Did I miss something? What happened?


Don't even ask.......Uugh. Let's just hope it is over.

Maybe the HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray is Solved?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/ptech/09/26/dvd.formats.reut/index.html

What about an HDMI splitter?

http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=2514

Don't know if it's worth the $200+ price tag. However, over HDMI you could just run one cable into your television (or reciever if your lucky enough to have HDMI on it.) Then you could run the sound from the television to the receiver.

Dueces - Is the plan to run the same type of cable to each destination, or were you planning on running component to one and HDMI to the other?


Wow $299 seems pretty steep for something that I previously took for granted since my 942 will do it. Currently the receiver is in the basement and HDMI goes to basement TV. Then component video goes to bedroom on the main floor. I wanted to just add the 622 and have the ability to watch either receiver on either TV. This was gonna add more recording space obviously, but also more HD recording opportunities. Currently with no HD LiL we can only record one HD Local show at a time. With the 622 and 942, I would be able to record 4 HD Locals. Not that I would need that many, but more than 1 will be great.

I don't want to sacrifice one TV over the other either.

I was just told by someone on a satellite guys forum that he is doing the same thing with his 622 that I am with my 942. So it sounds like I have no problem if he is right. kdg where had you heard they could not both be live at the same time?

I was just told by someone on a satellite guys forum that he is doing the same thing with his 622 that I am with my 942. So it sounds like I have no problem if he is right. kdg where had you heard they could not both be live at the same time?

deuces -

I'd be interested to know how this all works out in the end.

I was just told by someone on a satellite guys forum that he is doing the same thing with his 622 that I am with my 942. So it sounds like I have no problem if he is right. kdg where had you heard they could not both be live at the same time?
He didn't understand your question, or is mistaken. HD can be viewed down-converted to a second TV using the SD outputs.

"HDTV/SDTV VIP622
Delivers high-definition and standard-definition programming:
High-definition content can be viewed using HD outputs, or HD content is automatically down-converted for viewing using SD outputs.
Standard-definition can be viewed using SD outputs, or SD content is automatically upconverted for viewing using HD outputs.
Both HD outputs are not active at one time."

http://rweb.echostar.com/departmental_content/TechPortal/content/tech/receiver/622.shtml

They are on the 942, but are not on the 921, 622, or 211. If you want the 622 to provide HD to 2 TV's, you have to split either the component or HDMI output, and the same has to input to both TV's.

EDIT: I forgot to mention, I tried this on my first 622. My Dell LCDHD has both HDMI and Component. I had the component connected to the Sony RPTV and HDMI connected to the Dell. The first one turned on, got the HD output, the second got a blank screen. I then reversed them...same result.

I sent a quick query to the Blues:

-----Original Message-----
From: kdg454
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 11:06 PM
To: PR@stlblues.com
Subject: HD

Is there any schedule which shows which Blues games will be televised in HD, either on FSNMW or CW11?

----- Original Message -----
From: PrIntern@stlblues.com
To: kdg454
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 10:54 AM
Subject: RE: HD

Ken,
We are still deciding on which games will be in HD this season. We are not sure which ones yet. Stay tuned to stlblues.com for further details. Have a good day.

Digital stations have been required to be at full power for several years now. For some time early on in the transition they were able to request an FCC waiver to remain below full power. But I think that waivers are only now being granted to stations in the smallest of the small markets, where the cost of running two transmitters is a genuine burden.

I don't believe that you can do an apples-to-apples comparison of power/coverage between VHF and UHF. My understanding is that a station will get better coverage on UHF than they would with VHF at the same power. But I'm REALLY not an expert on this. Maybe Jim (WRacer) or other more well-versed participants here can provide more authoritative info on this particular topic.

You are correct..you can't compare analog and digital power levels. The max authorized for some UHF analog stations is 5 million watts, but for digital it's 1 million. Lower power digital stations get out amazingly well in flat terrane. It's multipath that hurts the digital signal.
Jim

dweebe, thanks for the U-verse update.

Jim, thanks for the word on a possible rollout date...does the test signal indicate that AT&T and Sinclair have agreed to terms on money?

Yes it does....but still no deal with Charter.

DirecTV, Intel Nearing Release of Viiv-based Product

The following story excerpt is from CNET:
___________________________________________

Intel and DirecTV are getting ready to release their first joint product, a new set-top box with Intel's Viiv home media technology, the companies announced Tuesday at the Intel Developer Forum here.

First announced at CES in January, the set-top box comes with hardware and software that lets television watchers access Internet-based content when connected to a Viiv PC. The DirecTV Plus HD DVR will be available to subscribers in the fourth quarter, and a software download needed to make everything work is supposed to be available in December from the satellite provider.
___________________________________________

To read the full story, click here. (http://news.com.com/DirecTVs+Viiv+box+almost+ready+for+prime+time/2100-1041-6119790.html?part=dht&tag=nl.e433)

Jim,

Thanks for the follow-up info on U-Verse and digital/analog power levels.

Umm...I don't really want to start another argument, but I was wondering at this point in time, is it worth it to switch from Charter to a sat like Dish or DirectTV? I don't have any issues with Charter and I apparently have the only working Moxi box in the metro east. It seems to me that a)There isn't the biggest world of difference in prices and b) This whole "HD' thing is still "new" and no company really has together 100% yet.

I have Charter too, and my Moxi works fine. Also have Pipeline. One GOOD thing about Charter's BAD customer service is my "3 month introductory free HBO/Cinemax/Starz Pack" and special internet price is still active after a year - they never bothered to turn it off or anything. I'll be moving in December and will probably take the Moxi with me.

Its all relative you know. PPL used to mock the Moxi for its occasional 3 second pauses while bringing up the guide, but that rarely happens to me now after several software updates. It never fails to record anything scheduled. Now all these new sat HD-Tivo's are having major problems -- and if I was a Charter-ite I'd make fun back, but I have no loyalty to any of these companies. I'm just "lucky" my Charter works fine I guess.

Its my honest opinion that EVERY company rolls out hardware too fast to get a fast customer base and then tries to clean up the mess. It just ends up with unhappy people, some of whom (with every carrier) will probably miss the premiere of Lost, and that will be armageddon. Its a sad state of entertainment affairs.

I wish I could live off OTA only, but I mostly despise network programming - save Hockey games. I don't really care about ESPN2-HD, sorry to say. :D

If Charter had ESPN2-HD, I'd have to think long and hard about switching to them.

Two months ago, that's the only thing that kept me from signing up w/ them.

I did hear about the HD DirecTivos getting a software update, but mine still shows version 3.1.5.f.... not the new version 6.3.x. Unless this was some sort of *failed* upgrade attempt that hosed the unit, it's gotta be something else.....

If Charter had ESPN2-HD, I'd have to think long and hard about switching to them.

Two months ago, that's the only thing that kept me from signing up w/ them.

Dish Network has ESPN2HD.

Joe, I would have gone w/ Dish, but line of sight was the problem w/ DirecTV.

By the way, where are the sats that Dish has up? My problem was (but not now) getting the 119 sat from DirecTV. 101 and 110 were easy.

Joe, I would have gone w/ Dish, but line of sight was the problem w/ DirecTV.

By the way, where are the sats that Dish has up? My problem was (but not now) getting the 119 sat from DirecTV. 101 and 110 were easy.


This is from Wikpedia
DISH 1000+ systems which receive DBS signals from both of the primary 110°W and 119°W locations (129°W for DISH 1000+) as well as lower-powered FSS signals from either 121°W, 105°W, or 118.75°W. To underscore how exotic these systems can be the DISH 500+ and 1000+ systems receive circularly-polarized signals in the non-DBS portion of the FSS band — the only service to do so.

I beleive in St. Louis it's 110,119,129 and 121. I'm out of town or I would check my reciever to verify, but I'm sure some one else can verify off the top of their head.

This is from Wikpedia
DISH 1000+ systems which receive DBS signals from both of the primary 110°W and 119°W locations (129°W for DISH 1000+) as well as lower-powered FSS signals from either 121°W, 105°W, or 118.75°W. To underscore how exotic these systems can be the DISH 500+ and 1000+ systems receive circularly-polarized signals in the non-DBS portion of the FSS band — the only service to do so.

I beleive in St. Louis it's 110,119,129 and 121. I'm out of town or I would check my reciever to verify, but I'm sure some one else can verify off the top of their head.


It is 110,118,119 and 129

Winston,
If you cannot see 119°w, you won't be able to use Dish.

Despite New Media, TV Viewing Hours on the Rise

The following story excerpt is from today's SkyREPORT newsletter:
_______________________________________________________

...the TV-monitoring company said during the 2005-2006 television year (ending Sept. 17, 2006), traditional in-home television viewing maintained its numbers with audiences, and even gained ground among some of the more tech-savvy teenagers....

...the total average time a household watched during the TV-year was 8 hours and 14 minutes per day, a 3-minute increase from the previous year. The average amount watched by an individual viewer increased 3 minutes per day to 4 hours and 35 minutes. Both numbers represent new records for TV viewing, Nielsen said.
_______________________________________________________

Full story can be read at www.skyreport.com.

St. Louis Guide to HD Programming Updated

Here's the latest version of the HD channels available in St. Louis via the primary subscription TV services -- Charter, DirecTV and DISH.

The main change here is the addition of The Food Network to DISH. There are also a number of minor updates/additions to the details for some HD channels (average hours of HD programming, formats, etc.).

If anyone has additional details for channel details shown as TBD, drop me a PM and I'll incorporate them into the next update. Likewise, let me know of any apparent errors or omissions.

We Interrupt Your Normal AVS Programming...

...for the following St. Louis housekeeping break:

In the not-so-distant past, we used to begin each month of the St. Louis discussion with an entirely new thread and usually that started with a cut/paste of basic resource information that is now buried back on the very first page of this discussion thread.

Because of its location, a lot of that general, introductory information about HDTV and OTA reception is now easily overlooked, especially with the discussion here stretching back more than 2 years and 400+ pages.

In an attempt to make this information more accessible, I'm going to post an advisory/reminder note similar to this every couple of weeks. Ideally this will make this general resource information more visible and easier to find for more readers.

With HDTV sales increasing every month, we're getting more and more newcomers here, which is a great thing to see. But like most of us when we took home our first HDTV, there's a huge amount to learn beyond where to point the remote and which buttons to push.

So, here's to filling in some of those information gaps...

Tower Maps, Your Satellite/Antenna Rights & Local Station Feedback (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=2995679&&#post2995679)

Using An Antenna to Receive Local HD Stations (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=2995718&&#post2995718)

Common Questions about HDTV (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=2995791&&#post2995791)

HD Programming Available in St. Louis (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8523674&&#post8523674)

Why Isn't KDNL-DT (ABC) Available via Charter? (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8072643&&#post8072643)

New! Cardinals HD Schedule (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7576786&&#post7576786)

And finally, I want to remind everyone -- newcomers and old hands alike -- that you can access the St. Louis HDTV discussion here at AVS directly by using the shortcut URL that has been arranged.

The short-form URL also makes it very easy to remember and give the address to anyone you know who's just getting into HDTV.

The shortcut URL is: www.stlhdtv.info

Doug

I can't download the attachment.....is it me?

Walt

Doug

I can't download the attachment.....is it me?

Walt

Try right clicking on the link and chosse 'save as'

Doug, looks like page 2 is blank ?

Doug,

Either get it right or I'm going to get this thread closed .. :D

Not sure why this is, but some versions of IE have difficulty in directly clicking on PDF links in some bulletin board applications. As Dave suggests, if you right click and "save as," you should be able to retrieve the file.

I think I've fixed the problem with the blank second page (only header and copyright appears). Basically, there's SO MUCH new HD programming in recent months that the first page has reached its capacity limit and I need to think about a redesign. Let me know if it's still a problem.

Good problem to have, no?

Doug,

Either get it right or I'm going to get this thread closed .. :D[Edit: This would-be witty response has been self-censored...] ;)

I wish I could live off OTA only, but I mostly despise network programming - save Hockey games. You become accustomed to it.

Now only if Tivo would make an AFFORDABLE dual-tuner HD-DVR.

:D

Not sure why this is, but some versions of IE have difficulty in directly clicking on PDF links in some bulletin board applications. As Dave suggests, if you right click and "save as," you should be able to retrieve the file.

I think I've fixed the problem with the blank second page (only header and copyright appears). Basically, there's SO MUCH new HD programming in recent months that the first page has reached its capacity limit and I need to think about a redesign. Let me know if it's still a problem.

Good problem to have, no?

Yes, and I think I am going to get some prices for the most service with the most HD that I watch. Problem is, I still can't download the file. "Save as" was my first option but it is grayed out. Do you know what the problem could be with my browser?

I have a 3:15 tee so I need to leave. I will try again this evening an lighten up on the security.

Walt

Yes, and I think I am going to get some prices for the most service with the most HD that I watch. Problem is, I still can't download the file. "Save as" was my first option but it is grayed out. Do you know what the problem could be with my browser?

I have a 3:15 tee so I need to leave. I will try again this evening an lighten up on the security.Walt,

Shoot me your eMail address via private message and I'll send you the PDF.

You become accustomed to it.

Now only if Tivo would make an AFFORDABLE dual-tuner HD-DVR.

:D

No kidding. If that were to happen, I'd buy one, even if it was only for OTA.

However, buying hte Series3 at that price plus the 12.99 a month fee is outrageous for only OTA.

Plus, have you been checking out the problems with cablecos not wanting to give out cable cards for the Series3?

If that persists, I predict the Series3 TiVo is DOA.

Winston,

$12.99/mo to pass OTA through the TiVo?? Is that a fee for the guide, or does it go to TiVo?? Who exactly gets/charges that fee?

No kidding. If that were to happen, I'd buy one, even if it was only for OTA.

However, buying hte Series3 at that price plus the 12.99 a month fee is outrageous for only OTA.

Plus, have you been checking out the problems with cablecos not wanting to give out cable cards for the Series3?

If that persists, I predict the Series3 TiVo is DOA.I will probably pick one up when the price drops, but it better get below $500 for me to do so - not to mention that joke of a service charge. I looked into building an ATSC dual-tuner htpc, but from what I can tell it won't be any cheaper (unfortunately).

If Tivo wanted to, they could have released an OTA-only Series 3 well over a year ago. I think the market for such a dvr is bigger than they think. ;)

Has anyone noticed more signal problems with Channel 4 within the last week or so? I'm in Sunset Hills near 270/21 and have had real signal issues the last week.

mk,

I haven't really watched any CBS shows since Monday evening and it seemed fine for me then. I'll check my Letterman recordings from the past couple of days and let you know if I see any problem there.

kdg I have asked the gentleman to verify what he told me about the 622 and both outputs. I am really bummed that it cannot do this. The HDMI splitter would be my answer of last resort because I would rather not spend $300. If I use that, can anyone tell me how quality will be affected?

Edit: I'm an idiot, the splitter won't work, because neither TV is going to have 2 HDMI inputs right? Any other ideas?

Winston,

$12.99/mo to pass OTA through the TiVo?? Is that a fee for the guide, or does it go to TiVo?? Who exactly gets/charges that fee?

Its a TiVo service fee. Essentially, its the fee that you have to pay per month in order to use the box. It gives you the guide listings and the DVR service.

TiVo is a great service and I love it; probably more than most, but there's no way I will pay $13 a month for it.


I also agree w/ the idea that there is a HUGE market for OTA only TiVo. Currently, I have an HD-TiVo through DirecTV and record HD OTA through that. HOwever, like tonight, there are multiple things to record and watch; I'd love to have a second, OTA-only TiVo. But I won't pay $700 up front and then $13 a month.

kdg I have asked the gentleman to verify what he told me about the 622 and both outputs. I am really bummed that it cannot do this. The HDMI splitter would be my answer of last resort because I would rather not spend $300. If I use that, can anyone tell me how quality will be affected?

Edit: I'm an idiot, the splitter won't work, because neither TV is going to have 2 HDMI inputs right? Any other ideas?
Deuces,
To use a HDMI splitter, you would only need to have 1 HDMI input on each of your TV's. I think that's what you meant.

If you have only component on one of your TV's, and HDMI on the other, you could just as well use a splitter to split the HD component output to both TV's. Regarding video, most say the PQ is identical, HDMI vs Component.

KIM, if you use component, you also need to get audio to both of your TV(s) or sound system(s). Also Note...there are well documented issues with the HDMI output on the VIP series receivers, both 622 and 211. The HDMI output on the 622 is not regarded as a "slam-dunk" output source. It remains an unresolved luck-of-the-draw software issue. Some receivers experience no issues, others intermittent, others work fine, and then stop working, and yet others are DOA. There are no issues with component.

You would probably want some sort of splitting unit that provides component and audio (R/W) input, and 2 component and audio outputs.

Perhaps something like this: (around $100.), though you would need to research if there is any quality-loss using this type of setup.

http://www.vpi.us/images/vopex-hda-2.jpg

I noticed this last week. During HD 16:9 broadcasts on NBC, they have moved their logo to the left side of the screen, and changed it to just a b/w peacock icon. When viewing their HD broadcast in letterbox, the logo bleed across the left border, seeming like their placement is to accommodate digital widescreen originated broadcasts.

kdg I have asked the gentleman to verify what he told me about the 622 and both outputs. I am really bummed that it cannot do this. The HDMI splitter would be my answer of last resort because I would rather not spend $300. If I use that, can anyone tell me how quality will be affected?

Edit: I'm an idiot, the splitter won't work, because neither TV is going to have 2 HDMI inputs right? Any other ideas?

I just checked my Dish 211 for simultaneous HD output on component and HDMI and it works. I couldn't veryify it for the 622, but I think they're very similar devices. I think the info you have may be incorrect, Ken. I'll try to dig up a longer cable to check tomorrow.

I noticed this last week. During HD 16:9 broadcasts on NBC, they have moved their logo to the left side of the screen, and changed it to just a b/w peacock icon. When viewing their HD broadcast in letterbox, the logo bleed across the left border, seeming like their placement is to accommodate digital widescreen originated broadcasts.Not sure I follow what you're saying -- either that or your signature has finally gotten through to me. :)

Are you saying that the logo is sometimes being cut off on the left side of your screen, because that shouldn't be happening, based on the placement that I've seen.

Speaking of logos, the CW logo is hideously opaque and white -- two classic no-nos. Must have been designed by the same team that came up with that idiotic name.

TiVo is a great service and I love it; probably more than most, but there's no way I will pay $13 a month for it.

