Component or VGA? [Text View]

JeffChap

02-11-07, 12:05 PM

I've got a samsung L-ns4095d and i think the games look great over my vga. But I find movies using the HD-Dvd drive look washed out and grey. It stinks because there is no way to adjust color settings in pc mode. So now the question is go back to component or stay with the washed out movies.

You can adjust the color setting for the PC input, you just have to change to another input to do it. Switch to any other input that allows you to change it, be sure to use the same saved settings (Standard, Dynamic, Custom, or Movie), and change it to whatever you want. Now switch back to the PC input and your changes will be retained.

Majestic12

02-11-07, 12:55 PM

Component looks excellent on my Astar LCD.

formulanerd

02-11-07, 01:57 PM

Ozymandis

02-11-07, 02:24 PM

Color on component is normal. It's VGA that has the problem, on the monitors I've tried.

Jeff Flowerday

02-11-07, 02:53 PM

VGA is more natural to me. I like VGA.

Extra

02-11-07, 03:44 PM

I agree, VGA is more natural.

formulanerd

02-11-07, 04:04 PM

i really dont think my colors look washed out....

Halo 3 trailer - 720p scaled to 1080p (VGA)
http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/6185/cimg2641mediumas2.th.jpg (http://img368.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cimg2641mediumas2.jpg)

Gears failed screen VGA
http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/8499/cimg2578mediumyk1.th.jpg (http://img176.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cimg2578mediumyk1.jpg)

PGR3, 1080p VGA
http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/9203/CIMG2913Medium.th.jpg (http://img170.imageshack.us/my.php?image=CIMG2913Medium.jpg)
http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/2845/CIMG2909Medium.th.jpg (http://img170.imageshack.us/my.php?image=CIMG2909Medium.jpg)
http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/235/CIMG2914Medium.th.jpg (http://img170.imageshack.us/my.php?image=CIMG2914Medium.jpg)
http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/5135/CIMG2902Medium.th.jpg (http://img170.imageshack.us/my.php?image=CIMG2902Medium.jpg)

Oblivion 1080p VGA
http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/4333/cimg3223mediumss5.th.jpg (http://img128.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cimg3223mediumss5.jpg)

also, in my expirience, for LCD's which typically suffer from not-so-good black levels, the VGA cable provides better blacks.

and if you try VGA, dont try psyclone or some other cable knock-off, get the MS VGA cables, or Monster if you want to go all out. i have the MS and i love it. i tried the Psyclone, they were like 60 bucks, and they were horrible

formulanerd

02-11-07, 04:08 PM

VGA... well... looks like crap on my LG LCD set. 1280x720 is the best of all available resolutions

maybe all available resolutions that are available to you, because my eyes tell me 1920X1080p is miles better :)

Megalith

02-11-07, 05:05 PM

I think that the washed out colors only affect the dash.

Clearly something to do with RGB/YPbPr and colorspace.

formulanerd

02-11-07, 05:07 PM

my dash looks fine.

do those who complain have auto adjust settings on their tv set? i know if you adjust at the wrong screen the gamma settings can be out of whack, maybe that's what you're seeing.

Mustang1

02-11-07, 06:46 PM

robert samo

02-11-07, 07:44 PM

what if your tv doesnt support 1080p? I want to free up a component slot with a vga cable, but ill only do it if it looks better. thanks.

MigBizzle

02-11-07, 09:37 PM

BearGator56

02-11-07, 09:45 PM

If anyone knows how to fix this problem of colors looking dull tell us, I have a mitsubishi dlp 65732, i connect the vga to a adapter that turns it to dvi i and then i connect it to the tv dvi input in the back, colors look really bad.

Doesn't your Mitsu have a VGA input? I have a 62525 dlp, and it has hdmi and vga, along with 2 component.

I have been debating the switch to VGA myself...

Majestic12

02-11-07, 09:54 PM

formulanerd

02-11-07, 10:22 PM

i'll take some comparo pics in a couple hours after my wife goes to sleep. luckily all my color settings should be saved for the component input so i wont have to calibrate it again.

Mustang1

02-12-07, 01:24 AM

Doesn't your Mitsu have a VGA input? I have a 62525 dlp, and it has hdmi and vga, along with 2 component.

I have been debating the switch to VGA myself...

no, :( it has dvi digital/analog, Component, HDMI.

Bassmasa

02-12-07, 03:26 PM

Count me in the VGA camp as well. The component is a bit sharper, but the VGA color seems much more true to life and not so saturated. Honestly, it's not that big of a difference in games.

In DVDs, though, the difference is night and day, VGA is far superiour. I know the 360 upconverts over VGA, but we use the 360 for DVD playback and it's just no comparison. I've used MS cables for both sources and been happy with both, but the DVD playback makes a huge difference for me.

fyrmedic707

02-12-07, 07:46 PM

I have a westi 1080p going through with monster vga cables from my 360 and i prefer the vga over component. The colors seem more accurate and when watching dvd's their is no comparison the vga cables are miles ahead. But it is all up to taste.

I too have a Westy 1080p set. It's the 37w3. I liked the Component, but after trying the VGA it wasn't "worlds" better ,but it is better looking. And especially for DVD's, I believe the color is a lot more "true" and black levels seem a bit better. Games like Rainbow 6 Vegas and even Halo 2 look a lot bette over VGA than Component, but it may be because they are at the true 1080p and not 720p or 1080i that's limited by the component. I do have to say though, that the colors almost seem "soft". But thats only while playing games, not in DVD's. The edges seem a bit softer as well. But I am used to it and like it.

linuxworks

02-12-07, 07:55 PM

why choose ONLY between vga (analog) and component (analog)?

why not throw dvi into that mix? it will ALWAYS win.

(oh, forgot. rights mgmt.)

I drive my 32" lcd tv with dvi. its a slightly older set - has real honest dvi and not hdmi. I bought it FOR the dvi.

I used to run vga to my previous 32" set. hdmi didn't "take" my dvi input. I got rid of that set and bought a dvi set. much MUCH happier now. yes, my pc drives it and no dvd player or anything else. its mostly for htpc use anyway.

you should not have to settle for analog feeds to your display. (sigh).

Extra

02-12-07, 07:59 PM

What are you talking about? The TC clearly states this is for xbox 360, which does not have any digital output and thus only limited to analog, so why throw in dvi?

linuxworks

02-12-07, 08:15 PM

What are you talking about? The TC clearly states this is for xbox 360, which does not have any digital output and thus only limited to analog, so why throw in dvi?

(blush)

oh, newbie mistake here ;)

I didn't see the xbox part. MY BAD. sorry.

(I was browing 'new posts'. just didn't see xbox in the thread. won't happen again) ;)

The Natural

02-14-07, 12:14 PM

VGA > Component

jblank74

02-16-07, 11:38 AM

a lot of people think that vga looks more washed out, but your eyes are used to the ugly color over-saturation.

i also think it might depend on your tv set, so i'd find a forum or section with your tv, and see what people prefer with your tv.

for me it's a no brainer. dvds are 1080p with vga, and not with component.

Thats BS right there. I got my VGA cable the day I got my 360 and tried both VGA and Component on day 1. Component is better, on my TV, and VGA IS WASHED OUT!!! Now, maybe you get different results, thats fine, but please, stop making it sound like just because its good for you, that its good for everyone else.

Many of us get bad performance due to the issues with us not being able to adjust the color on our VGA inputs (thanks Sony), so we get a much less sharp image, and one that is very plain looking.

Dweezilz

02-16-07, 04:49 PM

On my Westinghouse 1080p LCD I had purchased after market VGA cables for the 360. They were $15.95 so I knew they might not be very good. Compared to the Microsoft component cables, those VGA cables looked terrible. Games via component looked very sharp and colorful but on some games such as Madden 2007, it was too dark and over saturated. When the stadium was in the shadow, I could barely see anything. Lowering the color settings didn't help. Even bumping up the brightness didn't really help as it had a negative impact on the entire picture in order to get it bright enough. The VGA cables however looked washed out and everything was fuzzy and not sharp at all so I used component and figured it looked as good as it can. The after market (ie non-Microsoft) VGA cables were obviously garbage.

So, I returned the cheapo VGA cable and purchased the official Microsoft VGA cable. All I can say is WOW. Games were now flat out stunning! I didn't realize what I was missing! Sharp way beyond what component provided and I saw fine detail that was just missing via the M$ components. In NBA 2k7 the court refections are so much more detailed; the court glistened! VGA wasn't washed out at all; it was bright and had rich deep colors. The components looked overly saturated which led to some games being too dark and losing the fine detail I now see with VGA.

Movies are much the same. VGA looks better with far more detail and crispness. My wife clearly noticed the difference and that's saying quite a bit.

So what's that mean to someone with a different TV? Hard to say. Maybe nothing. Each TV may have their VGA (or any input) implemented differently as with the Sony's VGA in the post above. Maybe component looks far better on another TV than it does on the Westy. Don't know. I am planning on testing component on my Sanyo Z4 projector and see how it does there. On the Westinghouse, VGA is stellar but on another brand it may be terrible as it was for jblank74. My DVI port on my 51" Sony rear projection TV is so washed out that it's unusable so I know how ports can look totally different on different TV's. On other TV's obviously DVI is fine. Some TV's just have a poorly implemented port or they are just calibrated differently, so that could be why VGA looks so washed out for some people and for others like me, it looks far better.

I guess just make sure you have original Microsoft cables for both VGA and component and see what looks best. (I've even heard expensive after market VGA's aren't as good as Microsoft's)

Cowdisease

02-16-07, 05:31 PM

I own a 32" Sceptre Kodomo LCD set and I've been trying to compare the difference between a VGA and component connection of my Xbox 360.

