St. Louis, MO - HDTV *OLD* [Text View] - Page 7

Crash_Corrigan

04-30-04, 03:52 PM

I don't currently have cable TV, so I'm not certain of which local HD channels Charter is offering. But, I'm pretty sure they don't yet offer all our local channels in HD.

You'll be able to get the analog versions of all our local channels on either Charter Cable or Directv.

You'll only get some of the HD versions of our local channels on Charter using their HD cable box. To get any of the local HD channels that Charter currently isn't offering, you'll have to buy a separate OTA HD tuner and hook it up to an antenna. If your TV has more than one input for HD, this shouldn't be a problem, except for the fact that you'll have to switch from one input to the other input (with your TVs remote) when you want to change from watching Charter channels to watching on the the local HD channels Charter doesn't carry on the HD OTA STB.

You won't get any of our local HD channels from Directv via the Directv satellite, but the Directv STB includes an OTA HD tuner which you can connect to a UHF antenna and with any luck pull in all our local HD channels.

Using an antenna to get local HD channels is not that hard, but your ability to tune in those channels depends on your local surroundings trees, hills, tall buildings and your proximity to the transmission towers.

Our local channels are all broadcasting on both analog and digital channels right now. KSDK analog channel is Channel 5 and it's digital/HD channel is Channel 5-1. KMOV has its analog Channel 4 and its digital/HD Channel 4-1. KTVI has its analog Channel 2 and its digital Channel 2-1 (Fox isn't currently broadcasting anything in HD until the Fall but it does broadcast in widescreen ED). KETC has its analog Channel 9 and three digital channels, 9-1 it's HD channel, 9-2 its children's subchannel and 9-3 its educational channel. KPLR has its analog Channel 11 and its digital/HD Channel 11-1. KDNL has its analog Channel 30 and its digital/HD Channel 30-1. We also have the UPN affiliate...I forget its call letters in analog on channel 46 and in digital on 46-1.

Saluki

04-30-04, 04:11 PM

Originally posted by Crash_Corrigan
To get any of the local HD channels that Charter currently isn't offering, you'll have to buy a separate OTA HD tuner and hook it up to an antenna. If your TV has more than one input for HD, this shouldn't be a problem, except for the fact that you'll have to switch from one input to the other input (with your TVs remote) when you want to change from watching Charter channels to watching on the the local HD channels Charter doesn't carry on the HD OTA STB.

Is this the way most Charterites are set-up then - Charter box + antenna + OTA tuner box? Sounds like a bit of a pain.

Crash_Corrigan

04-30-04, 04:30 PM

My hunch is that most folks with Charter aren't bothering with OTA HD for the missing HD locals, unless their TV has a built-in OTA HD tuner, but I could be wrong.

I cancelled my cable tv service when TCI Cable took over from Continental Cable back in 1996 and I've been happy with Directv every since. I've been getting HD from Directv and an OTA antenna with a Hughes E86 STB for the last 1-1/2 years. I hope to have a Directv HD Tivo before the end of the year if its price comes down from $999.

I'm sure some folks with Charter Cable can tell you what they're doing to get the HD channels missing from Charter's lineup.

abcward

04-30-04, 05:09 PM

Charter HD subscriber here -

I for one use the HD channels that Charter has given us, and currently just miss out on the remaining HD channels like ABC, WB [who cares] and Discovery. I do watch ABC and Discovery but currently only the SD version.

I am guessing that eventually Charter will have those channels as well, then I can have the majority of the HD content and do not have to fiddle with antennas. Flip through this monthly thread- there are a ton of messages dealing with antenna issues with HD local channels. I don't want another hassle like that.

FYI - I was a happy dish subscriber before I moved, so I am NOT knocking dish in any way, rather I am describing why some people are Charter HD subscribers, like myself.

DroptheRemote

04-30-04, 05:31 PM

Saluki,

The lack of a complete HD channel line-up is the major outstanding issue with Charter's HD service. Once they're able to offer a complete package of all the local digital/HD stations in the St. Louis market cable will have a major competitive edge over satellite; until then, however, it's really an incomplete (and to my mind, overpriced) service that really creates more problems than it solves.

It's nonsense that if you want to have cable HD that you also have to have an additional receiver and antenna to view those HD channels missing from Charter's line-up. This creates a financial burden because you have to buy the OTA receiver, but there's also the hassle of connecting additional equipment, testing to see if an indoor antenna will work (or mounting an attic or rooftop if not), and then the hassle of switching back and forth between the different TV inputs to see all the HD channels.

If you have a family, I'm sure your wife and kids will really love this additional mental exercise, when all they really want to do is watch television. Every family loves this... :rolleyes:

If you're sure you want to go with cable, you're going to have to deal with this or do without the missing channels. But if you're seriously considering getting an OTA receiver to use in conjunction with cable until Charter delivers all the HD locals, then you really should take a step back and consider whether satellite might actually make more long-term sense.

After all, if you're seriously considering spending $300 or $400 for an OTA-only receiver, you could buy an HD satellite receiver that also includes the OTA receiver for only a $100 or so more. And if you end up needing a rooftop or attic antenna, you might as well run cabling for satellite at the same time.

To be fair, the cable v satellite equation gets more complicated when you consider other non-HD televisions in your home and the additional standard-definition satellite receivers (and cabling) each of those televisions would require.

However, there are regularly deals from DISH and DirecTV that address multi-room needs of new customers, and some of those packages have begun to include HD options that are very attractive. Of course, these "special deals" require a contractual commitment (usually 1 year), but as they're effectively giving you the receivers at below cost, it's not an unreasonable requirement (despite what Dan Ackroyd might tell you).

There's no doubt that all of this is a PITA, and I appreciate that the various explanations of the situation may only add to your confusion. But I think it's important that you consider the big picture, rather than just working around the obstacles that are a result of Charter's incomplete HD product.

Saluki

04-30-04, 05:50 PM

Doug-

Great insight, thank you. I did not even think about the issue of needing additional satellite boxes for multiple tv's when comparing cable to satellite in my mind. My kids have cable in the basement & that works out well.

I really think cable is the way to go for me with the hope that Charter will be adding high-def stations regularly. I will probably decide to bypass the antenna also (but will be somewhat bummed out on Monday nights during football season).

What kind of picture quality can I expect on a Samsung 46" DLP on ABC, etc. compared to my current analog cable reception on a 35" Mits, generally speaking?

DroptheRemote

04-30-04, 06:39 PM

Originally posted by Saluki

What kind of picture quality can I expect on a Samsung 46" DLP on ABC, etc. compared to my current analog cable reception on a 35" Mits, generally speaking?
Very difficult to say, but it's not a recipe for image quality:

* The NTSC video standard was designed when the upper limit of CRT manufacturing capability was a 19-inch screen. While NTSC was over-engineered for the future, it was never intended to work well with really large displays.

* Even with a high-quality NTSC signal (think LaserDisc), picture quality begins to seriously nosedive, regardless of display technology, at around 32 inches;

* Neither cable nor satellite provide a high-quality NTSC signal -- overcompression is the enemy of both products;

* The fact that your Samsung will "scale" incoming 480i video to 720p compensates for some degree of deterioriation caused by the larger size, but there's nothing even the highest-quality, $10,000 single-purpose scaler can do to replace the missing picture information caused by overcompressed cable and satellite feeds.

Saluki, it ultimately comes down to "garbage in, garbage out."

That's why I personally prefer to watch standard-definition cable or satellite on a smaller screen. When I do watch standard-def satellite channels via my HDTV (and HD STB), it's usually about being more comfortable watching from my overstuffed leather sofa.

As another example of practicing what I preach: my ReplayTV is connected to a 27-inch television, rather than my 56-inch widescreen.

It looks like crap on the bigger screen, so why fight it?

redwine

04-30-04, 11:20 PM

Two of my coworkers who bought HD ready bigscreens about a year or so ago finally contacted Charter for the HD upgrade. Both had Charter for years but really didn't know what HD was all about. They were happy with digital cable and progressive DVDs displayed on their big screens. It wasn't until they visited me a few weeks ago that they realized what they were missing. They paid for a HD ready big screen but were not using it. This is the main problem in my opinion. The more people know what they are missing the more HD programming and channels we will get.

Charter is missing HUGE opportunity to expand its high end subscriber base. There are thousands of people just in the St. Louis area like my friends and thousands more will be buying HD ready bigscreens this year. If Charter would just spend some money and expand its HD channels I believe most people with HD sets would subscribe to Charter. The OTA and current satellite HD offerings would not have a chance.

Unfortunately I don't think Charter has a clue. They care more about PVR offerings which most people could not even figure out how to operate.

redwine

04-30-04, 11:38 PM

Does Charter require fiber optic collectors in neighborhoods that offer HD cable? Running fiber in older neighborhoods is more expensive than in the newer suburbs because of governments and density. This might explain why HD became available in newer burbs before urban areas. Just a thought.

I moved from an older house in Arnold last year (not upper middle class but fiber is cheap to install) and Charter HD is there.

abcward

04-30-04, 11:41 PM

Originally posted by redwine
Charter is missing HUGE opportunity to expand its high end subscriber base. There are thousands of people just in the St. Louis area like my friends and thousands more will be buying HD ready bigscreens this year. If Charter would just spend some money and expand its HD channels I believe most people with HD sets would subscribe to Charter. The OTA and current satellite HD offerings would not have a chance.

I honestly dont think this problem has to do with how many HD channels Charter [or anyone else] offers. I think the real issue is that most people don't realize that a big screen does NOT equal High Definition. The problem is that the general public really has no idea what HD is. And any random information they get only confuses them more. I personally have visited far too many homes of friends/family who have a large projection tv and when I ask, NONE of them have HD channels, or even understand what they are all about.

Where Charter [and Dish and DirecTV and.... ] should be blamed is for not educating people on the amazing product that HD really is. I have seen Charter's flimsy ads about HD. I'm sure they do nothing to entice regular joe schmoe's who do not understand what HD is all about.

I have a very unscientific guess that I bet there are more new HD converts based on word of mouth by people like us, than converts due to commercials by any satellite/cable provider in St. Louis. And those companies have marketing money behind them...we only have a love of HD driving us.

redwine

04-30-04, 11:52 PM

abcward,

I totally agree. My point was that Charter could own the market and expand greatly if they offered every possible channel in HD and advertised the fact. Cable is currently the simplest way to upgrade to HD. They would be the first choice for would-be and current bigscreen owners who did not know what they were missing. This would be a large market in my opinion.

DroptheRemote

05-01-04, 12:59 AM

I'm sort of thinking out loud here, but its seems to me that a big part of the problem starts with the abject quality of what passes for recruitment and training at the companies involved in the sale of HDTV hardware or services.

These are effectively "knowledge businesses" but you wouldn't know that from talking with the sales staff at Best Buy or getting on the phone with customer support staff at Charter.

It's obvious these companies are driven by policy and process, rather than training people to think. It's all rote learning of rehearsed scripts and decision trees. There's lots of information churning through these companies but very little knowledge or individual ability (or maybe willingness) to connect the dots together.

Charter had more than a year to get ready for the HD rollout in St. Louis and still 9 months after launch HD receivers are being set up in customer homes with S-Video cables. Granted, this is more complicated than connecting a coax cable onto a RF socket, but I really think it's a long, long way from being "big science."

I think that when the people running these companies look at their own staff they just conclude that if their employees don't get it, there's no point in trying to educate their customers. But their biggest problem isn't a lack of sophistication among customers, it's an appalling lack of competence within their own organizations.

StLouG

05-01-04, 01:17 AM

I have been coming to this site since Charter started to offer HD services not as long as some of you. Every month we go through the same rant and complaints about Charter and they do not care! As long as we continue to pay for their services they don't care. I do agree that the general public has very little knowledge about HD service and products and from experience neither do the CSR's. That is why I come to this forum to live and learn. That is my two cents worth. PEACE OUT!

jedi35

05-01-04, 02:44 AM

Saluki,

It seems to me that no one has clearly answered ALL of your questions. You were wondering about what other digital signals you would get with the Charter HD service, along with the regular analog signals, right? I'll try to lay it out for you. Currently, Charter's HD service offers 3 of our locals in digital format(2, 4, and 5), as well as HDNet, HDNet Movies, ESPNHD, and you can pay to add HBO-HD and/or SHO-HD if you don't already subscribe to them. After that, you are left with the very same cable packages that anyone can get in terms of digital cable service(which is still standard definition analog on your tv screen), or regular analog cable. Does that cover it?

Saluki

05-01-04, 11:26 AM

Originally posted by jedi35
Saluki,

It seems to me that no one has clearly answered ALL of your questions. You were wondering about what other digital signals you would get with the Charter HD service, along with the regular analog signals, right? I'll try to lay it out for you. Currently, Charter's HD service offers 3 of our locals in digital format(2, 4, and 5), as well as HDNet, HDNet Movies, ESPNHD, and you can pay to add HBO-HD and/or SHO-HD if you don't already subscribe to them. After that, you are left with the very same cable packages that anyone can get in terms of digital cable service(which is still standard definition analog on your tv screen), or regular analog cable. Does that cover it?

jedi-

Thanks greatly but I am still a little confused on digital cable vs. standard cable. Doesn't digital cable offer an improved PQ over standard cable?

Mr_Bester

05-01-04, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by Saluki
jedi-

Thanks greatly but I am still a little confused on digital cable vs. standard cable. Doesn't digital cable offer an improved PQ over standard cable?
Yes, there isn't any snow on the digital cable channels. Ubfortunately, most of the cable channels are analog. On charter channels up to 99 are analog(sci fi, espn sd, espn2, usa, tnt, food, golf, fox sports, etc) the only channels digital are the extra kids channels, extra discovery h&l and the like and all of the movie channels. My list isn't comprehensive, but if charter has a channel list on their website, you can figure it out from there.
Dug

abcward

05-01-04, 11:55 AM

Originally posted by Mr_Bester
Yes, there isn't any snow on the digital cable channels. Ubfortunately, most of the cable channels are analog. On charter channels up to 99 are analog(sci fi, espn sd, espn2, usa, tnt, food, golf, fox sports, etc) the only channels digital are the extra kids channels, extra discovery h&l and the like and all of the movie channels. My list isn't comprehensive, but if charter has a channel list on their website, you can figure it out from there.
Dug

I'm curious how you got that information - is there some source/website that you could share with us? Thanks!

Saluki

05-01-04, 12:06 PM

Originally posted by Mr_Bester
Yes, there isn't any snow on the digital cable channels. Ubfortunately, most of the cable channels are analog. On charter channels up to 99 are analog(sci fi, espn sd, espn2, usa, tnt, food, golf, fox sports, etc) the only channels digital are the extra kids channels, extra discovery h&l and the like and all of the movie channels. My list isn't comprehensive, but if charter has a channel list on their website, you can figure it out from there.
Dug

Okay, this is all starting to make sense now.

Is it likely that the cable channels that are currently analog will stay that way until hopefully they move to high-def? Or will some of the analog channels be moved into the digital cable mode first? Or both?

DroptheRemote

05-01-04, 12:38 PM

The answer to this question is a definitive "it depends."

It really comes down to the amount of analog compression that's been applied to analog cable channels and the amount of digital compression that's been applied to digital cable channels.

Not only does it vary between analog and digital cable varieties, but there can also be differences between different digital channels.

You should also remember that the lower channels (below 100?) are analog-only on both systems. I haven't actually done any testing of analog vs digital cable with Charter, but I have done this in other markets with the AT&T cable service, and I found that the analog channels looked better when they were sent directly to the TV without passing through the digital cable tuner. Digital channels seemed to look marginally better, but still were crummy-looking when blown up to 56 inches.

One other point worth mentioning on the Charter HD STB. The receiver has a user menu setting (4x3 Override) that allows you send 4x3 programs as either 480i or 480p to the display.

In your case with your Samsung DLP, you should set this for 480i and then let your television scale the image to 720p. As a rule, it's better to opt for single-event processing (in your case, 480i from the cable box scaled to to 720p in the television) rather than multiple-event processing (480i line-doubled to 480p in the cable box AND then 480p scaled to 720p in the television).

Every time a video signal undergoes additional processing, there is some level of signal loss and image degradation and you should try to minimize this as much as possible.

jedi35

05-01-04, 02:13 PM

Wow Doug,

That's a nifty(is it ok to use such a dorky word??) way of explaining things for Saluki. Very helpful indeed. In fact, I'm going to try your idea of hooking up analog cable directly to my tv. With a decent cable splitter, do you think there will be any loss of quality of the signal going into the hd box?

I think that digital cable attempts to offer us the same picture quality as what one can get on an SD satellite system. However, I still think that satellite quality holds the edge over digital cable. Digital cable does succeed, however, in offering us a greater variety of channels.

yurkope

05-01-04, 02:36 PM

Does anyone else have a problem with CBS4 right now? I do not have a HD signal from them - about 1:30 PM.

