I have my HA up and running using CQC. still need to do Lighting and Security but I have A/V, Irrigation, Thermostats, Wireless Cameras all functioning. With touchscreens in each room.


I had a friend ask me about the cost and I can't mislead him with mine since I bought mostly everything off of ebay.

If I was to install for someone else the cost would be different and I will post that in a minute.


Mine was.....

CQC - $495
3 Viewsonic touchscreens $1200
2 PCs $600
1.5 TBs of external Disks $800
Autopatch Matrix switch (and backup) $1100
5 HT receivers $1500
Rain8 irrigation $200
3 Wireless Cameras $600
IP based Thermostats with 2 extra sensors $600
Component video/speakers in every room/speaker wire $3500

total cost $10595

Up for a month without problems...unless I reboot for my own needs.

Now, if I was to install for a friend who wasnt a techie, things go wrong he would be lost so reliability, warranty is very import. All products would be new and not purchased off of ebay.

Approx costs.....

1 CQC $895
4 Samsung Q1 touchscreens $3600
2 PCs $1500
1.5 TB $800
DVD changer $500
Lutron lighting system $3600
Rain8net $200
Thermostats $500
Run cat5e (or cat6) everywhere and use matrix switches that work over cat5e
A/V matrix switch $3000 ??
HT receivers in specific rooms $1000
Russound or Zantech amps in all other zones $1500
Security/wireless Cameras $1200


So I tell him ballpark $18200....where can he save money?

and what Did I miss?

I'd just as soon guide higher in the beginning, let him go lower as desired. Tell him it's just $20K, if he reacts badly then he can save $$ by buying used. No good can come of guiding him at $12-$15K and then upselling.

Add
- $1000 or so for cables & tools (so you can get the nicer stuff)
- $500 more for PCs esp if one of them is doing HD video rendering. Give him room to get a Core2Duo with a higher end graphics card for the renderer.
- $300-$700 for PVR; SageTV plus either HD cards or that RD5000 HD thingey
- $(300?) more for the 1.5TB so you can get one of those RAID5 in a box thingeys, so he doesn't curse you out when a hard disk fails.

So that's somewhere bet $20K-$21K for all new stuff rounded out. BTW, I didn't include any security stuff like motion sensors/etc, which would be another $1K-$3K based on what you want to do.

i have been reading many of these threads on home automation, and it looks like those autopatches are great for the prices off of ebay. Where can i get more info on them, the website doesnt go into enough detail for me. Do you need adapters to convert the component and digital audio from the autopatch? Can you guys shed some more light on this? I want 4 hd tvs in my house, and i would love one of those AVATRIX devices, but i think 3k is too much.

thanks

IVB thanks! I will tell him $25K for a superb system because Im sure Im missing things and I didnt include speakers installed in every room. The PC upgrades for HD and Vista, etc are worth it long term. I tend to price PCs cheap because I always find refurbished ones that do a great job.

digitalready, Autopatch info can be found on the CQC forum. I dont want to get into details about that single device here. I will say this my Autopatch has currently 5 HD cards IN/5 HD cards OUT (thats 3 component BNC connections and 1 Digital Audio BNC connection per card). Simply plug in all your cables, control the device through a serial connection and you have simple/reliable full A/V switching matrix solution.

Approx costs.....

1 CQC $895
4 Samsung Q1 touchscreens $3600
2 PCs $2500
1.5 TB $1500 (Raid)
DVD changer $500
Lutron lighting system $3600
Rain8net $200
Thermostats $500
Run cat5e (or cat6) everywhere and use matrix switches that work over cat5e (structured wiring costs part of house, extra ethernet runs not much more)
A/V matrix switch $3000 ??
HT receivers in specific rooms $1000
Russound or Zantech amps in all other zones $1500
Speakers in all rooms (7 pairs x $250) $1750 HT room extra!!
Security/wireless Cameras $1200
PVR, HD Cable Box already owned and using...but will be able to share it in all rooms.

Cost around $21K.

lol, A local Russound dealer quoted him 15K for a Audio mulitzone solution with lighting.

I keep thinking I should go into business in my area once I get full expertise of all products involved. I can undercut all those guys by 50% for some reason and with the average house price above $400K it might be a viable business for a hobby.

digitalready,

I'm doing an installation for my dad, and I went Extron instead of Autopatch. They're basically the same thing except Autopatch has some lower end stuff (stuff that uses RCA cables). The better stuff will use Phoenix connectors for analog audio and BNC for analog video (I know with Extron you can also get DVI switchers, however there are no digital video switchers that are HDCP compliant). I'm unsure about digital audio switching since I've never seen something that does that. I only assume it exists.

As far as pricing goes, I was shopping on eBay for the Extron switcher for my dad and lost a 16x16 Composite AV Matrix Switcher (that is 16 ins and 16 outs). I lost it at the last second for $330. I only cared about the audio portion, but the retail for that piece is some $7600. But even if I went with JUST want I need (an 8x8 Audio only Matrix Switch) the Extron unit is retail $2200. That's certainly too much, but the next day I did see an 8x8 Composite AV Matrix Switcher go on eBay for $235 ($300 after shipping) so I jumped on that.

Anyhow, enough of my story. For your HD video switching, that becomes a problem with HDCP. If the HD you have in your house only goes up to 720p, it shouldn't be a problem, but if you want 1080p then you're SOL. If you don't mind going to component (which isn't really a good practice... a digital signal is best if it's digital all the way to the TV unless it's a CRT HD, then it doesn't matter) then you can use any component or composite switch that you can find on eBay as long as it has enough ports. A composite switch will require 3 ports per component signal (unless you expand out to RGBHV, then you need 5). So with 4 HD tvs you want to switch to, that would require a minimum of 12 composite ports on the switch. If you can find a component switch, then one port per will work (because each port has 5 connectors).

If you want to go the eBay route, then the best bet is just to keep and eye out and be willing to change your plan around what you can find and/or what you're willing to spend. The 16x16 Matrix I tried to get was certainly far more than I needed, but the price was great. I spent the same amount for an 8x8 Matrix in the end and lost nothing.

They're basically the same thing except Autopatch has some lower end stuff (stuff that uses RCA cables). The better stuff will use Phoenix connectors for analog audio and BNC for analog video

Lower end stuff and better stuff are subjective terms (kind of like reading about Monster stuff ;) ). Autopatch new is very expensive and it is high end equipment that will switch component video.

I have a 1080P setup. I have quality video through Autopatch. Enough said about what each will offer. Im switching Digital Audio with my Autopatch.

One thing about buying matrix switches is that you shouldnt just by anything. Some wont switch more then a 1 to 1 (source to output), Some dont have Serial communication, Some dont have really high enough bandwidth. These things need to be double checked.


Now lets stick to pricing out home automation for my friend :)

If you want to go the eBay route, then the best bet is just to keep and eye out and be willing to change your plan around what you can find and/or what you're willing to spend. The 16x16 Matrix I tried to get was certainly far more than I needed, but the price was great. I spent the same amount for an 8x8 Matrix in the end and lost nothing.

Good Advice. I snagged a 8x8 RGBHV + 8x8 stereo Audio Series 100 Extron Matrix Switcher for less than $300. The RGBHV does Component just fine with 400Mhz Boards, plus I have the stereo audio and RS232 control to boot. I just saw another 200 Series Extron go for around $250. These units were $10K+ in their prime.

So Penngray, you will go into business and sell and install this system for a customer for 21k. So your business will have zero overhead, zero labor, zero profit.

What do you think your exact list sold and installed would really cost someone? You can't seriously think it could be done for 21k. As aDIY project, with an unlimited timeframe, maybe you could get it done for this price, but as a commercial sale, it is ridiculous. The system you describe is most assuredly a 50k system if it is professionally designed and installed. The premise of your original post, if it meant a complete DIY solution may be somewhat accurate, but if you are telling people that they can have the functionality you describe in a turnkey system for 21k, then you are completely delusional.

