Hello, My names carmine, Im watching on Chicago Comcast and i have noticed when i watch CBS Shows (I.E. CSI miami, The Unit) The Surround sound is absoulty incredable and when i watch shows on other nets (I.E. 24, Heroes, Lost)
It doenst come out nearly as good...Any reason for this?

Anything i can do to get all the channels to be like CBS?

Some people just "get it" and others don't.

CBS evidently gets it. :D

Anything i can do to get all the channels to be like CBS?
I bet CBS would love to use that quote.

I totally agree with the OP that CBS has the best DD5.1 audio. I usually have to raise the volume on my receiver when I watch 24 or Lost.

It's kinda tough to quantify, because there are a few hoops to jump through from the tape or server the show is played back on, to getting to your home. This also doesn't take into account how the individual shows are mixed. Most everyone approaches their surround output in a reasonably similar fashion, and I have personally not noticed a huge difference between networks universally (i've heard shows sound fabulous on all four networks), though certainly this doesn't preclude your local station manipulating the signal some kind of way. In my own local I've noticed the feed tends to be hotter than the others, but I've seen just the opposite in other places. It's just very hard to make a blanket statement that CBS' 5.1 is dramatically better than everyone elses without a true basis of comparison. There's a lot of moving parts to consider.

I totally agree with the OP that CBS has the best DD5.1 audio. I usually have to raise the volume on my receiver when I watch 24 or Lost.

Are in Chicago too? If so, Maybe it has something to do with our local nets? Because i have to do EXACTLY the same thing. When watching CBS I have receiver volume at about 25-30 and i still hear everything perfectly. On FOX, ABC, NBC i have to raise to about 40 and DD 5.1 still isnt nearly as good as CBS.

I'm near Miami. CBS has the best audio when it comes to NFL games. I always raise the volume for FOX and NBC games.

CBS is just louder.

The Unit has the best 5.1 mix of any broadcast program.
They consistently put all 6 speakers to good use, field episodes with bullets firing is just great, homefront episodes not so much.

I'm not just saying that because CBS pays the bills either.

The opening montage of the Jericho clip show tonight had a very good 6 speaker mix as well.


Jerry

CBS Is just plain (too) LOUD... I often have to quickly hit mute to then lower the receiver's volume when I change to CBS like when a commercial pops up on any other DD station/program... which is SUPER annoying... i wish all stations could broadcast at a consistent volume level, it'd make the whole experience better.

Loudness: CBS is louder than all the other Big 4 nets. CBS should either lower the volume, or the other three nets should raise theirs. I'll leave it to you to figure out which one is easier to accomplish.

On a side note, all the nets tend to have 2-channel stereo mode louder than 5.1 mode, for whatever reason. Of course that should be fixed in time.

Surround effects: Most shows on ALL nets don't use the rear surrounds enough. Numb3rs has good surround at very occasional intervals, but most of the time, I have to put my head to the rear speaker to hear anything.

The best examples of rear surround I've heard are from Dancing With the Stars on ABC, and almost every FOX football game. I don't know about NBC, because my local affil. (WRC) has its rear surrounds out on the OTA feed, for whatever reason.

The Unit has the best 5.1 mix of any broadcast program.
They consistently put all 6 speakers to good use, field episodes with bullets firing is just great, homefront episodes not so much.

I'm not just saying that because CBS pays the bills either.

The opening montage of the Jericho clip show tonight had a very good 6 speaker mix as well.


Jerry


CBS Numb3rs also has an excellent 5.1 soundtrack. The family frequently jumps out of their seats when the surrounds kick in, especially during a gun battle or an explosion.

Have a hunch this is more dependant on the local stations than the networks themselves. Where I'm at, 24's soundtrack blows away all the others. Admittedly I have to turn it up louder than The Unit, but 24's bullets don't just fly from speaker to speaker.... they literally fly around the room. Likewise the musical cues on 24 don't just emanate from the speakers... individual instruments can be placed with little effort. No other show, not even other shows on the same Fox station, can accomplish this in the St. Louis area.

