It seems like from a sales data perspective, it has to be treated as a 3rd format. There's no way to know which side of the disc it's being bought for. So, once Warner switches to TotalHD, Warner titles will no longer be able to be counted towards HD DVD sales. Granted, they won't be able to be counted towards BR sales either, but given the landscape of studio support, this seems to hurt HD DVD way more than BR. Thoughts?

It seems like from a sales data perspective, it has to be treated as a 3rd format. There's no way to know which side of the disc it's being bought for. So, once Warner switches to TrueHD, Warner titles will no longer be able to be counted towards HD DVD sales. Granted, they won't be able to be counted towards BR sales either, but given the landscape of studio support, this seems to hurt HD DVD way more than BR. Thoughts?

All great points.

TrueHD is an audio format.

http://www.gazav.com/i/news/201/209_694321128185369_picture_perfect_lg.jpg

TrueHD is an audio format.

LOL, I completely overlooked that. It's pretty clear he means TotalHD though. :)

Maybe they could just count the TotalHD discs separately. I doubt Warner would like that though, since that would essentially single out their sales.

Personally, I don't really think it matters. The big studios and Blu-ray and HD DVD backers will already know what the real numbers are. I'm sure Warner itself will be telling them, like they have been all along.

DOH. Thanks for the title edit.

Maybe they could just count the TotalHD discs separately. I doubt Warner would like that though, since that would essentially single out their sales.

Personally, I don't really think it matters. The big studios and Blu-ray and HD DVD backers will already know what the real numbers are. I'm sure Warner itself will be telling them, like they have been all along.

My point is that I think they HAVE to count them separately. How else would they count them? You could count them as both HD DVD and BR, I guess, but the net effect is still zero. With studio support being what it is right now, I think it's a big deal that HD DVD is going to have to stop counting Warner titles for software sales. Every TotalHD disc purchased by an HD DVD fan won't matter. It doesn't get counted as an HD DVD software sale. Both camps are effectively losing a studio, but this loss will actually work to BDA's advantage, since Warner was previously favoring HD DVD. And CES 2008 no doubt will have FOX presenting a chart showing that 100% of TotalHD discs are used exclusively in BR players.

Personally, I'm getting the feeling that Warner is looking for a gentle and polite way to kill HD DVD without being blamed for turning. If they wanted to remain neutral, they'd just keep releasing on both formats like every other neutral studio. The claim of making it easier on retailers is bogus when they're the only ones doing it, and they know some studios will NEVER do it, effectively throwing a 3rd format into the mix. They know that Universal and Paramount can't carry HD DVD sales alone. If HD DVD never regains the sales lead, then BR exclusive studios have no reason to consider neutrality, and Universal has no reason to stay exclusive to HD DVD. And ultimately, Warner will have no reason to keep pressing a losing format on the back side of a winning format. The only way to offset this blow is for Chinese players to hit the market soon and sell enough to gain parity with PS3... but that seems a long shot.

It's amazing how quickly things can turn around in a couple months. My entry cost into HD DVD (approx $250 after 12% coupon and selling upscaling player) means I won't regret my A1 no matter what, but I think I'll be Netflixing instead of buying from now on.

I'll still be buying my movies. If HD DVD fails, then I'll just buy a combo player and I'll be alright.

I agree with you about Warner though. And if I can import a disc from Europe somewhere that isn't TotalHD, then I will. Even if I end up paying a little more. I don't like how they force you to buy a format you don't want.

It will be clear based on standalone sales figures.

It will be clear based on standalone sales figures.

Yeah but I have a PS3, and a 360 addon. I guess I wouldn't count if I bought this disk.

I think warner just doesn't care about which format wins, which I think is actually a good thing. Personally I'm on HD-DVD's side, but if a company is going to be neutral then they really should be neutral.

And CES 2008 no doubt will have FOX presenting a chart showing that 100% of TotalHD discs are used exclusively in BR players.

I missed that one the first time around! That is the funniest thing I have read all weekend!

:)

Who cares? Just give us more f'ing movies now! :)

larry

Personally, I'm getting the feeling that Warner is looking for a gentle and polite way to kill HD DVD without being blamed for turning.
That makes no sense.

You're saying they are going to kill HD DVD by releasing movies on HD DVD. :confused:

That makes no sense.

You're saying they are going to kill HD DVD by releasing movies on HD DVD. :confused:

They won't be releasing on HD DVD. They'll be releasing on Total HD. There's a big difference.

Any title released on Total HD will be meaningless in gauging the success of HD DVD vs BR. It will only be useful in measuring consumer interest in HD vs SD DVD.

If each camp had an equal number of studios supporting it, then Total HD would affect both camps equally. Since HD DVD has less studios behind it, losing the ability to distinguish the sale of HD DVD vs BR for one studio puts them at a disadvantage.

