St. Louis, MO - HDTV *OLD* [Text View] - Page 12

DroptheRemote

08-24-04, 10:44 AM

I appreciate that this is somewhat off-topic, but I know there's a number of regulars here with Home Theater PCs and others considering the purchase of HTPCs in future.

As a result, I thought this might be of some interest:

___________________________________

Imaging Science Research Labs
Offers A/V Quality Certification
for Microsoft Windows Media Center Edition

* Through close collaboration with Microsoft, ISF opens Imaging Science Research Labs to certify Windows XP Media Center PC hardware for A/V quality. ISF’s new lab is based at Microsoft Studios

* New Media Center PCs include a free ISF designed “Calibration Wizard”

Boca Raton, FL, July 22, 2004 – Imaging Science Research Labs, Inc. (ISF RL) is developing specifications for certifying hardware video quality for Windows XP Media Center Edition PCs.

Since 1994, the industry’s leading high-end video consumer products have obtained ISF certification for “High Fidelity Video”. Manufacturers of certified products include Da-Lite, Key Digital, Krell, Monster Cable, Philips, Pioneer Elite, Runco, Sencore, Screen Research, and Stewart Filmscreen. Now, ISF RL intends to extend this certification program to Windows XP Media Center hardware that is competitive with the best current consumer electronics products.

Windows XP Media Center Edition is designed to deliver entertainment like TV playback and recording, DVD, digital photos, and music through a user friendly on screen menu. Off the shelf PC components are not optimized to deliver such experiences and are usually designed for business productivity or gaming applications. Buyers of Windows XP Media Center Editions PCs are already demanding systems optimized for high quality video and will want to know how to identify the best systems.

ISF RL certification will guide consumers to the very best hardware for their home’s Windows XP Media Center based entertainment systems. These products must be designed for artifact free film and sports viewing, superb color fidelity, quiet operation and other home entertainment based quality parameters.

ISF RL’s first objective will be to determine the metrics and specifications that define the best video performance available for consumers. Hardware and systems that can meet or exceed these criteria will be eligible for ISF RL certification so consumers can identify them as best of class video products. ISF RL services include detailed measurement of video processing for TV, DVD, and Windows Media HD content to ensure it meets the most demanding consumer expectations.

Guy Kuo, already well respected in high end consumer video for his AVIA, AVIA Pro and Home Theater Tune Up DVDs, will be ISF RL’s lab director. Both Guy Kuo and Joel Silver have spoken on video quality at Microsoft’s WinHEC hardware developers conferences.

ISF RL’s research of DVD playback performance will also launch a certification program for DVD players in consumer electronics. The players that represent the reference quality to be applied to Windows XP Media Center hardware will be offered ISF RL certification.

“With Windows XP Media Center Edition, Microsoft is working to deliver the best possible experience for consumers who want entertainment and productivity from a single device,” said Joe Belfiore, General Manager for Windows Media Center at Microsoft, “We are pleased to have ISF RL setting the benchmark for great video so customers can easily identify the best values in Media Center Edition PCs.”

Every Windows XP Media Center Edition PC now includes a remarkably user friendly ISF designed “Calibration Wizard” that breaks new ground in helping consumers get better pictures.

“The present convergence between the PC world and home electronics is actually best described as collision. We believe that there is awesome potential for Media Center operating systems, high quality DVD playback, HDTV recording capability and HD gaming in home theaters. We have found that PC hardware is holding back the software. The huge gap in performance, touch and feel, and build quality between the best consumer electronics products and the best PC products need not continue. We hope, in some small way, to contribute to the future evolution of user friendly high-end multimedia solutions for digital entertainment in our homes.” says Joel Silver, ISF RL President.

About ISF
ISF is in the Display Standards industry, and since 1994 has been dedicated to improving the quality of consumer digital imaging. ISF has four roles in the consumer electronics industry and now the PC industry, which include consulting on product development, dealer calibration service certification training, editorial contributions and fact checking, and ISF licensing for video quality. They are the co-inventor of the Windows XP Media Center Edition Calibration Wizard. Joel Silver is the founder of the ISF. Contact info: - joel@imagingscience.com 561.997.9073

About Microsoft
Founded in 1975, Microsoft (Nasdaq "MSFT") is the worldwide leader in software, services and solutions that help people and businesses realize their full potential. Microsoft, Windows and Windows Media are either registered trademarks or trademarks of Microsoft Corp. in the United States and/or other countries.
___________________________________

davesalaman

08-24-04, 02:43 PM

Ever since I bought my new Samsung dyna flat crt last month I've been struggling with this jerky motion problem with some ABC programming.

Any of the regular series broadcast in HD, such as Drew Carey, 8 simple rules, and According to Jim, have a jerky motion where the picture seems to freeze, then move ahead at twice normal speed as if to 'catch up'. There is also quite a bit of flashing. Most commercials are fine and all SD upconverts are fine.

Now here's the interesting part ... and I waited until the second broadcast just in case the first one was a fluke. Monday Night Football displays perfectly.

So, what could the difference be between the network shows and MNF. Are they different frame rates ? Are the series recorded at 24fps ? The native resolution of my display is 1080i so the set must upconvert. The set is speced as having 3:2 pulldown as well but I cannot determine if it is actually active as there are no controls for it. I also cannot tell which of the ATSC formats I am receiving at any given time (I am only told SD ot HD) so I don't know if KDNL is changing ATSC frame rates (but I doubt they would). I'm assuming they are sending 720P60.

Any ideas ?

abcward

08-24-04, 03:08 PM

so, i called Charter today because of the 'magical date' about PVR units. They again gave me the whole "we'll put you on our list and will begin installs next week".

I told the CSR that I was already on the list and could he verify that I was on this holy list. He fumbled around and instead replied: "well how about we add you again just to make sure".

Does anyone actually think that if you are told you are on a list, that they will actually be proactive and call you once the PVRs are in? I cry bulls**t.

DroptheRemote

08-24-04, 03:34 PM

Bruce,

This reminds me of one of my favorite Seinfeld bits, where he makes a reservation for a rental car but when he shows up at the counter he's told he's out of luck.

JERRY: I don't understand, I made a reservation, do you have my reservation?

RENTAL CAR AGENT: Yes, we do, unfortunately we ran out of cars.

JERRY: But the reservation keeps the car here. That's why you have the reservation.

RENTAL CAR AGENT: I know why we have reservations.

JERRY: I don't think you do. If you did, I'd have a car. See, you know how to take the reservation, you just don't know how to *hold* the reservation and that's really the most important part of the reservation, the holding. Anybody can just take them.

Hopefully, you get at least one MOXI, if not two...

wilkemp

08-24-04, 03:42 PM

Classic episode of Seinfeld, but aren't they all. When I called this morning the CSR said we are just taking names for the list and I would be contacted when they are ready to install which she heard was sometime in September. I'll just rely on "4113's" info and hope that means Sept 16th.

abcward

08-24-04, 04:05 PM

Doug, you do know that Seinfeld dvd's are due out soon, right?

DroptheRemote

08-24-04, 04:21 PM

I did see that the Seinfeld DVDs are coming out, but it's sort of hard to imagine why anyone would be buying them when the series has been in syndication so long. But I do love the show.

It's almost like a latter-day 3 Stooges, where I've seen every Seinfeld at least a dozen times. For a while there, I even kept "The Contest" in my Replay queue for several months -- a great standby when I needed a laugh or two to get through the day...

abcward

08-24-04, 04:35 PM

Happy Festivus Everyone!!

dweebe

08-24-04, 04:40 PM

I asked this over at the HDTV Programming Forum in it's own thread, but thought I might post it here in case someone from KTVI is lurking:

Does anyone know if this Friday's (8/27) Redskins vs. Rams pre-season game on Fox be like last weeks game: shot and produced in 720p but sent out nationally at 480p?

(not trying to open can of worms) Will there be any chance of a 720p dry run nationally before regular season opening weekend with this game? What about Hi-Def 720p in St. Louis since the game will be played here and KTVI is a Fox O&O station? (kinda like what happened in Houston with the baseball All-Star game)

jedi35

08-24-04, 05:25 PM

Well, I checked out the Rams game in HD last night. While the Rams didn't play well, the game sure played well through my Voom receiver and my pj. It looked great!!!

tcfila

08-24-04, 06:20 PM

Doug,
You made my day, that is one of the best episodes.

Tim

DroptheRemote

08-24-04, 06:41 PM

Not sure if this is something that Charter offers, but as they are an early mover on VOD, I'm passing it along.

Also, anything pertaining to the NFL usually finds an audience somewhere along the line. Not sure if there's an HD angle here, but sooner or later there should be...

The following is from the MarketClose news service from mediabiz.com:

MarketClose - August 24, 2004

TOP STORY: TVN said it will be the primary provider of a wide range of VOD services for NFL Network, including TVNow's rapid turnaround distribution to VOD enabled cable systems throughout the United States. Under terms of the deal, NFL Network will utilize TVN's technology to deliver content, including extended highlights of NFL games.

redwine

08-24-04, 07:55 PM

I didn't receive any Charter bill this month. Lost in the mail?

Another acquaintance of mine was laid-off from Charter. When will it end?

GlendaleHDTV

08-25-04, 11:38 AM

I noted (with dismay) that the Moxi box does not currently have an override for 4:3 content, meaning that if you have the moxi box set to output 1080i or 720p, it will automatically stretch any 480i content, instead of leaving it OAR. According to moxiguy, you have to go in to the setup menu and manually change the output setting to 480i anytime you want 4:3 content to show up in its original 4:3 aspect ratio. This is supposed to be fixed in an upcoming software release, but I'm trying to figure out how much of a pain this is going to be once I get the box.

Am I correct in stating that 4:3 programming that is shown on any of the network HD channels (i.e. Charter channel 785 for NBC-HD) is being upconverted to 1080i? For instance, when I'm watching channel 5 news on the NBC-HD channel, there are black bars on each side. The moxi box isn't going to see this as 480i content and try and stretch it out, is it?

--Tyler

MoxiGuy

08-25-04, 11:51 AM

If the HD signal includes pillars, Moxi won't try to stretch the 4:3 signal in the middle. I've noticed, however, that in some cases the originating station upconverts SD programs with a stretch. In those cases Moxi won't squash it back to 4:3.

BTW: I don't think there are any stupid questions about HD. With all the officially sanctioned combinations of aspect ratio, resolution, audio encoding, it's one of the most confusing "standards" that's ever been released on the consumer market.

DroptheRemote

08-25-04, 11:55 AM

Tyler,

KSDK is actually sending the 4:3 material as upconverted 1080i. The black bars that appear in your picture when watching KSDK-DT are actually part of the signal sent from KSDK -- in effect, they are sending a 16x9 picture with the 4x3 material centered horizontally.

As a result, there won't be any stretching of the picture by the MOXI box.

kwatkins

08-25-04, 01:00 PM

I have seen some disturbing messages about a loss in PQ with SD when using the Moxi. If this is true, it may be a deal breaker for me. Is this true?

Kirk

BudShark

08-25-04, 01:26 PM

Yes it is true. Basically any conversion of analog video to a digital mpeg compression has a loss.
The only way the DVRs work is by creating MPEG digital streams. This loss is well documented on Tivos, ReplayTVs (connected to cable lines), and now the cable company provided DVRs.

The problem is not too bad on the 27-32" analog TVs of last year. But you connect one of these things to a 57" widescreen and its glaringly bad. It is NOT a MOXI problem, it is an analog to digital conversion problem. When the cable companies go all digital you won't have this problem.

BTW: You see this problem on the MOXI all the time because it buffers and then displays (converts to MPEG and writes a stream to the hard drive). This gives you seamless recording/pausing. Some of the other boxes have started to NOT do the buffer then display. They display live and buffer in the background. While this will make your live material look as good as it does now - it has two bad sides. 1) The recorded material still looks like crap and 2) The pause/rewind is not seemless - there is a 1-2 second delay to pause/rewind and catching up to 'realtime' is very much an issue. Basically once you pause, you stay in the 'low quality' buffered mode. MOXI is not doing this now - and I'm not sure I would want them to. Charter is going to all digital networks (they are doing it in Long Beach, CA right now) - that is the solution.

Chris

jedi35

08-25-04, 01:36 PM

Doug,

Thanks for that piece about ISF certified pcs. I've always read that the best home theater pictures come from ht pcs. I tried once to hook up my pc dvd player to my rptv, and didn't get great results. There were quite a few artifacts in the picture, and I didn't take the time to get it right. I would certainly consider one of these computers as a future purchase, especially since I'm still using an old PIII 500 MHz pc.

GlendaleHDTV

08-25-04, 01:53 PM

Moxiguy,

First off, let me say how much we appreciate your presence on these boards. It's great to be able to get first hand information. From reading the posts on the various threads regarding Moxi, the biggest issues I see are:

1. Need to be able to add storage through the USB 2.0 port.
2. Moving through the menu is slow/sluggish.
3. 480i content is automatically stretched.
4. SD picture quality.
5. DVI port not enabled

There are others, but these issues were the ones that were the most important to me.

Summarizing some of your responses in other threads or other information on the MOXI website:

1. Storage add-on will be with the BMC-9022 , set for later this year, early next year.
2. Menu performance improves noticeably with next two releases, improves dramatically in the release after that.
3. 480i passthrough fix coming in the next couple of months.
4. It is thought that changing the way 480i is passed through will improve SD picture quality.
5. DVI will hopefully be enabled by the end of the year or early next year.

Do I have this right, and do you have a better idea as to the release dates? I noted that there is an upgrade being tested right now that will filter HD content in the menu. Will this particular release address any of these other issues?

--Tyler

Crash_Corrigan

08-25-04, 02:38 PM

Directv's HDTivo and their SDTivo record the digital signal straight from the satellite with no loss since there's no analog to digital conversion prior to recording to the harddrive. The analog to digital conversion is only a factor on the standalone Tivos.