Before I compared the two connections, I used the Avia DVD on my Xbox 360 to calibrate my TV set. What's interesting is that the final calibrated settings are different for component and VGA connections.

I can tell you that I had to set the saturation levels a little higher (contrast way higher, brightness lower) for VGA than component, which may explain why colors look "washed out" on VGA if it hasn't been calibrated differently from component. I tried to compare both connections with a colorful stage from Dead or Alive 4 (sadly, not side-to-side since I don't own two Xbox 360s) and both appear to look fantastic (I did not notice washed out colors on the VGA connection).

I still have to do more testing (which I admit is really subjective since I have no means to do a proper screen capture for both connections), but for now I'll stay with VGA since I don't notice a major difference from component and VGA upscales my DVDs to 720p.

linuxworks

02-16-07, 06:59 PM

I have that very sceptre set.

it has a VERY wonky (heh) color setting system. each input calibrates on its own, but not using similar numbers ;(

I have a calibrator puck that I use for pshop use and it was really hard to get a good white-balance on this monitor. even given that it does support setting r/g/b values in the temperature screen.

I think something is funny about that set. internally, I am wondering if some inputs are 'ahead' of others and go thru various stages. is hdmi really truly purely digital? could it also be going thru a d/a phase then feeding that input into the vga stage, sort of?

whatever it case is, that set was very hard to get color correct. like you said, on all the inputs, the color balance varied A LOT.

FuriousJodo

02-18-07, 03:05 AM

I would definitely have to say VGA is superior after getting it to work properly, once the set isconfiguired right it loks just as good if not better than component, and has the 1080p factor. I feel that there is a lot of detail that stands out in VGA that I didn't notice before in component, everything is much more crisp. Though it might just be my eyes, I think it really just comes down to whats best for your eyes on your TV.

zeitgeistdr

03-03-07, 08:08 PM

OK - let me ask about this. When using the VGA cable, it's my understanding that the display options provided by the 360 stop at 1368x760. How is that capable of providing 1080p data? It seems to me if 1368x760 is the best signal out of the 360 on VGA then using component cables to get 1920x1080 is going is going to give, roughly, twice the resolution if your display has the pixel field to do 1920x1080

I'm not looking to start a "1080i v. 720p" war - Lord knows we had enough of that to last a lifetime. I just don't see how 1368x760 is 1080p and I don't see how the VGA output is the best choice for TVs capable of 1920x1080. Hopefully someone here can educate me.

ohmyblazes

03-03-07, 11:20 PM

pestario

03-04-07, 07:21 PM

Another vote fr VGA by a mile for me on both my Projector and LCD TV.

KoRn

03-04-07, 08:19 PM

THE WASHED OUT COLORS HAVE BEEN ADDRESSED IN AN UPDATE MS RELEASED. So please stop spreading around bs.

Thats BS right there. I got my VGA cable the day I got my 360 and tried both VGA and Component on day 1. Component is better, on my TV, and VGA IS WASHED OUT!!! Now, maybe you get different results, thats fine, but please, stop making it sound like just because its good for you, that its good for everyone else.

Many of us get bad performance due to the issues with us not being able to adjust the color on our VGA inputs (thanks Sony), so we get a much less sharp image, and one that is very plain looking.

EricM407

03-05-07, 07:10 AM

THE WASHED OUT COLORS HAVE BEEN ADDRESSED IN AN UPDATE MS RELEASED.

No, they haven't.

Charlie97L

03-05-07, 09:55 AM

it's just a simple matter of recalibrating your tv when you move to vga. heck, my 360 looked like poo on my projector on component before i calibrated it.

the more high end your display, generally, the more adjusting you have to do out of the box.

the washed out colors, i believe was first brought up by those guys using vga to connect to LCD monitors that had no video filter. the monitor was expecting the 360 to process the picture, the 360 was expecting the monitor to process the picture, and the result was washed out... so basically, if you run a setup like this, route your 360 through your PC's video card.

LR6AGB001

03-05-07, 10:08 AM

bulls96

03-05-07, 10:10 AM

Like everyone its really based on your preference.

Some people like their pictures a little darker, more theater-like, I want my pictures to be bright and sharp.

so VGA>Component.

Its really not much of a difference though. S-video-VGA-Component can all be equal in terms of picture quality. They are all better than RCA, but are still Analogue signals, so not much to work on.

You have to take into consideration too the length of the cord. Thats another factor.

Charlie97L

03-05-07, 11:23 AM

I guess it comes down to what TV set you have. I dropped by a buddies house recently and had helped him setup his Samsung 71" DLP and for some reason the tint setting was greyed out. Also on VGA, the X360 didn't fill up the entire screen for some odd reason so the next best thing was component. Minimal overscan and colors were adjustable. As for washed out colors, they appeared equal on the Microsoft branded cables be it VGA or component on that specific display.

for the screen not being filled, a lot of times, for any kind of PC hookup (i learned this weekend) you have to adjust the overscan and position, sort of like you would on an old school CRT PC monitor.

Management

03-05-07, 04:34 PM

OMG another one of these threads. Please people you can stop creating these threads and do some research on what people have already said. And then just try it yourself and pick what you want. Jeeeez.

purplesky

03-05-07, 11:40 PM

I bought the MS VGA cable a couple months ago and my Sony XBR2 was completely washed out color wise and there was a slight delay problem with the games. Yes you can go in and calibrate all day long on your LCD pc input but componet at the end of the day looks better. Games like Far Cry are incredible using componet. I don't know about anyone else here but I would really like a PS3 now. I have been trying to talk myself into the hd-dvd add-on and I keep thinking Blu-ray 1080p HDMI and 7.1 sound. Someone here please save me $400.00 before I use my 10% discount on Target.com. to buy a stupid PS3. I am thinking just for Blu-ray the PS3 is worth it.

Vidmaven

03-06-07, 12:56 PM

Got the MS VGA cable Friday and hooked it up to my Panny plasma. Used DVE to calibrate and all I can say is WOW! What a difference! All of the games look so crisp and clear it's like I had cheesecloth hanging in front of the TV before when using component, as well as the previously mentioned oversaturated colors. DVDs look much better also (obviously since they are now being upconverted). Even my kids were commenting on how much more detail they can see in the games now. Best $30 I've spent for my 360. However I will state that if you are unable to adjust your color/picture settings when using a VGA input you will not be able to get the same level of quality.

Hayrab

03-06-07, 01:37 PM

Since the Xbox is the only analog component in my HT I went ahead and got the monster VGA cable. I had the same problem as everyone else here, the screen was underscanned which I was able to fix but there is a slight curve which kinda peeves me. Also the color was definitely much less saturated I was able to relieve it somewhat by setting the color to Warm2. Im getting used to the colors and I can notice more sharpness to character models but I can't help but think that I didn't see much of a difference between the cheapo 360 component cables and the Monster VGA. This is on a Samsung HLS-6187W btw.

batotman

03-06-07, 01:45 PM

I've tried the VGA and Component with my TV. The VGA appears sharper and colors appear more real. The Component isn't as sharp and colors are a little brighter. Both look great with a slight edge to the VGA. However, I probably wouldn't pay the $40 for the cable again if I had to as the difference doesn't seem a ton different though its noticeable. I'm not picky...lol.

edcokpareke

03-06-07, 02:07 PM

ZippyBongHits

03-06-07, 03:08 PM

I dont think people realize that for fixed pixel displays VGA for the Xbox 360 is the best bet, even when or if an HDMI cable comes out(HDMI will still have a slightly faded look with soft edges compared to VGA for 360). Picture will always be 100% razor sharp(thats why sharpness control is gone).

The big questions you need to ask yourself though is:

A. Does the TV have a PC input(VGA)???
B. Does the TV accept its own native resolution over VGA?
C. Does the Xbox 360's current firmware allow for the 360 to output in the TV's native res.?

If you have answered yes to all of these then procede below to:

D. Does TV accept the same signal range as the Xbox 360 can output with the current 360 firmware, or through the TV's ability to auto or manually adjust the input to be compatible with the 360's output signal without degredation or alteration of colors(ie: washed out look) due to a differing signal.

If you answer yes to all of these then VGA is by far and away the best and only truely way to see your displays absolute best picture potential. And please be aware, there should be some slight to modest tweaking at best with available picture controls between component and VGA at most, but if there is severe "washing" or picture distortion of one kind or another, then the signal or input of the tv need to be altered to match up properly for a truely spectacular picture.

If you didn't make it through these questions will all yes answers, then component video is your best bet as it stands.

Charlie97L

03-06-07, 03:16 PM

If I read one more post where someone mentions "Component is over-saturated", I swear, I'll shoot myself in the head. What on earth does that mean? You can adjust color saturation on pretty much every TV out there, so how can you make such a general statement like that???!!!

It's like saying, "I don't like SONY stereos because their volumes are too loud". :eek:

people who don't tweak their display settings at ALL from out of the box say this, as well as washed out.

i've seen washed out VGA's from tv's that expect the PC video card to process. a lot of tvs do this on the PC input, as well as monitors. if it's a "PC" input, and you can't adjust, the picture will be crap.

calibrated, i can't tell a big difference in the colors. i switched mainly for dvd upconversion, which makes a HUGE difference. that's why i did it.

the picture is a little bit sharper, definitely, but it's not a massive improvement on the games. DVDs however. woah.

Vidmaven

03-06-07, 03:54 PM

If I read one more post where someone mentions "Component is over-saturated", I swear, I'll shoot myself in the head. What on earth does that mean? You can adjust color saturation on pretty much every TV out there, so how can you make such a general statement like that???!!!