It's been said that the reason certain studios are exclusive is that they bought the PS3 hype. Whether a person agrees with that or not, I think everyone can agree that the only way to back up this statement, and make some of those studios give a second thought to their stance, is by HD DVD continuing to outsell BR in software in spite of PS3 sales. To do that, you obviously need to be able to distinguish between HD DVD and BR sales.

Kosty says hardware sales can be used to estimate the spread of Total HD discs among HD DVD vs BR owners. I already mentioned that as something that could possibly offset the disadvantage. But right now it's a big IF, with no firm announcements of brands, features, price points, or anticipated release dates. If you break down Total HD disc sales by number of HD DVD vs BR players sold to date (all-inclusive, not just standalone), then again, advantage to BR.

Think of it this way. How many weeks did HD DVD fans get to fanfare the Amazon rankings of Superman Returns on HD DVD vs BR? Well, what if Warner had released it on Total HD? Then it wouldn't matter that most people were watching the HD DVD side, since there wouldn't have been a way to track it. BR fans would have used the PS3 sales to claim that most discs were being watched on the BR side, and right or wrong, HD DVD would never be able to provide any evidence to the contrary.

They won't be releasing on HD DVD. They'll be releasing on Total HD. There's a big difference.

Any title released on Total HD will be meaningless in gauging the success of HD DVD vs BR.
For you maybe, but not for those in the industry.

This is a complete non-issue.

If anything, it's a boon for Sony and the BDA because the software sales for Total HD titles will be irrelevant (because it will make it impossible to tell which platform is buying more software) and all that will remain are hardware sales totals.

Guess what? Sony will include every PS3 sold in their hardware numbers so they will likely have the edge for a long time to come in that case. They will spin it for all it's worth. I just hope that CE vendors and the studios manage to see through the facade and realize that only a small fraction of PS3 owners are viable Blu Ray movie customers.

For you maybe, but not for those in the industry.

This is a complete non-issue.

It's a PR issue, and a public perception issue when it comes to Sony and the BDA throwing out useless numbers which the HD DVD group will not be able to refute to the layman consumer.

It's a PR issue, and a public perception issue when it comes to Sony and the BDA throwing out useless numbers which the HD DVD group will not be able to refute to the layman consumer.
Sure they can. PR on both sides is going to be laid on thick.

Warner doesn't care which side you are buying the disc for as long as they sell it. Only people here concerned about their personal format preference and HD-DVD and Blu-Ray groups care about that crap.

For you maybe, but not for those in the industry.

This is a complete non-issue.

Would you care to elaborate? How will industry insiders track which side of the disc is being watched in individual's homes? If we're talking hardware sales, then game over for HD DVD. Toshiba cannot out-produce the PS3. HD DVD needs to show superior software sales IN SPITE OF the PS3, which can only happen if you can distinguish between HD DVD and BR sales. Chinese players don't matter until they hit shelves and prove that the public will mass-adopt them.

Don't get me wrong here. Do a search on my post history. I'm admittedly anti-BR / anti-Sony. I *want* HD DVD to win. Two months ago I thought it was a no-brainer. But something has gone horribly wrong lately, and I fail to see how this Total HD format is going to help the situation. My response to this is to simply back off purchases the next few months and see what happens. But I see plenty of people on these forums jumping ship and helping boost the BR numbers. If someone doesn't slap a tourniquet on this hemorrage, and do it SOON, BR is going to steamroll my chosen format, whether I like it or not. I'm just trying to be realistic.

Warner doesn't care which side you are buying the disc for as long as they sell it. Only people here concerned about their personal format preference and HD-DVD and Blu-Ray groups care about that crap.

Of course Warner doesn't care which side you play. That's not what we're talking about.

I truly hate the basic design/premise of the TotalHD titles for a lot of reasons that many understand and/or have already mentioned in other threads.

And I'm really gonna have a hard time convincing myself to buy these at all because of it too.

Here are the possible scenarios that will happen for me:
1. They'll price the TotalHD discs significantly higher than regular HD DVD movies and I'll easily be able ignore them out of disgust for the cost. I'll pray/assume others will do the same and I'll wait several months to see what happens.
2. They'll be enough other content I want (or already own but still need to watch) from Universal, Paramount, and others - so that it easily allows me to ignore TotalHD - no matter how much it costs. I'll then wait several months while praying TotalHD doesn't succeed.
3. TotalHD comes out at standard-to-lower prices and at a time when I just happen to be starved for content to watch. I then see that it starts to succeed or will succeed. Finally, I reluctantly buy the format but only if I am able to afford/obtain blank HD DVD cases, new cover/disc art, and a nice printer with which to implement it all first. I'll then buy the format regularly - always creating my own custom cases & disc art first - while trying to pretend I'm OK with all that and that everything is normal.

Hopefully scenarios 1 and 2 happen simultaneously and I don't ever have to deal with scenario 3. But if that happens - I guess I'll live...

Maybe they could just count the TotalHD discs separately. I doubt Warner would like that though, since that would essentially single out their sales.