I agree. As much as I love Tivo, I'm so used to only having to pay $5.99/month to D* for it (and that covers all three units) that getting off of that subsidized rate would make me rethink having the service.

HOwever, like tonight, there are multiple things to record and watch; I'd love to have a second, OTA-only TiVo. But I won't pay $700 up front and then $13 a month.

Winston

If you have a computer laying around, go buy a MyHD card, antenna, and a large harddrive. The MyHD will cost about $180, antenna $20, and a 250 gig HD about $100. If you need DVI out you can get a graphics card with that capability for about $70 or get the MyHD combo (with DVI out) for $250. There is no monthly charge for the service. You will have an OTA HD Tivo for about $350. MyHD 130 cards will decode QAM which means if you have cable service you can get the locals in HD for free. They have onboard tuners so you don't need a whole bunch of processor for them to do the job.

On a side note, before AVSforum lost one of it greatest contributors, Cliff Watson wrote an EPG (electronic programming guide) for the MyHD. Cliff notes was one of my favorite reads for many years.

Walt

Winston

If you have a computer laying around, go buy a MyHD card, antenna, and a large harddrive. The MyHD will cost about $180, antenna $20, and a 250 gig HD about $100. If you need DVI out you can get a graphics card with that capability for about $70 or get the MyHD combo (with DVI out) for $250. There is no monthly charge for the service. You will have an OTA HD Tivo for about $350. MyHD 130 cards will decode QAM which means if you have cable service you can get the locals in HD for free. They have onboard tuners so you don't need a whole bunch of processor for them to do the job.

On a side note, before AVSforum lost one of it greatest contributors, Cliff Watson wrote an EPG (electronic programming guide) for the MyHD. Cliff notes was one of my favorite reads for many years.

WaltHere's a link to it. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=659993)

Have any of you satellite guys looked at these....http://www.nextcomwireless.com/r5000/sales.htm. A little pricey but recording from D* or E* on a PC.

Walt

Winston

If you have a computer laying around, go buy a MyHD card, antenna, and a large harddrive. The MyHD will cost about $180, antenna $20, and a 250 gig HD about $100. If you need DVI out you can get a graphics card with that capability for about $70 or get the MyHD combo (with DVI out) for $250. There is no monthly charge for the service. You will have an OTA HD Tivo for about $350. MyHD 130 cards will decode QAM which means if you have cable service you can get the locals in HD for free. They have onboard tuners so you don't need a whole bunch of processor for them to do the job.

On a side note, before AVSforum lost one of it greatest contributors, Cliff Watson wrote an EPG (electronic programming guide) for the MyHD. Cliff notes was one of my favorite reads for many years.

WaltOne thing that I'd like to add here -- for anyone who is building or considering building their own PC-based DVR, be sure to pay particular attention to the video card, as things can definitely go wobbly on this score, at least from a picture quality standpoint.

The main issue is that there are two types of DVI outputs -- one for computers (PC) and one for home theater (VIDEO). The main difference is how black level is encoded for the different flavors, and it's extremely important that you buy a video card that is capable of doing VIDEO levels (black at digital 16, not digital 0 as for the PC flavor). This may sound like a minor issue, but it can cause serious video quality issues, particularly if a display is expecting video levels and the card can only output PC levels.

The ISF is working with video card manufacturers, and in particular with Microsoft and its Media Center team, on video issues. The ISF Labs certifies cards that comply with proper video standards, and many ATI cards have been ISF-certified. Unfortunately, not all video card manufacturers submit their cards for certification, so looking for an ISF endorsement is not a perfect way to screen the compliers from non-compliers.

Edit: Note that the same applies to HDMI in term of black level encoding (16 vs. 0), for those cards that provide HDMI instead of or in addition to DVI. With HDMI output, there is an additional wrinkle in that HDMI can output either digital RGB or digital component (YCrCb), while DVI is digital RGB only. The RGB/YCrCb is a less problematic issue, but one to be aware of when it comes time to configure your devices.

Doug

I totally agree with you. You lose the ability to reproduce BTB and WTW. I think, though, that this is not so big a problem with digital displays. I also think that a good calibration will scope the outputs from all sources to insure compliance with the standards and not just rely on the manufactures or ISF. Remember that NTSC really stands for Never The Same Color. When you have several different sources and are a video freak, then you require and external device (scaler) that gives you the ability to tweak RGB for those devices that can't be tweaked (DVD players/STBs). That, or have several calibrated inputs or memories in your display device.

Walt

Have any of you satellite guys looked at these....http://www.nextcomwireless.com/r5000/sales.htm. A little pricey but recording from D* or E* on a PC.

Walt

The R5000 is a terrific device (or modification to a device). I have both MyHD and the Nextcom R5000, which I use in conjunction with my Dish 211 to record and play back programs. It's also how I've been grabbing the satellite programming I need to create my own home brew HD DVDs. You capture the MPEG2 signal from the Dish 211, convert it using Ulead Movie Factory 5 and burn your own HD DVDs to regular DVD recordables.

Here's the guide on how to do that. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=705146)

Once the shows are in HD DVD format, you can play them back using a regular HD DVD player, with chapter points and even menus. It's not Tivo easy, but once you get the process down, it's not difficult. With the low bit rates on some shows, you can even get some entire movies onto double layer recordable DVDs. That's how I've been able to collect so many Battlestar Galactica episodes in HD from Universal HD. They look a lot better than the SciFi channel broadcasts (even better than the DVDs). They look identical to the original HD broadcasts.

Doug

I totally agree with you. You lose the ability to reproduce BTB and WTW. I think, though, that this is not so big a problem with digital displays. I also think that a good calibration will scope the outputs from all sources to insure compliance with the standards and not just rely on the manufactures or ISF. Remember that NTSC really stands for Never The Same Color. When you have several different sources and are a video freak, then you require and external device (scaler) that gives you the ability to tweak RGB for those devices that can't be tweaked (DVD players/STBs). That, or have several calibrated inputs or memories in your display device.

Walt

When my Toshiba HD DVD player was upgraded recently through a firmware update, they switched from DVI video levels to DVI PC levels for the output. Some devices don't have an easy way of handling this difference. The Lumagen video scaler has settings for DVI PC/ DVI video and so I was able to adjust that fairly easily. A lot of devices don't, though, and I can imagine the horror of some people doing the update and then trying to figure out what happened to their image and correct it.

Hey, Walt it's good to see we're on the same page -- mostly.

At the risk of looking like a complete ass by contradicting someone who actually agrees with me, the BTB and WTW issue is equally an issue for both analog and digital displays.

One of the things I routinely encounter is the idea that because a device is digital that the old rules don't apply or aren't important. The fact is, the ONLY standards we have are the standards that were developed for a CRT world, and those are still the standards in force in the film and video production worlds.

So, even though a digital display may have some advantages over an analog device (for instance, a larger color gamut (range)), the first goal of any digital display is to comply with the video standards that have been in force since the dawn of the NTSC and HDTV eras.

No doubt there will be changes to our video standards as digital displays become the norm, particularly as we're nearing a point where color gamut limitations will truly be a thing of the past. But until then, and until film and television production fully embrace any such new standards, we need to continue to apply the same agreed criteria at both ends of the video signal.

On the other hand, I unreservedly agree with your comments about video scalers/processors. I'm convinced that video processors are going to be "the next big thing," simply because they provide an unparalleled bang for the buck, particularly when you compare the quantifiable "on screen impact" against other popular "tweaks," such as expensive cables/interconnects or power conditioning.

That's why I've embraced the Lumagen video processor line, which combines excellent scaling with excellent video adjustment capabilities. These processors are a perfect complement to my video calibration focus.

The main issue is that there are two types of DVI outputs -- one for computers (PC) and one for home theater (VIDEO). The main difference is how black level is encoded for the different flavors, and it's extremely important that you buy a video card that is capable of doing VIDEO levels (black at digital 16, not digital 0 as for the PC flavor). This may sound like a minor issue, but it can cause serious video quality issues, particularly if a display is expecting video levels and the card can only output PC levels.

I may be just plain thick with this issue, but the difference between DVI Video/DVI PC levels leaves my head spinning. I know how to deal with it well enough on a practical level, but the math of it is very confusing. While DVI PC levels would seem to be preferrable (covering the full range from 0-255), it's DVI Video that can actually display that full range (even though they are supposed to cover a range from 16-235). DVI PC levels (0-255) can't display BTB and WTW. Anything below 16 is all black and everything above 235 is all white. DVI Video levels, though, can acutally show levels of gray below and above those magic numbers. I've read a lot about it, but in the end it just seems backwards to me. There's probably a light bulb waiting to go off over my head on this one day, but so far I'm still stumbling around in the dark.

Doug

I don't own a scaler. If/when I find it necessary to get one, the Lumagen HDP Pro will be the one I purchase. I have fooled with one in the past, and aside from early software problems, it makes my peepee all twitchawee.

Walt

I just checked my Dish 211 for simultaneous HD output on component and HDMI and it works. I couldn't verify it for the 622, but I think they're very similar devices. I think the info you have may be incorrect, Ken. I'll try to dig up a longer cable to check tomorrow.
Joe,
You are correct Joe. My 211 also outputs HD via HDMI and Component simultaneously, and the DISH written specifications for the 211 indicate this also.

IIRC, I included the 211 as one in the list of DISH receivers that does not output simultaneously. It is the dual-TV receivers which do not output HDMI and Component HD simultaneously. Sorry for the confusion :o

The 211 and 921 are single-TV receivers. The 622, and 942 are dual-TV receivers. Other than the software interface, the 622 is much different than the 211.

I just don't want to see anyone buy anything expecting it to do something its not going to. :)

BTW, the link I provided is directly from the Echostar Tech Portal Site, and I'm reasonably certain the specifications there are correct.
LINK (http://rweb.echostar.com/departmental_content/TechPortal/content/tech/receiver/622.shtml) to 622 Specs
LINK (http://rweb.echostar.com/departmental_content/TechPortal/content/tech/receiver/411.shtml) to 211 Specs

Not sure I follow what you're saying -- either that or your signature has finally gotten through to me. :)

Are you saying that the logo is sometimes being cut off on the left side of your screen, because that shouldn't be happening, based on the placement that I've seen.

Speaking of logos, the CW logo is hideously opaque and white -- two classic no-nos. Must have been designed by the same team that came up with that idiotic name.

I know what KDG is referring to. The peacock is displayed for a second in color and changes to an non-obtrusive NBC logo in black & white on the lower left corner of the screen. I saw another channel do something similar on the lower left corner too. I think we are so used to channel bugs being on the right we notice when it changes.

Not sure I follow what you're saying -- either that or your signature has finally gotten through to me. :)
Are you saying that the logo is sometimes being cut off on the left side of your screen, because that shouldn't be happening, based on the placement that I've seen.
Oh....like I'm supposed to know what I meant??

It looks like NBC finally re-did the logo to accommodate their 16:9 broadcasts.
I think CBS, ABC and FOX had already done theirs before the season began.

The mentioning of it being cut-off when an originated 16:9 is shrunk down to 4:3 is an indication their placement was to accommodate Both 4:3 & 16:9, as they have partially located it outside the 4:3 border on a widescreen display.

In the past, they all used one logo, and during widescreen, it was almost in the middle of the picture....ESPN's in-game box comes to mind.

BTW, saw that Nano neon commercial on Leno last night, but it was still in SD :(

The best thing about the NBC logo change is that KSDK seems to have stopped using their aircraft carrier-size logo, at least most of the time. I do still see it pop up from time to time during the Leon musical segments.

I had a message saying that the upgrade was coming but not the actual upgrade. I think D* finally figured out that they needed to let people know what was going on as I'm sure it generated a lot of calls. So anyway, got the notice after I forced a call this morning.

So it's not a myth as Doug suspected. ;)

Winston

If you have a computer laying around, go buy a MyHD card, antenna, and a large harddrive. The MyHD will cost about $180, antenna $20, and a 250 gig HD about $100. If you need DVI out you can get a graphics card with that capability for about $70 or get the MyHD combo (with DVI out) for $250. There is no monthly charge for the service. You will have an OTA HD Tivo for about $350. MyHD 130 cards will decode QAM which means if you have cable service you can get the locals in HD for free. They have onboard tuners so you don't need a whole bunch of processor for them to do the job.

On a side note, before AVSforum lost one of it greatest contributors, Cliff Watson wrote an EPG (electronic programming guide) for the MyHD. Cliff notes was one of my favorite reads for many years.

Walt

Here is a link (http://forum.byopvr.com/dvr/index.php?PHPSESSID=54824c0a9c60b1950ace9a5d0816aeed&board=16.0) to a build your own HD PVR forum that may be useful as well.

TV Week Provides Legal, Industry Analysis on "HD Lite" Suit

Interesting article with some good quotes. Here's some specifics on the actual complaint and how it is being framed:
_______________________________________________

Mr. Cohen claimed DirecTV lowered the resolution of its HD signal from the Advance Television Systems Committee standard of 1920 x 1080i lines of resolution to 1280 x 1080i, a 33 percent drop.

Furthermore, he claims the amount of bandwidth used per stream was lowered from the standard 19.4 mbps to as low as 6.6 mbps. Lines of resolution and bandwidth both affect image quality.
_______________________________________________


I also found this quote interesting, particularly considering the source:
_______________________________________________

"My understanding is that until there were 1080p monitors, there were hardly any commercially available television sets that could resolve anything more than like 1330 x 720," he [Greg Moyer, general manager of Voom HD Networks] said.

"So it's hard to argue why they should have been delivering a television picture better than any set could show… Arguably, there's a perceptible difference, but it will be minor.

"They [cable and satellite providers] wonder: 'Why should I burn that bandwidth prematurely? I would rather give them diversity of channels than overdeliver on clarity that 98 percent of homes can't even display.'

"That's the actual debate going on."
_______________________________________________

The full article can be read by clicking here. (http://www.tvweek.com/page.cms?pageId=312)

TV Week Provides Legal, Industry Analysis on "HD Lite" Suit

Interesting article with some good quotes. Here's some specifics on the actual complaint and how it is being framed:
_______________________________________________

Mr. Cohen claimed DirecTV lowered the resolution of its HD signal from the Advance Television Systems Committee standard of 1920 x 1080i lines of resolution to 1280 x 1080i, a 33 percent drop.

Furthermore, he claims the amount of bandwidth used per stream was lowered from the standard 19.4 mbps to as low as 6.6 mbps. Lines of resolution and bandwidth both affect image quality.
_______________________________________________


I also found this quote interesting, particularly considering the source:
_______________________________________________

"My understanding is that until there were 1080p monitors, there were hardly any commercially available television sets that could resolve anything more than like 1330 x 720," he [Greg Moyer, general manager of Voom HD Networks] said.

"So it's hard to argue why they should have been delivering a television picture better than any set could show… Arguably, there's a perceptible difference, but it will be minor.

"They [cable and satellite providers] wonder: 'Why should I burn that bandwidth prematurely? I would rather give them diversity of channels than overdeliver on clarity that 98 percent of homes can't even display.'

"That's the actual debate going on."
_______________________________________________

The full article can be read by clicking here. (http://www.tvweek.com/page.cms?pageId=312)

Cool, and thier customers are paying money for HD sets that they expect to see full PQ on, as well as paying a premium for content.

I suspect the bandwidth wars will never end.

I just pulled out an old component cable and tested the simultaneous HD output of the Dish 622 over HDMI and component. It does work. I was getting the image on two HD sets at the same time. I am running the 622 in single mode (driving only one TV), not dual, since it ordinarily goes only to one projector. I don't know what the result might be if I tried to do that in 2 TV mode.

It's not been talked about too much, but Dish is downrezzing HDNet from 1920x1080 to 1440x1080. Even though I have a 720p set, I can tell a difference. It's definitely softer than it was and other artifacts seem more pronounced now than they did before. The providers seem to be in a serious slide now, trying to compete with the number of channels they provide. As much as I want more channels, I don't want HD Lite. Better to have fewer stations at higher quality.

Just a warning to those who may not have the full info on the Blu-ray PC drives that have shown up at Best Buy and CompUSA within the last week or so. The dirve is $750, but just in case you're thinking it's cheaper than the Samsung $1,000 Blu-ray player in the regular consumer electronics section of the store - that drive will not play commercial Blu-ray movies unless you have all the necessary hardware and software on your computer system. That would include at least the correct videocard, motherboard, monitor and software player. There probably are almost no computers in the area that would meet the requirements. None of mine do.

Better to have fewer stations at higher quality.

Hmmm WHAT? That's everone's argument NOT to get Charter!!!!

:)

Well, that and the horrible CS, heeh.

HDNet is one of my favorite channels on Charter. Its gorgeous.

Hmmm WHAT? That's everone's argument NOT to get Charter!!!!

:)

Well, that and the horrible CS, heeh.

HDNet is one of my favorite channels on Charter. Its gorgeous.

Charter takes the tradeoff between number of HD channels and quality of HD channels to the other extreme. In the end, it may well be ATT or Charter (or its successor) that ends up with the best balance. That's the company I'll probably end up with. HDNet used to set the standard on Dish, too, and it was probably my favorite channel for quality and sheer range of programming. Dish will have to go much further toward bad HD quality to make me switch, but if they continue this trend, I won't hesitate to go to a new provider who does it better. Right now, the best candidate for that, I think, is ATT, when they roll out their new service. How long it will take them to offer as much as I'm getting now I have no idea.

I just checked my Dish 211 for simultaneous HD output on component and HDMI and it works. I couldn't veryify it for the 622, but I think they're very similar devices. I think the info you have may be incorrect, Ken. I'll try to dig up a longer cable to check tomorrow.

OK. See if this addresses the question:

I have two HD displays connected to my 622. The 622 is in Dual mode. The upstairs TV is a DLP connected to the 622 via HDMI. It sits right under the TV on a lower shelf. The downstairs TV is an HD Projector connected via 15 feet of component cables. It just so happens to be almost directly under the 622 hanging from the ceiling in my basement theater. BOTH TVs can view HD in all its glory at the same time. Of course, it's the same program (TV1) and I must use an IR extender to control the 622 while downstairs. But it works out GREAT.

I just pulled out an old component cable and tested the simultaneous HD output of the Dish 622 over HDMI and component. It does work. I was getting the image on two HD sets at the same time. I am running the 622 in single mode (driving only one TV), not dual, since it ordinarily goes only to one projector. I don't know what the result might be if I tried to do that in 2 TV mode.
Well, this surely put a wrinkle in the credibility of Dish's published specifications. And, this is what the installers use for guidance :eek: I shuda known, this is also where it instructs the installers to connect a Dish HD receiver using RCA type composite cables.