It's like saying, "I don't like SONY stereos because their volumes are too loud". :eek:

I use a component switching box to input all of my devices that use component cables into my monitor. I have calibrated that input on the TV using DVE via an OPPO 971H. When I switch from the DVD player to the XBox 360 using the component input the colors seem oversaturated in comparison to the DVD player on the same input. When I switched to the VGA cable for the 360 the colors seemed much more natural and in line with the calibrated component input via the OPPO. Could just be that they require different settings but it is a noticeable difference.

Not to be a B*TCH but I'm not sure why it's a big deal for people to state their opinions/results about the component vs. VGA cables. That is the point of the thread isn't it? To each their own.

cyberbri

03-06-07, 04:06 PM

ZippyBongHits

03-06-07, 04:20 PM

You forgot "Does your TV allow user adjustment of picture controls on the PC/VGA input?" Mine does, but apparently there are some TVs, like the Sonys mentioned on this thread, where the picture controls are disabled when using the PC/VGA input.

Sony displays completely remove picture controls? Including brightness and contrast?

cyberbri

03-06-07, 04:21 PM

Somebody said that on his Sony, when using the VGA/PC input there were no user controls available to adjust the picture.

edcokpareke

03-06-07, 07:39 PM

When I switch from the DVD player to the XBox 360 using the component input the colors seem oversaturated in comparison to the DVD player on the same input.

Then, turn it down when you switch.

EricM407

03-06-07, 08:08 PM

I dont think people realize that for fixed pixel displays VGA for the Xbox 360 is the best bet, even when or if an HDMI cable comes out(HDMI will still have a slightly faded look with soft edges compared to VGA for 360).

Please explain this further. HDMI doesn't have a "look" of any kind, nor does it do anything to soften edges. It's a freaking cable carrying data, that's it.

ZippyBongHits

03-07-07, 05:23 AM

Please explain this further. HDMI doesn't have a "look" of any kind, nor does it do anything to soften edges. It's a freaking cable carrying data, that's it.

You could possibly be right, as Im no expert on the details on HDMI cables, but I had the opportunity to test out an HD DVD player with VGA cables and compare it to a HD DVD player(unfortunately 2 different brands of HD DVD players course)
eunning with an HDMI cable. But on about a half dozen different high end 1080p HDTV sets the HD DVD player running through the VGA cables looked noticeably sharper and more vibrant than the player running through the HDMI cables. I was really surprised. TV's were quickly calibrated with a very basic THX video disc as well. It seems like at the very least the TV's own internal processing or something was introducing something on the HDMI input line. I did notice that with VGA input seemed to bypass/disable alot of the tuning features normally found for picture control, like sharpness,color intensity of the basic kind. Maybe someone else can chime in.

EricM407

03-07-07, 07:04 AM

It seems like at the very least the TV's own internal processing or something was introducing something on the HDMI input line.

Same output resolution on both players/cables? Not 1080i HDMI and 1080p VGA?

ZippyBongHits

03-07-07, 08:20 AM

Same output resolution on both players/cables? Not 1080i HDMI and 1080p VGA?

Both players were outputting a 1080P signal. That was triple checked.

Vidmaven

03-07-07, 09:03 AM

Then, turn it down when you switch.
Easier just to use the 360 with the VGA cable and have that input's setttings calibrated appropriately. :) Now I just need my VGA switch box so I can switch back and forth from the 360 to the Dreamcast :cool: (hopefully I won't need to mess with the settings much for the Dreamcast on VGA).

Dadbart

03-07-07, 11:50 AM

I know this can be a hot topic. I am very frustrated by it. I have a Samsung LN-S4095. I have switched back and forth between VGA and Component a hundred times. I definately like the richer colors on VGA and games play and look fine on VGA, BUT...

On the HD-DVD there is a huge difference in sharpness between the 2. The VGA at 1920x1080x60 is definitely much less sharp than the component at 1080i. For instance, a grate on the Serenity HD-DVD, near the beginning of the movie on the bottom of a lift being used for an escape, is almost non-existent on VGA, but on Component are clear as a bell.

I suspected 360 mostly at first, but now I wonder if it is lack of dynamic control from the TV end. Kind of like the difference between Movie mode and Dynamic mode on a regular TV channel with this set. Since only Contrast, Energy Saver and Brightness are available under VGA on this set, there are limits on what can be done to the picture. If I had HDMI for the 360, I would have full options for adjusting the picture.

My oldest son has a Westinghouse 47" 1080p (that cost less than my 40" 1080p) and his VGA from the 360 looks fantastic, very sharp and clear, very different from mine.

Has anyone found a way to get the clarity up with this particular set? I would love to have upconvert and full 1080p available for the HD-DVD.

jblank74

03-07-07, 12:30 PM

THE WASHED OUT COLORS HAVE BEEN ADDRESSED IN AN UPDATE MS RELEASED. So please stop spreading around bs.

The only people spreading anything, are the people that claim universalities, like VGA is better than Component, on the 360. It is VERY MUCH a "your mileage may vary" kind of thing and I would appreciate it if you, and people like you, would stop making it look like VGA is ALWAYS better, because it isn't.

Is that too much to ask?

jblank74

03-07-07, 12:34 PM

Sony displays completely remove picture controls? Including brightness and contrast?

Many of us get bad performance due to the issues with us not being able to adjust the color on our VGA inputs (thanks Sony), so we get a much less sharp image, and one that is very plain looking.

edcokpareke

03-07-07, 12:39 PM

The only people spreading anything, are the people that claim universalities, like VGA is better than Component, on the 360.

I second that. It's also the same kind of people that say "Duh!!! You have to calibrate your TV after you switch to the VGA input to get a great picture"...as if we're too stupid to know that. I (like many others) have calibrated for weeks and months and still find VGA to be dull, greyish, blurry, and icky compared to component.

ZippyBongHits

03-07-07, 12:58 PM

JeffChap

03-07-07, 04:34 PM

So on the Samsung you don't have color saturation or Hue available for adjustment when using VGA?

Color saturation is indeed available on the Samsungs while using VGA, at least for my LN-S4051. You just have to be tricky about it, as it is not *directly* available.

To adjust the color level, you have to change to another input that does allow you to adjust the color. Then choose the same setting group that you use for your VGA. Personally, I use Movie. Then adjust the color however you wish. Now when you go back to the VGA input, pull the picture settings menu back up and you will find that your changes to the color level have been retained, although the color adjustment bar is grayed out.

If you want to confirm that it is indeed changing it, set it all the way to 0, then go back to VGA. You'll now have a black & white picture.

Dadbart

03-07-07, 07:33 PM

So on the Samsung you don't have color saturation or Hue available for adjustment when using VGA?

Your oldest son has the other monitor Im looking to get in the Westinghouse 47w1 1080p display. In fact its a toss up between the Samsung 4095D or the Westinghouse 47w1 with an external cable box/tuner.

I currently have the Westinghouse w4207 with is a 42" 720p dispaly and Xbox 360 and HD DVD look absolutely phenominal. Razor sharp, incredible detail and full color with adjustment for saturation and hue in the user controls and RGB gain/bias in the sm.

No color adjustments at all with VGA. No sharpness control. Also no dynamic contrast options, which is, I believe, contributing to the grayed appearance on VGA. You have the Game Mode option with VGA, but that does little to help undo the lack of contrast over VGA with this model. It was clearly designed with a PC in mind, where you can adjust everything from the PC end.

My son is very happy with the Westy. I was tossing between the same two. Now I regret my choice. I originally fell to the Samsung because of all the complaints about support when there were problems with the Westy, but his has been flawless.

Dadbart

03-07-07, 07:40 PM

Color saturation is indeed available on the Samsungs while using VGA, at least for my LN-S4051. You just have to be tricky about it, as it is not *directly* available.

To adjust the color level, you have to change to another input that does allow you to adjust the color. Then choose the same setting group that you use for your VGA. Personally, I use Movie. Then adjust the color however you wish. Now when you go back to the VGA input, pull the picture settings menu back up and you will find that your changes to the color level have been retained, although the color adjustment bar is grayed out.

If you want to confirm that it is indeed changing it, set it all the way to 0, then go back to VGA. You'll now have a black & white picture.

Custom is the only adjustment group available on the 4095 when using VGA. I just tried your suggestion and it did not work. I set component custom to 0 color. Got a B/W picture. Changed it to the VGA cable and it was color at 50 with custom. Although color is not my complaint. It is the contrast for black and white. Without any dynamic contrast control, black and white are grayed. I believe this is why the lack of sharpness in my Serenity example. The colors are actually better to me on VGA, richer and more lifelike.

cyberbri

03-07-07, 07:40 PM

Changing the brightness/black level setting will affect the apparent vibrancy of the colors.

Dadbart

03-07-07, 07:44 PM

Changing the brightness/black level setting will affect the apparent vibrancy of the colors.

Only some on the 4095. You can get close, but black and white are still grayed. Other colors can be made to look great. This is because it is defaulting to a movie type mode without no dynamic contrast available. Unfortunately, many edges are balck and that because blurred when grayed.

JeffChap

03-08-07, 01:44 AM

Custom is the only adjustment group available on the 4095 when using VGA. I just tried your suggestion and it did not work. I set component custom to 0 color. Got a B/W picture. Changed it to the VGA cable and it was color at 50 with custom. Although color is not my complaint. It is the contrast for black and white. Without any dynamic contrast control, black and white are grayed. I believe this is why the lack of sharpness in my Serenity example. The colors are actually better to me on VGA, richer and more lifelike.

Wow, that's too bad. It definitely works on my 4051. I wonder why they disabled it on the 4095. I admit, because of the way you have to finagle it, it probably was a bug on the 51 that they fixed on the 95, because it doesn't look like they intended for you to be able to do it on the 51 either.