Personally, I don't really think it matters. The big studios and Blu-ray and HD DVD backers will already know what the real numbers are. I'm sure Warner itself will be telling them, like they have been all along.


???? Real numbers?

If 1,000 TotalHD discs are sold, how many of those are used on HD-DVD players and how many are used on Bluray players?

This is what current Videoscan numbers would reveal, but how will TotalHD be counted? I think it would matter very much.

This sounds right. TotalHD would have to be eliminated from the sales figures considering HD-DVD vs. Blu-ray.

If anyone still doesn't understand, picture yourself in a store and you see a person buying a TotalHD disk... okay it's clear that person has a high definition player, but WHICH one? The sale represents a high definition sale, and not a seperate HD-DVD or Blu-ray sale.

Here's another thought... if Paramount decides to use TotalHD as well. The only studio left to count actual sales of HD-DVD is Universal. Sales figures would be Universal vs. the 5 Blu-ray exclusive studios. There's no way 1 studio can keep up with 5 in terms of releasing media. Sales figures would then show Blu-ray as stomping the competition even though TotalHD sales could be mostly from HD-DVD owners.

Saying that one format is using TotalHD more than the other is like Sony stating that ALL PS3s are being used for Blu-ray movie watching. In reality, there is really no way to tell if the buyer is only playing video games or not.

Personally, I see TotalHD as a negative impact on the HD-DVD media in terms of the format war.

DOH. Thanks for the title edit.



My point is that I think they HAVE to count them separately. How else would they count them? You could count them as both HD DVD and BR, I guess, but the net effect is still zero. With studio support being what it is right now, I think it's a big deal that HD DVD is going to have to stop counting Warner titles for software sales. Every TotalHD disc purchased by an HD DVD fan won't matter. It doesn't get counted as an HD DVD software sale. Both camps are effectively losing a studio, but this loss will actually work to BDA's advantage, since Warner was previously favoring HD DVD. And CES 2008 no doubt will have FOX presenting a chart showing that 100% of TotalHD discs are used exclusively in BR players.

Personally, I'm getting the feeling that Warner is looking for a gentle and polite way to kill HD DVD without being blamed for turning. If they wanted to remain neutral, they'd just keep releasing on both formats like every other neutral studio. The claim of making it easier on retailers is bogus when they're the only ones doing it, and they know some studios will NEVER do it, effectively throwing a 3rd format into the mix. They know that Universal and Paramount can't carry HD DVD sales alone. If HD DVD never regains the sales lead, then BR exclusive studios have no reason to consider neutrality, and Universal has no reason to stay exclusive to HD DVD. And ultimately, Warner will have no reason to keep pressing a losing format on the back side of a winning format. The only way to offset this blow is for Chinese players to hit the market soon and sell enough to gain parity with PS3... but that seems a long shot.

It's amazing how quickly things can turn around in a couple months. My entry cost into HD DVD (approx $250 after 12% coupon and selling upscaling player) means I won't regret my A1 no matter what, but I think I'll be Netflixing instead of buying from now on.

Warner is in it for the money, like every business. TotalHD is just a way for them to increase profit on what will remain a tiny market for a while. They will only have to release a DVD and a THD instead of DVD+BR+HD-DVD.

I believe the only right thing to do is to count THD separately, but most likely they will just include them in both BR and HD-DVD sales. Either way, it's not like we're getting truthful numbers so far, so most likely it's because sales are real small numbers for both formats.

Hybrid players will make all of this moot anyways.

Bugs, you have always been a pretty rational poster, but I don't get where you are coming from here. From a PR perspective, any Total HD disc or any combo player will cloud the numbers, and Blu Ray will always have the PS3 while HD DVD has no such implement of mass number distortion.

If every disc is Total HD and every player is a combo, then both sides claim those numbers as their own, but the BDA adds every shipped PS3 to their hardware numbers and it is going to look like BD rules the roost even if 100% of those Total HD discs or combo players were truly being bought by HD DVD consumers.

From a practical perspective however, Total HD discs and combo players will ultimately hurt Sony and the BDA more because either they will have to keep subsidizing the market for a very long time (life?) or the studios and the CE vendors make the jump to the cheaper HD DVD medium.

I welcome that, but dread the mass of BS propaganda that the BDA will air-drop over the press in the meantime.

I also dislike the fact that Total HD and Warner’s new found policy of screwing over HD DVD owners because BRD is not up to speed (at least that is their excuse) will prolong a format war that could have been nearly over had Warner stuck to their guns.

The longer the war goes, the greater customer indifference to HD optical media becomes, and at this point no one is doing more to drag out the stalemate than Warner.

Hybrid players will make all of this moot anyways.
Agreed. Bring on the Hybrid/Combo/Dual players before this gets completely out of control. The very thought of TotalHD tells me that certain studios have already written off HD media as a mass market and are trying to figure out how to get the most money with the least number of SKUs from it.