DroptheRemote

05-01-04, 02:42 PM

Jedi,

I don't think there's risk of major signal loss in running through a good-quality cable splitter. But the best bet is to try it and see.

I agree that digital cable is closer to satellite in image quality, but I think the majority of the gap has been closed as a result of satellite quality going downhill rather than digital cable being a huge improvement over analog cable.

I know I sound like I'm ranting sometimes, but in fact I do understand that cable and satellite companies are simply trying to manage their resources (bandwidth capacity) in a way that provides the best overall return on very expensive, absolutely finite resources.

A big part of the problem is the fact that cable and satellite decisions about acceptable image quality are made on the basis of the average customer, rather than the home theater or big-screen owner with a display that's two, three or even four times larger in terms of total picture area.

This is where the majority of the issues arise for people like you and me when we're not happy with the image quality we're getting. And that's why I try to watch SD on a smaller sets when possible.

I expect that standard-definition cable and satellite services will continue quite a while longer after broadcast NTSC is shut down. It'll be interesting to see if cable and satellite companies adapt their compression practices as the average consumer television gets progressively larger (as it has been for nearly a decade).

My guess is that it won't change much, if at all. I think the more likely scenario is that at some point cable and satellite will begin throwing overboard marginal SD channels in order to add more HD as it becomes more and more mainstream.

redwine

05-01-04, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by DroptheRemote
......
This is where the majority of the issues arise for people like you and me when we're not happy with the image quality we're getting. And that's why I try to watch SD on a smaller sets when possible.

.....

When I turn on the set I always check the HD channels first. If nothing good is on I check digital premium. Next I check some "favorites" on the analog side (Discovery, HGTV, etc.). There has to be something REALLY interesting on these channels for me to stomach the bad picture quality.

I used to watch PBS about 1/3 of the time. I miss it. Charter is my problem. I would rather watch a mediocre program on HD than a good one on analog SD.

Saluki

05-01-04, 03:49 PM

Originally posted by redwine
When I turn on the set I always check the HD channels first. If nothing good is on I check digital premium. Next I check some "favorites" on the analog side (Discovery, HGTV, etc.). There has to be something REALLY interesting on these channels for me to stomach the bad picture quality.

I used to watch PBS about 1/3 of the time. I miss it. Charter is my problem. I would rather watch a mediocre program on HD than a good one on analog SD.

redwine-

As one who is considering the HDTV plunge soon, what I'm trying to get a realistic handle on is if the analog cable "bad picture quality" is bad because you are now spoiled by high-def or if it is bad compared to watching on a standard non-HDTV set, or both.

Also wondering what the local stores typically use for their input signal (CC, BB, Ultimate Electronics, etc.). I guess this would be a good way for me to get some idea if any of them use Charter .

redwine

05-01-04, 04:02 PM

Saluki,

I am spoiled on HD quality. The analog signal from Charter is fine on the smaller sets in my bedroom and my kids rooms. If you get a large HD set you will know what I mean. If you get a smaller HD set you will probably have the same picture quality on SD that you are used to.

Try not to judge your decision too much on what you see at the local stores. The sets are usually not calibrated too well. I spent about a month fiddling with all the settings before I was satisfied. I'm not sure of the feeds in the stores but I believe it is different depending on the store. I did most of my research on-line and with word of mouth and bought my set without looking too much at the different displays in the store. I would never have made a decision if I judged it by the demo models.

aspec2

05-01-04, 05:58 PM

Anyone getting sound from English Turn. You can hear the blimp and the golf shots but no anouncers.

Back to THE DERBY.

Walt

Quort

05-02-04, 01:00 PM

Hi everyone, first time poster, but I've been lurking for many months just doing research.

From reading reviews/opinions in other threads, I've yet to find one particular OTA box that just jumps out as the clear choice for me (cost not being a factor). I'm expecting a lot of issues with receiving a decent signal (Troy MO area). I like the idea of scaling all inputs (like the T165 and MDR-200 claim) but being able to display a marginal signal is of more importance to me.

What's the OTA receiver of choice among those who read the STL thread? I"m interested in OTA-only boxes, not DirectTV, Dish, or any other types.

Thanks

DroptheRemote

05-02-04, 01:37 PM

Quort,

By my calculations, you're roughly 50 miles from the main cluster of St. Louis television transmission towers. In analog terms that's definitely marginal, but I think that from a digital perspective that your chances of getting usable signals would be pretty good.

Remember, there's not as great an element of signal degradation based on distance as there was with analog signals. In digital television the way this is sometimes explained is the "cliff effect." As distance from the tower increases, you continue to receive the signal the same as if you were very close to the transmitter, and then at some point you fall off the "cliff" and have no usuable signal.

In practice, it's not quite that clear-cut, and what you find is that as distance increases the cliff point may shift according to atmospheric conditions or even seasonal issues, such as foilage interfering with the signals at various points on the calendar.

You don't say anything about what sort of antenna you plan to use, and frankly, I think this is probably the more important issue for your location.

Because you're focused on optimizing the ability to receiver to deal with distant signals, I suspect that you'd prefer an indoor antenna. If so, I think regardless of the receiver, that's probably the most hit-and-miss approach, though definitely one worth attempting.

I don't believe that there's been much discussion here about one box being better than another in terms of dealing with distant signals, so it might also be worth posting your question on the OTA forum here as a separate question. I'd also encourage you to try different search terms on the overall OTA forum to see if there have been previous discussions on this aspect of STB performance.

In general, I think newer receivers perform better than older STBs, but appreciate that I'm definitely making a generalization here, though I'd be surprised to find evidence that I'm wildly wrong on that score.

Also, remember that signal strength meters in the various receivers are all different. A 50 strength on one may not be the same as 50 on another brand. In many cases, these aren't signal strength meters in the conventional sense, but rather are a calculated value based on data error rates.

Anyway, I hope that helps some and glad to have you here.

Quort

05-02-04, 02:56 PM

Doug,

Thanks for the quick reply. As far as antenna choice, I've a CM4228 which will be mounted on a chimney mount. Actually I"m leaning toward either the Sylvania 6900DTD or the Motorola HDT100, but I am still looking.

wmschultz

05-02-04, 02:58 PM

Here it is Sunday again and I can't get a decent signal on KTVI.

I called the number I was given, but the guy I need to talk to is
supposedly at the transmitter. The guy I talked to is going to call
and see if he is still there and if they are still doing work.

Is anyone else having a lower than normal signal?

Bill

jedi35

05-02-04, 03:06 PM

Saluki,

Be aware that retail electronics stores usually have distribution networks that feed lots of tvs with the same signal. This network quite often uses only rca composite video cables, or worse yet, a standard 75 ohm cables. Yuck!! So, the picture quality may greatly in the store, and will probably be a bit better when you get it home and feed it with better quality s-video or component cables(if you go hd). This still, however, will not magically fix what's wrong with a bad analog cable picture. In the matter about being spoiled while watching hd signals, I think that just watching SD satellite makes it hard to take analog cable. I'm hooked up with just about everything here at my house. Charter cable (analog, digital, hd, high speed internet), Directv satellite SD, Voom hd satellite service, OTA digital channels through Voom and a Samsung T165 tuner/scaler, and a host of other home theater equipment feeding a Pioneer 53" hd monitor. Of all this, the bottom of the hill is analog cable. I can't stand to watch it, and this happened way before I got hd at home. However I should mention that there was one product that raised the quality of analog cable up to SD satellite level, and beyond on some channels. The MIT MDR-200 OTA hd tuner/scaler, which has inputs for plugging in your SD sources and it upconverts them to 480p, 720p or 1080i. Analog cable looked beautiful and film-like, if you can believe it. In fact, it scaled even better than my Samsung T165 tuner, but the MDR has software issues that the manufacturer seems unwilling to address, other than just sending out a new unit(which also developed the same issues in my case). I know there are members of this forum that own the MIT unit and haven't had problems, but I've had 2, so the game is over for me. And I'm sure that you are not excited at the prospect of buying yet another hd component, but if you wind up buying an OTA tuner, try to get something that allows you to plug in SD eq. and upconvert them like the T165.

wmschultz

05-02-04, 03:10 PM

I just called KTVI again. Yeah, they were doing maintenance earlier but they are already done and gone...

It is strange you are getting an 80% signal on Saturday and then nothing on Sunday.

No....Really???

If anyone wants to save me some money and buy my old antenna..180 inch Radio Shack antenna, I am buying a new antenna from antennasdirect.com. I bought the 8DXB and should be getting it tomorrow....YEAH.. I am going to mount it about 12 feet higher than my current antenna and hopefully everything will be right with the world.

I am supposed to call FOX2 back tomorrow.

jedi35

05-02-04, 03:22 PM

Quort,

Welcome, and thanks for "coming out of the closet". See my earlier post about OTA tuners. I'm sorry to say it, but stay away from the MIT MDR-200 tuner, even though it probably had the most sensitive tuner, and certainly the best scaler I've owned.

In other news, I taped Matrix Reloaded last night off Charter cable hd(HBO) onto my JVC 30 d-vhs. I had to use 2 tapes, as the movie is longer than 2 hours, but I just happened to have 2 JVCs on hand. The second one is a unit that I'm checking out for a friend of mine, just making sure that it works properly. I happened to have an extra firewire cable, so I just connected the 2 units, since they both have 2 ports, tuned the second JVC to the proper digital link channel for my Mot. 6200 cablebox and hit record. I overlapped the recording so I didn't actually miss any of the action. After all the Charter bashing, I must say that it's such a pleasure to be able to tape things in hd, and my hat's off to them. No one else has offered easy firewire recording of movies off premium channels. I'm going to hurry up and do some digital editing and consolidating of tapes before I have to return the second JVC.

wmschultz

05-02-04, 03:39 PM

Hey, master Yoda....Are you not going to complain about OAR like the rest of the avsforum members who commented on the movie last night?

wmschultz

05-02-04, 04:08 PM

Does anyone know if VOOM has firewire?

redwine

05-02-04, 08:47 PM

jedi,

You have alot of HD equipment. Do you use DVI connections? If so, what is your opinion of the quality difference?

Is it May already?

jedi35

05-03-04, 07:32 AM

wmschultz,

Voom does not have firewire, and I've read on this board that there are no plans to add firewire to the pvr-enabled box which should be released later this year. As far as I know, Charter cable's (or shall I say Motorola's)hd boxes are the only ones out there that feature firewire recording of premium hd channels.

redwine,

Yeah, I've kind of gone crazy with this hd stuff as well. When I think about it, it's clear that I'm making up for lost time. I've owned my Pioneer hd monitor and watched SD for 3 years before I saw my first hd signal at home. I didn't mention that I also own the Samsung HD931 dvd player that upconverts dvds to 720p and 1080i through the dvi output, and has Faroudja de-interlacing(dvi only). Here's the sick part of all this: I now own 4 components that have dvi ports, but my hd monitor hit the market before dvi was introduced on tvs. So the answer is, no I'm not able to comment on the quality difference between dvi, component and vga. However, I do have plans to buy another video projector(I sold mine last summer), and want to have it in time for the dvd release of the Star Wars Original Trilogy in September. Right now, I'm trying to figure out how I can get the money together for the Sharp Z12000, which has outstanding picture quality, clarity, wonderful color, and black level that kicks everything else in the butt. Oh, and it has a dvi port, which means I'll have to get a 4-way dvi source switcher.

Yes, it's May already....and Mother's Day is next Sunday!!!

BudShark

05-03-04, 09:59 AM

Die April thread... die :)

abcward

05-03-04, 10:11 AM

is there a May thread going?

John Kotches

05-03-04, 10:40 AM

Since no one else has done so, here you go :-)

The April 2004 Thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=386104)

Cheers,

John Kotches

05-03-04, 10:43 AM

St Louis Tower Maps

For anyone doing the initial install of an OTA antenna, or anyone looking to fine-tune the positioning of their existing antenna, the attached ZIP file contains two maps showing the tower location for each digital station in St. Louis.

Your Right to Erect an Antenna and/or Satellite Dish

As more and more consumers purchase high-definition displays, there's increasing interest in arranging for receipt of HD programming via an over-the-air antenna or through a satellite dish.

Unfortunately with the proliferation of cable television in the 1980s and 1990s, many communities, property developers and homeowner/condo owner associations tried to undo the visual blight of antennas (and later, satellite dishes) from their local skylines. While these laws, rules or convenants were well-intended -- after all, it would be difficult to argue for the cosmetic benefits of a yagi antenna -- these actions are not legally enforceable.

The FCC has ruled -- with only a few very narrow exceptions -- that you have the right to receive over-the-air television and radio broadcasts and as a result you have a right to erect an antenna to receive these signals. This ruling also encompasses the erection of small satellite dishes.

Even if you have previously signed a lease or homeower association convenant that requires you to forego the right to erect an antenna or satellite dishes, the FCC has ruled that these types of provisions are unenforceable.

In general, there are only a few notable exceptions to this rule:

* First, the location of the antenna or dish must be an "exclusive use" area. As a homeowner or condominium owner, this would mean any part of the property over which you have control. For renters, this would also apply to balconies or patios that are intended solely for your use. The sort of rental property area that would not be covered would be general use areas, such as common passageways or rooftop areas that are clearly intended for the shared use of all residents.

* Second, the antenna or dish cannot be erected in areas that would create a legitimate safety issue, for example one that is dangling off a balcony or placed too close to electrical wiring.

* Third, there may be restrictions if you are located in a designated historical (or prehistorical) district, in which case a permit may be required.

The other major limitation is that these devices cannot exceed 1 meter (39.37 inches) in diameter.

The burden of proof in contesting your right to mount a dish and/or antenna rests with the landlord, homeowner association, city council, etc. Strictly speaking, you do not need to seek prior permission or provide prior notice, so long as the device is to be situated in an area under your control and there is no obvious safety issue.

However, before taking on the expense and effort of such an installation, you should read and review in its entirety the following summary of the FCC ruling on consumer rights to mount over-the-air devices:

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

More Information about Antennas and DTV

The Consumer Electronics Association antenna mapping program at AntennaWeb.org can help you determine the proper antenna to use, based on your own location and the distance from the local digital broadcast towers.

http://antennaweb.org/aw/welcome.aspx

Feedback to St. Louis Stations

Is there something that you're unhappy about concerning the digital broadcasts by local St. Louis stations?

Weird-looking presentation of standard-definition programming? Multiple channel bugs cluttering up those beautiful images? Somebody at the station forgot to "flip the switch" before or during the middle of your favorite HD program?

Or better yet, maybe you'd just like to send your thanks and encouragement to your favorite local station for the effort they've made so far in providing us with more and better HD programming. The cost and effort in providing digital and HD programming is significant, and it's important for the station owners and management to know that we're watching.

Well, here's the place where you can find the online addresses where you can send your comments and feedback.

KTVI Channel 2 contact:
ktvitech@fox2ktvi.com

KMOV Channel 4 contact:
programs@kmov.com
WNichol@kmov.com

KSDK Channel 5 contact:
jheskett@ksdk.gannett.com
kcreamer@ksdk.gannett.com

KETC Channel 9 contact:
letters@ketc.org

KPLR Channel 11 contact:
whatson@wb11tv.com
technical@wb11tv.com

KDNL Channel 30 contact:
jwright@kdnl.sbgnet.com

WRBU Channel 46 contact:
[no email, no web site, no HD programming]

Thanks for this info Doug :-)

John Kotches

05-03-04, 10:44 AM

* There are two ways to receive local digital/HD broadcasts in the St. Louis area. The first, and by far simplest, is to subscribe to Charter Cable. Unfortunately, Charter doesn't currently provide all of the available St. Louis digital stations. To date, Charter is only offering KTVI-DT (FOX), KMOV-DT (CBS) and KSDK-DT (NBC).

Until Charter is able to deliver a complete line-up of local digital/HD stations (or if you've already selected satellite for your subscription television service), you'll need some sort of antenna -- either indoor, attic or roof mount.

* Forget most of what you know about receiving traditional analog television via an antenna, as digital broadcasting is for the most part a different animal.

The first and most important thing to know is that digital signals, once received, tend to be highly stable. The sort of artifacts that you may recall about pre-cable antenna reception of local stations isn't all that relevant to digital reception. For example, in the digital realm there's no visual equivalent to the analog artifacts known as "snow," or "ghosting."

And in most cases, a digital signal won't slowly fade in and out as was sometimes the case in fringe analog reception areas. For the most part, with digital broadcasts you either receive the signal and have a near-perfect picture and sound, or you won't get anything at all.

In addition, barring significant topographical or architectural obstacles between your location and the transmission towers, digital signals appear to be more robust in terms of distance they can travel without degradation. While it's the exception rather than the rule, there are instances where digital OTA signals have been received as far as 120 miles from the tower.

