Please forgive me if this has been addressed and I just missed it, but why the heck don't manufacturers of DLP PJs give any sub-$3k model the lense shift and zoom offered by virtually every LCD in existence? I'm genuinely baffled by this! Is it purely cost? That doesn't seem to make sense- consider a comparison of the Mits 1000U vs the Panny AX100U. Many reviews indicated that picture-wise these machines are fairly close in quality, with each having some minor strength vs the other but nothing overwhelming. But the Mit's streets for half the price! What would it cost to basically copy the Panny but put the guts/DLP engine in it?

Another poster elsewhere at AVS indicated LCD simply must be great, since it's popular (! :eek: ) And it's even eating into DLP sales. Gee, you think the utter lack of zoom or useful lense shift has anything to do with that? ;) Put another way, why does "DLP" ignore so many potential customers by failing to incorporate seeminly common placement flexibility features?

I'd genuinely like to know! :confused:

This is a really good question that I would love to hear an answer to. There must be some sort of technical limitation. It seem to me if anyone developed a DLP machine with good zoom and lens shift capabilities, it would absolutely kill in the market. So many of us are considering LCD largely because of the mounting flexibility for our rooms. I want to throw a 100" picture from 17" back with an about 7' ceiling, and my options are incredibly limited. I think LCD's are my only choice, but I would LOVE to have a DLP option as well.

Guy

Please man, watch your language. There's no reason to use profanity in your subject heading just to get attention.

and I do miss the lens shift from my Samsung 710.

Read here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8744974#post8744974) It's a thread that kind of explains it.

Please man, watch your language. There's no reason to use profanity in your subject heading just to get attention.

and I do miss the lens shift from my Samsung 710.

"Heck" is considered profanity?

Anyway, this subject is something I've been wondering myself.

I believe that this has been explained before and that it has to do with the 'optical' engine differences between LCD and DLP. IIRC, for LCD it is almost free (in relation to DLP) to offer lens shift.

Having owned 3 DLP projectors now, I have never felt a need for lens shift - once I do the math to set up the mount and screen - the need for lens shift has never been apparent. The mount always has the adjustment range needed and I've always been able to dial in a great image that fits the screeen exactly.

Regarding zoom lenses etc. - that is simple, the lens is one of the more expensive parts of a projector.

Long version into a short amount of space: lens shift requires that the actual video panel moves in relation to the lens and light source. This is less of a big deal with LCD because only the LCD panel has to move. With DLP the DLP panel AND the color wheel have to shift, making lens shift more complicated and more expensive.

But then everybody would have great looking pictures. Just kidding. DLP is certainly a little tougher to set up - but once it is it is worthwhile.

But then everybody would have great looking pictures. Just kidding. DLP is certainly a little tougher to set up - but once it is it is worthwhile.

Yep, generally, once your puppy is up and hung, it's really no longer an issue.

Long version into a short amount of space: lens shift requires that the actual video panel moves in relation to the lens and light source. This is less of a big deal with LCD because only the LCD panel has to move. With DLP the DLP panel AND the color wheel have to shift, making lens shift more complicated and more expensive.

More reason for us to want 3 chip DLP projectors: lens shift, great contrast, no rainbows/noisy-colorwheel/eyestrain, do we need more ?.

The wheel is the source of all evil.

Another poster elsewhere at AVS indicated LCD simply must be great, since it's popular (! :eek: ) And it's even eating into DLP sales. Gee, you think the utter lack of zoom or useful lense shift has anything to do with that? ;) :confused:

Heheheh
You caught that too huh?
I almost got into that exact explanation during that discussion, only to realize that it was a waste of my time.

Good catch!! :D

Another poster elsewhere at AVS indicated LCD simply must be great, since it's popular (! ) And it's even eating into DLP sales. Gee, you think the utter lack of zoom or useful lense shift has anything to do with that?

Rainbows/noisy-colorwheel/eyestrain/Headaches/artifacts in dark areas.

Some folks would have you believe that DLP blows.
They use the Rainbows,Noisy color wheel, artifacts in dark areas(well, DLP actually HAS dark areas), eyestrain, headaches etc.. as excuses to buy LCD.......

LCD has 2 things I can see going for it, and IMO they are:

Flexibility in mounting due to lens shift
Generally quieter

Some will say colors as well, but color uniformity due to the LCD panel alignment is an issue that has also been brought up MANY times,Panels changing color, nevermind SDE or it's cousin Smoothscreen.

It sure seems to me like they ALL have issues to deal with,and each person must select their drawbacks on what THEY can tolerate.

Obviously some issues are more evident than others on BOTH sides, but some of these are blown out of proportion IMO.

Please man, watch your language. There's no reason to use profanity in your subject heading just to get attention.

and I do miss the lens shift from my Samsung 710.
wow :rolleyes:

Some folks would have you believe that DLP blows.
They use the Rainbows,Noisy color wheel, artifacts in dark areas(well, DLP actually HAS dark areas), eyestrain, headaches etc.. as excuses to buy LCD.......

