236/secondmbmqw8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/secondmbmqw8.jpg/1/w800.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img388/secondmbmqw8.jpg/1/)

I will try playing with moving them up front over the next couple of days, but sounds good for now. :)

Bailman

10-21-08, 04:42 PM

I like I like. No delay device?

weverb

10-21-08, 04:49 PM

I like I like. No delay device?

My eq has delay capabilities, but all three subs are within 3 feet of one another. I have not heard anything suggesting I need to add a delay. All bass seems to be coming from the front.

weverb

10-22-08, 11:24 AM

In the previous set-up, I was able to increase the xo to 100Hz without the MBM's becoming localized. When I tried 120Hz, the bass seemed to be coming from the back (both side directions) and not the front stage.

It is amazing how you can turn your sub system completely around and still get it to sound the same! Sorry for the bad picture of the front, but I tried to do a panorama so you could see both MBM's. It took me less than three hours to move everything, level match, measure, and get this close. I still get the same tactile feel and sound (bass from the front stage) but only the lower stuff can some times be a little localized. Looks like I just need to a little more tweaking and address a bump at 85Hz. I demoed some music (jazz and rock), Open Range, and U571. So far things sound good. There is more rumble in the couch (which is nice) with the main sub nearfield. It is going to take time and a lot of listening to see which I like better. There are trade offs with both.

http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/9913/mbmsupfrontck0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/mbmsupfrontck0.jpg/1/w800.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img360/mbmsupfrontck0.jpg/1/)

http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/1412/newexlocationjd3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/newexlocationjd3.jpg/1/w800.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img384/newexlocationjd3.jpg/1/)

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/4242/nearfieldvsupfrontin7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/nearfieldvsupfrontin7.jpg/1/w800.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img204/nearfieldvsupfrontin7.jpg/1/)

weverb

11-24-08, 03:07 PM

I like a lot of you have been running my MBM-12’s on the LFE line with main speakers set to small. This gave a nice sharp mid for gunfights, etc. However, to me the mains were detailed in the high range but lacked “life”. Since the MBM’s were designed to accent the mid bass, I decided to try them wired into the mains with a crossover of 50 hz on the receiver sub setting with sub + mains. Since, all of my speakers are monitor style they can support a large setting. With this setup, lots of detail and the audio seems to be more alive. Set the 3.3’s (near field) to full and they souond just as good if not better in tone (always ran in MO mode). The loudness is there with mid and true sub and the tone is much improved in my estimation. My setup sounds like I’m in the local Cineplex watching the latest and greatest film. Tone and liveliness is more important to me than having loud slam with no life in the audio track.

Bill

How did you "wire" them into the mains? Did you bypass the MBM's internal amp and use the receiver/external amp for highs to drive them?

bsoko2

11-24-08, 03:55 PM

How did you "wire" them into the mains? Did you bypass the MBM's internal amp and use the receiver/external amp for highs to drive them?

Your MBM amp works the signal and does not use the main amp for the signal. You use the high pass "in posts" and the "output to speaker posts" to go to the mains. So you get 350 watts on the main mid bass.

Bill

davidag02

11-24-08, 10:01 PM

In a small enough space, would an MBM-12 compliment or overpower a single STF-2?

jmalto

12-09-08, 06:03 AM

Pete_Hsu

12-09-08, 08:29 PM

In a small enough space, would an MBM-12 compliment or overpower a single STF-2?

david, the MBM should not overpower an STF-2. Provided that it is level matched with the mains and the true subwoofer, then it should work very nicely!

Sincerely,

Pete_Hsu

12-09-08, 08:31 PM

Can someone with an MBM and a MFW-15 or multiple MFW-15's comment on how it sounds with and without the MBM? I know there was a user here with 1 MFW but they have not reported back their final thoughts on the combo.

Here you go, jmalto: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=14629017&postcount=215

We've had customers use our MBM-12 with great results on nearly all of the most well-regarded true subs < $2000 on the internet, regardless of brand.

rw88

12-09-08, 09:57 PM

Pete, have you ever considered adding a wireless option (like the ULS-15 uses) to the MBM-12? I'd love to have one close to my listening position, but running a physical line there from the AVR won't work in my room.

Joe741

12-09-08, 11:22 PM

Here you go, jmalto: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=14629017&postcount=215

We've had customers use our MBM-12 with great results on nearly all of the most well-regarded true subs < $2000 on the internet, regardless of brand.

Would you consider an Outlaw LFM-2 to be a true subwoofer? That would work well with a MBM-12?

dave98svt

01-11-09, 09:41 PM

Lebronze

01-11-09, 10:04 PM

I have Salk Songtowers and dual MFW-15's. My room is 30x15 with one wall that has multiple openings to another room the same size. my TV and system are on the short wall facing the long way. My couch is almost in the middle of the room. I love the sound of tight chest pounding midbass. Does anyone think a MBM-12 will help in my situation? The MFW's are great for movies, and the songtowers sound great, but seem they seem to be lacking midbass dynamics. I just don't know if a MBM will improve on dual MFW's......

I would definately suggest using REW to chart your room, and see what you are lacking. The dual mfw-15s may be enough, depending on their placement.

I am using one mfw-15, and here is my REW results without an mbm-12:
http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/9268/sweepnombmip9.jpg

Same mfw-15 placement, but I added an mbm-12:
http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/9960/sweepmbmea8.jpg

The best way to describe the mbm-12 is that it will give your room a thick, full sound that you can hear, and feel (depending on placement). I have only had it for a couple days, but I am already highly impressed. Cant believe I waited so long to buy one.

cacihome

01-12-09, 10:22 AM

Nice...
Do you have it crossed at 50hz?
Have you tried at 45 to see if that dip goes away...?
Also I would try inverting the phase on one of the units...

Lebronze

01-12-09, 05:20 PM

Nice...
Do you have it crossed at 50hz?
Have you tried at 45 to see if that dip goes away...?
Also I would try inverting the phase on one of the units...

I have the phase on the mbm-12 set to 180, crossed at 50 right now.

I'm pretty sure its just a null at the listening position, I'm going to take readings with the spl meter in different locations tonight.

The null is still there if I have the crossover disabled on the mbm-12 and the mfw-15.

stevegamble66

01-14-09, 08:03 PM

I have to run 1 true sub, 2 MBM's , and a Buttkicker/IBeam transducer
> set up is also on the way.
>
> I wondered about splitting the RCA with several " Y cable" sub out on my receiver so many times ?
> Could I just go SVS sub in then from SVSsub out (on Sub) on to IN,HsuMBM.. then from Out on to the next unit..and so on ?
>
> Or does the internal crossover setting interfere ? I'll have different settings on each unit.
> Sub will be set to 70hz internal cross over, .. receiver is set 200hz with speakers set
> to large(although that is over ridden when you bass out to Both), Bass out Both, and @200hz, so..it'll go to Fronts, and MBM as well as
> Centre.(large also)
> Just wondered ? About connection options reducing Y splitters ?

All three sub units are up front under screen,,sorta' flanking mains.

Thanks in advance for any reply.

Lebronze

01-15-09, 08:23 AM