Finally watching some older Blu-ray discs that were sitting, unwatched, next to my player. The grain in the light areas is pretty bad! This doesn’t look like any codec problem (grain replication should take up more space) that I am familiar with and I doubt the films ever looked this bad in a theatre. Did the fault lie in some piss poor scanning procedure used on these early releases? It is almost as if the software handling the scanned images used dithering to compensate for poor color depth which would naturally stray from frame to frame. Has a consensus been reached as to what the problem was? If it was the scanning software/hardware I hope to god they burned it. Dark Water and Sleepy Hollow are two examples of this poor type of transfer.

your setup possibly?? i don't have any problems. no more grain then hddvd.

Sleepy Hollow are two examples of this poor type of transfer.

You are quite wrong. Do some research.

You didn’t see grain with Sleepy Hollow? With my setup the faces are dancing with pixels that do not stop. Never occurred to me my setup might be at fault because it plays other discs to perfection. Of course if no one else is seeing this – well I’m in trouble then.

(I’m not downing Blu-ray. Whatever the problem is I fail to see what the format has to do with it.)

You didn’t see grain with Sleepy Hollow? With my setup the faces are dancing with pixels that do not stop. Never occurred to me my setup might be at fault because it plays other discs to perfection. Of course if no one else is seeing this – well I’m in trouble then.

(I’m not downing Blu-ray. Whatever the problem is I fail to see what the format has to do with it.)

This is particular to this title, Tim Burton added grain in to give it an old look, Steven Speilberg have done that with WOTW, and his last like 4 movies, the new film 300 use it too.

All film have grain, some more than the others, that depend of the type of film used/ISO etc. Video Camera have less but tend to feel to digital but are nice for documentaries and live sport, Digital Camera for movies have another problems, Video Noise, witch is worst than grain IMHO and it's easy to see in Genesis Video Cam on Click and Superman Returns

I suggest you do some research into how film is supposed to look!

in a nutshell this is normal and natural (your Sleepy Hollow is example is a extreme because it has grain added post for effect), you have been hidden from it by low resolution SD DVD for years which doesn't have the ability to show true film grain

-Gary

We are starting to get more movies shot using digital hdcams. LOTR and KK and Crank, Flyboys appear to be done that way.

Note I am not averse to film grain, KoH is still my favourite all rounded title, but I think the scanning of the film is essentially like putting a hdcam real close to the analog film. The CCD in the scanner just acts like the CCD in the camera...

Well, I am not going to argue it (too much). After all you may be right. Tell you one thing, watching it 92" over a 1080p projector Sleepy Hollow looks like sh*t. Unforgiven is film grain, Superman is film grain, American Psycho is film grain, Sleepy Hollow is something gone wrong. Added grain looks like that in Syriana, it looks like Monster House; it looks, in an extreme case, like the beginning of Phantom of the Opera. In other words, it is uniform. Sleepy Hollow is too distracting and shade dependent to be fully explained by a filter - it just couldn't look like that at the theatre. Some of you guys need to do less research and more watching ;)

Neo1965, yeah I don't know. It just seemed to me as the only link in the chain which doesn't get much attention from users because it has nothing to do with the format war. I am sure there is a range of equipment being used. Does the scanning accentuate the grain in lighter areas? How is the file first saved. How much adjustment to the movie (contrast, lightness, and detail) is done digitally instead of being set by the scanner? They have been scanning film from the first days of CG so I would think they have it down. Then again, Sleep Hollow looks bad.

humbert,
the bd and the hddvd of sleepy hollow look identical, so it's not bd causing the problem for you with that title.
(edited for clarity)
just in case you were wondering if it was the BD format itself...
:)

The way you describe the grain as "dancing around" it sounds like compression artifacts or macroblocking.......I haven't seen this on any HD releases (HD DVD or Blu Ray) but I also can't stand it.........grain on the other hand is perfectly acceptable.

Sleepy Hollow was the most disappointing title I have bought so far on the format, it was a very bad and grainy image. This is the only title I actually preferred watching in DVD over HD DVD or BD!

This is what DVD Talk had to say:
Grain is visible by design in many scenes, more so than the DVD by virtue of the better resolution exposing it in greater clarity, which may not please viewers hoping for a squeaky clean digital image. The opening credits look the roughest in this regard.

This is what HighDef had to say:
It's is a very grainy image, with the majority of the film veiled by a thin veneer of jumping, alive movement. Just check out the opening credits -- the film has been so drained of color as to almost be black and white, contrast flattened, and dark areas fall off into black like a steep flick.