LCD surely has it's drawbacks, but don't dismiss the quoted problems, many people ARE bothered by some of it, and chose to go LCD because of it.

LCD surely has it's drawbacks, but don't dismiss the quoted problems, many people ARE bothered by some of it, and chose to go LCD because of it.

Yes, I HAVE seen discussions regarding RBE, MOST (NOT all) of it is from older units at lower speed wheels, some folks seem to be EXTREMELY sensitive to it.

Color wheel noise is also something, that has some merit, but it SEEMS to have been quelled a bit as well, maybe because these units are still fairly new, time will tell.

Some folks do get headaches/eyestrain as well it seems, why? I dunno.

These are some items that DO have some merit, some of it(as stated) MAY be in regards to older units, that have been greatly improved in these areas.

I PERSONALLY have no issues to speak of with DLP, and there are lots of other satisfied end-users as well.

As you stated, LCD DOES have it's share of issues as well.

Pick your poison is my motto, but I suggest folks that dismiss DLP with these issues in mind, look at the newer units, which may show alot of improvements over aged models.

Regards

Pick your poison is my motto, but I suggest folks that dismiss DLP with these issues in mind, look at the newer units, which may show alot of improvements over aged models.
That's a good advice.

Unfortunately, altough I really wanted to here different news, Rainbows still seem to be a not so small problem, with the fresh Optoms HD73, which has a 5x colorwheel and Darkchip3

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9659986&&#post9659986

Yes, I HAVE seen discussions regarding RBE, MOST (NOT all) of it is from older units at lower speed wheels, some folks seem to be EXTREMELY sensitive to it.

Color wheel noise is also something, that has some merit, but it SEEMS to have been quelled a bit as well, maybe because these units are still fairly new, time will tell.

Some folks do get headaches/eyestrain as well it seems, why? I dunno.

These are some items that DO have some merit, some of it(as stated) MAY be in regards to older units, that have been greatly improved in these areas.

I PERSONALLY have no issues to speak of with DLP, and there are lots of other satisfied end-users as well.

As you stated, LCD DOES have it's share of issues as well.

Pick your poison is my motto, but I suggest folks that dismiss DLP with these issues in mind, look at the newer units, which may show alot of improvements over aged models.

Regards

Well, I'm one of those people that DOES in fact have issues with RBE... very distracting and my guess is it would create headaches, strain and etc. with extended viewing. However, I admit I've not seen a DLP projector in about two years so it's quite posible I wouldnt' have issues with some of the current crop. Then again why would I take the risk even if I had somewhere I could go view them (I no longer do as the only brick and morter PJ store closed down here recently).

For me it's easy, as soon as 3 wheel DLP becomes affordable I'll probably buy one. Well, that is unless LCD improves its' technology even more!

You know...the irony of all this is they are often smaller. As in two pound portables and now mini LED 'pocket' PJs. Go figure.

That's a good advice.

Unfortunately, altough I really wanted to here different news, Rainbows still seem to be a not so small problem, with the fresh Optoms HD73, which has a 5x colorwheel and Darkchip3

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9659986&&#post9659986

OK, thats fair enough, but thats a pretty small sample you are using there I would say, if you think that everyone is the same, well then I don't know how to repond to that.
I could just as easily start showing threads in regards to LCD issues as well, but I see no need to do that.
My stated opinion still stands, older units will be worse, unfortunately for some folks, it may NEVER go away, and those folks will have LCD as a VIABLE option(not better or worse- better for them).

Then they can decide if they can live with THOSE issues, so my thoughts of picking your poison still stands.
I have nothing against LCD myself(why would I, I have no stock in Ti), I just see some folks(NOT pointing at you) acting like LCD is somehow perfect, and as we all know...

It isn't.

Lol. annoyances aside (and I mean rainbows etc.) I wish 720p LCDs looked as good as 720p DLPs, at the same price point. DLP does give the better picture for the $$, I don't argue with that for a moment.

Lol. annoyances aside (and I mean rainbows etc.) I wish 720p LCDs looked as good as 720p DLPs, at the same price point. DLP does give the better picture for the $$, I don't argue with that for a moment.

I agree. Both technologies have their shortcomings. Nothing yet is perfect. But ……. If the picture is your top priority then I feel DLP has the advantage.

For those of you LCD guys that say you saw RBE’s or have other issues. When I first bought my first DLP I was a little worried. I felt the ‘motion” thing as well. But after I had it for a couple of weeks it was like my brain got used to it and then I was like WOW – this picture is just so much better than that LCD I put in my storage room.

For those of you LCD guys that say you saw RBE’s or have other issues. When I first bought my first DLP I was a little worried. I felt the ‘motion” thing as well. But after I had it for a couple of weeks it was like my brain got used to it and then I was like WOW – this picture is just so much better than that LCD I put in my storage room.