I have a 1080P setup. I have quality video through Autopatch. Enough said about what each will offer. Im switching Digital Audio with my Autopatch.

One thing about buying matrix switches is that you shouldnt just by anything. Some wont switch more then a 1 to 1 (source to output), Some dont have Serial communication, Some dont have really high enough bandwidth. These things need to be double checked.

Are you saying you have the ability to switch a 1080p signal to multiple sources? Unless something major changed in the last 6 months, that's not supposed to be allowed. You can switch DIGITAL signals, but you have to have HDCP compliant pieces of equipment for 1080p, and Intel will not certify anything that allows the splitting of the signal (that is, HDCP material going to multiple devices). The only reason I know that is because of a conversation I had with an Extron employee about why they don't have HDMI switchers last July.

And as for matrix switches, if it's really a MATRIX switch (the matrix being the keyword) it's supposed to, by definition, allow one input to multiple outputs. If it doesn't, it's just a plain old switcher. At work I deal exclusively with Extron, so I guess there could be misleading equipment out there I don't know about. If so, that really sucks ;)

Good Advice. I snagged a 8x8 RGBHV + 8x8 stereo Audio Series 100 Extron Matrix Switcher for less than $300. The RGBHV does Component just fine with 400Mhz Boards, plus I have the stereo audio and RS232 control to boot. I just saw another 200 Series Extron go for around $250. These units were $10K+ in their prime.

Very true. eBay is a great place to get equipment like this. The 16x16 I saw was surplus equipment from Univ. of Nebraska - Lincoln. The 8x8 I got was a sample unit someone got rid of. You see stuff like that all the time on there for sure. I see similar situations for Autopatch switchers as well.

However, if you were to do it professionally, it's not reasonable to rely on eBay when quoting your price. But for DIY or DIFAF (do it for a friend ;) ) situations, it's great!

penngray, for your price projection for your friend, how many zones is he going to have? If it's 6 or less, it seems you'd do better to push the audio using the Niles 1230. It's MSRP is 1k, but you can get it a couple hundred less than that new or even better on eBay. That seems to be about half the price of your quoted amps for zones.

penngray, for your price projection for your friend, how many zones is he going to have? If it's 6 or less, it seems you'd do better to push the audio using the Niles 1230. It's MSRP is 1k, but you can get it a couple hundred less than that new or even better on eBay. That seems to be about half the price of your quoted amps for zones.

Ssssssh!

I've been trying to get one for the past 3 weeks, but keep getting sniped! I can get one for $610 new via a friend who's a dealer, but was hoping for less. Some shmuck got one for $400 3 weeks ago, i just missed out on that.

Are you saying you have the ability to switch a 1080p signal to multiple sources?

PS3 is 1080P, my JVC 61" is 1080P and I can see the HD stuff so I dont know. Maybe its 1080i?

You could be right but it switches any High Def video I need so that is all I care about.

However, if you were to do it professionally, it's not reasonable to rely on eBay when quoting your price.

and Im not actually, Im going with pricing found online for new equipment. I will look up the Niles 1230, he only needs 6 zones.

The system you describe is most assuredly a 50k system if it is professionally designed and installed. The premise of your original post, if it meant a complete DIY solution may be somewhat accurate, but if you are telling people that they can have the functionality you describe in a turnkey system for 21k, then you are completely delusional.

never said the selling price is 21K but Im sure I can sell it easily for less then 50K. Yes, it would be as good as any professional custom install. Why do "professionals" think we cant do better. Heck I build software for a living, everything I do for money is professional so this would be just another piece of software.

The only question for me here is there really a market for me to branch my business into a new area. I know there isnt really any professionals in my area, definitely know one selling simple turnkey solutions locally.

yes mine is DIY but there is no reason I can not convert that into a turnkey product and purchase all new equipment. It would run as flawless as any other turnkey solution garunteed because that is what I do for a living already. I write software for companies that run 24/7 and have automated systems that run day and night. Do you think I want to be called at 4 am? No.....hey guess what.....instead of over priced $200K unix servers we run 15K PC servers.....um....I know where to save money and still perform!

I dont even know what CQC costs for a professional. I know its much higher so thats a question mark.

I also dont know what CQC professional installs are running Im just going over the hardware list and breaking the costs down to find out what things really costs because the quotes from installers in my area doesnt work out with the true costs of equipment.

The MSRP pro costs are on the web site, under the Try/Buy tab. If you don't need the media system, it's $1595. But there's no yearly maintenance, and it includes priority support. That would include any optional components except the media system.

Component video can carry 1080p signal. Some devices can and do output 1080p over component and a very few displays accept and display 1080p over component video. Most pro level component video matrix switches have plenty of bandwidth to switch 1080p over component. This is not a very common thing now, or even later, but it is possible.

There will likely be HDMI matrixes available sometime, but the cost will be high and the reliability low unless the quirkiness of HDMI is addressed.

Penn, nothing I wrote said that you couldn't sell a system that was as good or even better than any other professional company. But if you think that many CI firms are making a huge margin and just raping their customers, then you are sorely mistaken. The labor costs to build a system such as you describe would be very high. the cost of your equipment would be very high and there isn't as much margin as you might think. I'll ask you again, if your cost for equipment for the aforementioned system was 21k, what do you think you should sell it to a non-freind customer for? Fully installed, programmed, warranted, etc., and still make a profit that could sustain a business.

You can send 1080p over component cables? HDCP is a digital signal, so how does that work? I'm certainly no HDMI or HDCP expert, I can only tell you what the guy from Extron told me, and that is that 1080p requires HDCP authentication at source and display, otherwise the signal is down converted. He said that to use HDCP, you have to register with Intel and they will not let you use it unless you follow very specific rules. But regardless of that, did they loosen the rules on HDCP with 1080p signals? I mean, I know component could carry the bandwidth of the 1080p signal, I'm talking about a weakness with sources and displays needing HDCP.

Fletch, great points.

I listed the hardware above and I wonder what Im missing.

Full home automation defined as.

-Audio/video distribution
-lighting (only important areas, we dont need expensive switches everywhere. I use sensor switches from Home Depot in all hallways, bathrooms, etc. They are awesome.)
- Security (3 or 4 cameras, web based and PC based recording).
- IP Thermostats
- irrigation

What else does a house need? Im sure there are some things.

All the hardware listed above is still under 25K....so software development and installation would not be another 25K or even 10K. I would take 5K, heck its a side job (do it on the weekend :D). I cant install 20+ a year anyways not enough volume to do that.

I guess the margin is there because of the limited installs.


But if you think that many CI firms are making a huge margin and just raping their customers

I 100% do believe they take advantage of customers. In terms of the fact the customers are buying something they have no clue about. Sellers can always put a premium on something a customer cant comparison shop. I saw that when I was quoted systems but I know touchscreens dont cost 3K ;)

and that is that 1080p requires HDCP authentication

I thought 1080p is simply a resolution?

My setup.

PS3 is 1080P
JVC 61" is 1080P

Autopatch Switch sends the video signal from PS3 to JVC. It works, Why is there still debate over that?

I know component could carry the bandwidth of the 1080p signal, I'm talking about a weakness with sources and displays needing HDCP.

HDCP is for someone else to worry about, I dont care about it nor do I need to know anything about it.


Lets just conclude that Autopatch has no problem sending the 1080p signal. The HD video cards have high enough bandwidths and the guy at extron is blow smoke up your butt.

I 100% do believe they take advantage of customers. In terms of the fact the customers are buying something they have no clue about. Sellers can always put a premium on something a customer cant comparison shop. I saw that when I was quoted systems but I know touchscreens dont cost 3K ;)
Sigh. That's just silly and such comments can be thrown at any profession including yours in spades. The last sentence is also inaccurate as touchscreens most certainly can and do cost 3K and much more. The fact that you don't think they are worth 3K is a different issue.