So, just because you may have had difficulty with OTA analog signals in the past at your location, that doesn't necessarily mean you won't be able to receive digital OTA signals.

* All of the current St. Louis digital/HD stations are currently broadcasting in the UHF spectrum. The UHF channel assignments for local stations appears below:

26 - KPLR (WB)
31 - KDNL (ABC)
35 - KSDK (NBC)
39 - KETC (PBS)
43 - KTVI (FOX)
47 - WRBU (UPN)
56 - KMOV (CBS)

Today, all St. Louis stations are "simulcasting," with the traditional analog broadcasts via one frequency and the digital/HD broadcasts through another. For example, KMOV sends its analog broadcasts out as VHF channel 4 and then simulataneously sends its digital broadcasts as UHF channel 56.

As the transition to digital broadcasting progresses, there will come a time when the analog broadcasts will be discontinued and stations will only be transmitting digitally. While this switch from analog to digital was originally scheduled to take place in 2006, it's almost certain that the analog shutdown will be deferred for at least a few years.

But when that analog shutdown does occur, it's possible that one or more local stations will decide to shift their digital broadcasts to their longtime analog channel designations. As a purely hypothetical example, after shutting down its analog broadcasts, KMOV might opt to move its digital transmission to VHF channel 4.

* While the signals for digital/HD broadcasts are made up of binary data (zeros and ones), from a viewer perspective, there's nothing special about the antenna required to receive those broadcasts. As noted above, the actual transmission takes place over the UHF spectrum. That means that if you already have an old UHF-capable antenna on your rooftop or in your attic, there's a good chance that it will receive some, and possibly all, of the available local digital broadcasts. The only way to conclusively determine if that older antenna will carry you into the digital age is to test it.

However, it is possible that in order to maximize signal integrity you might need to upgrade the cable run from an existing antenna to your distribution point(s), especially if the antenna uses the flimsy ribbon-type cable connection. If you need to replace the cable for an existing antenna, RG-6 quad-shield coax is recommended. A 1,000-foot roll of RG-6 quad coax can be purchased for around $75, though it is possible to buy smaller quantities at a higher per-foot cost.

* If you're starting from scratch and need to purchase an antenna, there is some merit in selecting a UHF-only antenna. While a combo VHF-UHF antenna would likely work in many situations, a UHF-only antenna will normally give better, more reliable results. If you do have an existing antenna and it isn't capable of pulling in all of the stations in the area, there's a good chance that swapping out for a UHF-only antenna would result in better reception.

Of course, the downside in opting for a UHF-only antenna is that if any of the local stations subsequently decide to shift their digital broadcasts to their old analog channel assignment, a VHF antenna might be required to continue receiving those stations.

* Without officially endorsing one antenna over another, here are some suggestions that should work for most viewers within a 45-mile radius of the St. Louis transmission towers.

But first, bear in mind that antenna reception is one part art and one part science. What works in one location might not work across the street due to topographical or physical obstacles in the signal path at that second location. But that sort of anomaly is rare, and antenna reception is normally achievable with some reasonable effort and determination. But it is important to understand that there are no certainties and the only way to find out what can be received with an antenna in a given location is to test one yourself or arrange for one to be installed by a proven installer.

For outdoor or attic antennae, ChannelMaster sells at least two UHF-only models that you should consider -- the CM4221 (retail $25), which is a 4-bay rated for 45 miles, and the CM4228 (retail $50), which is an 8-bay rated for 60 miles. Winegard has the Prostar 1000 model PR-4400 rated for 45 miles, and the PR-8800 rated for 60 miles. Radio Shack also sells a UHF-only antenna (catalog # 15-2160, $30 retail) that is worth considering.

As a general suggestion, avoid antennas that look appear to be working overtime to not look like an antenna. While it's true that traditional antennae are unattractive and a lot of people consider them to be eyesores to be avoided at all cost, the newer streamlined, aerodynamic antennae seem to compromise reception capability in exchange for a more friendly appearance.

For indoor antennas, there are many options here as well, but the current performance leader is the Zenith Silver Sensor (ZHDTV1), which is available at most local Best Buy stores at a cost of around $40. The excellent performance of the Silver Sensor is probably in part due to the fact that Zenith actually designed the technology responsible for the transmission of OTA digital/HD signals, known as 8VSB.

Again, there's no reliable way to predict if an indoor antenna will work in your location, short of buying one and testing it. The good news here is that most of the major retailers have reasonable return policies, so it's unlikely that you'll be out major bucks if it turns out that an indoor antenna isn't up to the job in your home.

John Kotches

05-03-04, 10:45 AM

Note: The first two followups are usually posted by Doug, but I had the time to cut/paste, so what the heck :D

Cheers,

John Kotches

05-03-04, 10:48 AM

abcward:

Ask and ye shall receive....

Here is the St. Louis May 2004 Thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=397816)

Cheers,

Bill787

05-03-04, 10:51 AM

Hi, everyone.

I thought that the big Earthquake movie on NBC last night would be in High Definition, so surprised to see fuzzy upconverted picture on channel 5's DTV signal. Maybe technical problems, but channel 5 has a history of just not throwing the switch. Does anyone have any insight?

P.S. -- I'm so spoiled by HD that it was a no-brainer to NOT watch the movie last night. If they can't be bothered to throw the switch early, they can consider me gone (known as the "5 minute" rule).

Bill (St. Charles)

DroptheRemote

05-03-04, 10:59 AM

Thanks, John.

A little slow on the trigger this month...

DroptheRemote

05-03-04, 11:01 AM

The 5-Minute Rule.

I like that and suggest we make it Law of the Land...

abcward

05-03-04, 11:35 AM

I watched yesterday's NHL playoff game on ESPN-HD. imho all major sports should be in HD. Its the only way to watch a game.

At the early part of the game the announcers made mention of the telecast being in HD. They did the whole comparison to normal screen size to widescreen and showed that they were able to show more of the ice at one time. At that time they were panned back more and could show more than 1/3rd of the ice at one time. HDNet has done that with NHL games too...much less of the cameraman just simply following the puck around.

My question is: Did anyone notice that later in the game it seemed like they abandoned that camera angle and were chasing the puck more? It seemed like they went back to a closer shot, more like normal SD broadcasts....which is subpar in my opinion.

HD is the only way to watch sports, especially NHL, but the networks need to really learn how to best utilize this technology and not fall back into habits.

Thoughts??

Bruce

oby

05-03-04, 11:55 AM

I really enjoy watching Sunday Night Baseball in HD on ESPN. The picture is glorious, and you get to see all the details of these great baseball stadiums across the country.

With the exception of Turner Classic Movies, and TV Land, I don't watch television, unless its HD (or progressive scan dvd).

So, message to Charter and ABC: If you want me to watch ABC--you need to add the HD feed. Otherwise, I won't touch it--even for Monday Night Football. I know my not watching ABC won't affect their ratings, but its just the principle of the thing. I can't go back to SD...I can't...I won't.

Saluki

05-03-04, 12:08 PM

I have been reading another thread regarding cable analog channel PQ vs. the same channel broadcast digitally via DirectTV. There were differing opinions in various parts of the country about which signal was better depending on cable company upgrades, etc.

Is it safe to say that in St. Louis County DirectTV has the PQ advantage over the same program via Charter analog? (Monitor would be 46" HDTV)

Bill787

05-03-04, 12:52 PM

Saluki-- This is a totally uncalibrated input, but I can't imagine Charter could get away with a worse PQ (picture quality) than DirectTV or their competitor Dish Network. These small dish services use a very low digital data rate for individual channels, as their policy is to cram lots of channels and let PQ suffer accordingly.

Low bit rate digital pictures lose texture (for example, a beautiful face becomes just an undifferentiated blob of flesh color), they have strange staleness artifacts (You can frequently see eyebrows frozen on screen while the rest of a face moves slightly side to side), have pixelation during fast motion, and have an annoying crinkly kind of noise whenever a picture fades in or out.

I am the victim of my own compulsions, but cannot bear to watch DirectTV or Dish Network.

Does anyone out there share my fear of Direct and Dish, who has also bought a VOOM High-Def dish? I'm really hoping the handful of Standard Def pictures included in their package are better PQ.

Bill

tcfila

05-03-04, 02:33 PM

Originally posted by Bill787
Hi, everyone.

I thought that the big Earthquake movie on NBC last night would be in High Definition, so surprised to see fuzzy upconverted picture on channel 5's DTV signal. Maybe technical problems, but channel 5 has a history of just not throwing the switch. Does anyone have any insight?

P.S. -- I'm so spoiled by HD that it was a no-brainer to NOT watch the movie last night. If they can't be bothered to throw the switch early, they can consider me gone (known as the "5 minute" rule).

Bill (St. Charles)

Bill,

I dont think it was scheduled to be in HD. That is a shame, too. It really wasn't very good last night, and the only way I'd watch it tonite was if it was in HD. It is kind of funny, but there are many shows that I never watched in SD because I didn't care for them, but will sit through them in HD.

Tim

MyHTfun

05-03-04, 03:12 PM

HD Golf on channel 4?

I tried to watch the PGA on Saturday and again on Sunday. I finally saw that Saturday was taped replays from earlier, but on Sunday I don't know if it was or not. The point is that even though the HD bug was up, the picture looked SD and there was not announcer sound track, only gallery sound. Talk about boring. I was surprised that no one had previouisly entered a post in here about the telecast. I did see a string in the HD programming section and one of those from another area of the country also mentioned no announcer sound as well.

jedi35

05-03-04, 03:48 PM

Bill,

I have Charter HD, Directv SD, and Voom HD. The Voom SD channels for the most part seem a bit better to me than SD on Directv. Quite clean However, there are a few channels on Voom that don't look too good. For instance, I watch the Tennis Channel a lot on Voom, and it's not one of the better channels, but I love the programming so much. There are maybe 4 or 5 others that look as bad, but the rest are really good in my setup. Hope this helps.

DroptheRemote

05-03-04, 03:58 PM

Headline says it all:

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=109&STORY=/www/story/05-03-2004/0002165233&EDATE=

abcward

05-03-04, 04:01 PM

Can any Voom subscribers give us some information on how much they are paying per month for this service?

Saluki

05-03-04, 04:04 PM

jedi-

Can you please compare Charter analog channels vs. D* picture quality (ESPN, TNT, etc.). I know that D* channels are compressed digital signals but I have read differing reports across the country about which signal is better in various cable markets.

Cam1

05-03-04, 04:34 PM

Is anyone else still experiencing problems with ABC's OTA feed. Mine has become unwatchable. I am experiencing a stuttering effect. I have the TS-360 so I don't really trust my signal strength meter. Is this a network feed issue or do I need to look at my equipment.

BTW I am in the Metro East area.

Lucky1

05-03-04, 07:03 PM

Originally posted by duihlein

Roger,
Here is a link in the HD recorder forum where they discuss connections to the 6200. Look toward the end (about page 33/34) and someone has posted a utility for archiving to XP.

They also mention the drivers they used. (meidvhs?)

Hope this helps and keep us posted!

Davehttp://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show...threadid=353608

Dave,

So far I haven't been able to find the meidvhs drivers. Also, my DCT6208 has firmware version 07.07 and from what I read in the other threads it sounds like I need version 07.10 in order to be able to connect a pc. (Mac and Linux work with 07.07). I wonder if Charter would upgrade my firmware if I told them my firmware does not work with my PC?

Roger

Robert Simandl

05-03-04, 07:17 PM

jedi35

05-03-04, 07:43 PM

abcward,

Check voom.com for detailed pricing, but the entry level package is $39.90, and the Va Va Voom package that gives you just about everything is $79.90. If you choose to rent the eq., they'll add about 9 or 10 bucks to that. Premium PlusPak channels(like multi-channel HBO, SHO, STARZ, etc.) can be added to the basic package for $14.90 each. I had to have everything, so I got it all.

Saluki,

In Charter's case here in St. Louis, the digital channels to me look a lot better than the analog ones. Their digital channels equal or may even surpass what I normally see on Directv in my system.

Cam1,

My digital ABC feed does seem to be popping in and out more than usual. However, when the signal is getting through, it's not stuttering. I'm just blaming it on bad reception today. I'm out by the airport, and any of my digitals are subject to go in and out on any given day at any time.

And yes, the new Voom line-up is running right now, including ESPN-HD. If you all would like, I'll compare what this channel looks like on both Charter HD and Voom. When's the next feature in hd on ESPN?

Saluki

05-03-04, 07:59 PM

Originally posted by jedi35

Saluki,

In Charter's case here in St. Louis, the digital channels to me look a lot better than the analog ones. Their digital channels equal or may even surpass what I normally see on Directv in my system.
jedi-

I am wondering about a Charter analog channel vs. the same channel on DirectTV (digital). For example, ESPN via Charter vs. ESPN on DirectTV. Does DirectTV have a sizable PQ advantage here?

Tom Grooms

05-03-04, 08:51 PM

Absolutely! Charters analog network is horrible (bordering on unwatchable) :(

Quort

05-03-04, 11:28 PM

Installation update:

I got the Motorola HDT100 today (am using a CM4228 antenna, live in Troy MO area). I really wanted to see what I could get without much tweaking of the antenna (and I didn't have much time to mount the antenna yet) so I just propped it up in the attic, ran some regular coax to the STB, and started the autoprogram. I can get Fox, ABC, CBS, NBC, and WB just fine (about 6 of 10 bars on the strength meter on average). When I manually tuned the box to 47 to try the UPN channel, I get a severely pixellated picture, but it stays in and doesn't drop out. I assume with some antenna tweaking I should be able to get 47 acceptably. There is no sign of PBS atm though. I have to say, from all I have read about issues with reception on various boxes, I'm impressed with how the Motorola behaves, even though it is a very basic unit.

DroptheRemote

05-04-04, 12:43 AM

Quort,

Your initial results sound promising. Maybe once you've got your antenna permanently mounted and fine-tune the positioning you'll have better luck with 39 and 47.

Glad to hear it looks to be working out for you.

jedi35

05-04-04, 04:31 AM

Saluki,

Sorry that I misunderstood you. Yes, I agree that Directv has much better picture than the same channel on Charter analog. I'm pretty sure that anyone who's seen the two would agree.

Bill787

05-04-04, 08:40 AM

Originally posted by Cam1
Is anyone else still experiencing problems with ABC's OTA feed. Mine has become unwatchable. I am experiencing a stuttering effect. I have the TS-360 so I don't really trust my signal strength meter. Is this a network feed issue or do I need to look at my equipment.
Cam1--
I have the same stuttering problem as you. It is not a happy answer for us: There are some OTA Receivers on the market which don't work well with 720P (currently only used by ABC). These include the Zenith HD420 and the Panasonic TUHDS 20. The problem was happening last July, but then an unknown change cleared it up for us. It started again in April.

Bottom line is that this is not a signal strength problem and that majority of channel 30 viewers don't have a problem. If it's any consolation we have a great station engineer at ch 30 (WRacer) who is a friend of many on this forum and has tried to figure out how to adapt to our badly designed receivers, but with no success.

Many critical viewers think ABC's 720P signal is the best HD picture quality on the planet right now. We need new receviers.

Bill (Saint Charles)

DroptheRemote

05-04-04, 08:54 AM

Just curious if anyone else had problems during last night's "CSI: Miami."

About halfway through the program, after returning from a commercial break, the picture went postal, with lots of tiny green dots and what looked to be MPEG errors. I switched over to a couple of other OTA and satellite channels, and no problem. Went back to KMOV-DT and the problem continued.

I eventually switched over to the analog side (5-Minute Rule not in effect when program viewing in progress). About 10 minutes later I checked back and the problem had cleared up.

I checked the HDTV Progamming forum here and no one else reported the problem, so I'm assuming it was local to KMOV or to my system.

Ideally, I'd like to eliminate my system as the problem...

wmschultz

05-04-04, 09:25 AM

Yeah Doug, I had the same issue. It was right after one of their breaks from local programming. At the next break for local, it cleared up.

I installed my new DB8 antenna last night. I must have it pointed incorrectly because I can't get Fox or PBS at all. I need to get back up
there and "point" it again.

My wife is happy since I took the 180inch antenna down though. :D

wmschultz

05-04-04, 09:32 AM

The DirecTV 7S launch was successful. I am watching the broadcast via Sea Lauch right now.

Bill787

05-04-04, 10:52 AM

Originally posted by jedi35
Saluki,

Sorry that I misunderstood you. Yes, I agree that Directv has much better picture than the same channel on Charter analog. I'm pretty sure that anyone who's seen the two would agree.
Saluki, I may just be in a good location as the Charter line which runs through my back yard in Saint Charles has a really good analog picture on most channels. When directly comparing with DirectTV I found Charter preferable with subtle texture especially in shadows and shading, and mercifully free of motion artifacts. The complete lack of texture with DirectTV (or any other low bit rate digital including those on Charter) means that there is absolutely no noise in the picture, compared to a small amount of analog "perfume" on the Charter line. Many folks like the look of this sterile background and declare in favor of low bit rate digitals. But I have a real aversion to them.