Yes there is a REAL DIFFERENCE between CBS and the other networks when it comes to DTV audio. Bottom line - CBS does not like or use the Dolby system in doing DTV audio. Without getting technical, or even politically correct for that matter, CBS thinks the dolby "system" is too complicated, too inhibiting, and too unruly to use so they are basically not "following the heard" with the other major networks regarding audio. I personally think they are right and that CBS's DTV audio is BETTER than the audio coming from the other 3 major broadcast networks.

Long story short - the folks at Dobly need to "get their act together" so that audio at the other three major networks gets done the right way. The way that CBS is doing it now!!!!!

CBS is just louder.
Louder = Better???

CBS's actual audio is not louder, but their AC3 dialnorm metadata sets the receiver's DD decoder to the least amount of level attenuation, which is none. Fox uses 6db attenuation, NBC uses 9db and ABC stations set the attenuation themselves. The default level attentuation for DD is 4db. If one can disable the receiver's DD attenuator (most don't have this option), the volume differences between the networks is much less.

Why use any attenuation? An explanation of dialnorm can be found here (http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/Inside-Audio/f_dm_inside_audio-12.10.03.shtml). CBS uses a constant -31db, Fox uses -25db and NBC uses -22db. There are plans at NBC to change the dialnorm on a program basis, but then again they haven't had the 2.0/5.1 control working in quite some time.

CBS stations who want to use the 2.0/5.1 mode switching but don't want to sound louder than everyone else can set their DP569's Metadata Control Override Params to replace CBS network's dialnorm and/or compression profile parameter with the internal metadata setting(s).

Bottom line - CBS does not like or use the Dolby system in doing DTV audio. !!

Please explain how you make this claim... Dolby is "the" standard for ATSC and digital cable. And CBS delivers their audio to affiliates via Dolby E..

Wow, thanks for that info and the link. Very informative.

Please explain how you make this claim... Dolby is "the" standard for ATSC and digital cable. And CBS delivers their audio to affiliates via Dolby E..
CBS uses Dolby Digital on their DTV stations, per the ATSC and FCC standard. CBS has a "better idea" about how to set their audio levels and metadata, and this is inconsistent with the ATSC and FCC standard. In short, CBS is incorrect but they feel their way is "better."

. In short, CBS is incorrect but they feel their way is "better."

Having listened to CBS OTA and via the distribution feed, I don't think they're any better or worse than anyone else. And, as I'm sure you know, each network thinks their way is "better". FOX has the best chance at "national" consistency due to the splicer, but even their dialnorm doesn't always track the program.

Having listened to CBS OTA and via the distribution feed, I don't think they're any better or worse than anyone else. And, as I'm sure you know, each network thinks their way is "better". FOX has the best chance at "national" consistency due to the splicer, but even their dialnorm doesn't always track the program.
There really is a "right" way to do it. That is when the measured dialog loudness (on something like a Dolby LM100) matches the dialnorm parameter in the audio bitstream. It doesn't matter what the actual number is, just that the dialnorm parameter matches what the audio measurement is. The DD audio system will take it from there.

Problem is no OTA network and probably little if any cable channels are using dialnorm correctly. Stations have the final say so on transmitted levels and dialnorm. I still think it would be better if everyone used the same value until per program dialnorm becomes common practice. Since -27db is the default, and many stations already run it, that would be fine. There's no need to take the issue of level differences between program elements and make it worse by adding differences between channels. The 9db difference between NBC and CBS is ridiculous. Even worse on my local NBC station the local encoder is set to -27db and already loud local spots blast during network shows. The CBS and NBC O&Os may have their hands tied, but the rest could override the network dialnorm until the network's actually matches the programs.