Otherwise nice thread.

Ok, forget the HDCP stuff... it currently doesn't matter because no company wants to encode their content with it yet. HDCP compliance won't matter til they do, which might be never.

All I knew about it was from before there was really any content yet, and everyone was freaking out about the limits of HDCP.

The last sentence is also inaccurate as touchscreens most certainly can and do cost 3K and much more.

Lol, very true. My favorite touchscreen is the AMX MVP-8400i... MSRP of $5800. And I know you can get ELO to make screens of any size... I'd bet a 70" touch screen would be pretty expensive.

lol, QQQ yes I mean they are not worth 3K. I know they can cost even more then that.

so I still have my hardware costs around 25K.....

1 CQC $895
4 Samsung Q1 touchscreens $3600
2 PCs $2500
1.5 TB $1500 (Raid)
DVD changer $500
Lutron lighting system $3600
Rain8net $200
Thermostats $500
Run cat5e (or cat6) everywhere and use matrix switches that work over cat5e (structured wiring costs part of house, extra ethernet runs not much more)
A/V matrix switch $3000 ??
HT receivers in specific rooms $1000
Russound or Zantech amps in all other zones $1500
Speakers in all rooms (7 pairs x $250) $1750 HT room extra!!
Security/wireless Cameras $1200
PVR, HD Cable Box already owned and using...but will be able to share it in all rooms.


I'll ask you again, if your cost for equipment for the aforementioned system was 21k, what do you think you should sell it to a non-freind customer for? Fully installed, programmed, warranted, etc., and still make a profit that could sustain a business.

To sustain a business, I would have to first find out how many installs per year exist. I have no idea because Im just still finding out the cost stage.What I do know is that all local companies doing any sort of H/A rely on other core business first so I suspect the volume isnt good enough to create a viable business on its own.

This business case is hypothetical at best anyways, I have a cash cow of a job so Im not really thinking that hard.

I do think that price point for H/A has to come down so that people buying 200K and up can put in systems. Like 10-15K for a complete robust A/V distribution system is reasonable in my delusional mind (I did it for less). Sell it to the builders and then they can add it as an upgrade, just like 10K more in Granite countertops.

Builders I know build whole communities, 20-30 houses at a time. add 15K systems to 20 houses, take 4K of it and thats 80K...its a small start. I just think the reason houses dont have these systems is because of the price point and the industry seems to not care.

I would rather put it in 20 houses at 15K then 2 houses at 40K. If hypothetically thats the price point.

Who knows what the price point is to make it as common as air conditioning buts not its current price point.

You've touched on something I've often wondered about.....

In speaking with many professionals, the higher costs (perceived or real) often come from the labor of tweaking in a system to fit a client's needs. That's where margins get eaten up, constantly having to revisit a job site, to add some piece of functionality that was omitted or that the customer felt they needed (whether it was defined or not in the specs). And, each time some variation to a pre-defined system occurs, you are introducing additional possibilities of warranty calls, since they are done on the fly without being vetted and proven over several systems.

So......That leads me to my question for professional installers. It would seem that the real cash cow of this business is the turn-key pre-install for new construction. Develop a pre-defined system, install it as an optional upgrade to a home and walk away. It avoids having to tweak a system to a customer's desire, because the customer doesn't exist yet. And, it opens up the potential for continued revenue when the customer does appear and wants some modifications. Almost like ADT who often pre-wires homes for security in the hopes you'll see their sticker and join their cult.

I know how construction contractors beat up on subs for pricing, so maybe that's the hurdle, but I'm just surprised I don't hear this more as an option in new home construction.

Penngray, I think you said you were a software developer. What kind of hourly rate do you charge your customers? Do you think you are the only person/company that can do what you do? Do you think someone could do what you do "on the side" and charge less?

Just because you don't put a value on something, doesn't mean that others don't.

You could address EVERY business that exists this same way. Someone can do it cheaper. That doesn't mean that everyone who is more expensive is ripping off their clients. On this forum, it seems that the only business that isn't allowed to make a profit is a Custom Install business.

If you fix your own plumbing buying parts at home depot, do you think it should have cost the same if you hired a plumber?

And what other "core" business do CI firms rely on to allow them to do home automation? I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding about the custom install business.

I charge much less then IBM consultants would charge and Im definitely better then 95% of the because I fix what they screw up :D I make a great living,thanks for asking ;)

I just want Home Automation to be viable for everyone. I believe its way over priced at this time. Im sure they are not ripping off customers on some products except for selling $8000 touch screens or even $3500 touch screens. Now that is a rip off if the customer actually knew how much it costs to build them (I do, I have seen the process many times). If you think its not a rip off then you are either dumb about the product you sell or you have been dupped. Well actually if it costs a company that much to make them then they are crappy at producing them.

So I listed the hardware we can buy above to start Home Automation, how do you get from there (25K) to 50K or 100K??

There is no such thing as a "ferrari" thermostat or a "ferrari" video switch, they either do the job or they dont so any car analogy doesnt hold water here either.

In the end will I really care to do some installs part time? Who knows, it would be just a hobby for me. Something to do on the weekend for friends.

And what other "core" business do CI firms rely on to allow them to do home automation? I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding about the custom install business.

lol, I dont misunderstand it. Every single company I talked with in NORTHERN florida that can install a Home Automation systems is FIRST a Home Theater electronics store, a security company or a structured wiring company. There isnt enough volume in H/A for them to make it the sole business. Remember I just moved into the new house I built with a builder friend, I did all this research last year.

You've touched on something I've often wondered about.....

In speaking with many professionals, the higher costs (perceived or real) often come from the labor of tweaking in a system to fit a client's needs. That's where margins get eaten up, constantly having to revisit a job site, to add some piece of functionality that was omitted or that the customer felt they needed (whether it was defined or not in the specs). And, each time some variation to a pre-defined system occurs, you are introducing additional possibilities of warranty calls, since they are done on the fly without being vetted and proven over several systems.

So......That leads me to my question for professional installers. It would seem that the real cash cow of this business is the turn-key pre-install for new construction. Develop a pre-defined system, install it as an optional upgrade to a home and walk away. It avoids having to tweak a system to a customer's desire, because the customer doesn't exist yet. And, it opens up the potential for continued revenue when the customer does appear and wants some modifications. Almost like ADT who often pre-wires homes for security in the hopes you'll see their sticker and join their cult.

I know how construction contractors beat up on subs for pricing, so maybe that's the hurdle, but I'm just surprised I don't hear this more as an option in new home construction.
Robert,

While I don't want to attempt to discuss the issue in this thread, I didn't want to let your post go by without anyone commenting. It's an excellent, excellent post that's asking a lot of the right questions. Rest assured everyone from custom installers all the way up to billion dollar companies have contemplated (and in many cases attempted) it. I'd say right now it's still a work in progress.

Clearly a key factor is reducing price is to come up with pre-done systems that you can install with minimal modifications in each successive customer site. Otherwise, the programming work (and spelunking required to figure out what programming you need to do) can be very significant, because the customer is going to expect it to work just right every time and that can be quite painful to do if you've not installed that exact set of components a number of times before and worked out how to deal wtih any quirks that they might have (and they often have plenty of quirks.)

So I think that if you took that system above and completely standardized it and had all the user interfaces and events and logic worked out ahead of time, and built in plenty of flexibility by using CML pretty widely to wrap devices and do the complex logic (so that you can tweak it easily for the particular customer), then you could about get it down to charging for physical install/setup time plus margin, which are semi-knowable values.

Otherwise, you'd be taking a pretty big chance setting a fixed price (unless you were really experienced and could make a reasonable call on what it was going to take, even then you could get screwed I'm sure.)

And you could always have a few variations on the system, where you could leave out a this, that or the other (which would amount not to really tweaking, but just removing stuff from your standard configuration, which is pretty easy and safe to do.)