Don't mean to ramble on about Standard Def pictures, because after time with HD I can rarely bring myself to watch them anyway.

Cheers,
Bill

DroptheRemote

05-04-04, 10:55 AM

I've got a near-term business opportunity in the works but in order to take advantage of it, I need to get some hands-on experience in calibrating a couple of the most recent Toshiba HDTV models.

As a result, I'm prepared to offer a discount off my normal price list to thread participants (or lurkers) here who have Toshiba RPTVs that they're interested in having calibrated.

The models that I'm interested in are Toshiba H83, HX83, H93 and HX93 models. Any size or aspect ratio are fine, though I have slight preference for widescreen models.

As background, I have quite a lot of experience in calibrating Toshiba HDTVs (a dozen or so), as one of the dealers in the area that I've worked with used to sell them. However, my dealer's distributor of choice recently dropped Toshiba from their line, and as a result I haven't seen or worked on any of the new models from the past year. I think this change in distribution is one of the reasons I'm seeing so few of these Toshiba sets in the St. Louis market in the past year and that's a major factor driving this offer.

My main area of interest is calibration of multiple grayscales and scan rates (for example, 480p and 1080i sources) using the so-called "extended service codes" that Toshiba provides to approved calibrators. These codes changed with the introduction of the H83/HX83 and H93/HX93 models. Of course, I've been authorized by Toshiba to have and use these codes.

In general, I don't expect that apart from the changed extended codes there are any major differences between these models and the H81, HX81, H82 and HX82 models that I'm most acquainted with. But I don't stretch the truth when someone asks about my calibration credentials, and therefore I need to be able to say that I've actually worked on a couple of each of these sets when pursuing the other opportunity.

Ideally I need to get these Toshibas under my belt by June 1, but first preference will be given to customers interested in scheduling earlier. I'm only interested in offering this for two of the H83/HX83 models and two of the H93/HX93 models, so be aware that this isn't an open-ended, unlimited sort of deal.

The discount that I'm offering is 40% off my published rate card, which can be found here:

http://www.clearlyresolved.com/pricelist.pdf

FYI, that 40% reduction is the same rate that I give to returning customers who want a calibration tune-up.

Finally, let me apologize for stepping across the line between "no strings attached OTA assistance" and "blatant commercial pitch." I do try to keep my online pandering in check. I ultimately decided to cross that line with this offer because it's a "one hand washing the other" sort of deal and I need to get something lined up with these newer Toshiba sets sooner rather than later.

If anyone with one of the H83, HX83, H93 or HX93 models is interested, call me on either of the phone numbers below, or send me a private AVS message and we can take it from there.

Again, my apologies to anyone annoyed by the sales pitch here. Now, back to our regularly scheduled local OTA reception issues...

abcward

05-04-04, 11:02 AM

Doug, I just sent you a PM - I have model 51H83.

Bruce

Mr_Bester

05-04-04, 11:14 AM

John Kotches

05-04-04, 11:41 AM

Doug,

The problem cleared up about 1/2 way through that segment of the program.

First they switched to the SD feed, and a few minutes later, they switched back to the HD feed.

Cheers,

Bill787

05-04-04, 11:53 AM

Originally posted by Mr_Bester
On the panasonic, the problem was a low bitrate from ABC. WRacer stated that he turned the bitrate up from 13 to 19Mbs(iirc) and that cleared everything up on the panasonic.
I think WRacer has told us he's passing ABC network in Prime Time without processing, so he's not manipulating the bitrate locally. Notice that local commercials don't show up during Prime Time but instead are the network's Public Service fillers.

I'm sure WRacer will be thinking about your post, and I wonder if his previous increase in bitrate from 13 to 19Mbs was back in July 03 (the same time as our problem receivers cleared up).

Bill (Saint Charles)

Sandmanvnvmc

05-04-04, 02:49 PM

Just found this site today .... finally people who will understand what I'm talking about!!

I have dishnet without HD (Have had it for years) and a T165 OTA box. I am getting Charter HD tomorrow (could not pass up their $79.99 package for all movie channels, HD and internet service). I guess I need to keep the 165 to receive all of the locals for now. I chose Charter over the sattelite companies until they get their issues on PVR and TIVO resolved. They have said they are releasing their PVR's next month for a year and a half now. The Dish PVR921 sounds great but you can't get it and the people who have them say they are full of bugs and the firewire ports are not inabled. I want to get a DVHS for time shifting HD and a possible archive now and then but need the firewire ports to work. I see Charter has enabled the firewire so that's a plus for now plus there is no outlay for the equipment.

I have a 65 inch Mitsubishi HDTV and many of the regular dish channels look like crap. I don't even use the regualr tuner that's built in. I called Dish, their techs had no idea what I was talking about and the sales people at Ultimate were clueless. With investigation over a period of 6 months I was able to determine that low level analog signals don't due well on digital TV's. So I told my freinds to wait on digital TV until the locals broadcast in HD. Well that day is here (for ota) except for a few bugs so I say go for it.
I'm sure charters analog channels will probably look like crap on the 65 incher...such is the suffering for the explorers on the edge of technology. (lol)
I'lll be checking in and let you know how the charter install went.

abcward

05-04-04, 02:54 PM

Welcome aboard Sandmanvnvmc, glad to see there's another Wildwood resident with us!

BradZ

05-04-04, 04:07 PM

Yes, welcome, Sandmanvnvmc. We do understand your affliction. As you may or may not know, there is no cure for the disease. We are here because only we know how it feels to stand on a roof tweaking an antenna to improve signal strength to receive a special event in glorious HD only to discover that the entire station was down when we checked and there was nothing wrong with the system in the first place. Only we can sympathize with you over the merits of Dolby Digital 2.0 vs DPLII in the event that a local station can't pass true DD 5.1. Only we obsess over the minute details trying to determine whether 720p or 1080i is better and for what. Here you can see if a program was soft or if you need to go to the eyedoctor. And only we can argue at length about 14:9 vs. 4:3 vs. Zoom presentations for standard definition programming. My wife thinks I'm crazy- HA! she has no idea how crazy I really am!!! ;)

You have found a home Sandmanvnvmc. Also make sure to check out the rest of the forum if you think your surround system is finished. I've found the folks here are experts in the field of spurring upgraditis.

Scroft391

05-04-04, 04:30 PM

Cam1,

I have the Zenith model and experience the drop out effect as well. I am located in Edwardsville but I do not know if this is a factor. My strength meeter shows a high signal strength but the picture is very choppy. The sound is very smooth with no drop-outs. I also noticed that this only occurs on the National feeds. Any local programing (such as local commercials or syndicated re-runs) do not have this problem. I wish there was a fix for my system but until then, I will be forced to watch another High Def channel. I really miss some of ABC's programs too.

tcfila

05-04-04, 05:19 PM

Originally posted by Sandmanvnvmc
Just found this site today .... finally people who will understand what I'm talking about!!

I have dishnet without HD (Have had it for years) and a T165 OTA box. I am getting Charter HD tomorrow (could not pass up their $79.99 package for all movie channels, HD and internet service).

How did you get all that for $79.99? What speed is your internet and is that for only 3 months?

redwine

05-04-04, 06:38 PM

There is a fiber optic cable thats been sitting on my fence for several weeks. They pulled it out of the ground while road construction is being done. Do you think I should tap in to it? Could I get giga bit internet speeds? All the channels on cable? Whooo...

DroptheRemote

05-04-04, 07:59 PM

I'm not sure that Moxi is the slam dunk failure that "the Swanni" foresees in the article link below, but it is hard to argue with him on this point:

"...it will be difficult, if not impossible, for cable operators to clearly communicate what Moxi does -- and why anyone should care."

http://www.tvpredictions.com/moxi050404.html

For those unfamiliar with Moxi, this is the technology that Charter plans to use for its to-be-launched-someday DVR technology in the St. Louis market.

Both Charter Communications and the originator of Moxi, Diego, are companies owned by former Microsoft co-founder Paul Allen.

Mattman

05-04-04, 08:44 PM

Just hooked up the new DirecTV HD-TiVo in my theater! I'm not home much during prime time so I've been missing out on most of the HD stuff that I want to watch so I'm pretty excited. It looks like it will take 24 hours or so for the guide to really populate itself so I won't get to really put it through it's paces until tomorrow. The OTA tuner seems to be stronger than my Samsung TS160, which is encouraging. I will post more as I get to play with it.

Robert Simandl

05-04-04, 08:55 PM

Argh! The HD Tivo will probably be another month off for me :( I didn't get my Value Electronics preorder in until March 5 so there's still a bunch of people ahead of me.

Tom Grooms

05-04-04, 10:54 PM

Sorry redwine, It's dark fiber.

No soup for you!

Cam1

05-04-04, 11:19 PM

kwatkins

05-04-04, 11:34 PM

I've been lurking in this forum for a few weeks as I planned my new, small home theater. This is my first post. I was wondering if I should hold off on a new DVD player until Charter released their Moxi in St. Louis. I emailed Charter and a CS rep emailed me back and said no DVD player and didn't know about firewire. I'm going to need a new receiver for HD anyway, and I liked the idea of the Moxi with networking and DVD player. Oh well, what do I do now? Keep using my old TiVo box and get a Momitsu V880N when it comes out???

redwine

05-05-04, 12:03 AM

Originally posted by Tom Grooms
Sorry redwine, It's dark fiber.

No soup for you!

So that explains why it did not bleed red when I cut it.

redwine

05-05-04, 12:22 AM

Is TiVo and the similar systems for people who watch weekly network programs and cannot afford to miss an episode? Is it the ability to fast forward over commercials? I don't understand.

If I program my TiVo to record the programs I want to watch but can't, when will I have the time to watch what I recorded?

I like any machine that can record HD so I will probably get one for this but if I ever get too busy so that I am scheduling it weekly .....I need to reevaluate my life.

Joseph Clark

05-05-04, 12:49 AM

Originally posted by Bill787
Cam1--
I have the same stuttering problem as you. It is not a happy answer for us: There are some OTA Receivers on the market which don't work well with 720P (currently only used by ABC). These include the Zenith HD420 and the Panasonic TUHDS 20. The problem was happening last July, but then an unknown change cleared it up for us. It started again in April.

Bottom line is that this is not a signal strength problem and that majority of channel 30 viewers don't have a problem. If it's any consolation we have a great station engineer at ch 30 (WRacer) who is a friend of many on this forum and has tried to figure out how to adapt to our badly designed receivers, but with no success.

Many critical viewers think ABC's 720P signal is the best HD picture quality on the planet right now. We need new receviers.

Bill (Saint Charles)

I want to make sure I understand the stuttering problem some people seem to be having. Does this consist of an almost strobe-like choppiness of the image? If so, my MyHD card has the problem. I recorded the same program on both a HiPix system and the MyHD system. No stuttering on the HiPix, but the last two episodes of Alias on MyHD have been all but unwatchable. Bummer, because I like the MyHD card better than the HiPix for most things.

On another topic, I noticed a question from someone in the April forum, before the May started, asking if Voom has FireWire. The answer is no. I've read conflicting things, but I don't believe they intend to add the feature to their DVR when it's released. Apparently, they intend to use Microsoft's WMV9 codec to double their high definition and standard definition capacity. Seems unlikely, then, that they would try to enable FireWire. There wouldn't be any digital VHS machines able to decode a WMV9 stream.

Also on the Voom topic, I've had the service since last Friday and I thought I'd give a brief report of what I think so far. First of all, the HD channels offer much more variety than anything Dish or Charter have. I have Charter for high speed Internet, but for HD they're not a player yet. Just not enough options. However, they do have FireWire enabled outputs on some of their boxes, so you can record Showtime and HBO to D-VHS. Might be enough reason for some to think about it. I'm considering it if I can get a cheap enough HD-only package.

OK, so back to Voom. CF Communications did my install. Jedi35, I happened to get Chris for my install, too. He was very knowledgeable and the install was utterly painless. I was up and running fast.

HD quality looks on par or better than what I get with my Dish 6000 (to a Sharp 9000 projector). Local channels, too. SD is SD. I had read reports that their SD channels are better than Dish or Direct, and I had read that their SD channels sucked. It's a wash. SD sucks, and whether it sucks a little less with one system or another doesn't much matter to me.:rolleyes:

There is a USB port on the back of the Voom box, but I'm not quite sure what it's for. I believe I read something about a USB keyboard or mouse, but I don't have any confirmation on that, nor a purpose for that matter.

The two SD channels that I do miss having are Fox Sports Net (for Cardinals games) and The SciFi Channel. I do get both of those with the basic Charter package, though. I've also grown fond of some of the HDNet programming, but that does not provide enough incentive to stay with Dish past an obligation I have in September. Within a week or so, I will be scaling back Dish to the bare minimum I need for my obligation, then in September it's gone. The 921 disaster and the Superdish fiasco were enough for me.

Voom has several special interest channels - something for a lot of different tastes. You can watch a program on a Berlin art museum on Gallery, or switch over to see Amy Grant on Rave. The 21 movie channels each run the same movie over and over all day, but it does mean that when I feel like surfing, at any one point in time, I have all those channels
plus HBO east and west, Showtime east and West, Starz, Encore and a lot more HD choices. The HD experience just feels a whole lot richer now. So far, I am very happy with Voom. It's a keeper.

I do have a confirmation on one problem area with the remote control. It has a hair trigger. With my Dish remote, it sometimes feels like I'm squeezing the last bit of toothpaste out of a reluctant tube. With the Voom remote, just a little extra pressure has the channels flying by like a group of startled squirrels.

What a scientific report on Voom. Aren't you glad you read this? I thnk I need some sleep.

4113

05-05-04, 01:33 AM

Hello Group,

I am chuckling at some of the previous speculation on my whereabouts.

Believe me, I have much thicker skin than to be bothered by Charter bit@ching. In reality, I was directly effected by one of the many rerganization's at Charter so I actually had more important things on my mind than this message board. I am still searching for employ, but getting closer to landing something that I will enjoy within the industry.

Going forward, I hope to shed some light on your technical issues, not only for hobby, but to stay sharp. I also look forward to learning from the wealth of knowledge within the group.

I will continue with anonymity and still take caution in my comments as I am under a strict written agreement with Charter.

So, I'm back. What's the latest?

4113

duihlein

05-05-04, 06:36 AM

Glad to see your still around, sorry you were part of the reorg.

Perhaps you can shed some light on the lack of HD programming on Charter. I've been following a thread from Wisconsin regarding Charters lack of bandwidth up there:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=392947

It seems that stacking HD channels is causing severe PQ problems:

code:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Station Digital Channel Channel
-------------------------------------------------
HDNet 770 657 MHz
HDNet Movies 771 657 MHz
ESPN-HD 773 663 MHz
FSN-HD 774 657 MHz
HBO-HD 777 663 MHz
SHO-HD 778 663 MHz
NBC-HD 782 669 MHz
FOX 788 675 MHz
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is it possible there are technical reasons Charter is not offering more?
Any insight you can provide will be most helpful.
Thanks

Dave

DroptheRemote

05-05-04, 06:57 AM

4113,

It's great to have you back here, but sorry to hear to hear that you got caught up in the Charter re-org.

I hope things works out for you soon and that you do find something that you'll enjoy and that provides lots of new opportunity.

DroptheRemote

05-05-04, 07:56 AM

redwine,

Your confusion about the benefits and value of TiVo is understandable and that was really the whole point of the "Swanni" article about Moxi, which seems to be infinitely more ambitious in what it is attempting to accomplish than a basic digital video recorder (DVR).

Swann's point was that the companies building and selling this equipment haven't done a very good job of explaining the benefits of basic DVRs and making it seem easier. He also rightly points out that the general consumer just wants to watch television, not spend their time wading through multiple remote controls, menus and guides to find the program they're looking for.

I know this first-hand, as I've shown my father how to use ReplayTV (similar to TiVo) at least 100 times and he still asks me the most basic questions and consistently puts the Replay box into standby mode when he means to turn the TV off. Even after 3 years, he doesn't get it, though he does know how to find something that was previously recorded and knows how to cue it up and watch it. Perversely, he actually likes Replay overall and has had me show it to his friends when they come to visit.

But I am a huge fan of TiVo and ReplayTV, and I'm sure that some of the other wanna-be DVR devices have their supporters, too.