On my 43-inch HD RPTV SD channels look just fine on my Directv SDTivo and on my HDTivo (although I normally only record or watch HD material on my HDTivo to conserve it's recording space...at least until the warranty expires and I can comfortably crack the case and add a big honking harddive).

duihlein

08-25-04, 03:25 PM

Originally posted by BudShark
Charter is going to all digital networks (they are doing it in Long Beach, CA right now) - that is the solution.

Chris [/B]

Are you saying they are duplicating their analog channels on digital or that they are eliminating analog altogether?

If it's the latter it would clear up a Lot of bandwidth that I consider wasted (I cannot watch analog Charter even on a 27" TV)

Dave

MoxiGuy

08-25-04, 04:41 PM

GlendaleHDTV,

You pretty much have it right. One clarification on your first item:
Storage add-on will be with the BMC-9022 , set for later this year, early next year.

a) BMC9022 comes with a larger internal HDD (160g).
b) Adding on external storage with USB is a separate project and I don't have a target date for that.

As for dates, I'm deliberately keeping them vague because all releases go through a few layers of testing and validation before your cable company will push them to you and we need a little cushion for potential bug fixes. When the dates solidify, I'll post.

Oh, and thanks for the kind words. We here also appreciate everyone's interest in the product and we look at all the posts on viewer experience, feature requests, etc. It's very helpful to us. So, keep posting.

wschwart

08-26-04, 12:26 PM

I'm suprised that nobody metioned that KSDK digital went off the air last night.
I also noticed something weird about channel 9. I tuned in 9.1 and got a 'station not received' message. Hitting the channel button to see if 9.2 was active I got the actual 9.1. This also happened for 9.2 and 9.3. I've never seen this before. I got what I wanted, but it was weird.

DroptheRemote

08-26-04, 01:02 PM

Walt,

FWIW, I had exactly the same experience last night with both KSDK-DT and KETC-DT.

Toeside

08-26-04, 01:04 PM

Originally posted by DroptheRemote
Walt,

FWIW, I had exactly the same experience last night with both KSDK-DT and KETC-DT.

Yep, 5-1 was gone for me as well. Caught the Olympics on DirecTV ch 84 instead. I just figured it was storm related and would work itself out.

Are the channels back to normal now?

Craig

DroptheRemote

08-26-04, 01:19 PM

Dave,

It seems the Charter preference is to completely eliminate analog channels, which means eliminating analog service, forcing everyone to upgrade to digital.

Obviously there are logistics (lots of equipment required), costs (higher operating costs for those customers) and churn concern (some percentage of customers will resent a forced upgrade no matter how it's presented/sugar-coated).

Maybe Charter will consider duplicating the analogs at some point, but that's not the route they chose in LB. I think the problem with duplication is the waste. I've read in several places recently that many cable companies are again scrambling for bandwidth. No idea if this applies to Charter.

comp1040

08-26-04, 01:20 PM

After the Baseball Game Noticed that both KSDK's digital station were
out on Charter. During the Baseball game there were quite a few blackouts and other problems with the broadcast during the storm.
The stations were back on this morning on Charter and also OTA.

Ron

comp1040

08-26-04, 01:31 PM

If Charter goes all digital it will take away one of its only advantages.
A cable box would be required for all TV's in the house and eliminate the
ease of recording to VHS, DVD and TIVO. They are already loosing customers to satellite at a fast rate this would just add to the flight.

Duplicating all the analog channels with digital sounds dumb but until
I have more ways to record digital signals myself I hope they keep the analog channels. I do not watch a lot of live broadcasts but record constantly.

Ron

duihlein

08-26-04, 02:13 PM

I believe Charter is among those Cable companies scrambling for bandwidth and mounting current analog channels on the digital spectrum would free up lots of bandwidth, I also understand there is a big benifit to many current customer to having those analog channels (multiple TV's with no STB).

I was thinking perhaps as a solution they could do the following:

Send all channels from the head end to the house on the digital spectrum. Install a box at the point of entry into the house that would take approx 15-25 channels (however many are currently being provided by analog basic) and make them available via standard RG6 cable with analog modulation. This would basically broadcast the analog channels to all TV's inside the house.

It would probably be an expensive piece of vaporware, but it's the only idea I could come up with that would satisfy the need for bandwidth while retaining current customer functionality for basic cable.

Dave

comp1040

08-26-04, 03:24 PM

With all that Charter is trying to be on one little wire it would seem like they
may be bitting off more than they can chew.

Music channels, broadband, telephone, vod, hd, analog, digital, those interactive channels that I can't get on the HD box, and payperview.

One stop shopping OK but we don't want it to be Walmart. Specialization is out of style.

Ron

Technowood

08-26-04, 03:59 PM

Hello everyone!

I have been ghosting this forum for the last couple of days and feel like I have found my kindred spirits. I hope my introduction is not too far off topic, but I will try to say enough that is relevant to avoid flames.

First, a little about my current setup:
I am using a Charter HD STB with a component connection to a 57” Gateway Plasma HDTV and an S-Video connection to a Microsoft Windows XP Media Center Edition 2004 HTPC with a DVI connection to the plasma. I run optical connections from both the PC and the STB to my Kenwood 5.1 Pro Logic surround system.

My feedback and opinions:
Up until today, I was very unhappy with the Charter HD service. I live in University City and have never been able to watch a HD channel without getting pauses, missing frames and missing sound segments during the 10 months that I have had the STB. I had just basically accepted it as growing pains for a bleeding edge technology and suffered. After reading all the posts in this forum, I decided I had suffered long enough and today I went home at lunchtime to call charter and have them deal with the problem. Oddly enough, when I arrived home and turned on the set, the problem that I had been suffering with all this time was gone! I am puzzled. Anyway, if it stays like it is, I will be happy until I can get my hands on one of the new MOXI boxes. I am chomping at the bit for one of those.

I used to have Directv and Tivo, and if I did not live in an apartment that does not allow dishes at this time, I would have a Directv HD Tivo box with a HD OTA antenna for sure. But since that is not an option, I am betting the farm on the MOXI box.

I was pretty excited about MS XP MCE 2004 when it came out and was an early adopter. The thought of being able to play Battlefield Vietnam on my 57” Plasma while getting rid of my DVD player and my stand-alone Tivo box appealed to me greatly. But I have to say I am disappointed. It is incapable of doing anything with HD. The quality of SD recordings and viewing is terrible (hence my component bypass). DVD playback with any software, third party or otherwise, is terrible compared to my old DVD player. Getting the IR blaster to reliably change the channel on the STB is as much a gamble as anything Vegas has to offer. I have never found a keyboard/mouse/remote setup that has been to my liking and of course, there are all the other issues that come with Windows XP. In short, once again, I have high hopes for the MOXI box.

Well anyway, its really great to meet you all and I look forward to our future interactions and learning a great deal.

Yours truly,
Matt (technowood)

tcfila

08-26-04, 05:24 PM

Originally posted by Technowood

I used to have Directv and Tivo, and if I did not live in an apartment that does not allow dishes at this time, I would have a Directv HD Tivo box with a HD OTA antenna for sure. But since that is not an option, I am betting the farm on the MOXI box.

Matt,
I don't think they can bar you from having a dish.
This is copied from one of Doug's post earlier in the month

Tim

Your Right to Erect an Antenna and/or Satellite Dish

As more and more consumers purchase high-definition displays, there's increasing interest in arranging for receipt of HD programming via an over-the-air antenna or through a satellite dish.

Unfortunately with the proliferation of cable television in the 1980s and 1990s, many communities, property developers and homeowner/condo owner associations tried to undo the visual blight of antennas (and later, satellite dishes) from their local skylines. While these laws, rules or convenants were well-intended -- after all, it would be difficult to argue for the cosmetic benefits of a yagi antenna -- these actions are not legally enforceable.

The FCC has ruled -- with only a few very narrow exceptions -- that you have the right to receive over-the-air television and radio broadcasts and as a result you have a right to erect an antenna to receive these signals. This ruling also encompasses the erection of small satellite dishes.

Even if you have previously signed a lease or homeower association convenant that requires you to forego the right to erect an antenna or satellite dishes, the FCC has ruled that these types of provisions are unenforceable.

In general, there are only a few notable exceptions to this rule:

* First, the location of the antenna or dish must be an "exclusive use" area. As a homeowner or condominium owner, this would mean any part of the property over which you have control. For renters, this would also apply to balconies or patios that are intended solely for your use. The sort of rental property area that would not be covered would be general use areas, such as common passageways or rooftop areas that are clearly intended for the shared use of all residents.

* Second, the antenna or dish cannot be erected in areas that would create a legitimate safety issue, for example one that is dangling off a balcony or placed too close to electrical wiring.

* Third, there may be restrictions if you are located in a designated historical (or prehistorical) district, in which case a permit may be required.

The other major limitation is that these devices cannot exceed 1 meter (39.37 inches) in diameter.

The burden of proof in contesting your right to mount a dish and/or antenna rests with the landlord, homeowner association, city council, etc. Strictly speaking, you do not need to seek prior permission or provide prior notice, so long as the device is to be situated in an area under your control and there is no obvious safety issue.

However, before taking on the expense and effort of such an installation, you should read and review in its entirety the following summary of the FCC ruling on consumer rights to mount over-the-air devices:

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

DroptheRemote

08-26-04, 05:28 PM

Matt,

Welcome -- it's good to have you here and I appreciate the time you took to introduce yourself.

Also, you touched on one of my favorite topics -- satellite dishes in apartment buildings and the landlords who despise them.

It may still be a complete non-starter for you, but if you have a suitable place for mounting a dish in an area of your apartment that is designed for your own use (balcony, patio, rooftop), your apartment landlord can't stop you from doing so.

See the first couple of posts in this month's thread (they appear at the beginning each and every month). One of these explains your rights to mount an antenna and satellite.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4134758#post4134758

No question about it -- there ARE limitations about what you can do as an apartment dweller, but the idea that a landlord, resident association, city, etc can issue a blanket decree forbidding their use is usually wrong.

For example, if you have a balcony and it is designed solely for your use, you can mount a dish and/or antenna on it, even if your written lease agreement forbids it. The same is true for a rooftop, so long as the rooftop hasn't been previously designated as being for common use.

The only notable exceptions are that you don't create a safety hazard and you're not in a historically protected building. In the case of a hazard, the onus of proof is on the landlord, not you.

If you have a suitable location for mounting a dish, you need not seek prior approval.

Just want to make sure that you've been fully briefed on what you can and can't do...

DroptheRemote

08-26-04, 05:30 PM

Tim,

Great minds think in parallel... :)

Technowood

08-26-04, 05:43 PM

Thanks guys,

I had read that post, but alas, with the layout of my building, there is no area that is not "Common" that would allow for access to the southern sky. I am simply going to have to remain with Charter until I am once again a home owner. Thanks for the warm welcome.

Matt

wuench

08-26-04, 06:14 PM

I don't have HD yet, but the SD channel went to weather news and they announced they lost their network feed due to rain fade. Not sure how long this lasted...

Jwalter

08-26-04, 09:31 PM

I wanted to know if anyone has noticed the motion artifacts on KSDK during the Olympics coverage? (my apologies if this has been discussed before) it is so bad as I am almost finding it unwatchable during events with lots of fast movement or camera panning.

I do not recall this during the wonderful coverage of the winter games in Salt Lake.
I am curious if KSDK is experimenting with some new compression techniques? the picture sharpness is below what it was two years ago.

Toeside

08-27-04, 12:12 AM

Technowood,

You say that XP Media Center can't do HD? Can't you just add an HD card to it? There are several PCI HD Tuners available for PCs and I think Media Center supports them. You might want to look into that.

Then add an OTA antenna--an indoor would probably work, then you can time shift on the PC.

Good luck. I'd go nuts if I couldn't have DirecTV. Proud HD TiVo owner. :)

Craig

jedi35

08-27-04, 05:24 AM

So what's up with the sound for Charter's HD coverage of the Olympics earlier tonight? I haven't checked it in a few hours, but it was totally off from the video. Now by a few milliseconds, but WAY off. I'm talking sound from a commercial, but video from the games. Also, I noticed that the sound wasn't in 5.1 during the games when I tuned in tonight, then they flipped a switch and got it going, but still didn't match it to the picture. I'm going back in to check it now.

I know I stated this before, but 4113 told us that bandwidth is not a problem with our local Charter service. Still, I would love to see the analog channels go digital.

comp1040

08-27-04, 07:59 AM

It may not be a Charter problem.

There are other complaints in the forum about the HD Olympic quality.
One thread started with a story of a fire in NBC's truck and that the coverage
went blank for an hour and then came back on with a repeat from 4 hours
prior. They mentioned loosing 5.1 and that the PQ was noticeably degraded
from previous coverage.

Ron

oby

08-27-04, 08:13 AM

Someone started a thread in the "programming" section called, "what is the next hd channel Charter will add" (or something like that).

The very few responses are not very kind. Gee, I wonder why.

DroptheRemote

08-27-04, 08:16 AM

Here's hope for lower prices for the HD TiVo DVR...

It would be interesting to know how many of the 225,000 new DirecTV/TiVo subs were a result of the HD product, but apparently there was no breakdown.

Also, it seems like one good look at the company's non-DirecTV sales during the quarter should be enough to send rational TiVo shareholders running for the exits...

The following is from SkyREPORT e-News:

_________________________

TiVo Adds Subs, Addresses NDS Talk

TiVo added 225,000 DirecTV subscribers to its DVR service during its last fiscal quarter, the company reported Thursday. And company executives addressed talk about a new DVR company joining with DirecTV, possibly providing TiVo with some competition for its top customer.