That's good to know Joe. I don't ever anticipate using it, but I'm sure your time is much appreciated by Deuces.

Regarding your other post, I've noticed some difference in HDNET. I don't watch it all that often. I had it on last week, and recall thinking it didn't look as good as I remembered.

On another note, has anyone noticed any difference in the PQ on FSNMW-SD? It seems much softer, especially since the BB All Star break...almost blurry.

On another note, has anyone noticed any difference in the PQ on FSNMW-SD? It seems much softer, especially since the BB All Star break...almost blurry.

I thought that was just my tears from watching Cardinals games this past week.

I thought that was just my tears from watching Cardinals games this past week.
They were .631 in HD games...doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what the problem is...uhm....was :(

Anyone else having lip sync issues with CW shows?
I'm watching HD over Charter, on a Moxi box. It was bad Tuesday for Gilmore Girls, bad again tonight with Supernatural. There's a lip sync control on my Olevia 537H LCD, but it doesn't help much.

barry

Around 5:00 pm today E* download a software update (365) to fix some of the issues caused by the last update (363), mainly the audio drops that had plagued 50% of the receivers.

Also, has anyone been able to use the "TV Entertainment" feature? Mine is greyed out in the menu...

So it's not a myth as Doug suspected. ;)Hey, I was just trying to cushion the blow if they didn't come through... ;)

Like Mo, this afternoon I received notification that version 6.3 is going to be downloaded soon, with the warning that I needed to have my phone line connected.

Anyone else having lip sync issues with CW shows?
I'm watching HD over Charter, on a Moxi box. It was bad Tuesday for Gilmore Girls, bad again tonight with Supernatural. There's a lip sync control on my Olevia 537H LCD, but it doesn't help much.

barry


There was no noticable lipsynch issue on Smallville last night, on a Dish 211. I was watching the OTA channel, not the sat feed.

Cheers,

Around 5:00 pm today E* download a software update (365) to fix some of the issues caused by the last update (363), mainly the audio drops that had plagued 50% of the receivers.

Also, has anyone been able to use the "TV Entertainment" feature? Mine is greyed out in the menu...

It's not supposed to be active just yet.

On a side note, I just ordered a 622 :)

Best,

Has anyone noticed more signal problems with Channel 4 within the last week or so? I'm in Sunset Hills near 270/21 and have had real signal issues the last week.I went back last night and watched several recent musical segments from Letterman and I didn't have any recordings where signal quality was an issue. There was one with a single, brief dropout, but I think that was an entirely random event.

There was no noticable lipsynch issue on Smallville last night, on a Dish 211. I was watching the OTA channel, not the sat feed.

Cheers,

Do you have the R5000 mod, John?

djearl, kdg, joseph, and moman, Thank you.

Sorry I have been out of town on business for two days. So that is why there was no response to your conversations. Thank you to all of you who continued discussing my issue, how cool is that I leave and you all keep working on it for me. Also thank you to anyone I may have missed.

kdg, when I said I would need two HDMI inputs on one of the TVs, that is because I currently have the 942 set up with HDMI to basement and component to bedroom. I want to add a 622 and basically do the exact same thing with it only reverse which TV is receiving which. Essentially using two receivers in single mode to send 2 signals to each TV. But if I had to use the HDMI splitter for the 622, then one TV's HDMI input would have already been full, that is the reason I commented I would need 2 HDMI inputs. Maybe my logic is wrong, I am not as good at this as all of you.

But it seems that most are agreeing now that both are live at the same time, which obviously solves the problem. Someone else at satelliteguys also said both are live. Anyone think they might change this in the future since they claim they are not both live?

Also, I am in Ofallon, IL. Dish told me to call a dealer to get a 622 and 1000+. I called a local guy who I had talked to on the phone and he acted like he knew what he was doing. He said he would call me this week sometime. He has not. Does anyone know of a dealer who: 1. is very good (I don't want to come back here and tell you all my horror story afterward) and 2. would be willing to do an install of a 622 and 1000+ in Ofallon, IL? And then I will just cross my fingers that I get one with a good HDMI output, I have read some of the problems you commented on kdg.

Thank you again to all.

Dueces -

So I'm sitting at work and one of my co-workers starts talking about his brother in law that wants to get the new dish receiver. However, he'd like to run one HD signal to one TV and another HD signal to another TV. I say...Hey, there is this guy in the AVS forum that is trying to do the same thing.

Craig says hi...and is wondering why your TV is mounted to high in the basement.

:)

Do you have the R5000 mod, John?

Nope, not yet. I'm going to send it out for that mod after I get it here.

CHeers,

Tell Craig it is just fine where it is. If you or he could only figure out why the brightness constantly flickers up and down we would be in business. WHAT A FREAKING RIOT!

Nope, not yet. I'm going to send it out for that mod after I get it here.

CHeers,

You're having the 622 modded? I'd think the 211 would be a much better candidate.

Also, has anyone been able to use the "TV Entertainment" feature? Mine is greyed out in the menu...
Chuck,
It began working on mine a couple of days ago. I watched the first few minutes of Lost and FNL. After seeing it is all in SD, and remembering you explaining how "they" are using my drive space to store this crap, I shut it off.

I have 365 on both boxes, as you said, as of this morning, but the TV E feature had become available with 363. I believe I first noticed it available on Wednesday.

BTW, I was having huge problems with my bedroom 622, around 6PM last night. Now I know it was the 365 D/L. Sometimes they don't play nice together. It took the D/L fine, but would not D/L the guide. I eventually had to restart the 44, run checks before and after, then it was fine. My other 622 took it squeaky-clean.

A couple of pages back I posted about how the new bar "The Church Key" in Forest Park Southeast was showing standard def on two brand new 50" Samsung DLPs. I got a response back from the owner in regards to an email I sent them:


Thank you so much! We will post these stations behind the bar! I'm glad you
enjoyed the bar & thank you for being a part of opening weekend!

Carrie Bellon

dweebe writes:

> Like the new place. Checked it out last night at Grovefest and will be
> coming back.
>
> Also like the two new HDTVs and the fact you actually have them wired to
> show High Def. Just make sure your guys tune the TVs to the High Def
> channels from Charter to show off the $5000+ you invested in them. From the
> Charter website here are the high def channels.
>
>
>
> 770 HDNet Hi-Def Tier
>
> 771 HDNet Movies Hi-Def Tier
>
> 773 ESPN HD Hi-Def Tier
>
> 775 Discovery HD Theater Hi-Def Tier
>
> 777 HBO HDTV-East Hi-Def Premium
>
> 778 Showtime HDTV-East Hi-Def Premium
>
> 779 Cinemax HDTV-East Hi-Def Premium
>
> 781 KPLR-DT - WB Hi-Def Lifeline
>
> 782 KTVI-DT - FOX Hi-Def Lifeline
>
> 784 KMOV-DT - CBS Hi-Def Lifeline
>
> 785 KSDK-DT - NBC Hi-Def Lifeline
>
> 789 KETC-DT - PBS Hi-Def Lifeline
>
> 791 PPV-Event Only Hi-Def PPV
>
> 792 Fox Sports Net Midwest - HD Hi-Def Lifeline
>
> 797 TNT - HD Hi-Def Tier
>
> 799 MHD Hi-Def Tier
>
>
>
> Channel 30/ABC is not available through Charter cable. You will need to hook
> up an inexpensive antenna to receive that channel.
>
>
>
> For more information about local HDTV go to the St. Louis HDTV section at
> avsforum.com. Use the following link: www.stlhdtv.info

Nice to see this.

Joe:

I'm going to have both that I own. It's a tossup as to which I'm getting modified.

If they would open up the 622/211 via ethernet then I could store on 622 / playback on 211 and archive to the hard drive and be recording lots o' stuff this way.... Pretty neat for capturing HD movies :)

Cheers,

Joe:

I'm going to have both that I own. It's a tossup as to which I'm getting modified.

If they would open up the 622/211 via ethernet then I could store on 622 / playback on 211 and archive to the hard drive and be recording lots o' stuff this way.... Pretty neat for capturing HD movies :)

Cheers,


I want all these neat toys too, but I have nowhere near the technical knowledge to do this stuff. What would it cost to get something like this done? Because I can't do it myself I would have to pay someone to set it all up plus equipment costs.

I want all these neat toys too, but I have nowhere near the technical knowledge to do this stuff. What would it cost to get something like this done? Because I can't do it myself I would have to pay someone to set it all up plus equipment costs.
:) Put down that VGA cable, and Walk Away. :)

Here's some good news from California.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060929/tc_nm/telecoms_california_dc_5


Calif. cable-TV market opened to phone companies By Jim Christie


California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger signed a bill on Friday creating a single statewide market for cable television by eliminating city-by-city franchises, opening the market to competition from telephone companies.

"Increased competition will translate into better service and lower prices for everyone," Schwarzenegger said in a statement.

"This bill will add another significant player into the cable television marketplace and help speed the spread of new and innovative technologies across the state," he added.

The bill by Assembly Speaker Fabian Nunez allows telecommunications companies to obtain a single permit to deliver Internet and television services to homes and businesses.

California previously required cable-TV providers to obtain franchises at the local level, a requirement that impeded competition from telephone companies.

Telephone and cable companies are fighting to sell bundled services including telephone, cable-TV and high-speed Internet access, which often cost more than $100 a month.

Telephone companies including AT&T Inc. (NYSE:T - news) have lobbied to eliminate laws requiring franchise deals with municipalities so they may offer television service.

AT&T plans to invest up to $1 billion in California through the end of 2008 to upgrade its telephone network in the state and to launch an Internet-protocol video entertainment service, which would compete with cable-TV companies.

"This is the first time California will see real competition in the TV/video marketplace," AT&T California President Ken McNeely said. "This law replaces outdated, 43-year-old legislation that hasn't kept pace with technology, or consumers' desire for choice."

Verizon West Region President Tim McCallion said the new law allows Verizon Communications Inc. (NYSE:VZ - news) to move forward with its expansion of a fiber-optic network in California.

"The new law also provides the certainty for Verizon to commit hundreds of millions of dollars in additional investment to accelerate fiber deployment in California, creating hundreds of new jobs and stimulating our state's economy," McCallion said.

Joe:

I'm going to have both that I own. It's a tossup as to which I'm getting modified.

If they would open up the 622/211 via ethernet then I could store on 622 / playback on 211 and archive to the hard drive and be recording lots o' stuff this way.... Pretty neat for capturing HD movies :)

Cheers,

The reason I asked is that the name based recording on the 622 might be tough to reconcile with the R5000's recordings. The R5000 communicates with the 211 in only a very basic way. It makes sure it's on, sets it to the chosen channel and starts recording. You might set up manual recordings with the R5000 software and then have the 622's name based recordings kick in and interrupt what it was doing. With the 211, you wouldn't have that problem. Also, the R5000 only records from the active tuner - what you're watching. I really like having the 211 with the R5000 mod so that the 622 is always free of conflicts.

I want all these neat toys too, but I have nowhere near the technical knowledge to do this stuff. What would it cost to get something like this done? Because I can't do it myself I would have to pay someone to set it all up plus equipment costs.

It's not all that tough if you already have a computer and are relatively comfortable with it. If you can add a PCI card to the computer, you can set up a MyHD system. If you can plug a USB cable into a computer, you can set up the R5000 mod. The company that does the mod does all the hard work inside the E*, D* or cable box. Feel free to MP me if you have questions about MyHD or the R5000.

BTW, is there anyone locally here who's looked into having the mod done on one of their Charter boxes? I don't know if Nextcom mods the Charter boxes used locally.

I had a message saying that the upgrade was coming but not the actual upgrade. I think D* finally figured out that they needed to let people know what was going on as I'm sure it generated a lot of calls. So anyway, got the notice after I forced a call this morning.

So it's not a myth as Doug suspected. ;)


For all you out there with HD Tivos, I received my 6.3 update last night.

The channel guide is much faster, comparable to my old SD box and the addition of folders to my Now Playing List has really helped clean things up. I checked around and all of my settings were still the same as well.

Hope everyone else gets theirs soon, it makes a big difference

I want folders :(

One of the draw-backs of the Dish 622 is the lack of. Dish gives you, in their words, a "powerful" sort feature.
Event Date A or D
Date Recorded A or D
Theme

Something lame like that, I don't know exactly, I don't use it. Finding 1 of 80 recordings @ 6 per page can be a real pita.

Anyone found any quick ways to locate a recording, other than typing in some search keyword, or just scrolling?

Still no update for me =[

I can't wait, though!

For those of you thinking about a next generation DVD player, prices have dropped to $395 for the Toshibal HD DVD player and to $750 for the Samsung Blu-ray player. You can find them at eCost.com, here. (http://www.ecost.com/ecost/shop/countdown/default.asp)
I think this Samsung is the original unit, with all its "noise reduction" (read that as picture quality reduction) features. That's a pretty decent price for the Toshiba, though.

For all you out there with HD Tivos, I received my 6.3 update last night.

The channel guide is much faster, comparable to my old SD box and the addition of folders to my Now Playing List has really helped clean things up. I checked around and all of my settings were still the same as well.

Hope everyone else gets theirs soon, it makes a big difference

Thanks for letting us know it's finally headed to our area. I have been watching the TCL threads and it seemed the updates were going everywhere but here.

I haven't gotten mine yet. I have the R10 with 6.1 and it has folders and is fast so I'm really looking forward to 6.3.

So you didn't have to change your Dolby settings either?

Did anyone else watched Law & Order on NBC? For almost half the show there was no dialogue. The commercials had voices. About half way through it was shrunk down into SD with the center channel working and it looked like someone threw the switch to HD, got no sound and threw it back. Is this only a national thing like last year ABC mess with Lost or just more bumbling for the "HD Leader"?

Thanks for letting us know it's finally headed to our area. I have been watching the TCL threads and it seemed the updates were going everywhere but here.

I haven't gotten mine yet. I have the R10 with 6.1 and it has folders and is fast so I'm really looking forward to 6.3.

So you didn't have to change your Dolby settings either?


The Dolby Digital setting stayed the same as well as all my season passes. I don't have any favorite channels set up so I don't know about those.

If you have to change anything around in your Season Pass manager it takes less than 5 minutes where in the past that thing would churn for up to 15.

Thanks for letting us know it's finally headed to our area. I have been watching the TCL threads and it seemed the updates were going everywhere but here.

I haven't gotten mine yet. I have the R10 with 6.1 and it has folders and is fast so I'm really looking forward to 6.3.

So you didn't have to change your Dolby settings either?
Still waiting here, too... but it's coming. Got the message from D*. Maybe if I make that daily call one more time

Did anyone else watched Law & Order on NBC? For almost half the show there was no dialogue. The commercials had voices. About half way through it was shrunk down into SD with the center channel working and it looked like someone threw the switch to HD, got no sound and threw it back. Is this only a national thing like last year ABC mess with Lost or just more bumbling for the "HD Leader"?



Yes I noticed that to, glad to hear it wasn't my VIP622 that cut out the audio. I was wondering if it was my box or the transmission. Have to wait for the rerun to see it.

Did anyone else watched Law & Order on NBC? For almost half the show there was no dialogue. The commercials had voices. About half way through it was shrunk down into SD with the center channel working and it looked like someone threw the switch to HD, got no sound and threw it back. Is this only a national thing like last year ABC mess with Lost or just more bumbling for the "HD Leader"?
Yes Mo, my wife told me earlier, it was so bad, she had to stop watching it and erased it. Identical to what you described. Probably a KSDK issue. It's typical of their ongoing cluelessness. Knowing that's not a word, but we're talking KSKD here!

Yes I noticed that to, glad to hear it wasn't my VIP622 that cut out the audio. I was wondering if it was my box or the transmission. Have to wait for the rerun to see it.
When the 622 drops audio, 99/100 a restart resolves it. If you restart the box, and the issue remains, it's the transmission.

Yes Mo, my wife told me earlier, it was so bad, she had to stop watching it and erased it. Identical to what you described. Probably a KSDK issue. It's typical of their ongoing cluelessness. Knowing that's not a word, but we're talking KSKD here!

Thanks for confirming this. I get so aggravated with KSDK. Anyone have their contact info besides the email addresses posted on their web site?

Hi guys

I have a frend that lives in Warrenton off Quarry Road. Anyone have first had experience with OTA reception out there?

Walt

Thanks for confirming this. I get so aggravated with KSDK. Anyone have their contact info besides the email addresses posted on their web site?

Don't waste your time. They still think the audio is just fine. :mad:

When the 622 drops audio, 99/100 a restart resolves it. If you restart the box, and the issue remains, it's the transmission.


I had not been having the audio drop outs like every one else after the 3.63 update but was getting where the box would totally lock up and the picture freeze on the screen. I was thinking great now I'm getting the dropouts to. Knock on wood I havent' had any lockups since the 3.65 patch went down. Hopefully problem solved by Dish.

So can anyone give me the name of a local Dish retailer that I can trust to do a good job on the install of my 622 in Ofallon, IL?

Mo's right Mo...KSDK's position is any persistent issues relate to the network feed, of which, KSDK has no control.

Just to confirm, I spoke with my mom who lives in SoCal, and is a big L&O fan. The broadcast was perfect on her Adelphia Cable HD feed.

I'm goin' with mom on this one :)

For those of you thinking about a next generation DVD player, prices have dropped to $395 for the Toshibal HD DVD player and to $750 for the Samsung Blu-ray player. You can find them at eCost.com, here. (http://www.ecost.com/ecost/shop/countdown/default.asp)
I think this Samsung is the original unit, with all its "noise reduction" (read that as picture quality reduction) features. That's a pretty decent price for the Toshiba, though.

I'm getting close to buying the Toshiba. Another $50 and I'll probably cave.
Hell, I paid $295 for a refurb DTheater JVC just to have HD movies. And I knew at the time it was a dying format.

For all you out there with HD Tivos, I received my 6.3 update last night.

The channel guide is much faster, comparable to my old SD box and the addition of folders to my Now Playing List has really helped clean things up. I checked around and all of my settings were still the same as well.

Hope everyone else gets theirs soon, it makes a big differenceWell I hope the update doesn't mess anything up. I'm in Brasselton GA for the races at Road Atlanta, and expect a bunch of motorsports to be recorded while I'm gone. If that goes wrong I'll be really upset.

Is the update you received 6.3 or 6.3a?