But this gamble scares people. When someone finds out he does not react well to DLP, then he usually will not wait and see if he will accustom (even though he indeed might), he just think "omg, I spent $2000, I hope I can still get an exchange/refund before it's too late". Unless you buy from Costco...

I'm not really trying to start another "DLP vs LCD" debate. While YMMV, it's settled for me- I can watch DLP for 12 hours straight and never see a rainbow nor suffer any fatigue (aside from my butt falling asleep! :D ). Ooops, sorry...if "heck" is profane, "butt" must really be bad! ;) :p I have no axe to gring; while all my PJs have been DLP, I would buy an LCD if I felt it was a better value. If I wasn't so spooked by the horror stories of Sanyo's and Panasonic's warranties I'd probably already have one.

I doubt royalties could be the issue. After all, the holder of the patent would have no reason to gouge a DLP maker for any more $$$ than they charge an LDC maker. And even if it did cost $500 per liscence, the DLP would still be cheaper. Perhaps it's technically difficult to incorporate lense shift into a PJ with color wheels, but then if a couple manufacturers do it then that theory seems suspect.

The offset has never been a problem for me, either. I'm just aware that some people can't use them because the offset or throw range won't work in their room. A 2x zoom would really be nice IMO, but I suppose if you only added zoom without lense shift a DLP with a 2x lense zoomed all the way out would require a 12' ceiling!

Oh, well- someday maybe we'll have a 3 chip, 1080P DLP PJ for $999! :p The best of all possible worlds. :D

avoid the wheel

avoid the wheel

That's not helpful, nor does it have anything to do with the topic. Can't you drag your soapbox to another thread?

But this gamble scares people. When someone finds out he does not react well to DLP, then he usually will not wait and see if he will accustom (even though he indeed might), he just think "omg, I spent $2000, I hope I can still get an exchange/refund before it's too late". Unless you buy from Costco...

The thing is, only about .0000001% of people are sensitive to DLP rainbows. It seems like more because every single one of them posts on AVS, skewing the sample size. If you were to pick 100 random people off the street and make them watch a movie on a single-chip DLP, then without asking them any leading questions gauge their reactions afterwards, I guarantee there wouldn't be a single mention of "rainbows" or "color flashes".

Since I setup my PJ, I have only had 6 other people watch it, the SB and movies..
Thats a very small sample to be sure, but not 1 person has said anything negative, every single response had the line " Awesome" or "Unbelieveable" in there.
I have only asked them what they honestly think, noone has mentioned eye strain or rainbows.

My relatives came over to play cards last night, so I took my brother and brother in law downstairs to show them King Kong on HD DVD, needless to say my sister came down looking for us(heheheh- she was floored), and the guys were so entranced watching the movie(watching KK LOL), that the card game started about 1 1/2 hours after it was supposed to!!
My brother/law just about had to be pryed out of their seats, much to the chagrin of my GF. :D

Not that this is on topic with the OP, but the talk has moved into this...

I personally think a lot of people see rainbows but not everyone, I also think most people don't realize what is happening when they do see them. Everyone in my family does see RBE with complete ease, we don't go searching for it, it comes to us. I had an LCD but switched to DLP and took that risk. All I can say is in truth at first there was eye fatigue and strain say the first week at most and to posters credit many have said it takes a little bit of time for those that do see, to adjust and they were right imo. So today, zero fatigue, we still see them usually in high-contrast areas but they aren't causing any major issues and we've come to live with those and perhaps they are becoming less and less in number to us as well. We also all feel the picture we are getting is much much better then the LCD it replaced.

One of the reasons I went with a LCD the first time as I knew I was rainbow sensitive from a friends DLP projector was I thought about "others" watching it and seeing the rainbows, you know being courteous to them and I thought LCD was going to be just fine for me and it was for a good while. But in the end people don't come over to my house to watch movies no matter the screen size, they watch their movies at home on a 35" CRT via DVD at their leisure and are very happy with their own setup, they aren’t obsessive, they still see the same movie I do in the end. They come over to socialize and possibly play a tabletop game of some sort and share a few drinks. The issue I had with the LCD is that it degraded noticeably over time and I wasn't at all enthralled by that.

So for round two I wanted to have a better picture upfront and one that should be able to maintain that same quality for years so I choose DLP. I took the Pepsi challenge with RBE to see if we could overcome it and we did it terms of strain. Oh yah and the HD1000 low price didn't hurt either. With all that said I haven’t ruled out either technology for the future as both have their own issues and neither is ending up to be perfect yet for me.

The only exceptional story I have from a visitor watching a movie on my setup that made it truly visible was my wife’s friend sister came over one evening and she just went freaking bonkers in excitement when she got a load of what the system can dish out. She was doing a "Tom Cruise on Oprah" on my pit. She was saying stuff "now that is what I'm talking about" jumping up and down with joy pointing at the screen. Yes she is now one of my personal favorites!!! lol

Most others do a quickie demo and the only two times there was really an extended viewing for visitors was for the past two SB's. But in the end I don't get much of any negative feedback from either the LCD or DLP, I think the obvious it's big and looks great overrides any type of criticism at first.

