^^^^

Less is more.

It's the DirecTV feed for FOX HD in NYC.

I would like it because I'd love to see some of the local NY news coverage of things. I am a news junkie and when I go on vacation, I always sit and watch a showing of a local news affiliate.

While we are on the topic of channel 88...

I still get 88 after activating the HR20, so like others have said, it is a crap shoot as to
whether you get to keep it or not.

While we are on the topic of channel 88...

I still get 88 after activating the HR20, so like others have said, it is a crap shoot as to
whether you get to keep it or not.

True,

Some (Dean) had it taken away after activating a 2nd HR10.

Some of us also still get the East/West coast feeds in Standard Def. Not sure why, but may have to do with being grandfathered in or something.

Like Joe likes to watch New York news, I like to watch the LA news on 383.

Scott

Just FYI I have near perfect HD DVR-MS recordings of all games of the WS as well as postgame. I also recorded the parade off KSDK's OTA feed, but I had some antenna issues during the first part of it.

Edit: anybody know a good way to archive these monstrous files? They are about 20GB each :eek:

^^^^

Less is more.

LOL!!!

I'm going WAY off topic here for a moment, but I thought there might be some interest in some analytical-type stories looking back at the Cardinals World Series win as well as how the 2007 team roster might play out financially.

Probably best not to discuss the specifics of these articles here. If you really feel the need to comment, register at the respective web sites and post your thoughts there. I'll be checking the comment sections myself later on...

Or maybe you want to consider saving one or more of these lengthy gems for the cold, dark days of January, when Cardinal baseball seems only a faint glow in the distance.

"St. Louis Cardinals: Onward Ho!" (http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2006/10/st_louis_cardin.php) by Rich Lederer from the Baseball Analysts web site

"How the Cardinals Shocked the World* and Won the World Series" (http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/how-the-cardinals-shocked-the-world-and-won-the-world-series/) by Brian Gunn from The Hardball Times web site

"Right As Rain" (http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/story/2006/10/30/6113/8307) by lboros from the Viva El Birdos web site

FWIW, Brian Gunn used to write one of the very best baseball blogs I've come across, even though I often disagreed with his point of view. I recall reading somewhere that Brian's life dream was to be a baseball writer for the Post-Dispatch, but I actually think he's too good to be restrained by the column-inches limitations of newspaper journalism.

Enjoy!

Next week I'm getting a Channel Master UHF Antenna to use with my Toshiba Plasma. My TV has the build in TV Guide, which works quite well, but has to be able to receive analog Channel 9 to get the EPG info. I currently have a Winegard UHF/VHF/FM antenna and was wondering if I could use the two together, or will the Channel Master be enough to pick up the analog signal? Any suggestions? The reason I need the TV Guide is I plan on getting the Toshiba Symbio HD recorder, and it must use the TV Guide to work. The Wingard is too directional from my location to get all of the digital signals in our area.

SHADO,

I think this may get you pointed in the right direction:

http://www.tvantenna.com/support/tutorials/combining.html

Interesting to read about issues receiving ota hd. While installing my new LCD this past weekend, at one point I ended up with just a 4 foot length of coax connected to the TV. To my surprise I was able to get all the local channels with no problem. If someone would stand near the coax, we would get an occasional blip or two. I am located in the very NW corner of Ofallon, probably one of the higher spots in the area. I connected it to an old antenna in my attic and am very happy at this time..

Hey, Ken (or any Firefox user) I installed Firefox 2 and have been very impressed with it. I'd like to make it my browser of choice, but one thing I really enjoy is the Google Desktop and its Autofill feature. Do you know if Firefox has a plug-in that can fill in web site info automatically - name, address, phone, e-mail?

I'm going WAY off topic here for a moment, but I thought there might be some interest in some analytical-type stories looking back at the Cardinals World Series win as well as how the 2007 team roster might play out financially.

Probably best not to discuss the specifics of these articles here. If you really feel the need to comment, register at the respective web sites and post your thoughts there. I'll be checking the comment sections myself later on...

Or maybe you want to consider saving one or more of these lengthy gems for the cold, dark days of January, when Cardinal baseball seems only a faint glow in the distance.

"St. Louis Cardinals: Onward Ho!" (http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2006/10/st_louis_cardin.php) by Rich Lederer from the Baseball Analysts web site

"How the Cardinals Shocked the World* and Won the World Series" (http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/how-the-cardinals-shocked-the-world-and-won-the-world-series/) by Brian Gunn from The Hardball Times web site

"Right As Rain" (http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/story/2006/10/30/6113/8307) by lboros from the Viva El Birdos web site

FWIW, Brian Gunn used to write one of the very best baseball blogs I've come across, even though I often disagreed with his point of view. I recall reading somewhere that Brian's life dream was to be a baseball writer for the Post-Dispatch, but I actually think he's too good to be restrained by the column-inches limitations of newspaper journalism.

Enjoy!

Very interesting reads, Doug. Thanks.

This Cardinals World Series doesn't feel like any other I can remember - win or lose. It just doesn't seem real. It's as though someone walked up and slapped me. "Wake up," they said. "You just had a bad dream that the Cardinals lost the World Series, but they really won. And why the hell didn't you record it? Idiot!"

And then they punched me in the stomach.

And then they punched me in the stomach.

That's how I've felt at the end of every hockey season since I've lived in St. Louis.

:(

Hey, Ken (or any Firefox user) I installed Firefox 2 and have been very impressed with it. I'd like to make it my browser of choice, but one thing I really enjoy is the Google Desktop and its Autofill feature. Do you know if Firefox has a plug-in that can fill in web site info automatically - name, address, phone, e-mail?Joe,

I'm not a Firefox expert, though I've been using variations on the previous versions for about a year now. For me, the best part of Firefox is the fact that it supports "extensions" that provide all kinds of creative additional functionality. Even the best built-in feature of Firefox -- tabbed browsing -- can be significantly enhanced by the Tab Mix Plus extension.

Another of my favorites is the in-line search functionality provided through the termBlaster extension -- just highlight any word or phrase on a web page, right-click on it and send the term to the search engine or other resource of choice (including language translators, encyclopedia, dictionaries, thesarus, web directories, etc). You can even add to the list of available resources to be used and have them appear in your own customized Quick List. Very, very addictive.

I haven't upgraded to Firefox 2.0 yet, largely because I understand that it "breaks" many of the extensions that worked in the previous versions. On the other hand, some of the additional functionality added to 2.0 is supposedly based on the extensions that made version 1.5 so popular. I don't know if my favorite extensions have been incorporated into the new version, or if the 1.5 extensions work in the new version or not. But I'm waiting for the dust to clear before doing any upgrade.

FWIW, Firefox 2.0 is getting mixed reviews in the computer press. Here's an example of a review at ZDNet that reinforces my instinct to wait -- probably until 2.1 rolls out:

http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=129&tag=nl.e539

Hey, Ken (or any Firefox user) I installed Firefox 2 and have been very impressed with it. I'd like to make it my browser of choice, but one thing I really enjoy is the Google Desktop and its Autofill feature. Do you know if Firefox has a plug-in that can fill in web site info automatically - name, address, phone, e-mail?You want the Google Toolbar for Firefox (http://www.google.com/tools/firefox/toolbar/index.html?utm_source=en-et-more&utm_medium=et&utm_campaign=en). It works with FF 2.0.

I've been using FF 2.0 and most extensions I used with 1.5 have now been updated. For the most part it has worked well for me. V1.5 already had memory problems so that isn't new. I did freeze on me one time while loading a Java Applet. In any case, it sure beats using any version of IE.

A couple of interesting stories on HD DVD and Blu-ray:

Pioneer Delays Blu-ray Player (http://www.tvpredictions.com/pioneerdelay110106.htm)

Study Finds HDTV Early Adopters Confused by New HD Disc Formats (http://www.tvpredictions.com/hdconfused110106.htm)

Of course, the details of the second story are hardly surprising. Every single finding could have been confidently predicted 6 months ago.

Thanks, everyone, for the useful Firefox info. I think I'm hooked.

Here is my latest (and hopefully last) update regarding me, my quest for HD, and DirecTV...

An installer from Premier came out to my house yesterday afternoon, around 3:00pm. I have previously been told by a Premier installer (who came to my house last Friday when it was pouring and my backyard was basically a swamp) that he would have to remove the current Triple LNB pole mount setup, rip up all the trenched wiring and start from scratch. However, the guy who came out yesterday said that was not necessary and that he could get a LoS for all the sats from my current pole and that he thought there was no need to do anything other than swap out the 3-LNB dish for the AT9.

Great, I though. Less destruction to the yard, easier install, and the guy gets out of here sooner. (I had already ran the RG6 to my new HR20 HD-DVR.) Well, he gets the dish assembled and gets a signal, but then determines the current pole is too small and he needs a new pole.

So, he cuts down the current pole, digs a hole (not a very deep one, probably one foot, if that) with a shovel. Then he stuck in concrete and the new pole. Mixed the cement, etc. Then he went into the house and installed the Zinwell multiswitch and terminated the lines into it nicely.

Then, we went back outside and he tried to put the dish on the pole in the concrete. Well, the concrete was not set, so the pole was swaying back and forth as he did it. Then, he had a hard time getting a signal lock on all of the sats. Probably because the pole was swaying forward and backward as he was aligning the dish.

Eventually, the concrete hardens up enough, he gets a lock. We go downstairs and he sets up the HR20. I'm not sure that my signal strength is all that great to be honest with you. 110 and 119 are very strong, but 101 and 103 aren't strong at all.

But, here's what concerns me the most. When I look at the 99 sat on my HR20, it says N/A. He told me that was not a problem because, "It always does that." So, I asked, does it matter? "No, there's nothing on there but international stuff anyway." Is this true?

Well, when we fired up the HR20, I do now have all my HD locals (well, KTVI, KMOV, KDSK, and KDNL -- no 11 or 9.) I did no comparisons of the OTA vs. Sat locals as I did not have time.

I am at work now, but tomorrow I will have pics of the final pole-mount installation and how .... unprofessional it was left.

Overall, I'm glad I have the AT9 now, I'm glad I have my HD locals through Sat (just in case) and I'm thrilled its over (I think.) However, the professionalism left a little something to be desired as the pics will show you. I also think he rushed the job way too much so he could get home to go w/ his children to trick or treat (which I understand, but if you have a job you have to do.....) and I'm not sure my signal strength is what it should be on 101 and 103.

But, I now have an HD-TiVo and an HR20 on the same TV.

I lost my CM 4221 antenna during the July storm, got another one and had it hanging inside since July. It worked pretty during clear weather but I could never get PBS and had to manually adjust it ofen. I put off installing it again until my roof was repaired and the old mount removed and shingled over.

Anyway, a very nice guy on this forum helped me install the antenna. The original mount was a mistake made by the installers last year and since I didn't want more holes in my roof I left it there. This time, I could put it where it could pull in the best signal.

I now get 3 of the four network channels and PBS in the 90's and ABC in the mid to high 80's. I also get UPN and KPLR with high readings. I don't care about those channels for now, but I get them. These are great readings since I have two very large trees blocking me and causing multi-path issues.

I have recommended tilting the antenna back a couple of times here. I was told 2-5 degrees. Well it's tilted now! It has to be 30 degrees. So I just wanted to share that info.

I though mounting it higher would help. It's actually mounted on my addition which is about a foot shorter. I put down numbered pieces of masking tape as recommended by my pal, and found moving the antenna by only a few inches made a huge difference in general and more so with multi-path.

So to sum up: Try tilting the antenna waaaay back, higher is not always better, and finding the best reception location can vary by only a few inches.

[QUOTE=Scott Tucker]I just sent my email to D* about my displeasure with the 6.3 update. I encourage everybody to do the same. The more they hear it, the more they will do to fix the issue.

I agree and feel everyone with the problem email D*. I did and recieved a phone call within 3 hours from tech services. She said this was the first compliant she had heard of. She was aware of the AVS forum and I directed to the St. Louis thread fo0r insight into all the customers with the same problem. Acciording to her a update to the 6.3 software was made and is shown as version"a". I do have that version but also still have the problem. She is supposed to get back to me as soon as they investigate.( Ill hold my breath). I am also seeing some drop outs on 5.1, is aanyone esle?

[QUOTE=Scott Tucker]I just sent my email to D* about my displeasure with the 6.3 update. I encourage everybody to do the same. The more they hear it, the more they will do to fix the issue.

I agree and feel everyone with the problem email D*. I did and recieved a phone call within 3 hours from tech services. She said this was the first compliant she had heard of. She was aware of the AVS forum and I directed to the St. Louis thread fo0r insight into all the customers with the same problem. Acciording to her a update to the 6.3 software was made and is shown as version"a". I do have that version but also still have the problem. She is supposed to get back to me as soon as they investigate.( Ill hold my breath). I am also seeing some drop outs on 5.1, is aanyone esle?

I think most everyone has contacted them. If not, ask for Advanced Tech Support. The guy I spoke with had heard of the audio drops. Since the "upgrade" I get the Searching for Signal flashing momentarily and sporadically as well as losing the bars in my OTA signal strength which requires a re-boot to get back. He said they can send me yet another box which I declined. He offered me $10 off for 6 months. Hopefully they will get a fix soon.

Eventually, the concrete hardens up enough, he gets a lock. We go downstairs and he sets up the HR20. I'm not sure that my signal strength is all that great to be honest with you. 110 and 119 are very strong, but 101 and 103 aren't strong at all.

But, here's what concerns me the most. When I look at the 99 sat on my HR20, it says N/A. He told me that was not a problem because, "It always does that." So, I asked, does it matter? "No, there's nothing on there but international stuff anyway." Is this true?


Winston,

Spaceway 2 is at 99 deg, but I think it all spotbeams, and since it doesn't have the St. Louis spotbeam, it would make sense for you not to have any signal from it. See the link for what's on that satellite.
Lyngsat SpaceWay 2 (http://www.lyngsat.com/hd/space2.html)

When the AT9 and Spaceway satellites first came out, I remember reading that the installer had to use a signal meter to align the dish because the readings on the receivers weren't accurate. Also, with the differences between KA and KU signals, the signal level the receiver tells you make also be inaccurate.

I would think having a low 103 isn't bad, because it's different, but having a low 101 may be. You'll figure out the first time it rains really hard.

Here's a resolution setting that I have wondered about for awhile, but keep forgetting to ask.

In my example, I'm using an HD-TiVo. Do you change the resolution when you change channels? For example, my Sony HDTV accepts 720p and 1080i natively. Do you switch the output on the HD-TiVo from 720p when watching KTVI-DT to 1080i when you change to watch KMOV-DT?

Or, do you leave it on either 720p or 1080i? What's best?

Here's a resolution setting that I have wondered about for awhile, but keep forgetting to ask.

In my example, I'm using an HD-TiVo. Do you change the resolution when you change channels? For example, my Sony HDTV accepts 720p and 1080i natively. Do you switch the output on the HD-TiVo from 720p when watching KTVI-DT to 1080i when you change to watch KMOV-DT?

Or, do you leave it on either 720p or 1080i? What's best?

I also have an HD-Tivo, but I just leave it on 1080i all the time. I have a 1080i native TV. I do see any huge differences flipping back and forth between the two.

It all depends on whether you think your TV or the HD-Tivo has a better scaler.

The debate about which resolution to use has been going on a long time on many web sites and forums.

IMO, the best advice I read is to run it in the TV's native resolution. While most newer ones can do both, your set does has a native resolution. Mine is 720p and I just leave it there.

When the AT9 and Spaceway satellites first came out, I remember reading that the installer had to use a signal meter to align the dish because the readings on the receivers weren't accurate. Also, with the differences between KA and KU signals, the signal level the receiver tells you make also be inaccurate.


Which is funny because I have yet heard of a Premier installer with a meter that can find the 99/103 birds.

I am serioulsy considering buying this (http://www.appliedin.com/signallevelmeters/superbuddyspec.html) and then offering my services to people.

Here's a resolution setting that I have wondered about for awhile, but keep forgetting to ask.

In my example, I'm using an HD-TiVo. Do you change the resolution when you change channels? For example, my Sony HDTV accepts 720p and 1080i natively. Do you switch the output on the HD-TiVo from 720p when watching KTVI-DT to 1080i when you change to watch KMOV-DT?

Or, do you leave it on either 720p or 1080i? What's best?

I leave mine on 1080I even though my Sharp projector is 720p native. although I can't really tell the difference from one to the other, I feel as if 1080I looks smoother.

I would set it to whatever looks best.

Scott

I would set it to whatever looks best.

Scott

I guess I can't tell =]

I guess I can't tell =]

LOL, I guess it doesn't matter then.

Scott

Hey, Ken (or any Firefox user) I installed Firefox 2 and have been very impressed with it. I'd like to make it my browser of choice, but one thing I really enjoy is the Google Desktop and its Autofill feature. Do you know if Firefox has a plug-in that can fill in web site info automatically - name, address, phone, e-mail?
I use an app called Roboform for autofilling forms and I love it. Roboform also stores passwords, if you want. I'm not a Firefox user but Roboform is compatible with Firefox.