I saw Sleepy Hollow opening day in the theater and it looked EXACTLY like the BD.
If you don't like they way it looks, it's not the transfer itself's fault. It's just faithfully reproducing the flick.

Humbert didn't even MENTION HD-DVD in his original post.....why even bring it up MSpeed6, Dave Mack???? A little over-protective, don't you think??

Woah, relax sparky. Did I say anything bad about HDdvd?
The OP mentioned BD twice so I was just trying to clarify that one of these titles looked the same on BOTH formats so it wasn't a BD thing. Alot of people tend to think (mistakenly) that BD has more grain on their titles. While it's true that some titles on BD like Blackhawk Down have notcieable grain, it's not because of the format, it's the source itself. Some people don't know that.
I mentioned this JUST IN CASE HE WAS WONDERING THAT....

A little ready to jump down other's throats, don't YOU think...?
And just why are you posting in the "Blew Ray" forum (as you call it, see here...)

... Unless, the movies were to come out BEFORE the DVD, HD-DVD, or Blew Ray...

...anyways? At least I'm not going around calling HDdvd "HDdud"...

Be gone....!

Film grain is added in many movies; plus some of the movies are older movies, and you are not watching it any more on a 32 in CRT. Check out some review sites and you will see. I find that some people complain, just to complain!

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/reviews.html

Monster House:

"(Note: Since posting this review, we received word from Sony that while 'Monster House' is a direct digital-to-digital transfer with no intermediate film print, a "synthetic film grain" was added to the source master as a creative decision on behalf of the filmmakers.)

Sleepy Hollow:

"As I noted in my review of the HD DVD version of 'Sleepy Hollow,' the film is hardly "picture perfect" source material. It's is a very grainy image, with the majority of the film veiled by a thin veneer of jumping, alive movement. Just check out the opening credits -- the film has been so drained of color as to almost be black and white, contrast flattened, and dark areas fall off into black like a steep flick. (All that fog doesn't help, either.) It looks very moody and atmospheric, but also rather dirty and gritty. Personally, I enjoyed the retro feel, but have to admit that it does not lend itself to the kind of truly three-dimensional picture that immediately springs to mind when you think of high-def."

We are starting to get more movies shot using digital hdcams. LOTR and KK and Crank, Flyboys appear to be done that way.



Flyboys and Crank definitely.
LOTR (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120737/technical) and Kong (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0360717/technical) thankfully not.

ted

Finally watching some older Blu-ray discs that were sitting, unwatched, next to my player. The grain in the light areas is pretty bad! This doesn’t look like any codec problem (grain replication should take up more space) that I am familiar with and I doubt the films ever looked this bad in a theatre. Did the fault lie in some piss poor scanning procedure used on these early releases? It is almost as if the software handling the scanned images used dithering to compensate for poor color depth which would naturally stray from frame to frame. Has a consensus been reached as to what the problem was? If it was the scanning software/hardware I hope to god they burned it. Dark Water and Sleepy Hollow are two examples of this poor type of transfer.


I'm getting the same results and got jumped like there was no tomorrow because I mentioned that I wasn't getting it with HD-DVD. I get it a little bit but not near as bad as I do with Blu-Ray. I compared several titles and all had issues with the Blu-Ray versions compared to the HD-DVD versions. I see noise in solid colors such as long shots with the sky in the background and it looks to me like compression noise. It might be my setup but I don't really think so because games look amazing when running through my PS3. I'm going through HDMI also with the PS3 and with HD-DVD I'm using my 360 with the add on and going through the vga cable. The other night I watched Tears of the Sun and it was the first Blu-Ray that I was really impressed with but it still had the noise in several long shots. Not very bad but noticeable. I'm sure with your larger screen this would stick out like a sore thumb. Are you using the PS3?

Film grain is added in many movies; plus some of the movies are older movies, and you are not watching it any more on a 32 in CRT. Check out some review sites and you will see. I find that some people complain, just to complain!

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/reviews.html

Monster House:

"(Note: Since posting this review, we received word from Sony that while 'Monster House' is a direct digital-to-digital transfer with no intermediate film print, a "synthetic film grain" was added to the source master as a creative decision on behalf of the filmmakers.)

Sleepy Hollow:

"As I noted in my review of the HD DVD version of 'Sleepy Hollow,' the film is hardly "picture perfect" source material. It's is a very grainy image, with the majority of the film veiled by a thin veneer of jumping, alive movement. Just check out the opening credits -- the film has been so drained of color as to almost be black and white, contrast flattened, and dark areas fall off into black like a steep flick. (All that fog doesn't help, either.) It looks very moody and atmospheric, but also rather dirty and gritty. Personally, I enjoyed the retro feel, but have to admit that it does not lend itself to the kind of truly three-dimensional picture that immediately springs to mind when you think of high-def."