But to address some of the specific questions or issues that you've raised:

* You don't have to have to spend a lot of time futzing around with scheduling with either TiVo or ReplayTV. Say you want to set up to record CSI. You just scroll to CSI in the program guide (or use the search function for it to find it for you). Then you tell the box whether you want to record it once or whether you want to record it every time it's on (on TiVo this is called a Season Ticket). If you set things up for multiple events, you never have to worry about scheduling CSI again. It's done and the box will take care of finding the program and recording it as you've instructed it to -- forever and ever until the end of time (or until it's canceled).

* Also with TiVo or Replay, you have the ability to set up something to record and to keep it virtually indefinitely if that's what you want to do. On Replay this is accomplished by making a program "guaranteed," which means you are "reserving" space for that program and it will get recording priority over other programs that might be scheduled to record during the same time period. You can add a further level of certainty that the program will be there when you want to watch it by telling Replay that you want to keep multiple episodes.

For example, Spike TV has recently started showing re-runs of "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine." This is my favorite of the Star Trek series and because it began showing when I was living in Asia, I missed the first three or four seasons. So, I've got my ReplayTV box set up to do guaranteed recordings of DS9 for every daily episode and I've also set it up to keep six episodes on the disk in order to allow me time to get around to watching them (I'm actually having a hard time keeping up, but that's another story). This works on a FIFO basis, so that if I haven't gotten to the oldest of the six episodes, it will be erased when the seventh episode appears on Spike.

* The other great benefit of TiVo and Replay is jumping over commercials, though at least on my version of Replay you can see them go by and I do occasionally go back if I see something that's interesting. But yes, for the most part I skip them. But this feature isn't just about resisting the noisy sales pitches, it's about saving time. By jumping over the stuff you're not interested in, you can watch a 30-minute program in around 20 minutes and you can watch an hour program in around 40 minutes. So instead of spending MORE time in front of the television, you actually end up spending less, or at least the time you're spending is more productive.

* The only other thing I'll say about TiVo and ReplayTV is that these devices give you a fighting chance of getting your money's worth from an expanded or premium cable or satellite subscription package. It's not just a matter of watching the stuff you're watching now and doing it more quickly, but with the ease of scheduling, it's much easier to seek out programming that you might be interested in but never would bother to watch in real-time or try to record with a VCR. For some personal examples of this, I have a number of Food Network and History Channel programs that I like to watch but can't justify any special effort to see. As a result, when I've got some downtime and I'm looking for something to watch, I'm not aimlessly surfing around looking for something decent -- I'm going into my Replay queue and pulling up the History and Food channel stuff that Replay has been submissively seeking out for me.

If you (or anyone else) decides to get a Replay or TiVo, I encourage you to err on the side of getting TOO MUCH storage capacity -- get as much as your can possibly afford. My original ReplayTV ONLY had capacity for 30 hours, which sounds like a lot but isn't really, especially if you set it to record at higher quality (more like 12 to 15 hours). To really take advantage of all the DVR flexibility features, you need a lot of storage (for example, for storing six episodes of DS9). I recently did a self-upgrade on my 30-hour Replay box and it now has more than 90 hours storage, which in practice works out to be about 50 hours of actual programming at medium quality. There are published instructions on the web for how to "hack" and expand the storage of both TiVo and Replay, though I'm not sure how applicable that is to the current versions of these products that are being sold, or whether it would apply to the HD version of TiVo.

Upgrading my ReplayTV box took only an hour, once I bought the hard drives, downloaded some software and read through the instructions.

It's been said to the point that it really has become a cliche, but it's true that a DVR will change your life -- or at least that part of your life given over to television...

DroptheRemote

05-05-04, 09:00 AM

Joseph,

Do you know when VOOM decided to go with WM9? I had heard that the original plan was to switch to MPEG4 and that all the hardware they've sold was set up for that eventuality.

I know that MPEG4 uptake has been slowed significantly because the royalties are seen to be exorbitant. Maybe VOOM decided the same and when it wasn't able to extract better terms decided to go with Microsoft. I'm sure Microsoft would be pretty flexible as they're extremely eager to get a foothold in the professional codec marketplace.

I assume that VOOM could address any change by sending a firmware download.

Anyway, any chance you have any links that covers the VOOM move to WM9? I'd like to get more up to speed on this...

StLouG

05-05-04, 09:16 AM

Doug thanks for the comments on DVR's. It cleared up a lot of issues for me. Again this forum is a great teacher. Also welcome back 4113. I hope the job hunt goes well.

dweebe

05-05-04, 10:06 AM

4113: please check your PM mailbox.

BradZ

05-05-04, 10:12 AM

redwine,

Let me say that I am a Tivo evangelist. It is the one A/V purchase I have made that my wife wouldn't part with. She could live without HD or surround sound, but woe is the person who tries to take her Tivo away.

The main benefit for us is that we have two small kids and if you've ever tried to watch a show with kids screaming and playing you know that's impossible. Also, several shows we like (Sopranos, Deadwood, South Park, etc.) aren't appropriate for children. What we do is set up season passes for all our favorite shows and leave the TV off all night. This lets us concentrate on the kids and have quality family time. Then after the kids go to bed- we can watch a couple of tv shows that were on during primetime that we would have otherwise missed. And since we can skip commercials a half hour show is only 20 min. and an hour show is only 40 min.

Another bonus is I can record several Disney movies and several episodes of my kids favorite shows so even when there's nothing good on- I've got something on the hard drive to entertain them.

Trust me, Tivo is one of those things that you have to own to appreciate. Once you've bought a DVR you'll wonder how you ever lived without it. As far as the HD Tivo goes, I'd love one, but I can't justify $1K. Hopefully after the initial hoopla DirecTV will offer a discount or the next model will be cheaper. The wife says we don't buy until it hits $500. Our SD model was only $100- best $100 I ever spent on A/V equipment.

Mr_Bester

05-05-04, 10:32 AM

If there is a problem with the samsung 360 and abc 30, it does not extend to the 160. I've been watching abc without problems the last couple of nights.
Dug

abcward

05-05-04, 12:16 PM

4113,

Welcome back, we missed your Charter information and this group welcomes any participation from you.

I'm sorry about your job situation - I feel for you since I am in the exact same boat. Good luck on your quest.

Bruce

4113

05-05-04, 05:29 PM

Originally posted by duihlein
Is it possible there are technical reasons Charter is not offering more?
Any insight you can provide will be most helpful.
Thanks

Dave

Dave,

Bandwidth is not the issue at all. The largest hurdle is in negotiations between the cable company and the programmers.

From the beginning of the HDTV project, there was bandwidth allocated for approximately 12 HD channels. Keep in mind, there can be many ways to allocate the bandwidth, but this was the base for the launch. Obviously, with the popularity of HDTV, this can change.

In addition, when St. Louis launches 100% digital programming, this opens a lot more bandwidth. (Note: Long Beach was first cable MSO to launch 100% digital network).

Regarding bandwidth, let me explain this as simply as possible for those who don't know. In the cable world...

- A single analog channel requires 6mhz of bandwidth.

- With digital, 10-13 digitally compressed channels can be delivered over the same 6mhz.

- Finally, 2-3 HD channels can be delivered over the same 6 mhz.

Now imagine this, in many areas there are about 86 analog video channels. In the future this could translate into 1118 digital channels or 258 HD channels. Of course this is only for example and not a realistic expectation.

In reality, there just is not enough programming out there to hit these numbers.

Again, bandwidth is not a problem in the modern hybrid fiber/coax cable plant.

4113

DroptheRemote

05-05-04, 06:01 PM

4113,

Your explanation of what is happening with digital compression sounds like you've not only sipped the Kool-Aid but swallowed up the entire company punch bowl on the way out the door. ;)

Ten digital channels (never mind 13) in 6 Mhz of bandwidth is going to result in a severely compromised picture. It's like selling 150-pound bags of dog food over the Internet -- just because it can be done, doesn't mean that it's necessarily a sound business idea.

To be honest, I don't know what the actual number of NTSC channels that can reasonably fit in 6 Mhz of bandwidth with digital compression. But the same sort of approach is used for subchannels by broadcast digitals, and I believe the idea there was either one HD channel in 6 Mhz or 5 NTSC subchannels. Of course, we're already seeing one HD channel alongside two NTSCs (PBS) and the results are clearly a visible and unwelcome compromise in image quality.

Ten digital channels in 6 Mhz would seem to be pushing the very edges of the envelope, But then again, that might go a long way toward explaining why digital cable image quality is not what it should, or could, be.

I think it's also correct to say that none of the analog channels on Charter are being given a full 6 Mhz swath of bandwidth and that quite aggressive analog compression is being applied there, too.

I'll admit that I'm not an expert on this stuff and if someone with bona fide engineering credentials contradicts me, I'll back down.

4113, sorry to dispute you so soon after your welcome return here, but the numbers you're suggesting don't sound anything like a recipe for acceptable video quality.

DroptheRemote

05-05-04, 06:12 PM

Actually, I went back and re-read that compression explanation a third time and now I see the most frightening part:

"Finally, 2-3 HD channels can be delivered over the same 6 Mhz."

Geez, if the cable (or satellite) companies are really headed down THAT road, why don't they just enclose with our next billing statements a pair of matching ice picks that we can all slam into eye sockets on the count of three?

Same effect, quicker.

dweebe

05-05-04, 06:54 PM

Originally posted by 4113

In addition, when St. Louis launches 100% digital programming, this opens a lot more bandwidth. (Note: Long Beach was first cable MSO to launch 100% digital network).

4113 [/B]

Do you mean 100% digital that means that everyone has to have a digital converter box? I still have analog cable (running right into my TV) and Charter just raised my prices where digital would almost be the same. It sounds like they're trying to push all us analog users to digital.

I'm going to wait for the Moxi DVR to upgrade. No reason to deal with two service calls if the DVR is really coming out this summer.

John Kotches

05-05-04, 08:08 PM

Doug,

Be careful not to confuse the channel width (6MHz) with the data rate delivered via that channel.

Cheers,

DroptheRemote

05-05-04, 08:38 PM

Am I confused? Maybe I am.

But here's where I'm coming from: An NTSC analog channel requires 6 Mhz of bandwidth uncompressed. This is the bandwidth allocated to a current over-the-air NTSC channels and ATSC digitals.

A 1080i signal can be compressed down to 19.2 Mb to fit into that 6 Mhz bandwidth, which is a major element of the magic of MPEG compression and the way it is used in the ATSC specification. Previous to taking the MPEG path, there had previously been discussion of HD requiring two or even three contiguous slices of 6 Mhz bandwidth.

But according to my understanding, there's no way that two or three 1080i (or 720p or some combination) could be squeezed into the same 6 Mhz bandwidth without serious degradation -- unless all three channels were showing static or near-static images. Maybe that would work with Picasso Channel, the Van Gogh Channel and the Warhol Channel, but I don't think it would work for ESPN-HD, Discovery and HBO-HD, at least not without looking a lot like the crap we see today on standard-definition cable and satellite.

Again, if I'm off the beam here, help get me back on it while I frame a retraction to 4113.

John Kotches

05-05-04, 09:37 PM

Doug,

You assumption is that the method that stacks the data within the channel is going to be indentical to OTA.

I don't think it is, I believe that cable can indeed place more than 1 channels worth of data (for HD) within that same 6 MHz bandwidth.

OTA is sent via 8VSB, it is unlikely that cable is also using 8VSB as an encoding technique.

They might be using something with more states (maybe 16 states) which would indeed improve the transmission efficacy.

Cheers,

BudShark

05-05-04, 11:28 PM

256QAM yields 38.8Mbps raw data per 6Mhz band. That allows 2 HD channels without compression. There are technologies available (statistical multiplexing) that could get you to >50Mbps which would allow 3 HD channels without major compression.

By the way - 10 analogs fit in the same 6 Mhz band. Not sure where 4113 is getting his numbers.

The problem with statistical multiplexing can be seen in compaints from satellite users. For the statistical multiplexing to work without issues (ie: compression evidence) you have to group fast motion channels with quiet channels. If you happen to group ESPNHD, FOXHD during NASCAR, and a fast action seen on SHOHD - you'd be screwed. There would be compression effects, drops, and blocking on all the channels. So you have to be very careful about what you piece together.

Chris

DroptheRemote

05-05-04, 11:31 PM

Well, there goes a perfectly good ice pick line... :rolleyes:

4113, I respectfully retract my comments.

Still, I can't help but remain extremely concerned (or paranoid) that both cable and satellite have a track record of playing too fast and too loose with image quality in their desire to stuff more video (and now in the case of cable, more data and telephony stuff) down their respective pipes.

While I appreciate the need to fully leverage assets, it seems that everything is about quantity and that picture quality rarely gets a seat at the table. There seems plenty of scope for this getting worse on the cable side of the equation, to the point where I think video services could become a secondary consideration.

I'm probably in the minority, but I'd much rather deal with a company that's focused on providing quality video and audio without the bells and whistles of 250 channels, interactive services, video-on-demand, and DVRs. I mean, if the picture isn't worth looking at, none of that other stuff adds any real value for me. What's the point of having a 60-inch screen today (and hopefully a 100-inch screen tomorrow) if the picture looks deranged on a 27-inch screen?

Worse, it's not difficult to imagine HDTV tumbling ass over elbows down the same slippery slope as analog TV before it. Not to beat a dying horse, but if PBS is stomping on HD quality in exchange for more quantity, where's the bottom?

redwine

05-05-04, 11:48 PM

Well, you guys had fun with the bandwidth conversation. All I know is I better get a TiVo or else.

I don't know how broadcast or cable digital operates but I do work everyday with data networking. Bandwidth is bits-per-second no matter the medium to achieve it. I think the point 4113 was making was that Charter has enough analog capacity to run many more digital and HD channels if they get rid of the existing analog channels 1-99 which don't require the digital STB. This would piss off many existing customers.

It is all about businessmen and their fat cigars. We won't get more HD until some businessman thinks he can make more profit. 4113 needs a job because of this thinking.

DroptheRemote

05-06-04, 01:12 AM

Oregon Prison Allows Flat Screens in Inmate Cells

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sns-ap-prison-tv,0,1536574.story?coll=sns-ap-nation-headlines

4113

05-06-04, 01:41 AM

Originally posted by DroptheRemote

Ten digital channels (never mind 13) in 6 Mhz of bandwidth is going to result in a severely compromised picture.

I think it's also correct to say that none of the analog channels on Charter are being given a full 6 Mhz swath of bandwidth and that quite aggressive analog compression is being applied there, too.

I'll admit that I'm not an expert on this stuff and if someone with bona fide engineering credentials contradicts me, I'll back down.

Just got back from a concert...I see the board has been buzzing.

Okay, 13 channels was just a tiny bit much...I was in a hurry.
The actual number is up to 12.

Doug, analog compression?...[scratching head]...HUH? Please explain.

One analog NTSC channel is 6 Mhz wide...5.75 is for the COLOR video signal, and 250 kHz used for the audio signal...period.

I am speaking from plenty of experience...trust me. No engineer needed...this is not rocket science.

The point of my "example" was that there is plenty of bandwidth. Negotiations are the issue in the lack of HD in most upgraded [edit] cable systems.

4113
NCTI, SCTE, SBCA

4113

05-06-04, 01:55 AM

Below is an excerpt from one of my many textbooks in the bookcase to my left that I have studied and collected over the years. Thank god for OCR document scanners...I never would have typed all this. If any of you enjoy this, I can provide additional cable primers in the future.
4113

Digital Video Compression
Source:
Modern Cable Television Technology (http://www.edu-books.com/Modern_Cable_Television_Technology_Video_Voice_and_Data_Comm unications_1558604162.html)
Walter Ciciora/James Farmer/David Large
1999

Digital video compression (DVC) has given massive capacity to the cable spectrum. DVC gained its first momentum in the pursuit of HDTV. The analog bandwidth of signals from an HDTV camera consists of something like 30 MHz each red, blue, and green. Nearly 100 MHz of analog signals would require more than a gigabit per second for straight digital transmission. The FCC, which sets federal regulations on spectrum usage, allows only 6 MHz! As a result, there is a need to remove a lot of the redundancy in the picture. The same technology can be used to squeeze multiple standard definition signals into the same 6 MHz. When DVC is used to put multiple current quality signals into 6 MHz, the result is called standard definition television (SDTV).

DVC was first used by consumers in the Direct Broadcast Satellite (DBS) environment. Both DirecTV and PrimeStar are using a version of the Moving Picture Experts Group (MPEG) standard. DVC compresses signals by removing redundancy in each still picture, by removing redundancy between the series of still pictures that make up a motion sequence, and by deleting those aspects of the image that have minimal visibility to the human visual system.

The reasons for the lower data rate with movies stems from two main factors. First, movies have a 24-frames-per-second rate, whereas video has a 30-framesper-second rate. Although motion reproduction in video is better than in movies,there is a 20 % increase in data required for the same image quality. Second, movies can be processed iteratively. The compressor parameters can be adjusted on a scene-by-scene basis. Much more processing can be brought to bear since the computations do not have to be done "in real time."