TiVo Chairman and CEO Mike Ramsay took on speculation that NDS Group will debut a DVR product for DirecTV. He said that while no DirecTV DVR product has shown up yet from NDS, "we assume they will enter the market, and we are prepared to compete aggressively."

NDS Group said it's working on a DVR product for DirecTV, possibly for launch in first quarter 2005. NDS and DirecTV are both controlled by News Corp.

Ramsay pointed out that TiVo survived with its DirecTV business intact when Microsoft came and went with its Ultimate TV DVR product that was used by the satellite TV company. And he said TiVo has "tremendous competitive advantages" with its DirecTV DVR offering.

TiVo said it added 288,000 total subscriptions in the second quarter, more than triple the number it added during the same period last year. The company said that in the past 12 months its total installed base has more than doubled to 1.884 million.

Of the 288,000 net new subscriptions added during the quarter, about 225,000 are DirecTV/TiVo subscriptions, representing about four times the number of new DirecTV with TiVo subscriptions added during the same period last year. There are 1.097 million DirecTV subscribers with TiVo, the DVR company said.

TiVo said that for the quarter ending Oct. 31, it expects 340,000 to 400,000 net subscription additions, ending with about 2.2 million to 2.3 million subs. At the end of its fiscal year in late January, TiVo expects to finish with about 3 million subs, the company said.
_________________________

DroptheRemote

08-27-04, 08:27 AM

Here's the link to the Charter HD thread over at the HDTV Programming forum:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=438845

DroptheRemote

08-27-04, 08:36 AM

Here's a good article summarizing a speech given by the ESPN-HD honcho at this week's HDTV Forum meeting:

BTW, I love the point about the "quadruple focus" buzzword marketing nonsense. It's not just a problem of consumer confusion, it's hokum over substance.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/tvlistings/espnhd/espnHDStory?id=1868253

GlendaleHDTV

08-27-04, 09:13 AM

Speaking of new Charter HD channels, there is/was a lively debate going on in the HD programming forum regarding the negotiating position of Sinclair Broadcasting (who owns our local ABC affiliate) as it relates to carriage fees for the local affiliates it owns. Based on the commentary in this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=437236), I wouldn't expect ABC-HD to show up on Charter anytime soon.

--Tyler

Technowood

08-27-04, 09:43 AM

Craig

Media Center 2004 does not support any of the current HD cards. I am a regular over at www.thegreenbutton.com which is a forum for MCE owners. Its always a hot topic of debate over there. Everyone is holding out hope that MCE 2005 will support HD, but no one at Microsoft is saying for sure. It is in an early beta right now, but only a very small hand picked group is included in the beta and so far they have been pretty tight lipped about features and enhancements.

Matt

BudShark

08-27-04, 10:43 AM

OK - toeside and others with DirecTV HDTivo:

I'm concerned over some of the reports of sensitive OTA tuners and the fact its a first gen device - any thoughts on whether its worth a non-experienced Tivo owner to get it now, or hold out for a while longer? What issues are you experiencing with it with STL stations?

kwatkins

08-27-04, 10:58 AM

DirecTV's web site says local channels are available. Does that mean no antenna is needed?

Kirk

RaceTripper

08-27-04, 11:23 AM

Originally posted by kwatkins
DirecTV's web site says local channels are available. Does that mean no antenna is needed?

Kirk

That is true, but the locals are SD. If you want HD locals you need an ATSC tuner (which the DirecTV HD receivers all have builtin) and antennae.

MSloss

08-27-04, 11:32 AM

kwatkins

08-27-04, 11:44 AM

Excuse my ignorance as I'm have always been a Charter subscriber. I just built my HT about a month ago and upgraded to Charter HD. I love the HD stuff on my 108" screen. I've been planning on getting the Moxi box when available. I've been seeing some reports of substantially degraded analog SD with the Moxi. I believe it will be a long time before Charter is fully digital. So....I'm looking at DirecTV HD with HD TiVo. Hi have TiVo now and love the interface. It's one of the first generation systems from Sony.

I'm concerned over getting an antenna to work well for OTA. We don't care much about the local programming. Is the network programming available in HD on DirecTV?

Thanks,
Kirk

duihlein

08-27-04, 12:01 PM

Kirk,
I'd like to know what projector you are using.
I'm in the market for a new projector. I'm currently holding out till the AE700 comes out, that is if they announce it in the next month or two. Indications are it may be available by the beginning of next year, but they are just rumors right now.

Anyway, I know there is at least a Z2 LCD owner and a Benq PB6100 dlp owner on the forum and I'd like to see as many options in person before I make my decision.

Thanks,
Dave

MSloss

08-27-04, 12:14 PM

Originally posted by kwatkins

I'm concerned over getting an antenna to work well for OTA. We don't care much about the local programming. Is the network programming available in HD on DirecTV?

Thanks,
Kirk

Kirk, not presently. Fox and NBC network HD feeds are reportedly coming soon on DirecTV for cities where the networks own the local stations. For us, that will only apply to Fox.

How far are you from the towers? I am about 23 miles in Dardenne Prairie (St. Charles), and can get OTA fine except 46 as I explained in an earlier post.

Mike

Dave_STLMO

08-27-04, 12:32 PM

duihlein

I have a Z2 and live in Maryland Hts.

Let me know if you wanna' take a look.

Best
Dave

Robert Simandl

08-27-04, 12:45 PM

My HD Tivo in St. Peters has similar issues with 46-1 UPN. Fairly regular freeze-ups and pixellation, never bad enough for me to lose the signal entirely, but bad enough to make the channel unwatchable for me. The same channel, coming through the same antenna on the roof, and coming through the same multiswitch, is fine on my Hughes HTL-HD non-Tivo receiver. Other than Enterprise, I don't watch this channel so this isn't a dealbreaker for me.

Titantv.com lists a digital channel for KNLC (Rev. Larry Rice's station), but I can't pick it up. I don't fault the HD Tivo for that since the HTL-HD can't pick it up either.

If you like the Tivo interface, I'd say go ahead and pick one up (maybe wait a month or two for a price drop). I've personally been using ReplayTV's for several years until now, so I find the Tivo interface entirely too cutesy and annoying. But if you're already familiar with the interface, you'll fine it's exactly the same on the HD model.

Toeside

08-27-04, 01:45 PM

Originally posted by BudShark
OK - toeside and others with DirecTV HDTivo:

I'm concerned over some of the reports of sensitive OTA tuners and the fact its a first gen device - any thoughts on whether its worth a non-experienced Tivo owner to get it now, or hold out for a while longer? What issues are you experiencing with it with STL stations?

So far I've had one issue with the HD TiVo. The HDMI/DVI port went out. They sent me a replacement in 2 days.

I've heard that the OTA tuners are sensitive, not sure. Having never owned an HD STB, I don't have a baseline. When we were living in Chesterfield while our house was being built, I received all locals OTA except UPN. That was with a Silver Sensor in the attic.

In O'Fallon, just east of K on the North side of N, I'm using an old, $15 Phillips non-directional UHF/VHF/FM antenna. I get all the locals, without aiming it or worrying about interference from people in the room.

I'm very happy with the OTA quality I'm receiving.

First Gen device concerns? Sure....especially with the HDMI issues. At least there are reports of DirecTV acknowledging the issue. Hopefully they'll figure out the problem and correct them soon.

For me, I bought early because 1) we had the money available due to the sale of our old house 2) I was buying my first HDTV and really wanted HD 3) as much as I wanted HD, there was no way I could go back to watching Live TV.

Overall, I have no regrets. Hopefully the HDMI card doesn't fail again, or worse, fail outside of the warranty period.

Craig

Toeside

08-27-04, 01:58 PM

Robert, what's cutesy and annoying about the TiVo interface? I've never seen Replay's interface, but I think the TiVo hit the nail on the head with a simple interface that's user friend and intuitive.

:)

I'm a TiVo nut.

Craig

abcward

08-27-04, 02:30 PM

So, is FOX showing tonight's Rams game in HD? And when exactly is FOX going to start broadcasting in HD? They promised to have true HD before the NFL started up this year.

jedi35

08-27-04, 02:43 PM

duihlein,

I'm back in town now, and if you want to come over and check out my PB6100 just pop me a PM.

Joe Smith

08-27-04, 03:03 PM

Originally posted by duihlein
Kirk,
I'd like to know what projector you are using.
I'm in the market for a new projector. I'm currently holding out till the AE700 comes out, that is if they announce it in the next month or two. Indications are it may be available by the beginning of next year, but they are just rumors right now.

Anyway, I know there is at least a Z2 LCD owner and a Benq PB6100 dlp owner on the forum and I'd like to see as many options in person before I make my decision.

Thanks,
Dave
I have been using a Z1 for a year now and have no complaints at all. I'm projecting onto 119" diag screen.

dweebe

08-27-04, 03:17 PM

Originally posted by abcward
So, is FOX showing tonight's Rams game in HD? And when exactly is FOX going to start broadcasting in HD? They promised to have true HD before the NFL started up this year.

No they are not showing tonight's Rams/Redskins game in HD. Although last week's Fox game with the Giants was shot/produced in 720p (so the production people could get use to the new equipment) and then sent out in 480p. I was out of town and did not see it myself but according to the threads I read about it, the game looked excellent in 480p and should look amazing once they start using 720p. Fox has not let the affiliates break the seals on the splicers that would enable a station to broadcast HD.

Fox never promissed true HD before the start of the regular season. They are still sticking to a Sept 12 start date with no dry-runs announced.

dweebe

08-27-04, 05:15 PM

OK: insert foot in mouth. Just came across in the last hour.

It's OFFICIAL - FOX HD Testing Complete - Splicers go Online 8/30! (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=439520)

Here are some quotes that will be helpful.

Although the 9/12 date is still the official rollout of FOX HD, the splicer testing is now complete, and all stations with splicers installed have been instructed to go online on 8/30. From that point on, any HD distributed should be available from any affiliate who has had their splicer installed.

Note:

1) Expect a few anomalies during primetime on 8/30 as these stations make the transition to the splicer feed (all programming scheduled on 8/30-9/1 is SD 4:3 anyway.)

2) Obviously the clock is ticking for those affiliates who have not yet upgraded to 720p - FOX is urging all stations that intend to upgrade to 720p before 9/12 to immediately get on the splicer installation schedule. This infers that FOX is pretty much on schedule to getting any station that was willing to upgrade in time - upgraded to HD by 9/12.

The 8/30 is not a "deadline" date to go online by - it's a specific date to activate the splicer, so everyone will be going online starting primetime on 8/30.

Well that is the earliest a station could start to put it on line and there are several hoops to jump through before it goes on line so that is no guarantee you will see new splicers on line Monday night since part of the set up has to be done during Prime Time OFF LINE and that part might take longer than 2 hours to get it done. Once that is done, FOX is asking stations to run in parallel OFF LINE for several hours before putting the splicer on line. If the stations follow that (and some won't) it may be Wednesday night before you see many on line. You should be able to tell if they insert the local bug outside the safe 4:3 area instead of a network bug. Then you'll know they're online.

While FOX has made the splicer as automated and foolproof as possible, the local affiliate is responsible for interfacing the control to the station's analog master
control switcher. Here at WCCB & WRSP, the splicer is slaved to the analog
master control, and will automatically pass whatever FOX feeds. There's no switch to flip here, it's all automated under FOX's control.. That's the way it's intended to work when properly interfaced at the local level. I must note that not all stations have the equipment and flexibility to do the things that may be necessary for proper integration to ensure the HD feed
is always passed. Some may have to manually switch the feed.

Let's keep an eye on KTVI guys. OTA and Charter! Let's also hope that KTVI is setup the "right" way and all the switching is done at the network level.

MoxiGuy

08-28-04, 03:35 PM

Originally posted by BudShark
Some of the other boxes have started to NOT do the buffer then display. They display live and buffer in the background. While this will make your live material look as good as it does now - it has two bad sides. 1) The recorded material still looks like crap and 2) The pause/rewind is not seemless - there is a 1-2 second delay to pause/rewind and catching up to 'realtime' is very much an issue. Basically once you pause, you stay in the 'low quality' buffered mode. MOXI is not doing this now - and I'm not sure I would want them to.
Chris,
I appreciate your take on this. We've considered the solution you describe... feeding an unbuffered live signal to the screen until the viewer hits pause or rewind and then switching to the buffered feed.

We're inclined not to for the precise reasons you mention: a) once you're back in the buffer, the PQ issues return, and b) the delay is jarring. Overall, it seems like a messier viewing experience to us. But it does give the viewer control over making the tradeoff between higher PQ vs. DVR playback controls and recording. We're very open to feedback. So if anyone wants to weigh in on this, have at it.

Robert Simandl

08-28-04, 03:59 PM

Originally posted by Toeside
Robert, what's cutesy and annoying about the TiVo interface? I've never seen Replay's interface, but I think the TiVo hit the nail on the head with a simple interface that's user friend and intuitive.

Hey Craig,

What's cutesy and/or annoying about the Tivo interface:

1. That stupid little Tivo mascot. I much prefer ReplayTV's basic R in a circle.

2. The stupid sounds the Tivo makes when I navigate through the menus. The minute I figured out how to shut those sounds off, I did. Now it's blissfully silent, just like my Replay was right out of the box.

3. The Tivo suggestions show nothing but the show's title until you select it. The similar ReplayTV Replay Zones actually separate the genres into sci-fi, horror, comedy, etc. Plus they show what channel the show is on and give a brief description without having to select the show first. For example, I can tell a lot quicker on the Replay if an R-rated movie will be showing on a basic channel that will most likely cut it to shreds, than I can on the Tivo. The Replay Zones also keep their suggestions to channels I've actually selected in my list. For example, the Tivo actually suggested a movie on HBO Latino this morning, complete with its description entirely in Spanish... I don't speak a lick of Spanish and do NOT have HBO Latino in my Favorite channels list. The Tivo is also quite annoying when it suggests a show that's playing only on PPV, another annoyance I don't have with the Replay.