I arrived home tonight and find 3 new channels (all listed TBA) in my HD range.
Channels 892 893 894
Anyone know what these are going to be???

Also it appears Playboy is in the HD range now also.

Hey, Ken (or any Firefox user) I installed Firefox 2 and have been very impressed with it. I'd like to make it my browser of choice, but one thing I really enjoy is the Google Desktop and its Autofill feature. Do you know if Firefox has a plug-in that can fill in web site info automatically - name, address, phone, e-mail?

Not firefox specific I use a program called PasswordManagerXP ($30) that controls all my passwords and allows it to be installed on a flash drive as well to take with you when not at home. It integrates with IE and Firefox seamlessly and will also allow you to right click on a form field and create a new record on the fly.

I arrived home tonight and find 3 new channels (all listed TBA) in my HD range.
Channels 892 893 894
Anyone know what these are going to be???

Also it appears Playboy is in the HD range now also.

No idea -- but my FSN (792) is no longer in my HDTV list on my Moxi, even though its still in the regular channel list, and the Sports list. Weird.

I leave mine on 1080I even though my Sharp projector is 720p native. although I can't really tell the difference from one to the other, I feel as if 1080I looks smoother.

I would set it to whatever looks best.

Scott


Ditto on my Panny AE700. 720p native but looks noticably sharper on 1080i output from the HDTivo.

I arrived home tonight and find 3 new channels (all listed TBA) in my HD range.
Channels 892 893 894
Anyone know what these are going to be???

Also it appears Playboy is in the HD range now also.

My TiVo Series 3 downloaded a guide update today and from the names they look like other adult channels (I don't remember what they were offhand).

No idea -- but my FSN (792) is no longer in my HDTV list on my Moxi, even though its still in the regular channel list, and the Sports list. Weird.

I have always seen that FSN only shows up in the HD list when they are actualy showing HD programming (which is hardly ever I should add) I have the moxi as well

My TiVo Series 3 downloaded a guide update today and from the names they look like other adult channels (I don't remember what they were offhand).

Actually now that you mention it those are in the range of the adult channels not the HD.... and to think I thought we were getting 3 more channels

Am I only the one experiencing issues with KDNL-DT? It's not a major problem, it takes the reciever a few seconds extra to tune, but when it does, it shows 31-1, and no PSIP table data.

I haven't had a chance to call Jim, or e-mail (I've got classes and such), but I'm curious who else might be experiencing issues with OTA KDNL-DT.

No idea -- but my FSN (792) is no longer in my HDTV list on my Moxi, even though its still in the regular channel list, and the Sports list. Weird.

890s is not in the HD range. the 800s is the PPV range. The 890s is exactly the XXX PPV. Mark

Here is a report that mentions that STL is supposedly one of the 20 markets that is going to launch before the end of the year.

http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=109292&WT.svl=news1_1

Mark

Am I only the one experiencing issues with KDNL-DT? It's not a major problem, it takes the reciever a few seconds extra to tune, but when it does, it shows 31-1, and no PSIP table data.

I haven't had a chance to call Jim, or e-mail (I've got classes and such), but I'm curious who else might be experiencing issues with OTA KDNL-DT.

The PSIP generator got screwed up at the time change...thought I had it fixed. Out of town until Saturday, but will check ASAP.
Jim

Here is my latest (and hopefully last) update regarding me, my quest for HD, and DirecTV...

An installer from Premier came out to my house yesterday afternoon, around 3:00pm. I have previously been told by a Premier installer (who came to my house last Friday when it was pouring and my backyard was basically a swamp) that he would have to remove the current Triple LNB pole mount setup, rip up all the trenched wiring and start from scratch. However, the guy who came out yesterday said that was not necessary and that he could get a LoS for all the sats from my current pole and that he thought there was no need to do anything other than swap out the 3-LNB dish for the AT9.

Great, I though. Less destruction to the yard, easier install, and the guy gets out of here sooner. (I had already ran the RG6 to my new HR20 HD-DVR.) Well, he gets the dish assembled and gets a signal, but then determines the current pole is too small and he needs a new pole.

So, he cuts down the current pole, digs a hole (not a very deep one, probably one foot, if that) with a shovel. Then he stuck in concrete and the new pole. Mixed the cement, etc. Then he went into the house and installed the Zinwell multiswitch and terminated the lines into it nicely.

Then, we went back outside and he tried to put the dish on the pole in the concrete. Well, the concrete was not set, so the pole was swaying back and forth as he did it. Then, he had a hard time getting a signal lock on all of the sats. Probably because the pole was swaying forward and backward as he was aligning the dish.

Eventually, the concrete hardens up enough, he gets a lock. We go downstairs and he sets up the HR20. I'm not sure that my signal strength is all that great to be honest with you. 110 and 119 are very strong, but 101 and 103 aren't strong at all.

But, here's what concerns me the most. When I look at the 99 sat on my HR20, it says N/A. He told me that was not a problem because, "It always does that." So, I asked, does it matter? "No, there's nothing on there but international stuff anyway." Is this true?

Well, when we fired up the HR20, I do now have all my HD locals (well, KTVI, KMOV, KDSK, and KDNL -- no 11 or 9.) I did no comparisons of the OTA vs. Sat locals as I did not have time.

I am at work now, but tomorrow I will have pics of the final pole-mount installation and how .... unprofessional it was left.

Overall, I'm glad I have the AT9 now, I'm glad I have my HD locals through Sat (just in case) and I'm thrilled its over (I think.) However, the professionalism left a little something to be desired as the pics will show you. I also think he rushed the job way too much so he could get home to go w/ his children to trick or treat (which I understand, but if you have a job you have to do.....) and I'm not sure my signal strength is what it should be on 101 and 103.

But, I now have an HD-TiVo and an HR20 on the same TV.

I have had mixed results with the work of Premier installers. It pays to be on top of the technology before these guys come out. Many are not well trained, to say the least. I called Directv last month about Premier not keeping to their appointment dates and times. The Directv Customer Service manager told me that Directv will soon be ending it's agreements with all sub-contracting firms doing installation work. Directv will be hiring and training installers. We'll see if there will be any real changes in quality of work and service. I sincerely doubt it.

Here's a resolution setting that I have wondered about for awhile, but keep forgetting to ask.

In my example, I'm using an HD-TiVo. Do you change the resolution when you change channels? For example, my Sony HDTV accepts 720p and 1080i natively. Do you switch the output on the HD-TiVo from 720p when watching KTVI-DT to 1080i when you change to watch KMOV-DT?

Or, do you leave it on either 720p or 1080i? What's best?I addressed this to some extent a few weeks back, in talking about the fact that the new DirecTV receivers and DVRs have a native mode, which is by far the preferable arrangement.
____________________________________________________

In my experience, most consumers, regardless of display type, when given a choice between 1080i and 720p output will normally opt for 1080i on the assumption that higher numbers are better. In fact, with most non-1080p digital displays, when you have to choose between 720p and 1080i, selecting 720p normally would be the better choice. This is because opting for 720p would avoid the completely unnecessary step of converting (720p) progressive images to interlaced (1080i), with the display then taking the interlaced 1080i back the display's native resolution of 720 progressive.

The same would be true for LCDs and plasmas that have computer-oriented native resolutions, such as 1366x768 or 1024x768. Better to keep 720p in progressive mode, with the display scaling 720p to the native progressive resolution.
____________________________________________________

The entire post, which also addresses CRTs and native 1080p displays, can be found here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8639276&&#post8639276

The key issue here is you should try to avoid selecting an output format that results in native progressive images, such as 720p programming (ABC, FOX, ESPN), being converted -- at any point in the process -- to interlaced video. This will negatively effect picture quality, even with the very best high-end, standalone scaling/processors. And most consumer displays are not equipped with high-end scaling/processing capabilities.

If 1080i appears sharper, it is likely due to the fact that additional processing is being applied to mask de-interlacing issues. Your eyes can be fooled into thinking you are seeing a "sharper" picture, when in fact the processing that creates that sharp look is actually doing so at the expense of picture detail.

There's also an additional issue with how some displays de-interlace 1080i content, particularly the first generation of 1080p digital displays, with a resulting serious reduction in resolution. If you're interested, you can read more about that here:

http://www.hometheatermag.com/hookmeup/1106hook/

FYI -- when I turned on my TV yesterday afternoon around 5 p.m., the image on my TiVo was a mass of frozen pixellation, and commands from the remote to change channels or access menus were ignored. I tried to determine which channel was showing when things went south, but I wasn't able to decipher it. In the end, I had to remove power and reboot.

Not sure if this is a 6.3a issue or something else.

Also, during "The Nine" (KDNL-DT) last night I experienced about 3 minutes of audio drops and a strange alternating series of popping sounds, that appeared to be going right-left-right. I was watching the program delayed, so I can only assume that the same thing would have occurred watching it live. Eventually it stopped and didn't happen again.

Another "not good" sign...

OT, but need help with my Subwoofer.

I have a sony subwoofer connected to a denon receiver. When I shut off the power on my receiver and turn it back on, my sub doesn't work. It is on, just has no sound coming out. If I then unplug the subwoofer cable from the back of the subwoofer and plug it back in (not the power cable) it works... only until I shut it off.

My question is do you think it is the sub, the receiver, or the cable?

Thanks,
Tim

.....

Also, during "The Nine" (KDNL-DT) last night I experienced about 3 minutes of audio drops and a strange alternating series of popping sounds, that appeared to be going right-left-right. I was watching the program delayed, so I can only assume that the same thing would have occurred watching it live. Eventually it stopped and didn't happen again.

Another "not good" sign...


I had the same audio issues with Nine watching it OTA live since Charter does not Carry ABC in HD.

-Phatty

I had the same audio issues with Nine watching it OTA live since Charter does not Carry ABC in HD.Phatty,

Thanks for letting me know that. So it sounds like that problem, at least, was not TiVo-specific...

OT, but need help with my Subwoofer.

I have a sony subwoofer connected to a denon receiver. When I shut off the power on my receiver and turn it back on, my sub doesn't work. It is on, just has no sound coming out. If I then unplug the subwoofer cable from the back of the subwoofer and plug it back in (not the power cable) it works... only until I shut it off.

My question is do you think it is the sub, the receiver, or the cable?Difficult to say for sure, but since you say it happens when you power off the receiver, I suspect that this is the most likely cause. But' it's very strange that the remedy is to unplug the audio cable from the sub. If you have another cable capable of reaching the sub from the receiver, try that; if not, move the sub closer and try a different cable to see if that makes any difference.

OT, but need help with my Subwoofer.

I have a sony subwoofer connected to a denon receiver. When I shut off the power on my receiver and turn it back on, my sub doesn't work. It is on, just has no sound coming out. If I then unplug the subwoofer cable from the back of the subwoofer and plug it back in (not the power cable) it works... only until I shut it off.

My question is do you think it is the sub, the receiver, or the cable?

Thanks,
Tim You need a new sub. How big is your room?

I tried to do a search but was so innundated with results it made it useless...

Is there a thread somewhere on here, or a site somewhere, that list the different
HDMI, DVI, Component cables, and other A/V cables?

I have a friend here at work that is getting into the A/V world and if there was a
graphical representation I could give him, I think it would be usefull.

I addressed this to some extent a few weeks back, in talking about the fact that the new DirecTV receivers and DVRs have a native mode, which is by far the preferable arrangement.Yeah, I used that feature for about 2.1 seconds. :rolleyes: The problem is that when the output changes resolution, my TV (Sammy 61" DLP) has to make a context switch for the changed input format, and that makes flipping thru channels really slow, unless I happen to be only flipping thru those with the same format (e.g. all SD, or all 720p, etc).

Yeah, I used that feature for about 2.1 seconds. :rolleyes: The problem is that when the output changes resolution, my TV (Sammy 61" DLP) has to make a context switch for the changed input format, and that makes flipping thru channels really slow, unless I happen to be only flipping thru those with the same format (e.g. all SD, or all 720p, etc).Well then, you need an external scaler... ;) ;)

Well then, you need an external scaler... ;) ;)It'll have to wait. My next toy is a new digital SLR camera setup. :)

Is there a thread somewhere on here, or a site somewhere, that list the different HDMI, DVI, Component cables, and other A/V cables?

I would recommend Wikipedia a great online encyclopedia.
Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI) is the link for HDMI. At the bottom of the listing it has links to other similar listings like DVI. If your not careful you can serveral levels deep but it's great info ;)

Good luck,
Token

Doug,

The popping noises you mention from The NINE last evening occurred on both my OTA HD-TiVo and my new HR20 w/ ABCHD coming from the DirecTV sat.

I think it was a network thing, or at least a KDNL thing... it wasn't the TiVo or the HR20.

It'll have to wait. My next toy is a new digital SLR camera setup. :)Like Tom (I think), I was kidding.

But a scaler/processor is a very worthwhile upgrade, definitely with better bang-for-buck than high-end cables or power conditioning (unless, of course, you're starting with marginal power).

Like Tom (I think), I was kidding.You were? and I was shopping for a scalar because I thought I had to now! :p
But a scaler/processor is a very worthwhile upgrade, definitely with better bang-for-buck than high-end cables or power conditioning (unless, of course, you're starting with marginal power).I understand the benefit. But I'm done upgrading my home theater system for a while. I'm going to wait and see what happens in the HD movie playback arena before I invest any more money (I am not buying into HD-DVD vs. BRD, even if they make universal players). Besides, I really want a nice camera for the races. :)

You need a new sub. How big is your room?

Roughly 20X20

Roughly 20X20I use a Dynaudio Sub500 in a 14x22 room. It is awesome! It literally scared my sister-in-law into believing her kids were tumbling down our staircase. It sounds really terrific, but it is not cheap.

You need a new sub. How big is your room?

LOL, never miss an opportunity! :D

Scott

I addressed this to some extent a few weeks back, in talking about the fact that the new DirecTV receivers and DVRs have a native mode, which is by far the preferable arrangement.
____________________________________________________

In my experience, most consumers, regardless of display type, when given a choice between 1080i and 720p output will normally opt for 1080i on the assumption that higher numbers are better. In fact, with most non-1080p digital displays, when you have to choose between 720p and 1080i, selecting 720p normally would be the better choice. This is because opting for 720p would avoid the completely unnecessary step of converting (720p) progressive images to interlaced (1080i), with the display then taking the interlaced 1080i back the display's native resolution of 720 progressive.

The same would be true for LCDs and plasmas that have computer-oriented native resolutions, such as 1366x768 or 1024x768. Better to keep 720p in progressive mode, with the display scaling 720p to the native progressive resolution.
____________________________________________________

The entire post, which also addresses CRTs and native 1080p displays, can be found here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8639276&&#post8639276

The key issue here is you should try to avoid selecting an output format that results in native progressive images, such as 720p programming (ABC, FOX, ESPN), being converted -- at any point in the process -- to interlaced video. This will negatively effect picture quality, even with the very best high-end, standalone scaling/processors. And most consumer displays are not equipped with high-end scaling/processing capabilities.

If 1080i appears sharper, it is likely due to the fact that additional processing is being applied to mask de-interlacing issues. Your eyes can be fooled into thinking you are seeing a "sharper" picture, when in fact the processing that creates that sharp look is actually doing so at the expense of picture detail.

There's also an additional issue with how some displays de-interlace 1080i content, particularly the first generation of 1080p digital displays, with a resulting serious reduction in resolution. If you're interested, you can read more about that here:

http://www.hometheatermag.com/hookmeup/1106hook/

Doug,

So true about most consumers being fooled or rather conditioned to think a bad picture looks good. Given the choice, most people would say that the factory default setting on their TV looked best. :eek:

I've been around long enough and used video essentials enough to know what a good picture should look like.

That's why I'm surprised my Sharp 720 projector looks slightly better when I output 1080i from my HR10-250. It's not a huge difference at all, but 1080 looks smoother and more filmlike with less edge enhancement.

FYI, I run component video out of Tivo into Denon AV receiver and out to projector.

Scott

Roughly 20X20

Buy the best sub you can afford, or care to invest in. Go see Tom at mid-rivers UE. They have a ton of subs in many pricepoints.

Scott

[QUOTE=WinstonSmith]Here is my latest (and hopefully last) update regarding me, my quest for HD, and DirecTV...

I am looking forward to a H-20 installation . Does the zinwell multiswtch come with A9 package or do you have to furnish it. Where is it available locally?
Can the A9 be mounted on the roof in the same spot as the 18". Thanks

The PSIP generator got screwed up at the time change...thought I had it fixed. Out of town until Saturday, but will check ASAP.
Jim

Thanks, Jim.

I am looking forward to a H-20 installation . Does the zinwell multiswtch come with A9 package or do you have to furnish it. Where is it available locally?
Can the A9 be mounted on the roof in the same spot as the 18". Thanks


The 6x8 Zinwell does not come with that dish, it needs to be supplied by the
installer or purchased. I don't know where locally it is available.