I'm getting close to buying the Toshiba. Another $50 and I'll probably cave.
Hell, I paid $295 for a refurb DTheater JVC just to have HD movies. And I knew at the time it was a dying format.

I hate the format war between HD DVD and Blu-ray. About the only good thing to come of it is the initial low cost of HD DVD. In addition, it's the format that's fulfilling its promises. I don't blame anyone for staying away. I have only bought 6 HD DVDs, about one a month. That may well change as the holidays approach.

I bought the JVC, also, but it was more for archiving HD recordings, pretty much the way it has happened with HD DVD. I stopped archiving that way, though, when the D-VHS tapes started to remind me of the 80s. I still have a few left, but I'm phasing them out. I look forward to the end of the war.

I'm getting close to buying the Toshiba. Another $50 and I'll probably cave.
Hell, I paid $295 for a refurb DTheater JVC just to have HD movies. And I knew at the time it was a dying format.

Don't cave in to another dying format. :D

Still waiting here, too... but it's coming. Got the message from D*. Maybe if I make that daily call one more time

I got the message on both of mine too, but no update yet. I forced four calls each on both of mine yesterday, but no luck.

Don't cave in to a stillborn format. :DHmmm...I think I got that corrected for you. :D

I'm getting close to buying the Toshiba. Another $50 and I'll probably cave.
Hell, I paid $295 for a refurb DTheater JVC just to have HD movies. And I knew at the time it was a dying format.


Yeah I just decided to dive into the war even though I vowed not to.... but at $400 dollars I couldn't resist adding some more HD content for my tv. I will buy a couple movies I'm sure, but for the most part I just signed up for netflix so that I don't end up with a large movie collection that may not become the standard in a year or two from now.

Also for me it was a bit simpler... I wanted to buy an upconverting dvd player and the top rated Oppo is about 200.... The Toshiba is an excellent upconcerting player for standard DVDs so the way I look at is I paid 200 to have the hddvd feature and no matter which standard wins it will be well worth it. In a way I am still rooting for blu-ray because of the increased storage space but you just can't beat the price of the hddvds.

FYI, if you buy the Toshiba at amazon you get 10% all hddvd/bluray movies as well for a year. Only problem is Amazon has been getting a lot complaints on slowness when it comes to shipping out the hddvds and I can confirm this slowness with my first movie purchase from them.

-Phatty

Please understand that this isn't directed at anyone personally -- but if all it takes is a $100 or so price reduction to get consumers to climb aboard the HD DVD bandwagon, then maybe the manufacturers are right -- formats and standards really don't matter.

It's all been a lot wasted bits and bytes, huffing and puffing about consumer electronics manufacturers "not learning anything from VHS/Beta," when in fact, it's looking like it's consumers who haven't learned anything.

Another thing to consider here: If manufacturers are already lowering prices on this technology, it's all but an economic certainty that quality -- in every respect -- is headed downward. This will likely become clear when second- and third-generation HD DVD players come onto the market.

Whenever consumer electronics manufacturers make lower price THE priority -- and in this situation, it appears that price is going to be used as the primary weapon against consumer obsolesence fears -- then quality is casualty number one.

What's the point of a high-quality disc format if it's undermined by poor build quality, cheaper components and compromised picture quality?

I'm beyond fed up with kSDk. I tried to watch "Saturday Night Live" last night, and because it was delayed and recorded locally, the multi-colored flashes ruined it, making it completely unwatchable. I actually did a bunch of TiVo housecleaning yesterday afternoon, weeding out all of the marginal Leno/Letterman/Conan musical segments -- and I came across at least six recordings of Leno and Conan that had exactly the same problem.

Along with the recent audio problems, and it's obvious that the only time KSDK montiors its digital broadcast is during the local news shows.

I'm thinking that I'd like to write a letter not only to kSDk, but also to the VP for Broadcast Television at its parent company, Gannett. I'd like to set up a separate thread here, so that the letter can be posted publically, followed by signature of local forum members who are in agreement with the letter's content.

But a letter alone is probably going to be a non-event to the station and corporate suits. One way to put some OOMPH behind such a letter would be to include a call for a boycott of kSDk advertisers. And it seems the best way to make the point about kSDk not handling HD broadcasts in a professional manner would be to develop a list of all of its sponsors whose advertisements appear on any of the kSDk HD news broadcasts.

I'll admit that I'm frustrated and venting to a certain degree, but I'm also sick and tired of waiting around for these nitwits at kSDk to get their act together -- it's clearly not going to happen without some outside pressure.

I'll post the letter in a day or two and provide a link here. If we can get 100 local signatures, I'll actually send it to kSDk and Gannett. Any number short of that, and I don't think it would be worth the bother.

Comments?

I'm beyond fed up with kSDk. I tried to watch "Saturday Night Live" last night, and because it was delayed and recorded locally, the multi-colored flashes ruined it, making it completely unwatchable. I actually did a bunch of TiVo housecleaning yesterday afternoon, weeding out all of the marginal Leno/Letterman/Conan musical segments -- and I came across at least six recordings of Leno and Conan that had exactly the same problem.

Along with the recent audio problems, and it's obvious that the only time KSDK montiors its digital broadcast is during the local news shows.

I'm thinking that I'd like to write a letter not only to kSDk, but also to the VP for Broadcast Television at its parent company, Gannett. I'd like to set up a separate thread here, so that the letter can be posted publically, followed by signature of local forum members who are in agreement with the letter's content.

But a letter alone is probably going to be a non-event to the station and corporate suits. One way to put some OOMPH behind such a letter would be to include a call for a boycott of kSDk advertisers. And it seems the best way to make the point about kSDk not handling HD broadcasts in a professional manner would be to develop a list of all of its sponsors whose advertisements appear on any of the kSDk HD news broadcasts.

I'll admit that I'm frustrated and venting to a certain degree, but I'm also sick and tired of waiting around for these nitwits at kSDk to get their act together -- it's clearly not going to happen without some outside pressure.

I'll post the letter in a day or two and provide a link here. If we can get 100 local signatures, I'll actually send it to kSDk and Gannett. Any number short of that, and I don't think it would be worth the bother.

Comments?

Signature number 2.

Did anyone else watched Law & Order on NBC? For almost half the show there was no dialogue. The commercials had voices. About half way through it was shrunk down into SD with the center channel working and it looked like someone threw the switch to HD, got no sound and threw it back. Is this only a national thing like last year ABC mess with Lost or just more bumbling for the "HD Leader"?

I had the same problem with the Charter Feed. Except I had some ambient sounds like I was only get a portion of the 5.1 sound. You could hear some of the background music during the scenes but no dialogue. Then about 30 minutes in we got the SD feed...... Will have to wait for a rerun.

Just got around to watching it today and I immediately came on here to see if it was my Moxi or Charter that had the issue. Good to know it was just Your HIDef Leader KSDK.

I'm beyond fed up with kSDk. I tried to watch "Saturday Night Live" last night, and because it was delayed and recorded locally, the multi-colored flashes ruined it, making it completely unwatchable. I actually did a bunch of TiVo housecleaning yesterday afternoon, weeding out all of the marginal Leno/Letterman/Conan musical segments -- and I came across at least six recordings of Leno and Conan that had exactly the same problem.

Along with the recent audio problems, and it's obvious that the only time KSDK montiors its digital broadcast is during the local news shows.

I'm thinking that I'd like to write a letter not only to kSDk, but also to the VP for Broadcast Television at its parent company, Gannett. I'd like to set up a separate thread here, so that the letter can be posted publically, followed by signature of local forum members who are in agreement with the letter's content.

But a letter alone is probably going to be a non-event to the station and corporate suits. One way to put some OOMPH behind such a letter would be to include a call for a boycott of kSDk advertisers. And it seems the best way to make the point about kSDk not handling HD broadcasts in a professional manner would be to develop a list of all of its sponsors whose advertisements appear on any of the kSDk HD news broadcasts.

I'll admit that I'm frustrated and venting to a certain degree, but I'm also sick and tired of waiting around for these nitwits at kSDk to get their act together -- it's clearly not going to happen without some outside pressure.

I'll post the letter in a day or two and provide a link here. If we can get 100 local signatures, I'll actually send it to kSDk and Gannett. Any number short of that, and I don't think it would be worth the bother.

Comments?

I only caught like the last 40 mins of SNL, but it looked / sounded fine here ......

?

Is there a representative for KPLR on these forums?

ts the 3rd week of fall season and KPLR still has lipsync issues for all HD shows that I've seen viewed via charter or OTA.

The commercials seem to be ok, I assume the SD shows are fine but don't really watch any. Anyone aware of the reason, and what the timetable to correct it might be? I was excited to see some of the old UPN shows in HD, and watch new shows this fall...but really disappointed so far.

Sunday Night Football Bears vs Seattle looks horrbile even by NBC/KSDK standards. Pixelation throughout, even on those shots which normally are OK.

Comments?
Number 3

Comment....perhaps all those involved should begin to document specifics of the events, and do so for a couple of weeks....Issue, Program, Date, Time, Source, etc. ?? Then someone compile a log to include with the letter.
I'm willing to do my part, I would also add event timers of shows I don't regularly watch, solely for review, to add to the data.
Thoughts?

I just noticed on my E* 622 that my HD locals are now mapped to the appropriate local station numbers. Dish sends KSDK 5 out on channel 6455, I turned to channel 005-00 and it was showing HD not SD. This is good. It reminds me of when they first made SD locals available in our area. They too were initially mapped to a 4 digit 8xxx number then were mappd to appropriate number at a later date.

This will only be an issue when a stations HD broadcast is not working.........like channel 11 is 50% of the time.

BigDaddy,
Mine, and I believe others here, have always been correctly mapped down. There is a user setting on VIP receivers in Local Channels where you choose which are mapped down, either HD or SD. (6xxx or 8xxx)

IIRC, the default is HD Priority. Perhaps the latest software update on Wednesday, reset the setting back to the default.

If anyone else is using the 6xxx to get to their HD Locals on Dish, go in and change that setting to HD Priority. :)

Is there a representative for KPLR on these forums?

ts the 3rd week of fall season and KPLR still has lipsync issues for all HD shows that I've seen viewed via charter or OTA.

The commercials seem to be ok, I assume the SD shows are fine but don't really watch any. Anyone aware of the reason, and what the timetable to correct it might be? I was excited to see some of the old UPN shows in HD, and watch new shows this fall...but really disappointed so far.

If the file is on your computer or you can move it to your computer, I have fixed the problem using Video Redo. It has a feature that can adjust the syncronization to the video in millisecond increments. I am not aware of another product that does this and I tried many free apps with no joy. I found on one 2 hour KPLR show the audio sync was off by 563 milliseconds, but was consistently off for the two hours. I have a Fusion HDTV tuner card. I also found out that when I played the show back using the "S/PDIF + Direct Sound" option, which only causes stuttering on the other channels, it was fine, but only when KPLR was broadcasting DD5.1. For all other broadcasts I use the "5.1 CH Speakers" option (software decoder).

Please understand that this isn't directed at anyone personally -- but if all it takes is a $100 or so price reduction to get consumers to climb aboard the HD DVD bandwagon, then maybe the manufacturers are right -- formats and standards really don't matter.

It's all been a lot wasted bits and bytes, huffing and puffing about consumer electronics manufacturers "not learning anything from VHS/Beta," when in fact, it's looking like it's consumers who haven't learned anything.

Another thing to consider here: If manufacturers are already lowering prices on this technology, it's all but an economic certainty that quality -- in every respect -- is headed downward. This will likely become clear when second- and third-generation HD DVD players come onto the market.

Whenever consumer electronics manufacturers make lower price THE priority -- and in this situation, it appears that price is going to be used as the primary weapon against consumer obsolesence fears -- then quality is casualty number one.

What's the point of a high-quality disc format if it's undermined by poor build quality, cheaper components and compromised picture quality?

I don't know, in this situation, if second generation products will have worse picture quality. A format war also means that reviewers have an easy method of comparing image quality, often with the same movie releases in the competing formats. The Samsung Blu-ray offering has been crucified in the press and in the online forums. I suspect the Blu-ray camp will be intent on demonstrating that it can create quality images, too, with the release of the next round of Blu-ray players. HD DVD will not want to let down its guard, because they've set the bar pretty high with their first releases. New chipsets and refined production processes alone should be enough to make the second round of players less expensive to manufacture, so the prices should go down naturally. Blu-ray has to be cheaper, because Toshiba has demonstrated that it can produce a product at half the cost, and the touted Blu-ray movie studio superiority hasn't meant the release of more or better titles so far.

Honestly, I don't know which side (if either) will be the next VHS of video distribution, but I still think that for the average person, it's still too early to make the leap. Most people will not place a high value on creating their own discs, as I have. Price will definitely play an important role in people's decisions as to which format to buy into, but I suspect we'll find that the next round of players on both sides will be cheaper and better than the first round.

Then again, I was the one last week saying I would be shocked if the Cardinals made it into the playoffs, so what do I know?

Sunday Night Football Bears vs Seattle looks horrbile even by NBC/KSDK standards. Pixelation throughout, even on those shots which normally are OK.

I tuned in that game and for a few seconds I thought I was on ABC. I saw the bad blocking (video, not football) and I groaned to myself, not ABC, too. Then I realized I was on NBC and it all made sense.

I think this is the main reason we'll get good quality from the providers in the long run. The quality of the digital displays is getting better, and in the end what will distinguish providers is the quality of the image, as it should be. Maybe I'm naive, but I think that will force them to step up to the plate and do it right. (Darn, there's the baseball analogy. I have to keep reminding myself how bad I am at predictions.) :eek:

If the file is on your computer or you can move it to your computer, I have fixed the problem using Video Redo. It has a feature that can adjust the syncronization to the video in millisecond increments. I am not aware of another product that does this and I tried many free apps with no joy. I found on one 2 hour KPLR show the audio sync was off by 563 milliseconds, but was consistently off for the two hours. I have a Fusion HDTV tuner card. I also found out that when I played the show back using the "S/PDIF + Direct Sound" option, which only causes stuttering on the other channels, it was fine, but only when KPLR was broadcasting DD5.1. For all other broadcasts I use the "5.1 CH Speakers" option (software decoder).

VideoRedo is great software - a slick interface and tons of useful features (like audio sync correction). I just wish I could get it to create MPEG video files I could use with the process for creating homemade HD DVDs. None of the MPEGs I've created with VideoRedo works for me to create those discs. Other people have no problems with it, but I must have just the wrong combination of software and hardware.

Polaroid Offers 42-inch Plasma Display for $1,300

Westinghouse? Polaroid? Hey, I hear that the Maytag repair guy has some slack time, so maybe they're next...

The following story is from today's TV Predictions newsletter:
________________________________________________

Industry experts have said that many consumers are waiting for Plasma HDTVs to fall under $1,000 before buying.

Well, prices haven't reached that level yet, but Polaroid and Circuit City have come close.

Today at CircuitCity.com, Polaroid's PLA-4248, a 42-inch Plasma TV with a high-def tuner built inside, is available for just $1,299 (including $100 rebate). The set, which comes with a HDMI port and TV stand, can display high-def signals via cable, satellite, or an off-air antenna.
________________________________________________

The full story can be found here. (http://www.tvpredictions.com/polaroid100206.htm)

Number 4.

I was really upset about L&L. It is one of my wife's favorite shows. I did not notice any of the problems mentioned about SNF. The Bears are for real???

Walt

Hearst Station Yanks HD Local from Cox Over $$$

Hearst looks to be a late-comer to the Sinclair pay-or-get-out-of-the-way approach to distribution of local digital/HD channels.

The following excerpt is from the daily TV Predictions newsletter:
______________________________________________

KETV, the ABC affiliate in Omaha, Nebraska, has pulled its High-Definition TV feed from Cox Cable.

The station says Cox refuses to provide "fair consideration" for the right to carry the high-def feed, which includes ABC's HD broadcasts of Desperate Housewives, Lost and other popular shows.

KETV says it will permit Cox to carry the station's analog feed "so as not to inconvenience a large number of its viewers."

But in a press release at the station's web site, KETV said the two parties have broken off negotiations regarding the high-def signal.
______________________________________________

To read the entire story, click here. (http://www.tvpredictions.com/ketvcox100106.htm)

BBC Considering Launch of HD Channel in US

From today's TV Predictions newsletter:
______________________________________________

The British Broadcasting Corp. (BBC) says it may soon launch a High-Definition TV channel in the United States.

That's according to an article in this week's Multichannel News.

The publication reports that the high-def channel would be part of a worldwide expansion by the BBC, which would also include an Hispanic service.

Darren Childs, BBC Worldwide's managing director of global channels, says the network will be one of the world's biggest producers of high-def content in three years.
______________________________________________

To read the full story, click here. (http://www.tvpredictions.com/bbchd100206.htm)

I complained earlier about no center channel for half the time Law & Order SVU was on. It ticked me off emough that I asked for contact info here. I still dislike the big a** logo placement too.

I am a big Cardinals fan but I guess I forgot how big a baseball town St. Louis is as this is the only city I have lived in that cuts into Leno with updates *before* the play offs and throws off the recording of it. They broadcast the entire show but it goofs the recording. It also inserts all the noise Doug mentioned.

I have the number on speed dial at home for channel 5, so I don't know it. It is basically
the news room and then you have to ask for the Control Room.

Joe:

I hear what you're saying about the 622. I'm thinking about it for the reason that I could capture a movie on one of the 622's tuners, then play it back and capture it to the external Hard disk.

I don't know if that's possible or not. I have to talk to the Nextcom guys about it.

Best,

Well I hope the update doesn't mess anything up. I'm in Brasselton GA for the races at Road Atlanta, and expect a bunch of motorsports to be recorded while I'm gone. If that goes wrong I'll be really upset.

Is the update you received 6.3 or 6.3a?


dwette

It was the 6.3a update. I didn't know there were two different ones.

Not certain, but I believe that KSDK's audio issue is caused by their apparent inability to kill the DD5.1 pilot on non-5.1 programs. As a result, Leno, which is NOT in 5.1 has no center channel. As a result, the center channel remains "live" but with absolutely no content. If you force your audio system to decode the audio in Pro-Logic, you'll fins it actually sound better. Certainly not accurate, but better. Someone over their simply cannot distinguish the difference between Dolby Digital and Dolby Digital 5.1.

They just can't seem to get it right. Or they just don't care.

Joe:

WIth additional reading, it doesn't look like that would work on the 622. Bummer. That really sucks. Probably better to just send the 211 off that I own then.

Best,

Joe:

WIth additional reading, it doesn't look like that would work on the 622. Bummer. That really sucks. Probably better to just send the 211 off that I own then.