Everyone in my family does see RBE with complete ease, we don't go searching for it, it comes to us. I had an LCD but switched to DLP and took that risk. All I can say is in truth at first there was eye fatigue and strain say the first week at most and to posters credit many have said it takes a little bit of time for those that do see, to adjust and they were right imo. So today, zero fatigue, we still see them usually in high-contrast areas but they aren't causing any major issues and we've come to live with those and perhaps they are becoming less and less in number to us as well. We also all feel the picture we are getting is much much better then the LCD it replaced.Different people are sensitive to different things in any experience. Just like LP vs. CD (uh-oh, heh) - with the former you get snap-crackle-pop, distortion, wow & flutter, increasing obsolescence, etc, and with the latter you get 'sterility', bad remastering jobs, microscopic liner notes, worthless "bonus" tracks, inane copy-protection schemes, etc. You just have to pick which set of imperfections you dislike the least.

I saw rainbows occasionally while I was trying out the HD70, but I was still new to this, and didn't really understand what I was seeing, so they almost didn't register. Then I tried a Sanyo Z5, but the higher black level was very disappointing, among other things (to me, at least).

I now have (& intend to keep!) an HD73. If I move my eyes quickly across the screen, especially during a more static, high-contrast scene, I can easily see a very brief, very pure RGB rainbow. It really doesn't bother me; in fact, at the risk of spitting hairs even further, it seems less unpleasant than the ones produced by the HD70 (probably because of the slightly higher speed, maybe also because there's no white segment?) Anyway, so far the imperfections of single-chip DLP are less objectionable to me than those of LCD, so I'll stick with DLP. For those unfortunate few who are physically bothered by rainbows to the point of headaches etc, their choice is obvious as well.The only exceptional story I have from a visitor watching a movie on my setup that made it truly visible was my wife’s friend sister came over one evening and she just went freaking bonkers in excitement when she got a load of what the system can dish out. She was doing a "Tom Cruise on Oprah" on my pit. She was saying stuff "now that is what I'm talking about" jumping up and down with joy pointing at the screen. Yes she is now one of my personal favorites!!! lol

Düde. Is she single??

Jim the Noob has an empty seat in the theater.. ;)

Düde. Is she single??

Jim the Noob has an empty seat in the theater.. ;)

ROTFLMAO

Yes she is single and quite hot amazingly enough and is on my short list if something unforseen happens if you know what I mean. (insert evil grin)

Yes she is single and quite hot amazingly enough and is on my short list if something unforseen happens if you know what I mean. (insert evil grin)

and I thought I was the only one with one those kind of "lists."

Another poster elsewhere at AVS indicated LCD simply must be great, since it's popular (! :eek: ) And it's even eating into DLP sales. Gee, you think the utter lack of zoom or useful lense shift has anything to do with that? ;)
I'd genuinely like to know! :confused:

That "poster" was me! And here is my post"

I own both. Opinions are opinions not facts. And that is what I said.
If LCD'd are substantially worse than DLP's then why they are selling so well?
In fact they have gotten a good chunk out of DLP' market share last year and hence the flood of sub $1k DLP lately. Have you seen the latest crop of LCD's lately? The easiest thing is to claim this or that without supporting it.

I did not say LCD's are "GREAT" or "POPULAR" in above post sir!
I did not even say LCD's are selling better than DLP but well. Do you have to resort to this kind of manipulations to make a point?
For good or bad it comes down to what you buy for yourself based on price and what your perception of two techs are from what you've read from various posters. Get to know the facts.

When I first saw one of these NEC models linked below a couple of years ago, I suggested then that pursuing this concept could revolutionize the home theater set up issue. I still think so. Alas, I don't even know if NEC is still in the business much, if they dropped this whole concept or if any other manufacturer gives a damn about considering it.

NEC WT-610
http://www.projectorcentral.com/NEC-WT610.htm

It's a DLP and the 100" 16x9 image of LOTR looked terrific when I saw the product set up out of the box within 5 minutes(!).

Since you would typically place it on the floor directly in front of the screen roughly where a floor-standing center channel speaker might be placed, there were NO fan noise issues, NO lens shift issues and NO zoom issues. And if your other components were near the front of the room, you could set it up with very short cable lengths. The center speaker could be offset slightly to the side or mounted above the screen.

I never understood why NEC or other manufacturers didn't present a native 16x9 HT-friendly version of this concept at a more competitive price.