There really is a "right" way to do it. That is when the measured dialog loudness (on something like a Dolby LM100) matches the dialnorm parameter in the audio bitstream. It doesn't matter what the actual number is, just that the dialnorm parameter matches what the audio measurement is. The DD audio system will take it from there.

Yes. Aware of all that. I can take measurements with my LM100 regularly and tell it's wrong. Question is why none of the networks can do that on a consistent basis.

Big problem is there is no standard way of embedding dialnorm into program material from production to broadcast, including the commercials.

The CBS and NBC O&Os may have their hands tied, but the rest could override the network dialnorm until the network's actually matches the programs.

Except those of us who have FOX stations, and we can't change their values due to splicing. I can match my local setting to the networks, but that has been a moving target.

Fox at least runs somewhere in the middle. NBC and CBS are the bookends.

Yea, and FOX has gotten better of late.

There really is a "right" way to do it. That is when the measured dialog loudness (on something like a Dolby LM100) matches the dialnorm parameter in the audio bitstream. It doesn't matter what the actual number is, just that the dialnorm parameter matches what the audio measurement is. The DD audio system will take it from there.

Yep, ya beat me too it hphase. It's funny how many networks still don't even know how to properly adjust their dialnorm levels. Ever flip through the channels while looking at the levels on the LM100? Flip to CourtTV to get a laugh on that one!

:cool:

Big problem is there is no standard way of embedding dialnorm into program material from production to broadcast, including the commercials.

No "standard" yet but the closest thing to it is networks following the -27 or -31 dialnorm metadata stamp and actually following it.

As for commercials, there is a way to embed a dialnorm stamp into them. We've been doing it for almost two years now. ;) It's just up to the networks to follow the Dolby guidelines when setting their dialnorm stamp.

:cool:

Yes. Aware of all that. I can take measurements with my LM100 regularly and tell it's wrong. Question is why none of the networks can do that on a consistent basis.
If there was enough quality control to maintain consistent audio levels from program to program, and program to commercials, dialnorm would be a non-issue. Unfortunately, the uniform-audio-level ship sailed long ago (along with the laid-off crew.)

Duplicating the NTSC audio processing system on the DTV channel would be like having a new car with only an AM radio. Simple, yes, but...

Yep, ya beat me too it hphase. It's funny how many networks still don't even know how to properly adjust their dialnorm levels. Ever flip through the channels while looking at the levels on the LM100? Flip to CourtTV to get a laugh on that one!

:cool:
The cable folks do a lot more DD encoding than you might suspect. With digital simulcasting on analog channels, they have to encode 50-100 channels of MPEG-2 with DD audio, and they hate to have the phone ring with loudness complaints, too. Word is spreading about how to set dialnorm on their channels. It may not have reached your cable system yet. Plus, they're still at the mercy of program-to-program variations within a channel. They have 50-100 times the problems of a broadcast station, but they are getting with the program to address it.

Duplicating the NTSC audio processing system on the DTV channel would be like having a new car with only an AM radio. Simple, yes, but...

If the networks can't, or more aptly, won't fix these problems, that's what it will come to in the end. Can you imagine the complaints on audio we'd all get if we turned analog off today?

You'd then see more use of processors like the Octimax:

http://www.linearacoustic.com/octimax.htm

Which MNFMixer found out can royally mess up the mix if improperly applied.

Which MNFMixer found out can royally mess up the mix if improperly applied.
Soap and water is always better than lipstick.

No "standard" yet but the closest thing to it is networks following the -27 or -31 dialnorm metadata stamp and actually following it.

As for commercials, there is a way to embed a dialnorm stamp into them. We've been doing it for almost two years now. ;) It's just up to the networks to follow the Dolby guidelines when setting their dialnorm stamp.

:cool:Networks will typically send the audio as delivered, As for embedding dialnorm in commercials, which way is that?

So does all this mean that I’m NOT crazy when I think my local CBS has the dialog WAY too low?

Being an AVS member does mean your sanity is in question.