Best,

Yes, I think in terms of the 622, once it's on the hard drive it's encrypted. The R5000 mod intercepts the unencrypted signal before it gets to that point. That would be cool if you could do it the way you wanted. You could record whatever you wanted and just archive what you want to keep.

BBC Considering Launch of HD Channel in US

From today's TV Predictions newsletter:
______________________________________________

The British Broadcasting Corp. (BBC) says it may soon launch a High-Definition TV channel in the United States.

That's according to an article in this week's Multichannel News.

The publication reports that the high-def channel would be part of a worldwide expansion by the BBC, which would also include an Hispanic service.

Darren Childs, BBC Worldwide's managing director of global channels, says the network will be one of the world's biggest producers of high-def content in three years.
______________________________________________

To read the full story, click here. (http://www.tvpredictions.com/bbchd100206.htm)

Awesome, I love the show Top Gear!

Hmmm...I think I got that corrected for you. :D

Thanks for the correction. I will probably never buy a player since I refuse to support the manufactures who continue to put out less than stellar competing formats. I especially hate Sony. I hope Bluray dies a quick painful death.

Scott

For us lucky Charter customers(for once) I cannot wait until the Star Wars Marathon in HD, finally Charter you get a heartfelt Thank You.

For us lucky Charter customers(for once) I cannot wait until the Star Wars Marathon in HD, finally Charter you get a heartfelt Thank You.


Eh, who doesn't own all the SW's on DVD anyhow?

:)

For us lucky Charter customers(for once) I cannot wait until the Star Wars Marathon in HD, finally Charter you get a heartfelt Thank You.But will they show them in original aspect ratio, or dummy them down to 1.78 AR? I'll bet a dollar to a donut it's the latter (D* butchers movies like that too).

For some reason I feel pretty good the we will get OAR for an event like this, we'll see.

For us lucky Charter customers(for once) I cannot wait until the Star Wars Marathon in HD, finally Charter you get a heartfelt Thank You.

What channel? I haven't been paying much attention lately.
Dug

edit, nevermind, I hit the programming forum....

For us lucky Charter customers(for once) I cannot wait until the Star Wars Marathon in HD, finally Charter you get a heartfelt Thank You.


When?

Hearst Station Yanks HD Local from Cox Over $$$

Hearst looks to be a late-comer to the Sinclair pay-or-get-out-of-the-way approach to distribution of local digital/HD channels.


Same just happened down here in Oklahoma with Cox and Hearst station KOCO (ABC) in Oklahoma City.

There is a thread in HD programming, but it starts Midnight Nov 10th(Friday) and continues all Weekend long, films are in order 1-6.

Consider me signature number 6. I've been b*tching about Leno's lack of center channel (and rears, and sub) for years now!

Is the national feed marked as Dolby Surround (2.0)?

I'm with you guys, I just wanted to know how its encoded coming from the national feed.

Cheers,

Hello everyone,

I'm new to this thread/forum and just trying to learn as much as I can before plunking down money for the pleasure of viewing local HD programming. Have read much of what's posted here and while much has been helpful, I'm a bit overwelmed.

CUrrently living in Washington, MO (Aprox 45 miles from downtown St. Louis). Have an "HD Ready" TV, and currently subscribing to DirecTV for my programming.

I'm interested in receiving HD signals for local channels only. Have no desire at this time to receive any HD programming over my DirecTV satellite system. Was planning on doing the following:

- Installing a UHF antenna in my attic to receive the OTA signals.
- Parchasing a DirecTV HD receiver capable of decoding OTA signals.

Questions:
1. Anyone in the Washington area currently using an external UHF antenna to receive local HD signals from St. Louis stations? If so, how good is the signal, and any hints to help me?

2. Does this setup make sense for what I want to do?

3. I had heard that if you activate a HD DirecTV receiver, use it only to decode local HD signals, and DON'T subscribe to one of their HD packages... DirecTV will charge you $6/month. Any truth to that?

4. Any hints or help that anyone in my area can give to help me avoid potential pitfalls is greatly appreciated.

Mark

Hi guys

I have a frend that lives in Warrenton off Quarry Road. Anyone have first had experience with OTA reception out there?

Walt

Hey Bud,

I too live in Warrenton, about 2 miles to the north off Hwy 47. We benefit from the fact that our elevation is about 200'-300' higher then the tower locations broadcasting the signals. So yes, we can get excellent HD reception. Using Google Earth, I found that the Warrenton area is in the 800's and the towers are in the 500's elevations making great line of sight reception. This was one of the deciding factors that came into play for me to move out there since I could no longer afford St. Charles County. I actually have much better reception out here then I did in St. Peters!! ... Again, thanks to the better line of sight.

I have a simple cheap Rat-Shack amplified antenna on top of my entertainment center (looks like a small sat. dish) and can receive ABC, CBS, NBC, KSD-Weather, KPLR, The Tube, KDNL, UPN, KLTC,... and another channel I never watch using the Accurian HDTV tuner, also from Rat-shack. My signal strength is usually in the mid to high 80's, and foot ball sundays i've been getting low 90's!!! I am disappointed though for I can't seem to tune in the 4 different PBS stations. I think I need a better tuner or maybe just a better antenna and put it outside. I’ve been lazy and putting off getting the DB8 from Antennas Direct (http://www.antennasdirect.com/index.html). They are local and Richard Schneider (owner/inventor) has some of the best OTA antenna’s in the market.


Good luck,

Brian

p.s. ... Is it just me, or has KPLR's signal been a 'POS' and weak these last few weeks?

p.p. s ... markmeyer , I don't know how well you are going to do with OTA-HD in the Washington area. Your elevations look low (according to Google Earth), and you have some higher area's between you and the towers that could effect your line of sight. (Just west of Pacific, elevations jump up to the 800's) Perhaps a good antenna on a mast or on the roof of a 2 story structure will help.

p.s. ... Is it just me, or has KPLR's signal been a 'POS' and weak these last few weeks?


The site that houses the DT signal for KPLR is undergoing some work that
requires the signal to be shut off.

Hello everyone,

I'm new to this thread/forum and just trying to learn as much as I can before plunking down money for the pleasure of viewing local HD programming. Have read much of what's posted here and while much has been helpful, I'm a bit overwelmed.

CUrrently living in Washington, MO (Aprox 45 miles from downtown St. Louis). Have an "HD Ready" TV, and currently subscribing to DirecTV for my programming.

I'm interested in receiving HD signals for local channels only. Have no desire at this time to receive any HD programming over my DirecTV satellite system. Was planning on doing the following:

- Installing a UHF antenna in my attic to receive the OTA signals.
- Parchasing a DirecTV HD receiver capable of decoding OTA signals.

Questions:
1. Anyone in the Washington area currently using an external UHF antenna to receive local HD signals from St. Louis stations? If so, how good is the signal, and any hints to help me?

2. Does this setup make sense for what I want to do?

3. I had heard that if you activate a HD DirecTV receiver, use it only to decode local HD signals, and DON'T subscribe to one of their HD packages... DirecTV will charge you $6/month. Any truth to that?

4. Any hints or help that anyone in my area can give to help me avoid potential pitfalls is greatly appreciated.

Mark

If "HD ready" means that you have an an HD tuner in the television, then all you'd need is an antenna. Post the model number/make of your television and we can let you know for sure.

You'd only need the DirectTV box if your television doesn't have an HD tuner OR your interested in buying the HD channels from D*.

Welcome to the support group. :)

Perhaps I didn't state it correctly. My TV is "HD Capable", rather than "HD Ready". Meaning that it does NOT have an HD tuner built in. So, that's why I'm assuming that I need the DirecTV box.

Also, I sit on an elevated location with a clear view of the north/north-east (direction to which the St. Louis stations towers are located. Visible line-of-sight looks excellent to me.

Thanks

Mark,
You're correct, you will need a ATSC tuner in some form of Set Top Box (STB).
You can use the tuner inside your DirecTv box. If you prefer not to use your DirecTv tuner, you can purchase a separate STB to decode the off-air digital signals.

One thing to consider is how the program guide data interfaces with either the DirecTv OTA tuner, or a separate STB. If using the DirecTv tuner populates the guide data for the local digital channels, that is probably the best way to go. Using a separate STB would require switching inputs on your TV to change from SAT to OTA.

markmeyer,

I worked for a customer recently in Washington, MO and he was using an antenna and the HD TiVo to get HD locals. If I recall correctly, he didn't have perfect reception, but did pull in most of the STL locals. After calibrating his set, I sat around with him and his son and watched the first half of the US-Italy World Cup football match on KDNL-DT (ABC), and it was flawless.

If I'm not mistaken, this customer said he didn't have an optimal set-up. It's been a few months, but I believe he said the antenna was older or it may have been UHF/VHF (you generally will do better with UHF-only). Or it might have been his cable run was old. Sorry I'm hazy on the details.

You'll probably need to go with a rooftop mount, rather than placing it in the attic. And, as noted, I'd recommend that you go with UHF, rather than a combo.

Finally, if you are looking at buying a new DirecTV HD receiver and using the OTA tuner only, be aware that any "free" or heavily discounted deals on hardware may be contingent on you actually activating a DirecTV subscription. If you don't activate within a certain number of days after purchase (30?), you may find that you'll be charged back the full retail cost of the receiver. This likely wouldn't be a problem if you're going to be using the receiver for other non-HD DirecTV content. But if you're thinking of getting the HD box now and holding off before subscribing to DirecTV, there may be an unpleasant "gotcha" with your name on it.

If you're buying a DirecTV receiver JUST for the OTA tuner, you'd probably be better off buying a used unit, possibly via eBay.

Pringals,

You may already know this, but with KSDK-DT and KETC-DT, you either get both the primary channel and subchannel(s) or you get nothing for any of them.

Digital subchannels are actually part of the same digital bitstream, with the tuner reading the datastream, segregating the various channels and then displaying them as separate channels according to how they've been tagged by the station.

Of course, this is why subchannels are bad for HD picture quality -- when the bitstream is shared among multiple channels, bits that are needed to display full HD quality are diverted for the use of the subchannels.

Two questions from me tonight, guys.

1. Anyone else having problems w/ KTVI-DT? The signal strenght meter is jumping all over the place -- from teens to 90s. All of my other stations are exactly where they were last night and perfect. The antenna is in the attic, so no wind issues.

2. Does anyone know if the Cards game will be on ESPN or ESPN2 HD tomorrow? I know it has to be shown locally, but will it be on ESPN-HD? I can't find this anywhere.

Two questions from me tonight, guys.

1. Anyone else having problems w/ KTVI-DT? The signal strenght meter is jumping all over the place -- from teens to 90s. All of my other stations are exactly where they were last night and perfect. The antenna is in the attic, so no wind issues.

2. Does anyone know if the Cards game will be on ESPN or ESPN2 HD tomorrow? I know it has to be shown locally, but will it be on ESPN-HD? I can't find this anywhere.

Both the A's/Twins and Cards/Pads are scheduled back to back tomorrow in HD. I remember last year during the Division Series, the channel 11 feed was ESPN, with the same graphics. I didn't have HD during the first part of the playoffs(Got it just in time for the WS), but it will be interesting if CWHD rebroadcasts the ESPN HD version or if it will just be the old "SD".

Jeff,

That was my fear. If the game is not broadcast locally in HD -- I doubt it will be -- then will ESPN's feed be blacked out here?

3. I had heard that if you activate a HD DirecTV receiver, use it only to decode local HD signals, and DON'T subscribe to one of their HD packages... DirecTV will charge you $6/month. Any truth to that?


No, you should not have to subscribe to the DirecTV HD package unless, as DropTheRemote suggested, it's required to get a rebate or meet some other requirement for wherever you buy the receiver. My brother-in-law has two DirecTV HD receivers active, one a DVR and the other not...and he has never had the HD package.

Pringals

Thanks for the info. Lonnie will be happy to find this out. Now if we can get the room prepared and the M8000 on the ceiling.........

markmeyer

Get a tuner off Ebay. I really liked the Samsung SIR TS 360 OTA. I gave it to my son-in-law so he could have HD. It was an extra.

Walt

Winston, Jeff,
They're on ESPN HD. On the DISH guide, they are all available to record (Cards/Pads), which means they are not blacked out. I went as far as Games 3 & 4, which is here in STL.

I didn't see anything listed on CW11, but not to say there may be a late addition.

There are no blackouts during playoff games.

Based on past practice, CW will only be offered an SD feed, so the only way to see the Cards in HD during the playoffs will be via ESPN and (hopefully later) via FOX.

p.s. ... Is it just me, or has KPLR's signal been a 'POS' and weak these last few weeks?

I've had no problems with them the past 3 years, except for the past few weeks. Most of the time, I get no signal whatsoever. Their last HD baseball game came in near 100%, and that was during this weak signal period.

I don't know what they're doing, but I dont think they're broadcasting at full power. Maybe they're having some type of dispute with the CW network or something. I dunno. If they don't want to broadcast correctly, I just don't watch. Less ad money for them.

Scheduled so far....

Tuesday, October 3, 2006
Oakland at Minnesota NOON ESPN/ESPNHD - Zito vs Santana
St. Louis at San Diego 3:00 PM ESPN/ESPNHD - Carpenter vs Peavy
Detroit at NY Yankees 7:00 PM FOX/KTVIDT - Robertson vs Wang

Wednesday, October 4, 2006
Oakland at Minnesota NOON ESPN/ESPNHD - Loaiza vs Bonser
LA Dodgers at NY Mets 3:00 PM ESPN/ESPNHD - Lowe vs Hernandez
Detroit at NY Yankees 7:00 PM ESPN/ESPNHD - Verlander vs Mussina

Thursday, October 5, 2006
St. Louis at San Diego 3:00 PM ESPN/ESPNHD - Weaver vs Young
LA Dodgers at NY Mets 7:00 PM FOX/KTVIDT - Maddux vs Glavine

Friday, October 6, 2006
Minnesota at Oakland 3:00 PM ESPN/ESPNHD - TBA
NY Yankees at Detroit 7:00 PM ESPN/ESPNHD - TBA

EDITED to show Central Times

There are no blackouts during playoff games.

Based on past practice, CW will only be offered an SD feed, so the only way to see the Cards in HD during the playoffs will be via ESPN and (hopefully later) via FOX.

yeah i figured as much.

sucks for the ota folks.

Ken, just so no one tunes in late...I think the times in your schedule are ET. Is that right?

kSDk was at it again tonight during "Heroes."

They failed to switch back to HD coming out of the second commercial break and didn't get back to HD until shortly after the third break. I believe there was another brief delay going back to HD following the next break.

Pathetic...but predictable.

kSDk was at it again tonight during "Heroes."

They failed to switch back to HD coming out of the second commercial break and didn't get back to HD until shortly after the third break. I believe there was another brief delay going back to HD following the next break.

Pathetic...but predictable.


I am just watching heroes now and was about to post the same thing. Last week there was no audio for half of Law and Order, weird blue streaks through SNL and now this. Does the picture on heroes look kinda dark or is it just me? It just doesn't look right for some reason.

Anyone else have problems w/ KTVI tonight?

Tons of breakups for me on Prison Break and Vanished. Makes no sense at all.

THis just in....

Weaver in game two, Suppan in three.

Makes sense, Weaver is far better on the road, Suppan is an all-star at home.

Ken, just so no one tunes in late...I think the times in your schedule are ET. Is that right?
Correct, Doug. I edited the post to show our time zone.
Also changed Suppan and Weaver, Winston.

jaymer,

Stay tuned -- I'm working up a letter for group signature on kSDk incompetence.

BTW, if there's general consensus about boycotting kSDK's HD news show advertisers, it would be good if one or more people here could start a list of those advertisers.

On "Heroes," for the most part (or at least when it was actually HD) it looked pretty good. The blacks might have been crushed a bit, but more and more that seems to be "the look" that a lot of TV directors are embracing. I'd go back and take another look, but I've already erased it.

Speaking of blacks, there was an absolutely gorgeous shot in "Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip," where one of the head honchos walks through a corridor in sillouette, then through a pitch black room and then into his office lit only by a desk lamp to speak with Amanda Peet.

Unfortunately that was the highlight of the show for me. :(

OK, I've given it 4 weeks, and I cannot adjust.

I read some posts regarding issues with SNF, though it was fine for me. I watched it on the Dish HD Local. I actually thought, dare I say, the ABC SNF HD production was as good as ESPN's MNF, maybe a bit better.

What I cannot get used to is not hearing Al and John on Monday night. For me, Sunday and Monday are just different. Sunday is all football, Monday is Monday. That sense drudging thought Monday, looking forward to MNF, seems to have been somewhat depleted. :(

Anyone else have problems w/ KTVI tonight?

Tons of breakups for me on Prison Break and Vanished. Makes no sense at all.

I did notice breakups during both shows tonight.

Tonight, Leno looks like KSDK re-broadcasted it with a 20 year old VCR using a 25 year old worn out tape, with the tracking mis-adjusted. Granted I know it's not possible to reproduce HD via a VTR, or at least not the type consumers are accustomed to using.

It's simply incomprehensible, after 3 years of airing their Cards Plus before Leno, KSDK remains still a huge distance from even attaining cluelessness. AbsolUtely deplorable!!

For those keeping track, all of the Cards Plus production and related commercials aired perfectly....go figure.

I also need to get someone from KSDK in here, to read first hand, how the market thinks of their inapprehensible leadership in this market.
:mad:

kSDk was at it again tonight during "Heroes."

They failed to switch back to HD coming out of the second commercial break and didn't get back to HD until shortly after the third break. I believe there was another brief delay going back to HD following the next break.

Pathetic...but predictable.Totally ruined my enjoyment of an otherwise good show.

Speaking of blacks, there was an absolutely gorgeous shot in "Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip," where one of the head honchos walks through a corridor in sillouette, then through a pitch black room and then into his office lit only by a desk lamp to speak with Amanda Peet.

Unfortunately that was the highlight of the show for me. :(

I love this show!!! It reminds me of why I liked Sports Night so much - another Aaron Sorkin production. Sorkin's shows have a verbal rhythm like a boxer on a speed bag.

I loved SportsNight, but so far I'm not impressed by "Studio 60."

To be fair, this is the first episode I've managed to watch all the way through (forgot to set my TiVo for week 1 until halfway through and then the following week it scrolled out of my overcrowded Now Playing List before I could watch it). But I'm doubtful that I'm going to care enough about either the characters or the story to tune in every week. Seems like a lot of inside-TV-navel-gazing that I could really care less about. SportsNight flew by in 30 minutes, but "Studio 60's" hour seemed a lot longer.