Yes she is single and quite hot amazingly enough and is on my short list if something unforseen happens if you know what I mean. (insert evil grin)OK, well, god forbid if something unforseen does happen, and then happens again, you know where to find me, heh. Prob'ly still have that extra seat too, at the rate I'm going... :confused:

- Jim the Noob, queuing up

Simmer down, Caspian! :rolleyes: With my words and yours side by side I'd say my statement was a very accurate summary of yours. And I stand by my theory that the main virtue of LCD PJs and the reason they sell so well has more to do with flexibility than image quality. I've spent a lot of time with both LCD and DLP. To my eyes the average DLP PJ looks better than the average LCD, but there are plenty of LCD's I could live with. I'm really excited about the newer non-organic panels; the degradation of the panels was one things I've always been leery about.

In a better world DLP PJs would incorporate the same lense shift & zoom that most LCDs have. Then we could stop arguing about it and just buy based on how the picture looks, not whether or not we can make the install work.

It's not a huge deal to me since I live alone and am dedicated to the point of making my room a theater first and a living room second.

Sorry, but as a third party observer who doesn't know either of you from adam, "Another poster elsewhere at AVS indicated LCD simply must be great, since it's popular (! ) And it's even eating into DLP sales."...

...is NOTHING like...

"If LCD'd are substantially worse than DLP's then why they are selling so well?
In fact they have gotten a good chunk out of DLP' market share last year and hence the flood of sub $1k DLP lately."

And the sarcastic, dismissive conclusion that, "Gee, you think the utter lack of zoom or useful lense shift has anything to do with that?" is a further mischaracterization of Caspian's position.

"Simmer down"? You've got to be kidding, right? You totally distorted and mischaracterized his post in order to make your point and then you patronize him with "Simmer down"?

Yes, in a "better world" where DLPs, LCDs and all projectors have the same user-friendly features, bells, whistles and price, why would ANY of us care about anything but picture quality? That may be the understatement of the year.

But that isn't the case in the real world, is it? And here in the real world, lens shift, zoom and price, among other things, are all factors that I have no reason to believe from his post that Caspian isn't well aware are contributing factors for why LCDs have taken a sizable chunk of the market lately.

Just my 2 cents...

Thanks for the gas on the fire, Hitch. I don't mean to be rude to you, but I'm sick of this thread hijack/thread-crapping. I didn't ask for anyone's opinions on DLP vs LCD, and for guys to use this thread as another excuse to drag their soapbox out and beat their chest is inexcusable. I never named him by name, he chose to post that. And I still maintain that what I said is correct. Beyond the (selective) quote he made, he's a dedicated LCD fanboy, and has sung LCDs praises at length while bashing DLP at every opportunity. The search feature is your friend, hitch- you have over a thousand posts, I'm sure you're aware of this.

Nor was my post sarcastic. Grow a thicker skin if you're going to live on the net, everyone. Tone is very difficult to ascertain thru text, so when in doubt, please don't get your panties in a bunch.

Lastly, I guess you don't mind his smug and sarcastic comments that I should "learn the facts." I think some confuse a high post count with actually knowing something. I can assure you I'm no wet behind the ears HT nOOb.

So please, simmer down. ;)

Funny that someone who has now asked two posters here to "simmer down" is also touting the benefits of growing a thicker skin.

That's part of living, buddy. Growing a thicker skin will help you simmer down. I know it's hard to understand, but not everyone who disagrees with you is "calling you out."

Breath deeply, Hitch.

Assuming this site has moderators, could we please make an attempt to keep the thread crapping/hijacking to a minimum?

Simmer down, Rob. Grow a thicker skin and enjoy the comparisons between DLPs and LCDs.

he's a dedicated LCD fanboy, and has sung LCDs praises at length while bashing DLP at every opportunity. The search feature is your friend, hitch- you have over a thousand posts, I'm sure you're aware of this.


This another fact twisting. Do a search on my comments in CRT forum and you will find why I don't like LCD either in comparison to CRT. I still own my Sharp DLP and have endorsed that PJ for a year in its dedicated thread (for budget pj) and I did that even after owning the Sony HS60. Me pointing out flaws in technology does not equate me a biased poster. DLP with color wheel is flawed technology.

Funny that someone who has now asked two posters here to "simmer down" is also touting the benefits of growing a thicker skin.
That irony wasn't lost on me either.

Whoe whoe whoe guys. Let's not have this thread get too far off track. I think EVERYONE needs to just SIMMER DOWN! :D

On topic i'd like to say that if there were a good (picture wise) DLP pj with lots of lens shift and 2.0 zoom for less than $2000, I'd buy it... right now. :)

Whoe whoe whoe guys. Let's not have this thread get too far off track. I thing EVERYONE needs to just SIMMER DOWN! :D

On topic i'd like to say that if there were a good (picture wise) DLP pj with lots of lens shift and 2.0 zoom for less than $2000, I'd buy it... right now. :)

Unfortunately it won’t happen for a while. DLP=picture quality. LCD=flexibility. After a couple of years of having a home theater I said to myself “I spent all this time and energy building this thing – do I really want to compromise picture quality just because it is a little harder to get set up?” Of course I answered my own question NO! And then I went about rearranging my mount and screen. Frankly, I am now much happier. A little extra thought and energy continue to pay home theater happiness dividends.