Yes, it can be installed in the same spot, as long as there is no blockage of the sats
but can not use any of the existing hardware from the 18" dish.

The 6x8 Zinwell does not come with that dish, it needs to be supplied by the installer or purchased. I don't know where locally it is available.I'm not familiar with this particular piece of equipment, but I'd suggest that SkyWalker Communications in Wentzville/O'Fallon (9390 Veterans Memorial Parkway; (636) 272-8025) is your best bet for this sort of thing. SkyWalker's main clientele is installers, so there's a good chance they have what you need, or perhaps another brand/model that will suffice.

Note that if you see their catalog prices, these are trade prices and there would normally (but not always) be a retail mark-up.

Monday, I will be the proud new owner of a:
Samsung HL-S6187W (http://www.samsung.com/Products/TV/DLPTV/HLS6187WXXAA.asp)
(I just had to tell somebody :D )

Any thoughts?
I appreciate all of your opinions. :)
Thanks
Fastman

Monday, I will be the proud new owner of a:
Samsung HL-S6187W (http://www.samsung.com/Products/TV/DLPTV/HLS6187WXXAA.asp)
(I just had to tell somebody :D )

Any thoughts?
I appreciate all of your opinions. :)
Thanks
FastmanYou will not regret your choice. I've had a Sammy HL-P6163W for 2 years and still love it. I would only change it if I could get a bigger (i.e. 73") Sammy DLP instead.

Get Doug to calibrate it for you. It's money well spent.

The new channels on Charter are:

892 - ClubJenna
893 - Fresh!
894 - XCess

FWIW

And for whatever reason, I can view Fresh - its not PPV and I'm not a subscriber to porn channels either ....... although there is no audio, haha.

black_macleod,

Reminds me of the "Friends" episode where Joey and Chandler were getting free porn and were afraid to change the channel and risk losing it.

You've been warned... ;)

hahah yea, but they seemed to have fixed it already ;-)

not that i was watching.

That's why I'm surprised my Sharp 720 projector looks slightly better when I output 1080i from my HR10-250. It's not a huge difference at all, but 1080 looks smoother and more filmlike with less edge enhancement.

FYI, I run component video out of Tivo into Denon AV receiver and out to projector.Scott, I don't know the specifics of your projector, but it's possible that some of the difference you're seeing might be attributable to how the projector is handling 1080i de-interlacing.

Although the "cheating" on handling of 1080i signals detailed in the HT Magazine article only came to the surface when first-generation 1080p displays came along, it's logical to expect that this was a "shortcut" also used by some manufacturers in their 720p displays for handling of 1080i incoming signals.

On the other hand, I wouldn't expect this to be happening with a projector, as there's less corner-cutting on these, particularly if we're talking about one of the higher-end Sharp DLPs.

Still, 1080i de-interlacing requires quite a bit more horsepower and more elaborate algorithms than what's needed for 480i. And it's really only in the past 18 months to 2 years that there's been a lot of focus on 1080i deinterlacing, even among the main scaler manufacturers.

Get Doug to calibrate it for you. It's money well spent.

Which begs the question...
WHEN should I have Doug calibrate it?
(I suppose I should head off to Dougs website.)

The new channels on Charter are:

892 - ClubJenna
893 - Fresh!
894 - XCess

FWIW

And for whatever reason, I can view Fresh - its not PPV and I'm not a subscriber to porn channels either ....... although there is no audio, haha.

I take back everything negative I've said about Charter. ;)

Fastmans,

You should log 100 hours on the lamp before arranging for calibration. It's also a good idea to put the TV through at least a couple of dozen complete warm-up/cool-down cycles before having it calibrated.

Two reasons for this. First, the lamps used in digital displays tend to be pretty variable during the first 75 to 100 hours of operation. You will likely see some change in the picture characteristics during this period. Once they are broken in, the lamps are highly stable until they reach roughly the midpoint of their rated life, at which point light output will have been reduced by at least 25%, probably a bit more. At this point, it's suggested that you consider re-calibration, which I do at a 40% reduction from the initial calibration fee.

The second aspect of the break-in is that you want to thoruughly run in all of the electrical circuits and components to ensure the set is a keeper before having it calibrated. While this is a generalization, it seems that if TVs are going to have serious reliability issues, they tend to happen in the first few weeks of use.

FWIW, I'm not sure what Samsung is claiming for lamp life these days. I checked their web site and it seems they are not listing this (or I just can't find it). But I would expect something on the order of 4,000-6,000 hours.

Give me a call when you're ready to talk in more detail.

Congratulations on the new set!

I take back everything negative I've said about Charter. ;)I see the four horsemen, and they're heading straight toward us... :eek:

Need I say that this is just a joke? :)

^^^^
Also, as far as lamp life goes. Turn your contrast (white level) down immediately after buying the set. this will not only result in a more accurate picture, but will also make your lamp last longer.

On my projector the lamp is rated at 2000 hours. My first lamp blew up after 1000 hours. I suspect because I never vacumed the filters. My 2nd lamp has just passed the 2000 hour mark, and my picture still looks very good. I'm not sure how long I can go on this lamp, but I'm pretty sure if I had left the contrast set at factory default of 100%, my lamp would have been toast prior to the 2000 hours.
Bottom line everyone should turn the contrast setting on their display down probably to at least 50%. You'll get better picture and longer life.

Scott

^^^^
Also, as far as lamp life goes. Turn your contrast (white level) down immediately after buying the set. this will not only result in a more accurate picture, but will also make your lamp last longer.

On my projector the lamp is rated at 2000 hours. My first lamp blew up after 1000 hours. I suspect because I never vacumed the filters. My 2nd lamp has just passed the 2000 hour mark, and my picture still looks very good. I'm not sure how long I can go on this lamp, but I'm pretty sure if I had left the contrast set at factory default of 100%, my lamp would have been toast prior to the 2000 hours.
Bottom line everyone should turn the contrast setting on their display down probably to at least 50%. You'll get better picture and longer life.

Scott

Would Avia or VE be a good idea at this point on a new set? I dont own either of these, but it seems reasonable to think its a good idea...?

Fastmans,

Both of these discs will help you get things looking better prior to professional calibration. Personally, I prefer AVIA as it's MUCH easier to navigate through the menus. I have nothing but respect for Joe Kane (founder of the Imaging Science Foundation and the man behind the Video Essentials and Digital Video Essentials discs), but I'm convinced he's the only person on the planet capable of quickly finding the needed patterns on either VE or DVE.

Yes, I'm exaggerating, but not as much as you might assume... :)

I'd also suggest that you consider the Monster ISF calibration disc. The nice thing about this disc is that the "test patterns" are human/real-world, so it's a bit more straightforward to correctly make the front-panel adjustments.

WSJ's Mossberg Gives Green Light for HDTV Viewing Experience

The weekly Personal Technology column by Walter Mossberg has given an unambiguous thumbs up for HDTV.

While this might seem like no big deal for many of us here, the mainstream press hasn't been particularly positive about HDTV. I think that's largely been because journalists view HDTV as something that's elitist (due to price) and something that's complex (reasons too numerous to list). The complexity issue is also fully reflected in the general coverage of HDTV, with stories that are typically riddled with errors and incorrect assumptions.

Having someone like Mossberg give a ringing endorsement will probably have more of an trickle-down effect on HDTV coverage in the mainstream press than any immediate impact on consumers. But it definitely helps further set the stage for a boffo holiday shopping season for HDTVs.

Mossberg does present some negatives -- display cost, additional equipment/service outlays, limited HD programming, and SD programming that looks worse than on traditional TVs. But in the end, he and his wife decided they couldn't live without HDTV when the Pioneer plasma review loaner was due to be returned.

He concludes:
_____________________________________________

We decided that in the slow transition to high-definition programming, there's now enough content to make HDTV worthwhile. And once you get used to high definition, it's tough to go back to plain old TV.
_____________________________________________

The complete Mossberg column can be found at www.wsj.com -- paid subscription is required for access.

anyone not getting audio on the HD FSMW channel for the blues game? Looks great but no audio

Would Avia or VE be a good idea at this point on a new set? I dont own either of these, but it seems reasonable to think its a good idea...?

Yes, either one of those would be something everyone should own. This will greatly improve your picture as much as can be done via front panel/remote controls. However, for the best possible picture that is truly accurate you must do a professional calibration. Like Doug said. Give him a call after 100 hours of viewing.

Scott

anyone not getting audio on the HD FSMW channel for the blues game? Looks great but no audio

I have audio on D* 95. I am in the bedroom watching via stereo, so no 5.1.

charter just told me they won't call the stl office to see if it's thier problem until 3 people call in. what a joke. all it takes is for them to make a phone call. I'm sick of calling in to charter and having to talk to thier new call centers in canada and japan.

Why KMOV-DT is broadcasting 2 streams? It may already be apparent to some viewers right now that "CSI" might be looking a bit soft. For some reason, KMOV is showing a HD (4-1) and SD (4-2) feed right now.

It's not a problem (unless you hate the bandwidth stealing 4-2 is doing :rolleyes: ), yet, and it seems even for me to be unnecessary to run 2 channels with the same programing on OTA digital.

Kent Ehrhardt got some fancy new weather equipment (so I hope that we're not going to have a 24-radar on 4-2, or worse yet, another WeatherPlus+ variant) today, so I hope that isn't a foreboding of bit-stealing at KMOV.

The PSIP has something along the lines of "KMOV SD Programming." Somehow, I don't really want to know what 4-2 is going to be for. So much for the beautiful vistas during CSI: Miami... :rolleyes:

kj,

I've been thinking for the past week or so that KMOV was looking a bit soft, but I didn't have any definitive evidence. I mentioned this to a client the other day as well.

This is one of the reasons I posted the note over the weekend about Moviebeam, wondering where the bandwidth was coming from to support St. Louis customers. I actually did a news search for Belo (owner of KMOV) and Moviebeam, but came up empty.

For now, I'm assuming that the Moviebeam bandwidth is coming from KETC-DT (which also seems softer of late, assuming that's possible). But the fact that someone else is confirming what I've seen from KMOV-DT of late does make me wonder...

Doug,

The popping noises you mention from The NINE last evening occurred on both my OTA HD-TiVo and my new HR20 w/ ABCHD coming from the DirecTV sat.

I think it was a network thing, or at least a KDNL thing... it wasn't the TiVo or the HR20.

The audio problem must have come from ABC as best as we can determine. Our operator (Tom) who is also very much into HD, had it recorded on his home system. He didn't hear it while on duty..but is doing several other jobs at the same time...like monitoring the analog revenue channel!
Jim

^^^^
Also, as far as lamp life goes. Turn your contrast (white level) down immediately after buying the set. this will not only result in a more accurate picture, but will also make your lamp last longer.

On my projector the lamp is rated at 2000 hours. My first lamp blew up after 1000 hours. I suspect because I never vacumed the filters. My 2nd lamp has just passed the 2000 hour mark, and my picture still looks very good. I'm not sure how long I can go on this lamp, but I'm pretty sure if I had left the contrast set at factory default of 100%, my lamp would have been toast prior to the 2000 hours.
Bottom line everyone should turn the contrast setting on their display down probably to at least 50%. You'll get better picture and longer life.

ScottDo you know for a fact that high contrast reduces the life of a DLP lamp? I'm not so sure I agree.

I have my contrast fairly high (used Avia, etc to set it for my room), and got plenty out of my first lamp. I replaced it near 5000 hours and it still seemed to have plenty of life (I just wanted to do the replacement early, so I would have a usable backup). And with DLP you never have to worry about screen burn-in.

The audio problem must have come from ABC as best as we can determine. Our operator (Tom) who is also very much into HD, had it recorded on his home system. He didn't hear it while on duty..but is doing several other jobs at the same time...like monitoring the analog revenue channel!
Jim

Tell him he's doing a great job...some of us out here suck at multitasking. He's making it an art! :)

kj,

I've been thinking for the past week or so that KMOV was looking a bit soft, but I didn't have any definitive evidence. I mentioned this to a client the other day as well.

This is one of the reasons I posted the note over the weekend about Moviebeam, wondering where the bandwidth was coming from to support St. Louis customers. I actually did a news search for Belo (owner of KMOV) and Moviebeam, but came up empty.

For now, I'm assuming that the Moviebeam bandwidth is coming from KETC-DT (which also seems softer of late, assuming that's possible). But the fact that someone else is confirming what I've seen from KMOV-DT of late does make me wonder...

So does that essentially make it an invisible 9-5? Create ( on 9-4) has been looking a bit fuzzy (on a non-hd display).

Do you know for a fact that high contrast reduces the life of a DLP lamp? I'm not so sure I agree.

I have my contrast fairly high (used Avia, etc to set it for my room), and got plenty out of my first lamp. I replaced it near 5000 hours and it still seemed to have plenty of life (I just wanted to do the replacement early, so I would have a usable backup). And with DLP you never have to worry about screen burn-in.

I'm no expert, but it seems to me that a lamp doesn't have to work as hard to put out less light. So, do I know for a fact? No, but I'll stick to my story that a lamp will last longer if it doesn't have to produce "torch mode" on a display.

Scott

SHADO,

I think this may get you pointed in the right direction:

http://www.tvantenna.com/support/tutorials/combining.html

Thanks for the website, but could I just put a UHF trap on the UHF/VHF/FM antenna I have now and use a combiner to join it with the Channel Master UHF antenna?

I'm no expert, but it seems to me that a lamp doesn't have to work as hard to put out less light. So, do I know for a fact? No, but I'll stick to my story that a lamp will last longer if it doesn't have to produce "torch mode" on a display.

ScottI'm not claiming you're wrong, but I think it might not make that much difference on a DLP bulb (like maybe 10-15% bulb life on average?). I wonder if there's any data on it. My DLP has a 120 Watt bulb, and it doesn't seem that much different between setting contrast at 50% and 100%. Definitely less difference than on a CRT RPTV.

Thanks for the website, but could I just put a UHF trap on the UHF/VHF/FM antenna I have now and use a combiner to join it with the Channel Master UHF antenna?SHADO,

Not sure if that would work or not. If you've already got your second antenna, I'd suggest posing that question to whoever sold it to you. If you haven't purchased your antenna, I suggest you do that via SkyWalker Communications in Wentzville. They serve installers as one of their primary customer bases, and I suspect they would be able to tell you if your alternative configuration would be workable.

You might also check with the folks at Antennas Direct.

I tried to do a search but was so innundated with results it made it useless...

Is there a thread somewhere on here, or a site somewhere, that list the different
HDMI, DVI, Component cables, and other A/V cables?

I have a friend here at work that is getting into the A/V world and if there was a
graphical representation I could give him, I think it would be usefull.

Here is a site with the pinouts for various video and computer cables. I use it a lot since I became too old for my rememberer. It doesn't show a DVI-D cable but just search pinout for DVI-D.

"http://www.networktechinc.com/technote.html"

Walt

And Now...For Something Completely Stupid...

LG has claimed bragging rights for production of a 103-inch diagonal LCD flat panel. In addition to being huge, this baby has Guiness bling, too.

My advice -- buy and locate this monster before you lay the foundation of your home, because it ain't going in the door and maneuvering corners and stairs after the fact.

While I see some possible commerical applications for something like this, producing it in volume makes little sense. LG might be a good stock to short...

The following excerpt is from today's TV Predictions newsletter:
____________________________________________________________ _
Would you pay $150,000 for a 100-inch LCD HDTV?

LG Electronics thinks someone will -- in fact, it apparently thinks many people will. The company has announced that it will begin "mass producing" the monster-sized flat-panel display.

The set, which was introduced at last January's Consumer Electronics Show, measures 100 inches diagonally and is approximately 1.5 times larger than its nearest competitor, Samsung's 82-inch LCD. The Guinness Book of World Records has dubbed the LG set, "the world's largest LCD TV."
____________________________________________________________ _

To read the complete story, click here. (http://www.tvpredictions.com/lglcd110206.htm)

anyone not getting audio on the HD FSMW channel for the blues game? Looks great but no audio

I didn't see the Blues game on FSMW-HD last night, but this no-audio issue also happened a few weeks ago when the Oregon/Oklahoma football game was on FSMW-HD. Not sure whose issue it is (Charter or FSMW).

I'm not claiming you're wrong, but I think it might not make that much difference on a DLP bulb (like maybe 10-15% bulb life on average?). I wonder if there's any data on it. My DLP has a 120 Watt bulb, and it doesn't seem that much different between setting contrast at 50% and 100%. Definitely less difference than on a CRT RPTV.

Forgot to mention. I also set the projector on economy mode, and color temp to warm which is around 6500k deg. This along with setting contrast at approx. 25% I'm sure adds to the lamps life.

Scott

I didn't see the Blues game on FSMW-HD last night, but this no-audio issue also happened a few weeks ago when the Oregon/Oklahoma football game was on FSMW-HD. Not sure whose issue it is (Charter or FSMW).