The other factor that determines the packing density of movies in the 6-MHz television channel is the modulation method. The two main competitors are quadrature amplitude modulation (QAM) and VSB modulation. These come in various data speed capacities. The two most interesting for cable applications are 256-QAM or 16-VSB. Both are double data rate systems in that they can deliver data payloads of about double the data rate required to deliver one HDTV signal in 6 MHz.

The Advanced Television Test Center (ATTC) completed tests of 16-VSB on cable in Charlotte, North Carolina. The 16-VSB system tested delivered 38.5 Mb/s in all locations. Some older cable systems .were included in the tests. The longest amplifier cascade was 48! Fiber links and microwave amplitude modulated links (AMLs) were also included. 256-QAM delivers similar results. Thus it is possible to transmit 12 DVC movies in 6 MHz at 3 Mb/s each.

Current thinking is to allocate the lower end of the downstream cable spectrum to analog signals. This covers the 50 to 450 MHz (or 550 MHz) frequencies. A basic unscrambled tier of broadcast signals would be at the low end of the spectrum. At higher channel numbers, trapped pay services or analog scrambled services would be supplied. Above 450 or 550 MHz, digital signals would be provided to the band edge located at 750 MHz or 1 GHz. Thus, from 200 MHz (33 6-MHz channels) to 550 MHz (91 6-MHz channels) will be available. With 12 movies per 6 MHz, 396 to 1,092 movies may be offered simultaneously. Of course, digitized video signals (rather than movies) may also be offered by reducing the total number of programs.

The fundamental differences between science and technology are the economic factors and the emphasis on practical application. The main thrust of our concerns is technology, but the technology does not exist in a vacuum. An understanding of the basic economics of the cable business is essential to making appropriate technical decisions.

4113

05-06-04, 02:24 AM

Originally posted by Dave Beebe
Do you mean 100% digital that means that everyone has to have a digital converter box? I still have analog cable (running right into my TV) and Charter just raised my prices where digital would almost be the same. It sounds like they're trying to push all us analog users to digital.

I'm going to wait for the Moxi DVR to upgrade. No reason to deal with two service calls if the DVR is really coming out this summer.

Dave,

The Long Beach system actually was running both analog and the digital service in parallel. This initially gave customers a choice. I am not sure of the status today, but I am sure eventually they will abandon the analog portion.

As cable MSO's go all digital, they will be offering STB's that cost approximately 50% less. There was talk of the Motorola DCT-1700. You can find this stripped down version of the 2000 by doing a simple search with your preferred search engine...(I know you guys will.) This is what you may put in your bedroom or child's room in the future.

Of course the other option will be Cable Card televisions. I have seen demos of these units in the lab environment and they work great.

As far as the DVR...yes, it is coming. There have been older units (BMC-8000) in beta for almost two years now. These were add on boxes to the DCT-2000, affectionately call BOB...Bob On Box.

The BMC-9012 is the big brother to the older unit. Fantastic UI, all in one unit...you will never go back after you use it. I personally used the BMC-9012 through in the last year. It will be available before you know it.

4113

4113

05-06-04, 02:48 AM

My last post reminded of a milestone approaching in DTV...

On July 1st:

Cable operators must make Cable Cards available to customers with Cable Card televisions. (Yes, cable cards will display both analog and digital...no two way services).

and

At least 50% of all televisions 36" and larger must be manufactured with built in ATSC tuners.

4113

jedi35

05-06-04, 03:44 AM

4113,

Can you shed some light on Charter's future plans with firewire? I've heard reports that I'm going to lose firewire if I get the hd pvr coming out, and that saddens me. I'm really enjoying the ability to record to my d-vhs vcr, and don't understand why I have to give that up if I want to go with the pvr. Is there something inherently wrong with archiving off a pvr that's not wrong with recording to dvhs? Thanks.

Joseph,

I'm glad you got Chris for your Voom install, and I'm happy that you are enjoying the service. I have become a huge Voom fan now. How did I live without it??? Too bad that they have no use for firewire. Although I do love Voom, here are some observations I've made. The Voom program guide doesn't give the user the ability to see future times for a specific program that's cued up like Charter's digital cable box does. I have found this Charter feature to be extremely useful. The Voom guide also does not allow one to search for a program by title. I do have a bit of a problem with the hd quality(or lack thereof) on the 10 Cinema channels and the Monster channel(these are Voom originals). I realize that these channels show mainly older films, but Charter's HDNetMovies channel does a beautiful job of rendering resolution from old classics. Voom falls way short in this game. All other hd channels are way cool and look great, I think. My channels changed a bit slower before the first major software download that the box needed when it was first installed. Still, even though it's better, it's too slow. If you find that I'm off in some of these points, please clue me in.

duihlein

05-06-04, 08:23 AM

4113,
Thanks for the input. I'm still worried about what I see here:

http://www.davesbox.net:70/hd_pics/hdnet_bad.png

http://www.davesbox.net:70/fsn_pics/FSN_nasty.png

Taken from a charter subscriber in MN where they are currently stacking FSN/HDNet and HDNet Movies on the same frequency. I understand that "theoretically" we should be able to do this, but I'm not sure it's working right in the real world.

How is Charter St Louis currently allocatting their HD Channels?
Has anyone noticed this effect here?

Dave

BudShark

05-06-04, 09:43 AM

The stacking causes problems because they are beginning to use statistical multiplexing. There is no other way for them to fit. 256QAM is the modulation scheme. Modulation takes your frequency (megahertz) and yields your bandwidth (megabits). 256QAM yields 38.8Mbps. No other option available, other than 64QAM which yields 20-something. But anyways, Charter uses 256.

So if each HD channel is 19.2mbps uncompressed - you can get 2 channels in a 256QAM 6Mhz stream with no other compression schemes. At that point, if you want more you have 2 options.

1) Compression. Digital compression of the data, the problem is that the digital signals are already basically compressed for delivery. The 19.2Mbps bandwidth requirement is after the signal has been encoded which includes some compression. You can get more, but you'll start seeing artifiacts.

2) Multiplexing. What statistical multiplexing does is assume that at any given time, channels will not use their full allocated bandwidth. This yields about a 25% increase in capacity - anything more is diminishing returns (compression would yield a more consistent end user experience). 38.8Mbps with a 25% increase in bandwidth yields about 48.5Mbps. 48.5Mbps divided by 3 is..... 16Mbps. So you can allocate 16Mbps to each channel - on an equal basis. But again, we are statistically multiplexing here, so that means at any given time you can allocate more bandwidth as needed.

Where option 2 falls apart is when you have channels that due to fast motion and screen changes consistently need >16Mbps. When that happens you begin seeing artifacting, etc.

The debate I believe centers on two different perspectives. We have those that are approaching it from the digital world and looking at raw bandwidth, and those that are looking at the transmission lines. The confusion comes in during the marriage of the two worlds. You have to take into account not just the line frequency, but the modulation of the data onto that line, the encoding of the data before its modulated, and then any compression or multiplexing used on top of that.

Chris

wmschultz

05-06-04, 09:45 AM

Hey fella's,

I don't want to get caught up in the Charter conversation because I can never go to Charter...I have too much invested in D*.

Anyway...I repositioned my new DB8 antenna last night, took out all diplexers and wouldn't you know it, I have about 85-95% signal strength on all channels but 9 and 46. I don't care about 46, but I would like to
get channel 9.

I don't know if it is the antenna or the lack of diplexers and splitters, but I am definately happy with the DB8. My wife even expressed joy with the fact that she doesn't notice it :D

BudShark

05-06-04, 10:01 AM

Diplexers are bad for moving antenna signals around.

If you have diplexers in your setup and have signal problems - remove them!!! You'll get a 20% plus jump in signal strength, and it will hold solid.

Chris

wmschultz

05-06-04, 10:10 AM

NOW YOU TELL ME................Yeah, I read that looking in one of the Voom Topics, that is why I did it. That and I was able to run a new cable for the antenna.

My house is being sided so I have had to run all new wire and move my D* dish and my antenna. I have the wires run and the antenna up. Now I just need to aim my dish again..

I hope to be back to "normal" tonight.

jdonigan

05-06-04, 02:28 PM

Hi, all,

I'm finally among the great washed, and trying to get up to speed with a Samsung T165/JVC 30K/Mac combo.

I live near Big Bend and Manchester in Maplewood, and am using my Radio Shack mast mounted antenna for now.

I can get ABC, NBC, CBS, and PBS digital currently, but don't seem to get WB or UPN. (I have to go back and doublecheck on Fox.)

Do I need to try another antenna? If so, whose?

My 165 is being coy about going back into menu mode.
Is this typical, or do I need to see about warranty service?

Thanks,

John

wmschultz

05-06-04, 02:50 PM

You should be close enough to the towers. It sounds like you are pointing a little bit too much south.

jedi35

05-06-04, 05:36 PM

jdonifgan,

I also have the T165. When you say that it is being coy about going back into menu mode, are you talking about the user menu, or the service menu? Is it unable to do it, or will it do it and malfunction in some way? I have no problems with my user menu, and if you are, then it might be a service issue.

jdonigan

05-06-04, 07:02 PM

user menu.

Mattman

05-06-04, 11:49 PM

Well, so far things are going pretty well with the HD-TiVo except that it doesn't record Seasons Pass shows that are OTA. Hopefully a firmware upgrade is coming. The most pleasant surprise has been the strength of the tuner. My Samsung TS160 has always had some difficulty with NBC and ABC. The TiVo pulled these in without a problem and even snagged UPN, which I NEVER get. So far I'm very pleased with it. Just wish that HD PPV had something other than Freddy vs Jason or Secondhand Lions showing this week!

redwine

05-06-04, 11:52 PM

Now that 4113 can talk somewhat more freely, can you explain what negotiations there are with STARZ and Cinemax which prevent Charter from displaying the HD versions? We already pay a premium for these and from what you said there should be no technical or bandwidth reason to prevent us from enjoying Lord of the Rings in HD.

I understand the negotiations with local stations and even Discovery but the premium channels should be a slam dunk if there are no technical obstacles.

Comcast does it.

Robert Simandl

05-07-04, 12:06 AM

Hey Mattman,

Believe it or not, Freddy vs. Jason is actually a REALLY good flick if you like horror movies.

I only liked Nightmare on Elm Street 1, 3, and New Nightmare, and thought ALL the Jason movies sucked. So I popped FvsJ into the DVD player with very low expectations.

I was stunned.

Lots of detail about the origins of both killers (and a return appearance of Jason's mother), lots of creativity in the killings (seldom seen in the Freddy flicks and NEVER in the Jason flicks), and a 5.1 channel surround track worth cranking up LOUD.

If you like horror movies, give it a shot.

STL

05-07-04, 12:07 AM

Is our local NBC's digital feed having issues? I used to get a nice solid signal, but tonight it is bouncing between 0 and 36%. BTW, I have a Samsung TS160. All my other digital channels are fine and nothing has changed (as far as I know) is the past week or two -- or really for like 4+ months.

redwine

05-07-04, 12:32 AM

I still want the local news in HD just because they can do it. Dick Ford's wrinkles being the only obstacle.

Mattman

05-07-04, 12:41 AM

Alright Robert. I'll give F vs J a shot based on your recommendation. I do like horror movies although good ones are few and far between. I wish Hollywood could figure out a way to make some more good horror flicks. Se7en was probably the last scary movie that really got to me.

Robert Simandl

05-07-04, 07:14 AM

Don't get me wrong, Mattman. FvsJ is no SE7EN. But for what it is, it's surprisingly good.

jdonigan

05-07-04, 11:51 AM

I just found out that my 165 only displays the user menu from the HDTV/Component output, not the s-video, so it was going into and out of user menu just fine, but my projector was defaulting to s-video and I couldn't see it. (I also had mis-connected two of the component connections, which is why the projector was defaulting to s-video.)

So, mostly operator error. I still have to get up on the ladder and try to move the antenna and see if I can pick up UPN and WB.
(I do get Fox.)

Cam1

05-07-04, 02:15 PM

Is there anyone else in the area with the Samsung TS-360? If so are you having problems with the ABC OTA broadcast.

jedi35

05-07-04, 02:25 PM

jdonigan,

Glad you solved your menu issues, and sorry that I didn't throw that info your way (about only being able to see the menu through certain outputs). I also had to figure that out the hard way. Here's something else I had to figure out, but you may already know this. You can only see your upconverted sources that are plugged into the composite and s-video inputs through the component outputs, and nothing else.

redwine,

I don't think any of our local stations are doing the news in hd. I think the best we can get is a really nice looking 480p, but please correct me if I'm wrong. I know that I always see the "pillar box" aspect ratio during the news, or a zoomed picture to fill the screen. Voom and HDNet are the only providers I know of that show news(headline-style) in actual hd quality.

4113

05-07-04, 02:39 PM

Originally posted by jedi35
4113,

Can you shed some light on Charter's future plans with firewire? I've heard reports that I'm going to lose firewire if I get the hd pvr coming out, and that saddens me. I'm really enjoying the ability to record to my d-vhs vcr, and don't understand why I have to give that up if I want to go with the pvr. Is there something inherently wrong with archiving off a pvr that's not wrong with recording to dvhs? Thanks.

Jedi,

Future plans or firewire availability w/ DVR are much more in the control of the STB manufacturers. You may want to direct your question to someone at Motorola.

4113

Bill787

05-07-04, 02:39 PM

Originally posted by Cam1
Is there anyone else in the area with the Samsung TS-360? If so are you having problems with the ABC OTA broadcast.
Cam1-- I sent you a private message earlier this week talking about a "freeze frame" issue that some of us with Zenith and Panasonic receivers have had with 720P from ABC. This was seen in July 2003, and then some slight but unknown change in the 720P data stream cleared the problem until late last month. It's back. We believe this to be a design weakness in our receivers as most folks don't have the problem. As far as I know, Samsung was never suspected of having this weakness. If you are confident this isn't a signal strength problem and it ONLY occurs on DT-31 during network prime time, then you may have joined our unhappy club.

Bill.

4113

05-07-04, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by duihlein

How is Charter St Louis currently allocatting their HD Channels?
Has anyone noticed this effect here?

Dave

Dave,

There are four frequencies with three networks assigned to each one (one being the non-HD 480p FOX wide screen). Obviously, all twelve are not active as we all wait for more deals to get done with the programmers.

I do not want to speculate on whats happening in MN, there are many things it could be, i.e. poor design, headend equipment , cable plant, etc. Locally, Charter uses the Cherry Picker DM 6400 Statistical Multplexer. (http://www.terayon.com/tools/static_page/view.html?phase=show&id=1069204460&tool_id=100&cat_id=9.2.4) I would not expect to see such degradation here.

4113

4113

05-07-04, 03:03 PM

Originally posted by redwine
Now that 4113 can talk somewhat more freely, can you explain what negotiations there are with STARZ and Cinemax which prevent Charter from displaying the HD versions? We already pay a premium for these and from what you said there should be no technical or bandwidth reason to prevent us from enjoying Lord of the Rings in HD.

I understand the negotiations with local stations and even Discovery but the premium channels should be a slam dunk if there are no technical obstacles.

Comcast does it.

I don't know...

oby

05-07-04, 03:19 PM

Its very frustrating that Charter does not have Discovery HD (at least in St. Louis). People are speculating that its close, but who really knows. I recently emailed Charter, asking about Discovery HD. Their response was completely non-responsive, as they emailed me their cable rates.

4113

05-07-04, 03:38 PM

By the way group, regarding previous discussion regarding bandwidth in CATV, note that the DM 6400 that Charter uses in HD markets can generate the following configurations:

- 3 HDTV program streams in a 6 Mhz MUX
- 14-16 SDTV program streams in a 6 Mhz MUX
- 7 SDTV program streams and two HDTV program stream in a 6 Mhz MUX

This is a great point of debate when compared to the satellite industry and their vestigial-sideband modulation demonstrated below:

- 5-6 SDTV program streams in a 6 Mhz MUX
- 1 HD program streams in a 6 Mhz MUX

Is anyone familiar with other configurations for 8VSB?

The saddest thing here...imagine if the cable industry could get the customer service thing right and get the programming deals done. We would all be in HT heaven.

4113

4113

05-07-04, 03:46 PM

Originally posted by oby
Its very frustrating that Charter does not have Discovery HD (at least in St. Louis). People are speculating that its close, but who really knows. I recently emailed Charter, asking about Discovery HD. Their response was completely non-responsive, as they emailed me their cable rates.

Discovery HD was actually on during the entire beta test here. So it's technically there, you just cant see it. Again, waiting on the suits to get it done.

redwine

05-07-04, 05:06 PM

If Charter planned for 12 HD channels that means there are only 4 left. Huh? That is not enough even in the short run. IMO.