But, if you have available work from people wanting you to come in and automate their existing systems, and you don't have any immediate work doing a pre-fab system, which kind of requires that you are going into 'virgin territory' of which there is a lot less than the slutty kind, what do you do?

This business case is hypothetical at best anyways, I have a cash cow of a job so Im not really thinking that hard.

Funny how it's okay to have a "cash cow" business when it's your business, but when it's someone else's business, they're taking advantage of people. :) I used to be very bitter about my boss' stinginess when I was an employee, but now that I own my own business, I understand him a LOT better. I'm still trying not to be an a-- like him, but I know where he's coming from now.

The fact is, there is no such thing as price gouging unless there's a monopoly situation. As long as it's an open market, you charge what the market will bear. I DO think custom installers are making ridiculous amounts of money, but it's because people are PAYING ridiculous amounts of money. If at some point everyone just said, "You know what? screw $50K! I'm just not gonna have home automation," guess what? prices would go down. By the same token, if a bunch more guys like you set up shop (assuming your views on price don't change once it's YOUR business), the expensive installers would lower their prices. (If the demand shrinks, or the supply grows, prices must fall.)

That said, if you want to do MY home automation setup for a labor cost of $5K, I'll fly you out to my location. :D

David

David,

Your post is spot on except you fall into a couple of the same incorrect assumptions that you are responding to.

1. The fact that CI's sell high priced systems doesn't mean they are making "ridiculous amounts of money" (even though I know you said that without any negativity attached) any more than the fact I'd assume the same about a small software company that sells 50K software systems. Last I noticed MS makes BILLIONS selling software that costs a few hundred dollars per seat. My point simply is that the fact that the average sales size for a company is "large" does not equal "ridiculous amounts of money". And of course in the end what matters is NET profit.

2. I suspect that most custom installers would LOVE for you to be right. Unfortunately, you aren't. I don't think you'll find a lot of wealthy custom installers any more than you'll find a lot of wealthy electricians.

I'm sure not saying we are all poor - just that like any industry I think most people pay the bills, perhaps a little more. Only a very small number make a very good wage.

Lol, very true. My favorite touchscreen is the AMX MVP-8400i... MSRP of $5800. And I know you can get ELO to make screens of any size... I'd bet a 70" touch screen would be pretty expensive.


What makes a 8.4" touchscreen worth $5800?

active matrix LCD, integrated VOIP, and all AMX trouchscreens have fully programmable microprocessors (just like the masters) which is why all their touchscreens cost so much.

Not saying I agree that it should cost that much, but that's how much they charge (and not really that since they only sell to dealers who don't sell it for that much).

.

Posters like this will not receive help from me and I love a great debate. I deal with hands on automation day in day out. There is a value associated with a dealer.

To be fair though, he never said service from a dealer/installer was worth a little or a lot, he was talking about markup on some types of equipment, which has a lot of sources along the food chain, and is not the same thing as paying for a service.

I think that some of this comes from the fact that installers don't seem to want to put the real price on their service, but instead they try to spread it out in the equipment costs. In a way I can see that, since the customer can't claim that they didn't receive a piece of equipment that had cost X, whereas they can claim that this or that service wasn't rendered sufficiently to warrant X. And the customer might be more likely to haggle about service costs I guess.

But one of the things that installers tell us that they are uncomfortable with with a product like ours is that they cannot sell proprietary hardware with it, therefore the price of the hardware is a known value to the customer, therefore they cannot mark it up and would have to put the real cost of their service into the contract and that makes them uncomfortable. Not that they cannot mark up the hardware if they are getting it at dealer cost of course, but they just can't distribute what is really payment for their service around in the hardware, and give the customer a seemingly lower price on that service.

.

I think that some of this comes from the fact that installers don't seem to want to put the real price on their service, but instead they try to spread it out in the equipment costs. In a way I can see that, since the customer can't claim that they didn't receive a piece of equipment that had cost X, whereas they can claim that this or that service wasn't rendered sufficiently to warrant X. And the customer might be more likely to haggle about service costs I guess.
The above reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of the CI business. I don't want to debate it too much, and it's also off topic to this thread. The mistake is in assuming that the business model for one industry (in this case the computer consulting industry) transposes to another (in this case the CI industry), but that's often not the case.

It's not the least bit uncommon for many industries to have their profits "spread out" between services and hardware. A dentist charges xx for his services. He also often makes money on the materials. Does anyone honestly think the price the dentist pays the local lab to make a fake tooth is what he charges the patient? Does that mean he's "not putting the real price on his service, but instead trying to spread it out in the equipment costs". I guess you can put it that way but that's the way the profession works.

In the cell phone industry they give away "free" ;) phones.

And so on...

The above reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of the CI business. I don't want to debate it too much, and it's also off topic to this thread. The mistake is in assuming that the business model for one industry (in this case the computer consulting industry) transposes to another (in this case the CI industry), but that's often not the case.


Geez. Lighten up. If it's a misunderstanding, it's not mine. I'm just saying what we've been told by more than a few installers, that they don't feel comfortable with our product because of exactly that issue, that they cannot distribute the costs of their service in the hardware markup, because the price of the hardware is well known. My position is always that, in the end, the end overall cost of the solution is what counts, but I'm just repeating what I've been told.

Maybe I'm missing something here but from where I set here on the outside it appears all three of you are saying much the same thing.

And yes if I were to be presented with a $5K bill for a $800 PC expect to be questioned about it even though I know at a general level that the cost of your buildings, trucks, taxes, insurance, labor etc are rolled into it.

.

active matrix LCD, integrated VOIP, and all AMX trouchscreens have fully programmable microprocessors (just like the masters) which is why all their touchscreens cost so much.

Not saying I agree that it should cost that much, but that's how much they charge (and not really that since they only sell to dealers who don't sell it for that much).


I am sure it is a very nice touchscreen computer, but the list prices on things like this seem crazy to me, I hope nobody is paying that price. I know the C.I. guys have to do a lot of work setting up a system so I wouldn't mind paying a premium on hardware but that price shocked me.

You know I'm a DIY by heart. I've been a long timer member of AVS but I'll tell you one thing I've lost respect for the AVS Forum and most of it's members. Too closed minded and "The dealer is out to rip them off" attitude.

Im the most open minded person you probably will ever meet. Dealers are out to make a profit no doubt and I dont have any problem if customers want to spend 3-5 times what they really need to spend. It happens daily, we choose what we want to waste money on and we also individually define what really is wasted money.

My attitude is not against any CI, its against the fact that the industry and almost all of them on here are simply against any thread that discusses why Home Automation doesnt have to cost 50K. I dont understand that at all. If I was in the industry I would want volume and more volume. I want every new house being built to be screaming for HA installs. I would want to have turnkey solutions so I could install them as simple as Central Air or Central Vac.

I listed almost all pieces of hardware involved with HA, no one really debated them instead the wagons circle and the CIs defend the high price and posted that Im insane to think great Home Automation can be done for easily under 50K.

Its probably the fact that we need to simply remove the whole idea that this stuff is custom. It should be simply standard in all new homes.

Sure the really high end, really special needs stuff that the billionaires want can still exist but general HA should not need a CI in the future.

Back to the original idea of the thread.

It was to simply going over HA costs and get a value on HA so I could have a price point for my friend who is going to start building in a bit.

Im the most open minded person you probably will ever meet.
Then why do you say this:
My attitude is not against any CI, its against the fact that the industry and almost all of them on here are simply against any thread that discusses why Home Automation doesnt have to cost 50K.
Could you please point out the posts in this thread where "almost all the CI's are against why it doesn't have to cost 50K".

Because I believe Fletch was simply pointing out that if you were operating as a businessman and installing what you installed for someone else you'd have to charge a lot more.

As for you, I thought this thread was a nice change from your constant CI bashing and trolling in these forums.

