I've had a Samsung 30" CRT HDTV for about 2 years and the lack of 720p for my 360 / PS3 and now 1080p for my HD DVD/ Blu Ray has made me decided its time to upgrade. I have my eye on the Samsung HLS5087. This TV upscales the component and vga inputs to 1080p according to Samsungs wesite. My questions for your 1080p 360 owners:

1 - Vga or Component ?

2- Is there any tv that has native 1080p VGA / Component Inputs ? Or more importantly should this even matter in my case. I want the 1080p output for my HD movies and the upcoming native 1080p 360 games ( Virtua Tennis 3 and NBA street)

I've used my PS3 on my friends 47" 1080p LG LCD and it looks fantastic but thats 'cuz the hdmi input is native 1080p. Would the image quality be comparable for the upscaled VGA / Component output for my 360 say I were to purchase the Samsung?

I have seen some 1080p Westinghouse models that claim to have 1080p VGA and component inputs but I can get this 50" DLP cheaper than the 47" Westinghouse model.

Or is the possibility of the newer HDMI equipped 360 my best bet, and yes its coming eventually.

Thanks in advance.

1080p over component is real on the Westinghouses and on Sharps and other brands.
VGA vs Component is a matter of taste *and* overscan settings. The ideal 1080p display should have zero overscan on the 1080p inputs either by default (Westinghouse) or switchable (Toshiba, Sharp, some Samsungs). Look around these forums; there's at least one thread listing displays with zero-overscan (aka, dot-by-dot, 1-t0-1 pixel mapping) on 1080 inputs.
You are more likely to get zero overscan on vga ports, which are intended for PCs and would thus suffer on overscanned ports, than on component or HDMI ports, which are intended for video and usually default to overscan.
That is one reason why some folks prefer VGA over component on sets that support both.
The other difference between VGA and component is that VGA uses 0-255 color level mapping and component uses 15-232 (or some such) color mapping to allow for "whiter-than-white" and "blacker-than-black" color encoding. Arguments can be made for either scheme.
That said, if you don't intend to upscale DVDs, 1080p vs 1080i isn't going to make much of a difference on a given set and port. Overscan, however, will impact the crispness of the image.
Finally, as to how an HDMI 1080p signal will compare to a VGA/Component signal; well, that is tricky. Theoretically, an HDMI port keeps the data solely in the digital domain and produces a cleaner image. But most current sets default HDMI ports to overscan modes and many have no override. So, even a small (2-3%) overscan can easily overwhelm the inherent crispness of the digital signal.

In other words; there is no clearcut absolute answer.
A good analog signal presented on a good quality display will look comparable or possibly better than a not so good HDMI signal on a not-so-good display and vice-versa.
Go with what your eyes tell you.
But if you care about the tech stuff, don't let them pawn off an overscanned display on you.
Just on principle.
Its all about accuracy: displaying what the console produces as accurately as possible.

there is a winner.

VGA.

true 1080p on VGA vs. upscaled on component it'll be upscaling 480p, so your HDDVDs wont look any different than a regular dvd upscaled from 480p to 1080p

as fjtorres said, 1080p over component can be native (not scaled) on a lot of TVs, but this isnt true while watching anything copy-protected (including reg dvd), max res on component w/ copy protect is 480p.

and you wont be comparing to "upscaled vga" because it doesnt exist. i'd like to see a 1080p tv that doesnt accept 1080p on vga.

there is a winner.

VGA.

true 1080p on VGA vs. upscaled on component it'll be upscaling 480p, so your HDDVDs wont look any different than a regular dvd upscaled from 480p to 1080p

as fjtorres said, 1080p over component can be native (not scaled) on a lot of TVs, but this isnt true while watching anything copy-protected (including reg dvd), max res on component w/ copy protect is 480p.

and you wont be comparing to "upscaled vga" because it doesnt exist. i'd like to see a 1080p tv that doesnt accept 1080p on vga.


Well thats what I was wondering about the VGA input on this model. According to the Samsung site the VGA is upscaled. link (http://www.samsung.com/ca/products/tv/dlptv/hls5087wxxac.asp)

And this is the 1080p TV (http://ca.lge.com/en/prodmodeldetail.do?actType=search&page=1&modelCategoryId=0101&categoryId=0101&parentId=01&modelCodeDisplay=47LB1DA&enlarge=%2Fen%2Fdown%2Fproduct%2F0101%2F47LB1DA%2F47LB1DA_LR G.jpg&model=Select+a+model#) the that my friend has and we were not able to get 1080p image over VGA or Component, just a blank screen in both cases. Which was why I brought this question up in the first place because I thought all 1080p TVs can output 1080p over a VGA.

Just some quick background info. I have an HLS5687W with my 360 hooked up via VGA, Digital Optical to my 5.1 receiver. I also have my cable box hooked up to the TV via HDMI.