When I checked the game out for a few minutes, audio was fine.

I watched Jericho on Tivo last night, and I too got the obnoxious popping sounds and audio drop out thereafter for like 10 seconds. Glad Doug mentioned it, or I would have been freaking out from the noise. I've never heard anything like that from any system before.

Scott

I watched the entire blues game last night on Charter, had no audio dropouts.

Well it must have just been my box or something. Weird how that was the only channel I was not getting audio on. They did offer to send someone out on Nov 11, but it's one channel and it will have to wait until i have time to sit around all day and wait or them to show up to tell me they can't figure it out either and that they don't have another box to replace it with. Anyone know when the next Blues game is on there?

Monday, I will be the proud new owner of a:
Samsung HL-S6187W (http://www.samsung.com/Products/TV/DLPTV/HLS6187WXXAA.asp)
(I just had to tell somebody :D )

Any thoughts?
I appreciate all of your opinions. :)
Thanks
Fastman

I got a 6188W from Vanns a couple weeks ago. I love it, I'm sure you'll be pleased :)

So anyone with dishnetwork not pleased with the HD packages? Thinking about dropping Charter.

I watched Jericho on Tivo last night, and I too got the obnoxious popping sounds and audio drop out thereafter for like 10 seconds. Glad Doug mentioned it, or I would have been freaking out from the noise. I've never heard anything like that from any system before.

Scott

Scott, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Doug talking about those popping noises from ABC's, "THE NINE"?

I know that's where I got the popping noises.... I never heard anything on "Jericho."

So anyone with dishnetwork not pleased with the HD packages? Thinking about dropping Charter.

Just the lack of FSMW-HD. Once that goes online I'll be pretty happy.

Scott, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Doug talking about those popping noises from ABC's, "THE NINE"?

I know that's where I got the popping noises.... I never heard anything on "Jericho."

Bingo! Nice catch. You're right. I watched Jericho and The Nine last night. It was The Nine that had the popping. :o

Scott

Well it must have just been my box or something. Weird how that was the only channel I was not getting audio on. They did offer to send someone out on Nov 11, but it's one channel and it will have to wait until i have time to sit around all day and wait or them to show up to tell me they can't figure it out either and that they don't have another box to replace it with. Anyone know when the next Blues game is on there?

I didn't have audio on 792 during the Blues game either. I didn't really think much of it since I only checked in on the game occasionally and I wasn't going to bother resetting my box just to listen to hockey commentary.

So anyone with dishnetwork not pleased with the HD packages? Thinking about dropping Charter.

At this point in time, unless you've got real problems, it's not worth switching. Once the promo is done, it's not a big price difference, or difference in channels. PLus if you switch, there are just going to new and different equipment hassles.

I'm no expert, but it seems to me that a lamp doesn't have to work as hard to put out less light. So, do I know for a fact? No, but I'll stick to my story that a lamp will last longer if it doesn't have to produce "torch mode" on a display.This is the first time I've come across this sort of conversation about light output vs. lamp life; As a result I hadn't given it a lot of thought before. My initial reaction was that lowering the contrast, while probably helpful for picture quality, would have no impact on lamp life.

My untested assumption was that unless there's a specific "low power" or "economy mode" setting, that the lamp puts out a consistent level of light. After all, this is why lamp-based displays struggle to produce true video black -- the lamp is always producing a consistent level of light. making it difficult to prevent some light from reaching the screen.

Anyway, I wasn't completely sure about the lamp life benefit here, so I consulted with some of my expert colleagues over at the ISF Forum.

The verdict from that discussion is that the contrast (light output) setting will have no impact on lamp life -- as I understood, the lamp emits light at a fixed level, and differences in lumination are controlled solely by the DLP, the LCD or LCoS chip(s) in how they reflect light or otherwise throttle light that passes from the lamp, to the chip, and onto to the screen. Actually, some displays incorporate fixed or dynamic "irises," which are designed to block light for dark images, but even here the light output from the lamp is constant.

On the other hand, if the projector or display has a low-power or economy mode, then the lamp is not being driven as hard and should last longer. Also, operating in an economy mode has the additional potential benefit of producing less heat, which should be a good thing for the other components packed inside the case.

FWIW, I can understand how you could conclude that lower light levels will result in extended lamp life. That line of logic undoubtedly has its roots in the CRT world, where it is an absolute fact -- overdriving contrast on any type of CRT set will significantly reduce the service life of the CRT(s) and other components, chief among them the power supply. Running CRTs at high contrast levels also has a significant negative impact on picture quality.

Hope this is helpful.

This is the first time I've come across this sort of conversation about light output vs. lamp life; As a result I hadn't given it a lot of thought before. My initial reaction was that lowering the contrast, while probably helpful for picture quality, would have no impact on lamp life.

My untested assumption was that unless there's a specific "low power" or "economy mode" setting, that the lamp puts out a consistent level of light. After all, this is why lamp-based displays struggle to produce true video black -- the lamp is always producing a consistent level of light. making it difficult to prevent some light from reaching the screen.

Anyway, I wasn't completely sure about the lamp life benefit here, so I consulted with some of my expert colleagues over at the ISF Forum.

The verdict from that discussion is that the contrast (light output) setting will have no impact on lamp life -- as I understood, the lamp emits light at a fixed level, and differences in lumination are controlled solely by the DLP, the LCD or LCoS chip(s) in how they reflect light or otherwise throttle light that passes from the lamp, to the chip, and onto to the screen. Actually, some displays incorporate fixed or dynamic "irises," which are designed to block light for dark images, but even here the light output from the lamp is constant.

On the other hand, if the projector or display has a low-power or economy mode, then the lamp is not being driven as hard and should last longer. Also, operating in an economy mode has the additional potential benefit of producing less heat, which should be a good thing for the other components packed inside the case.

FWIW, I can understand how you could conclude that lower light levels will result in extended lamp life. That line of logic undoubtedly has its roots in the CRT world, where it is an absolute fact -- overdriving contrast on any type of CRT set will significantly reduce the service life of the CRT(s) and other components, chief among them the power supply. Running CRTs at high contrast levels also has a significant negative impact on picture quality.

Hope this is helpful.

I was wondering when you would chime in on this one. :)

So, my lamp is lasting longer than than the 2000 hour rating due to economy mode.

Heck, in that case, I'll crank up the contrast a bit to compensate for the age of the lamp since it will not make the lamp expire prematurely. Thanks Doug.

Scott

I can't remember where I read it, but supposedly on the Sammy's anyway, (torch) "dynamic" mode uses more wattage. Wish I had a link...

Edit: FWIW
Digging around the Samsung knowledge-base, he found that "when using the dynamic setting the 100 watt bulb operates at 120 watts causing the picture to look brighter. This will shorten the life of the bulb by about 2,000 hours."

I can't remember where I read it, but supposedly on the Sammy's anyway, (torch) "dynamic" mode uses more wattage. Wish I had a link...

Edit: FWIW
Digging around the Samsung knowledge-base, he found that "when using the dynamic setting the 100 watt bulb operates at 120 watts causing the picture to look brighter. This will shorten the life of the bulb by about 2,000 hours."

Oh great! So now I can't increase my contrast??? :D

Scott

Doug...

Thanks for researching and posting the info. I didn't think the bulb varied in brightness. Now that you mention it, I do recall reading how brightness on the screen can be controlled by mirror angle on the chip.

I think on my TV, the bulb always runs at 120 watts, and 100 watts for the smaller screens. The ability to run at 120 or 100 (economy mode) for the 61" DLP came with the newer sets IIRC.

Today I saw the Sammy 71" DLP at Best Buy's Magnolia setup over on Eager.
I gotta get me one of those!

Oh great! So now I can't increase my contrast??? :D

Scott

I don't have to worry about in on my calibrated set. :p

Doug...

Thanks for researching and posting the info. I didn't think the bulb varied in brightness. Now that you mention it, I do recall reading how brightness on the screen can be controlled by mirror angle on the chip.

I think on my TV, the bulb always runs at 120 watts, and 100 watts for the smaller screens. The ability to run at 120 or 100 (economy mode) for the 61" DLP came with the newer sets IIRC.

Today I saw the Sammy 71" DLP at Best Buy's Magnolia setup over on Eager.
I gotta get me one of those!

I saw that set, too. It was impressive. I was disappointed, though, that they didn't have more front projectors at that new Magnolia. They had only one FP and it was a middle of the road Sharp, not the higher end projectors I was hoping for.

The Best Buy down in South County has a pseudo home theater room with a Sony LCD projector. It's sad that there's no light control for it, but a salesman told me that they've sold about seven projectors since they put it up. They say, "You mean I can have this in my home?" Anyone looking for a rear projector ought to at least consider a front projector. It's not always feasible, but if you can make it happen, there's nothing like the size of screen you can have with the technology. Often now, the price difference isn't that much. Optoma has a FP that's under $1,000, and there are lots of FP's for less than $2,000. Of course, you have to have a screen, but they're are lots of options for those, too, including some clever do-it-yourself screens.

...Anyone looking for a rear projector ought to at least consider a front projector. It's not always feasible, but if you can make it happen, there's nothing like the size of screen you can have with the technology. Often now, the price difference isn't that much. Optoma has a FP that's under $1,000, and there are lots of FP's for less than $2,000. Of course, you have to have a screen, but they're are lots of options for those, too, including some clever do-it-yourself screens.Unfortunately, I can't go FP. My home theater room is my first floor living room. It works well for a RPTV but has too much ambient light for a FP, and I don't want a projector hanging down in the middle of the room either (nor would my wife). I expect we won't replace our 720P 61" DLP for a while. Wouldn't make sense to anyway before D*, et al. can start providing more HD content.

Unfortunately, I can't go FP. My home theater room is my first floor living room. It works well for a RPTV but has too much ambient light for a FP, and I don't want a projector hanging down in the middle of the room either (nor would my wife). I expect we won't replace our 720P 61" DLP for a while. Wouldn't make sense to anyway before D*, et al. can start providing more HD content.

I know a lot of people can't do FP, but it's what I wanted to do for as long as I can remember, so I gave up a regular living room to make it happen. One of the DLP rear projectors would definitely be my second choice. The Magnolia store in Brentwood is just the place to see what they look like.

Well it must have just been my box or something. Weird how that was the only channel I was not getting audio on. They did offer to send someone out on Nov 11, but it's one channel and it will have to wait until i have time to sit around all day and wait or them to show up to tell me they can't figure it out either and that they don't have another box to replace it with. Anyone know when the next Blues game is on there?


http://www.stlouisblues.com/news/0607/061017.html

I know a lot of people can't do FP, but it's what I wanted to do for as long as I can remember, so I gave up a regular living room to make it happen. One of the DLP rear projectors would definitely be my second choice. The Magnolia store in Brentwood is just the place to see what they look like.

So you're firmly in the camp that DLP is better than LCD?

So you're firmly in the camp that DLP is better than LCD?

Oh please, let's not go there.

Everyone has their own preferences, budget and tastes.

Unfortunately, I can't go FP. My home theater room is my first floor living room. It works well for a RPTV but has too much ambient light for a FP, and I don't want a projector hanging down in the middle of the room either (nor would my wife). I expect we won't replace our 720P 61" DLP for a while. Wouldn't make sense to anyway before D*, et al. can start providing more HD content.

I have a CRT front projector on a coffee table in my living room. I am not allowed to move it to the basement ceiling. My wife has bad knees and has trouble going up and down stairs. The screen is home made and leaning against the fireplace. My wife loves HDTV. She has her own 30" 16X9 in the bedroom.

Walt

Well, compared to WinstonSmith, I had similar and opposite experiences with D*/Premier installation.

First, my similar/painful experience... I set up a movers connection Fri, Oct 27. They said to expect a call within 72 hours to set up my installation(she was surprised she couldn't set it up then). After not recieving a call by Monday evening, I called D* Tuesday morning. I was schedule for Thursday between 1 and 5. So, in the meantime, I run cable to all of the places I need. Wednesday night, I get a message from premier wanting to schedule my install. So I call first thing Thursday morning and am told, "We don't have you on the schedule". I explain that D* Scheduled me, then I have to talk with a supervisor. The best he can do is get someone there on Friday afternoon between 1 and 5. On each of my calls, I confirm that they are to bring a 5LNB dish and a 6x8 multiswitch. On each call, they say yes, that what they have on their workorder.

So Friday afternoon rolls around and moves on past. I call at 4:45 to make sure the installer is still coming(it gets dark early now). They say he's running behind and will be there by 5:30, no big deal. He gets here at 5:30ish and I make sure he has the 5LNB dish and 6x8 multiswitch. He says, no. They have me down as a standard dish with 3 standard receivers. I let him know that I have 2 Tivos(1 HD 1 SD) and he was to bring a standard reciever.....He gets on the phone and tries to find out what the problem was....

Here is where my story diverges from WinstonSmiths. This installer, Billy, continues calling around to find out if anyone has a 5LNB on his truck. After 3 calls, he realizes he has to go back to the office and get one. He leaves and comes back 30 minutes later(after guessing it would take 25) with the new dish. I offer help(as I've put up a standard and 3LNB dish before) and he says he's got it covered. Once the dish is together(the new slimline dish), I notice he has another installer from Premier out helping him fish his cable into the attic of my garage and then they both come in and repair my 5H!++y attempt at putting connectors on 2 of my 6 cables. Then, they get everything set up and finally leave at 8:05 on a Friday night.

Now I realize, if I wasn't last on his schedule, this wouldn't have been such a mess, and if they'd set up the proper work order to begin with, they wouldn't have been there that late, but I was very happy with the professionalism of the installers. And I was also happy they didn't say they'd be back tomorrow with the dish. Now, I finally have my HDTV back(after 7 months) and my daughter can watch her shows on her TV in our new house.

So, basically, I'm upset with D* and will call and complain. The people in the premier office are a bunch of tools, and I had a good installer, so overall, I am relieved that all of this is over now........

Now onto the HD goodness

Dug

I have a CRT front projector on a coffee table in my living room...That would not fly at our house. I do actually have a room I could convert for a FP, but it's next to the bedroom & that would be a problem if I want to stay up watching while she gets some shuteye.

But it could be a moot point, since we're thinking about selling the house in spring to downgrade to a smaller and cheaper place.

Oh please, let's not go there.

Everyone has their own preferences, budget and tastes.

Exactly right, Mo. I actually have two LCD HDTV's in bedrooms. No one technology is going to work for everyone, or be to everyone's taste. I like DLP for reasons I've posted before, but others dislike it for some of the same reasons.

Exactly right, Mo. I actually have two LCD HDTV's in bedrooms. No one technology is going to work for everyone, or be to everyone's taste. I like DLP for reasons I've posted before, but others dislike it for some of the same reasons.They both seem good to me. I have a 61" Sammy DLP in the living room and a 32" Sammy LCD in the bedroom. I like them both. They both have terrific pictures.

Oh please, let's not go there.

Everyone has their own preferences, budget and tastes.

Innocent question on my part. I was simply wondering if he was including LCDs in that statement or not.

I also thought DLP/LCD was similar in budget...

They both seem good to me. I have a 61" Sammy DLP in the living room and a 32" Sammy LCD in the bedroom. I like them both. They both have terrific pictures.

C'mon!, admit it. You're DLP performs better than the LCD. :eek:

Scott

C'mon!, admit it. You're DLP performs better than the LCD. :eek:

ScottIt's really apples and oranges for me. The DLP is 61", previously calibrated, and connected to a 7.1 DD PLIIx/DTS-ES 170WPC Arcam/Dynaudio audio system. The LCD is 32", uncalibrated, and hanging from the ceiling in the bedroom with audio handled by the built-in stereo speakers. So yes, the DLP system is by far the better performer, but it's not a fair comparison. :cool:

If I were buying again, I'd be getting that 71" DLP. Wonder if they are coming with an LED version soon? The 56" LED DLP looked really nice. :)

But LCDs have come a long way. When I got my first DLP, LCDs looked so washed out and has such bad black levels that dealers only played animated video (Ice Age, etc.) to try and hide that.

I don't think I ever really noticed how bad CBS's coverage of SD games is.

Perhaps its because I recorded it using the DirecTV HR20 and using the sat feed rather than OTA, but man, its bad.

Once I catch up, I'm going to compare OTA vs. Sat PQ.

They almost look like analog signals. Both the Dish SAT and OTA are the same....maybe it's raining in the dome :confused:

In defense of CBS, I'm guessing the only places this game is airing is here and KC...heck, I barely want to watch it!

I'm about ready to give up on it myself, but was simply amazed at the picture.

I don't know if somone has mentioned this yet but I am getting a sub channel off of KMOVHD. It is 4.2 and they are showing the football game but picture is just horrible. It looks worse the 11.2 the tube. CBS had the best HD broadcast of all the stations. I hope this is not something they will continue to do.

This may be the reason the broadcast looks so bad, they are stealing bandwidth from 4.1.

