I'm sure similar things have been asked in the past, but I haven't found any suitable topics, so here it goes.

I recently purchased a pair of older thiel towers. They're excellent speakers, but I find the low end a bit lacking, especially for some orchestral music and that type of thing. I'm trying to flesh out the low end a bit (the Thiels goes deep cleanly, but with little body or force), but I'd rather not spend too much, as budget is important. I'm looking for a musical sub that will give me more substantial bass in a 15'X25' room. Nothing ridiculous, as I'm not a basshead, but something a little more effective.

I've been looking at the outlaw and Hsu offerings, but I wasn't sure as to what others I should be looking for. Is used a good possibility? I'm ideally looking to spend 200-450$ on this.

Thanks,

~Paul

********** has a nice array of subs that are considered "musical" by most. I have the ufw-12 in my ht. It lacks a little for ht but sounds great with music. They have 3 other ones that would fit your budget.

400 hundred bucks for a sub? I wouldnt pay over 40 or 50
I'd rather get a whole system for that Price!

Does the receiver you use have sub out and bass management controls? If it is a stereo only receiver, you need to ensure your sub has speaker level inputs, built in crossover control, and phase control. Most subs do, but there are some that don't.

I'm currently using a rather crummy kenwood with no management, but I'll soon get an outlaw RR2150 with excellent management.

this is the same situation i'm in but i have a yamaha rxv-1600

Probably B&W ASW-300

Look at the AV123 ULW-10. A little over your price range, but not by much at $499. unfortunately they are out of the black right now and only have maple. If you can stretch it, look at the UFW-10 at $599.

Take a look at eD subs. Great prices, response down to 18hz, and many are giving them good reviews. I've not heard the HT subs, but I have nothing but great things to say about their car subs, as I have installed many, and am a proud owner. Really fill out the bottom end to fill out what your missing. Very musical subs! You really can't beat the prices either! 12" sub with 200 watts for $350 and fee shipping. You will have to wait a little while, as they are back logged on the builds. http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/index.php?cPath=2_41

Also, have heard the HSU VT-2 MK3 and was very very impressed! For $499, it will fit your bill as well. http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-2-mk3.html

I strongly second the AV13 Onix Rocket sub recomendation.

I've used a pair in a stereo setup with maggies with great success.

Look at the AV123 ULW-10. A little over your price range, but not by much at $499. unfortunately they are out of the black right now and only have maple. If you can stretch it, look at the UFW-10 at $599.

They also have B-Stock UFW-12s (Rosewood only) for $599 right now. B-Stock UFW-10's for $425 recently, so you might want to shoot them an email & check to see if they have any left.

FWIW I'd wait on the eD subs until they get their supply problems under control and have a few professional reviews out.

BTW if you are interested in the ULW-10 and would prefer one in black send me a PM.

I've been thinking about selling my Acoustec H100 and getting something more suitabe for HT. It is a great musical sub with tight bass to the mid to upper 20Hz range but I might try a HSU VTF 3-2. It's not even boken in yet @ 6 months old. PM me if interested.

Even if you don't want mine I would highly recommend the H100. It is a gorgeous sub and the best bang for the buck IMO.

here's a link
http://bicacoustechspeakers.com/closeup.asp?cid=57&pid=125&offset=0

I've been looking at the outlaw and Hsu offerings, but I wasn't sure as to what others I should be looking for. Is used a good possibility? I'm ideally looking to spend 200-450$ on this.
I suggest you retitle your thread to say that you are looking for subs <$400 since that seems to be what you want. Musical subs >$400 are easier to find.

As other people have suggested, look at the subs offered by AV123, as well as HSU. The Hsu VTF-2 Mk3 would be a great sub for music.

Since music is a priority, I hope you already have or at least are planning on treating the room itself. A panels on either side of the speakers at bare minimum for reflections, and some panels in the front corners for the bass at minimum. No matter what sub or speakers or equipment you have, the room is the biggest speaker, the biggest link in the chain. I'd rather have a $500 sub and a $500 pair of speakers in a treated room than a $1K sub and $1K speakers in a non-treated room.

The Hsu VTF-2 Mk3 would be a great sub for music.

While the Mk3 is just out of the OP's stated price range, HSU currently has the Mk2 on sale for $399 which is a fantastic deal (that's the same price as the VTF-1).