If there's a need for an "inside TV" drama, how about this? A story revolving around a Midwest local TV station where the manic-depressive station manager insists on hiring only "physically challenged" engineers (minimum requirement -- at least one missing thumb). While mentally unbalanced and prone to high-resolution delusions of grandeur, he has the station owner's total support and ready funds to buy all the latest cutting-edge broadcast technology. But in the interests of "cultural diversity," the manager has intercepted all of the factory manuals and documentation and replaced them with handwritten versions he's translated into Klingon.

Predictably, hilarity ensues.

I loved SportsNight, but so far I'm not impressed by "Studio 60."

To be fair, this is the first episode I've managed to watch all the way through (forgot to set my TiVo for week 1 until halfway through and then the following week it scrolled out of my overcrowded Now Playing List before I could watch it). But I'm doubtful that I'm going to care enough about either the characters or the story to tune in every week. Seems like a lot of inside-TV-navel-gazing that I could really care less about. SportsNight flew by in 30 minutes, but "Studio 60's" hour seemed a lot longer.

If there's a need for an "inside TV" drama, how about this? A story revolving around a Midwest local TV station where the manic-depressive station manager insists on hiring only "physically challenged" engineers (minimum requirement -- at least one missing thumb). While mentally unbalanced and prone to high-resolution delusions of grandeur, he has the station owner's total support and ready funds to buy all the latest cutting-edge broadcast technology. But in the interests of "cultural diversity," the manager has intercepted all of the factory manuals and documentation and replaced them with handwritten versions he's translated into Klingon.

Predictably, hilarity ensues.

:D :D :D

jaymer,

Stay tuned -- I'm working up a letter for group signature on kSDk incompetence.

BTW, if there's general consensus about boycotting kSDK's HD news show advertisers, it would be good if one or more people here could start a list of those advertisers.

On "Heroes," for the most part (or at least when it was actually HD) it looked pretty good. The blacks might have been crushed a bit, but more and more that seems to be "the look" that a lot of TV directors are embracing. I'd go back and take another look, but I've already erased it.

Speaking of blacks, there was an absolutely gorgeous shot in "Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip," where one of the head honchos walks through a corridor in sillouette, then through a pitch black room and then into his office lit only by a desk lamp to speak with Amanda Peet.

Unfortunately that was the highlight of the show for me. :(

Good idea Doug. We should start a national campaign regarding the station logo in the corner of the screen. Let advertisers know we will not purchase any product advertised on a station that displays a logo bug.

Scott

Interesting that Dish has chosen 1440x1080 for some of their reencodes (HDNet, Starz HD). Maybe they're planning a campaign against D* where they're going to claim, "Our HD Lite is better than your HD Lite." :rolleyes:

Attached is a zip file containing Google Earth placemarks for the St. Louis TV Towers and associated links/info for each one.
http://token1.googlepages.com/towers.jpg
After I created my file, I found a site with all the towers registered with the FCC here (http://www.googleearthhacks.com/dlfile19396/FCC-Licensed-US-Analog-Television-Towers.htm) .

It might be helpful for those tuning their antennas.

Good luck,
Token

OK -- I've done an initial draft of the boycott letter. I have some reservations about making this into a free-for-all group editing project, but I think it's imperative that we come up with something that addresses the key issues and which the maximum number of people can support with their online signature.

So, bear in mind that we're going to need to compromise and focus on what is achievable through this sort of action. For example, if we say "no logo, no way," that's unreasonable and none of our other issues will be taken seriously.

I need to speak with an AVS moderator about whether they would allow us to host the letter and advertiser list here as a separate thread. I know that AVS has resisted being the delivery vehicle for boycotts in the past -- most notably with the Sunday Ticket protests back in 2005. If they won't allow us to host this here, we will need to find a volunteer to handle this for us, along with a direct URL link -- for example, www.boycottkdskhd.com.

Bear in mind this is a pretty rough draft -- at this point, I ask that you focus on content/message, rather than syntax, spelling, etc. The cosmetic stuff can be addressed later.
___________________________________________________________

We, the undersigned, are writing in a final attempt to gain your attention and your support in addressing the chronic failure of your staff to professionally manage KSDK's digital television broadcasts. Many of the viewers who have signed onto this document have made multiple attempts, through direct contact with station management or duty staff, to make you aware of shortcomings in your presentation of high-definition programming from the national NBC network.

But despite frequent communication with you and your organization, nothing changes.

The following are our grivances:

1. Failure to Switch to HD Programming in a Timely Manner. This is the number one problem -- frequently your engineering staff fail to switch to and properly transmit the high-definition feed of prime-time network programming. In some cases, your staff fail to switch to the HD feed when an HD program is originated by the national network. More common is the situation where the HD feed is correctly transmitted from the start of a program, but after a commercial break the program returns in standard definition, sometimes continuing in SD for only a few minutes, but more frequently until the next (or some subsequent) break for commercials. In many cases, once a switch to SD occurs, the HD feed will remain AWOL for the remainder of the program.

No other station in St. Louis comes anywhere close to matching KSDK in this regard. We believe that this is simply a matter of inattention or incompetence by your engineering staff. All evidence points to the fact that this problem can be fixed if you really care about fixing it.

2. Failure in Handling of "Tape-Delayed" HD. It appears that KSDK is the only station in St. Louis able to delay and stream network HD programming that is temporarily pre-empted by local programming, and we commend you for investing in this capability. These pre-emptions happen most commonly with the sports specials for the Rams or Cardinals that you periodically air, resulting in the delayed start of "The Tonight Show with Jay Leno." "Saturday Night Live" is another network HD program that is routinely delayed for your expanded weekend news broadcasts.

Unfortunately, the delayed broadcasts are generally unwatchable, due to the fact that random horizontal streaks of flashing color appear during playback. These streaks first appeared during the early part of the 2005-06 "Saturday Night Live" delayed broadcasts. At one point, the problem appeared to have been fixed, but in recent months it has returned.

The fact that this problem has occurred again and gone on for several months without being addressed leads us to one of two conclusions: Either you don't bother monitoring your HD broadcast or you don't care. In either event, we as viewers find your performance unacceptable.

3. Failure to Properly Relay Surround Audio. There are also repeated problems with your handling of Dolby Digital sound. This typically results in missing center channel information, which unfortunately means no dialog is heard during that program, making the program impossible to comprehend. On other occasions, the front and rear channels have been flip-flopped, and occasionally there is random static in one or more audio channels.

This is another example of KSDK not monitoring what it is transmitting, or simply not caring about serious problems with its digital/HD broadcasts. Asking that you pay attention to what you're sending into our homes does not seem unreasonable.

4. Disruptive Placement of the KSDK Station Logo. There are multiple problems here, beginning with the fact that your NBC network programing already includes a small and generally discrete logo -- while we'd prefer to have no logo at all (we know what channel we're watching), we recognize and understand the realities of branding and promotion.

But then, KSDK adds its own logo, which is enormous and is exacerbated by the fact that you place it in a different area of the screen from the network logo. One logo is a distraction, but your handling of the second logo accomplishes nothing other than to announce that you have no sense of visual style.

Further, your local station logo is opaque, which creates a minor -- but real -- potential for phosphor "burn-in" damage on CRT- or plasma-based consumer displays. In addition to being opaque, your local logo is so bright that you can often view the edges of the graphic overlay surrounding the logo text.

We urge you to eliminate your local station logo, or at minimum, show it only for 10 or 15 seconds at the beginning of a program or after a return from commercial break. What we're essentially suggesting here is that KSDK show some visual common sense and a just little bit of commercial restraint.

A final honest point about onscreen logos. We vehemently resent the fact that your logos appear only during programming, not during commercial breaks. But we're not naive, we recognize that advertisers probably don't like having your logo intruding on there advertising pitch. Well, we feel just as strongly about the fact that you are indifferent to viewer concerns, but apparently will bend over backward for advertisers. Viewers create advertisers.


As noted in the first paragraph of this letter, many of the undersigned here have contacted you over the past few years to make you aware of your many digital/HD broadcast problems. You've ignored us, so we have decided to take a completely different approach going forward.

Effective immediately, all of the undersigned pledge to boycott all of the advertisers who appear on your local HD news broadcasts. We won't listen to their advertising messages, and we most definitely will not buy their products or services. While we recognize that this is somewhat unfair to the advertisers (after all, they aren't the ones making us unhappy), this seems to be our only hope of gaining the attention of KSDK station management.

This letter and a list of current KSDK news program advertisers will be maintained online at www.wwwwwwwww.www. These boycotts will remain in place until KSDK successfully addresses complaints 1-4 for seven consecutive days. In addition, the boycott is contingent on you addressing in some meaningful manner our complaints about your local station logo -- there is wide scope for improvement on how you handle your logo, and we're prepared to provide you some leeway in how you address our concerns.

Once the boycott is lifted, this letter and list of news program advertisers will be removed. However, if we document a minimum of three reoccurences of issues 1-4 during any subsequent 10-day period, the letter and advertiser list will be reinstated, and the boycott will recommence.

We look forward to your prompt action in addressing our grievances.
___________________________________________________________

Wow

OK -- I've done an initial draft of the boycott letter. I have some reservations about making this into a free-for-all group editing project, but I think it's imperative that we come up with something that addresses the key issues and which the maximum number of people can support with their online signature.

So, bear in mind that we're going to need to compromise and focus on what is achievable through this sort of action. For example, if we say "no logo, no way," that's unreasonable and none of our other issues will be taken seriously.

I need to speak with an AVS moderator about whether they would allow us to host the letter and advertiser list here as a separate thread. I know that AVS has resisted being the delivery vehicle for boycotts in the past -- most notably with the Sunday Ticket protests back in 2005. If they won't allow us to host this here, we will need to find a volunteer to handle this for us, along with a direct URL link -- for example, www.boycottkdskhd.com.

Bear in mind this is a pretty rough draft -- at this point, I ask that you focus on content/message, rather than syntax, spelling, etc. The cosmetic stuff can be addressed later.
___________________________________________________________

We, the undersigned, are writing in a final attempt to gain your attention and your support in addressing the chronic failure of your staff to professionally manage KSDK's digital television broadcasts. Many of the viewers who have signed onto this document have made multiple attempts, through direct contact with station management or duty staff, to make you aware of shortcomings in your presentation of high-definition programming from the national NBC network.

But despite frequent communication with you and your organization, nothing changes.

The following are our grivances:

1. Failure to Switch to HD Programming in a Timely Manner. This is the number one problem -- frequently your engineering staff fail to switch to and properly transmit the high-definition feed of prime-time network programming. In some cases, your staff fail to switch to the HD feed when an HD program is originated by the national network. More common is the situation where the HD feed is correctly transmitted from the start of a program, but after a commercial break the program returns in standard definition, sometimes continuing in SD for only a few minutes, but more frequently until the next (or some subsequent) break for commercials. In many cases, once a switch to SD occurs, the HD feed will remain AWOL for the remainder of the program.

No other station in St. Louis comes anywhere close to matching KSDK in this regard. We believe that this is simply a matter of inattention or incompetence by your engineering staff. All evidence points to the fact that this problem can be fixed if you really care about fixing it.

2. Failure in Handling of "Tape-Delayed" HD. It appears that KSDK is the only station in St. Louis able to delay and stream network HD programming that is temporarily pre-empted by local programming, and we commend you for investing in this capability. These pre-emptions happen most commonly with the sports specials for the Rams or Cardinals that you periodically air, resulting in the delayed start of "The Tonight Show with Jay Leno." "Saturday Night Live" is another network HD program that is routinely delayed for your expanded weekend news broadcasts.

Unfortunately, the delayed broadcasts are generally unwatchable, due to the fact that random horizontal streaks of flashing color appear during playback. These streaks first appeared during the early part of the 2005-06 "Saturday Night Live" delayed broadcasts. At one point, the problem appeared to have been fixed, but in recent months it has returned.

The fact that this problem has occurred again and gone on for several months without being addressed leads us to one of two conclusions: Either you don't bother monitoring your HD broadcast or you don't care. In either event, we as viewers find your performance unacceptable.

3. Failure to Properly Relay Surround Audio. There are also repeated problems with your handling of Dolby Digital sound. This typically results in missing center channel information, which unfortunately means no dialog is heard during that program, making the program impossible to comprehend. On other occasions, the front and rear channels have been flip-flopped, and occasionally there is random static in one or more audio channels.

This is another example of KSDK not monitoring what it is transmitting, or simply not caring about serious problems with its digital/HD broadcasts. Asking that you pay attention to what you're sending into our homes does not seem unreasonable.

4. Disruptive Placement of the KSDK Station Logo. There are multiple problems here, beginning with the fact that your NBC network programing already includes a small and generally discrete logo -- while we'd prefer to have no logo at all (we know what channel we're watching), we recognize and understand the realities of branding and promotion.

But then, KSDK adds its own logo, which is enormous and is exacerbated by the fact that you place it in a different area of the screen from the network logo. One logo is a distraction, but your handling of the second logo accomplishes nothing other than to announce that you have no sense of visual style.

Further, your local station logo is opaque, which creates a minor -- but real -- potential for phosphor "burn-in" damage on CRT- or plasma-based consumer displays. In addition to being opaque, your local logo is so bright that you can often view the edges of the graphic overlay surrounding the logo text.

We urge you to eliminate your local station logo, or at minimum, show it only for 10 or 15 seconds at the beginning of a program or after a return from commercial break. What we're essentially suggesting here is that KSDK show some visual common sense and a just little bit of commercial restraint.

A final honest point about onscreen logos. We vehemently resent the fact that your logos appear only during programming, not during commercial breaks. But we're not naive, we recognize that advertisers probably don't like having your logo intruding on there advertising pitch. Well, we feel just as strongly about the fact that you are indifferent to viewer concerns, but apparently will bend over backward for advertisers. Viewers create advertisers.


As noted in the first paragraph of this letter, many of the undersigned here have contacted you over the past few years to make you aware of your many digital/HD broadcast problems. You've ignored us, so we have decided to take a completely different approach going forward.

Effective immediately, all of the undersigned pledge to boycott all of the advertisers who appear on your local HD news broadcasts. We won't listen to their advertising messages, and we most definitely will not buy their products or services. While we recognize that this is somewhat unfair to the advertisers (after all, they aren't the ones making us unhappy), this seems to be our only hope of gaining the attention of KSDK station management.

This letter and a list of current KSDK news program advertisers will be maintained online at www.wwwwwwwww.www. These boycotts will remain in place until KSDK successfully addresses complaints 1-4 for seven consecutive days. In addition, the boycott is contingent on you addressing in some meaningful manner our complaints about your local station logo -- there is wide scope for improvement on how you handle your logo, and we're prepared to provide you some leeway in how you address our concerns.

Once the boycott is lifted, this letter and list of news program advertisers will be removed. However, if we document a minimum of three reoccurences of issues 1-4 during any subsequent 10-day period, the letter and advertiser list will be reinstated, and the boycott will recommence.

We look forward to your prompt action in addressing our grievances.
___________________________________________________________
I'm in.

Doug,
I've set timers for the KSDK local news broadcasts, and will begin capturing their advertisers.
Do you think it may behoove us to also send a copy of the letter to each advertiser?
Are there other advertisers related to KSDK we're looking for, or just from their new broadcasts?

Doug,

Nicely put, or in other words: Well said :)

Cheers,

Ken,

I think, for now, we should just focus on the news program advertisers -- I think that part of the point we're making here is that when KSDK cares about HD, they get it right. So, I think we need to pressure KSDK where they have something both financially and operationally at stake.

I agree that mailing a copy of the letter to advertisers -- and key St. Louis advertising agencies -- is a good idea. But before we do anything outside the forum (or online if this is organized outside AVS) we need a MINIMUM of 100 signatures. If we can get to that sort of number fairly quickly, we can set our sights higher by networking with colleagues, friends, family, etc.

But first we need to get the letter into final shape, along with building our advertiser list.

Thanks for volunteering.

FYI -- I've contacted the AVS Moderator about using AVS as host for our boycott letter. I actually clicked the "Report This Post" link for my draft letter post and sent a brief background note, figuring it would be the quickest way to get moderator attention.

No word from anyone yet, but I'll advise if a reply comes direct to me. If I don't hear back, I'll consider that a green light to move forward once we have a final version. I'd like to aim for this Friday.

Thanks to everyone who's provided initial feedback -- I appreciate it.

I'm in

TV Predictions Goes on Record with 2007 HD Forecasts

I don't know if these are actual predictions, or wishful thinking (nos 1, 3, 4, 6, 8 and 10). For the most part, I'd be happy to see all of these become reality, but I think a 50% hit rate might be optimistic.

The following are the bullet point predictions. Background and detail on each point can be found by reading the full article via the link at the bottom of this message.
________________________________________________________

1. Sony and Toshiba will settle their HDTV DVD format war.

2. The XBox 360-Play Station 3 war will generate more interest in high-def DVDs.

3. HDTV prices will drop even more dramatically next year.

4. The HDTV picture quality will become a big issue in the battle between cable and satellite TV operators.

5. The rollout of 1080p TVs will further the battle over which programming format offers the best picture.

6. Multicasting will continue to die a slow death.

7. There will be an explosion of local stations switching to high-def news broadcasts.

8. New HD-dedicated channels will launch in 2007.

9. There will be a boom in commercials produced in HDTV.

10. DIRECTV will become the HDTV leader.
________________________________________________________

For the complete story, click here. (http://www.tvpredictions.com/hdpredictions100306.htm)

Doug,
I'll have a list of sponsors for KSDK's news broadcasts at Noon, 5PM, and 10PM, to you on Thursday night.

I'd be happy with 1, 6 & 8. We already know 7 has the potential for disaster in other programing.

Count me in, and I'm sure I could find a couple others outside of this forum to put their name on a list as well.

I'm in.

Next we tackle Fox2 with all three of their LOGOS on their DT transmission.

Did anyone else watched Law & Order on NBC? For almost half the show there was no dialogue. The commercials had voices. About half way through it was shrunk down into SD with the center channel working and it looked like someone threw the switch to HD, got no sound and threw it back. Is this only a national thing like last year ABC mess with Lost or just more bumbling for the "HD Leader"?

The same thing kept happening on Cold Case on CBS on Sunday but happened intermittently throughout the broadcast - center channel would be there then gone then shrink to sd, center channel comes back, expands to hd, works for a while and then happens again. Happened so often during the program that it was unwatchable. :(

MY DISH HORROR STORY....