BigDaddy....

4.2 is showing the exact same thing as 4.1?

BigDaddy....

4.2 is showing the exact same thing as 4.1?



Yes it is the same thing but the pic quality seems to be much worse. They can't have too much bandwidth assigned to the channel but I feel it already makes the SD game look worse. I think it will go without saying that the regualar HD shows and NFL games will be degraded by this sub channel.

I just did a local scan on my E* 622 and the station comes up as KMOV-S on 4-2

Maybe they are streaming it out in analog....it really does look that bad!

Maybe they only have the sub channel if they are showing SD content. A HD game is scheduled at 3:00.

I have a 4x3 HDTV that does the 16x9 squeeze for HD signals and widescreen DVD's. So with an SD game, 4-1 is gives me a small picture with bars on all four sides... left and right vertical bars from CBS to fit the 4x3 game in a 16x9 broadcast, plus top and bottom horizontal bars to fit the 16x9 broadcast into my 4x3 HDTV. So I'm watching the game on channel 4-2 instead.

Picture is indeed horrible. Not only is all movement a pixellated mess, but even things standing perfectly still, like say, the score in the cormer.... are often STILL a pixellated mess.

But if KMOV is reading this thread.... please keep it that way!!!!!!! The absolute crap we're seeing on 4-2 is an indication you're stealing a *minimal* amount of bandwidth from 4-1 to accomodate this new subchannel. Please KEEP your bandwidth on 4-1 as high as possible and your bandwidth on 4-2 as LOW as possible.

But if KMOV is reading this thread.... please keep it that way!!!!!!! The absolute crap we're seeing on 4-2 is an indication you're stealing a *minimal* amount of bandwidth from 4-1 to accomodate this new subchannel. Please KEEP your bandwidth on 4-1 as high as possible and your bandwidth on 4-2 as LOW as possible.


Better yet if KMOV is reading (or even if they are not)...get rid of it altogether.

4-2 is not transmitting 5.1 audio either.

And here I thought that you couldn't find a bigger waste of bandwidth than "The Tube" or "WeatherPlus." Yet again, I'm wrong.

This is so dumb, it doesn't even fit into the "more is less" or the "less is more" catch-alls.
It's like, "the same is less." :rolleyes:

Seems as though KMOV is following KSDK's lead... :rolleyes:

multicrapting and now they can't remember to flip the switch...

Edit: Well they finally got to the switch...15 minutes into the 3:00 game...my point still stands though.

Just think, KMOV used to be the standard bearer of HDTV in the STL.

PS: Legitimate question here: why do they even bother with the "switch" to begin with? What I've witnessed when the switch is in the "HD position" SD programming comes thru fine as SD and HD progamming comes thru as HD, whereas when in the "SD position" SD is SD and HD is SD...

This is a sad day for HD in the St. Louis area. The Pittsburgh Denver game is in HD but not the stellar picture we have grown accustomed to on KMOV. They are stealing bandwidth and broacasting the game in SD on 4.2.
KTVI 2.1 now has a better picture.

Legitimate question here: why do they even bother with the "switch" to begin with? What I've witnessed when the switch is in the "HD position" SD programming comes thru as fine as SD and HD progamming comes thru as HD, whereas when in the "SD position" SD is SD and HD is SD...The main reason for "switching" is that it allows the local station to insert "local commercials."

When the feed comes from the network, the national commercials are included, but when it comes time to insert the local commercials, the national feed is either blank or it runs screen-saver type graphics, or network promos.

The stations have the local insert process computerized for the NTSC side, and I assume that this is why they switch to the NTSC feed at each break -- to ensure that they aren't missing local commercial sets (paydays).

In the early days of digital broadcasting, local stations rarely bothered to switch at each break, because there truly weren't enough viewers to warrant the effort. But they still had to remember to switch trom the locally generated daytime feed to the network HD programming feed when prime time started, and then again at the end of the prime-time cycle.

And, then again for the late-night programming cycle; for example, the local NBC affliliates would need to switch to the HD feed for the "Tonight Show," which has been in HD pretty much from the start of HD broadcasting, probably spring 1999.

Anyone on this board have a contact at KMOV?

Anyone on this board have a contact at KMOV?From the Local OTA resource guide on the first page of this thread:

KMOV Channel 4 contact:
programs@kmov.com
WNichol@kmov.com

I'm glad I have some archived content from before they started destroying the PQ.

I'm glad I have some archived content from before they started destroying the PQ.Hang onto them -- maybe someday they'll end up in the Smithsonian's "Golden Age of HDTV Broadcasting" exhibit... :D

FWIW, I have to think that the repetition of the network programming on 4.2 is prelude to a distinct subchannel. There have been reports that the CBS network has been working on some subchannel offering for its owned and affiliated stations -- I think it was called CBS.2 at one point.

Because TV stations ultimately depend on cable and satellite for most of their distribution, broadcasters have been lobbying hard at the FCC and Congress to require that cable (and possibly satellite) be REQUIRED to carry all digital streams, not just the primary (HD) one. So far this has been resisted, and the momentum on multicasting has dipped a bit.

But you can be sure that the National Association of Broadcasters lobby will keep pounding away at this issue until they get their way. A vote was scheduled on this at the FCC over the summer, but cancelled at the 11th hour when the chairman calculated that he didn't have the votes needed to carry. But this issue isn't going away, and unfortunately once it is mandated, there won't be any advocates out there to undo it.

Anyone on this board have a contact at KMOV?
John Vogt, Programming Director
jvogt@kmov.com

Walt Nichol, as Doug posted, is the KMOV Director of Engineering
WNichol@kmov.com

I've communicated with both in the past, and received timely responses.

Not sure I see what ya'll are talkin' 'bout. 4.1 looks the same to me. Of course, the Chargers/Browns looks like ass in SD.

Scott

Call me a defeatist, but sadly I think this is somethign we're simply going to have to live with.

Call me a defeatist, but sadly I think this is somethign we're simply going to have to live with.
I agree. As slow as the masses are switching over, when they get to HD they will see a picture much better than SD, but no where near as good as it can be. And what they don't know won't hurt them, just us.

TitanTV didn't have the Ram's game listed as HD today.

My HR10-250 will not accept remote commands, and the front panel buttons don't work either. Last week something similar happened, but after unplugging and rebooting, everything was fine. I would reboot, but I'd miss the football game during what might be a long reboot. Anyone else have similar problems?

Scott

^^^

Well, after submitting the last post, my Tivo just shut itself off and now is rebooting. I hate technology.

Scott

^^^^
Just rebooted and all is well. Yeah!

Scott

This is probably a silly question, but what the heck...

All this talk about stealing bandwidth with these stupid subchannels is a moot point to Charter subscribers, right? The reason I ask is because I don't know how Charter acquires its signals from the local channels. For example, if 4.2 is stealing bandwidth from 4.1, is 4.1 the signal that Charter is sending out, or is it something from an altogether different source?

With any luck the question that I'm asking is clear...

I understand your question, but I don't know the answer.

Hopefully someone else does.

When I read here about 4.2 I had to check it out. Much to my surprise, not only did I find 4.2, but I also found 5.3 and 5.4 in my channel guide. I was even able to tune to them, but there wasn't anything on them when I got there.

This is probably a silly question, but what the heck...

All this talk about stealing bandwidth with these stupid subchannels is a moot point to Charter subscribers, right? The reason I ask is because I don't know how Charter acquires its signals from the local channels. For example, if 4.2 is stealing bandwidth from 4.1, is 4.1 the signal that Charter is sending out, or is it something from an altogether different source?

With any luck the question that I'm asking is clear...

I'm pretty sure Charter gets it from the source KMOV.

Scott

When I read here about 4.2 I had to check it out. Much to my surprise, not only did I find 4.2, but I also found 5.3 and 5.4 in my channel guide. I was even able to tune to them, but there wasn't anything on them when I got there.

Well, isn't that good news. Maybe there's a contest afoot on how many subchannels they can create before everything becomes unwatchable.

This is probably a silly question, but what the heck...

All this talk about stealing bandwidth with these stupid subchannels is a moot point to Charter subscribers, right? The reason I ask is because I don't know how Charter acquires its signals from the local channels. For example, if 4.2 is stealing bandwidth from 4.1, is 4.1 the signal that Charter is sending out, or is it something from an altogether different source?

With any luck the question that I'm asking is clear...It's my understanding that Charter, DirecTV and DISH all get the same local feeds as go out over the air. Apparently the typical delivery is via high-speed landlines, but if the OTA HD feed has had bits diverted from it to accommodate the subchannels, the same reduced bandwidth HD feed is provided to cable and satellite.

While it would seem to be theoretically possible for a local station to provide cable and satellite with an "upstream" HD feed that is unadulterated by subchannels, no station I know of is doing that, probably because it would involve additional cost without any tangible financial benefit.

In fact, this sort of arrangement would be providing "competitors" with a higher quality product than what the station itself provides to OTA viewers. The only way I see that happening is if the cable and/or satellite companies were prepared to pay a premium that more than covered the additional cost of creating, distributing and managing that unadulterated HD feed.

Such an arrangement seems even more improbable when you consider that the traditional operating procedure for cable and satellite providers is to shave the bits they're already receiving in order to maximize their own finite bandwidth.

When KPLR began broadcasting "The Tube" this summer, I spoke with the head technical manager there and asked whether KPLR might deliver a "pure" HD feed to third parties. The response was that this wasn't something planned or under consideration -- probably because there's no demand for such a thing.

I just started playing around with a cool little device that's on sale this week at Best Buy for $99.. It's a USB2 based HD capture device (not much bigger than a thumb drive) by Pinnacle. It picked up all the digital channels in the area as soon as I set up its cute little antenna (a six inch telescoping arm that expands to about 2 1/2 feet). WRBU and KETC were kinda weak, but that was with no twiddling.

This little device couldn't be much easier to use. I was recording OTA HD in a few minutes. It plays back with its own software on the computer (using the system's video and sound cards). You need a Pentium 2.4ghz machine or a newer laptop, and XP, and it's not nearly as full featured or flexible as a PCI card like MyHD, but the beauty is that you can take this thing with you just about anywhere and plug it into a laptop for instant HD. And it's tiny! I was really surprised at how easy the installation was. The MPEG files it recorded to the hard drive went directly into Ulead Movie Factory 5 and were accepted as valid files for HD DVD creation.

Tomorrow I'm going to try it on my 1.6ghz laptop. If it can record HD to the laptop's drive, we have a winner. (The MyHD card is still a better choice if you have a free PCI slot, a few extra dollars and you don't plan to record on a laptop, and it gives you a lot more connectivity choices. But did I mention how cute this little thing is?)

Time-Warner Rolls Out No Fuss, No Skip "DVR" Service

The story excerpt below is from today's SkyREPORT newsletter, reporting on a variation of the networked DVR that was first unveiled as a product concept about a year or so ago. All the equipment is at the cable head end, so the customer doesn't have to deal with another set-top box. The downside is that because the cable company has control over the recording and playback, there's no way to skip commercials.

OK, everybody...backward march.

The following story excerpt is from the SkyREPORT newsletter:
____________________________________________________________
Here's a cool new product from the cable guys that (if things keep going in their current direction) could turn out to be even cooler for satellite. The product is Start Over, a Time Warner service that allows customers to come in at the middle of programs and, quite literally, start them over in order to watch from the beginning.

Now this is something satellite clearly cannot do at this point. And, by all reports, customers love it. The advertising community loves it too because ... here comes the biggie ... it does NOT let viewers skip over commercials.
____________________________________________________________

Thje full story is available at www.skyreport.com.

If this sort of product becomes the default DVR for cable, it seems like it just kicks open the door for a company like MyHD (or 100 others) to build a real CableCard-based DVR that doesn't kowtow to advertisers.

Joe, do you know if anyone in the PC-based DVR space is looking at this sort of possibility?

As slow as the masses are switching over, when they get to HD they will see a picture much better than SD, but no where near as good as it can be. And what they don't know won't hurt them, just us.


Exactly, why settle for great when we can have good enough.

Too busy for cutting and pasting the highlights this morning, but wanted to point out that TV Predictions has a number of interesting stories today, including:

Wal-Mart Drops 42-inch Panasonic Plasma Below $1300 (http://www.tvpredictions.com/walmarthd110606.htm)

InHD Loses InHD2 But Maybe Finds Its Mojo (http://www.tvpredictions.com/inhd2110406.htm)

Blockbuster Trialing HD DVD Rentals (http://www.tvpredictions.com/blockbusterhd110306.htm)

Attractive Holiday HDTV Prices May Put Squeeze on Manufacturer Margins (http://www.tvpredictions.com/hdholidays110606.htm)

I saw on KMOV's 10pm news that they are having election coverage all day on DT4.2.

Hopefully all will return to normal after that.

Last I heard, several PC manufacturers will have cablecard slots in their new Windows Vista HTPC's. But the catch for us DIY'ers is, cablecard tuners will be available ONLY in pre-built HTPC's from the major manufacturers. They will not be sold separately for those of us that like to build/upgrade PC's ourselves.

But then, the XP Media Center Edition is supposedly not available except on a prebuilt system either... and it'll take you less than 30 seconds to find it on newegg.com.

5-3 and 5-4? When I did my scan shortly before the Rams game yesterday, 4-2 was the only new channel I picked up on the HD Tivo.

But then, the XP Media Center Edition is supposedly not available except on a prebuilt system either... and it'll take you less than 30 seconds to find it on newegg.com.Robert, I think XP MCE was initially limited to being bundled with complete system (hardware) sales, but that Microsoft changed that policy when it did the last major update on MCE (or was it SP2?).

But then, I know that even previous to that Microsoft unbundling move that it was possible to get unbundled MCE through the gray market. That fact, and the need to boost market share, probably led Microsoft to officially unbundle.

If I'm not mistaken, MCE is also bundled in as part of several of the various flavors of Windows Vista.

Exactly, why settle for great when we can have good enough.


That's why millions of people use PC's instead of Macs

:) :p :D

Here's a cool new product from the cable guys that (if things keep going in their current direction) could turn out to be even cooler for satellite. The product is Start Over, a Time Warner service that allows customers to come in at the middle of programs and, quite literally, start them over in order to watch from the beginning.

Now this is something satellite clearly cannot do at this point. And, by all reports, customers love it. The advertising community loves it too because ... here comes the biggie ... it does NOT let viewers skip over commercials.
Perhaps I didn't fully understand the article. The only way I can see anyone getting excited about this "Start Over" system, is if they do not already have a full functioning HD DVR. Otherwise, someone please point out its purpose :confused:

Why would someone get excited about having the ability to "come in at the middle...and start over," when they could just set-it, forget-it, and watch-it whenever...uhm...without commercials.

Perhaps sitting on some fictitious DVR waiting list may change this view.

That's why millions of people use PC's instead of Macs

:) :p :D

And that's why anybody ever settled for anything but Amiga years ago - dumb PC and Mac users. :eek: :D

The only way I can see anyone getting excited about this "Start Over" system, is if they do not already have a full functioning HD DVR. Otherwise, someone please point out its purpose :confused:It's simply the latest, ultimately feckless, attempt by those who benefit from advertising to wrest back the control that was lost when the first consumer VCR arrived on the scene nearly 30 years ago.

Note that this product is offered by a cable company (Time Warner) that owns SUBSTANTIAL advertising-supported businesses. That is not a coincidence.

I have little doubt that DirecTV (News Corp) woukl be headed in the same direction, but for the fact that this can't be readily accomplished on a one-way broadcast network.Start Over will definitely be aped by other cable companies with vested interests similar to TW.

I just started playing around with a cool little device that's on sale this week at Best Buy for $99.. It's a USB2 based HD capture device (not much bigger than a thumb drive) by Pinnacle. It picked up all the digital channels in the area as soon as I set up its cute little antenna (a six inch telescoping arm that expands to about 2 1/2 feet). WRBU and KETC were kinda weak, but that was with no twiddling.

This little device couldn't be much easier to use. I was recording OTA HD in a few minutes. It plays back with its own software on the computer (using the system's video and sound cards). You need a Pentium 2.4ghz machine or a newer laptop, and XP, and it's not nearly as full featured or flexible as a PCI card like MyHD, but the beauty is that you can take this thing with you just about anywhere and plug it into a laptop for instant HD. And it's tiny! I was really surprised at how easy the installation was. The MPEG files it recorded to the hard drive went directly into Ulead Movie Factory 5 and were accepted as valid files for HD DVD creation.

Tomorrow I'm going to try it on my 1.6ghz laptop. If it can record HD to the laptop's drive, we have a winner. (The MyHD card is still a better choice if you have a free PCI slot, a few extra dollars and you don't plan to record on a laptop, and it gives you a lot more connectivity choices. But did I mention how cute this little thing is?)


Is that compatible with Windows MCE?