The STF-1 & STF-2 are also excellent choices at $249 & $319 respectively

PS - Listen to cyberbri's advice on room treatments as well.

Can anyone point me to a shootout between the Bic H-100 and the HSU STF-2? Is there even any comparison? I know you'll probably say only I can make this determination, but is the extra ~$120 dollars worth it?

I'm currently leaning towards the HSU STF-2. However, I had several sub-related questions that I was wondering about.

First, how does one hook up two subs to one receiver? Does one split the signal from subwoofer-out? or something along those lines?

Also, how would two 8" subs compare to one 12" sub for the more visceral effects (feeling the sub), and or music.

thanks for all the input, I really appreciate all the ideas people have posted.

~P

You can split the output to the two subs. Depending on the sub (like comparing Hsu's own subs), a single 12" will go lower than two 10" subs. Ie., the $500 VTF-2 Mk3 can be set to go down to 18Hz, and the VTF-3 Mk3 will do it at higher SPL, while the STF-2 I think goes to the mid 20s.

If you are going to use this for movies and music, I suggest going with a single VTF-3 Mk3 rather than 2 STF-2s.

I'm going to be using this primarily for music, and not even extremely-deep music at that. What I'm looking for is more of a presence for the bass (I have 8" woofers on the elderly thiel towers, but I feel that the bass is something that is hinted at rather than expressed clearly). I listen to a lot of jazz, and I frequently feel, for example, that the string bass doesn't have enough presence, or electronic organ in the lower registers. In order to 'flesh out' the low end, but still keep it clean and musical, would it be better to have, say, two 8" x-series subs or one VTF-2 MK 2 for my purposes? I don't need ridiculously low bass, (perhaps 28 hz or so, no lower), but I do want more of a visceral feelings and certainly greater definition.

bump... sorry, but I'm curious on the last question

Also check out the Martin Logan Dynamo, on sale at Magnolia for $399 for silver. Regular price was $699 I believe. It is a compact and musical sub that goes down to about 25hz.

I'm going to be using this primarily for music, and not even extremely-deep music at that. What I'm looking for is more of a presence for the bass (I have 8" woofers on the elderly thiel towers, but I feel that the bass is something that is hinted at rather than expressed clearly). I listen to a lot of jazz, and I frequently feel, for example, that the string bass doesn't have enough presence, or electronic organ in the lower registers. In order to 'flesh out' the low end, but still keep it clean and musical, would it be better to have, say, two 8" x-series subs or one VTF-2 MK 2 for my purposes? I don't need ridiculously low bass, (perhaps 28 hz or so, no lower), but I do want more of a visceral feelings and certainly greater definition.


Two STF-1s or x-subs would do the trick. And with dual subs you could place them on either side of the room, giving you stereo bass. You could even run the speakers as large and use the subs' built-in crossovers. (make sure they have them, though, as not all subs do, before you buy).

But for that amount of money, a VTF-2 Mk3, 12" sub would give you great bass as well, possibly better.

I know what you mean about the lower octaves and the "body" to the sound. Listening to my mains by themselves, they do great with bass guitars, and have some kick for drums. But they really start to trail off around 60~70Hz. When I switch over to mains crossed to my VTF-3 Mk2, bass guitars get a lower register or two, but not too noticeable unless I'm listening for it. But drums, kick drums and the like, suddenly sound real and forceful, like they're in the room.


Whatever you do, spend the money on room treatments. That will do more for your sound than the difference between one sub to the next. You can do it on the cheap by buying the insulation and building panels, etc. yourself. But even if you buy them, places like GIK Acoustics are pretty reasonable as well.

It is possible that placement issues and room interaction has more impact on your situation than the capabilities of your Thiels. Bass traps could help.

That said, you would have a lot of placement flexability with a pair of X-subs and 30 days to see how well you could integrate them. Do you have a meter and Avia?

I just went to Best Buy (w/ Magnolia). Silver Martin Logan Dynamo is on clearance, although it is unadvertised. I had to ask. Ordered one which will be in next week.

Seems like a really musical sub for the stated <$400 price. ..

Give it sometime to break in. to speed things up, I left mine on while I was at work, for several days.

audioholics.com reviewed the ulw10 it and there is a link to a special here

http://www.**********/products_product.php?section=subwoofers&product=9.1