Maybe it's another difference between the 51 and the other Sammy models, but my colors actually got more vibrant when I switched from component to VGA. I was expecting the opposite based upon all of the complaints I had read here, but I actually ended up toning down the color from 50 to 45 with VGA.

Dadbart

03-08-07, 05:51 AM

The colors are better on ine with VGA too. The problem is with black and white, which results in softened edges on everything.

ZippyBongHits

03-21-07, 01:50 PM

No color adjustments at all with VGA. No sharpness control. Also no dynamic contrast options, which is, I believe, contributing to the grayed appearance on VGA. You have the Game Mode option with VGA, but that does little to help undo the lack of contrast over VGA with this model. It was clearly designed with a PC in mind, where you can adjust everything from the PC end.

My son is very happy with the Westy. I was tossing between the same two. Now I regret my choice. I originally fell to the Samsung because of all the complaints about support when there were problems with the Westy, but his has been flawless.

I just got done doing a comparison between the Samsung 4095 and my current w4207 Westy. The Westy even though its a 720p monitor and 2" larger diagonal, had the superior picture. In fact it wasn't even that close after both being calibrated with a Sypder2 TV colorimeter kit and a few good HD calibration screens.

So I think Im going to scope out a 47" Westy. I'm real happy with my 42". Just wish the new 52" models were out. Thats the size I really want.

Sheperd Aiki

03-22-07, 12:33 PM

I compared dashboard, game, and DVD playback on our LCD and Plasma, and VGA is much cleaner and more natural looking. Fixed 'muted' colors (compared to Component) with calibration DVD.

JohnnytheSkin

03-22-07, 01:38 PM

Does the 360 upconvert DVD's over VGA? I'm looking at using a VGA-DVI connector to hook up my new Mits DLP for 1080p, but am curious as to whether it upconverts regular DVD's accordingly.

Also, has anyone noticed issues with the HD-DVD addon over VGA? That's something else I've been looking into.

Cowdisease

03-22-07, 02:45 PM

Does the 360 upconvert DVD's over VGA? I'm looking at using a VGA-DVI connector to hook up my new Mits DLP for 1080p, but am curious as to whether it upconverts regular DVD's accordingly.This question was answered several times in the beginning of the thread. The answer is yes.

dixonbm

03-22-07, 03:22 PM

Has anyone tried VGA vs. Component on a Sceptre Naga 37' (1080P model)

Egret

03-22-07, 03:33 PM

Has anyone tried VGA vs. Component on a Sceptre Naga 37' (1080P model)
I'm on the Sceptre Komodo 42". I like the picture on the VGA much better.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c213/cmuegret/100_0473.jpg

I've messed with the settings to find what I like. This works better for me... and isn't that all that really matters?

bld93

03-23-07, 01:27 PM

todzla

03-23-07, 05:42 PM

I'm hooking the VGA cable up to connect my Xbox 360 and the HD DVD player to my Samsung HL-S5087W 1080p DLP this weekend and will report back!

Dadbart

03-23-07, 07:09 PM

I've switched to the VGA cable recently and do like it better than component because the picture seemed better (Colors more vibrant, seems a little sharper, but regular dvds still don't look as good as my old CRT HDTV) and also because I can see more of the picture. There seemed to be 10-15% overscan issue that I never noticed when using the component cables. It would be hard for me to go back to them now since I would know that I wasn't seeing everything.
Anybody else notice this?

More vibrant colors on VGA and overscan on component definitely. Sharper on VGA, definitely not. I have a Samsung LN-S4095 and it is definitely sharper with component. I originally blamed the non-standard VGA signal from the 360, but now I think it is the lack of contrast on VGA with this set.

formulanerd

03-23-07, 07:13 PM

all depends on your tv.

my VGA is tons sharper, better colors, and blacker blacks (lcd)

Dadbart

03-23-07, 07:18 PM

all depends on your tv.

my VGA is tons sharper, better colors, and blacker blacks (lcd)

On some sets, i.e. Westy 47 1080p, it is true. On the Sammy 4095 it is not true. Blacks are definitely grayed, even with proper calibration, and the picture is much softer.

formulanerd

03-23-07, 07:24 PM

LOL!

exactly why i said it depends on your tv

cyberbri

03-23-07, 08:28 PM

"Blacks are greyed"

The "Brightness" setting determines the black level. Any signal below that is black, and anything above that is a gradation of grey. If the brightness/black level is too high, there are no blacks. If it's too low, shadow detail blends into the black area.

So I don't understand "blacks are greyed out even after calibration." Perhaps the gamma is screwed up, but if it was I would imagine it would be screwed up on all inputs, not just VGA.

EricM407

03-23-07, 09:12 PM

"Blacks are greyed"

The "Brightness" setting determines the black level. Any signal below that is black, and anything above that is a gradation of grey. If the brightness/black level is too high, there are no blacks. If it's too low, shadow detail blends into the black area.

So I don't understand "blacks are greyed out even after calibration."

Maybe it's from video levels into input on the display that expects PC levels. 360 sends data that means black, TV thinks data means display a shade of gray just above black. Lowering brightness to make black actually look black just crushes everything and destroys the shadow detail.

Dadbart

03-24-07, 10:14 AM

Maybe it's from video levels into input on the display that expects PC levels. 360 sends data that means black, TV thinks data means display a shade of gray just above black. Lowering brightness to make black actually look black just crushes everything and destroys the shadow detail.

Exactly.

JohnnytheSkin

03-24-07, 11:35 AM

Anyone using VGA at 1080p on a Mitsubishi DLP?

formulanerd

03-24-07, 07:35 PM

i would look for a dedicated thread for your model DLP in the display section of the forums

shift_grind

03-25-07, 10:39 PM

todzla

03-26-07, 10:34 PM

I'm hooking the VGA cable up to connect my Xbox 360 and the HD DVD player to my Samsung HL-S5087W 1080p DLP this weekend and will report back!
WOW! No problems whatsoever using VGA on my TV. The only adjustment I made was to change the picture resolution to 1920x1080 via dashboard. Interesting note: before I had VGA hooked up, the settings were 480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p, etc. Once I hooked it up, they all changed to absolute resolutions (e.g. 1920x1080).

I didn't think I would notice that much difference but I did! GRAW 2 looks amazing, and The Departed HD DVD is stunning! More vibrant, better colors, sharper images. I guess it DOES really depend on your TV, because for me it was plug-and-play! Good money spent IMO.

formulanerd

03-26-07, 10:46 PM

congrats, glad you love it, i dont know what i would do without VGA :)

telcart

03-27-07, 04:03 PM

I have another angle on this, the static-pixel/LCD angle...

The argument here shouldn't be VGA vs Component. It's not that simple. It all depends on your source and your display, not the little bit of copper wire between them.

A good way to look at the difference between VGA and Component would be the native resolution of the TV in relation to the output of the XBOX360. For example, you have a 17" monitor with a native resolution of 1280x1024, you set your desktop resolution to 1024x768 and suddenly everything looks like crap. Anybody with an LCD monitor feel free to try this right now. This is because the pixels of an LCD panel are static to it's physical display area (the screen).

Unless your source is outputting the exact native resolution of your display, the picture is going to be far from perfect because the monitor will have to scale the display mode, making it fit the display. Any static pixel display will be effected by this, and you would be silly to be using a high end HD display without having all of your sources set to output the TV's native resolution. This is most noticable in LCD flat panels.

When you match your output resolution to the native resolution of the display, not only will the aspect ratio be perfect, but the pixels outputted will be displayed exactly where they are supposed to be on the screen without any scaling or streching, making the image (depending on your source) crystal clear.

HD resolutions are slightly different than PC/VGA resolutions however many HDTV LCDs use these familiar PC/VGA resolutions (WXGA etc.) for display. My 32" LCD uses a resolution of 1360x768 - when using component, the closest resolution is 720p (1280x720) . In my opinion using 720p looks better than any other HD standard resolution because it requires the least amount of scaling to fit the screen (ON MY TV). 1080i/p are slightly blurrier because more scaling is required.

When the VGA cable is used, and the XBOX is outputting at a resolution of 1360x768 (and this matches the TV's native resolution), all pixels are displayed as they are intended to on the screen (fine adjustments aside), making presentation perfect.

Unless you have an LCD with a native resolution matching that of an HDTV standard (1920x1080) that the XBOX360 will output, VGA is your best bet.

But this is only assuming the XBOX360 will output a resolution that matches your monitors native resolution. Do some research, if the XBOX360 won't output to your TV's native resolution, there will be almost no difference between component and VGA.

VGA vs component?

1. VGA if your static pixel HDTV has a native resolution matching one of the XBOX360's VGA output settings
2. Component if your static pixel HDTV has a native resolution matching an HDTV standard
3. VGA or Component if your static pixel HDTV doesn't match any of the XBOX360's HDTV or VGA resolutions

If 3 applies to you, you'll just have to try out both and see what looks best to you.

formulanerd

03-27-07, 06:49 PM

and if both 1 and 2 is true, you should also try out both.

FYI 1 and 2 is true for me, and VGA is miles better.

Hayrab

03-30-07, 08:06 AM

No more worry, 360 elite with HDMI is coming 4/29 :)

formulanerd

03-30-07, 09:02 AM

No more worry, 360 elite with HDMI is coming 4/29 :)

thats nice, but i'm not quite sure how that pertains to this thread.

edcokpareke

03-30-07, 10:01 AM

WOW! No problems whatsoever using VGA on my TV. The only adjustment I made was to change the picture resolution to 1920x1080 via dashboard. I didn't think I would notice that much difference but I did! GRAW 2 looks amazing, and The Departed HD DVD is stunning! More vibrant, better colors, sharper images. I guess it DOES really depend on your TV, because for me it was plug-and-play! Good money spent IMO.