I'm sure I would have gone for a DLP as my first projector if I could have found one at the time with horizontal lens shift (which I NEED in my HT set up) and a (then) much quieter operating noise level. Finding one competitavely priced to a comparable LCD would have been the total deal maker for me.

But that didn't happen then, hasn't happened yet, and Panasonic got there firstest with the bestest in an LCD model. So I went with it and I am still very happy with what I've got.

But hunting down a solution to the horizontal lens shift problem with a DLP is what led me to check out the NEC WT-610 concept I linked above. So far, it's the only way I've seen a DLP manufacturer fully solve it, but at too high a price difference, imho.

hitchfan, I bought my hs51a for PQ only not flexibility.
PQ with loads of visible RBE and dithering (both static and motion) can not be called HI Quality imo. In 1080p class, DLP is near death unless TI takes care of some of the mentioned above problems at a reasonable cost..

Maybe people just get used to a certain format or something because I've compared 2 $2,000 projectors side by side with each technology and I thought the LCD actually had a better picture.

BTW-I don't own either.

hitchfan, I bought my hs51a for PQ only not flexibility.
PQ with loads of visible RBE and dithering (both static and motion) can not be called HI Quality imo. In 1080p class, DLP is near death unless TI takes care of some of the mentioned above problems at a reasonable cost..


This post just shows how different people can have totally different ideas of reality. I would say you are crazy but I actually believe you believe what you are writing.

To me this is like looking at a white wall and having someone tell you it looks red to them. To me there is absolutely no contest in terms of picture quality between DLP and LCD. DLP just looks that much better. You obviously see the complete opposite. I guess that’s why they make different types of projectors.

I just hope those that are reading these forums don’t just get the LCD point of view – because in my opinion they will be missing out on the better looking image.

Maybe people just get used to a certain format or something because I've compared 2 $2,000 projectors side by side with each technology and I thought the LCD actually had a better picture.

BTW-I don't own either.
Right now the cheapest PJ's in the market is single chip DLP. I wonder why!!
Before you know it 1080p single chip would be available in this forum.
I would only consider another DLP when there is no color wheel (read 3 chip) at competitive price as SXRD and that would only be true if SXRD continues to have registration and uniformity issue. It is not that LCD is so great (in fact they are not) rather being the artifact rich nature of single chip DLP.

This post just shows how different people can have totally different ideas of reality. I would say you are crazy but I actually believe you believe what you are writing.


Well I am not going to resort to naming calling as you do. I am here for ideas, knowledge and opinion.
But perhaps my view has to do with 25 years having HT and big screens.
I have had the pleasure of having 8 PJ's in my room in last decade some temp and some owned. And I don't think you are crazy but rather you put your preferences on top of other's observations.

Right now the cheapest PJ's in the market is single chip DLP. I wonder why!!

And for years LCD was the cheapest. That's not a valid argument.

Well I am not going to resort to naming calling as you do. I am here for ideas, knowledge and opinion.
But perhaps my view has to do with 25 years having HT and big screens.
I have had the pleasure of having 8 PJ's in my room in last decade some temp and some owned. And I don't think you are crazy but rather you put your preferences on top of other's observations.

I was not calling you a name. “Your crazy” is just a figure of speech. I hope you don’t take this whole thing to seriously. If you have been into home theater for 25 years and you think LCD projectors produce better images than DLP then you are not crazy but something else.

You have to be realistic. Of course there are $499 DLP projectors out there (H31 which I bet will give off an unbelievable picture for not much more than the price of a new bulb) and yes they are cheap but that doesn’t make LCD better. I think the best proof is that the actual theater industry uses DLP in their movie theaters. I have yet to see one (movie theater) with an LCD and a dynamic iris.

I am referring to 720p class now. Past I agree and LCD was inferior to DLP.

I was not calling you a name. “Your crazy” is just a figure of speech. I hope you don’t take this whole thing to seriously. If you have been into home theater for 25 years and you think LCD projectors produce better images than DLP then you are not crazy but something else. .
There we go again.. not name calling..."not crazy but something else..."
why won't you argue the merits of DLP rather than who I am..
You don't think I have been in this hobby that long...That is fine. Check with AVS nearly $8k spent right here since joined the site. But that is for me not you.


You have to be realistic. Of course there are $499 DLP projectors out there (H31 which I bet will give off an unbelievable picture for not much more than the price of a new bulb) and yes they are cheap but that doesn’t make LCD better. I think the best proof is that the actual theater industry uses DLP in their movie theaters. I have yet to see one (movie theater) with an LCD and a dynamic iris.