Is the HD-DVD camp removing this stuff? I don't see it as much with my HD-DVD material. Maybe the type of compression they use removes it somewhat?

Maybe it's just me, but I can't understand the appeal to add grain to a film. I don't think it "adds" anything to a movie. All it does is distract from the picture and story.

If you don't like grain watch animation.

Problem solved.

Maybe it's just me, but I can't understand the appeal to add grain to a film. I don't think it "adds" anything to a movie. All it does is distract from the picture and story.


That the directors decision. If they want to add grain to their art, they have the right to do so. Nobody is forcing anyone to watch it.

If you don't like grain watch animation.

Problem solved.


I get it with Monster House. Not as bad as with regular movies but I can still see it. The very first shot where the camera is looking through some leaves on a tree and the camera starts to scroll down I see the noise in the sky that is surrounding that high rise buidling crane.

Maybe it's just me, but I can't understand the appeal to add grain to a film. I don't think it "adds" anything to a movie. All it does is distract from the picture and story.

Ok... I don't mind grain much... but I can go with it distracting from the picture, but the story?!

Yes actually. VC1 does seem to remove grain compared to other codecs. Thats part of the "smoothness" that so many people talk about with VC1. Personally I don't like it at all.

Thats what I've come to believe after reading about this issue on many threads in here. I myself like the look of HD-DVD better but to each his own. Just another reason to support both formats... Choice. I will still be buying plenty of Blu-Rays though and the last one I compared there was barely a difference(The Searchers). I've read that both versions of The Searchers use the same compression(I could be wrong though) so I'm wondering if the small amount I'm still seeing has something to do with the PS3 or the HDMI input on my tv. I do get it however with both tvs that I have that have HDMI. I'm using a great quality cable so I know that's not it.

"No guru, no method, no teacher" always worked for me. But I'm converted now, Gary is the video God. And he's fast, there when needed. Seriously, read his posts, spot on, WORD.

Yes actually. VC1 does seem to remove grain compared to other codecs. Thats part of the "smoothness" that so many people talk about with VC1.

Completely and utterly false.

Yes The Searchers is exactly the same on both formats. So if you are seeing a difference its coming from the player or something else in your system. Or its in your head. :)

I see it with all my Blu-Ray stuff not just The Searchers. Makes me think it has to do with the PS3. Somebody recommended I try a component cable and see if that made a difference. I ran up to the store and got the Sony brand PS3 component cable and its still there and just as bad as when running through HDMI. This narrows it down to either the PS3 output or the actual Blu-Ray software. The only new Blu-Ray movie I have is Crank and I don't notice it with that movie. I have Flyboys and The Departed on my list forn rental at Blockbuster and will check those out when I get them but that will be taking a while because Blockbuster stinks.

I agree with Onyx, this is the only Blu-ray disc I have which is inferior to the DVD. Yes it has plenty of detail, but the face grain is on steroids and far too distracting to enjoy. Dark Water, I finished it now, improved over time. Or it wasn't so bad that I noticed it over the movie. Still, face grain is nasty and doesn't at all translate well into digital where the harshness of separated pixels is far more jarring than the diffused spread of film.

Yes I have a PS3, HDMI. Don't think that it is at fault because so many of my other discs look flawless. Face grain is bad with a lot of my early Blu-ray releases but never to the extreme of Sleepy Hollow. I was just curious as to what could be to blame for such poor quality. Just figured it was due to a ill-calibrated scanning procedure and wanted to know what you guys thought.

Those who say the grain in Sleepy Hollow is a good 'film' thing are talking out of their a**. If you saw what it was you were defending you would be a little embarrassed. Commenting on the quality of Blu-ray disc you yourself have never seen ... what is that?

I agree with Onyx, this is the only Blu-ray disc I have which is inferior to the DVD. Yes it has plenty of detail, but the face grain is on steroids and far too distracting to enjoy. Dark Water, I finished it now, improved over time. Or it wasn't so bad that I noticed it over the movie. Still, face grain is nasty and doesn't at all translate well into digital where the harshness of separated pixels is far more jarring than the diffused spread of film.

Yes I have a PS3, HDMI. Don't think that it is at fault because so many of my other discs look flawless. Face grain is bad with a lot of my early Blu-ray releases but never to the extreme of Sleepy Hollow. I was just curious as to what could be to blame for such poor quality. Just figured it was due to a ill-calibrated scanning procedure and wanted to know what you guys thought.