4. But most of all, I hate the sloooooooow channel guide. Yeah, the moving DirecTV logo and the moving clouds in the background are kinda neat, but I much prefer the Replay's totally static guide that loads and changes pages instantly.

But all that is outweighed by the fact that the Tivo can record HD, in HD, without downrezzing to 480i. No device made by ReplayTV or announced for the near future by ReplayTV can do this, so I'm gonna be living with the Tivo's cutesy and annoying interface for some time to come.

Toeside

08-28-04, 10:28 PM

Robert,

Issues 1 and 2 are funny. I like the TiVo guy. My almost 3 year old also likes it. Great minds think alike. :) Sounds? Turn 'em off, you did, great... Not real issues, really, unlike parts of 3 and 4.

So, you use Favorites, eh? I don't, and I think I can offer some help. Set up "Channels I receive". I pull out the channels I don't get and channels I don't like. TiVo Suggestions pull from this channel list, not Favorites. Unfortunately I don't think that's configurable. So, don't want HBOL suggestions, just pull them out of "Channels I receive". I also remove DirecTV locals, so 2, 4, 5, 9, 11, 24, 30, 46 are all removed. 2-1, 4-1, etc are in the list, so suggestions get recorded from those. Same with HBOH vs HBO. The first HBO channel is the same as the HD HBO channel, so remove that.

As far as your description of the recorded shows on a Replay, all that info sounds very useful. I would like more info on the Now Playing list.

Slow guide...are you using the DirecTV guide or the TiVo List guide? The TiVo List guide is much faster. There was a thread about why over at T-C. Something about the way the guide data is indexed. The DirecTV guide has to do 1 database query per channel listed on the screen vs the TiVo List having to do 2 total queries: What's on the selected channel for the next few hours and what's on now. The TiVo programmers *should* enable better indexing so it's a non-issue, but it hasn't been fixed in how many years now?

Craig

MoxiGuy

08-29-04, 08:12 AM

I put up a poll on the feature that BudShark talked about. If you have an opinon on by-passing the pause-buffer on live TV, you can vote here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=440006).

StLouisRod

08-30-04, 02:28 PM

Originally posted by Jwalter
I wanted to know if anyone has noticed the motion artifacts on KSDK during the Olympics coverage? (my apologies if this has been discussed before) it is so bad as I am almost finding it unwatchable during events with lots of fast movement or camera panning.

I do not recall this during the wonderful coverage of the winter games in Salt Lake.
I am curious if KSDK is experimenting with some new compression techniques? the picture sharpness is below what it was two years ago.

Yup, noticed it too using OTA STB Zenith HDV-420. It is a bit annoying, but didn't stop me from enjoying the show. It was worst on the basketball games due to the constant side to side panning. Glad I wasn't the only one who noticed!

Toeside

08-30-04, 11:34 PM

We are a quiet bunch lately, aren't we?

I was looking at the new fall lineup today. It's nice to see that all the new shows are being produced in HD.

There, that's better than just a shameless bump! :)

Craig

Robert Simandl

08-31-04, 12:10 AM

Hey Craig,

Does that list include Charmed on the WB? I've always been annoyed that my weekly Alyssa Milano cleavage fix is still in 4x3 SD after all this time...

ferl

08-31-04, 07:14 AM

Satellite service
I'm new to satellite service. It was installed 2 days ago and I don't know what is correct and what is not with satellite. I have a couple of issues and am looking for clarification.

1.) When changing channels, the channel information shows up in 1 second but takes 4 to 6 seconds for the actual picture to change.

2.) Some of the HD channels have intermittent pixelation, tiling or checkering, whichever term makes more sense to you. Showtime seems to be the the most affected. SD is fine.

3.) Signal strength varies from trasnponder to transponder and rangers from 86 to 102.

Thanks in advance for any replies.

Toeside

08-31-04, 10:19 AM

Originally posted by ferl
Satellite service
I'm new to satellite service. It was installed 2 days ago and I don't know what is correct and what is not with satellite. I have a couple of issues and am looking for clarification.

1.) When changing channels, the channel information shows up in 1 second but takes 4 to 6 seconds for the actual picture to change.

2.) Some of the HD channels have intermittent pixelation, tiling or checkering, whichever term makes more sense to you. Showtime seems to be the the most affected. SD is fine.

3.) Signal strength varies from trasnponder to transponder and rangers from 86 to 102.

Thanks in advance for any replies.

Which satellite service do you have? DirecTV? Dish Network? Voom?

Toeside

08-31-04, 10:30 AM

Originally posted by Robert Simandl
Hey Craig,

Does that list include Charmed on the WB? I've always been annoyed that my weekly Alyssa Milano cleavage fix is still in 4x3 SD after all this time...

Robert, I was really just referring to NEW shows, not the new season of existing shows.

I checked out the WB's website: KPLR HTDV Link (http://wb11tv.trb.com/entertainment/hidef/stv-wb-hdtv-fall04.htmlstory). This shows all WB shows available in HD. Unfortunately, you'll still see little Samatha Micelli in 4:3. :p

Maybe next year. Who knows.

Craig

ferl

08-31-04, 05:34 PM

Originally posted by Toeside
Which satellite service do you have? DirecTV? Dish Network? Voom?

Dish Network

jedi35

08-31-04, 08:52 PM

Hey Bob,

Good to see that you are still out there. I've popped you a couple of PMs, but didn't know if you'd gotten them. Let me know.

DroptheRemote

08-31-04, 09:02 PM

In case anyone overlooked it, DirecTV has added Bravo-HD on channel 74.

Presumably this was driven by the US Open Tennis coverage in HD, but I assume that Bravo-HD (or whatever NBC ends up calling it) is with us for the duration.

And for anyone who missed Ms. Sharapova in HD on Leno, she's now playing in the featured match (and flashing the high beams) in HD... ;)

Toeside

08-31-04, 09:34 PM

Originally posted by ferl
Dish Network

I haven't had Dish Network since the dreaded Dishplayer 7200 days, and definitely have no experience with HD on Dish Network.

But, for the members that do, which HD channels are you having trouble with? Satellite HD feeds, OTA HD feeds or both?

If it's OTA HD, share with us your location (general area is fine), and the antenna you are using.

Craig

jedi35

09-01-04, 04:16 AM

Doug,

Hey thanks for the heads up about the US Open on BravoHD. I didn't know about it, and I'll check it out on Voom. You mean I'm gonna see Sharapova in HD? Way cool!!

turls

09-01-04, 05:06 AM

Yeah, its Sept., I'm not starting the new thread at 4 in the morning.

KSDK-DT blew it on Father of the Pride. One of the biggest things promoted during the Olympics, no commercials even, and no switch to HD during the whole thing.

Guess I will have to depend on those that aren't time shifting HD to get on the horn when this stuff continues to happen.

DroptheRemote

09-01-04, 08:05 AM

Well, the Gregorian odometer rolls on and it's a new month.

Here's a link to the last posting in August:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4284029#post4284029

DroptheRemote

09-01-04, 08:06 AM

A new thread for September 2004 has been started.

Please go here to post any new messages to the St. Louis discussion:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4284196#post4284196

DroptheRemote

09-01-04, 08:08 AM

St Louis Tower Maps

For anyone doing the initial install of an OTA antenna, or anyone looking to fine-tune the positioning of their existing antenna, the attached ZIP file contains two maps showing the tower location for each digital station in St. Louis.

Your Right to Erect an Antenna and/or Satellite Dish

As more and more consumers purchase high-definition displays, there's increasing interest in arranging for receipt of HD programming via an over-the-air antenna or through a satellite dish.

Unfortunately with the proliferation of cable television in the 1980s and 1990s, many communities, property developers and homeowner/condo owner associations tried to undo the visual blight of antennas (and later, satellite dishes) from their local skylines. While these laws, rules or convenants were well-intended -- after all, it would be difficult to argue for the cosmetic benefits of a yagi antenna -- these actions are not legally enforceable.

The FCC has ruled -- with only a few very narrow exceptions -- that you have the right to receive over-the-air television and radio broadcasts and as a result you have a right to erect an antenna to receive these signals. This ruling also encompasses the erection of small satellite dishes.

Even if you have previously signed a lease or homeower association convenant that requires you to forego the right to erect an antenna or satellite dishes, the FCC has ruled that these types of provisions are unenforceable.

In general, there are only a few notable exceptions to this rule:

* First, the location of the antenna or dish must be an "exclusive use" area. As a homeowner or condominium owner, this would mean any part of the property over which you have control. For renters, this would also apply to balconies or patios that are intended solely for your use. The sort of rental property area that would not be covered would be general use areas, such as common passageways or rooftop areas that are clearly intended for the shared use of all residents.

* Second, the antenna or dish cannot be erected in areas that would create a legitimate safety issue, for example one that is dangling off a balcony or placed too close to electrical wiring.

* Third, there may be restrictions if you are located in a designated historical (or prehistorical) district, in which case a permit may be required.

The other major limitation is that these devices cannot exceed 1 meter (39.37 inches) in diameter.

The burden of proof in contesting your right to mount a dish and/or antenna rests with the landlord, homeowner association, city council, etc. Strictly speaking, you do not need to seek prior permission or provide prior notice, so long as the device is to be situated in an area under your control and there is no obvious safety issue.

However, before taking on the expense and effort of such an installation, you should read and review in its entirety the following summary of the FCC ruling on consumer rights to mount over-the-air devices:

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

More Information about Antennas and DTV

The Consumer Electronics Association antenna mapping program at AntennaWeb.org can help you determine the proper antenna to use, based on your own location and the distance from the local digital broadcast towers.

http://antennaweb.org/aw/welcome.aspx

Feedback to St. Louis Stations

Is there something that you're unhappy about concerning the digital broadcasts by local St. Louis stations?

Weird-looking presentation of standard-definition programming? Multiple channel bugs cluttering up those beautiful images? Somebody at the station forgot to "flip the switch" before or during the middle of your favorite HD program?

Or better yet, maybe you'd just like to send your thanks and encouragement to your favorite local station for the effort they've made so far in providing us with more and better HD programming. The cost and effort in providing digital and HD programming is significant, and it's important for the station owners and management to know that we're watching.

Well, here's the place where you can find the online addresses where you can send your comments and feedback.

KTVI Channel 2 contact:
ktvitech@fox2ktvi.com

KMOV Channel 4 contact:
programs@kmov.com
WNichol@kmov.com

KSDK Channel 5 contact:
jheskett@ksdk.gannett.com
kcreamer@ksdk.gannett.com

KETC Channel 9 contact:
letters@ketc.org

KPLR Channel 11 contact:
whatson@wb11tv.com
technical@wb11tv.com

KDNL Channel 30 contact:
jwright@kdnl.sbgnet.com

WRBU Channel 46 contact:
[no email, no web site, no HD programming]

DroptheRemote

09-01-04, 08:11 AM

* There are two ways to receive local digital/HD broadcasts in the St. Louis area. The first, and by far simplest, is to subscribe to Charter Cable. Unfortunately, Charter doesn't currently provide all of the available St. Louis digital stations. To date, Charter is only offering KTVI-DT (FOX), KMOV-DT (CBS) and KSDK-DT (NBC).

Until Charter is able to deliver a complete line-up of local digital/HD stations (or if you've already selected satellite for your subscription television service), you'll need some sort of antenna -- either indoor, attic or roof mount.

* Forget most of what you know about receiving traditional analog television via an antenna, as digital broadcasting is for the most part a different animal.

The first and most important thing to know is that digital signals, once received, tend to be highly stable. The sort of artifacts that you may recall about pre-cable antenna reception of local stations isn't all that relevant to digital reception. For example, in the digital realm there's no visual equivalent to the analog artifacts known as "snow," or "ghosting."

And in most cases, a digital signal won't slowly fade in and out as was sometimes the case in fringe analog reception areas. For the most part, with digital broadcasts you either receive the signal and have a near-perfect picture and sound, or you won't get anything at all.

In addition, barring significant topographical or architectural obstacles between your location and the transmission towers, digital signals appear to be more robust in terms of distance they can travel without degradation. While it's the exception rather than the rule, there are instances where digital OTA signals have been received as far as 120 miles from the tower.

So, just because you may have had difficulty with OTA analog signals in the past at your location, that doesn't necessarily mean you won't be able to receive digital OTA signals.

* All of the current St. Louis digital/HD stations are currently broadcasting in the UHF spectrum. The UHF channel assignments for local stations appears below:

26 - KPLR (WB)
31 - KDNL (ABC)
35 - KSDK (NBC)
39 - KETC (PBS)
43 - KTVI (FOX)
47 - WRBU (UPN)
56 - KMOV (CBS)

Today, all St. Louis stations are "simulcasting," with the traditional analog broadcasts via one frequency and the digital/HD broadcasts through another. For example, KMOV sends its analog broadcasts out as VHF channel 4 and then simulataneously sends its digital broadcasts as UHF channel 56.

As the transition to digital broadcasting progresses, there will come a time when the analog broadcasts will be discontinued and stations will only be transmitting digitally. While this switch from analog to digital was originally scheduled to take place in 2006, it's almost certain that the analog shutdown will be deferred for at least a few years.

But when that analog shutdown does occur, it's possible that one or more local stations will decide to shift their digital broadcasts to their longtime analog channel designations. As a purely hypothetical example, after shutting down its analog broadcasts, KMOV might opt to move its digital transmission to VHF channel 4.

* While the signals for digital/HD broadcasts are made up of binary data (zeros and ones), from a viewer perspective, there's nothing special about the antenna required to receive those broadcasts. As noted above, the actual transmission takes place over the UHF spectrum. That means that if you already have an old UHF-capable antenna on your rooftop or in your attic, there's a good chance that it will receive some, and possibly all, of the available local digital broadcasts. The only way to conclusively determine if that older antenna will carry you into the digital age is to test it.