I just started playing around with a cool little device that's on sale this week at Best Buy for $99.. It's a USB2 based HD capture device (not much bigger than a thumb drive) by Pinnacle. It picked up all the digital channels in the area as soon as I set up its cute little antenna (a six inch telescoping arm that expands to about 2 1/2 feet). WRBU and KETC were kinda weak, but that was with no twiddling.

This little device couldn't be much easier to use. I was recording OTA HD in a few minutes. It plays back with its own software on the computer (using the system's video and sound cards). You need a Pentium 2.4ghz machine or a newer laptop, and XP, and it's not nearly as full featured or flexible as a PCI card like MyHD, but the beauty is that you can take this thing with you just about anywhere and plug it into a laptop for instant HD. And it's tiny! I was really surprised at how easy the installation was. The MPEG files it recorded to the hard drive went directly into Ulead Movie Factory 5 and were accepted as valid files for HD DVD creation.

Tomorrow I'm going to try it on my 1.6ghz laptop. If it can record HD to the laptop's drive, we have a winner. (The MyHD card is still a better choice if you have a free PCI slot, a few extra dollars and you don't plan to record on a laptop, and it gives you a lot more connectivity choices. But did I mention how cute this little thing is?)

Perk!! This is interesting. Please report back on the laptop experience. Which VC do you have in the laptop you're going to try it in?
My Viao, is 1.8, has XPP, but it has a lower end Nvidia. My wife's Gateway is a 2.2, has XPMC and a MX440. Think she'll notice?

Is that compatible with Windows MCE?

It's supposed to be, but I don't use MCE, so can't say for sure.

I did an automatic software upgrade after the initial install and am having all sorts of problems on the desktop computer getting things to work properly. It reminds me of a lot of other Pinnacle products I've tried to get to work in the past. Not looking good right now.

As for the laptop, mine is a 1.6ghz HP and it chokes to death trying to deal with the HD signal. The built in graphics are not the best. Maybe a 1.8ghz machine with better graphics would work. With the upgraded software causing so many issues, though, I don't like what I'm seeing. Today has been as ugly as last night was pretty. If I can't get it sorted out fast, this bad boy is going back to BB.

For any interested, if you live in the Cardinals (or Detroit) markets, you can download the digital version of WS game 5. It is free, and available in either WMV or MPEG4. The MPEG4 with QuickTime has good PQ.
You need to be registered on MLB.com, which is also free.
http://www.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/video/clincher_download.jsp

The free downloads also include all of the playoff clinching games.
9/29-vs MIL
10/8-vs SD
10/19-vs NYM
10/27-vs DET

Caution: The MPEG4's are around 800mb each, the WMV's around 550mb.

It's supposed to be, but I don't use MCE, so can't say for sure.

I did an automatic software upgrade after the initial install and am having all sorts of problems on the desktop computer getting things to work properly. It reminds me of a lot of other Pinnacle products I've tried to get to work in the past. Not looking good right now.

As for the laptop, mine is a 1.6ghz HP and it chokes to death trying to deal with the HD signal. The built in graphics are not the best. Maybe a 1.8ghz machine with better graphics would work. With the upgraded software causing so many issues, though, I don't like what I'm seeing. Today has been as ugly as last night was pretty. If I can't get it sorted out fast, this bad boy is going back to BB.
Sigh....sounds like you'll end up rolling it back.
Well, at least we know it's coming, perhaps just not today. :(

I saw on KMOV's 10pm news that they are having election coverage all day on DT4.2.

Hopefully all will return to normal after that.

I emailed Walt Nichol at KMOV this morning to complain about the signal degradation, especially during the LSU-Tennessee game Saturday. It was the worst quality HD SEC game I have seen KMOV broadcast. (The LSU win with 9 seconds left allowed me to overcome that. :D ) He replied rather quickly, to his credit:

"Thank you for your input.

We have initiated a 4.2 channel and will be using it to provide full time election coverage from 7 PM until conclusion on Tuesday.

We are planning for a local weather/news/business channel on 4.2 sometime before the end of the year. We will certainly adjust the bit rate given to the second channel to minimize its impact on 4.1.


Walt"

I guess we will have to put up with the 4.2 broadcast, but I hope he can make the promised adjustment to minimize the impact on 4.1.

Mike

(GO TIGERS!)

Just got a Moxie to replace our Charter hi-def box. I'd been using DVI out but now find out from the Charter installer that DVI out is not active on the Moxie. Is this right? Is this only in St.Louis market or a Charter deal? Is this something that can be activated by Charter or in the set-up? Component doesn't look bad and I'm not sure I could tell the difference but I was stunned not to be able to use DVI out.
Any info appreciated. Jim

The only way to minimize the impact is not to have a 4.2.

Congrats to ABC for producing the CMA in HD. :) Hopefully the trend will catch on!
Most of the other awards shows, thus far, have been in SD.
IIRC, last season, the Grammys was the sole HD awards production.

I emailed Walt Nichol at KMOV this morning to complain about the signal degradation, especially during the LSU-Tennessee game Saturday. It was the worst quality HD SEC game I have seen KMOV broadcast. (The LSU win with 9 seconds left allowed me to overcome that. :D ) He replied rather quickly, to his credit:

"Thank you for your input.

We have initiated a 4.2 channel and will be using it to provide full time election coverage from 7 PM until conclusion on Tuesday.

We are planning for a local weather/news/business channel on 4.2 sometime before the end of the year. We will certainly adjust the bit rate given to the second channel to minimize its impact on 4.1.


Walt"



I guess we will have to put up with the 4.2 broadcast, but I hope he can make the promised adjustment to minimize the impact on 4.1.

Mike

(GO TIGERS!)


Looks like I guessed right. That's the trigger for multi-casting in our market. Get set for a 720p world.

KTVI and KDNL will probably follow suit within the year, especially after the April 2007 13+ inch DTV mandate. My guess is that KDNL will go with ABC News Now for 30-2, and KTVI might actually go with Fox News for 2-2. KDNL could do ESPN SD on weekends as well for 30-2. The Discovery Channel or the Disney Channel are outside possibilities for KDNL. KTVI could also easily do a 2-3 for Fox Sports SD, since Fox is 720p.

KMOV could do Nickelodeon as well for 4-3.

Weather Plus is essentially CNBC/MSNBC's weather, and we *might* see a 5-3 for CNBC during market hours, and MSNBC for nights.

KPLR might go with 11-3 for CNN, or another Time Warner property. TNT, maybe?

During special events, like the World Series/Olympics, 1080i will probably be restored.

Actually if KTVI started multicasting, I doubt we'd see any difference at all. Their bit rate is usually around 10-11mbps now... less than KPLR and KSDK even after their subchannels are deducted from their main channel bandwidth.

KDNL is showing the CMA awards as we speak. Aren't they usually on CBS and in SD? They're HD this year and looking fabulous. Man, that Carrie Underwood is hot.

Totally off topic, I wish the No Call List law applied to politicians as well as companies. My phone's been ringing off the hook all day with recorded pitches for every candidate for everything!

Wow,

I detest country music but I have been watching it on and off the entire evening simply because it is visually stunning. The sound is spectacular as well......plenty of activity in the rear speakers.

During special events, like the World Series/Olympics, 1080i will probably be restored.

Sadly, this won't be an option. There have been numerous occations when 5.2 should have been turned off to yield better HD PQ, but it wasn't....the Olympics come to mind, as do Nascar (not that I watch) and even Sunday night football this season. Weather Plus means more to KSDK than good HD PQ and I suspect the other networks will follow their lead (err, PBS's lead).

Unfortunately, multicasting and sub-channels are here to stay. The line has been drawn in the sand (PBS/NBC). Market-share is everything, nothing else matters. :mad:

Looks like I guessed right. That's the trigger for multi-casting in our market. Get set for a 720p world.

KTVI and KDNL will probably follow suit within the year, especially after the April 2007 13+ inch DTV mandate. My guess is that KDNL will go with ABC News Now for 30-2, and KTVI might actually go with Fox News for 2-2. KDNL could do ESPN SD on weekends as well for 30-2. The Discovery Channel or the Disney Channel are outside possibilities for KDNL. KTVI could also easily do a 2-3 for Fox Sports SD, since Fox is 720p.

KMOV could do Nickelodeon as well for 4-3.

Weather Plus is essentially CNBC/MSNBC's weather, and we *might* see a 5-3 for CNBC during market hours, and MSNBC for nights.

KPLR might go with 11-3 for CNN, or another Time Warner property. TNT, maybe?

During special events, like the World Series/Olympics, 1080i will probably be restored.

The broadcasters with cable properties aren't going to give away ESPN, Discovery, Fox News, CNN, TNT, etc. free-to-air--they get $$ per subscriber for those from the cable companies. Instead I'd expect self-supporting stuff like home shopping or channels that they bundle free on cable... or possibly newer cable networks that aren't getting past the digital tier, like CBS' CSTV.

The only exception might be KDNL... where putting something on 30-2 might be enough of a carrot to get Charter to pay for 30-1 and 30-2. But that "something" would have to be a Sinclair "something," not a Disney "something", and Sinclair doesn't own broadcast rights other than ABC's that anyone would pay for.

So what's the point of selling 1080P televisions in a 720P world?

That's why millions of people use PC's instead of Macs

:) :p :DI thought that was filed under "why be great when all you have to be is woefully inadequate"

Unfortunately, multicasting and sub-channels are here to stay. The line has been drawn in the sand (PBS/NBC). Market-share is everything, nothing else matters. :mad:

Ok, but can any of the stations demonstrate that the sub-channel(s) actually improves their ratings?

Ok, but can any of the stations demonstrate that the sub-channel(s) actually improves their ratings?It isn't ratings that they're focused on. It's an additional set of programming where advertising can be sold. But, of course, ratings for the subchannel will determine advertising rates, and if no one is watching, then it will be difficult to sell advertising.

But even a relatively small audience, particularly for very targeted programming, could be attractive to certain advertisers than want to reach those specific viewers.

But by all accounts, NBC affiliates are doing well with WeatherPlus, and ratings will surely follow if most, like KSDK, are able to arrange separate cable carriage.

Our best bet for this being nipped in the bud is that "multcasting must carry" doesn't happen, but as I said over the weekend, there's ultimately so much at stake that it's difficult to see the NAB not eventually figuring out how to get its way -- either via the FCC or directly through Congress.

We Interrupt Your Normal AVS Programming...

...for the following St. Louis housekeeping break:

In the past, we used to begin each month of the St. Louis discussion with an entirely new thread and usually that started with a cut/paste of basic resource information that is now buried back on the very first page of this discussion thread.

Because of its location, a lot of that general, introductory information about HDTV and OTA reception is now easily overlooked, especially with the discussion here stretching back more than 3 years and approaching 600 pages.

So, in order to this introductory information more accessible, I post an advisory/reminder note similar to this every couple of weeks. The idea is to make this general resource information more visible and easier to find for more readers.

With HDTV sales increasing every month, we're getting more and more newcomers here, which is a great thing to see. But like most of us when we took home our first HDTV, there's a huge amount to learn beyond where to point the remote and which buttons to push.

Hopefully, you'll find this information of some use...

Tower Maps, Your Satellite/Antenna Rights & Local Station Feedback (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=2995679&&#post2995679)

Using An Antenna to Receive Local HD Stations (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=2995718&&#post2995718)

Common Questions about HDTV (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=2995791&&#post2995791)

HD Programming Available in St. Louis (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8523674&&#post8523674)

Why Isn't KDNL-DT (ABC) Available via Charter? (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8072643&&#post8072643)

New! St. Louis Blues in HD Schedule (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8678636&&#post8678636)

Finally, I want to remind everyone that you can access the St. Louis HDTV discussion here at AVS directly by using the shortcut URL that has been arranged.

The short-form URL also makes it very easy to remember and give the address to anyone you know who's just getting into HDTV.

The shortcut URL is: www.stlhdtv.info

PinkSplice,

Multcasting on a 1080i channel doesn't suddenly transform it into 720p. Not sure how you've made that connection, but multicasting, depending on how much bandwidth is stolen from a 1080i channel, will result first in motion artifacts and then (as more bits are stolen) a loss of resolution. But there's no direct relationship between 1080i suddenly becoming 720p because of multicasting.

In fact, 1080i as a HDTV format is particularly unsuitable for multicasting -- multicasting works much better for 720p, because progressive video compresses much more efficiently than interlaced video. When compression is more efficient, there's effectively more bandwidth to spare before deploying extra program streams undermines HD picture quality.

That's not to say that 720p video can't be torpedoed by multicasting if the bandwidth diverted is high enough, but the effects of multicasting won't be as apparent on 720p, given a subchannel with the same bit payload as a subchannel on a 1080i station.

This is why PBS stations take the national PBS HD feed, which is originated as 1080i, and convert it to 720p. By broadcasting in 720p, they can do more with the same bandwidth. If the local PBS stations were sending out a 1080i HD feed AND three subchannels, I would expect that the HD channel would be nothing but all-pixels, all the time.

But three subchannels on KETC-DT, despite the fact that they are broadcasting in 720p, still makes the HD channel look like ass...

Microsoft to Offer HD Downloads via XBox 360

The following story excerpt is from today's TV Predictions newsletter:
__________________________________________________________
Microsoft says it's turning the XBox 360 video game player into a High-Definition TV player.

The company announced yesterday that console owners will soon be able to download high-def movies and shows and display them on the TV.

Early high-def titles available for download will likely include Mission Impossible 3 and Superman Returns. The movies will be available for rent while the TV shows will be for sale. but pricing was not revealed.

The service, which will launch November 22 (five days after the launch of Sony's Play Station 3), will permit subscribers to download HD shows over the Net onto the XBox 360. They then can watch the programs on the high-def set.
__________________________________________________________

To read the full story, click here. (http://www.tvpredictions.com/xboxhd110706.htm)

Microsoft to Offer HD Downloads via XBox 360

The following story excerpt is from today's TV Predictions newsletter:
__________________________________________________________
Microsoft says it's turning the XBox 360 video game player into a High-Definition TV player....I saw that. What's really dumb about it is that the XBox 360 HD is only 20 GBs and even a casual user like me only has about 10-12 GBs of free space. Not much room for downloading HD content. There is rumor of a 80 GB XB360 drive, but it isn't announced.

I'm still waiting for cheap, streaming HD video on demand...and I'm still not biting on the HD-DVD/BRD stupidity, not even for the $200 XBox HD-DVD addon.

Ok, but can any of the stations demonstrate that the sub-channel(s) actually improves their ratings?
I couldn't agree more John, and no, probably not. But, it doesn't matter. If NBC and PBS do it, ABC, CBS and FOX have no choice but to follow suit. What if...just what if, NBC gains a smidgen more market-share having sub's. It's simply not a chance, no matter the stakes, the others are willing to risk.

As Doug mentioned, it is all about revenues, which is all about ratings, but ratings and the eventual revenue come from market-share. TV is no different than any other business model.

Moving it closer to home....will adding HD to the local News broadcasts on KMOV and KTVI increase/decrease their ratings over KSDK....probably not.
Will KMOV and KTVI do it...absolutely....they have no choice.

PinkSplice,

Multcasting on a 1080i channel doesn't suddenly transform it into 720p. Not sure how you've made that connection, but multicasting, depending on how much bandwidth is stolen from a 1080i channel, will result first in motion artifacts and then (as more bits are stolen) a loss of resolution. But there's no direct relationship between 1080i suddenly becoming 720p because of multicasting.

In fact, 1080i as a HDTV format is particularly unsuitable for multicasting -- multicasting works much better for 720p, because progressive video compresses much more efficiently than interlaced video. When compression is more efficient, there's effectively more bandwidth to spare before deploying extra program streams undermines HD picture quality.

That's not to say that 720p video can't be torpedoed by multicasting if the bandwidth diverted is high enough, but the effects of multicasting won't be as apparent on 720p, given a subchannel with the same bit payload as a subchannel on a 1080i station.

This is why PBS stations take the national PBS HD feed, which is originated as 1080i, and convert it to 720p. By broadcasting in 720p, they can do more with the same bandwidth. If the local PBS stations were sending out a 1080i HD feed AND three subchannels, I would expect that the HD channel would be nothing but all-pixels, all the time.

But three subchannels on KETC-DT, despite the fact that they are broadcasting in 720p, still makes the HD channel look like ass...

I am aware of the conversion/bandwith issues. What *might* happen is that one or more of the nationals might go native with 720p like Fox. Rupert ain't dumb. And 720p seems to handle sports action better in many situations.

Both Mom and I like the 720p stream on KETC. Compared to the NTSC we have been watching all our lives, it is wonderful.

What might happen is something like this:

N-1 1080i (with bitching from video freaks)
N-2 480i SD

or

N-1 720p
N-2 480p
N-3 480i SD

or

N-1 720p
N-2 480i SD
N-3 480i SD
N-4 480i SD

(KETC's current model)

...
Both Mom and I like the 720p stream on KETC. Compared to the NTSC we have been watching all our lives, it is wonderful....Just as an FYI: it's all still NTSC in this country: 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p. The alternate to NTSC is PAL, used in Europe and other parts of the world. NTSC and PAL both support standard and high definition video.