Need to vent...
I am really upset, I managed to be firm but I did not get stupid (like I really wanted to).
anyway I was a Direct customer for 8 years and when I had a billing problem they did nothing to remedy the situation and let me walk without even a call.
I then moved in with my Girlfriend who was a Dish customer and I thought lets upgrade to HD. Made the call and they charged my CC on the spot. This was 3+ weeks ago and today was our install day. I stayed home from work for the 8-12 install. Never did we get a confirmation call but Dish confirmed the install over the phone when we called them. 12:02 the guy shows up. Talks to me like a 2 year old. Told him I am an Electronics Tech and have installed plenty of Home theaters and Direct TV systems and that I have researched this topic on dbstalk and on here.
Continues to talk to me like a 3 year old. Then tells me he can not install the dish where the other one was because it was not strong enough to support the dish, no problem. I told him ours was on the roof of the apartment (2 story building maybe 25 feet tall).
He then changes the story and tells me that he doesn't have a permisson from the apartment manager to drill a new hole for the additional cables, even though dish is installed in two units and charter cable is in the other two and when I told him we do have permission and I will call the manager to verify he changes his story again and says he can not install on roof because the dish mount has to be on the side of a building not on a flat rooftop. The guy walks to his truck and I notice all he has is an 8 foot extension ladder and a bunch of boxes. He tells me if i call a retailer and buy another system that they will install the system but since he works directly for DISH they have higher standards and is talking the equipment with him.
I ask him about a two dish install, he said that is not an option/won't work. I get on the phone with DISH Customer Service and him and explain the situation.
He leaves. Dish tells me to call a retailer and place the order. It shouldn't be THAT much MORE the tell me. Oh yeah your refund will be credited back to you in 10-15 business days.
Only thing theyadmitted to was that someone should have called to verify the install.
Now my cardinals are on in HD in less that 2 hours and seeing as they are playing like dirt, I won't get a chance to see them before they are knocked out of the playoffs by the damn padres.

I have never felt so insulted about the way I was treated. I asked the installer and the CSR why they thought I shouldn't be upset after taking the day off and the installer missing the install time. The installer said tuff and the CSR said the 8-12 is not really 8-12, it just means you get installed before the afternnon guys.
I got so pissed my Girlfriend had to finish the call before I was rude to someone.

Sorry for the rant, I am just hot under the collar (still) and missing my HD...

Jamie

Great letter, Doug!!

Count me in and my girlfriend, that only leaves 98 more....

jamie

OK -- I've done an initial draft of the boycott letter. I have some reservations about making this into a free-for-all group editing project, but I think it's imperative that we come up with something that addresses the key issues and which the maximum number of people can support with their online signature.

So, bear in mind that we're going to need to compromise and focus on what is achievable through this sort of action. For example, if we say "no logo, no way," that's unreasonable and none of our other issues will be taken seriously.

I need to speak with an AVS moderator about whether they would allow us to host the letter and advertiser list here as a separate thread. I know that AVS has resisted being the delivery vehicle for boycotts in the past -- most notably with the Sunday Ticket protests back in 2005. If they won't allow us to host this here, we will need to find a volunteer to handle this for us, along with a direct URL link -- for example, www.boycottkdskhd.com.

Bear in mind this is a pretty rough draft -- at this point, I ask that you focus on content/message, rather than syntax, spelling, etc. The cosmetic stuff can be addressed later.
___________________________________________________________

We, the undersigned, are writing in a final attempt to gain your attention and your support in addressing the chronic failure of your staff to professionally manage KSDK's digital television broadcasts. Many of the viewers who have signed onto this document have made multiple attempts, through direct contact with station management or duty staff, to make you aware of shortcomings in your presentation of high-definition programming from the national NBC network.

But despite frequent communication with you and your organization, nothing changes.

The following are our grivances:

1. Failure to Switch to HD Programming in a Timely Manner. This is the number one problem -- frequently your engineering staff fail to switch to and properly transmit the high-definition feed of prime-time network programming. In some cases, your staff fail to switch to the HD feed when an HD program is originated by the national network. More common is the situation where the HD feed is correctly transmitted from the start of a program, but after a commercial break the program returns in standard definition, sometimes continuing in SD for only a few minutes, but more frequently until the next (or some subsequent) break for commercials. In many cases, once a switch to SD occurs, the HD feed will remain AWOL for the remainder of the program.

No other station in St. Louis comes anywhere close to matching KSDK in this regard. We believe that this is simply a matter of inattention or incompetence by your engineering staff. All evidence points to the fact that this problem can be fixed if you really care about fixing it.

2. Failure in Handling of "Tape-Delayed" HD. It appears that KSDK is the only station in St. Louis able to delay and stream network HD programming that is temporarily pre-empted by local programming, and we commend you for investing in this capability. These pre-emptions happen most commonly with the sports specials for the Rams or Cardinals that you periodically air, resulting in the delayed start of "The Tonight Show with Jay Leno." "Saturday Night Live" is another network HD program that is routinely delayed for your expanded weekend news broadcasts.

Unfortunately, the delayed broadcasts are generally unwatchable, due to the fact that random horizontal streaks of flashing color appear during playback. These streaks first appeared during the early part of the 2005-06 "Saturday Night Live" delayed broadcasts. At one point, the problem appeared to have been fixed, but in recent months it has returned.

The fact that this problem has occurred again and gone on for several months without being addressed leads us to one of two conclusions: Either you don't bother monitoring your HD broadcast or you don't care. In either event, we as viewers find your performance unacceptable.

3. Failure to Properly Relay Surround Audio. There are also repeated problems with your handling of Dolby Digital sound. This typically results in missing center channel information, which unfortunately means no dialog is heard during that program, making the program impossible to comprehend. On other occasions, the front and rear channels have been flip-flopped, and occasionally there is random static in one or more audio channels.

This is another example of KSDK not monitoring what it is transmitting, or simply not caring about serious problems with its digital/HD broadcasts. Asking that you pay attention to what you're sending into our homes does not seem unreasonable.

4. Disruptive Placement of the KSDK Station Logo. There are multiple problems here, beginning with the fact that your NBC network programing already includes a small and generally discrete logo -- while we'd prefer to have no logo at all (we know what channel we're watching), we recognize and understand the realities of branding and promotion.

But then, KSDK adds its own logo, which is enormous and is exacerbated by the fact that you place it in a different area of the screen from the network logo. One logo is a distraction, but your handling of the second logo accomplishes nothing other than to announce that you have no sense of visual style.

Further, your local station logo is opaque, which creates a minor -- but real -- potential for phosphor "burn-in" damage on CRT- or plasma-based consumer displays. In addition to being opaque, your local logo is so bright that you can often view the edges of the graphic overlay surrounding the logo text.

We urge you to eliminate your local station logo, or at minimum, show it only for 10 or 15 seconds at the beginning of a program or after a return from commercial break. What we're essentially suggesting here is that KSDK show some visual common sense and a just little bit of commercial restraint.

A final honest point about onscreen logos. We vehemently resent the fact that your logos appear only during programming, not during commercial breaks. But we're not naive, we recognize that advertisers probably don't like having your logo intruding on there advertising pitch. Well, we feel just as strongly about the fact that you are indifferent to viewer concerns, but apparently will bend over backward for advertisers. Viewers create advertisers.


As noted in the first paragraph of this letter, many of the undersigned here have contacted you over the past few years to make you aware of your many digital/HD broadcast problems. You've ignored us, so we have decided to take a completely different approach going forward.

Effective immediately, all of the undersigned pledge to boycott all of the advertisers who appear on your local HD news broadcasts. We won't listen to their advertising messages, and we most definitely will not buy their products or services. While we recognize that this is somewhat unfair to the advertisers (after all, they aren't the ones making us unhappy), this seems to be our only hope of gaining the attention of KSDK station management.

This letter and a list of current KSDK news program advertisers will be maintained online at www.wwwwwwwww.www. These boycotts will remain in place until KSDK successfully addresses complaints 1-4 for seven consecutive days. In addition, the boycott is contingent on you addressing in some meaningful manner our complaints about your local station logo -- there is wide scope for improvement on how you handle your logo, and we're prepared to provide you some leeway in how you address our concerns.

Once the boycott is lifted, this letter and list of news program advertisers will be removed. However, if we document a minimum of three reoccurences of issues 1-4 during any subsequent 10-day period, the letter and advertiser list will be reinstated, and the boycott will recommence.

We look forward to your prompt action in addressing our grievances.
___________________________________________________________

Doug:

Have you considered posting this over at stlmedia.net on the KSDK board?

Pink,

I'd never heard of stlmedia.net, but it sounds promising. When I went over there to have a look at the message board, I needed to register. But when I tried to register, I was informed that subscriptions were disabled and that only staff members can create new accounts.

Sounds like it might be a dead end, but if you know a way around this, let me know.

My bedroom DISH 622 failed today. It's working, but will not download the program guide. I called AHDTS, explained the issue, told the tech the diagnostics I had run (soft/hard resets, check-switch, etc), to which he replied, not much more I can do. Gave me a RA # and said "you'll have a new box on Thursday."

Their support is good, as long as, you can keep their installers out of your house.

Received my 6.3a on my Tivo the other day. Was is this feature they call folders. When I pull up my "Now Playing List" I have an option to turn on groups but other than that everything looks the same. Do I need, lets say, 2 episodes L&O to create a folder.

Pink,

I'd never heard of stlmedia.net, but it sounds promising. When I went over there to have a look at the message board, I needed to register. But when I tried to register, I was informed that subscriptions were disabled and that only staff members can create new accounts.

Sounds like it might be a dead end, but if you know a way around this, let me know.

I belong. Shall I copy it, and post it there?

Do I need, lets say, 2 episodes L&O to create a folder.

You are correct.
Multiple episodes automatically get their own folder when grouped.
Hopefully you are noticing increases guide speed etc.

Still no 6.3x for me :(

Token

Token,

Thanks for the reply. I'll see what happens tonight. The guide seemed faster but I need to play with it more.

Pink,

I'd like to keep the letter and the advertiser list at one central location. But once we've got the letter finalized, you could post a message explaining the boycott and then a link to the letter/advertiser list/signatures.

What's the membership and focus of www.stlmedia.net?

OK -- I've done an initial draft of the boycott letter. I have some reservations about making this into a free-for-all group editing project, but I think it's imperative that we come up with something that addresses the key issues and which the maximum number of people can support with their online signature.

So, bear in mind that we're going to need to compromise and focus on what is achievable through this sort of action. For example, if we say "no logo, no way," that's unreasonable and none of our other issues will be taken seriously.

I need to speak with an AVS moderator about whether they would allow us to host the letter and advertiser list here as a separate thread. I know that AVS has resisted being the delivery vehicle for boycotts in the past -- most notably with the Sunday Ticket protests back in 2005. If they won't allow us to host this here, we will need to find a volunteer to handle this for us, along with a direct URL link -- for example, www.boycottkdskhd.com.

Bear in mind this is a pretty rough draft -- at this point, I ask that you focus on content/message, rather than syntax, spelling, etc. The cosmetic stuff can be addressed later.
___________________________________________________________

We, the undersigned, are writing in a final attempt to gain your attention and your support in addressing the chronic failure of your staff to professionally manage KSDK's digital television broadcasts. Many of the viewers who have signed onto this document have made multiple attempts, through direct contact with station management or duty staff, to make you aware of shortcomings in your presentation of high-definition programming from the national NBC network.

But despite frequent communication with you and your organization, nothing changes.

The following are our grivances:

1. Failure to Switch to HD Programming in a Timely Manner. This is the number one problem -- frequently your engineering staff fail to switch to and properly transmit the high-definition feed of prime-time network programming. In some cases, your staff fail to switch to the HD feed when an HD program is originated by the national network. More common is the situation where the HD feed is correctly transmitted from the start of a program, but after a commercial break the program returns in standard definition, sometimes continuing in SD for only a few minutes, but more frequently until the next (or some subsequent) break for commercials. In many cases, once a switch to SD occurs, the HD feed will remain AWOL for the remainder of the program.

No other station in St. Louis comes anywhere close to matching KSDK in this regard. We believe that this is simply a matter of inattention or incompetence by your engineering staff. All evidence points to the fact that this problem can be fixed if you really care about fixing it.

2. Failure in Handling of "Tape-Delayed" HD. It appears that KSDK is the only station in St. Louis able to delay and stream network HD programming that is temporarily pre-empted by local programming, and we commend you for investing in this capability. These pre-emptions happen most commonly with the sports specials for the Rams or Cardinals that you periodically air, resulting in the delayed start of "The Tonight Show with Jay Leno." "Saturday Night Live" is another network HD program that is routinely delayed for your expanded weekend news broadcasts.

Unfortunately, the delayed broadcasts are generally unwatchable, due to the fact that random horizontal streaks of flashing color appear during playback. These streaks first appeared during the early part of the 2005-06 "Saturday Night Live" delayed broadcasts. At one point, the problem appeared to have been fixed, but in recent months it has returned.

The fact that this problem has occurred again and gone on for several months without being addressed leads us to one of two conclusions: Either you don't bother monitoring your HD broadcast or you don't care. In either event, we as viewers find your performance unacceptable.

3. Failure to Properly Relay Surround Audio. There are also repeated problems with your handling of Dolby Digital sound. This typically results in missing center channel information, which unfortunately means no dialog is heard during that program, making the program impossible to comprehend. On other occasions, the front and rear channels have been flip-flopped, and occasionally there is random static in one or more audio channels.

This is another example of KSDK not monitoring what it is transmitting, or simply not caring about serious problems with its digital/HD broadcasts. Asking that you pay attention to what you're sending into our homes does not seem unreasonable.

4. Disruptive Placement of the KSDK Station Logo. There are multiple problems here, beginning with the fact that your NBC network programing already includes a small and generally discrete logo -- while we'd prefer to have no logo at all (we know what channel we're watching), we recognize and understand the realities of branding and promotion.

But then, KSDK adds its own logo, which is enormous and is exacerbated by the fact that you place it in a different area of the screen from the network logo. One logo is a distraction, but your handling of the second logo accomplishes nothing other than to announce that you have no sense of visual style.

Further, your local station logo is opaque, which creates a minor -- but real -- potential for phosphor "burn-in" damage on CRT- or plasma-based consumer displays. In addition to being opaque, your local logo is so bright that you can often view the edges of the graphic overlay surrounding the logo text.

We urge you to eliminate your local station logo, or at minimum, show it only for 10 or 15 seconds at the beginning of a program or after a return from commercial break. What we're essentially suggesting here is that KSDK show some visual common sense and a just little bit of commercial restraint.

A final honest point about onscreen logos. We vehemently resent the fact that your logos appear only during programming, not during commercial breaks. But we're not naive, we recognize that advertisers probably don't like having your logo intruding on there advertising pitch. Well, we feel just as strongly about the fact that you are indifferent to viewer concerns, but apparently will bend over backward for advertisers. Viewers create advertisers.


As noted in the first paragraph of this letter, many of the undersigned here have contacted you over the past few years to make you aware of your many digital/HD broadcast problems. You've ignored us, so we have decided to take a completely different approach going forward.

Effective immediately, all of the undersigned pledge to boycott all of the advertisers who appear on your local HD news broadcasts. We won't listen to their advertising messages, and we most definitely will not buy their products or services. While we recognize that this is somewhat unfair to the advertisers (after all, they aren't the ones making us unhappy), this seems to be our only hope of gaining the attention of KSDK station management.

This letter and a list of current KSDK news program advertisers will be maintained online at www.wwwwwwwww.www. These boycotts will remain in place until KSDK successfully addresses complaints 1-4 for seven consecutive days. In addition, the boycott is contingent on you addressing in some meaningful manner our complaints about your local station logo -- there is wide scope for improvement on how you handle your logo, and we're prepared to provide you some leeway in how you address our concerns.

Once the boycott is lifted, this letter and list of news program advertisers will be removed. However, if we document a minimum of three reoccurences of issues 1-4 during any subsequent 10-day period, the letter and advertiser list will be reinstated, and the boycott will recommence.

We look forward to your prompt action in addressing our grievances.
___________________________________________________________

Oh my god, how insulting! Calling them incompetent, etc.....certainly not the way to get someone to modify their behavior. I can tell you are not a manager or had any management training. I predict this will give them a big laugh, and you will be maintaining your little web experiment for the rest of your life.

Here we go again.

you guys are assuming KSDK cares about their HD broadcast. Guess what- they don't. They just want to use it as a marketing tool against the other stations.

you guys are assuming KSDK cares about their HD broadcast. Guess what- they don't. They just want to use it as a marketing tool against the other stations.
I believe, and also believe everyone involved knows it is all about marketing and revenue to KSKD. Thus, the reason Doug's strategy is to target their advertisers.

I believe, and also believe everyone involved knows it is all about marketing and revenue to KSKD. Thus, the reason Doug's strategy is to target their advertisers.

Advertisers don't care either. If they did, you'd be watching the commercials in HD. Submit the petition and you'll get a nice little form letter reply back, if any at all.

What are the numbers as of this year? 10% of STL households have HD? Even less? How many of them even know what they are watching isn't what it should be? Not many, I'm sure.

OK, I have to ask again.... Am I the only one having trouble w/ FOX2-DT?

Last night I had many breakups and the signal strenght was jumping from the 20s to the 90s. It messed up during Prison Break and Vanished and now its doing basically the same thing tonight while I'm trying to watch the Yankess-Tigers game.

All of my other stations are the same signal strenght as always and my antenna is in the attic, so a repoint doesn't *seem* like it would be necessary.

Any advice, similar problems, etc?

im having no issues with KTVI tonight. Have had it on since 7. Perfect 100 signal.

Winston,
It's fine here also. 89/100 on the Dish OTA tuner, no break-ups.

Look at it this way...at least it's no longer 180° up there now :eek:

audio,

I understand your points. But I'd value your opinion more if it was based on something other than unconditional surrender.

There's not a lot that I really believe in, but I do believe in markets and how supply and demand can be dictate change. If every viewer in the country decided to stop watching X station because they didn't like the station logo, I guarantee you that logo would die overnight. Of course, getting that sort of universal coordination is impossible, but if you get enough people to draw a line in the sand, things can change.

That's all I'm trying to accomplish here - maybe it helps, maybe it doesn't. But it's highly unlikely to make things worse and I'm fed up with the status quo. Is there a chance that I'm wasting my time? Absolutely no doubt about it.