The theater industry using "3-CHIP DLP" which I am not against. Read my posts again. Read first reply second.
I have made some arguments as why single chip DLP is an inferior system. Enough has been said already.

simmer down

hitchfan, I bought my hs51a for PQ only not flexibility.
PQ with loads of visible RBE and dithering (both static and motion) can not be called HI Quality imo. In 1080p class, DLP is near death unless TI takes care of some of the mentioned above problems at a reasonable cost..
CaspianM, in my case, the reason I considered DLP over LCD when I was shopping for my first PJ was not picture quality or set-up flexibilty. It was based on the fact that DLP was said not to surffer from burn-in issues. And then the set-up flexiblity advantages that Rob brought up originally and the good reviews on sites like this one for the Panasonic line pulled me toward LCD.

Before I purchased my AE-700 (now I have the AE-900...with an extended warranty and about 1000 hours on it), I spent lots of time looking at boutique retail HT set-ups and a couple of electronic shows in order to try to get an A-B comparison between DLP and LCD. But, even here in the Los Angeles area, I never saw an AE-700 or an AE-900 set up near a DLP in order to make that comparison.

Now, I haven't been to one of those big electronic shows for a couple of years. However, I still make it a point to check out HT set-ups around town whenever the opportunity presents itself. And I must say that for the most part I agree with what you've said about the picture quality of DLP vs LCD (mine, at least). In fact, I have yet to see another HT set up where the picture quality looks better than what I get from my little ol' AE-900 on a 100" Carada Brilliant White screen. And there are lots of DLP set-ups out there.

I know that means I must be crazy...

But I can only go by what my eyes tell me. Maybe no retailer (boutique or otherwise) in the L. A. area can properly set up a DLP HT system...maybe I haven't seen the $20,000 Whatever...maybe if I really could get the latest-greatest DLP projector next to my pj to do a real A-B comparison it would totally change my mind.

But so far I have not seen a better picture quality with DLP (or any OTHER LCD for that matter) over what I've got at home.

CaspianM, in my case, the reason I considered DLP over LCD when I was shopping for my first PJ was not picture quality or set-up flexibilty. It was based on the fact that DLP was said not to surffer from burn-in issues. And then the set-up flexiblity advantages that Rob brought up originally and the good reviews on sites like this one for the Panasonic line pulled me toward LCD.

Before I purchased my AE-700 (now I have the AE-900...with an extended warranty and about 1000 hours on it), I spent lots of time looking at boutique retail HT set-ups and a couple of electronic shows in order to try to get an A-B comparison between DLP and LCD. But, even here in the Los Angeles area, I never saw an AE-700 or an AE-900 set up near a DLP in order to make that comparison.

Now, I haven't been to one of those big electronic shows for a couple of years. However, I still make it a point to check out HT set-ups around town whenever the opportunity presents itself. And I must say that for the most part I agree with what you've said about the picture quality of DLP vs LCD (mine, at least). In fact, I have yet to see another HT set up where the picture quality looks better than what I get from my little ol' AE-900 on a 100" Carada Brilliant White screen. And there are lots of DLP set-ups out there.

I know that means I must be crazy...

But I can only go by what my eyes tell me. Maybe no retailer (boutique or otherwise) in the L. A. area can properly set up a DLP HT system...maybe I haven't seen the $20,000 Whatever...maybe if I really could get the latest-greatest DLP projector next to my pj to do a real A-B comparison it would totally change my mind.

But so far I have not seen a better picture quality with DLP (or any OTHER LCD for that matter) over what I've got at home.

You have got to be kidding me. You are in LA, the motion picture capital of the WORLD, and you can’t find a properly calibrated DLP setup. And because of this you think a Panasonic 900 gives off the best image your eyes have EVER seen. It is impossible to even argue a point as ridiculous as that.

I am sorry to say there are VASTLY better pictures being projected in your very town – whether you believe it or not. Even the inexpensive technology (Both LCD and DLP) has progressed substantially since you purchased your projector. All you have to do is read the revues and look at the numbers. These reviewers (Home Theater, Projector Reviews, Projector Central, etc.) don’t lie. These things are like computer chips, they keep getting better and better. And the current crop of Darkchip2 and Darkchip3 DLP’s look AWESOME. If you want proof – all you have to do is head over to you local CC or BB and check out one of the rear projection units (TV) with these chips in them. Many big screen setups looks just like those (or better).

Whoe whoe whoe guys. Let's not have this thread get too far off track. I think EVERYONE needs to just SIMMER DOWN! :D

Doesn't simmer still imply the presence of heat? Maybe chill out or cool down would be more appropo. :rolleyes:

hitchfan, I have no beef with anyone. But if you say you haven't seen a better DLP PQ than an AE900 on a 100" Carada Brilliant White, then you either haven't tested the new DC3 chipped projectors or even the little Optoma HD6800 (rebadged H72) or are biased against single chip DLP projectors.

Single chip DLP projectors are NOT perfect but give a truer image in terms of detail, black level, gamma curve than LCD projectors when compared to an actual film projected image.
Play something like Sin City on DLP and LCD side by side (the black and white with desaturated color is very difficult to render for all FP types). Then play something like Toy Story or Nemo side by side in real time. Or Black Hawk Down - Superbit.