However, it is possible that in order to maximize signal integrity you might need to upgrade the cable run from an existing antenna to your distribution point(s), especially if the antenna uses the flimsy ribbon-type cable connection. If you need to replace the cable for an existing antenna, RG-6 quad-shield coax is recommended. A 1,000-foot roll of RG-6 quad coax can be purchased for around $75, though it is possible to buy smaller quantities at a higher per-foot cost.

* If you're starting from scratch and need to purchase an antenna, there is some merit in selecting a UHF-only antenna. While a combo VHF-UHF antenna would likely work in many situations, a UHF-only antenna will normally give better, more reliable results. If you do have an existing antenna and it isn't capable of pulling in all of the stations in the area, there's a good chance that swapping out for a UHF-only antenna would result in better reception.

Of course, the downside in opting for a UHF-only antenna is that if any of the local stations subsequently decide to shift their digital broadcasts to their old analog channel assignment, a VHF antenna might be required to continue receiving those stations.

* Without officially endorsing one antenna over another, here are some suggestions that should work for most viewers within a 45-mile radius of the St. Louis transmission towers.

But first, bear in mind that antenna reception is one part art and one part science. What works in one location might not work across the street due to topographical or physical obstacles in the signal path at that second location. But that sort of anomaly is rare, and antenna reception is normally achievable with some reasonable effort and determination. But it is important to understand that there are no certainties and the only way to find out what can be received with an antenna in a given location is to test one yourself or arrange for one to be installed by a proven installer.

For outdoor or attic antennae, ChannelMaster sells at least two UHF-only models that you should consider -- the CM4221 (retail $25), which is a 4-bay rated for 45 miles, and the CM4228 (retail $50), which is an 8-bay rated for 60 miles. Winegard has the Prostar 1000 model PR-4400 rated for 45 miles, and the PR-8800 rated for 60 miles. Radio Shack also sells a UHF-only antenna (catalog # 15-2160, $30 retail) that is worth considering.

As a general suggestion, avoid antennas that appear to be working overtime to not look like an antenna. While it's true that traditional antennae are unattractive and a lot of people consider them to be eyesores to be avoided at all cost, the newer streamlined, aerodynamic antennae seem to compromise reception capability in exchange for a more friendly appearance.

For indoor antennas, there are many options here as well, but the current performance leader is the Zenith Silver Sensor (ZHDTV1), which is available at most local Best Buy stores at a cost of around $40. The excellent performance of the Silver Sensor is probably in part due to the fact that Zenith actually designed the technology responsible for the transmission of OTA digital/HD signals, known as 8VSB.

Again, there's no reliable way to predict if an indoor antenna will work in your location, short of buying one and testing it. The good news here is that most of the major retailers have reasonable return policies, so it's unlikely that you'll be out major bucks if it turns out that an indoor antenna isn't up to the job in your home.

SheerLuck_Homes

09-01-04, 09:23 AM

Does anyone know a lawyer that would like to start a class action law suit against E*? As I posted last month I just upgraded from my 501 receiver to a 921 receiver. I checked my bill and E* is including a $4.99 charge for "VOD" (video on demand). This is a monthly charge for the recording capabilities of the 921. The recording capabilities are identical to the 501 and there are no charges associated with that receiver's recording capabilities.

I am outraged. This is the same as buying a VCR, popping in a tape and having a pop up tell me that if I want to push the play button, I'll have to pay the manufacturer a monthly fee. I was on the phone last night with E* for about two hours, going from one supervisor to the next. No one could explain why I was being charged for these "recording capabilities" when I wasn't on the 501. One tech supervisor finally said, "these fees are current throughout all the competitors, but we don't charge you as much as they do"

A fraudulent over charge that is a little less than everyone else's over charge is still an overcharge. It's not the $4.99 its the thought of being charged for something that should not be and is not charged before (i.e. the 501).

I am dead serious, if anyone knows of a lawyer that wants to take this on let me know.

duihlein

09-01-04, 09:28 AM

I've had Dish HD for about a month now with the 811 receiver. The picture has been very good. The only time I see breakups are when I'm browsing the guide and I assume that's because it's being overlayed in the corner.

Keep in mind I only watch ESPN HD and OTA at any length. The others I just flip on to see the pretty picture.

I think the tuner in my HiPix is better (more sensative) than the OTA of the 811, but the colors from the 811 are much better. Of course this probably just means I should make some adjustments on my PC, it seems to be running a little bright.

Dave

DroptheRemote

09-01-04, 09:38 AM

Sheerluck,

I understand your frustration with DISH and the charges for your recording capabilities.

On the other hand, I think "going legal" is a non-starter. It rarely changes the way companies operate and even where a settlement or decision is made in favor of the plaintiffs, the only real winners are the lawyers.

I think the only way to effect change is to "vote with your feet." If it's a real issue and enough people make it clear that DISH is losing $80 a month because it wants to throw in a $5 charge that upsets a customer, they will eventually get the message.

On the other hand, if you want access to some low-cost legal services to test this concept, I could point you in the right direction. Private message me if you'd like more details.

DroptheRemote

09-01-04, 09:40 AM

Dave,

Part of the problem with HTPCs and color is that the color gamut that most PC video cards use is quite a bit different from the standards for either NTSC or HDTV.

I believe that this is actually one of the issues that the ISF testing lab is looking to highlight with video card manufacturers and consumers.

Toeside

09-01-04, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by turls
Yeah, its Sept., I'm not starting the new thread at 4 in the morning.

KSDK-DT blew it on Father of the Pride. One of the biggest things promoted during the Olympics, no commercials even, and no switch to HD during the whole thing.

Guess I will have to depend on those that aren't time shifting HD to get on the horn when this stuff continues to happen.

I TiVod it last night. In fact, I found my old Philips indoor antenna sitting on the floor from my speaker_falling_off_the_wall_and_on_to_my_reciever mishap. I began to panic. I was going to miss the first night of the new Fall season.

But alas, my trusty $15 5 year old (or more) Philips antenna pulled in KSDK-DT just fine. I check Scrubs, not in HD, but not supposed to be. I checked Father of the Pride. Not in HD, and it WAS supposed to be. WTF?!?!

Time to email KSDK again!

Craig

abcward

09-01-04, 10:00 AM

So, Charter users....it's September now. When should we start calling and asking for PVR? Personally I cannot wait for them to tell me that PVR has been delayed yet another month... that would make my day.

GlendaleHDTV

09-01-04, 11:07 AM

Originally posted by abcward
So, Charter users....it's September now. When should we start calling and asking for PVR? Personally I cannot wait for them to tell me that PVR has been delayed yet another month... that would make my day.

I was told to call a week ahead of the magic September 16th date. I've got it on my calendar to call next Tuesday. If its pushed back again, that's it for me -- HD-TIVO here I come, the kids can pay for their own college.:p

oby

09-01-04, 11:29 AM

I'm not going to get the pvr---sounds too expensive and too complicated. I'm already paying Charter for stupid little "fees" that add up and make me wonder, what exactly am I paying for. I would like more HD channels, but thats a pipe dream it seems.

Anyway--I am watching less and less tv--getting more enjoyment out of reading and listening to satellite radio (XM).

duihlein

09-01-04, 11:40 AM

Dang,
I didn't realize "Father of the Pride" strated last night. We saw the previews for it before the latest Harry Potter movie. It looked to be very funny. Will it be rebroadcast?? Can anyone burn me a copy??

Time to set the new PVR721 for the fall season.
If only my wife could get through the 80+ hours of Olympics she recorded so we can have more the 20 hours of recording space.

Doug,
The HiPix actually put's out it's own component feed and has adjustments for brightness, contrast and RGB values. I have a feeling I should use my Video Essentials disk to calibrate it just like I calibrated my TV using VE on my DVD player (that is, before I had you out to calibrate)

Dave

abcward

09-01-04, 12:32 PM

Dave,

Trust me, you didnt miss much. Personally I was disappointed with "Father of the Pride", but maybe it was just me.

jebel

09-01-04, 02:43 PM

Hey guys,

I'm a relative newbie here with a couple quick questions. Just purchased a Samsung 351 for OTA signals. I live in South City right by Ted Drewes (looks not too far away from most of the towers on DropTheRemote's original post).

Question 1: How good of an antenna do I need? If I can get a relatively inexpensive one and just stick it somewhere in my house, that'd be great. But if I gotta go on the roof, so be it.

2: Where are some basic antenna installation instructions?

Thanks in advance,

John

davesalaman

09-01-04, 08:12 PM

Glad they remembered to flip the switch tonight.

Would be nice if there was dialoge though.

davidnark

09-01-04, 08:13 PM

Originally posted by jebel
Hey guys,

I'm a relative newbie here with a couple quick questions. Just purchased a Samsung 351 for OTA signals. I live in South City right by Ted Drewes (looks not too far away from most of the towers on DropTheRemote's original post).

Question 1: How good of an antenna do I need? If I can get a relatively inexpensive one and just stick it somewhere in my house, that'd be great. But if I gotta go on the roof, so be it.

2: Where are some basic antenna installation instructions?

Thanks in advance,

John

I also live in the city. I live next door to Forest Park (i.e., further than you from most towers). I have no problems picking up all of the over-the-air HD signals from my basement with a Silver Sensor Antenna (http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=90113670&loc=111&sp=1) I picked up from buy.com for $23.

jebel

09-01-04, 08:41 PM

Thanks for the info David. Ordered your antenna for 30 bucks. Just out of curiosity, why won't my old rabbit ears not work? Anybody know?

DroptheRemote

09-01-04, 09:06 PM

Has anyone else with DirecTV noticed that HBO has moved to Channel 70 and Discovery has disappeared?

Maybe this is just a momentary lapse with Discovery while they're reshuffling the channels?

Toeside

09-01-04, 10:24 PM

Originally posted by davesalaman
Glad they remembered to flip the switch tonight.

Would be nice if there was dialoge though.

Yeah, what's up with that? My wife and I just sat down to watch it and there was no dialog. I wondered if it was something to do with the HD TiVo, but everything else was working fine. Luckily the premier is on 9/3 and 9/4, so there are two more chances for NBC to fix what was broken.

Craig

Toeside

09-01-04, 10:25 PM

Originally posted by jebel
Thanks for the info David. Ordered your antenna for 30 bucks. Just out of curiosity, why won't my old rabbit ears not work? Anybody know?

Aren't rabbit ears VHF only? All the OTA channels in St. Louis are UHF.

Craig

davesalaman

09-01-04, 10:37 PM

Originally posted by Toeside
Yeah, what's up with that? My wife and I just sat down to watch it and there was no dialog. I wondered if it was something to do with the HD TiVo, but everything else was working fine. Luckily the premier is on 9/3 and 9/4, so there are two more chances for NBC to fix what was broken.

Craig

According to this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4287744) in HD programming this was the case in a couple other markets as well.

Apparently, the show was DD 5.1. I was only decoding DD 2.0. The center channel was obviously missing. Strange, I know DD 5.1 passthrough works on KSDK because I saw it (heard it) during the Olympics.

Maybe there's another switch that needs flipping too. :rolleyes:

ferl

09-01-04, 10:44 PM

I'm having a minor pixelation/tiling issue with the HD channels and no problems with SD. When I check the signal strength on the transponders that carry the HD, the strengths are 82-90. Many of the SD channels are 100+. Could someone with dish give me an idea of adequate signal strength for the HD? I'm very new to satellite and might not understand how this works. I'm guessing that the same transponder carries the same channel all the time and a degraded signal could be causing this problem.

Robert Simandl

09-02-04, 12:28 AM

Hey Jedi,

Sorry for my non-response of late, but there's a note from me in your e-mail.

Hey Doug,

Yeah, I noticed DirecTV moving the HD channel numbers around, but I still see Discovery. Maybe this shuffle has to do with opening up some consecutive channel numbers for when Fox-HD and NBC-HD start? Personally I'd like to see a UPN-HD on DirecTV, but I suppose WRBU-DT would veto that for us locally.

DroptheRemote

09-02-04, 10:24 AM

Robert,

Discovery returned to my channel lineup around 10 pm last night.

Apparently the move caused some problems with some DirecTV receivers and some customers reported that they had to reset their receivers to get Discover back.

Eventually DirecTV "refreshed" the channel authorizations, because I never reset mine and it came back on its own.

DroptheRemote

09-02-04, 10:28 AM

ferl,

You shouldn't be having any reception or image quality problems with the sort of signal strength that you're reporting.

I'm not exactly sure what the problem might be but it I don't think it's the way your dish is aimed. I'd also doubt that you have any cabling problems, or the receiver wouldn't be reporting the high SQ numbers.

Frankly, I'm stumped. How are you connecting to your display? Component? DVI? I'm doubtful that the interconnect to your display is a problem, but I can't think of anything else.

Maybe you can give a better idea of the specific sort of problems/severity you're seeing. Or maybe someone else has some ideas for you.

jedi35

09-02-04, 06:41 PM

I watched the US OPen on BravoHD via Voom last night and I must say that the picture was stunning in full HD glory. Whenever they did 480p, they had sidebars with graphics, and I could take or leave that. Still it was nice to see that they cared about how the sidebars look to us. I was not happy with the sound, however. I didn't really expect it to be in DD 5.1, but the volume level was quite low during the tennis, and the commercials came in at the normal level, which blasted me. The same footage running on USA in SD had volume levels that were just fine. Also, there was a strange fluttering sound running in the background that sounded like a cd player that was not tracking properly. It always went away during commercials, so I know it was linked to the HD tennis signal. Oh well. Am I going to watch again tonight? Oh yes....maybe they will show some of Sharapova's match(he now wipes drool off the keyboard....)

ferl

09-02-04, 06:54 PM

Originally posted by DroptheRemote
ferl,

You shouldn't be having any reception or image quality problems with the sort of signal strength that you're reporting.