So does all this mean that I’m NOT crazy when I think my local CBS has the dialog WAY too low?

No sir, it does not. It just means you aren't alone... :)

News 9 here in OKC only has 2.0 `DD' in HD...ridiculous when u consider they have a massive weather budget as well as a NEW HD chopper (first in the country)

Networks will typically send the audio as delivered, As for embedding dialnorm in commercials, which way is that?

Locally inserted commercials, I can speak for. A part of our "transcode" process involves embedding the dialnorm stamp into the metadata.

:cool:

Metadata can be carried as ancillary data in a transport stream, or embedded as Vanc metadata or part of Dolby E audio tracks. Unfortunately none of these approaches are standard methods to carry the AC3 metadata from production to air. NBC requires Dolby E tracks for delivery with proper metadata, but last I checked it's always -22db from my local O&O during network programming.

Not quite sure what you mean by "standard," but all of the methods you described are used to carry audio metadata from production to air. Some networks use a combination of these methods.

There are standards for carrying data in V-ANC, and Dolby E carries metadata as part of its specification. Auxilliary data channels in MPEG streams are allowed (and used) but are technically part of the MPEG standard, as far as I know.

It would be nice if networks agreed on how to handle audio metadata, but they don't even agree on what video format to use. Most network delivery methods are unique, and might be considered proprietary. This is probably done because each network feels their way is best, not because they want to keep things secret.

It might be helpful to know that all of the networks that do HD/5.1 use Dolby E to get the multichannel audio from the remote site back to the network control center. After that, it's every network for themselves. Of course, all of the stations use Dolby Digital to get audio to the home. It's what in between that is so varied.

"So does all this mean that I’m NOT crazy when I think my local CBS has the dialog WAY too low?"

No.

It just means your speakers are too small. You need to listen on a full sized, professional, $250K system.....like they do when they mix the show :rolleyes: .

Actually, from what I've measured (using the Dolby DM100, in addition to the LM100), CBS is not sending any Dynamic Range Control profiles. So, there is nothing in their DD to adjust for "midnight mode" or "RF Mode". Everything is sent at full dynamic range, and the only option the viewer has, is to "ride levels" with their remote, or (like I do) watch with the sound muted, using CC to read the dialogue.

The stations can add their own override to the Dynamic Range Control.

It can be understandable why someone would want to be louder, but why would anyone want to be softer? I think overriding the -22db from NBC would be even more desirable, especially on a soft show like Studio 60.

CBS and NBC stations - revolt against the networks. Take the metadata issue into your own hands and override the the dialnorm and (for CBS) the DRC. Show them that you're mad as hell and not going to take it any more :D

Not quite sure what you mean by "standard," but all of the methods you described are used to carry audio metadata from production to air. Some networks use a combination of these methods.I mean an agreed upon method to deliver metadata. NBC takes Dolby E tracks on their tapes, but everyone else takes discreet tracks. CBS uses VANC metadata on tape, but it's added after delivery. AFIAK ABC has no method of metadata delivery.

Part of the problem is upconverted SD, for which there is even less metadata support. Even if there were metadata supplied on commercials, are the ad agencies to be trusted to make it correct? Dolby's solution looks promising, but it's in it's infancy.

I actually think the surround experience on ABC is quite good. Men in Tress and Ugly Betty both make great use of the surrounds for enveloping music cues.

I gotta agree with some posts in here. Shows like 24 on Fox are ridiculously low. Just to hear them talking I gotta juice up the sound and then when commercial hits I have to lower it all over again.

Unrelated posts deleted.

The best examples of rear surround I've heard are from Dancing With the Stars on ABC, and almost every FOX football game.

I don't watch DWTS, but Fox football (NFL at least) has the best surround sound of any television (not theatrical movies on TV) that I have noticed. I love hearing a distinctive voice or horn behind my left or right shoulder during the game. I wonder where they place their rear surround microphones--in front of the upper deck?