I deal with hands on automation day in day out.

Been in the distribution industry for 18 years. I did some of the first RF handheld Picking automation 15 years ago.

I have researched and developed or managed every aspect of High end auotomated warehousing.

Everything from WiFi touchscreens to simple RF terminals. You know what it takes to have touchscreens work in -18C?


We have done everything from build stacker systems that can move 1800 LBS pallets at 100 feet per minute to moving cases at 200 feet per minute. All in the end were designed and built by house because we saved millions on them.

QQQ, I dont want to bash. Heck I respect what they do, I think its really cool and Im jealous they get to do it and I dont for a profession, although I love what I do.

Maybe its just how I read it but I felt once again it was an attack on someone thinking things could be cheaper.

Geez. Lighten up. If it's a misunderstanding, it's not mine. I'm just saying what we've been told by more than a few installers..
If I reacted strongly it's only because I think the way you worded your post, perhaps unintentionally suggested dishonesty on the part of CI's.

I understand what you are saying but my point was are you truly interpreting/understanding what those CI's are telling you? I think you are, but I think there are some subtleties you may be missing not having come from this industry. Perhaps we can continue this offline sometime.

I think its the wording.....

I DO NOT believe CIs are dishonest. I dont know how to explain it though and Im sure the "Being ripped off" doesnt explain it.

I just believe that standard Home Automation shouldnt cost 50K. Based on the listed hardware costs lost in this thread. I want to prove that to my friend who has quotes from local companies. He wont buy anything at that price.

QQQ, I dont want to bash. Heck I respect what they do and I think its really cool.

Maybe its just how I read it but I felt once again it was an attack on someone thinking things could be cheaper.
Fair enough but that's how a lot of your posts come off to me. My position is that what i see guys like you and IVB and RobertMe and countless others doing is great. I also continue to be interested in CQC which I'm testing on the machine I'm typing on.

Robert and IVB are increadible, IVB has done so much. Im just starting. Im so excited about what I have done so far but its just a start.

Those guys also can word things better then I do. I know that for sure.

.

I just believe that standard Home Automation shouldnt cost 50K.
That's fine but what you or I believe doesn't matter much. It's a very very simple matter of economics/market forces and supply and demand.

People were posting similar stuff in the digital projectors forum for years - "it's absurd that a front projector costs more than a rear projection television". Well, for the first time it doesn't. But that doesn't mean people were being taken advantage of when it did. It's all about supply and demand.

I've been looking at UMPC's with 7" screens. Still running around 1K. Yet I can get a laptop with a 15" screen for $599! Obviously from a parts perspective that 7" UMPC should cost less than that 15" laptop. And I'm quite sure that when tons of people want them they probably will. Like you, I can say "I don't believe a UMPC should cost $999". But I look upon it as a simple matter of market forces and supply and demand.

And then there's the chicken and egg argument. "If they'd lower the price more people would buy them". Well, sort of. I think the market place will work it out.

Heck that 42" Fujitsu plasma they was dealer cost of $14,000 and sold for $20000 is now selling for $4500.

lmao....you say now....if someone buys a 42" plasma today for $4500 they are simply ripped off. Im sorry but they didnt do there homework on that 50" Panny (2nd best out there) are $2000. I know that because I own one for that, it could be even less now because that was 2 months ago.


I also dont buy the car anology with home automation. There isnt that much of a different for standard home automation. It either changes the channels on the TV, plays movies, Turns lights on or off, set security or it doesn't. It either works 24x7 or it doesnt. I guess you could have "gold plated" upgrade stuff but why? It really doesnt work smoother, or longer or faster, It doesnt sit in your hand better so what is really different.

I have seen a 70K system recently. My friends couldnt tell my system wasnt 100K when comparing the two so what makes it different?

I also dont buy the car anology with home automation. There isnt that much of a different for standard home automation. It either changes the channels on the TV, plays movies, Turns lights on or off, set security or it doesn't.
And as long as the wheels on a car turn they are all the same ;) :).

Who are you and I too cast this as fact. For the lower tax bracket I just look at these high end products as nice but not within my reach at this time. I also look at this and many customers really like the' toys' and with that is value. Some have homes all over the world and when they return they don't want to figure out the system.

Im in the highest tax bracket, I have a home in Canada and here, I love toys. You would be surpised how many people like me dont accept the costs of HA. I think there is a market there that needs to have focus. Every house being built in my area ( 10 mile radius ) will start around $300 and go up to and passed $1 million.

My friends wants something like I have but I obviously dont want to tell him go on Ebay and buy this and that, use this software, etc. He cant do it. I cant let him do it :) Heck, all friends now call me when their router doesnt work (Yuck! ;) )

I want cheaper Home Automation. It does sound like everyone else does too. Im impatience so HURRY UP!! :D

And as long as the wheels on a car turn they are all the same

hehe....
not exactly, Im sure everyone can tell how much smoother or more powerful a higher end car is. You can not get that same feeling of difference that is why I dont think the analogy fits here.

.

hehe....
not exactly, Im sure everyone can tell how much smoother or more powerful a higher end car is. You can not get that same feeling of difference that is why I dont think the analogy fits here.
You can in countless ways get the same feeling of difference. It is NOT related only to the hardware selection, it is related to a large body of factors.

The different between a state of the art home automation system is evident in every aspect from the wiring...

http://www.cedia.net/awards/2006_awards/ds_bo.php

...to the GUI and on and on. This is where having a respect for another persons field and realizing you likely don't know as much as you think can go a long way. I am not an IT person and would never hazard to try and tell you that "there's no difference whatsoever between MS SQL Server and Oracle. The fact that I don't know enough and haven't experienced enough to know the difference doesn't mean there isn't one.

We do agree that price is NOT the only determinant and the fact that a person is spending xxx does not necessarily mean it's going to be better than a person spending xx.

Executive Summary of my point: Be very careful - you very well might be installing a $50K HA system, cuz that's how many hours it could take you to get it all done to perfection in your buddy's wife's opinion. The only way to avoid the pricetag is 1)DIY, in which case labor is free, or 2)reduce your idea of "perfection" and custom-fit to someone's needs.

Here's a random data point that I threw out in this thread. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9328719&&#post9328719) I've personally given going pro much thought, given that I'm pretty much a management consultant by trade anyhow. My current gig is inhouse consulting and oversight over large complex systems implementations, but HA & HT implementation is the same thing, just a different area of functional expertise.

In order for me to install $12K of eBay "deep discount" level equipment, probably $18K-$25K at new-level pricing, I personally will need 1200 manhours. That breakdown SWAG is:
- 700 hours of "work"
- 300 hours of dumb mistakes and ratholes
- 200 hours of learning

Hence, if I was a total pro and had done this many times, I could probably install $25K of goods in 700 hours. If I were to do this right now for a 2nd time, I'd probably still need 900 hours or so as I'd make new dumb mistakes and re-learn other stuff.

Even if I lived in BFE, I'd still expect a bare minimum of $50/hour given that you wouldn't pay benefits or social security or health insurance. That's $35K of labor to install $25K of parts. I *do not* live in BFE, so if I were to do it around here, I would expect more like $75-$90/hour. That means I would expect $50K-$65K in labor to install $25K of parts.

That means I consider my system to be a $60K-$90K install. Of course, for this $$, I get a total custom-fit solution that behaves how I want when I want and looks exactly the way I like it.

In my situation I chose to spend the time as it's a fun thing to learn, but if there are folks out there who don't want to be sucked into the vortex I'd suggest they spend the $$.

.

When my wife and I were looking for a new mini van, the max I would spend was 20K as I'm just throwing the money away after all (in my view).

lmao, so are we and I said the same thing...same price range too! A Used Toyota Sienna from a deal auction is what we are trying to get

I dont think its the same though.