I am aware of the conversion/bandwith issues. What *might* happen is that one or more of the nationals might go native with 720p like Fox. Rupert ain't dumb. And 720p seems to handle sports action better in many situations.I think any sort of change is highly unlikely, due to both the operating cost and logistics involved in making that change, as well as the additional capital costs that would be likely to result.

Maybe Jim from KDNL can weigh in on this prospect (though I wouldn't blame him if he doesn't go anywhere near it).

These broadcasters have just invested a buttload of money in 1080i plans -- with no payoff anywhere in sight -- and they're not going to suddenly change course because viewers are bitching about 1080i HD picture quality alongside subchannels.

It would be NICE to think that could happen, but it sounds like a fairy tale...for one thing, someone at CBS or NBC would have to stand up and admit they made a huge mistake in selecting the 1080i format.

Mistakes like that don't speak up, they clear out their desk under the watchful eye of security... :)

Just as an FYI: it's all still NTSC in this country: 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p. The alternate to NTSC is PAL, used in Europe and other parts of the world. NTSC and PAL both support standard and high definition video.Dean, that's not correct. NTSC broadcasting is limited to 480i resolution. And that's not even the whole story, as NTSC is based on composite video, and everything in the ATSC world is based on component video. There is a HUGE difference here, as a significant amount of color information is tossed away, never to be recovered, with NTSC video.

PAL also does not support HD resolutions, though PAL is based on component (actually RGB) video.

Dean, that's not correct. NTSC broadcasting is limited to 480i resolution. And that's not even the whole story, as NTSC is based on composite video, and everything in the ATSC world is based on component video. There is a HUGE difference here, as a significant amount of color information is tossed away, never to be recovered, with NTSC video.

PAL also does not support HD resolutions, though PAL is based on component (actually RGB) video.Thanks Doug. I stand corrected. In that case, I'm sure I've seen "NTSC" used uncorrected in the consumer industry.

But one question. If NTSC is limited to 480i, then why do I see DVD players (like my Arcam) supporting NTSC at 720x480p and PAL at 720x576p? Is it just because the video is stored interlaced on the DVD?

Moving it closer to home....will adding HD to the local News broadcasts on KMOV and KTVI increase/decrease their ratings over KSDK....probably not.
Will KMOV and KTVI do it...absolutely....they have no choice.

I would watch KMOV or KTVI over KSDK. I end up watching so much in SD because I watch a lot of National Geographic, History Channel, CNN & HGTV. Then of course Battle Star on SciFi, Rescue Me & The Closer on FX. So anytime I have an HD option, I tend to choose it. I don't really care for KSDK news or their anchors, but I watch. Pretty sad state IMO.

In regards to the CMA's. I thought the picture quality was great but I was having a lot of strange behavior with the audio mixing on many of the music performances. I was picking it up via DirecTV H20 MP4 and just listening to the analog stereo audio out to the TV. The performance by Miranda Lambert in particular had a strange mix. I heard mostly background vocals and acoustic guitar. Weird mix on the Vince Gill number at the end, too. By contrast the rest of the event, including canned music, sounded fine.

It would be NICE to think that could happen, but it sounds like a fairy tale...for one thing, someone at CBS or NBC would have to stand up and admit they made a huge mistake in selecting the 1080i format.

Mistakes like that don't speak up, they clear out their desk under the watchful eye of security... :)

And sometimes take golden parachutes worth millions...

Why in hell did they pick interlaced?

Just got a Moxie to replace our Charter hi-def box. I'd been using DVI out but now find out from the Charter installer that DVI out is not active on the Moxie. Is this right? Is this only in St.Louis market or a Charter deal? Is this something that can be activated by Charter or in the set-up? Component doesn't look bad and I'm not sure I could tell the difference but I was stunned not to be able to use DVI out.
Any info appreciated. Jim

My DVI port works fine on my Moxi box. Your installer's information is very out of date. There was a brief time when that was true, but I believe it's been switched on since last spring.

But that aside, you won't see a big difference between component and DVI.

Thanks Doug. I stand corrected. In that case, I'm sure I've seen "NTSC" used uncorrected in the consumer industry.

But one question. If NTSC is limited to 480i, then why do I see DVD players (like my Arcam) supporting NTSC at 720x480p and PAL at 720x576p? Is it just because the video is stored interlaced on the DVD?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/576i

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/576iI'm talking about 576p. My DVD player outputs progressive PAL. And my TV displays it too, showing info as: 720x576p @ 50 Hz.

Just as an FYI: it's all still NTSC in this country: 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p. The alternate to NTSC is PAL, used in Europe and other parts of the world. NTSC and PAL both support standard and high definition video.

You know when you're going to post an FYI, it helps to provide correct information :) So in a further FYI, or actually the FYI with correct information...


NTSC (National Television System Committee) defines resolution at 480i only. As soon as you start talking about a resolution beyond 480i it is no longer NTSC.

480p, 720p, 1080i and 1080p are all Advanced Television Systems Committee standards. It ain't NTSC if it ain't 480i :D



Cheers,

I would watch KMOV or KTVI over KSDK. I end up watching so much in SD because I watch a lot of National Geographic, History Channel, CNN & HGTV. Then of course Battle Star on SciFi, Rescue Me & The Closer on FX. So anytime I have an HD option, I tend to choose it. I don't really care for KSDK news or their anchors, but I watch. Pretty sad state IMO.
You're not alone, Mo. Given the choice, I too would opt to go back to watching KTVI, as I did before KSDK went HD. As soon as KTVI makes the switch, I'm there.
I don't like KSDK's news, but I loathe SD more, and when it comes down to it, it's all the same news, just presented by different people in a different format. I think the thing I detest most about KSDK is their, "we're KSDK...bow to us" attitude.

I believe with the present small HD viewership, both locally and nationwide, by the time the others catch-up with KSDK and offer local HD broadcasts also, the slight increase in market-share now being enjoyed by KSDK will be moot. OTOH, as each day passes, and a HD viewer switches to KSDK just for the HD, as you and I have, it increases the eventual risk of that viewer not returning to the competitor.
KDNL, KTVI and KMOV are not about to sit around too much longer to find out.

I'm talking about 576p. My DVD player outputs progressive PAL. And my TV displays it too, showing info as: 720x576p @ 50 Hz.


You can output progressive NTSC or PAL by rebuilding the frames in an Inverse Telecine procedure.

This is nothing new. It's still NTSC video at its core; but a deinterlacer gets you back the original movies frames, albeit in a 3:2 cadence.

Cheers,

You know when you're going to post an FYI, it helps to provide correct information :) ...Yeah, yeah, yeah...OK, I'm just gonna put myself on my ignore list. :o ;)

Joe C,
Curious and being lazy....approximately how many titles are now available in the HD DVD and BluRay formats?

Unfortunately, multicasting and sub-channels are here to stay.
They should license two channels, one for full-bandwidth HDTV and the other for all the junk they care throw at it.

Thanks Doug. I stand corrected. In that case, I'm sure I've seen "NTSC" used uncorrected in the consumer industry.

But one question. If NTSC is limited to 480i, then why do I see DVD players (like my Arcam) supporting NTSC at 720x480p and PAL at 720x576p? Is it just because the video is stored interlaced on the DVD?Yeah, there are too many terms and technobabble flying around, so that's definitely part of the problem. I guess that makes ME part of the problem, too... ;)

To explain this, let's start by distinguishing between NTSC broadcasting and DVDs that are mastered as 480i to disc.

In traditional NTSC broadcasting, the 6 MHz that the government allocates to broadcasters can't support analog transmissions that exceed 480i resolution. In fact, interlaced video was devised specifically to get around the problem of fitting a 480-line image down a 6 mHz pipe -- it simply couldn't be done with enough frequency to produce stable, non-flickering images. So, some bright spark came up with the idea of sending out consecutive interlaced 240-line images and doing that roughly 60 times per second. That solved one part of the problem, with the conversion of RGB color information to composite video being the other major part of the bandwidth solution. Both of these can be thought of as very early forms of video compression, though they don't work at all the we think about more advanced, pixel-by-pixel based compression schemes today.

FYI -- one of the really cool things (to me, at least) about the development of the NTSC color television system is that all of the specification work was done with virtually no prototyping. Slide rulers and graph paper ruled the day. For all its faults, it's pretty amazing that something as complicated as the NTSC color television system, a system that served us well for more than 50 years, was done mostly as a theoretical exercise.

FWIW, both digital and HD broadcasting work within the same 6 MHz bandwidth as traditional NTSC broadcasting -- it's just that MPEG digital compression allows much, much more efficient use of that limited pipe, so much so that the same bandwidth could be used to produce roughly six MPEG-compressed NTSC-quality channels (no HD channel) without any loss of picture/audio information, or even more with quality sacrifices.

Your answer on DVD is correct, but let me add to it. DVD was designed first and foremost to be compatible with the NTSC-only televisions that made up roughly 99.99% of the TVs in existence then. And that's primarily why the DVD is mastered in 480i format.

FWIW, I hear all the time that "this DVD or that DVD" is "a 480p DVD," but in fact there isn't any such thing -- all DVDs are mastered as 480-line interlaced video. Where DVD players can do progressive output, it's simply a matter of taking the consecutive 240-odd-line and 240-even-line fields and reassembling within the player into complete 480-line progressive frames that are then sent to the display device.

Note that this de-interlacing process is relatively easy to do for DVD material that originated on film, because each film frame has been split into 240-line video fields and putting them together is like snapping a jigsaw puzzle back into place. With DVD material that originated as video, the de-interlacing process is much more difficult, because the odd-line field was acquired at one instant in time and then the even-line field was acquired 1/60th of a second later -- as a result the puzzle pieces don't fit together so well, particularly when there is motion taking place. As a result, there's a need for all sorts of picture processing gymnastics to get decent-looking progressive video when the original source isn't film.

You're also correct that DVD has more horizontal resolution that the average NTSC broadcast, and this is again a limitation imposed on broadcasting by the 6 MHz bandwidth available. But then, there is no limitation (beyond storage space) for the DVD, so the full horizontal resolution of the NTSC system (roughly 720 lines) can be much more easily realized.

Hope I haven't made something confusing even worse... :)

Why in hell did they pick interlaced?Great question -- those who picked it, did so largely because interlaced video was all they'd ever known. It was definitely a comfort level issue.

The other aspect to this, when the ATSC spec was being hammered out by the Grand Alliance, the computer guys with a seat at the table (Intel, Microsoft, others) all were DEMANDING progressive video, for obvious reasons. No doubt that only solidified the broadcast TV industry to cling to interlaced video.

Ultimately an agreement for one or the other couldn't be realized, so we ended up with both as a compromise. In a way, this was actually a very fortunate outcome, because if an agreement had been easy to reach, we might have ended up with a fixed, and inflexible, standard of one resolution, one frame rate, etc.. And that would have become, in short order, archaic.

Instead, we are adjusting to a world of flexible, and likely evolving, formats. I think the broadcasters were right to fear this sort of world, and it will ultimately mean that they will always be a step, or two, or three behind the cutting edge.

In that sense, it probably makes sense for them to have a bias of quantity over quality, because they are not going to be able to keep the pace on the quality side. And, to be fair, it's never what their customers (viewers or advertisers) have demanded.

Yeah, yeah, yeah...OK, I'm just gonna put myself on my ignore list. :o ;)

We all stick our foot in our mouth sometimes. No worries :D

The key is to have a high "Way to go" vs "foot in mouth" ratio ;)

Cheers,

Doug,

Think back to when the ATSC standards were being hammered out. That was what, 10+ years ago.

Would even very rosy predictions have anticipated these events:

1) The relatively rapid demise of the CRT.

2) The extremely rapid rise to popularity of the flat panel TV.

3) The quick placement into affordable levels of 1080p television sets.

I don't think so.

Also 1080p24 and 1080p30 are in the ATSC standards ;)

Cheers,

Doug says:

It isn't ratings that they're focused on. It's an additional set of programming where advertising can be sold. But, of course, ratings for the subchannel will determine advertising rates, and if no one is watching, then it will be difficult to sell advertising.

There's no mechanism in place for gathering ratings for the subchannel. Neilsen doesn't track 'em so there's no way to tell. All they can do is rely on an extrapolated value based on their SD Weather Plus channel carried independently from CHarter and other cable type broadband affiliates.

But even a relatively small audience, particularly for very targeted programming, could be attractive to certain advertisers than want to reach those specific viewers.

I suppose, but I think it will be hard to show a profit even with advertising. At best, break even. More likely a loss.

But by all accounts, NBC affiliates are doing well with WeatherPlus, and ratings will surely follow if most, like KSDK, are able to arrange separate cable carriage.

What accounts? Not that I'm doubting you but I'd liike to see some evidence of it :)


Our best bet for this being nipped in the bud is that "multcasting must carry" doesn't happen, but as I said over the weekend, there's ultimately so much at stake that it's difficult to see the NAB not eventually figuring out how to get its way -- either via the FCC or directly through Congress.

Well since NAB does a good job of manipulating both of these entities without regard for consumers why should that change?

Moving it closer to home....will adding HD to the local News broadcasts on KMOV and KTVI increase/decrease their ratings over KSDK....probably not.
Will KMOV and KTVI do it...absolutely....they have no choice.

The cams are getting pretty cheap. If memory serves they're at the 1K price point for consumer grade cams, and if they're half way decent they might well just use consumer grade cams.

I don't know how much the production infrastructure costs though.

Cheers,

Doug,

Think back to when the ATSC standards were being hammered out. That was what, 10+ years ago.

Would even very rosy predictions have anticipated these events:

1) The relatively rapid demise of the CRT.

2) The extremely rapid rise to popularity of the flat panel TV.

3) The quick placement into affordable levels of 1080p television sets.

I don't think so.

Also 1080p24 and 1080p30 are in the ATSC standards ;)I agree on all your points -- I don't think any of these developments were even really thought about, or if they were it was a very small minority that was probably viewed as crackpots.

I understand that 1080p is one of the 36 ATSC sanctioned formats. While I don't know this for a fact, because noone thought about compression codecs improving the way it has, but I think that 1080p was included primarily so there would be standards in the mastering and archiving world. Now, it's easy to see that this was a fortunate accommodation, if that's what it was.

But I also think there will be futher pushing of the envelope beyond 1080p -- probably not for a while, but it won't take anything like another 50 years to pass. One limiting factor is that it's been shown that it takes roughly a five-fold increase in resolution to make the average viewer really sit up and notice -- so it will require a dramatic jump forward for companies in the industry to invest in the infrastructure to make that happen.

For me, the best thing about the arrival of 1080p is that it moves us just another step closer to the day when interlaced video is left for dead -- we're not there yet, but we're now truly on the way.

I don't think we'll see anyone jonesing for 1500 x 2666 "super HD" in the next few years. But at some point, there will be another quantum jump forward, though likely not before I'm taking my meals through a straw (or I'm underground and I'm a meal for some other creature). :)

Joe C,
Curious and being lazy....approximately how many titles are now available in the HD DVD and BluRay formats?

I don't know for sure, but I just counted 111 titles on the HD DVD "The Look and Sound of Perfect" Web site, but I'm not sure if that number is current. I think Blu-ray is under that, but the number for both is accelerating very rapidly. Many more titles are slated for release for the holiday season.

With multicasting and bit starved satellite broadcasts becoming more and more the norm, these formats look like our best bets for quality HD in the short term, and maybe for a long time. I have nine HD DVD titles that I've bought so far, but that number will go up. There are lots of titles already announced, and some studios don't announce very far in advance. And I'm still only watching with a 720p projector. I'm waiting at least a few months for the prices to drop (and the brightness to go up) on 1080p projectors.

John,

On WeatherPlus, you're right that there isn't any data out there. But I don't think ratings would really matter at this point if they were available, as broadcasters are just starting to test the sort of programming that they send out over potential subchannels.

I doubt that the cost to produce W+ is in any way significant, as it's really just leveraging costs, equipment, expertise that the local stations are already paying for but only using an hour or two per day. Now they're aggregating all the idle capacity and channeling it (pun intended) toward something that has potential to produce a separate incremental revenue stream.

Personally, I have about as much time for weather news as I do the rest of the local news. I think my aversion to weather stems from 5 1/2 years of living in London (nearly a decade, I say) where the order of the day, every day, was slow-mo precipitation. As a result, I'm a fatalist about weather -- I either deal with it or I stay home out of the elements.

I remember when I first encountered the Weather Channel and thinking it was the stupidest idea I'd heard of -- so, of course, it's extremely popular.

Anyway, as much as I am anti-KSDK, I tip my hat to them on WeatherPlus, because I think it is probably a winner (reverse psychology?). Seriously, the fact that Charter agreed to carry this, when the overall stance of cable companies is to be non-cooperative on subchannels, at least suggests that it's something they think viewers will respond to. And I suspect that's not just something they're doing to be good guys -- presumably they will at some point participate in the revenue aspect of it, either on the advertising side or the ability to charge more for carriage.