Funny...I have the same TV (well the 56" version), and I get opposite results. VGA was less vibrant, had foggier mushy colors, and overall had duller images. I've posted these before, but just incase you haven't seen em. These shots were taken on our TV. I have a feeling that if you mount a camera in front of your TV and make a side by side comparison like this, you'll get similar results. Me; I think component is miles better (on our TV), and I haven't looked back.

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g38/edcokpareke/gowcompare.jpg
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g38/edcokpareke/finalcomparison2.jpg

Schwack

03-30-07, 10:37 AM

All,

I hope this will be ok to post this question since we are talking about VGA vs. Comp. Cables.

I just purchased a 46XBR3 and one of the first things I wanted to check was the display settings with my 360. A buddy who has a Sony (albiet an older model) and 360 helped me connect the cables to the TV. I forgot to switch the comp. cable on the 360 to HDTV. Once I did that, I tried to change my settings to the higher settings. However, once I did that my screen flickers and scrambled lines appear and I can't see anything! I tried 1080p, then 1080i, and even 720!! Nothing.

Now my Xbox 360 has all the patches from MS and I thought one of them were for the Sony tvs but now I'm concerned. I've re-checked the cable inputs and they do match up.

Since I can view the games on 480, I'm going to change the cables from INput 5 to 6 to see if that helps.

Also, I can buy a new comp. cable to see if my cable is bad. My other choice is to buy VGA cables. However, the debate is confusing.

Any thoughts? I appreciate any feedback!

Thanks,
Schwack

rr6966

03-30-07, 10:40 AM

I have the Samsung HL-S5687W 1080p DLP and the vga made quite a bit of difference. You do need to calibrate the brightness and picture controls or the images will appear washed out. I have mine on the movie setting.

edcokpareke

03-30-07, 10:44 AM

You do need to calibrate the brightness and picture controls or the images will appear washed out.

:eek: YOU DO????

edcokpareke

03-30-07, 10:59 AM

RR6966 (or anyone out there with a Samsung 1080P DLP 50" or larger), help me out with a little experiment. I'd like for anyone with this TV who feels VGA is better to check their calibration settings (Contrast, brightness etc) while using the VGA cable and send these settings to me. Then, I'll take whatever settings you send and put them on my HLS5688w.

I'll then switch my Xbox to the VGA cable, mount my Canon Digital SLR on a tripod and take a 6MP image. I'll leave the camera untouched while I do the following. I'll setup my Xbox for component, and I'll put in ANY random calibration setting...nothing too fancy, just anything that looks half decent. I'll take a picture with the camera at the same spot, zoom, exposure, etc and post snips from both pictures.

Because, thats what I did for the pictures I posted above, and I think the results are pretty clear.

todzla

03-30-07, 11:13 AM

edcopareke -

Thanks for the pictures you posted above! I will partake in your experiment too as I think it will be very useful. There are LOTS of people who have our TVs and this is a large debate in the Xbox 360 world.

I have a small Canon S400 4MP point-and-shoot which I have taken pictures with before. I think my fiance's Canon 10D mounted on her tripod will do this job better though. Give me a few days and I will post some side-by-side pics of games and HD DVDs.

I am using Eliab's recommended starter settings to the T btw.

EricM407

03-30-07, 07:32 PM

cyberbri

03-30-07, 11:26 PM

Some TVs have component inputs that accept only certain resolutions. My Samsung HLN accepts 480i/p on component 1, and 480p, 720p and 1080i on component 2 and 3.

cyberbri

03-31-07, 12:09 AM

Funny...I have the same TV (well the 56" version), and I get opposite results. VGA was less vibrant, had foggier mushy colors, and overall had duller images. I've posted these before, but just incase you haven't seen em. These shots were taken on our TV. I have a feeling that if you mount a camera in front of your TV and make a side by side comparison like this, you'll get similar results. Me; I think component is miles better (on our TV), and I haven't looked back.

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g38/edcokpareke/gowcompare.jpg
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g38/edcokpareke/finalcomparison2.jpg

Have you calibrated your display, not just the user controls, but the actual service menu?

I have (THIS (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=523614) is me) for my main component inputs, my DVI, and my VGA - on my Samsung HLN4365W. I used to use an HTPC over DVI and VGA as my main upconverting DVD player, so I had done extensive calibration of my display.

With the 360, going from component at 720p to VGA at 720p, the main difference for me was VGA was a bit sharper. I adjusted the brightness setting to the correct level (this brought the color saturation of the default blade colors on the Dashboard to the same saturation as I had on component), and the colors and picture look very similar, if not the same. The difference is just sharpness, which I can see in the text on the Dashboard blades, and noticed in games like Gears of War where everything seemed sharper and seemed to pop more.

I still have the GoW ad on my 360, so I just played it back right now. Pausing at that part of the video where he's looking up, mine looks more like your component image, but much better (as I'm sure yours does as well). The image you have has exaggerated contrast, where it looks like there is a very bright light shining on his face with dark shadows. I'm sure yours doesn't actually look like that. But on mine I the face is pretty even as far as color, flesh tone and lighting/contrast.

Maybe your TV (what TV do you have?) just has a shoddy VGA input. I have a widescreen LCD monitor at work, a nice Dell 24", but the video inputs and scaling are pretty bad. Component on the 360 looks blurry and messy compared to the clarity of the VGA cables.

Robocop2

03-31-07, 11:07 AM

edcokpareke

03-31-07, 12:39 PM

Have you calibrated your display, not just the user controls, but the actual service menu?

With the 360, going from component at 720p to VGA at 720p, the main difference for me was VGA was a bit sharper. I adjusted the brightness setting to the correct level (this brought the color saturation of the default blade colors on the Dashboard to the same saturation as I had on component), and the colors and picture look very similar, if not the same. The difference is just sharpness, which I can see in the text on the Dashboard blades, and noticed in games like Gears of War where everything seemed sharper and seemed to pop more.

Yes....yes I have calibrated my display; not only from the user manu, but I've gone into the service menu to mess with things like Iris, overscan, gamma, etc. I have a Sammy HLS5688W, and I'm speaking for my tv type specifically. I don't doubt that VGA is giving you a "sharper" picture on 'your' TV, but it's most definately NOT giving me a sharper picture on mine.

Again, Yes...yes I've calibrated and re-calibrated.

red71rum

03-31-07, 07:11 PM

I just got the VGA cable today and so far I like it. I am running at 1080p on my Samsung 4695D. The text does seem clearer to me in games such as Gears of War. I was disappointed that I could only change brightness and contrast on my set and the the color temperature of the tv, compared to my component connection for the 360, where there are several more tweaks available. I will watch Casino Royale and see if it looks good to me.

cyberbri

03-31-07, 11:28 PM

Yes....yes I have calibrated my display; not only from the user manu, but I've gone into the service menu to mess with things like Iris, overscan, gamma, etc. I have a Sammy HLS5688W, and I'm speaking for my tv type specifically. I don't doubt that VGA is giving you a "sharper" picture on 'your' TV, but it's most definately NOT giving me a sharper picture on mine.

Again, Yes...yes I've calibrated and re-calibrated.

On my TV, an HLN, I can turn DNIE on/off for the inputs it's used. I think it's off by default for VGA with no option to change it. I don't like DNIE, mainly for the drastic artificial sharpening it adds, not to mention altering the gamma and everything.

I think on newer Samsungs the DNIE might be stuck on ON. If that is the case for your TV, with VGA not using DNIE, I can see why component would be much sharper - it's running DNIE.

Whatever the case may be... :D

jblank74

04-01-07, 03:24 PM

Tried them both and in retrospect, funny thing about VGA at first the colors did look washed out but after playing with the settings available colors are on par with component on my Bravia and sharper to boot

Must be nice to be able to adjust some options on a Bravia over VGA. My Bravia only gives me like 2 options for adjustment over VGA, so I can't tweak much.

sneals2000

04-02-07, 06:08 AM

Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere - but there is a known problem with the 360 VGA output set-up. This may cause problems with some displays (particularly those that don't alow custom settings for different inputs, or those that have reduced settings for RGB VGA inputs)

The issue is that the VGA output of the 360 seems to be based on "Video" not "PC" digital levels incorrectly converted back to analogue levels, as well as some other timing fudges.

In PC land 8 bit video - digital black is 0 and digital white is 255 (or 100% RGB is 255 and 0% RGB are 0)

In Video land 8 bit video - digital black (or 0% RGB) is 16 and digital white (or 100% RGB) is 235.

When connected using an analogue component or RGB connection (like VGA) - irrespective of the PC or Video levels of the source, black should be at blanking level and white should be at 0.7 V above this. (Whether black is 0V or 0.3V and white 0.7V or 1V depends on how syncs are implemented)

(NB There should be no NTSC 7.5IRE set-up on a component or RGB source - only an SD NTSC composite or S-video source, and not on an NTSC-J one)

The XBox 360 seems to correctly output Component HD with the right levels. However when outputting in VGA - it seems to be delivering a black level with set-up (probably the difference between 0 and 16?) which means blacks appear grey and colours may appear de-saturated. It is almost as if the 360 is feeding digital Video levels into an output stage configured to accept digital PC levels, and thus the black level is incorrectly set.

By reducing the brightness control on many displays this can be compensated for (though it may not address the de-saturation, just the black level) - so for many this is not an issue.