Those who say the grain in Sleepy Hollow is a good 'film' thing are talking out of their a**. If you saw what it was you were defending you would be a little embarrassed. Commenting on the quality of Blu-ray disc you yourself have never seen ... what is that?


I've rented this on HD-DVD and thought it looked really good. Have you seen a comparison in any review between the Blu-Ray and the HD-DVD? Have you compared the two? I will try to rent the Blu-Ray and see for myself. I think Blu-Ray is just doing sloppy work with their transfers but as usual I could be wrong.

I dont recall seeing grain in the movie theater for this movie, or any of the other blu ray movies that i currently own. Yet again the movie theaters I go to dont play anything in 1080p. As opposed to some folks who insist that the grain was in the movie at the theater they went and saw.

There was plenty of grain in Sleepy Hollow in the theater.

I see dozens of movies at theaters every year. Every movie I see in the theaters has grain. It's always been this way since I can remember. And I can remember seeing movies in the theater since the early 70's. I just notice it more from hanging out with these HT forums since 2001. For people really bothered by it they should get some type of noise reduction device. I recently purchased FLEA HDMI box but I only use it with broadcast sources. Not with BD or HD DVD.

The opening B+W scene of Casino Royale had a SH*TLOAD of grain. No doubt the looks was to be retro and gritty. Will be interesting to see how this translates...

I see it with all my Blu-Ray stuff not just The Searchers. Makes me think it has to do with the PS3. Somebody recommended I try a component cable and see if that made a difference. I ran up to the store and got the Sony brand PS3 component cable and its still there and just as bad as when running through HDMI. This narrows it down to either the PS3 output or the actual Blu-Ray software. The only new Blu-Ray movie I have is Crank and I don't notice it with that movie. I have Flyboys and The Departed on my list forn rental at Blockbuster and will check those out when I get them but that will be taking a while because Blockbuster stinks.
Have you tried to calibrate your TV settings?

www.w6rz.net has streams you can download to a USB drive and play on your PS3.

Try to download the smpte 709 color bar and set the brightness and contrast as a minimum.

Look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMPTE_color_bars and use the pluge pulse.

Have you tried to calibrate your TV settings?

Yep

Yep


I just got The Thing on HD-DVD and it has some grain. I think I just happened to have a bunch of HD-DVD material that was either new movies or restored movies so I was thinking it was a problem with Blu-Ray. I have Robin Hood, Mutiny on the Bounty and The Searchers which all look amazing on HD-DVD and this caused me to think that most HD movies should look this way. I did compare The Searchers and World Trade Center and had a bit more grain than with HD-DVD but hardly any worth talking about. The VGA hookup with my 360 is probably just covering up the grain in the HD-DVD material and my HDMI hookup with my PS3 really shows it. I watched Tears of the Sun which looked amazing except for the long shots with the sky in background which did have some digital noise in it. It also has alot to do with the restoration of the source material. All three movies I just mentioned have probably been restored. Check out the video quality description in this review of Mutiny on the Bounty from DVDtalk and you can see where my lofty expectations are coming from.

http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/read.php?ID=25180

I will be getting The Prestige next Tuesday and it has several great reviews for its video quality and I'm sure it will be excellent. I will post back here with my results.

I just got The Thing on HD-DVD and it has some grain. I think I just happened to have a bunch of HD-DVD material that was either new movies or restored movies so I was thinking it was a problem with Blu-Ray...


Ok, where's that Favelle guy?
This is the reason I wrote what I wrote on the previous page...

Ok, where's that Favelle guy?
This is the reason I wrote what I wrote on the previous page...

I did point out though that with like titles a see some digital noise in certain scenes with Blu-Ray. I don't think I'm talking about the same thing as grain which I see with The Thing and multiple Blu-Rays that I have. I don't mind the grain but the digital noise bugs me a little bit. I didn't notice any in Crank and I will see how The Prestige turns out and post here one way or the other. I did see Sleepy Hollow on HD-DVD and thought that it was impressive so I'm interested to rent it on Blu-Ray to compare.

Do you have any Sharpness settings on your display turned up?

Do you have any Sharpness settings on your display turned up?

1-7, I have mine set at 3. Just got done watching Resident Evil and it looked great with none of the digital noise I notice in other Blu-Rays. So now I have Crank and Resident Evil with no digital noise noticed but others such as Tears of the Sun which looked amazing but did have some digital noise in long shots with sky in the background. I think I started off with some titles that didn't really show off Blu-Ray very well and this left me with a bad first impression.