I can not understand what "trimmings" I would be missing in my Home Automation system. Hence why is that 70K system better then my low cost DIY one? I dont know what it does or does better than mine. Even so at 3-4 times more expensive what does it do twice as well if we both have the same functionality.

Its a subjective debate of what is worth money and what isnt. Someone can always convince someone else that a $8000 Touchscreens is worth the money. Honestly, I dont care if they buy it, its thier money. We all choose where to waste our money. I have my special interests ;)

None of this has to do with the people that are okay with the current home automation costs. Its the other 95% of us that want affordable Home Automation. Since I can list almost all the hardware for a full HA house and its 25K where is the rest going?

The last few 250K projects I have done, TPs, remotes, HVAC, lighting, security it came out to about 600 hours.

Im coming from the software side....The time for the house structured wiring is excluded. Structured wiring companies do that stuff very well so why add it as a non-value expense but from a cost stand point. let add the 5K for all wiring in my new house. Wow, 250K thats a big house!!!


IVB, Yes you and I have spend X hours. I dont keep track because its a hobby, lots of fun and it keeps me learning and at home.

Now if I was to make a business case for this. I would take my development, shrink wrap it and install it. Why does it need to be different? I believe you write functionality to a device once and only once. You write a screen once and only once.

I could probably install $25K of goods in 700 hours.

I wouldnt do any wiring.....700 hours?? My 3800 sqft home was wired in way under 40 hours. Component video, ethernet, security, central vac. 22 in ceiling speakers might take 11 hours. I was doing them at 30 minutes per speaker.
So hooking up all components in closet was about 10 hours. Lighting special wiring? Nope, just use RadioRA.



I just dont see 700 hours of work for standard home automation and I have a decent size home. Also remember we are trying to work this for standard homes. I dont know of any one sub spending 700 hours on anything in my house.

I am listening though guys........

even though I have 25K in hardware...the time to get it installed, clean everything up and make it look professional and work will be easily another 25K in time.

Bingo. In reality that $800 PC (parts) is being sold for $1000 to $1300. Cost include parts, labor,warranty, personal service, business expenses (lights, tools, ads, warranty expense, etc)

Yes and I think that's the point Dean was trying to make. The average Joe and otherwise intelligent person doesn't get this part. All they see is a $1300 bill for a PC they know they could have bought from Dell for $800 and cry foul. They are completely oblivious to the value added that comes for the extra $500. If the same box comes with an AMX/Crestron/Elan/etc sticker on it they have no frame of reference and hence no extra grief in explaining.

I see no rip off or lie in this. CI is not the only industry that collects costs and profits across expenses, hardware, labor, knowledge, skill and creativity. It all ends up costing the same in the end no mattter how the bookkeeping is done. Costs must be covered and a profit made or it's not a business. If it's not a business it won't be there when the average Joe calls for service or upgrades somewhere down the road.

Summary: 2 main points:
Point 1) You must have had new construction. I did have wiring included, and there's no chance I could have done a retrofit any faster than I did.

Point 2) You're assuming a cookie-cutter approach which may not work as folks may not like:
a) your look&feel
b) your set of functionality ( they may want something different)
c) they may have stuff they want you to use as their old installer sold them it

Im coming from the software side....The time for the house structured wiring is excluded. Structured wiring companies do that stuff very well so why add it as a non-value expense but from a cost stand point. let add the 5K for all wiring in my new house. Wow, 250K thats a big house!!!
....
I wouldnt do any wiring.....700 hours?? My 3800 sqft home was wired in way under 40 hours. Component video, ethernet, security, central vac. 22 in ceiling speakers might take 11 hours. I was doing them at 30 minutes per speaker.
So hooking up all components in closet was about 10 hours.

That must have been new construction, using someone who's done it before. In my case, it does include wiring, roughly 150 runs if you add up the
1a) audio (10rooms for audio with speaker-wire, 18-2, and CAT5, that's 30 runs)
1b) video (3 of the above rooms have video, that's 3 runs),
2) Security/Elk (60 sensors plus various keypads/etc, so that's 70 runs),
3) Network (10runs)
4) Telephone (10 runs)
5) CCTV (8 cameras with 18-2, CAT5, RG6, so 24 runs)
6) Various HA like HVAC, irrigation, etc, perhaps another dozen.

In a retrofit but still generally simple, I think I estimated something like 1.5 hours per run on average, so that's ballpark 225 hours for wiring.

Around here, electricians charge $90/hour, even LV ones get $75/hr min, so you're locked in to $11K min just for that.

Now if I was to make a business case for this. I would take my development, shrink wrap it and install it. Why does it need to be different? I believe you write functionality to a device once and only once. You write a screen once and only once.


Agreed, which is why I said that the only way to shrink the estimate is by reducing the custom-fit. If you shrink-wrap it, you've eliminated the custom fit. But keep in mind that not everyone looks at a UI the same way, and not everyone will want the "one-penngrey-size-fits-all" set of functionality and screens.

Given that you want to "product"-ize this, you've now got to get some serious professional guidance as to what makes a good UI. I don't just mean the pretty colors and spinning fans and animation on a page, I mean the underlying information architecture and flow that comprise a good system. That is not an easy task.

The first time you find someone who doesn't like the shrink-wrap, you're blown out of the water. So now you have to play the same game that others who are much better than you or I play - how to make a shrink wrap product that works for everyone, and if someone doesn't like the veneer you've put on top of your system then they'll reject the whole thing unless you "just change this one bit". But, changing that one bit destroys the cookie cutter you've built, and will require retesting it all.

Oh, and by the way, you better hope no one actually has any equipment they want to keep (ie, an existing receiver that isn't part of the product you've built) because the serial protocol is going to be different and hence your screens may/not work as originally anticipated.

Here's a good example of how this could screw you: I used to use my Denon3805 for whole-house audio. It had a fast serial interface, but it was 3z only. I bought a Xantech ZPR68, but it's got a damn slow serial interface. So slow in fact, that I cannot use a volume up/down command button as it takes nearly 1.5s to respond to each click. If I want to change the vol by 5 db's in one direction, it takes 20s via the serial interface using a vol up/down command button.

I had to recode my screens to use sliders, which is lower WAF, but much faster. You'll have that same problem if someone wants to use their existing equipment and it doesn't work quite like the stuff you've got.

I'm not trying to discourage you - I think you've got a great idea. But I think you're seriously underestimating how colossally fragmented the HA hardware industry is, and how hard it is to glue all this crap together into something that is cohesive unless you can mandate every last bit.

IVN

The last few 250K projects I have done, TPs, remotes, HVAC, lighting, security it came out to about 600 hours.

I'm finishing up another Monday. Full lighting, shades, distributed HD, theater, security, audio all over, cameras, a few others.. for about 700 man hours. Our man hours are collected on a electronic work order. So we know all the details of the job every day. I can pull it up from my house. Every project we have in 3 states, from proposal to waiting for the final punch.

If you can do a 250K project in 600manhours, your team is seriously more experienced and just flat-out better than I am. Even assuming a $125K/hour billrate for the 600 hours, that's $75K in labor to install $175K in parts. Given that all my parts brand new would be around $25K, you're 7x more productive than I am assuming equal difficulty per dollar.

Obviously difficulty does not scale 1:1 by dollar cost, but even if I reduce that to a 3x multiplier, this now means that even if I double my efficiency, you're still 50% faster than I am. In other words, I would lose every single competitive bid against you as you could easily undercut my bid and still make craploads of $$.

Yet one more reason for me to stay the heck away from professional installs. There's so many people that are efficient at doing this, it's now a commodity situation. Sure, it might be a rare commodity right now, how many folks out there really know how to setup HA systems. But, here's one more thought to this:

My folks started a computer store in 1983 when no one was doing it. They made $$ hand over fist for 3 years. Then PC's got commoditized, and sears started selling PCs. In the next 2 years, my folks lost all the $$ they made and then some because they got into a commoditizing and collapsing market. They are just now digging out from under that hole, and literally nearly every friend they have is retired.