However it demonstrates a major issue in Microsoft's understanding of analogue and digital video systems... AIUI it is likely to be fixed in an upcoming firmware release?

zangmann

04-02-07, 09:34 AM

According to this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10176889&&#post10176889

Answering other questions, both Xbox 360 Elite and current Xbox 360 units will have a spring (console) update which adds support for different video levels for VGA output (“7.5 IRE vs 0”). And as someone mentioned, using this setting you should be able to use computer monitors in addition to TVs with resolutions all the way up to 1080p with high fidelity and no issues with HDCP handshaking. So for current users, I highly recommend trying this update with your VGA connection to see if it does the job for you. Note that this is a console update and will work for both games and of course, HD DVD. The HD DVD software update is separate from this (and will be available on both Xbox Live and xbox.com).

Hopefully things will improve with these offending VGA sets.

shine5555

04-02-07, 01:14 PM

Egret

04-02-07, 02:44 PM

EricM407

04-02-07, 08:05 PM

The issue is that the VGA output of the 360 seems to be based on "Video" not "PC" digital levels incorrectly converted back to analogue levels, as well as some other timing fudges.

In PC land 8 bit video - digital black is 0 and digital white is 255 (or 100% RGB is 255 and 0% RGB are 0)

In Video land 8 bit video - digital black (or 0% RGB) is 16 and digital white (or 100% RGB) is 235.

If this is the problem, I don't think the update will fix it. Assuming the update is what Amir said it is.

The XBox 360 seems to correctly output Component HD with the right levels. However when outputting in VGA - it seems to be delivering a black level with set-up (probably the difference between 0 and 16?) which means blacks appear grey and colours may appear de-saturated.

If this is the problem, the update will fix it.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you can fix a PC/video level mismatch with a setup switch. It will lower the black level (if the 360 is currently adding setup), but these are really two separate issues.

sneals2000

04-02-07, 08:32 PM

chrisherbert

04-03-07, 12:05 PM

I may be wrong about the cause of the set-up on the VGA output, I have read other reports that it is NTSC 7.5IRE set-up being applied, incorrectly, to RGB signals.

(AIUI it should only be added to US NTSC composite and S-video signals - not component or RGB signals, nor Japanese NTSC composite and S-video signals, as Japan doesn't use set-up and has black level at the same level as blanking)

It is really "incorrect" to use video levels over RGB? I imagine that the image is rendered internally at video levels (16-235), and if your display can support it, why not use that? It will be nice to have support for 0-255 levels for the displays that cannot adjust enough but it isn't really "incorrect."

EricM407

04-03-07, 04:53 PM

It is really "incorrect" to use video levels over RGB? I imagine that the image is rendered internally at video levels (16-235), and if your display can support it, why not use that? It will be nice to have support for 0-255 levels for the displays that cannot adjust enough but it isn't really "incorrect."

I don't think it's a matter of correct or incorrect. It's what do most displays support? Most displays on the VGA input probably expect to be receiving PC levels, because most of them would be hooked to a PC on that input. And most don't offer a lot of control on that input, because most expect those sorts of things to be done at the source (the PC).

As far as the post you were replying to, that's a separate issue, although if either is done incorrectly the effect on black level will be pretty much the same. And sneals2000 is right about the way things should be done.

seanrh

04-03-07, 09:31 PM

Well is there any way to get decent colors over VGA into a PC LCD? I'm using a Dell E228WFP and it looks awful.

BoominTempo

04-04-07, 01:40 AM

telcart

04-04-07, 11:06 AM

OK somewhat off topic but.... What brand of Cable you guys using? I looked at Amazon 40.00 seemed high for the Microsoft version. Also I need to run the digital audio out, and the Microsoft one appeared to only have left and right out?

Thanks,
-Scott

I first bought the Microsoft version off eBay for about $10, I assumed it would work on my regular modded XBOX but it didn't, so I ended up using it with my friends XBOX360. The quality was great, I ended up using it with my 17" LCD monitor at 1280x1024. I just purchased another one for $6 and I'm assuming it's going to be the same. $40 buys you the Microsoft name, these cables certainly aren't worth much. However, be sure to look for one with the optical output if you're going to be connecting a home theater system. Not all of them include this, these are usually the ones that sell for $1.99 on eBay.

cyberbri

04-04-07, 11:17 AM

I use an off-brand VGA cable. Got it for $20 at Microcenter, came with a nice toslink cable. Looks great.

sneals2000

04-07-07, 09:00 PM

It is really "incorrect" to use video levels over RGB?

Yes - if that is what is going on. An analogue video signal has a defined black level. If you don't output a black area of the picture at this level it is wrong.

Whether the source is digital video at PC levels or digital video at Video levels, the analogue version should be at the right standard.

PC levels and Video levels are only relevant to the digital represenation of a video signal - NOT the analogue representation. PC digital video levels are slightly narrower in range to avoid truncation of overshoots and undershoots of analogue signals which would otherwise cause ringing if truncated, and also allow a little tolerance for slightly out of spec signals.

However this is a digital representation issue - the analogue signals are NOT different in the PC and Video domain in the same way.

I imagine that the image is rendered internally at video levels (16-235), and if your display can support it, why not use that? It will be nice to have support for 0-255 levels for the displays that cannot adjust enough but it isn't really "incorrect."

But VGA isn't a digital signal - it is an analogue signal - there is no 16-235 or 0-255 on an analogue signal. An analogue signal should be just 0V to 0.7V. If you don't put black at 0V then it is wrong - plain and simple. Either Microsoft should scale 16-235 to 0-255 for D/A conversion (though you then lose the undershoot and overshoot WTW and BTB information), or their D/A converters should be able to set 16 as 0V and 235 as 0.7V? You MAY be able to correct it in the display - but it doesn't make it right. If broadcasters making shows, or consumer electronics manufacturers making DVD players and Satellite/Cable boxes, took this view and ignored standards we'd all be adjusting our brightness, colour and contrast controls as we changed channels or sources...

Reading more on the subject suggests that in the XBox 360 case it may be incorrectly applied 7.5IRE "NTSC set-up" that North American NTSC applies to composite and S-video (but not Component or RGB - including VGA AFAIK) signals, rather than a PC vs Video levels issue (though given that this has been an issue in the past with Media Center, I'm still not entirely convinced).

This is NOT applied to Component, RGB, Digital video anywhere or NTSC composite/S-video in Japan, nor is it applied in any 50Hz PAL or SECAM area on any signal. In all of these areas Black is at the same level as blanking, which is 0V (or 0.3V if you take syncs as 0V rather than -0.3V)

For some reason it is suggested that Microsoft seem to be applying it to the VGA outputs... Most odd...

sneals2000

04-07-07, 09:05 PM

I don't think it's a matter of correct or incorrect. It's what do most displays support? Most displays on the VGA input probably expect to be receiving PC levels, because most of them would be hooked to a PC on that input. And most don't offer a lot of control on that input, because most expect those sorts of things to be done at the source (the PC).

"Video and PC" levels don't exist in the analogue domain... They are purely different in the digital domain. An analogue video signal should meet the analogue spec - whether sourced from a digital signal with video levels or PC levels. The D/A and output stages should deliver the right black level and white level voltages pure and simple. (Of course if they aren't implemented properly then you then lose <16 and >235 values with Video level signals)

Dadbart

04-07-07, 09:14 PM

Either Microsoft should scale 16-235 to 0-255 for D/A conversion (though you then lose the undershoot and overshoot WTW and BTB information), or their D/A converters should be able to set 16 as 0V and 235 as 0.7V? Reading more on the subject suggests that in the XBox 360 case it may be incorrectly applied 7.5IRE "NTSC set-up" .

That is exactly what it is doing. However, the Spring update for 360 will include a new option to select between 0 and 7.5, that should fix the problem for most sets.

cyberbri

04-08-07, 08:56 PM

So which would be the correct setting, 0 or 7.5? Does it depend on the display?

I was able to calibrate my DLP to 360's VGA output. I had actually calibrated my display when I used an HTPC over VGA, so the color temp and everything was good. I just adjusted the brightness level to have black be black when I hooked it up with VGA.

sneals2000

04-09-07, 05:48 AM

So which would be the correct setting, 0 or 7.5? Does it depend on the display?

AIUI - it shouldn't. I may be wrong, but AIUI VGA RGB signals should not have 7.5IRE applied to them, they should have black at 0V, not 7.5IRE.

AIUI American NTSC Composite / S-video are the only analogue signals that should have 7.5IRE applied to them (though I believe SOME consumer YPrPb component implementations may also apply it - though this is deemed incorrect by many - and it is NOT applied to modern broadcast YPrPb outputs)

Japanese NTSC Composite/S-video and PAL/SECAM should not have 7.5IRE applied.

I was able to calibrate my DLP to 360's VGA output. I had actually calibrated my display when I used an HTPC over VGA, so the color temp and everything was good. I just adjusted the brightness level to have black be black when I hooked it up with VGA.

Yep - you had to reduce your brightness to offset the incorrect black level on the VGA output of the XBox compared to your PC. You shouldn't really have had to.

I suspect your PC was outputting blacks at 0IRE and your XBox at 7.5IRE.

(A lot of digital video consumer devices - like DVD players - sold have optional 7.5IRE - which should be on if you are using an NTSC composite/s-video link in the US, but not if you are in Europe or Japan, and in many cases it may need to be off if you are using component interconnects, if the set-up is also applied to these)

KyaDawn

04-09-07, 06:03 AM

I haven't done an A/B test, but when I had my 360 and plasma connected via component and then VGA (so that I can use the component input for something else), I didn't notice any difference. One advantage of VGA, though, is that your 360 can upscale DVDs whereas it can't on DVD. Not a big deal if you have a decent scaler in your display. Also, VGA can output 1080p if your display can support it whereas component can't.