On to the questions:

1. VGA! I've had the 360 connected to both and I completely prefer the VGA due to the following reasons.
a.) Easy correction of overscanning
b.) Sharper picture
c.) Fuller colors
d.) 1080p games & HD-DVD movies

2. As far as I know this TV displays 1080p natively through Component/VGA/HDMI. In general, this is a very flexible TV. Unfortunately it will be a while until I get a PS3, however, one of my friends has one on an 60' SXRD and he is still amazed by my PQ. Don't get me wrong, component is great too, but you will not be able to up-convert DVD's or display HD-DVD's in 1080p without the VGA. As far as the HDMI-enabled 360 goes, bah, I'm perfectly happy with the VGA 360.

Cheers,
Quik

i'm in the same boat as Quickzilver.... i love my VGA, dont care for HDMI, make the 360 cooler and quieter, and then we'll talk.



and for dankir.

your friends LG probably doesnt accept 1080p over component, not all tvs do, and some do but arent advertised... none are really "supposed to"

as for VGA at 1080p. if it doesnt work on the two sets you tried, maybe it's a problem with whatever your source was, was it a pc? maybe you need updated video drivers or something.

do you have your heart set on DLP? westinghouse has a mighty fine 47" LCD :)


i cant find anything on the website that says VGA is upscaled, but a little FYI, anything that ISNT 1080p will be upscalled by the set automatically to be viewed at native resolution.

I also vote for the Samsung. I have a HL-S5088 and I do not care for a Xbox with HDMI because the VGA is great for what I need. Plus I do not have enough HDMI inputs on the HLS or care to spend money on a receiver with a bunch of HDMI inputs at this moment. HLS is great.

WTF is with overscan why whould anyone buy a TV that does that

why cant you find this out like all the other useless crap that is in the owners manual like why wouldnt it say it overscans and it doesent support 1:1 pixel maping why not put this in the owners manual or better yet advertise it on the set it self with a huge sticker that says

"this set overscans by 5% for you viewing pleasure"
or
no 1:1 pixel maping because no one neads that WTF is wrong with TV makers and this crap they call a 1080p TV

WTF is with overscan why whould anyone buy a TV that does that



1- TVs have always had overscan. In the old days it was to make sure you never saw the "end of scanline" data that was embedded in the broadcast stream. CE companies got used to putting it overscan because if they didn't they got service calls about odd-colored lines on screen. Unfortunately, many CE companies kept overscanning as a design feature even on digital broadcasts that shouldn't need it. Think of it as a legacy "feature". "TVS with overscan were good enough for your grandfather so by jove they're good enough for you!"
2- The idiots running a *lot* of local stations broadcast facilities do not properly format their digital broadcast streams and often just simply pipe their crappy analog stream directly over the HD channels. Result? Onscreen garbage on the edges. And so, overscan endures as a "feature".
3- Of course, name-brand set manufacturers are a lazy, clueless bunch to start with, who load their sets with 20 features designed to make SD look good but can't be bothered to design in the features needed to display HD well. Odds are the cheaper second tier vendors pay more attention to this stuff than the "big guys" at Sony and Matsushita.

Caveat Emptor!

westinghouse is 1:1, no overscan, and i love it.

sooooo many broadcasts have garbage on the edges, but the fill button takes care of that :)

Thanks for the suggestions guy, i'll pick up the Samsung model then.

true 1080p on VGA vs. upscaled on component it'll be upscaling 480p, so your HDDVDs wont look any different than a regular dvd upscaled from 480p to 1080p

I'm not sure if I'm getting this. Your HD DVD's will look just how HD DVD's are supposed to look sending component from a 360 to a 1080P display and that is a lot better then a DVD.

ummm, no.

with component cables, you will be playing your HDDVD's at 480p. the same resolution as a normal dvd.

depending on the transfer etc, your hd might look a little better, but the same can be said for a dvd, each dvd looks different, some better than others.

but you will NOT get 1080p over component cables.


VGA: Games = 1080p, DVD = Upscaled 1080p, HDDVD = 1080p
Component: Games = 1080p (on select supported tv's), DVD = 480p, HDDVD = 480p

in theory, AACS restrictions constrain component output to max 540p for any source.

in theory, AACS restrictions constrain component output to max 540p for any source.

False. AACS by itself does not mandate this for all AACS-protected media; you are thinking of the Image Constraint Token within AACS. If this optional token is present, then downconversion over analog is required. HD-DVD 1080 line output is supported over component & VGA. As noted by others, many TVs don't support 1080p over component, but you can always output in 1080i over component. There are NO shipping titles that use Image Constraint Token, and it is popularly supposed that it will not be embedded in HD media until around 2011 or 2012. I am not sure there is a distinction between component & analog VGA made by AACS; if the ICT is present even VGA will only display 540P. The point is to stop analog capture cards from grabbing the signal in high-def.

You are correct that DVDs will only be displayed at 480P over component; you have to use VGA to get upconversion for ordinary DVDs on the XBox 360.