For HA, Sears won't do it, but MS already has begun, as has HomeDepot. Be careful how you place your bets, because getting into HA installs professionally and fulltime right now could easily be financial suicide unless you can get out at the drop of a hat.

It depends on what part of that market you are looking at. MS and HomeDepot are going to be selling least common denominator, end user installed stuff. They aren't going to be competing with the $50K and up type of installation, or probably even the $20K and up installation. I don't think that there's anything to worry about from any mass market company in that area, because it's just not what they do.

Not to say that they might not get involved in that area via a subsidiary or buying into someone in that area or something like that. But I've been told a number of times by MS folks that if it's not something that they can sell for $300 or less (the commonly held threshold for broad market hardware devices), then MS just isn't into it. So customized installations, I just don't see that at all.

They are certainly trying to push MCE as part of an overall system, but they aren't in a position to provide anything else really. And MCE is not going to be used as the basis for a serious automation system, just as a media client mostly. Installers just won't trust a box as the main automation system if it's not locked up in a closet, which is totally not what MCE is.

2 points here:
1) Level at which folks trust an M$ product as their engine
2) Level at which HomeDepot gets involved.
------------------
You're arguing the point at which this becomes diminishing returns, my point is that it certainly will at some point.

Today the statement is "installers just won't trust a box as the main automation system if _ which is not what MCE is".

In 2000, the statement was "companies just won't trust a PC as a dedicated server if ___ which is just not what Windows98 is".

In 1990, the statement was "companies just won't trust a computer as a filing system since it can't ____, which is totally not what OS2/Windows is".

Also, I don't agree on the price point that HDepot or some other mass market player will get involved in, I certainly think they'll try and grab the $10K level. They can grab the simple part of the market with the "just do it my way and buy all my crappy stuff".

This leaves cookie-cutter/product-ized folks like Penngrey competing for the >$10K but <$(price at which you expect custom-fit) market.

I cannot imagine there's that many wives out there who are willing to pay $30K for a system ($25K in parts, $5K in profit) and throwing away everything they've already bought without expecting a custom-fit solution, especially if cheaper alternatives begin coming to market.

Even if there was a lot of MS and Home Depot-type solutions out there for end users (or, more likely, builders or low-level contractors) to easily install, that's fine. It just brings more money into this industry. The audio/visual/control industry is growing far faster than people can keep up. I know integrators that get flown all over the US to install large-scale stuff because there aren't enough good ones out there. At the residential side, if end users started installing their own automation, that means it becomes something they want. And there'll be a point where they either have to say "ok, that's all I can do by myself therefore, that's it" or they'll want more. That is a new customer to the industry.

If anyone thinks they can offer a better solution for a lower price or whatever, then they should start doing integrations. It's competition that drives prices down. You don't like the price a CI charges? Start charging less and they'll either have to match you, beat you (and make you match them), or suffer business loss. That's simple market economics.

But like I said before, you can't expect to live off eBay. eBay is for people who have no time limit and aren't quoting prices to possible customers. Not to mention a possible lack of warranty.

Today the statement is "installers just won't trust a box as the main automation system if _ which is not what MCE is".

In 2000, the statement was "companies just won't trust a PC as a dedicated server if ___ which is just not what Windows98 is".

In 1990, the statement was "companies just won't trust a computer as a filing system since it can't ____, which is totally not what OS2/Windows is".

The difference though is that all those things were things that *companies* did, which is a completely different thing. A company can implement the sort of regular maintenance and scheduled backups that make that kind of thing a workable solution. That's not going to happen in the home environment.

So this is a different equation. This is installer X who has to keep the system in the customer's house running reliably or he get's a bad reputation, and what the whole purpose of MCE is (which is as and user, daily use, media client.) So to make the equation correct, you'd have to add "while the kids play video games on them" to all the statements above.

It's one thing to say that we'll move from a non-PC based automation industry to a PC based one, which I completely believe of course, but that's not the same argument as whether that PC should be locked away in a closet vs. being banged on all day by kids and relatives, when it comes to an installer making a decision as to which product to use. If the installer has an option where in one MCE is something that can go to hell and it won't affect the overall automation system, and one where it is the overall automation system, I think that's a pretty straightforward decision for the installer.

The difference though is that all those things were things that *companies* did, which is a completely different thing. A company can implement the sort of regular maintenance and scheduled backups that make that kind of thing a workable solution. That's not going to happen in the home environment.

So this is a different equation. This is installer X who has to keep the system in the customer's house running reliably or he get's a bad reputation, and what the whole purpose of MCE is (which is as and user, daily use, media client.) So to make the equation correct, you'd have to add "while the kids play video games on them" to all the statements above.

It's one thing to say that we'll move from a non-PC based automation industry to a PC based one, which I completely believe of course, but that's not the same argument as whether that PC should be locked away in a closet vs. being banged on all day by kids and relatives, when it comes to an installer making a decision as to which product to use. If the installer has an option where in one MCE is something that can go to hell and it won't affect the overall automation system, and one where it is the overall automation system, I think that's a pretty straightforward decision for the installer.

Perhaps I'm not explaining myself clearly enough. My point is not "will M$ by themselves corner this market". My point is: "Should someone *start* a business now that's going to create a solution that is designed to be generally pre-configured but still cost >$25K as it may not be viable in 3-5 years"? (ie, the OP)

For example, with the M$ case, they and HD could partner. HD could create a dedicated HA controller tivo-style, where they use a locked down version of Windows Home Server 2008 that the regular user is not able to access. Only the person in the house who's setting it up, or some other mechanism. Then, they've got the low end of the market, C4/AMX/Crestron keep the upper end of the market, and there's no real middle class that's sizable enough to produce sufficient ROI for a viable business. If you want complete HA and can handle pre-canned UI/etc, get the mass market stuff. If you want complete HA but want custom-fit, get the nice stuff".

Of course, i'm not saying there's zero market share, or that this is all fact, but I've seen enough businesses targeted at the middle fail or get eaten up by one end or the other that I sure wouldn't want to throw my hat in the ring as an entry player right now. Especially given that there's pros like David Richardson who'd clean my clock with his level of effiency.

Conclusion.....

Im very happy to have picked CQC.
Im very happy Im able do DIY stuff (Home Automation, DIY Subs, etc)
Im very happy that I save extremely large amount of money and I dont have a problem buying off of ebay saving even more money.

.....My friend sadly isnt this lucky.


Never once actually did I consider this a profession to replace my current one, the profit couldnt compare but I did wonder if it could be a side gig or even a 2nd division of my company, ONLY new builds and not retrofits.

I still believe all wiring involved for houses from 2500 to 4000 sq ft would be done by local structured wiring companies, there are no real special needs for wiring. I would make sure many extra runs of Cat5e (or Cat6) were done for all video so that ethernet and WiFi cover almost all the electronics communication needs. Speaker wiring I think is the only extra cost for the structured wiring company. Full House HA wiring definitely under 40 hours for any local structured wiring company to complete a whole house. The guys actually doing wiring in any house in my area only make $15/hr or less so if it was a business the cost isnt $75/hr....nice profit to charge that though ;)

I also still believe GUI screens never have to be different and therefore the software for HA is written once. Users accept what software companies give them all the time so there should be one viable and logical set of screens for every size of touch screen that offer all the functionality needed. Besides, new owners dont know any better anyways.


Even if MS got into the game, that is fine. We need to install their stuff too. Although,they will never integrate products from all over, they will never be open source so we have little to fear. I do believe a product that is open just like CQC will at some point fill this big void I have constantly complained about.

You could always hook up with some local installers, where they do the physical install and you do the 'software' part of it. That might work out better for what you are looking to do. You define some packages that you can support for a good price because they require reasonable customization per site, and the installers you work for know what your packages are and can work with you on that sites where they would make sense. I'm sure that there installers around who are quite competent on the physical side but feel less sure of themselves on the software/interface design side of things.