To be my own devil's advocate, Charter has (or is supposed to) pick up "The Tube," which seems completely pointless, no matter how you look at it.

Seriously, the fact that Charter agreed to carry this, when the overall stance of cable companies is to be non-cooperative on subchannels, at least suggests that it's something they think viewers will respond to. And I suspect that's not just something they're doing to be good guys -- presumably they will at some point participate in the revenue aspect of it, either on the advertising side or the ability to charge more for carriage.
I think more likely the latter, and/or, KSDK/NBC force-fed the carriage through other negotiations.
Charter surely didn't step up saying, "sure...we'll be the guinea for your guinea."

Does anyone else out there experience extreme delay when switching channels using Charters HD box. I don't know if it is because of my tv or the guide upgrade.

Any info would be appreciated.

You're not alone, Mo. Given the choice, I too would opt to go back to watching KTVI, as I did before KSDK went HD. As soon as KTVI makes the switch, I'm there.
I don't like KSDK's news, but I loathe SD more, and when it comes down to it, it's all the same news, just presented by different people in a different format. I think the thing I detest most about KSDK is their, "we're KSDK...bow to us" attitude.

I believe with the present small HD viewership, both locally and nationwide, by the time the others catch-up with KSDK and offer local HD broadcasts also, the slight increase in market-share now being enjoyed by KSDK will be moot. OTOH, as each day passes, and a HD viewer switches to KSDK just for the HD, as you and I have, it increases the eventual risk of that viewer not returning to the competitor.
KDNL, KTVI and KMOV are not about to sit around too much longer to find out.

I too prefer KTVI. And KSDK is about as modest and self-effacing as Fox News, ironically...

John,

On WeatherPlus, you're right that there isn't any data out there. But I don't think ratings would really matter at this point if they were available, as broadcasters are just starting to test the sort of programming that they send out over potential subchannels.

I doubt that the cost to produce W+ is in any way significant, as it's really just leveraging costs, equipment, expertise that the local stations are already paying for but only using an hour or two per day. Now they're aggregating all the idle capacity and channeling it (pun intended) toward something that has potential to produce a separate incremental revenue stream.

Personally, I have about as much time for weather news as I do the rest of the local news. I think my aversion to weather stems from 5 1/2 years of living in London (nearly a decade, I say) where the order of the day, every day, was slow-mo precipitation. As a result, I'm a fatalist about weather -- I either deal with it or I stay home out of the elements.

I remember when I first encountered the Weather Channel and thinking it was the stupidest idea I'd heard of -- so, of course, it's extremely popular.

Anyway, as much as I am anti-KSDK, I tip my hat to them on WeatherPlus, because I think it is probably a winner (reverse psychology?). Seriously, the fact that Charter agreed to carry this, when the overall stance of cable companies is to be non-cooperative on subchannels, at least suggests that it's something they think viewers will respond to. And I suspect that's not just something they're doing to be good guys -- presumably they will at some point participate in the revenue aspect of it, either on the advertising side or the ability to charge more for carriage.

To be my own devil's advocate, Charter has (or is supposed to) pick up "The Tube," which seems completely pointless, no matter how you look at it.


Where in London? I was at RAF Bentwaters for a while.

Thanks for your considerate replies. I also think it will be at least a gen before they attempt another format change for broadcast.

Congrats to ABC for producing the CMA in HD. :) Hopefully the trend will catch on!
Most of the other awards shows, thus far, have been in SD.
IIRC, last season, the Grammys was the sole HD awards production.

Funny, I haven't heard or watched anything "Country" since I lived in your neck of the woods. Farmington is a great town. Do they still do Country Days?

Good that they did it in HD, and you're correct. I hope the others follow suit.

Scott

Funny, I haven't heard or watched anything "Country" since I lived in your neck of the woods. Farmington is a great town. Do they still do Country Days?

Good that they did it in HD, and you're correct. I hope the others follow suit.

Scott
We live south of town....Winchester...you probably know where it is. I'm not a big fan of CM, but enough to endure listening to it. My wife loves it, so I'm used to the listen when she drives. Which brings up this point...when/where is it written the driver gets to choose the music? :p
ABC's production was well worth it.

If they still do Country Days, I wouldn't know...nor would I go. I'm a city-boy from LA living in the country...I don't fit in well with mainstream Farmington.

I really enjoy the Emmys and Oscars, which probably stems from having the opportunity to once attend each. I hope they're in HD this season. AIdol did HD from the Kennedy Theatre, so we know it's doable.

Where in London? I was at RAF Bentwaters for a while.

Thanks for your considerate replies. I also think it will be at least a gen before they attempt another format change for broadcast.My first stay in London, from 1981 to 1986, I started out in Holland Park, and then spent a few years living in Queensway. My boss actually moved to London and liked my Queensway flat so much, he transferred me to Hong Kong and took over my lease -- definitely a fair trade. ;)

My second stint there, I lived just on the south side of Blackfriar's Bridge, right on the South Bank.

Not sure where Bentwaters is. I traveled around the country a fair bit on weekends, but didn't have my own car, so it was mostly tagging along with friends on day trips.

St. Louis HDTV Viewer Survey Now Open for Your Participation

Over the past month, I've been working on and off to pull together an online survey that addresses several aspects of the the HDTV viewing experience in St. Louis. That survey is now complete and open to the public, so I'd like to invite everyone here to participate.

The survey can be found at: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?u=770152748968

Several of the points below are covered at the survey site home page, but here's some additional background:

* The survey will require around 20 to 30 minutes of your time to complete. I've tried to keep everything as brief as possible, but I recognize that brevity is not a core competency for me (just look at this note). But I really tried to rein it in -- as an example, I have designed the survey so that several sections are optional, and this should allow the survey to be completed within roughly half the estimated time for someone in a hurry who just wants to hit the highlights.

Also, I have confined the survey primarily to the delivery of digital television signals and HD programming content. While I would have loved to have addressed HDTV displays in detail, it would have made the survey far too long. Maybe that's a topic for another survey on another day.

* There are a number of questions in the survey where the results will be particularly useful to current and future visitors to the St. Louis discussion here at AVS.

For instance, the survey will produce customer satisfaction ratings for Charter, DirecTV and DISH Network services in a number of key areas relating to HD content, picture quality, sound quality, value for money, etc. This should provide some concrete data that can be passed along when someone comes here and posts a query like, "I just got a new HDTV and I'm thinking of subscribing to XYZ service. How happy are you guys with XYZ?"

Likewise, the survey should provide some interesting information about OTA reception, particularly since these replies can be filtered and broken down by local geographic area.

Of course, there's the big, hairy "hot button" issue -- "flipping the switch," but that's not anything like the main focus. For example, one of the (more time-consuming) optional sections allows you to rate the HD channels you receive for content, picture quality and sound quality. I'm aiming for the big picture, with details.

* Once you've taken the survey, if you think it's worthwhile, I'd like to ask you to pass the URL for the survey to any friends, acquaintances, or family members you know who might be interested in participating. FWIW, I'm going to be doing a mass maling to my customers and prospects in order to increase the survey participation.

Because of the need to pass along a rather cryptic URL (see above), this is probably only going to work via eMail. If you decide to do that, I'd ask that you also ask each person you contact to do the same and pass the URL along to anyone they know who might be interested in participating. And so on...

Obviously, the more people who respond, and particularly the more non-AVS participants/lurkers contributing to the survey, the better the survey results will reflect the "typical" HDTV viewer in St. Louis. By the way, participants are asked to indicate their interest level in HDTV, so this will provide another option for slicing/dicing any aspect of the results.

* You can only take the survey once. The way the survey has been designed, you can begin it, leave the survey website before completion and return later at the point where you left off. If you leave without finishing, you can also return to change your answers. But once you complete the survey, you are done and will not be able to return to the survey site.

Unfortunately, I can't guarantee that the leave/return functionality will work with all browsers and computer configurations. So, it's best to hold off on taking the survey until you know you're going to have 30 minutes spare, without interruption. The survey home page talks about this, but if you do pass the survey URL onto others, it would be good to make this same point clear, as there should be no need to rush through this.

The survey will be open and available for replies until December 1, 2006 at 3 p.m. CST.

* A comprehensive summary of the survey results will be published here on this thread, sometime in mid-December. All replies to the survey will remain anonymous, though I can be contacted by eMail if anyone wants to provide specific, "on the record" comments about specific questions, or the survey in general.

Results of the survey will NOT be sold to any third party. If the survey participation is high enough to warrant it, a press release might be issued, as I have a buddy who may be able to grease those skids.

* If there's a reasonably positive response to this edition of the survey, I'd like to conduct this annually around this time of year.

Let me know if anyone has any comments, suggestions or issues.

I finished Doug's survey when he first posted it here some time ago. I wanted to comment on how well thought out it was. I'd urge everyone who can to participate. It's an organized, well thought out survey that has the potential to yield some very useful information. It would be great if our providers would use such a tool to let them know better what their viewers want.

We live south of town....Winchester...you probably know where it is. I'm not a big fan of CM, but enough to endure listening to it. My wife loves it, so I'm used to the listen when she drives. Which brings up this point...when/where is it written the driver gets to choose the music? :p
ABC's production was well worth it.

If they still do Country Days, I wouldn't know...nor would I go. I'm a city-boy from LA living in the country...I don't fit in well with mainstream Farmington.

I really enjoy the Emmys and Oscars, which probably stems from having the opportunity to once attend each. I hope they're in HD this season. AIdol did HD from the Kennedy Theatre, so we know it's doable.

Yes, I know Winchester, and it's a very nice area. I too was a city boy from San Diego when I landed in Farmington. Talk about culture shock :eek: Anyway, I really liked Farmington once I got used to the small town feel. Everyone down there listens to J98 country. We left Farmington in '98 after my inlaws store closed.
Stop letting her drive Ken!

Scott

John,

On WeatherPlus, you're right that there isn't any data out there. But I don't think ratings would really matter at this point if they were available, as broadcasters are just starting to test the sort of programming that they send out over potential subchannels.

I doubt that the cost to produce W+ is in any way significant, as it's really just leveraging costs, equipment, expertise that the local stations are already paying for but only using an hour or two per day. Now they're aggregating all the idle capacity and channeling it (pun intended) toward something that has potential to produce a separate incremental revenue stream.

Personally, I have about as much time for weather news as I do the rest of the local news. I think my aversion to weather stems from 5 1/2 years of living in London (nearly a decade, I say) where the order of the day, every day, was slow-mo precipitation. As a result, I'm a fatalist about weather -- I either deal with it or I stay home out of the elements.

I remember when I first encountered the Weather Channel and thinking it was the stupidest idea I'd heard of -- so, of course, it's extremely popular.

Anyway, as much as I am anti-KSDK, I tip my hat to them on WeatherPlus, because I think it is probably a winner (reverse psychology?). Seriously, the fact that Charter agreed to carry this, when the overall stance of cable companies is to be non-cooperative on subchannels, at least suggests that it's something they think viewers will respond to. And I suspect that's not just something they're doing to be good guys -- presumably they will at some point participate in the revenue aspect of it, either on the advertising side or the ability to charge more for carriage.

To be my own devil's advocate, Charter has (or is supposed to) pick up "The Tube," which seems completely pointless, no matter how you look at it.

Charter's carried The Tube for awhile now.

Stupid channel.

Does anyone else out there experience extreme delay when switching channels using Charters HD box. I don't know if it is because of my tv or the guide upgrade.

Any info would be appreciated.
I am on Charter HD in Alton and have had no problems.

Stop letting her drive Ken!
Scott
Then, I'd have to! If you haven't been back since 98...well, Farmington now has 3 exits off of 67. It's not exactly boom-town...OK, it's really still hicksville+, but you know it's at least an hours drive to virtually anything, and that would be just too much like work!

BTW, wife says they still have Country Days....WhooHoo!


On a topic note, I've been switching between 4.1 and 4.2....from what I've seen, KMOV seems to be doing a pretty good job of integrating the two. Not saying I won't be sorry to see it go tomorrow, but they seem to have practiced a bit, and are following a script, rather than just going into it blindly. Not that any of our other locals would ever do that.

Does anyone else out there experience extreme delay when switching channels using Charters HD box. I don't know if it is because of my tv or the guide upgrade.

Yes. I experience the same delay, but only when changing channels fairly quickly. If I change slow enough, the delay doesn't occur. This delay definitely started with the guide upgrade. I guess the increased demands of the new guide has caused the delay. Somewhat par for the course!

Is there any hope Charter will ever add ABCHD? I guess when analog is shut-off they'll have no choice then.

Andrew

Funny, I haven't heard or watched anything "Country" since I lived in your neck of the woods. Farmington is a great town. Do they still do Country Days?

Good that they did it in HD, and you're correct. I hope the others follow suit.

Scott

Scott,

Yes they still do Country Days in Farmington. They have been doing it for a number of years. I used to take my son to it when he was younger but now that he is HS he does not like to go anymore.

My wife enjoys going to the craft fair/booths that are always at Country Days.

BTW: I also live in Farmington. :)

Not that it has much to do with the current topic, but I have to say I really enjoy watching House tonight in HD on D* 88 and not having to be bothered with election updates that were only 1 freakin' % reporting. It's bad enough that I don't think any of the local stations can overlay the HD signal and they have to revert to SD, but is 1% voting information even worth reporting?

*soapbox off

After seeing that my FusionHDTV recording of Standoff tonight was entirely in SD so those 1% reporting updates could crawl across the screen, I wish my Fusion card could get channel 88.

Scott, my wife enjoys going to the craft fair/booths that are always at Country Days.
BTW: I also live in Farmington. :)
Do you live in town, mjm?

From another part of the Forum, here's interesting news about the combo HD DVD/Blu-ray player many of us have been waiting for:

Combo HD DVD/Blu-ray players to arrive in 2007. (http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=5S3A0OQQCZ43SQSNDLSCKHA?article ID=193501688)

I don't know what this means exactly for the future of the respective competitors, but if it means we get more quality HD content it can only be good.

How long has KMOV had a 4.2 station? Tonight I rescanned my OTA signal and low and behold a 4.2. It was full of election coverage so maybe it is a temp thing.

For you Firefox users, again. I really enjoy using Firefox 2. The tabbed interface and the built in spell checker are especially useful. However, I'm going blind from the white flash refreshes I get on the AVS Forum. My preferred choice for AVS background is black, but when I go into a page or scroll, I get this almost full-screen white flash sometimes 2 or 3 times a page. Is this normal?

Pringals,

Scroll back over the past 2 or 3 pages -- plenty of info and discussion on 4.2...

I finished Doug's survey when he first posted it here some time ago. I wanted to comment on how well thought out it was. I'd urge everyone who can to participate. It's an organized, well thought out survey that has the potential to yield some very useful information. It would be great if our providers would use such a tool to let them know better what their viewers want.Joe,

Thanks for the positive feedback and recommendation.

DISH Network Posts Strong 3Q Results

The following excerpt is from today's SkyREPORT newsletter:
____________________________________________________________ _____

EchoStar Communications' DISH Network added 295,000 subscribers during the three-month period ending in September - a number significantly above the company's 195,000 net additions recorded during the second quarter of this year. In addition, DISH reported total revenue of $2.47 billion for the period - a 16 percent increase compared to $2.13 billion for 3Q05.

The company's gross adds (958,000) represents the highest mark DISH has ever seen over any quarter in its history, soundly outperforming analyst estimations across the board. Also, the cost to acquire each customer (SAC) was slightly down from $697 to $688.

One dark spot on an otherwise strong quarter, said Bernstein Research's Craig Moffett, was the rise in monthly churn which increased to 1.76 percent. Moffett said the number was "troubling" because it directly increases total acquisition spending levels without contributing to growth or value creation. "Overall results are somewhat better than expectations," the analyst said. And the firm "remain(s) skeptical about EchoStar (being) an imminent acquisition candidate for AT&T or a merger candidate with DIRECTV."
____________________________________________________________ _____

To read the entire story, go to www.skyreport.com.

For you Firefox users, again. I really enjoy using Firefox 2. The tabbed interface and the built in spell checker are especially useful. However, I'm going blind from the white flash refreshes I get on the AVS Forum. My preferred choice for AVS background is black, but when I go into a page or scroll, I get this almost full-screen white flash sometimes 2 or 3 times a page. Is this normal?Joe, I'm sticking with Firefox 1.5 for now, but I've never seen anything like what you're describing, and the video system on my PC is pretty pedestrian and I know you're using something well more advanced.

FWIW, I'm also using a few 1.5 extensions that may or may not be changing the normal behavior on Firefox -- Tab Mix Plus, eReader (great for increasing font size on web pages that have tiny type) and termBlaster. I also use Smiley Xtra and ForecastFox, but I doubt either of those have any effect on normal display behavior.