4113

05-07-04, 05:35 PM

Originally posted by redwine
If Charter planned for 12 HD channels that means there are only 4 left. Huh? That is not enough even in the short run. IMO.

On the other hand, it doesn't mean that more cannot be added in the future. :rolleyes:

duihlein

05-07-04, 05:38 PM

I guess we won't know if the equipment can handle 3 HDTV channels per frerquency here in St Louis until Charter activates some more channels.

From following the Minnesota thread it appears they have decided to back off from 3 per freq to 2 per freq. They have 4 QAM256 freq available so they will be capped at 8 channels for a while.

Dave

kjohnson

05-07-04, 09:02 PM

Hey all. I just joined the forum....I bought a Samsung SIR-T151 last week. Does anybody else have trouble receiving KNLC-DT (14) and WRBU-DT (47)? I live in the City of St. Louis and we get 26, 31, 35, 39 (all varieties), 43, and 56 fine. We have an indoor amplified antenna but we can't get KNLC or WRBU in HD. Any ideas?

I love KDNL's signal...Perfect...Now if Sinclair would grow a brain, all would be right with the world...LOL.

DroptheRemote

05-07-04, 09:15 PM

KJ,

I think it's reasonably rare for anyone to pull in the KNLC signal, but I base that largely on the fact that no one here ever mentions it. Of course, the lack of discussion might also be a function of the program content...

Anyway, neither KNLC nor WRBU is doing anything beyond sending out its analog transmission via the digital frequency -- they have no HD program presentation capabilities. Also, I think these are straight 480i feeds, with no attempt to clean up or line-double the NTSC video.

WRBU is difficult to receive because its transmission tower is an outlier from the main tower cluster for the other stations in town. It's pretty far south and west of the other towers and in all likelihood that explains why you aren't able to lock onto it.

Welcome to the forum and enjoy the HD programming.

kjohnson

05-07-04, 09:30 PM

Thanks Doug...I'll be popping around from time to time...I just got the reciever, and we haven't fully exploited it's potential yet...

I did notice that somebody at KMOV hit a switch, because now our program guide shows the whole 24 hour slate on KMOV-DT. Nobody else is doing this...Although, KDNL has a few programs that pop up on the guide.

Robert Simandl

05-07-04, 09:36 PM

Out here in St. Peters I have no problem locking in channel 46-1, for all the good it does. Like Doug said, it's 4x3 480i, just like the analog channel (which I oddly enough have no trouble picking up either).

Just remembered one good thing about picking up 46-1. It at least has stereo audio. The channel 46 analog feed as of about a year ago was still MONO! Haven't tried it recently to see if that's still the case.

As for KNLC-DT, I've never been able to pick up that channel, be it with my old Sony HD100 or my new HTL-HD. I'll have an HD Tivo in about a month (I'm waaaay down the Value Electronics preorder list) and I don't expect to pick up 24-1 with that model, either.

kjohnson

05-07-04, 10:07 PM

I thought it might be in stereo...Doesn't is suck in this day and age that station would be broadcasting in mono? Channel 58 (KPTN-LP) broadcasts in stereo, and it's HSN. What gives?

redwine

05-07-04, 11:18 PM

I just read the latest Consumer Reports magazine editorial about cable television. They recommend the a'la carte: pay per channel approach to cable offerings. They want the government to pass legislation to counteract the monopoly powers that deregulation has inflicted on the rates we pay. They say satellite is not real competition.

I agree something should be done. Cable should just deliver what is available via a little wire coming into your home. Cable should deliver EVERYTHING available. Content companies and cable companies should not be the same company. This is why we don't have EVERY possible HD channel already on cable.

redwine

05-07-04, 11:33 PM

Local HD news.

Does anyone know if any local news cast around the country is in HD? I would suspect some of the West coast stations would be doing it by now. HD cameras are not that expensive are they? If I ran a local station and wanted to enter the 21st century I would run my local news in HD. It would be good PR and not cost that much (if your anchors took care of themselves).

STL

05-08-04, 12:55 AM

Robert Simandl,
So is 5-1 coming in okay for you in St. Peters? I used to have trouble with it using my DTC-100, but once I got the TS-160 it's been good -- that is until this past Thursday evening.

4113

05-08-04, 03:12 AM

Originally posted by redwine
Local HD news.

Does anyone know if any local news cast around the country is in HD?

Red,

I know WRAL does thier news in HD. They were also the first station ever to be granted an HDTV license.

4113

Robert Simandl

05-08-04, 02:15 PM

kjohnson,

Channel 58 used to be a "jukebox channel" which showed music videos 24/7, with a 900 number where you'd pay 50 cents to make a request. It then switched to an over the air feed of MTV2. That's probably why it's stereo even though it shows nothing but HSN now.

46 used to show HSN before switching to UPN, which is probably why it never bothered with stereo sound til it got a DT feed.

STL,

Never had a problem with 5.1 on either the HTL-HD or the old HD100. As I type this though, I've not tried that channel since Thursday and I'm not in the family room to flip it on now. Something happen Thursday?

jedi35

05-08-04, 03:30 PM

I emailed Motorola with questions about firewire ports on their pvr units, and this was their response:

Thank you for your inquiry,

All PVR features are supported by your cable provider.

If you need to reply to this email, please include a brief restatement of
the issue for our reference.

Thank you,
Motorola Broadband Support
1-877-466-8646

Funny, they didn't even mention firewire in their reply. Now, this is 4113's response to my firewire question:

Jedi,

Future plans or firewire availability w/ DVR are much more in the control of the STB manufacturers. You may want to direct your question to someone at Motorola.

4113

Is it just me, or do I sense that I'm getting the runaround here?

On the subject of HD quality here on Charter, I'd have to say that the images I'm getting are some of the cleanest HD images I've seen. Charter's HD channels surpass what I've seen on Voom's original HD channels, and are about even with Voom's premium HD channels. Also, the OTA channels on Charter are equal with what's coming through my Sammy T165.

jedi35

05-08-04, 03:49 PM

Here are some observations I made while watching "10.5" earlier this week on 5-1:

We are presented with a natural disaster. Millions of people could die. A decision is made to use a nuclear device to save the day. Deep drilling is required to achieve a strategic location for the device. The drilling is quite difficult and drill bits are broken in the process. Once the drilling is completed, the ability to remote detonate the device is lost, and someone will have to stay behind and manually set the bomb off, thereby sacrificing his life. This hero has been seperated from his spouse for whatever reason, and is currently having issues with his son(or daughter). These issues are resolved in the moments before the bomb is set off. During chaotic scenes, the sound effects are lowered, and serene music is played while the video is set to slow motion. Finally, at the end there is a presidential speech of hope and encouragement.

Does this sound like 10.5 or Armageddon(or both)???

4113

05-08-04, 04:23 PM

Originally posted by jedi35
Is it just me, or do I sense that I'm getting the runaround here?

Obviously, you received a generic response from Customer Support at Motorola. You need someone in technical engineering or product development.

The Cable MSO's have no control over what Motorola puts in thier STB's though. They may have SOME influence, but Motorola controls the engineering of their own STB's. Cable co.'s just buy them.

Historically, they would just send units to be tested, ignore our feedback, deny problems and push the units out.

4113

jedi35

05-09-04, 02:04 AM

Thanks 4113. I'll probe Motorola a little further. I doubt that they'll respond with anything worth reporting, however.

John Kotches

05-09-04, 11:05 AM

4113,

At this point in time, Dish is only using 8PSK on their HD channels. They are at 2 HD channels/transponder for current delivery and are testing 3 HD/transponder on the 148 Satellite.

Cheers,

Sommers

05-09-04, 03:52 PM

On 4-1 during the PGA broadcast--in HD, I have long periods where the announcers voices disappear---it is really weird---I can here everything else--the birds, the crowd everything--it's as though the announcer's microphones are shut off. Toggling over to "regular" 4---off air--it is fine--the announcers can be heard.
Anybody else having this?----I can't imagine it's my set up--but not sure. No problem with the commercials!----
Thanks

Sommers

05-09-04, 08:29 PM

Same as last weekend---the announcer's voices started to broadcast--maybe half way through the tournament. Just checked on the "national forum" and someone in Buffalo had the same experience.
What is that all about?

Scott Tucker

05-09-04, 11:24 PM

Originally posted by Sommers
On 4-1 during the PGA broadcast--in HD, I have long periods where the announcers voices disappear---it is really weird---I can here everything else--the birds, the crowd everything--it's as though the announcer's microphones are shut off. Toggling over to "regular" 4---off air--it is fine--the announcers can be heard.
Anybody else having this?----I can't imagine it's my set up--but not sure. No problem with the commercials!----
Thanks

I had the same problem the last two weeks on 4-1. When i switch to DTV's east and west coast feeds there is sound, however. Call me weird, but i actually like it without the announcers. Kinda like being there. I would, however, like to know why KMOV's audio is doing this on the digital channel.

Scott

Joseph Clark

05-10-04, 02:57 AM

Originally posted by DroptheRemote
Joseph,

Do you know when VOOM decided to go with WM9? I had heard that the original plan was to switch to MPEG4 and that all the hardware they've sold was set up for that eventuality.

I know that MPEG4 uptake has been slowed significantly because the royalties are seen to be exorbitant. Maybe VOOM decided the same and when it wasn't able to extract better terms decided to go with Microsoft. I'm sure Microsoft would be pretty flexible as they're extremely eager to get a foothold in the professional codec marketplace.

I assume that VOOM could address any change by sending a firmware download.

Anyway, any chance you have any links that covers the VOOM move to WM9? I'd like to get more up to speed on this...

Doug,

Sorry to take so long to get back. It's the end of the semester and I haven't had much time. There's been quite a lot of news about WMV9 lately. Here's are a couple of links that talk about it.WM9 on Satellite Guys (http://www.satelliteguys.us/showthread.php?t=12304&page=1&pp=15) and More WMV News (http://www.windowsbeta.net/comments.php?id=631&catid=1) I've read different conjectures about the hardware side of things, but I think the box is already capable of decoding WMV9 , so a firmware upgrade seems likely. Microsoft has a bundle invested in this codec, so the strongarm tactics they've used in the past have no chance of working here. They'd be rejected outright. Apparently, their royalty demands are much more reasonable.

duihlein

05-10-04, 07:45 AM

Well my modified Dishplayer locked up again last night. We had a lot of programs that we lost (including the begining of Survivor which did not make my wife happy), but most impotantly we lost the E2 episode of Enterprise. If anyone out there has a copy (even on VHS) I would gladly make it worth their while.

On the same note, now I am once again being forced to decide. Upgrade the DP to a PVR-721, or move to Cable when their HD-DVR comes out. Based on what I've seen if Charter trys to cram 3 HD channels down each 256 QAM Freq, I am afraid of how the image will be impacted when 2/3 channels are showing live or fast panning images. I hope Dish does not try to further compress their channels unless they can compensate for the extra bandwidth needed in these circumstances.

Does anyone here have any experience with the PVR-721? Has it been fairly stable? I've looked around the other forums and it does seem to be the most stable of Dish's recievers, but that does not really say much.

Thanks,
Dave

abcward

05-10-04, 11:46 AM

4113 or anyone else...

Any word rumors on what new HD that Charter will be adding soon? I have heard Discovery being mentioned but nothing besides that - any guesses on what other channels Charter is actively negotiating to add?

THX

Bruce

STL

05-10-04, 12:52 PM

Originally posted by Robert Simandl
Never had a problem with 5.1 on either the HTL-HD or the old HD100. As I type this though, I've not tried that channel since Thursday and I'm not in the family room to flip it on now. Something happen Thursday? I used to get a nice solid signal with out local NBC's digital station 5-1, but this past Thursday (5/6) it started bouncing between 0 and 36%. The last time I watched it (the previous Thursday on 4/29) it was fine. BTW, I have a Samsung TS160. All my other digital channels are fine and nothing has changed recently so that makes me wonder if something happened with the signal itself.

Sommers

05-10-04, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by Scott Tucker
I had the same problem the last two weeks on 4-1. When i switch to DTV's east and west coast feeds there is sound, however. Call me weird, but i actually like it without the announcers. Kinda like being there. I would, however, like to know why KMOV's audio is doing this on the digital channel.

Scott

Yes, last weekend---I thought it was somekind of experiment---and found it interesting for about 5 minutes THEN I wanted the talking heads back.
Yesterday, the announcers came on around 4PM and stayed on for the rest of the broadcast.
What is this all about? Is it a KMOV problem?--Network?---are me and Scott the only two who experienced this (or are we the only two PGA fans)?

StLouisRod

05-10-04, 01:10 PM

Originally posted by Sommers
Yes, last weekend---I thought it was somekind of experiment---and found it interesting for about 5 minutes THEN I wanted the talking heads back.
Yesterday, the announcers came on around 4PM and stayed on for the rest of the broadcast.
What is this all about? Is it a KMOV problem?--Network?---are me and Scott the only two who experienced this (or are we the only two PGA fans)?

It wasn't just you two! I started watching the PGA tourny around 3:50, and heard no announcers (just background music) until sometime after 4:00. It was strange seeing the announcer's "pen marks" on the screen as they critiqued swings in slo-mo without hearing what they meant by the scribbles :confused: .

jdonigan

05-10-04, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by duihlein
Well my modified Dishplayer locked up again last night. We had a lot of programs that we lost (including the begining of Survivor which did not make my wife happy), but most impotantly we lost the E2 episode of Enterprise. If anyone out there has a copy (even on VHS) I would gladly make it worth their while.

...
Thanks,
Dave

Can you play DVD-R? If so, I can do that.

duihlein

05-10-04, 01:38 PM

Can you play DVD-R? If so, I can do that.

Why yes I can. Please PM me.

Thanks a bunch!!

sconstan

05-10-04, 03:15 PM

Charter HD box question:

I currently have Dish Network and one of the features of their tuner is the VCR blaster. Basically it allows me to select a program to record from the program guide and it will start the VCR recording at the given time. Does the HD box Charter uses support this type of feature?

Thanks,

Steve

Sommers

05-10-04, 03:32 PM

Originally posted by StLouisRod
It wasn't just you two! I started watching the PGA tourny around 3:50, and heard no announcers (just background music) until sometime after 4:00. It was strange seeing the announcer's "pen marks" on the screen as they critiqued swings in slo-mo without hearing what they meant by the scribbles :confused: .

So, what's happening on this?--Anybody??? It's obviously not all of our equipment mal functioning---is it KMOV or the network?

wmschultz

05-10-04, 04:24 PM

I think it is part of their 5.1. During the football season I had to turn up my center channel all the way and turn down my Fronts and Rears so I could hear the announcers. Unfortunately, no matter how loud I turned it up Phil Simms didn't get smarter.

abcward

05-10-04, 04:40 PM

Originally posted by wmschultz
I think it is part of their 5.1. During the football season I had to turn up my center channel all the way and turn down my Fronts and Rears so I could hear the announcers. Unfortunately, no matter how loud I turned it up Phil Simms didn't get smarter.

Yea I remember that issue as well - it was almost like you were in the stadium, lots of crowd noise and public address announcer....volume of tv announcers was very low.

Sommers

05-10-04, 04:57 PM

Don't believe that's it---as said---about 1/2 through---the audio was perfect--the announcers had suddenly turned on their mics.
Maybe it's a network issue--I posted this same Q on the national HDTV forum and a guy from Buffalo said he experienced the same thing.

Haderak

05-10-04, 06:01 PM

Dave to answer your questions:

1. I asusme your talking about the Regal at the St. Louis Mills. The digital presentations are for alternative content such as the Prince concert and the others you saw. It is not playing the feature film.

2. Eventually feature presentations will be in digital, but that won't be until the industry rolls out digital cinema, and it won't be on what your seeing currently.

3. They are using high end LCD projectors. That is why you don't see anything about it when you do searches for DLP.

The Prince concert for example was great, it looked and sounded great.

Originally posted by Dave Beebe
I saw this is today's Post Dispatch:

I then went to the St. Louis Mills Cinema website for movie times this link (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/editpost.php?s=&action=editpost&postid=3592861) and saw that they have some other "live" broadcast events planned. I next went to the Texas Instruments DLP website and they didn't list any DLP cinemas in the area.

This is the first I've heard of something like this in the St. Louis area. The big AMC 25 in the Chicago suburb of Naperville was the closest digital projection theater to the St. Louis area.

When did the cinema at St. Louis Mills start doing digital presentations?
Are they going to start doing movies in digital projection?
What technology are they using? They're not using TI's DLP.