Thanks Dean, thats a good suggestion.

Went golfing on the weekend with the owner of a local security company that also does home entertainment installs. They just became a certified Control4 shop, they have always install Theater rooms with Sony products but they are starting to get into the HA game.

Interesting thread ...

Here is what I dont agree with.

QQQ stated that the primary goal of a business is to earn profit. I disagree. The primary goal of a business is to increase net worth. I do get a bit of a chub when I see those wiring pics from CEdia... It certainly does take more time and effort to do it right.

From a business perspective I think a service based business in general is at a loss because the business will generally die with the owner. Net worth then is zero. You have to build it to go beyond your own services. What happens if you get sick?

You better put some dollars in your quote for liability insurance. You touch the wiring and there is a fire and the insurance companies will be looking down the line to see whose insurance is going to share in the costs.

I just got back this week from looking at 4 installs that were AMX installations. In one installation the power box for the projector was wrapped in electrical tape and thrown into the joist space. The wiring for video was resting on the sharp end of a piece of corner bead while the end of the corner bead was cut through the electrical tape. In another the power was hooked with a similar situation where the standard 12/2 wire had a twist on connection to what looked like an old extention cord. The owners likely paid some really good coin to put this all together. Kind of makes me sick when I see this kind of mess. I always have to state straight out that when I see a mess like this coming out of the visible area that I cannot afford to inherit the wiring and pass on the job. I will supply the gear only unless some comes in and takes over the wiring job contract on their liability account.

There is good installers and there is bad installers. Nothing new here. I see a lot of bad stuff and I also see a lot of good stuff.

I dont think the originator of the thread meant to disparage anyone in the business. There is always people in here that think everything is a rip of when they put something together for next to nothing and didnt consider their time or their time equals zero value. This tends to be the biggest error. I made up thousands of projector mounts that were cnc laser cut plates and cnc machined mechanical arms with black metal hardware and powdercoated for under 100 for AVS members packaged and shipped to their door via a courier. Well of course some DIY guys come along and say they bought a hunk of pipe with some plumbing fixture and slapped a hunk of plastic or wood to it and it only cost them 50.00 ... It is always going to happen.

Generally you get what you pay for. All pricing is set based on the companies target market where they establish a price based on the quantity they have established in that market. If for example I was going to only cnc laser cut one mount and cnc machine also a quantity of one the price would be over 400.00 before I go to powder coat it using that same example. Consider a book of matches that you can buy for 2 cents or even take for nothing. If you were to produce that book of matches what would it cost you. The price is the price and is what it is for any product and arguing about it or pontificating its unfairness is a feckless exercise.

I like the array of stuff you got and I am getting some info on the cost of an upgrade to a HDMI on the autopatch.

I am looking for a complete best PC solution that can better or equal Crestron or AMX. Dont seem able to find anything yet but I like the premise of this thread. Also for the DIY guy there seems to be an abundance of used gear at unbelievable prices. I think I could make a good business out of buying used gear for the DIY guy. At least until Microsoft starts getting into the business. Look at what the Netgear AV800 does for a list price of 350.00. I have one of their wireless N routers with 6 devices and it goes through every inch of my house with over 200 mbps on every device. I also tryed out one of their over the house wire networking solutions and it was actually surprisingly good. Maybe I can talk Netgear into an experimental wireless home automation house. I like the fact that there is the lifted boundaries that wires possess.

Ok never mind I will start another thread. DIY Home Automation... Buying used parts vs wireless technology using wireless n... tablet pcs ... security ... and present equipment.

QQQ stated that the primary goal of a business is to earn profit. I disagree. The primary goal of a business is to increase net worth.
1. While one of the primary goals of a business certainly is to be profitable, I cannot find a statement by myself in this thread remotely close to that. I said that net profit is what truly matters, not gross, which is certainly true. Your gross profit on sales can be 50%, but if your expenses wipe it out and you make no net profit, you are losing money.

2. If I did say it, talk about splitting hairs as if we are sitting in a business class! The two are usually related (profit and net worth).

Profit and Net Worth are Mutually exclusive. Profit is just one aspect of possibly increasing net worth but not necessary a primary one. Consider one model where say I do custom installs and I am well known and get tons of work and make significant profits. If the business is wholly dependent on my being alive and suddenly I get sick or die the net worth is zero. Lets say I have a run of profit for 10 years at 125 gs. net .. Take a business that through training staff and carrying more overhead and was built in those ten years making zero profit but on the death of the owner the business can now with the infrastructure built to endure the sickness, death and has a future cash flow of 300,000 or even 125,000 net into perpetuity and which would you choose.. the one with no profits or the one with cashflow that is predicted to continue into perpetuity or future years. There is so many models where profit is the poorest gauge of how a business is doing. Too many vaguaries that can affect a good year that have nothing to do with how successful a business is doing. If one thinks of all the elements that make a successful business the net worth is King. There is thousands of ways I can show a profit for a suffering company that is about to go down the toilet.

Talking about finance on a fun forum ... I can almost without a doubt predict if everyone did it on every thread the NET Worth of AVS would decline.

I guess that it's a nomenclature thing maybe. If 'profit' means money that you take out of the business and give to the people who run it, the the more profit you take, it has to come out of the net worth of the company since it didn't go back into the company to build up its hardware and people resources. So 'net revenues' is probably the better term, but probably everyone got the point.

I'm just glad no one said the sky is blue or water is conductive or he'd have pointed out that the sky really isn't blue and that pure water really isn't conductive.

"Take a business that through training staff and carrying more overhead and was built in those ten years making zero profit but on the death of the owner the business can now with the infrastructure built to endure the sickness, death and has a future cash flow of 300,000 or even 125,000 net into perpetuity and which would you choose"

Depends if I was the dead owner or not.. I'd like to spend the profits while I was alive, personally.

I basically agree with you on the building net worth thing ( no profits means no dividends which makes for unhappy shareholders) , but that was an example open to abuse, sorry ;-)

"I 100% do believe they take advantage of customers. In terms of the fact the customers are buying something they have no clue about. Sellers can always put a premium on something a customer cant comparison shop. I saw that when I was quoted systems but I know touchscreens dont cost 3K "




You know I'm a DIY by heart. I've been a long timer member of AVS but I'll tell you one thing I've lost respect for the AVS Forum and most of it's members. Too closed minded and "The dealer is out to rip them off" attitude.

Posters like this will not receive help from me and I love a great debate. I deal with hands on automation day in day out. There is a value associated with a dealer. It may not be for anyone, but a novice providing a 25K service for a friend is in for an awakening. I'm sure in a few years that poster will understand exactly what I am talking about.


i agree, im also a DIY. and ill do my own stuff, but i have limitations, and i have no problem paying a proff. for things i dont do. but posts like this get to me because you've got some guy that hooked up some gear in his house and thinks he can do it for a living. i dont post much hear, but im also a installer, there's alot more to it then most think, especially when you get into all aspects of automation / low voltage....its alot more then hooking up A/V equipment....A LOT. but people like this guy trying to de-value a guys work is the biggest problem in this country.

i think you need a class in buisness managment (original poster) we dont gouge people. it so happens it costs money for our tools, our vans, our parts, our showrooms, our advertisment, our ridiculous rent for our building, paying for employees health plans, insurance........do i really need to go on? obviously extra cost is built into to cover future service calls on a big system. its not a hook it up and hope it works in 3 months because we cant afford to send a guy out for a day to fix the issues type thing.

The funny thing is that for every DIY that runs into an installer that they think tried to or did take advantage of them there is an installer who has has run into customers that have taken advantage of them. No one had a monopoly on that and there are stories to be told on both sides. Consumers are infamous for taken advantage of businesses in every way possible but it's totally naive and off base to group all consumers together. Ditto for the other way around.