To summarize correctly, the 360 can do this:

VGA: Games = 1080p, DVD = Upscaled 1080p, HDDVD = 1080p
Component: Games = 1080p, DVD = 480p, HDDVD = 1080i

ummm, no.

with component cables, you will be playing your HDDVD's at 480p. the same resolution as a normal dvd.

but you will NOT get 1080p over component cables.


VGA: Games = 1080p, DVD = Upscaled 1080p, HDDVD = 1080p
Component: Games = 1080p (on select supported tv's), DVD = 480p, HDDVD = 480p

in theory, AACS restrictions constrain component output to max 540p for any source.

You are getting way confused with two things. SD DVD restrictions with Component that it cannot upscale and ICT flags that aren't being used with HD DVD and will never be used (you heard that here first).

You can get 720P or 1080i from your HD DVD player on a 360 and sending 1080i to a flat 1080P panel will result in near perfect duplication of 1080P. But how the heck I'm I supposed to know this? Oh yah that's right I have a 360 hooked up to a Westinghouse 1080P LCD and a 720P HD1000U projector.

ummm, no


VGA: Games = 1080p, DVD = Upscaled 1080p, HDDVD = 1080p
Component: Games = 1080p (on select supported tv's), DVD = 480p, HDDVD = 480p

in theory, AACS restrictions constrain component output to max 540p for any source.


i am not sure where you got your sources but MY HD-DVD addon displays 720p and 1080i over component. and yes 1080p for my games. In my personal opinion I can careless about upconverting my SD dvds, after watching hd-dvds i cannot go back to regular dvds. But thats me.

I also play HD DVD through the 360 over component at 1080i.

i am not sure where you got your sources but MY HD-DVD addon displays 720p and 1080i over component. and yes 1080p for my games. In my personal opinion I can careless about upconverting my SD dvds, after watching hd-dvds i cannot go back to regular dvds. But thats me.

but how many dvd's do you own? I my self have about 30, not much but all movie that I wanna see again, and I want to continue to rent new movies, I have not seen my local Rogers renting HDdvd yet, and until it does i think upscaling will be pretty important especially with only 203 hddvd titles availible so far.

^ But that wasn't even the point. Go get a $32 Bravo from NewEgg.

but how many dvd's do you own? I my self have about 30, not much but all movie that I wanna see again, and I want to continue to rent new movies, I have not seen my local Rogers renting HDdvd yet, and until it does i think upscaling will be pretty important especially with only 203 hddvd titles availible so far.


I have both blu-ray and hd dvd, i also use netflix to rent hd and blu ray movies. I have a huge collection of regular dvds, was just being sarcastic and makin a point that most likely i will not watch any of those movies again.

If its not on hd its usually on blu ray so I still view most of the new releases.

my mistake on the HD-DVD thing, my resolutions were wrong, but my point was still the same, no 1080p via component for DVD or HD-DVD.

As long as the upscaling over VGA doesn't have any adverse effects and I will still get 1080p over VGA the TV sounds great to me. Definitely gonna pick it up.

>>my mistake on the HD-DVD thing, my resolutions were wrong, but my point was still the same, no 1080p via component for DVD or HD-DVD.

HD-DVD is 1080 24P, you can kind of think of 1080i as 1080 30P. The point is 1080i can fully resolve HD-DVD.

I have a new 61" Sammy 1080P set and I watch HD-DVD over component at 1080i. I've also used the VGA cable and watched at 1080P, it didn't make any difference that I could notice. I prefer Component for the dashboard and games so I switched back to Component. Let me tell you this, watch the end of King Kong on my setup and your eyes will get blurry from tears of joy from the breath taking PQ.

Watching cable can be really really good at times (Discovery HD), but some HD is pretty crappy. I think the displays are way ahead of the content at this time. Even HD-DVD disc vary quite a bit.

I think people are nit-picking the displays a bit too much, they can display the content as if you are looking through a window. The question is really how good is the content.

I play in 1080p by sending the component in at 1080i to my crystalio II. Then the crystalio II deinterlaces it to 1080p, then sends it to my Ruby. It looks so good at times you can even make out the pixels! :eek:

If you have a digital display with 1920 X 1080 resolution you will always be seeing 1080p. Digital displays are progressive by default.

The question to answer is whether your xbox is better at deinterlacing than your tv. I think my 60" XBR2 probably has a better scaler than the 360. I bet the RS1 I have on preorder will have a better deinterlacer than the 360.

1080p from the xbox is a moot point until they start releasing games rendered at 1080p.

I play in 1080p by sending the component in at 1080i to my crystalio II. Then the crystalio II deinterlaces it to 1080p, then sends it to my Ruby. It looks so good at times you can even make out the pixels! :eek:


at $5,500 i hope it works great. i choose to use a vga cable and let the 360 process my 1080p

The question to answer is whether your xbox is better at deinterlacing than your tv. I think my 60" XBR2 probably has a better scaler than the 360.


i'd be willing to bet that the xbox, or any source will de-interlace better than the majority of HD sets out there.


1080p from the xbox is a moot point until they start releasing games rendered at 1080p.

so.... like in 5 days?
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=12680

or next month? http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=12664