I'm not exactly sure what the problem might be but it I don't think it's the way your dish is aimed. I'd also doubt that you have any cabling problems, or the receiver wouldn't be reporting the high SQ numbers.

Frankly, I'm stumped. How are you connecting to your display? Component? DVI? I'm doubtful that the interconnect to your display is a problem, but I can't think of anything else.

Maybe you can give a better idea of the specific sort of problems/severity you're seeing. Or maybe someone else has some ideas for you.

I'm currently using the DVI but had the problem with the component cables also. All cables from the lnb's to the switch and then to the STB's are new as is the switch. The STB is the dish 811. SHOHD seems to show this problem most often. You can watch a program for 5 to 10 min then a horizontal bar of pixels appear across different parts of the screen. Then all is well for another 5 to 10 minutes. All of the HD is fed from the 110west satellite except for the dish HD showcase channel which is from the 61.5west satellite. I have no problems with the picture from the 61.5 satellite and it's signal strength is 100. The only thing I see different are the signal strengths. The local HD channels are fed from an OTA radio shack ant in the attic. They work fine

jedi35

09-03-04, 01:48 AM

Well it happened .....I got to watch Sharapova's most recent US Open match in HD earlier. I must say it was glorious. It was interesting to see that one of the cameras used in the broadcast showed quite a few blotches on her face, shoulders and arms, and the resolution looked a lot like 480p. Another camera appeared to be fully HD, and her skin appeared quite smooth, with an even tone all over. Makes me wonder about the HD camera...shouldn't it be the one to show more skin imperfections? Did anybody else catch this in HD? Her legs get pretty wet when she plays. It's almost as if she oils them down. Interesting. The camera guys came up with some revealing angles of her as well. I know I'm off topic here.

I was disappointed again with the sound quality. It seemed worse tonight, with lots of loud pops and cutouts near the end. I think I'll try to find a way to watch the HD signal and listen to the sound from the USA network.

wmschultz

09-03-04, 12:36 PM

Sounds like her legs weren't the only thing that was wet.. :D

Please, step away from the remote!

jedi35

09-03-04, 10:28 PM

OK, you asked for this. Did any of you guys check out the hottie that Serena Williams played earlier today. Geez.....the US Open needs to be renamed "The Miss US Open".

MSloss

09-03-04, 10:32 PM

comp1040

09-03-04, 11:15 PM

This was a problem in other parts of the country again.

Also having sound drop outs frequently on the Channel 5 News
at 10 tonight.

Ron

wschwart

09-04-04, 09:04 PM

I've also experienced sound dropouts for several days on KSDK during the news and some glitches when they switch to HD.

Robert Simandl

09-04-04, 09:24 PM

How ironic the audio dropouts on HDnet on the HD Tivo seem to be gone, just as they start on KSDK.....

CoCoKola

09-06-04, 01:33 AM

Hawaii was hilarious.. no not the show, just the hd feed of it. They were broadcasting sound, but it only contained the 'add in effects' - the sound of a busy office, phone ringing, wind blowing etc.

it's like someone made a big mistake during the mix down, and wasn't caught until broadcast.

oh well, every time this stuff happens I remind myself even though I've had HD for two years the phrase "HD early adopters" comes to mind.

Kurt K

09-06-04, 09:03 PM

Originally posted by MSloss
OK, Hawaii was still w/o sound, then it looks like they switched HD off to fix it. What's the deal? Will they get it right on the 3rd try tomorrow?

Mike
Nope, they didn't get it fixed today. Will somebody fix the dialog, please!

Toeside

09-07-04, 09:08 AM

Originally posted by Kurt K
Nope, they didn't get it fixed today. Will somebody fix the dialog, please!

yep, that really sucks. I didn't remember to TiVo the SD feed too, so now I'm stuck with Episode 2 with no dialog. I don't think this one is re-airing either.

UGH!

DroptheRemote

09-07-04, 09:54 AM

I haven't been watching Hawaii but have been reading all the reports on how KSDK-DT has mucked up the HD broadcast of the show. Between its long-running hit-and-miss track record for "flipping the switch" and this sort of thing, I think it's fair to consider KSDK the "Most Hopeless Local Broadcaster."

Effective immediately, KSDK may optionally be referred to as MHLB in this discussion.

(Of course, there is WRBU. But then WRBU has never given any indication of being a real TV station. I think anyone who has any level of expectations from WRBU probably has unresolved Santa Claus/Easter Bunny/Tooth Fairy/Captain Kirk issues. So WRBU is, until further notice, ineligible for MHLB. They're going to have to demonstrate some sort of sustained effort to rise to the level of MHLB status.)

But I digress.

As KSDK is a Gannett property, I thought it might be marginally worth escalating this to the corporate level by writing the executive at Gannett who is responsible for broadcast TV operations.

So, I hopefully navigate my way to the Gannett web site and quickly find the listings for senior management. Sure enough, there's a dedicated page listing the four top executives for Gannett Broadcasting. No eMail addresses, but I figured with a little digging that could probably be worked around.

But wait a minute! Look at that first listing:

Lynn Beall,
Senior vice president,
Gannett Television,
and president and general manager, KSDK-TV

All hope is lost. We have met the enemy and they are LOCAL...

Toeside

09-07-04, 10:05 AM

Originally posted by DroptheRemote

Lynn Beall,
Senior vice president,
Gannett Television,
and president and general manager, KSDK-TV

lbeall@ksdk.gannett.com

I haven't emailed Lynn yet, but I did call and left a message with Programming. I doubt I'll get a call back.

Who wants to email Lynn with me? Should we be nice, or appauled? I doubt it matters much, with 4 failed broadcasts at this point...

:(

The Pilot was pretty good, but the jury is still out. Can't watch the 2nd episode, as I don't have dialog.

Maybe all these issues are grounds for a waiver once the NBC feed hits the DirecTV bird.

Craig

DroptheRemote

09-07-04, 10:14 AM

Maybe I'm feeling negative this morning or maybe it's too much coffee (again), but I think my last post here was probably a wee bit over the top, negatively speaking.

Therefore, to balance things out, I think it's only fair to nominate KMOV, KDNL and KPLR as the "Best Local Broadcasters."

Personally, I'd have to give KMOV a slight edge as the best supporter of digital broadcasting, primarily because they were among the first to support HD, they always seem to get it right, but also because they have some of the more interesting HD programming, including the various CSIs, "Without A Trace," the NFL, NCAA basketball, SEC Football, PGA Tour, Grammies, etc.)

KDNL and KPLR get extra credit and appreciation for being responsive to viewer questions, suggestions and feedback.

KTVI gets an incomplete, but should be a cinch for "Best Digital Newcomer" once the NFL and fall season rolls around.

KETC can be safely ignored until they abandon multicasting.

DroptheRemote

09-07-04, 10:19 AM

Toeside,

As someone who's been down the "waiver request" path in the past, I'd say your chance of getting an affirmative due to the incompetence of said broadcaster is slightly less than the chances of Jacques Chirac being invited to overnight in the Lincoln bedroom at the White House.

The "issuing authority" for waivers is the local broadcaster. There is no higher authority and no grounds for appeal.

DroptheRemote

09-07-04, 10:30 AM

OK -- here's some good news.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=443250

Toeside

09-07-04, 10:31 AM

Originally posted by DroptheRemote
Toeside,

As someone who's been down the "waiver request" path in the past, I'd say your chance of getting an affirmative due to the incompetence of said broadcaster is slightly less than the chances of Jacques Chirac being invited to overnight in the Lincoln bedroom at the White House.

The "issuing authority" for waivers is the local broadcaster. There is no higher authority and no grounds for appeal.

yeah, I know. It's an empty threat. But you know, as the other networks add more shows that I like, that leaves less time to watch KSDK. I only wish I didn't like some of the NBC shows, then it would be a "moo point".

I just emailed Lynn Beall. We'll see if I even get a response.

So what do you think the problem is for Hawaii? Some markets are reporting 5.1 sound for it, while my receiver is showing 2.0. I'm pretty sure the Olympics were in 5.1.

My guess is that NBC is sending 5.1 and KSDK is broadcasting 2.0 without downmixing. My guess is they could press one of two magical buttons: "Broadcast 5.1" or "Downmix Audio".

Of course, that's just my simplistic opinion. If it was that easy, I wouldn't have recorded 4 airings of Hawaii without audio!

Craig

oby

09-07-04, 10:33 AM

Yes--I just read the press release about ESPN HD2, to start in January of 2005.

Just add it to the Charter HD channel "wish" list, which is becoming larger and larger.

dweebe

09-07-04, 10:54 AM

Looks like an admin went through and renamed all the major city HD threads. It also looks like St. Louis was one of the few to get a monthly thread. Way to go STL!

MSloss

09-07-04, 11:11 AM

Originally posted by Toeside
lbeall@ksdk.gannett.com

I haven't emailed Lynn yet, but I did call and left a message with Programming. I doubt I'll get a call back.

Who wants to email Lynn with me? Should we be nice, or appauled? I doubt it matters much, with 4 failed broadcasts at this point...

Craig

I emailed Michael Tamme at KSDK this morning and already got this reply:

Thank you for your email concerning the audio on the Hawaii HD transmission. At this time, we are taking the stereo audio feed of this program on our HD channel. The stereo feed that we are getting from NBC must not be mixed properly. I have seen anecdotal evidence of this in the number of complaints across the country I have read, although I do not have confirmation from NBC yet.

We will get this corrected so that you may enjoy this new NBC program.

Thank you for your email. If there are any questions, please let me know. And thank you for selecting KSDK, NewsChannel 5, as your source for news, information, and entertainment.

Sincerely,

Mike Tamme

F. Michael Tamme
Director of Technology
KSDK
1000 Market Street
Saint Louis, MO 63101
314-444-5219 office
314-444-5190 fax
mtamme@ksdk.gannett.com

wilkemp

09-07-04, 11:20 AM

Now I know that TitanTv is not always correct, with that said, It lists for Sundays games Rams vs Cardinals, also @ noon CBS game which is tagged to be in HD and fox 3pm game HD, Rams and Cardinals not listed as being shown in HD.

Dave_STLMO

09-07-04, 11:26 AM

Good morning St. Louis...

First time post in the local forum. I just got my antenna up for local HD, and have it hooked to a LSS-3200A. I am also using a Z2 projector.

Other that noticing a vast range of quality whith regard to HD signals (Last nite's Hawaii vs. Jay Leno), I am extremely impressed.

I really just have 1 question... Is anyone gettting the local channels' Guide information. I receive 2-1, 4-1, 5-1 and 30-1 all extremely well. (Signal strength is rated between normal and good... there are no numeric values for OTA stations.) However, the guide on my 3200A simply says "Regular programming". Can it be that none of the stations are broadcasting that info, or is something maybe wrong with my setup??

It is not a deal killer, I was just wondering.

Thanks for all the information I have taken already from this forum!!!

Best
Dave

Crash_Corrigan

09-07-04, 11:32 AM

As of yesterday, the Rams vs. the Cardinals was not showing up on the temporary NFL Sunday Ticket HD Channels on Directv for this Sunday. I wouldn't be surprised if the game wasn't in HD. The Cardinals are hardly a big draw, even if the Rams are playing them.

It looks like the Rams vs. Atlanta on 9/19 is going to be in HD

DroptheRemote

09-07-04, 11:33 AM

wilkemp,

I'd agree that TitanTV isn't completely reliable in terms of indicating which shows are in HD and which aren't. Based on what I've seen over a number of months, it looks like their HD "tagging" is applied to the show overall, not a particular episode. As a result, syndicated re-runs of some shows that originally appeared in HD also are indicated for HD when they aren't.

Also, I suspect that it will take TitanTV a while to get up to speed on the changes in FOX HD programming.

FWIW, TitanTV is starting a new HD-only listings service later this month (http://www.checkhd.com/) and HDTV Magazine is converting it's HTML email-distributed program guide to a online grid listing. The HDTV Magazine grid is in beta now and it will require a subscription.

Nothing to evaluate on the CheckHD side, but the HDTV Magazine guide looks very promising, including program details as you "mouseover" each listed program.

Toeside

09-07-04, 11:38 AM

Originally posted by MSloss
I emailed Michael Tamme at KSDK this morning and already got this reply:

Thank you for your email concerning the audio on the Hawaii HD transmission. At this time, we are taking the stereo audio feed of this program on our HD channel. The stereo feed that we are getting from NBC must not be mixed properly. I have seen anecdotal evidence of this in the number of complaints across the country I have read, although I do not have confirmation from NBC yet.

We will get this corrected so that you may enjoy this new NBC program.

Thank you for your email. If there are any questions, please let me know. And thank you for selecting KSDK, NewsChannel 5, as your source for news, information, and entertainment.

Sincerely,

Mike Tamme

F. Michael Tamme
Director of Technology
KSDK
1000 Market Street
Saint Louis, MO 63101
314-444-5219 office
314-444-5190 fax
mtamme@ksdk.gannett.com

That's great that he responded so quickly. But why take the stereo feed? They are capably of 5.1 as the Olympics proved, so why not use it?

Craig

jedi35

09-07-04, 12:14 PM

Perhaps what Mike meant was that KSDK is taking the stereo feed for Hawaii because the 5.1 signal is not mixed properly from the source. Just guessing.

Good news. Voom continues to impress me with its innovation and readiness to add popular channels. I turned on the receiver this morning and got a message that the SciFi Channel is now available on ch. 523(in SD, not HD). Wow. This channel really is not too bad on my Charter HD box, but it looks even better on Voom. This is great because some of the Voom SD channels don't look that good. I'm posting this because some of you noted in the past that you might consider getting Voom if they added the SciFi channel. Well, it's here!!

dnewman3131

09-07-04, 04:40 PM

Can anyone help me with this?