Jeff Flowerday

04-09-07, 11:10 AM

257Tony

04-09-07, 06:41 PM

Well, after much testing and playing around with settings, I am switching back to component from the VGA. I have decided that both cable shave their advantages, but the overall winner on my TV is the component. The colors are richer and more accurate, and believe it or not the picture is actually cleaner. I have the Samsung 6187w with the 360 set to 1080p, of course my HD movies only run at 1080i now, but I think I will survive. I was dead set on VGA until I really tested it out....

formulanerd

04-09-07, 08:58 PM

257Tony

04-09-07, 11:59 PM

wait for the spring update, i think you'll be pleasantly surprised.
Lets hope so, even though I sold my premium today (got an offer I couldn't pass up) and will be getting an Elite on launch day.

moss312

05-09-07, 11:55 AM

With the latest update component still looks better than VGA on my Samsung HLR6168. The VGA color is better now than before the update. But component still has better detail.

cyberbri

05-09-07, 12:33 PM

I'm going to ask for clarification of the three VGA settings.

chrisherbert

05-09-07, 01:38 PM

I'm going to ask for clarification of the three VGA settings.

Looks like standard is the old (7 ire) black level, extended is PC level (0 ire), and intermediate is somewhere between. People have said that extended makes it impossible to see portions of certain test patterns, but that could just be blacker than black data, which of course will be clipped at PC levels.

edcokpareke

05-09-07, 02:02 PM

With the latest update component still looks better than VGA on my Samsung HLR6168. The VGA color is better now than before the update. But component still has better detail.

Agreed.

On my HLS5688W, VGA still appears blurry.

chrisherbert

05-09-07, 02:15 PM

Agreed.

On my HLS5688W, VGA still appears blurry.

A lack of edge enhancement, maybe?

cyberbri

05-09-07, 02:21 PM

Yup. I did a few preliminary test here and in the post below it:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10499990&&#post10499990

And the technical side of it is discussed here:
http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=7216

Once I get some time, I can transfer some test pattern pictures over to my 360 to check BTB, etc.

Anyone who wants to look into viewing some test pattern images directly on their 360, test for BTB pass-through, etc. without needing a calibration DVD, can get them here on this calibration thread of mine:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=523614

cyberbri

05-09-07, 02:27 PM

Agreed.

On my HLS5688W, VGA still appears blurry.

As Chris mentioned, it may be the fact that DNIe isn't applied to VGA, while it is on by default on Component. I have a HLN, and I can luckily turn it on/off. I don't like what it does with sharpening, especially on fine detail. You may just be used to that sharpened look.

VegasFlyby

05-09-07, 03:38 PM

Maybe someone can help me out here. I went back to VGA since the Spring update this morning and love it. Colors and blacks now look great. But on GH2 the picture looks cropped on all sides. This is the only game I'm experiencing this on. When I press the Xbox button on the controller the menu slides out and that isn't cropped at all.

My TV is a Sony KDL46s2000 LCD. The resolution is set to 1366x768.

Some photos...

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g32/vegasflyby/CIMG0501.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g32/vegasflyby/CIMG0503.jpg

Biddy

05-09-07, 03:39 PM

its the game

VegasFlyby

05-09-07, 03:44 PM

its the game

Is it just over VGA because it didn't do it over component?

chrisherbert

05-09-07, 03:47 PM

Is it just over VGA because it didn't do it over component?

Overscan may hide that on component

VegasFlyby

05-09-07, 03:50 PM

Overscan may hide that on component

Gotcha....thanks for the help guys.

edcokpareke

05-09-07, 04:18 PM

As Chris mentioned, it may be the fact that DNIe isn't applied to VGA, while it is on by default on Component. I have a HLN, and I can luckily turn it on/off. I don't like what it does with sharpening, especially on fine detail. You may just be used to that sharpened look.

DNIE is (and always has been) off on all inputs of my TV. It's not an EE problem. Its just simply blurry...can't explain, but others have experienced the same thing.

cyberbri

05-09-07, 04:28 PM

cyberbri

05-09-07, 04:31 PM

DNIE is (and always has been) off on all inputs of my TV. It's not an EE problem. Its just simply blurry...can't explain, but others have experienced the same thing.

Have you tried hooking a PC or laptop up to it? If it was blurry, you'd be able to tell with text or some test patterns or single-pixel lines.

On my 43" HLN, using my HTPC text and images were razor-sharp when I had it hooked up...

chrisherbert

05-09-07, 04:52 PM

Could be that you're doing 1366x768. Try changing it to 1280x720, let the TV do the scaling, and see what happens. That resolution isn't available with component.

Since the Xbox system menu takes up the entire screen, I think it's the game rather than his TV.

chrisherbert

05-09-07, 04:53 PM

DNIE is (and always has been) off on all inputs of my TV. It's not an EE problem. Its just simply blurry...can't explain, but others have experienced the same thing.

What brand of VGA cables are you using? Have you tried 1280x720, and let the TV do the scaling?

cyberbri

05-09-07, 08:39 PM

Since the Xbox system menu takes up the entire screen, I think it's the game rather than his TV.

But the menu could extend past for overscan, as a possibility. It won't hurt to see what happens running at 720p and let the TV do the scaling.

VegasFlyby

05-09-07, 08:41 PM

But the menu could extend past for overscan, as a possibility. It won't hurt to see what happens running at 720p and let the TV do the scaling.

It fills the entire screen at 720p/component. It only gets cropped over VGA. I played several games and GH2 is the only one suffering from this abnormality. It's not a huge deal, but it is eating away at my perfectionist personality just a little :)

chrisherbert

05-10-07, 01:29 AM

It fills the entire screen at 720p/component. It only gets cropped over VGA. I played several games and GH2 is the only one suffering from this abnormality. It's not a huge deal, but it is eating away at my perfectionist personality just a little :)

I think it's very likely that it's being "cropped" at all resolution, but that your TV cuts out a little bit of the image on component. That's pretty standard behavior.

Many of the Xbox 1 games didn't completely fill the screen, since they assumed that the TV's overscan would hide it. Xbox 360 games are much better in that respect, but I guess some are still around.

viper257

05-10-07, 11:44 AM

After update on my lnr269D, through VGA the picture looks detailed and colors look richer, the only problem is it is to dark.. at least playing Halo2 I had to turn
brightness up to 99 and it still was not as bright as component at 65

for now I will have to stay with component. I have a HDMI input on the TV
but dont think it will make that much of a difference to justify an elite

Maybe the problem is H2 specific ( not really made for the 360)
any thoughts... :confused:

cyberbri

05-10-07, 12:05 PM

You need to use some test patterns, like those found on Avia, DVE, even the THX-certified DVDs (like those from Pixar) to see what kind of black level you are getting out of the 360. It may be that you need to go with Standard or something. Does your display have any picture presets or user adjustments besides brightness/contrast ("brightness" is black level - turn up "contrast" (white level) if you want the picture to be brighter without washing it out, or brightness if the issue is dark shadowy areas).

Cowdisease

05-10-07, 01:17 PM

I mentioned this before in other VGA threads (I think including this one), but here's something to keep in mind in regards to component vs VGA. When I used the Avia calibration DVD for my Sceptre 32" LCD set, the calibrated settings for component and VGA were different. It's plausible that you are noticing VGA as inferior to component because its settings haven't been optimized like component.

todzla

05-10-07, 01:18 PM

Used VGA before the update, and used it after. Guess what? It looks better! I love VGA on my Samsung HL-S series.

zangmann

05-10-07, 01:27 PM

Changed to VGA on a Samsung HLR. Blacks look great after a calibration but there seems to be white crush. Back into the SM i go, i guess. Anyone have any tips on how to minimize the problem on this model?

chrisherbert

05-10-07, 01:30 PM

inteller

05-10-07, 01:33 PM

anyone checked out the Reference settings for VGA? I tried them and I didn't notice a difference. I didn't know if this was because I had already calibrated my TV or Panasonics didn't exhibit this problem.

cyberbri

05-10-07, 01:41 PM

The Reference Level settings change the black level. You'll only notice on pictures, test patterns, and material with dark 'shadowy' areas. Test patterns that show blacks and dark greys are best for testing.

zangmann

05-10-07, 03:40 PM

Lower the contrast?

Ya, the contrast goes all the way to 0 and there is still no differentiating the white boxes on various test patterns. Ex. on the DVE test pattern "Reverse Gray Ramps & Steps" (Title 12, Chapter 14) Clipping occurs well before the 3 vertical dots. Same thing happens when viewing a .jpg of the test on the 360. I don't think i had this problem with the component cables.

chrisherbert

05-10-07, 04:02 PM

Ya, the contrast goes all the way to 0 and there is still no differentiating the white boxes on various test patterns. Ex. on the DVE test pattern "Reverse Gray Ramps & Steps" (Title 12, Chapter 14) Clipping occurs well before the 3 vertical dots. Same thing happens when viewing a .jpg of the test on the 360. I don't think i had this problem with the component cables.

I'm not familiar with DVE's test patterns, but is that whiter than white information? Anything other than "standard" reference levels will clip that.

cyberbri

05-10-07, 04:28 PM

chrisherbert

05-10-07, 05:12 PM

Use different patterns. Lowering the "Contrast" lowers the white level, which should reduce the overall perceived brightness of the picture, making it dull.

If 0 and 100 (or full) on the Contrast slider have no effect, maybe those controls don't work at all for VGA on your display.

Contrast controls can have unusual or non-intuitive effects on non-CRT displays. Mine is the same way -- even if you raise the contrast all the way, detail isn't really washed out, but the picture becomes unpleasant in ways that are hard to describe. It also doesn't bloom or do anything of the other things associated with high contrast on CRTs.

zangmann

05-10-07, 05:36 PM

I'm not familiar with DVE's test patterns, but is that whiter than white information? Anything other than "standard" reference levels will clip that.