I accept that single chip DLPs are not for everyone due to RBE and eyestrain. I notice eyestrain on my own eyes and can see RBEs whenever I choose to. However, I cannot give up the superior PQ of the DLP. It is truly the best there is at the price point I can afford.

Doesn't simmer still imply the presence of heat? Maybe chill out or cool down would be more appropo. :rolleyes:

You're actually interpreting it wrong. Yes the word simmer does traslate to heating up, however your forgetting the second word... "down". In other words, "Turn your simmer down", or "Take your simmer and turn it down"... something like that. Get it?
Anyway, I was just quoteing what others had already stated in the thread. Not really my choice of phrase.
Chill out and/or cool down would also apply. My personal phrasing would be something like "If you don't have something nice to say, then shut the **** up."
:rolleyes:

Well, folks, I'm sticking to my comment. Now, I did not say there ISN'T better picture quality to be had out there than what I have at home. I'm positive there is.

puppypilgrim, you are absolutely correct in that I have not tested any of the pjs you mentioned. In fact, as I tried to point out I am not talking about testing anything in my home, at someone elses home or seeing a side-by-side A-B comparison between what I have at home and anything else out there. I didn't even test my Panny before I bought it.

But, as I said, I still occasionally go into larger retailers such as Magnolia, Ultimate Electronics (Las Vegas), Frys, etc. AND boutique HT shops on the North, South, East and Westside of L.A. to see their HT set-ups.

And what I see is some variation or combination of screen door, dim pictures, lackluster colors, washouts with ambient light, muddy blacks, dithering...at levels that I don't see on my li'l ol' AE-900 on Carada BW combo. I know that sounds crazy to some of you. Sure, it's probably due to some calibration issues, personal taste, whatever. But what can I tell you, that's what I'm seein'. And I don't see it as noticably on my home system.

Now, I am not a technician or an expert on this by any means and never claimed to be. And, again, I've never done a side-by-side. But I cannot say I've yet seen anything on display at the retail level that would justify my exchanging what I already have for it or prevent me from regretting it later if I did.

...simmering at a comfortable level...
:D

Hitch, no one is saying that you aren’t producing a good/great picture. I am also not saying that you need to A/B in order to notice the quality level of your picture. What we are saying is that there are projectors available that produce a substantially better image. Again, I am not saying this to disturb you. I am saying it for the other who may be reading this forum.

Also, it should not bother you. I know there are faster computer chips than I have in my iMac, but I am still happy with what I have. I am sure there are better pictures that what is being produced with my Darkchip2 DLP. So what, I am happy with what I have. BUT I am not going around saying what I have is the best in the world or the best I have ever seen. That would be intellectually dishonest.

Originally Posted by SJK
These things are like computer chips, they keep getting better and better. And the current crop of Darkchip2 and Darkchip3 DLP’s look AWESOME. If you want proof – all you have to do is head over to you local CC or BB and check out one of the rear projection units (TV) with these chips in them. Many big screen setups looks just like those (or better). I'm sure you're right about the chips. But that improvement apparently has yet to show up in the BB (Magnolia) projector set-ups because I visit those stores at least every DVD-release-Tuesday and have yet to see anything that wows me enough to consider an upgrade. And instead I notice the issues I mentioned earlier at higher levels than I see at home.

Also, I go into BB and CC every week and always cruise through the tv section to see the latest. But as of yesterday I haven't seen anything in a rear, plasma or LCD (tv) of any size that produces an image that looks as smooth, film-like and watchable as my 100" system produces with the same HD or DVD source.

???

If you are happy with your projector setup, you should just avoid this forum unless you run into issues where you need help. That's what I did. I researched as much I as I could, bought my projector and never looked back. Stayed away for one year and now, just dropped in to see what was happening.

My Optoma DV10 is still making my jaw drop after 1 year in a light controlled room. Yes, I do have it setup with Avia, yes, I have a reasonable 5.1 audio setup (weakest part is the subwoofer). Yes, its only 480P. But due to my room config, I end up sitting 1.8 times screen width. Since the DV10 is a coffee table setup, I can't sit in front of the projector to get closer to the 92" screen. The net result is that with standard DVDs, I don't stand to gain any major benefits going to higher resolution at the present moment. I have cable but have avoided HD-cable since we only get all of 6 channels in HD where I live. My regular TV watching is done on CRT. Once the HD-DVD\Blue Ray thing is settled, I will buy a 1080P projector. And yes, it will be a DLP instead of an LCD.

Yes, its only 480P. But due to my room config, I end up sitting 1.8 times screen width. Since the DV10 is a coffee table setup, I can't sit in front of the projector to get closer to the 92" screen. The net result is that with standard DVDs, I don't stand to gain any major benefits going to higher resolution at the present moment.

Just don't buy a good upconverting DVD player!