I have Dish Network HDTV reciever and I am in Arnold. I want to get the Monday Night Football HDTV broadcasts as well as other local HDTV signals.
What do I need to buy for this to work properly? Any one who is in Arnold that has this setup already?

Thanks in advance,
Dave

jedi35

09-07-04, 05:09 PM

Dave, I think you're out of luck with the satellite receiver that you have. You need to buyan OTA(over the air) hdtv tuner and an antenna(rooftop or indoor) in order to receive and view local hd signals. You're probably looking at something starting in the $3-400 range brand new, maybe less if used. Check out the HT Marketplace on this site.

DroptheRemote

09-07-04, 05:44 PM

Dave, which DISH HDTV receiver do you have? Some of these include OTA tuners, meaning that you'd only need to add an indoor, attic or rooftop antenna.

I think the first two generations of the DISH HD receivers omitted the OTA tuner, or made them an optional module. I'm actually more familiar with DirecTV, but I think the most recent DISH HD boxes do include the OTA tuner as a standard feature.

Hopefully a second box won 't be necessary, but if it is jedi is correct about the potential cost.

ferl

09-07-04, 08:10 PM

Originally posted by dnewman3131
Can anyone help me with this?

I have Dish Network HDTV reciever and I am in Arnold. I want to get the Monday Night Football HDTV broadcasts as well as other local HDTV signals.
What do I need to buy for this to work properly? Any one who is in Arnold that has this setup already?

Thanks in advance,
Dave

Dave, I have the dish 811 HD and it has an input for an external antenna for the local OTA HD. Funny thing is that 3 weeks ago I bought an OTA tuner (Samsung 351) and a radio shack UHF antenna. I then got fed up with Charter and went to dish and the tuner is included with the 811. FYI, all the locals came in great with the $25.00 antenna in my attic. All except UPN that is. UPN was signal strength was marginal but I'm in Illinois. If you need a tuner PM me and I may part with the one I just bought.

jedi35

09-07-04, 08:20 PM

ferl,

Interesting that you can get a UPN signal in IL, and I'm in STL north county and have yet to see any kind of signal for this channel. I am assuming that you are talking about the digital UPN channel.

ferl

09-07-04, 08:30 PM

Originally posted by jedi35
ferl,

Interesting that you can get a UPN signal in IL, and I'm in STL north county and have yet to see any kind of signal for this channel. I am assuming that you are talking about the digital UPN channel.

Yes digital UPN. The Samsung tuner was better at picking up UPN than the Dish 811 tuner. With the Samsung it measured signal strength with bars. UPN brought in 4 or 5 bars and the other channels were 7 or 8 bars. It did receive UPN but the picture would get blocky occasionally. The dish 811 tuner using the same antenna brings in UPN with 46% signal strength and sometimes can't get a lock. I have the second dish that picks up 61.5 for UPN now. Since it's not HD it doesn't really matter.

JDKH

09-07-04, 09:06 PM

I am in Maryville IL and get UPN at about 65%, which makes it watchable most of the time.

Robert Simandl

09-08-04, 01:01 AM

46-1 isn't HD but it at least is a lot sharper and clearer than analog 46. And unlike analog 46, 46-1 has stereo sound.

Also, I don't know if 46-1 boosted their signal, or if my HD Tivo got a firmware update or something I didn't know about, but that constant pixellation/macroblocking on 46-1 I bitched about a few weeks back seems to be gone.

Hey Dnewman, you say you have a Dish HD receiver. Is it the model 811 or the older model 6000? If it's the 811, all you need to do is get a plain ol' UHF antenna and connect it to the antenna jack on the 811. If it's the 6000, you might need to call Dish Network and order their OTA tuner card. It's about $150 and can be fitted into the 6000 like a modem into your PC. Then connect an antenna to the tuner card.

DroptheRemote

09-08-04, 02:39 AM

I'm in Fairview Heights and I get WRBU perfectly, 100% of the time.

Ah, the irony.

I don't think the issue with WRBU is signal strength, but rather directionality. If you're too far off-axis, your antenna is going to be less successful in capturing the signal. I think the primary issue with WRBU is the fact that its tower is located further south and to the west than all of the other local transmitters.

Toeside

09-08-04, 03:01 PM

FYI,

I received an email fro Mike Tamme in response to my email to Lynn Beall. They have resolved the audio issue with Hawaii, so the next episode should be in HD with 2.0 sound w/dialog. They are having issues with passing 5.1 which they are hoping to have resolved in the next week.

They are also working on getting the "switch flipped" correctly. That simply sounded like a training issue, with operations not knowing when an HD show was being aired.

I invited him to come here, and warned that there haven't been such nice things about KSDK lately, due to the issues with Hawaii and Father of the Pride, plus the late switch/early switch issues.

Hopefully he joins. It'll be a fast way to pass on concerns and hear their responses.

Craig

tcfila

09-08-04, 03:47 PM

Off Topic......I was having a VOD issue with Charter last weekend and was wondering if anyone else has had it. I was watching Curb Your Enthusiasm Episode 26 I believe and something strange happened. The picture would pixelate then another program would come on for a second or two. It started as a cartoon coming in, then it was Hardcore Porn. Not just T and A but some heavy duty porn. I thought it just might be another signal bleeding or something but when you rewind and play it does the same scene at the same time.

Was just wondering if anyone else experienced it.

Tim

Toeside

09-08-04, 04:03 PM

Originally posted by tcfila
Off Topic......I was having a VOD issue with Charter last weekend and was wondering if anyone else has had it. I was watching Curb Your Enthusiasm Episode 26 I believe and something strange happened. The picture would pixelate then another program would come on for a second or two. It started as a cartoon coming in, then it was Hardcore Porn. Not just T and A but some heavy duty porn. I thought it just might be another signal bleeding or something but when you rewind and play it does the same scene at the same time.

Was just wondering if anyone else experienced it.

Tim

Whoa! Kinda reminds me of the Friends Episode with the free porn (probably called "The one with the free porn").

Not too funny if kids are in the room. :(

Craig

MSloss

09-08-04, 04:10 PM

Originally posted by Toeside
FYI,

I received an email fro Mike Tamme in response to my email to Lynn Beall. They have resolved the audio issue with Hawaii, so the next episode should be in HD with 2.0 sound w/dialog. They are having issues with passing 5.1 which they are hoping to have resolved in the next week.
Craig

Interesting since I noticed the 5.1 blue light was on last night for Father of the Pride and even non-HD Scrubs. I will be relying on the HD Tivo recording Hawaii tonight, so we'll see.

Mike

Toeside

09-08-04, 04:23 PM

Originally posted by MSloss
Interesting since I noticed the 5.1 blue light was on last night for Father of the Pride and even non-HD Scrubs. I will be relying on the HD Tivo recording Hawaii tonight, so we'll see.

Mike

Interesting. I haven't watched either of those yet. I'll check them out tonight.

Maybe they were working on something yesterday. Who knows.

Craig

tcfila

09-08-04, 04:39 PM

Originally posted by Toeside
Whoa! Kinda reminds me of the Friends Episode with the free porn (probably called "The one with the free porn").

Not too funny if kids are in the room. :(

Craig

When it first started and the cartoons came I thought about how cool that would be, then the kids came in!

DroptheRemote

09-08-04, 04:55 PM

tcfila,

Too funny (apart from the kids walking in).

So, I wonder if I get Charter VOD and tune to Curb Your Enthusiasm Episode 26...nah!

DroptheRemote

09-08-04, 06:28 PM

The following comes from today's MarketClose from mediabiz.com:

TOP STORY - This afternoon, DirecTV unveiled a plan to launch four more satellites that will help with the delivery of local and national high- def programming and other advanced services. The satellite TV company said the satellites will have enough capacity for thousands of local HD channels. Details in Thursday's SkyREPORT.

Adding a link to the BusinessWire press release found on the HDTV Programming Forum:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=443890

dweebe

09-08-04, 06:31 PM

Has anyone heard any more about this weekend's Rams/Big Red game not being in HD? (as discussed earlier in this thread) I'm going to the game so it's not an issue personally, but was wanting to keep some friends informed.

BTW: "Scrubs" is not in HD becuase it's filmed using 16mm cameras. Probably the only network show shot that way.

DroptheRemote

09-08-04, 06:47 PM

Just some thoughts on the DirecTV capacity announcement:

* I wonder how this development will influence the ongoing negotiations between cable companies and broadcasters seeking payment for making local HD stations available. I'm not sure that this tilts the playing field markedly in either direction, but it seems like it ought to change the current dynamic, which seems fairly stagnant.

* If this sort of thing doesn't light a fire under cable television laggards (such as Charter), then nothing probably will.

Of course, I'm come to pretty much expect that in the case of our local monopolist, there's likely more smoke in store before there's any sign of a fire. But it does seem cause for at least some hope for forward movement.

comp1040

09-08-04, 07:22 PM

I noticed that last night that Scrubs was showing 5.1 and at this
moment the KSDK 6 o'clock news is showing 5.1 on my receiver
and the charter guide shows it when you switch to the channel.
However, they are still having some breakups in the sound on the
news and even commercials.

Recording Hawaii OTA tonight so I hope they have the bugs out.

Robert Simandl

09-08-04, 08:12 PM

Hey Doug,

I doubt the DirecTV capacity announcement will have much if any effect on the Charter/KDNL negotiations... simply because I'd expect Sinclair Broadcasting to be just as buttheaded with DirecTV as they are with Charter concerning carriage of the 30-1 signal. :(

DroptheRemote

09-09-04, 08:20 AM

Robert,

I suspect that your view on this is correct, but as there's been so little apparent progress on these negotiations it seems like it ought to at least cause some re-evaluation of their respective positions.

I'm not sure if it was here or somewhere else, but I read recently that Sinclair was now actively promoting HD programming on some of the stations it owns, which seems ironic both for the fact that it singlehandedly nearly killed HD at birth (attacking the viability of the 8-VSB technology for OTA broadcasts) and the fact that its negotiating position for cable access is the number one factor in limiting the viewership for its own digital/HD stations.

One thing is pretty certain, though. DirecTV's expansion seems primarily designed to put it into the best possible position to compete with cable over the long haul. Where I always believed that cable would have an inherent bandwidth advantage as HD became the norm, I don't think that will be the case now, at least if DirecTV executes against its plan.

If (and I know that's a HUGE two-letter word) cable companies were going to respond to this and try to pre-empt the loss of their current technological edge, they probably only have a year to 18 months to do so. Based on the loping pace for things like Charter's rollout of HD and MOXI, that seems highly improbable.

While DirecTV's own record for quick action isn't exactly stellar, I think for anyone who's currently weighing up the pros and cons of a Charter vs. DirecTV decision, this annoucement should be at least a plus in the DirecTV column.

DroptheRemote

09-09-04, 08:27 AM

The following is the follow-up story from SkyREPORT E-News on DirecTV's satellite expansion announcement.
__________________________________

Tons of Local HD in DirecTV's Future, Thanks to New Birds

On Wednesday, DirecTV announced plans for the launch of four next-generation satellites the company said will help with the launch of thousands of local HD channels as well as more national high-def programming and capacity for new interactive and standard-definition content.

The first two satellites, Spaceway 1 and Spaceway 2, will launch in 2005 and will deliver programming to consumers by the middle of the year. The Ka-Band satellites will have capacity for more than 500 local HD channels, the company said.

DirecTV said with the satellites it will have the ability to bring local HD programming to most of the U.S. population as well as help with the continuing expansion of local TV in standard-definition and other enhancements. The satellites were recently converted to allow for the offering of both video and broadband Internet, DirecTV said.

SpaceWay was initially designed as a broadband offering for enterprise users.

Two other Ka-Band satellites, DirecTV 10 and DirecTV 11, will launch in early 2007, the company said. These satellites will have capacity for more than 1,000 additional local HD channels, more than 150 national HD channels, and other new programming offerings.

DirecTV said consumers will receive the expanded services as well as existing programming with a single dish.

"We have led the TV industry in choice, quality and service and we are now positioned to lead the industry in bringing new advanced television programming to consumers nationwide," said Chase Carey, president and CEO of the DirecTV Group. "Only DirecTV, not cable or other competitors, will have the capability to bring hundreds of high-definition channels and other enhancements to consumers across the entire country with the consistency, reliability and quality that they demand and deserve."

Boeing is building the satellites. Spaceway 1 and Spaceway 2 are nearing completion, DirecTV said. Boeing is constructing a third Spaceway satellite, and will also build a satellite that will serve as a ground spare.
__________________________________

Toeside

09-09-04, 10:18 AM

Single dish? With a total of 7 satellites? How will they do it? My Phase 3 can grab the current 3 DirecTV birds, but it seams that the 101-119 locations could get crowded if 4 additional satellites are added to that area.

Of course, I have no idea what i'm really talking about. Maybe there's room.

Craig

wmschultz

09-09-04, 11:12 AM

Originally posted by Dave Beebe
Has anyone heard any more about this weekend's Rams/Big Red game not being in HD? (as discussed earlier in this thread) I'm going to the game so it's not an issue personally, but was wanting to keep some friends informed.

BTW: "Scrubs" is not in HD becuase it's filmed using 16mm cameras. Probably the only network show shot that way.

I know there has been talk in the forum about the game not being in HD, but DirecTV's website http://www.directvsports.com/Subscriptions/NFLSundayTicket/Schedule/ shows that the game is in channel 92. My Tivo Guide doesn't show it as being in HD though.:confused:

RaceTripper

09-09-04, 12:35 PM

Channel 92 is the HD channel for the subscription package NFL Ticket, for which you have to pay (a lot).

wmschultz

09-09-04, 01:35 PM

Originally posted by dwette
Channel 92 is the HD channel for the subscription package NFL Ticket, for which you have to pay (a lot).

I know. I get the NFL Sunday Ticket, and it has HD games listed as TEAM A vs Team B - HD.