Heres the image i was referring to
http://www.avical.com/UserFiles/Image/CROSS.jpg

There shouldnt be clipping before the vertical dots on the white portion correct? You should be able to see steps prior to the dots.

cyberbri

05-10-07, 05:57 PM

Contrast controls can have unusual or non-intuitive effects on non-CRT displays. Mine is the same way -- even if you raise the contrast all the way, detail isn't really washed out, but the picture becomes unpleasant in ways that are hard to describe. It also doesn't bloom or do anything of the other things associated with high contrast on CRTs.

Exactly. Over on my HTPC calibration thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=523614) (from way back), I talked about not noticing any adverse effects with test patterns until I was WAY up on Contrast in the Service Menu, but using certain scenes in Finding Nemo DVD as a real-world test, I found that past a certain point in combination of Contrast (main) and Color (secondary), I could introduce and fix excessive banding in the water. I would use that as a gauge to know where to turn the Contrast up to.

Even on CRTs, like my parents' 2 Sony CRT RPTVs, using Avia and other patterns I couldn't get them to bloom in the traditional sense.

cyberbri

05-10-07, 05:58 PM

Heres the image i was referring to
http://www.avical.com/UserFiles/Image/CROSS.jpg

There shouldnt be clipping before the vertical dots on the white portion correct? You should be able to see steps prior to the dots.

Yes. Go for the larger Original image (it may be a .gif, so you may need to re-save it as jpg).

cyberbri

05-10-07, 05:59 PM

Here are some better images to test limits of black and white - 1280x720 gif files, custom-made:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5413832&&#post5413832
What I did was convert them to grayscale (from indexed), saved them to jpg, and put them on my digital camera to view on the 360.

From this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=523614

cyberbri

05-11-07, 12:51 AM

STANDARD and EXPANDED, on top of changing the black level, also change the WHITE LEVEL.

I just finsihed some extensive testing, and I verified that STANDARD really is Video levels, 16-235, while EXPANDED is 0-255. If you set the black and white level properly with STANDARD, then switch to EXPANDED, the dark areas blend into black, and the light areas get brighter. This is why people report colors looking more vibrant with Expanded. The white level is raised, making the picture brighter and colors more vibrant.

In order to match the black/white level between Standard and Expanded on my TV, these are the settings I got:
Standard = Brightness (black setting) = 50; Contrast (white setting) = 96
Expanded = Brightness = 62; Contrast = 82

In other words, I previously had my TV calibrated for Standard (Video levels). But switching to Expanded changed the black and white levels (expanded the range) so that black was down further than it was before (had to turn up Brightness to get the correct level), and white was further up than it was before (had to turn Contrast way down).

I discovered this with the Default dashboard theme. Switching from Standard to Expanded, I mainly noticed the white level changing because as the colors slowly swirled in the background, I got banding in Expanded from too high a white level (Contrast). So I turned Contrast (white level) down to where the banding went away. I had seen this with Finding Nemo previously (in certain water scenes), and double-checked there. Sure enough both black and white are being "expanded" with Expanded.

So STANDARD really does equal Video levels 16-235, and EXPANDED is PC levels of 0-255. Expanded takes the Video levels from DVD, HD-DVD, and games, and expands that out so black is at 0 (lower) instead of 16, and white is at 255 (higher) rather than 235. You can achieve the same result with Standard by turning the Brightness (black setting) down and Contrast (white setting) up. This fixes the black/dark areas and makes the picture "brighter" (brighter whites/colors). And I recommend this if you feel like calibrating the brightness/contrast levels. This way you aren't throwing away information from Video 16-235 levels and not clipping/crushing whites.

Using Expanded, you are clipping blacks and whites. Checking with THX Dropshadow screen on Monsters Inc., Standard showed BTB info (levels below "16"), and with Expanded the BTB areas were gone, clipped. Because Expanded takes black-16 and re-maps it to 0, and white-235 and re-maps it to 255. You lose the information there with Expanded. The information isn't 100% crucial, but it's better to have it passed to the display than not.

IF YOU TRY STANDARD AND EXPANDED, you have to adjust both Brightness (black level) and Contrast (white level). It should give basically the same results if properly calibrated on both sides. (write down your calibrated settings for both so you can switch between the two).

cyberbri

05-11-07, 01:09 AM

Here is a good image to use to set black level (see attachment to this message for un-altered image w/o AVS stamp):

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/508/thx-dropshadow-btb.jpg

It's a level-accurate image of the usual "THX Dropshadow" screen on THX-certified DVDs. Except the DVDs are pretty inconsistent (except I have found the one on Monster's Inc to be pretty accurate).

Viewing this image on the 360 (save to USB device, view through Pictures), using STANDARD or EXPANDED, you should set the black level (Brightness setting) to where the areas labeled "7" - like the dropshadow behind the THX - appear black, but 10 and above show varying shades of dark grey. I verified this using the Avia disc to get the correct Brightness level for both Standard and Expanded, then went and checked to see what this image looked like and what appeared as black or above. Doing this should get you very close to the proper black level.

White level is another matter, since different displays act differently when Contrast (white level) is set too high. I know I get banding in certain color gradations, like this scene in Finding Nemo (you can see the time stamp, but this is at the end of the jellyfish scene, right before it transitions to the next chapter). If my Contrast is too high (or Color setting), I get severe banding starting from near the right top corner.

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/508/Finding_Nemo.JPG

(Although saving this image to my camera and viewing it on the 360, I don't get banding like I do, as easily, when viewing the actual FN DVD through the 360. The picture viewer on the 360 may be off on the levels a bit)

And here are test pattern generator programs that you should be able to get images of using PRINTSCREEN is here:
http://www.mooneyass.com/testpatterns/
The Phillips is very robust, and the NEC is pretty simple but has good spots you can take. These images can be saved to a USB device and viewed on the 360.

I assume this will all work on the PS3 as well (although I don't know what level on the THX image or other images to aim for - best to use Avia to verify). Although at least with a Test Kit PS3 we have at work, I had to rename jpgs saved on my camera to the camera's naming format, because it wouldn't read images with regular "reference black.jpg" type namings.

chrisherbert

05-11-07, 10:48 AM

So jpegs actually work for setting levels on the 360? I would've thought that the 360 was doing some processing of the images that made them less useful for this purpose.

TV Casualty

05-11-07, 11:17 AM

VGA looks a bit better to me for games and HD DVD, I stick with that.

With standard DVDs it's no contest, since there is no upscaling via component.

cyberbri

05-11-07, 12:45 PM

So jpegs actually work for setting levels on the 360? I would've thought that the 360 was doing some processing of the images that made them less useful for this purpose.

It's apparently close enough if you don't have access to a setup disc.

zangmann

05-11-07, 12:58 PM

I would venture a guess that depending on the source, the 360 does various processing. Meaning images/DVD/HD-DVD/Games are all processed differently. I recently downloaded the NBA Live '06 Demo from the Marketplace and plan on recalibrating using this, as games are what i most use the 360 for.

cyberbri, thanks for all the help!

cyberbri

05-11-07, 01:08 PM

Images may possibly be handled differently with regards to VGA Standard vs Expanded, but ideally DVD and HD-DVD are handled the same. They are both encoded in 16-235 Video levels, sometimes with information above/below that. Games should also be using Video levels, since the console is hooked to a TV that expects Video levels. There may be games that have levels that are off, though, at least in parts. Example: the Halo 2 attract-mode movies have varying, inconsistent black level.

But unless NBA Live '06 has areas of the screen that are black, you can't really use it. If it does have black areas on the screen, you can adjust brightness up/down until you find where black turns into grey. This will probably be close to, if not the same as, what you would get using a setup disc or test pattern images. Assuming the levels in that game are accurate.

soccerluv

05-12-07, 10:39 AM

So, what are we saying, if you have an HDTV with vga, we should use Expanded?

cyberbri

05-12-07, 01:36 PM

So, what are we saying, if you have an HDTV with vga, we should use Expanded?

Yes, if you don't want to mess with the user settings (brightness, contrast, etc.). If you know what you're doing and can calibrate black and white level, use Standard and calibrate it properly.

santori_time

05-12-07, 02:01 PM

Yes, if you don't want to mess with the user settings (brightness, contrast, etc.). If you know what you're doing and can calibrate black and white level, use Standard and calibrate it properly.

Thanks for this information. I just finished a rough calibration of my LCD using the standard setting. I was getting way too much clipping of blacks and whites using expanded no matter how I adjusted the settings.

The interesting part (and the one that you clarified for me) was how the information below 16 would all get lost using expanded. I had never thought about that before but it makes sense. Thanks.

karlw2000

05-13-07, 08:31 AM

So, what are we saying, if you have an HDTV with vga, we should use Expanded?It depends on your TV. I have an older plasma with a VGA port that was designed to accept video levels. However, I could only use 720p on that port, but it looked very nice and had less overscan than when using component. That same xbox360/vga on my newer lcd at 1360x768 didn't have any overscan, but had the washed out colors. Now with the update, the colors are the same as through component when I use expanded mode.

Dadbart

05-13-07, 09:20 AM

It depends on your TV. I have an older plasma with a VGA port that was designed to accept video levels. However, I could only use 720p on that port, but it looked very nice and had less overscan than when using component. That same xbox360/vga on my newer lcd at 1360x768 didn't have any overscan, but had the washed out colors. Now with the update, the colors are the same as through component when I use expanded mode.

Exactly. While Cyberbri's comments are technically correct, a great many LCDs had a problem with the 360 on VGA, even with proper calibration. With expanded my Samsung 4095 is much better after re-calibrating.