But it's not like I'm signing on for a daily 40-mile march uphill. I'll take my best shot and let the chips fall where they fall. If you want to help that's great, but if you don't that's fine, too.

i completely agree with you guys. KSDK's HD broadcast is completely unacceptable. However, I think you guys are barking up the wrong tree. Contacting advertisers won't do anything in this case. You need to contact the network. Networks are very protective of their programming, and if one of their affiliates is not up to par in terms of the broadcast being "watchable" (and recently, some haven't), trust me they will get involved.

i completely agree with you guys. KSDK's HD broadcast is completely unacceptable. However, I think you guys are barking up the wrong tree. Contacting advertisers won't do anything in this case. You need to contact the network. Networks are very protective of their programming, and if one of their affiliates is not up to par in terms of the broadcast being "watchable" (and recently, some haven't), trust me they will get involved.
Contacting the network is an excellent idea, imo.
Why not contact KSKD, Gannett, Sponsors and the Network...then let the chips fall as they may.

OK, I have to ask again.... Am I the only one having trouble w/ FOX2-DT?

Last night I had many breakups and the signal strenght was jumping from the 20s to the 90s. It messed up during Prison Break and Vanished and now its doing basically the same thing tonight while I'm trying to watch the Yankess-Tigers game.

All of my other stations are the same signal strenght as always and my antenna is in the attic, so a repoint doesn't *seem* like it would be necessary.

Any advice, similar problems, etc?

No problems here, I have a signal of 93 through my vip622 with antenna in the attic.
I was watching it OTA but switched to the Dish HD feed so I could record Veronica Mars on KPLR. Seeing no problems with Dish's feed either. KPLR had only been showing in the low 60's for me untill tonight, now its at an 83.

ya, it seems KPLR finally hit the "power" switch on their broadcast tower today. Hopefully the signal will stay this strong, or get even stronger, and it's not just a 1-day thing since they broadcasted the game earlier

audio and Ken,

I'm happy to include NBC or any other point where pressure and/or exposure is helpful in lighting a bonfire of competence at kSDk.

Let's plan on getting the letter finalized by Friday and start the process of getting people to add messages of agreement to it once it's available. Once we have at least 100 signatures, we can send it wherever we think it might generate some heat. But in my opinion, there's no point in sending anything anywhere until we have a respectable number of people signing on and 100 feels like the right sort of bare minimum.

I think targeting sponsors could be useful, because it only takes one sponsor to switch to another station's news program for the message to get across. I don't know that we can accomplish that without getting a few thousand signatures (which I know is unlikely). But if we get enough maybe we can at least make the boycott "a talking point" for an advertiser/potential advertiser and a kSDk ad salesperson.

In my experience, there's nothing more powerful/dangerous than a sales manager who goes on the internal warpath about obstacles to sales that are created by the company they work for.

Then again, if there's a general consensus here that playing the sponsor angle is wrong, then I'm prepared to change course. But I firmly believe that we need a letter that involves some sort of concrete action, rather just a litany of complaints.

We've been there and done that -- look what that's bought us.

My bedroom DISH 622 failed today. It's working, but will not download the program guide. I called AHDTS, explained the issue, told the tech the diagnostics I had run (soft/hard resets, check-switch, etc), to which he replied, not much more I can do. Gave me a RA # and said "you'll have a new box on Thursday."

Their support is good, as long as, you can keep their installers out of your house.

Ken, I just replaced my 4th 622 today!!! From what I hear their may be a problem with overheating with these and causing all kinds of problems. Receiver #4 was replaced for a bad fan. I've had an HD failure, lock-up's, reboots, and let's not talk about HDMI not working. They keep saying that it's software related, but now I could be heat causing the solder getting hot and causing opens on the board. My last receiver had a HD temp of 125F. With all the problems I've had with them since Feb, (Billing, missed appointments with both receiver and 1000+ installs, equipment failures, update screw-ups), if this receiver goes out I'm thinking of dumping them.

ya, it seems KPLR finally hit the "power" switch on their broadcast tower today. Hopefully the signal will stay this strong, or get even stronger, and it's not just a 1-day thing since they broadcasted the game earlier

This should be the end of it. The radio stations who's tower was being worked on is finished, as per what I heard on KHITS.

Thanks for the info regarding KTVI-DT.

I guess I'm going to end up in the attic in the next couple of days.

Did anyone else watch Veronica Mars tonight. Picture sucked, I was wondering if anyone knew if it was HD or the Digital Widescreen like Fox likes to use sometimes.
Better than it was on channel 46 but I expected more I guess.
What did everyone think of todays ball games? I thought the picture quality on both the Cards and Yanks games looked pretty good. My first baseball playoffs since I got the HD set. Pretty impressed with the first day of games.

Ken, I just replaced my 4th 622 today!!! From what I hear their may be a problem with overheating with these and causing all kinds of problems. Receiver #4 was replaced for a bad fan. I've had an HD failure, lock-up's, reboots, and let's not talk about HDMI not working. They keep saying that it's software related, but now I could be heat causing the solder getting hot and causing opens on the board. My last receiver had a HD temp of 125F. With all the problems I've had with them since Feb, (Billing, missed appointments with both receiver and 1000+ installs, equipment failures, update screw-ups), if this receiver goes out I'm thinking of dumping them.
Yes Chuck, I also believe overheating is an issue. So much so, way back in the beginning, I added an external USB fan aimed at the vent holes in the 622. It drops the average temp in "Counters" to 91°.

At least the USB ports are "hot" for power, as they're worthless with other than a PocketDish. Though, last year, I did connect a thumb drive with jpg's for a slide-show of family pix during the holidays. I suppose not totally worthless :o

Anyway, back to the fan, they were about $12./ea, and even the 622 which is enclosed in an entertainment center averages only 103°.

I agree, whether it be a software or hardware failure, I think many 622 failures are heat related. Thinking back, when I first activated this 622, it required several restarts before it would download the EPG info. I shuda know then something was up.

Overall, I've been very lucky (knocking on my head) with DISH. Equipment, installs, and service have not been any issue, and I've never had a billing issue. It's just the luck of the draw. Charter, for example, I've spent 8 months trying to get them to bury a cable they strung across the back of my property to connect one box to another. Emails, phone calls, techs here 3 times and that orange monster is still strung through trees, bushes, and across fences to keep it off the ground. In contrast, my neighbor across the street has been with Charter for 10+ years, and never had any issues...just luck.

It's almost as if someone from KSDK has been reading this thread, and thought...well, if you think that was bad, wait until you see what's in store for you tonight on Leno. Truly comical!

Doug,
If I burn the DISH HD recording on to a DVD, will it still show all of blocking, break-ups and lines across the screen? I know it will only burn in SD, but I'm wondering if all the garbage will still show up. I have a good DVD burner. Be nice if someone could put it on an HD DVD....Joe? Any chance of that being a possibilty?

If you haven't watched it yet, do yourself a favor, and don't.

ya, it seems KPLR finally hit the "power" switch on their broadcast tower today. Hopefully the signal will stay this strong, or get even stronger, and it's not just a 1-day thing since they broadcasted the game earlier


Agreed. I'm actually getting a decent signal now, in the 70 range or so for KPLR. Alas, I have no sound. Not sure what the problem is there...

What did everyone think of todays ball games? I thought the picture quality on both the Cards and Yanks games looked pretty good. My first baseball playoffs since I got the HD set. Pretty impressed with the first day of games.

I watched the first couple of innings of the Cards game on ESPN and thought the picture was excellent. The Twins/Athletics game on before looked good as well. I also caught the last couple of innings of the Yankees/Tigers game and thought it looked great.

Though I get FOX HD through Dish Network and can't see a difference between it and the OTA signal.

Though I get FOX HD through Dish Network and can't see a difference between it and the OTA signal.
I have found the live sports broadcasts more noticeable between the Dish LiL DT and OTA. I suppose it's personal preference :) When I swap tuners directly between the Dish HD and the OTA HD, the Dish HD seems a bit softer to me. I could not do it on the ESPN HD games, but viewed the FOX game on OTA.
We view and record all live sports via off-air.

It's not as noticeable to me in studio produced events, though I still see it somewhat. It stands to reason, the Dish signal has to travel so 20K miles, and go through compression before we view it. The OTA, in a perfect world, should be squeaky clean.

It's almost as if someone from KSDK has been reading this thread, and thought...well, if you think that was bad, wait until you see what's in store for you tonight on Leno. Truly comical!

Doug,
If I burn the DISH HD recording on to a DVD, will it still show all of blocking, break-ups and lines across the screen? I know it will only burn in SD, but I'm wondering if all the garbage will still show up.

If you haven't watched it yet, do yourself a favor, and don't.

I think showing the problems might be a next logical step in this organized protest of the problems at KSDK. I can envision an informational picket in front of the studio with large blowups of the quality of HD images from "The St. Louis high definition leader." I can do screen grabs and prints of the severe blocking issues that have been evident in all the KSDK broadcasts since they started doing the WeatherPlus multicast. Other stations' news departments might find the story an interesting one.

Doug,

How about something along these lines for the petition:

While we applaud the efforts by KSDK to broadcast local news in high definition, we cannot agree with KSDK's claim of being the high defintion leader in St. Louis. In the two areas that matter most, picture quality and responsiveness to its viewers, KSDK falls seriously short of some of its local competition.

Since the addition of the WeatherPlus multicast, image quality has deteriorated seriously. (We could include some illustrative screen captures here, perhaps even showing some similar shots of KMOV shows under identical conditions.)

In terms of its responsiveness to the viewers of its digital broadcasts, KSDK has demonstrated repeatedly that it either cannot or will not fix the often-cited problems in those broadcasts. (Perhaps we could point out how KDNL responds to its viewers' concerns so quickly.)

Feel free to include, modify or discard any of this.

I'm serious about the picket, though. Armed with the right information, we could make even a simple picket a powerful tool to get some attention. I'll have to ask my godfather, but I think he'd be willing to go with me for a while on such a crusade, wheelchair and all. He was one of the first teachers on the picket line when St. Louis teachers went on strike in the early 70s.

I just played back my recording of the Smallville season premiere. It played in 2 channel Pro Logic on both the HD Tivo and the FusionHDTV card. Any idea what's up with this??????????

DISH Wins Stay on DVR Activity in TiVo Case

The following story is from today's SkyREPORT newsletter:
________________________________________________________

The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit granted the request of EchoStar to stay the permanent injunction against it preventing the satellite company from making, using and selling certain DVR products. The decision, stemming from a highly public court case with DVR-technology company TiVo, comes months after a Texas District Court ruled against EchoStar over a patent infringement lawsuit.

The case will now advance to the appeals process, and EchoStar will remain able to distribute the associated DVR models until a further decision. The company also assured its customers that they will not be disrupted during the process.
________________________________________________________

To read the full story, go to www.skyreport.com

Joe,

Are you suggesting that we dump the boycott idea and do a picket instead, or do the picket as well?

I may be wrong about this, but I think a picket needs media coverage to have any chance of having an impact. In my experience as a journalist many years ago, there seems to be an unwritten and unspoken rule that media companies don't drag other media companies through the mud. Or at least not until there's already plenty of mud on one them and the story can no longer be ignored.

Ken,

I didn't see Leno last night, but on Monday night it was pretty horrific. Hard to imagine it being worse, but bedrock may be end up being the lower limit here.

Yes, all of the problems would show up in either a DVD or an HD DVD recording.

One thing that should probably be checked out is whether such recordings or screen captures could be made and distributed under fair use. I think you could ultimately make the case that such recordings and images were legitimate, particularly since there's no profit motive involved. But it might open up a legal angle that kSDk could use if that activity caused them a problem.

Ken,

I didn't see Leno last night, but on Tuesday night it was pretty horrific. Hard to imagine it being worse, but bedrock may be end up being the lower limit here.

Doug

I usually watch ONLY the monologue from Leno and Dave every night. I could not watch Leno last night and I am really only interested in the audio. Last night there was very little audio, constant switching between HD and SD, and the usual ripping of the HD image. I only watched for about 5 minutes so I don't know if they fixed the issues.

Put me down for a signature.

Walt

OK, I have to ask again.... Am I the only one having trouble w/ FOX2-DT?

I'm also noticed some brief drop outs during the beginning half of Prison Break (2-5 seconds) via OTA on my HR10 Tivo. Fox is my strongest signal consistently in the 90's.

I have also been noticing them on CBS but I assumed it was my signal since I'm in the low 70's for CBS.

Now I'm beginning to wonder if its Tivo related (I'm still on 3.15x).

Good luck,
Token

On the various KTVI questions, I don't watch a lot of FOX programming, but I was tuned into the early parts of the Yanks-Twins game last night on DirecTV channel 88. During roughly a 30-minute period, there were approximately a half-dozen dropouts, to the point where the screen went completely black (though I believe audio continued).

Is it possible that this is the same thing that others are reporting with KTVI-DT FOX on other programming (in other words, could this be a sign of network issues)?

Charter, for all their horrible CS, sure get things done fast when it involves their money!

I turned on the TV monday to a surprise: "There is a problem with your account status, please contact customer service".

Uh-Oh.

Of course I didn't call CS, I just logged in to my online Charter account and was shocked to see that my account had been turned off for not paying my bill...surprising since I always pay it. Apparently what had happened was I forget a zero when paying my last bill online (Guess I should take my time better now). And although an account should be turned off for being in default, I was surprised that mine had been turned off without a either a phone call, "final notice" snail or e-mail. Not very good customer service, imo. Afterall, I made an honest (stupid) mistake and wasn't even given a chance to correct it.

As I hit "Pay Now" and paid the balance, within literally 5 seconds my TV came back. I was shocked that it got turned back on so fast. They love that money!

Doug

I usually watch ONLY the monologue from Leno and Dave every night. I could not watch Leno last night and I am really only interested in the audio. Last night there was very little audio, constant switching between HD and SD, and the usual ripping of the HD image. I only watched for about 5 minutes so I don't know if they fixed the issues.

Put me down for a signature.

Walt

I tured Leno on like halfway through and watched the rest of it, as well as Conan. I did not see 1 second of HD. Their solution to the problem last night was to just forget about HD completely and turn it off

On the letter, IMHO send it to KSDK, then carbon copy the advertisers as well as the network. In my business the best way to get things done is to make the affected people aware as well as the boss of the person you need to change the behavior of. Most importantly list the names of those you carbon on the copy that goes to KSDK.


As far as the 622 goes now you all have me worried. Your problems make me more comfortable with my choice to also keep my 942. As I made everyone aware I need that HDMI port to work and I keep reading about problems with it. Also a question, on the overheating: I would put it in the basement (cooler than upstairs) which I assume would help some. My electronics rack is an "open" one. Will these two things help enough to keep the 622 from overheating?

As far as Fox2 goes, I can tell you with an amp of some sort, I don't get it. I just had to
modify my setup of wires due to a new dish install and because of this I had to take
the antenna out of a amp set up for my upstairs and now I don't get channel 2 at all.

In my basement it runs through an amp and it is fine.

Joe,

Are you suggesting that we dump the boycott idea and do a picket instead, or do the picket as well?

I may be wrong about this, but I think a picket needs media coverage to have any chance of having an impact. In my experience as a journalist many years ago, there seems to be an unwritten and unspoken rule that media companies don't drag other media companies through the mud. Or at least not until there's already plenty of mud on one them and the story can no longer be ignored.

I was suggesting the picket as a next step, if they don't make things right.

My electronics rack is an "open" one. Will these two things help enough to keep the 622 from overheating?
Shelf spacing/rear closure on an "open" rack can be an issue. The cooling area of the 622 is to the rear of the unit, left side, as you're facing it.

As example, if your rack is closed to the rear, and there is, say 4" of space to the next shelf, that is similar conditions to being enclosed. OTOH, if air can circulate through from back to front of your rack, and there is 6-8" of spacing to the next shelf, any hot air should be able to escape.

I use the fan on both of my units, though I don't think it is necessary on one of them. It is placed alone, on a glass shelf, above the TV...nothing above it, and nothing to the sides. Still, the fan keeps it 20+° cooler, it can only help.

Shelf spacing/rear closure on an "open" rack can be an issue. The cooling area of the 622 is to the rear of the unit, left side, as you're facing it.

As example, if your rack is closed to the rear, and there is, say 4" of space to the next shelf, that is similar conditions to being enclosed. OTOH, if air can circulate through from back to front of your rack, and there is 6-8" of spacing to the next shelf, any hot air should be able to escape.

I use the fan on both of my units, though I don't think it is necessary on one of them. It is placed alone, on a glass shelf, above the TV...nothing above it, and nothing to the sides. Still, the fan keeps it 20+° cooler, it can only help.


The open rack has no "walls" at all. Just 3 shelves. Similar to this: http://www.amazon.com/Bush-Audio-Component-Rack-AD47741/dp/B000069JWY/sr=1-24/qid=1159977119/ref=sr_1_24/104-1967226-8969513?ie=UTF8&s=electronics

Another general question. Will I have any trouble splitting my OTA signal to go to both the 942 and 622? I have 90-100 on almost all important locals I believe.

While we applaud the efforts by KSDK to broadcast local news in high definition, we cannot agree with KSDK's claim of being the high defintion leader in St. Louis. In the two areas that matter most, picture quality and responsiveness to its viewers, KSDK falls seriously short of some of its local competition.


I like this opening paragraph.

Ken,

I didn't see Leno last night, but on Monday night it was pretty horrific. Hard to imagine it being worse, but bedrock may be end up being the lower limit here.

Yes, all of the problems would show up in either a DVD or an HD DVD recording.

One thing that should probably be checked out is whether such recordings or screen captures could be made and distributed under fair use. I think you could ultimately make the case that such recordings and images were legitimate, particularly since there's no profit motive involved. But it might open up a legal angle that kSDk could use if that activity caused them a problem.

I don't think screen captures would violate any laws. Such caps are posted all over AVS with events such as the HBO showing of Star Wars III recently. Such screen captures (or even short clips), when used for reviews, are allowed.

Thanks for the info regarding KTVI-DT.

I guess I'm going to end up in the attic in the next couple of days.

Before you head to the attic, I suggest reading about multi-path issues first. They can be a real pain to resolve. My antenna is inside right now and I'm having problems with NBC. I get the same sort of numbers. It will drop for a second to the 20's and run up to around 80. It will bounce between those ranges.

In my research I have read about using FM traps working if there is a station nearby, attenuators, a larger antenna, slight tilt up on antenna, etc. I have found that sometimes, the slightest change in antenna placement often works.