What I am saying is that channel 92 isn't saying that for the Rams' game.

wilkemp

09-09-04, 02:00 PM

Read a couple of post from the programming section and it does appear that the Rams game will not be in HD, but in 4:3 SD since 480p is now gone from FOX

abcward

09-09-04, 02:07 PM

no HD for NFL game this week? Damn that sucks...

rcman2

09-09-04, 04:31 PM

1 HD channel and 3 subchannels!!!!

Yikes:(

dweebe

09-09-04, 05:07 PM

Originally posted by wilkemp
Read a couple of post from the programming section and it does appear that the Rams game will not be in HD, but in 4:3 SD since 480p is now gone from FOX

Hopefully that will be the one time we get screwed this season and get no HD Rams from Fox.

Drove by the Dome this afternoon and no production trucks were there yet. Figured they would have been here if they were doing HD so they could work the kinks out before Sunday.

Glad I've got tickets to the game.:D

hall316

09-09-04, 05:20 PM

Where is the best place in St. Louis to get the to Channel Master recommended antenna's?

Also I was just told that Charter's HD/DVR combo will be ready by the end of the month. If that is true, I'm dumping Directv and going with this until either Voom offers a DVR or Directv adds more channels.

dweebe

09-09-04, 05:22 PM

Just looked around a couple of threads over at the Programming forum and found this in that 50+ page Fox HD thread:

Originally posted by FOX guy
ok here is the official word on FOX games in HD.
-Detroit@Chicago
-Seattle@NewOrleans
-TampaBay@Washington
-Dallas@ Minnesota
-NYGiants@Philly
-Atlanta@SanFrancisco

Sorry Sports Fans Arizona@StLouis is SD ONLY

DroptheRemote

09-09-04, 06:01 PM

hall,

For the ChannelMaster, I suggest that you call and see if you can order one by phone from Skywalker Communications (+1 636 272-8025). They will deliver via UPS or FedEx Ground (can't remember which) but you can also pick it up in person. They are in O'Fallon, MO.

Strictly speaking Skywalker only sell wholesale, but there is scope for finessing that -- and the lower cost makes that effort worthwhile.

If you don't have any luck with Skywalker, I think you're probably best off by going online and finding it. I don't have any recommended online retailers to suggest, but maybe others will make some suggestions.

As for Charter and MOXI...(ahem)

Not sure how much experience you have with HD and/or Charter, but I'd suggest that you definitely wait until you have the Moxi box in your hands and that it's working to your satisfaction before canceling DirecTV. No doubt Charter will deliver this sometime "real soon now," but experience shows that dates given out by CSRs or others at the company don't mean much at all in the scheme of things.

Welcome to the thread.

hall316

09-09-04, 06:09 PM

Yes, I didn't plan on cancelling until I could try the HD/DVR first. My problem right now is I have 2 Directivo's and I am constantly getting seraching for satelite on one of the two inputs. I think I might have a bad lnb(I think that's the right thing). My friend has Voom and wow what a picture you get with it. I've been thinking about going with them and hope thier dvr comes out soon. I messed up and got my wife hooked on the Tivo portion of my Directivos and she doesn't want to give that up. I have cable in my house so I can always buy a tivo and hook it up to that as shw only records channels that I would get with that anyway, but then I have to buy a Tivo which is more money to be spent. I refuse to pay $1000 for a HD Directivo. I don't really need to record anything in HD, but the wife wants to keep the Tivo.

Basically I don't know what I want to do. I have a ota HD reciever, but I need an antenna on my roof. I bout the Silver whatever one that was recommended that sits on the reciever, but I got nothing. I am at most 17 miles from the towers I think. I could just buy an antenna and hook that up and get a new dish, but I'd rather have more than just my locals in HD.

MSloss

09-09-04, 06:55 PM

Originally posted by hall316
Where is the best place in St. Louis to get the to Channel Master recommended antenna's?

Also I was just told that Charter's HD/DVR combo will be ready by the end of the month. If that is true, I'm dumping Directv and going with this until either Voom offers a DVR or Directv adds more channels.

I got mine at Lowe's. They had 3 different yagi models, and I think I got the middle one which was the largest I could maneuver into the attic.
Note- it is VHF & UHF, which I wanted to feed the TV's in the house w/o a sat. receiver.

Mike

rcman2

09-09-04, 08:16 PM

Big improvement

grogs

09-09-04, 11:00 PM

New OTA station in St. Louis area.
9.4 <= PBS - KETC-ED - pbsyou.org - 480i

Keep them comming...... It's 480i but hey, another channel to watch.

Greg

Toeside

09-09-04, 11:25 PM

Originally posted by hall316
Yes, I didn't plan on cancelling until I could try the HD/DVR first. My problem right now is I have 2 Directivo's and I am constantly getting seraching for satelite on one of the two inputs. I think I might have a bad lnb(I think that's the right thing). My friend has Voom and wow what a picture you get with it. I've been thinking about going with them and hope thier dvr comes out soon. I messed up and got my wife hooked on the Tivo portion of my Directivos and she doesn't want to give that up. I have cable in my house so I can always buy a tivo and hook it up to that as shw only records channels that I would get with that anyway, but then I have to buy a Tivo which is more money to be spent. I refuse to pay $1000 for a HD Directivo. I don't really need to record anything in HD, but the wife wants to keep the Tivo.

Basically I don't know what I want to do. I have a ota HD reciever, but I need an antenna on my roof. I bout the Silver whatever one that was recommended that sits on the reciever, but I got nothing. I am at most 17 miles from the towers I think. I could just buy an antenna and hook that up and get a new dish, but I'd rather have more than just my locals in HD.

Funny, when I told my wife we were dumping DishNetwork to get DirecTV because of TiVo she said it wasn't worth it. That was 2 1/2 years ago. Earlier this year, we were discussing getting an HDTV and she asked when the HD version of the TiVo would be out. She wanted HD, but didn't want to give up TiVo.

FWIW, I bought mine for $850. That's still a lot, but I really believe prices will drop soon. Stores are starting to actually have them in inventory.

I'm sure you've heard it before, but if you are a TiVo luser, I doubt you'll be happy with anything else. Just because something records digitally, doesn't make it as user friendly as TiVo. :)

Craig

Kurt K

09-09-04, 11:27 PM

I know it's yesterday's news, but was anybody else seeing/hearing lipsynch problems during Hawaii last night? I'm not sure if it was for the duration of the show.

As for the Rams game not being in HD, that truely is disappointing. :(

hall316

09-09-04, 11:41 PM

I think what I've decided t do was just add a HD Directv reciever to my current set up. That way the wife can watch whatever she wants and tape whatever she wants through the Directivo and I can enjoy the HD through Directv. I don't need to record anything in HD. Once prices come down I can upgrade then.

DroptheRemote

09-10-04, 07:52 AM

Originally posted by grogs
New OTA station in St. Louis area.
9.4 <= PBS - KETC-ED - pbsyou.org - 480i

Keep them comming...... It's 480i but hey, another channel to watch.

Greg
It's just my opinion, but I truly HATE to see the addition of a third PBS subchannel applauded.

KETC's HD channel was already very soft-looking with two subchannels, and now they've inexplicably made things even worse by adding a third. I tried watching a bit of PBS-HD last night and it looks wretched.

I think PBS's multicasting policy is reckless and the example they're setting for other broadcasters is one that I think we're going to regret. The last thing we need is for our tax-funded, public broadcaster to be providing a tutorial for the rest of the industry on how to cram 10 pounds of crap into a 5-pound bag.

What's the point of owning cutting-edge technology if the product it displays sucks?

DroptheRemote

09-10-04, 07:58 AM

Originally posted by rcman2
Big improvement

The new FOX logo is smaller (a good thing) but it also seems pretty opaque, with quite a large portion of it being full-on white (a very bad thing).

If I owned a plasma and was planning to watch a lot of football, I'd definitely be concerned about burn-in in the lower right corner.

In fact, I'd urge anyone with a CRT or plasma set who's expecting to watch a lot of football on KTVI (FOX) to make sure you've got contrast down to a reasonable level, if you haven't already done that.

turls

09-10-04, 10:41 AM

There are supposedly truck availability issues that will be resolved as the year goes on. In CBS's case, they only end up with 1 national HD game this week, but are supposed to have their full slate of 3 by week 2.

Remember, at least with Fox most games will be HD, if you are an AFC fan it is hit and miss with only about half the games a week in HD.

Originally posted by Dave Beebe
Hopefully that will be the one time we get screwed this season and get no HD Rams from Fox.

dweebe

09-10-04, 10:53 AM

Originally posted by turls
There are supposedly truck availability issues that will be resolved as the year goes on. In CBS's case, they only end up with 1 national HD game this week, but are supposed to have their full slate of 3 by week 2.

I would assume that some of their HD equipment that would have been used for a football game this weekend is currently at the US Open Tennis Tournament.

BTW: in another thread moderator CPanther95 praised us here in St. Louis for keeping our monthly HDTV info neat and orderly and will permit us to keep the monthly threads.

StLouG

09-10-04, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by Dave Beebe
BTW: in another thread moderator CPanther95 praised us here in St. Louis for keeping our monthly HDTV info neat and orderly

My wife would never believe this! "Neat and Orderly" :)

hall316

09-10-04, 03:06 PM

I went out to Skywalker as suggested. They charged me $36.99 plus tax for the ChannelMaster CM4221. I didn't realize until I just got back the the first page on here says retail is $25. Now I feel a bit screwed.

Anyway, going to try and hook it up this weekend and see if I can pick up anything with my ota HDTV receiver.

fireshoes

09-10-04, 03:18 PM

Well yeah, $25 for the antenna, and $11.99 for Doug's referal fee. :-D

I picked up a Silver Sensor at Sears yesterday for about $35. Best Buy didn't have any. I haven't got it fine tuned to get all the stations at once yet, but I've been able to get a signal strength of 100 on ABC, CBS, and NBC, and 90's for FOX. Hardly a peep from UPN or PBS, and in the 50's for WB, so far. Overall I'm pretty happy for it just being an indoor antenna.

I thought the football game looked okay last night, a bit on the soft side, but it was definitely way better than the SD feed I would have got back in Des Moines!

rcman2

09-10-04, 04:46 PM

Originally posted by DroptheRemote
The new FOX logo is smaller (a good thing) but it also seems pretty opaque, with quite a large portion of it being full-on white (a very bad thing).

If I owned a plasma and was planning to watch a lot of football, I'd definitely be concerned about burn-in in the lower right corner.

In fact, I'd urge anyone with a CRT or plasma set who's expecting to watch a lot of football on KTVI (FOX) to make sure you've got contrast down to a reasonable level, if you haven't already done that.

I think they are going to change it. The splicer was online from 7-8 in 4:3 w/bug. 8-8:30, 14:9 stretch with their big protruding bug at the top. At 8:30 the splicer was back w/out any bug. It looks like they may be moving the location and/or changing to a more transparent one. Then again I could be very off base on this. :D

DroptheRemote

09-10-04, 05:07 PM

Originally posted by fireshoes
Well yeah, $25 for the antenna, and $11.99 for Doug's referal fee. :-D

If only... :p

hall,

I just checked my Skywalker catalog and it shows the CM-4221 at $19.99 in quantities of one and $18.79 in quantities of 10 or more. My catalog is dated Summer 2003, but it's hard to believe that prices for antennae have gone up that much in a year.

Then again, maybe that's a result of growing demand.

Sorry if I inadvertently misled you. I'll try to update this portion of the sticky thread before October rolls around.

DroptheRemote

09-10-04, 05:09 PM

rcman2,

Hope you're right that the current bug is just transitional.

rcman2

09-10-04, 05:15 PM

I do too or my RPTV is in trouble. I watch FOX more than any network.

alsat

09-10-04, 05:52 PM

Doug:

4221 is same as you quoted wholesale. I believe Skywalker does sell to the public, with a markup.

Al

hall316

09-10-04, 10:28 PM

Ya, I'm sure it was a markup, but I didn't relaize how much of a markup it was. I also asked if everything came with it to mount it. Well I figured there would be some sort of a short poll that would come with it and I was wrong. I should have just ordered online and had it shipped but that's what I get for wanting it now. Nice people, but I think the markup is a little high considering they didn't have to ship it anywhere and I had to drive 30 mins each way. Oh well, after I go get a little extension poll and installed tomorrow I think I will not care as much if I get a good HD picture on my tv.

jedi35

09-11-04, 04:37 PM

I know I'm crazy, but I'm actually pulling in the US Open on 3 different hd boxes, 4 different ways, and thought that some of you might be intersted in how each box is/was performing.

Voom via BravoHD+
--good hd picture, maybe a little on the soft side, visible motion artifacts if you look for them, but not too bad, awful clicking noise in the sound, which was not 5.1 BTW, audio sync problems, and the sound levels were down too low for the tennis playing and shot way up(back to normal) for commercials, no problems with the signal cutting in and out due to air traffic(I'm next to the airport)

Voom OTA
--much better, sharper hd picture, strangely had more visible blocking and motion artifacts, great 5.1 sound, perhaps the best, no audio level changes, clicking or sync problems, trouble with keeping the signal locked in due to air traffic

Sammy T165 OTA
--perhaps the best hd signal of all, great 5.1 sound, no audio level changes, clicking or sync problems, trouble with keeping the signal locked in due to air traffic, but not as bad as Voom OTA

Charter hd box(6200)
--softer hd picture, but better than BravoHD+, not as good as Voom OTA, good 5.1 sound, no other audio problems, signal locked in with no breaks(this is the signal that I recorded, along with BravoHD+ earlier in the week)

So the ranking for hd picture is:
1. Sammy T165
2. Voom OTA(best 5.1 sound)
3. Charter hd
4. BravoHD+(lowest quality picture and terrible sound)