While I know this isn't truly home theater and HDTV I figured that many St. Louis HT/HDTV enthusiasts would be fans of digital projection technology at the theater. (The rare times that we now go since we have our HDTVs)

jedi35

05-11-04, 03:20 AM

sconstan,

The Charter HD box does have an IR Blaster port on the back, and my info menu shows that it is active. However, I can't find a menu feature that allows the user to setup vcr control for recording. Perhaps that's coming in a future software upgrade.

abcward

05-11-04, 10:29 AM

...been slow in here lately... someone come up with a hot topic :)

dweebe

05-11-04, 10:45 AM

Originally posted by abcward
...been slow in here lately... someone come up with a hot topic :)

Maybe when Charter introduces a new HD channel or the Moxi/Motorola DVR.

abcward

05-11-04, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by Dave Beebe
Maybe when Charter introduces a new HD channel or the Moxi/Motorola DVR.

Sounds good, guess we'll talk in November then.....maybe.

sconstan

05-11-04, 11:40 AM

Originally posted by jedi35

The Charter HD box does have an IR Blaster port on the back, and my info menu shows that it is active. However, I can't find a menu feature that allows the user to setup vcr control for recording. Perhaps that's coming in a future software upgrade.

Thanks for the response jedi. Actually, I was only contacting Charter just to get pipeline since it is finally available in the city and the rep gave me the sales pitch; $87 for everything, pipeline, full blown cable with all the premiums and HD through the end of the year. But if there is not a similar way to record shows as I do with dish I think I am just going to wait for the DVR. For what its worth, the rep told me a July release for the DVR in St. Louis.

Steve

Sommers

05-11-04, 12:01 PM

The DVR---# HR10-250 is apparently now shipping (Direct TV)---however, people are waiting in line for it. On ebay---they are bidding it up over MSRP.
FYI

Sommers

05-11-04, 12:04 PM

Sorry--your a Charter fan---as I now see.
IMHO--I'd look at Direct TV now with this new box--I'm paying about $45 a month (obviously no broadband--but you can get that from SWB for $26.99 a month)--the Direct pkig is total choice PLUS the HD package (ESPN-HD, HD net etc)---don't get HBO etc--
FYI

abcward

05-11-04, 12:34 PM

sounds like his Charter deal is better than your DirecTV/SWB deal imho. All the channels including premium movies plus cable internet is substantially faster... $87 is a steal too - I pay more than that.

sconstan

05-11-04, 12:39 PM

I am not necessarily a Charter fan, but you forgot to add in the $999 for the HD-Tivo unit compared to $10 a month for the Charter DVR, hard to justify the price difference. Also, I am a legacy SWB DSL user so I am stuck at $49.95/month for sub par service. And unfortunately the lobbyists made the law so I have to cancel DSL with one provider before I can sign up with another so who knows how long I would be without broadband.

Steve

Sommers

05-11-04, 12:43 PM

ON Sjust call them up and tell them you want the $29.99 rate---I was at $50 too---simple to do and get

sconstan

05-11-04, 12:48 PM

Do you need some sort of commitment for that rate?

Sommers

05-11-04, 12:53 PM

I do not believe so---pretty sure not---they will not give you the new subscribe rate of $26.99 which does require a commit (maybe because of the modem)-------Their basic rate fell to $29.99--a no brainer just call 'em up and ask for it. Hey, this forum is good for more than chit chat.

Sommers

05-11-04, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by sconstan
I am not necessarily a Charter fan, but you forgot to add in the $999 for the HD-Tivo unit compared to $10 a month for the Charter DVR, hard to justify the price difference. Also, I am a legacy SWB DSL user so I am stuck at $49.95/month for sub par service. And unfortunately the lobbyists made the law so I have to cancel DSL with one provider before I can sign up with another so who knows how long I would be without broadband.

Steve

I trashed my cable many many years ago and vowed never to do business with them again. Been a happy Sat customer ever since.--Charter still thinks I owe them money (for research I investigated their offering/s last year and talked to them). I had started keeping track of how many service outages I had each month then deducting accordingly---they got tired of that routine after a while--so I said bye bye.
Do you loose signal every time it rains--still?

BradZ

05-11-04, 01:03 PM

Mattman got the new DirecTV HD Tivo. Maybe he'll chime in with an update. Is it still working well?

Sommers

05-11-04, 01:06 PM

People seem to be happy on the TIVo forum---sounds like one can be had for as low as $850 on some kind of deal---definitely now on my shopping list---probably wait awhile until it cools off (hopefully)--bag a low mileage one or a refurb late Summer--early Fall. Looks like a must own to me.

sconstan

05-11-04, 01:07 PM

If it rains hard I do lose the signal. I used to have cable too and canceled about 5 years ago. Hopefully since they did upgrades in the city to support pipeline the service will be improved.

Steve

Sommers

05-11-04, 01:10 PM

DSL is enough horsepower for me (I'm not yet into downloading movies etc)

4113

05-11-04, 10:58 PM

Originally posted by abcward
4113 or anyone else...
Any word rumors on what new HD that Charter will be adding soon?
THX
Bruce

I like to deal with facts, not rumors.
So far, no new factual info on HD...
4113

4113

05-11-04, 11:05 PM

Originally posted by jedi35
sconstan,

The Charter HD box does have an IR Blaster port on the back, and my info menu shows that it is active. However, I can't find a menu feature that allows the user to setup vcr control for recording. Perhaps that's coming in a future software upgrade.

The references in both the Menu and Diagnostics screens indicate that the IR hardware is physically installed, but Charter has no plans to support the IR. I do not know of any cable operator that has the software to support it.

4113

4113

05-11-04, 11:10 PM

Originally posted by abcward
Sounds good, guess we'll talk in November then.....maybe.

It may be slow, but some still have their pessimism to stay busy...:D
4113

wilkemp

05-12-04, 01:42 PM

I must say since I have had Charter even before the upgrade I have never lost service. When I lived in the county I probably lost service about once every 2 months.

4113

05-12-04, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by wilkemp
I must say since I have had Charter even before the upgrade I have never lost service. When I lived in the county I probably lost service about once every 2 months.

Wilkemp.
What part of the county were you in?
4113

wmschultz

05-12-04, 02:49 PM

When is the next STL AVS Party? I want to meet some of you people......

John Kotches

05-12-04, 03:11 PM

WM,

We've been talking about this off and on in the Area Meets. I have new main speakers coming in in the next week or so, and I'd like to get these bad boys broken in before I host another meet.

Cheers,

wilkemp

05-12-04, 03:54 PM

I was in the Spanish Lake area, most of the time when the signal went out Charter had to replace the box. Other than that the service was fine.

Tom Grooms

05-12-04, 04:40 PM

What are you getting John?

John Kotches

05-12-04, 10:10 PM

Tom,

Five of these (http://www.egglestonworks.com/fontaine_2.html) in Sapphire Blue Metallic :)

Cheers,

Tom Grooms

05-12-04, 10:53 PM

:eek: Beautiful!

What are you gonna power those monsters with?

Mattman

05-12-04, 11:57 PM

The problem with the HD TiVo not grabbing OTA HD material seems to have fixed itself (firmware upgrade perhaps?) since the TiVo did record 24 last night and Smallville tonight. Thus far I only have two complaints . . . a painfully slow guide and no simultaneous HD and SD output. I'm hoping to find some discrete codes for the output resolution. Other than those minor quibbles, I am loving having HD on demand. Because of my work hours I don't get to sit and watch a lot of the good stuff. Hopefully there will be HD Rams games this fall!
I'm also playing with a Home Theater Master MX-3000 and I'm very happy with that. Awesome remote! If any of you guys like the ProntoPro then you'll love this thing.

Kurt K

05-13-04, 01:28 AM

Originally posted by Sommers
.... I had started keeping track of how many service outages I had each month then deducting accordingly---they got tired of that routine after a while--so I said bye bye.
Do you loose signal every time it rains--still? Sounds like the same thing my parents did years ago with their cable. It would rain, loose signal and then the bill would be adjusted :)

I finally had to breakdown and get cable, but just for the pipeline. I've got DTV, for my channels.

John Kotches

05-13-04, 09:38 AM

Tom,

I'm leaning towards the Edge Amp G4.5 (http://www.edgeamp.com/g45.html) that I have in for review at this time. This will make me break my word though, since I said my next amp would be digital :-)

They aren't power house amps (100 wpc/8 ohms) but given the size of the room and the sensitivity of the Fontaine IIs (90dB/1w/1m anechoic) I shouldn't run into any issues hitting the SPL I'm looking for.

If you'd like, once they're settled in, you're welcome to come over and give 'em a listen.

Cheers,

jedi35

05-13-04, 12:54 PM

I live in Fergusen near the airport, and have had analog Charter cable long before the upgrade. Now I have HD, digital, analog, and pipeline. I don't remember my cable going out at all very much at any time. It was out for about a week while we were being upgraded, and for a few hours a few days ago. However, when it rains heavily, Voom and Directv cut out, and I switch to cable and keep on watching.

Here is something that puzzles me. When watching OTA dtv(Samsung T165 or Voom), I understand that planes often disrupt my antenna signal by flying throught my reception path(why do they do that???). What I don't understand is why I get the same thing with my Charter OTA stations when they are coming over the cable. There's no nearby antenna involved to get these 3 stations, right?? Why are planes messing them up? 4113?

wilkemp

05-13-04, 03:39 PM

Al Qaeda?

DroptheRemote

05-13-04, 03:47 PM

Jedi,

At last report, Charter was acquiring OTA digital/HD stations via an antenna, rather than the more costly fiber link that would be required.

What is strange is that this happens to Charter at the same time as it's happening to you. That would indicate that Charter's antenna is either nearby you, or at least along the same line of sight.

jedi35

05-13-04, 07:00 PM

Doug, you're probably right, but I think I like the Al Qaeda explanation better.

4113, do you know exactly where the OTA antenna is for Charter?

redwine

05-13-04, 11:36 PM

Al Qaeda controls Charter. That explains everything.

oby

05-14-04, 07:38 AM

Charter just added an exciting new channel (not hd)--something called..Lifetime Women Real Stories Network/ Channel..or something like that.

oh boy , oh boy.

Guess there were more requests for this channel than Discovery HD, ABC-HD, Starz-HD, etc., etc., and etc.

4113

05-14-04, 11:20 AM

Originally posted by jedi35
Why are planes messing them up? 4113?

There is probably an ingress issue in the area. You need a tech to check for leakage in the area.

4113

wmschultz

05-14-04, 11:43 AM

I know there is at least on Voom Subscriber in this thread...So..I have a question.

My DirecTV dish is pointed at like 195-205 degrees. I know that Vooms Satellite is at 61.5 degrees, so what I am trying to find out is what direction would I have to point the Voom dish. Could I just subract about 40 degrees from my 195 to figure it out???

The reason why I am asking is that I can not look at www.lyngsat.com from where I am at right now and I am trying to determine where I need to have the dish put.

Thanks.

4113

05-14-04, 11:55 AM

Originally posted by DroptheRemote
That would indicate that Charter's antenna is either nearby you, or at least along the same line of sight.

Nope, the antennas are on Dielman Industrial in Olivette.

4113

05-14-04, 12:01 PM

Originally posted by oby
Charter just added an exciting new channel (not hd)--something called..Lifetime Women Real Stories Network/ Channel..or something like that.

oh boy , oh boy.

Guess there were more requests for this channel than Discovery HD, ABC-HD, Starz-HD, etc., etc., and etc.

Oy Vey...
Television entertainment is a business that involves deals beyond requests from the viewers. It's unfortunate, but true.

dweebe

05-14-04, 12:24 PM

Originally posted by oby
Charter just added an exciting new channel (not hd)--something called..Lifetime Women Real Stories Network/ Channel..or something like that.

oh boy , oh boy.

Guess there were more requests for this channel than Discovery HD, ABC-HD, Starz-HD, etc., etc., and etc.Originally posted by 4113
Posted by 4113
Oy Vey...
Television entertainment is a business that involves deals beyond requests from the viewers. It's unfortunate, but true.

Probably got forced down Charter's throat as a package deal.

alsat

05-14-04, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by wmschultz
I know there is at least on Voom Subscriber in this thread...So..I have a question.

My DirecTV dish is pointed at like 195-205 degrees. I know that Vooms Satellite is at 61.5 degrees, so what I am trying to find out is what direction would I have to point the Voom dish. Could I just subract about 40 degrees from my 195 to figure it out???

The reason why I am asking is that I can not look at www.lyngsat.com from where I am at right now and I am trying to determine where I need to have the dish put.

Thanks.

wmschultz:

Standing behind the dish antenna, the VOOM location at 61.5 WL is roughly 40 degrees to the left (east) of the DirecTV 101 WL location.

jedi35

05-14-04, 04:50 PM

4113,

I need a course in Ingress for Dummies. Could you explain what ingress issues are, and what it means to have a leak in my area? Thanks.

jedi35

05-15-04, 02:07 PM

I just had a wonderful late morning lunch with fellow St. Louis board member Robert Simandl. How nice to meet a like-minded person, have good food, excellent conversation, and walk away with some cool Enterprise episodes taped in stereo. Thanks Bob!!

Robert Simandl

05-15-04, 03:11 PM

Hey Jedi, when and if my frigging preordered HD DirecTivo gets here, feel free to stop by and we'll watch those Enterprise episodes in HD... or as close to it as 46-1 ever gets anyway! :D

How do those Enterprises look on your system?

mikesweeney

05-16-04, 03:02 PM

hello, this is my first post.

I was curious, what kind of outputs do the charter HDTV receivers have? I'd rather ask you guys than deal with charter reps.

(my cable internet has been acting up as of recent. grrrr.)

Tom Grooms

05-16-04, 03:15 PM

optical digital audio, DVI and component

4113

05-16-04, 06:45 PM

Originally posted by jedi35
4113,
I need a course in Ingress for Dummies. Could you explain what ingress issues are, and what it means to have a leak in my area? Thanks.

Ingress = External RF signals entering the closed circuit cable system

Egress = Cable RF signals exiting the closed circuit cable system

Most ingress and egress issues are caused by damaged shielding, inferior cables, poor connections, poorly shielded equipment, cable theft or even a splitter with an open port.

The most common symptom is bad lower channels. We have all seen this before and it is commonly blamed on the cable company. In reality, most of the time it is the subscribers own doing. Being the most common service call, most good techs know to check for inferior cables behind the TV first. This is where most subscribers have installed push on style cables with extremely poor shielding. What is happening is the poorly shield cables act as antenna's. This causes the television to receive two KTVI signals for example. One from the cable company and one from the OTA source. Most do not see this interference above channel 13 because there are no competing local analog television signals above 13 or so.

Of course there are other frequencies that can interfere. Imagine all the transmissions between 54 Mhz and 1 Ghz that CATV is simultaneously broadcasting on in their closed circuit system. This is why the shield is so important.

After inferior cables, typically you would look to loose fittings or damage to the shield. The damage can be caused by squirrels chewing on the cable (more common that most realize), trees rubbing on aerial drop cables, subscribers digging and cutting into their underground cable and even subscribers cutting into the cable on the side of the house with a weed trimmer. I have seen all of this before and all can easily cause ingress.

I also mentioned an open port on a splitter. Yes this can cause ingress or even a reflected signal. If you have a 4 way splitter and you only have three outlets, replace the splitter with a 3-way.

You may say, "But wait, I buy good cables...I have a new drop...etc." This does not mean your neighbor is not causing ingress problems. Remember, because CATV has the unique ability to broadcast on the same frequencies as other sources, it must maintain a closed circuit. So, if your neighbor ran his own outlet with cheap coax intended for antennae service, the ingress could be back-feeding into your home. This also goes for the damage discussed earlier and even cable theft.

When I used to work service up north, the theft was horrible...so were the pictures. It was an easy way to find cable thieves. We would just ride through a neighborhood with a leakage meter. The meter has a di-pole antennae and is tuned to find a carrier that is inserted at the headend. When it sees the carrier, the meter makes a tone. By adjusting the sensitivity, you can narrow the leakage to the house, the fitting, splitter, or the outlet with the cheap Radio Shack coax. This is true even for paying customers who try to save a few bucks by installing their own Radio Shack VHF/UHF splitter and cable.

Now, I would like to address your situation specifically....

It is interesting that this happens only when the aircraft fly over. It does'nt surprise me, but it is interesting. Maybe the planes are reflecting the signal momentarily. Either way, you still have ingress somewhere.

If I were answering a service call on your issue and I seen that your were also running OTA, I would be suspicious of your components (this is assuming the basics above were ruled out.) It is very possible that the ingress is coming right through your antenna and into the cable side of your setup.

I would completely disconnect the antennae and check for the problem again. If it goes away, I would reconnect it and start a process of elimination by bypassing each component in your setup, one at a time, and checking for the problem each time. Of course you will have to incorporate this with the landing sequence of the air traffic...

I hope this answers some questions and hopefully will put you on the road to solving your problem.

Let me know what you find. Good luck.

4113