A New World Record? Blu-ray & HD DVD Hacked!

This is just too delicious, if true. The paranoid and overzealous Hollywood studios and their software company partners spent literally man-centuries in an effort to make the new HD disc formats more secure than their leaky dike brethren, the original DVD.

Better living through technology (but not as THEY planned it for us...).

From today's TV Predictions newsletter:
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The new HDTV DVDs are intended to be pirate-proof, but a anonymous hacker says so much for the best of intentions.

An Internet poster dubbed "Muslix64" said yesterday that he has unlocked the encryption system for the Blu-ray and HD-DVD high-def discs. The encryption prevents the discs from being copied, which would stop illegal distribution and sale.

The system, known as the Advanced Access Content System, was designed by several leading technology companies, including Microsoft, Intel, Sony and Toshiba.

But Muslix64 yesterday posted a video at a hacker site that shows the decryption codes and explains how to copy certain discs, including Stanley Kubrick's Full Metal Jacket.
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A New World Record? Blu-ray & HD DVD Hacked!

The new HDTV DVDs are intended to be pirate-proof, but a anonymous hacker says so much for the best of intentions.

An Internet poster dubbed "Muslix64" said yesterday that he has unlocked the encryption system for the Blu-ray and HD-DVD high-def discs. The encryption prevents the discs from being copied, which would stop illegal distribution and sale.

The system, known as the Advanced Access Content System, was designed by several leading technology companies, including Microsoft, Intel, Sony and Toshiba.

But Muslix64 yesterday posted a video at a hacker site that shows the decryption codes and explains how to copy certain discs, including Stanley Kubrick's Full Metal Jacket.
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Aww...better get ready for Image Constraint Token = ON

-Matt

StockInv,

HD Sports Guide has the Mizzou game listed in 1080i on CBS at 1:00pm CST.

Aww...better get ready for Image Constraint Token = ONDon't think that would accomplish anything, as that is only intended for constraining the image quality of the analog outputs.

If it's true that that digital front door is wide open, why would anyone waste any time trying to break in through the analog side?

Don't think that would accomplish anything, as that is only intended for constraining the image quality of the analog outputs.

If it's true that that digital front door is wide open, why would anyone waste any time trying to break in through the analog side?

True, but you are talking about the "logic free" MPAA and film industry. :p

Anyone having any issues with ESPN-HD via Charter tonight? My has been skipping/pixeling all night. Could hardly watch the bowl game that was on. No issues with other HD channels or any SD that I could find either.

I watched on D* and it was flawless. Good games last night.

Scott

I was watching Criminal Minds and Shark last night. I never watched either during the regular season. Both programs were in 4:3 format for the first segment of each program. It may have been the network but I was wondering if it was someone asleep at the switch again.

I forgot to add that I have been receiving 4-1 just fine and the signal strength test was near 90 and had audio drop-outs, then a brief pixelization a couple of times.

Aww...better get ready for Image Constraint Token = ON

-Matt

Awe man, I finally invest in HD-DVD this week and it looks like my component out may be in jeopardy of down rezing. :( Oh well, at least I only invested $186 for the player, and yesterday Best buy gave me $64 back as a price match to a CC coupon which means my net cost is $122. :) Regardless, I hope they don't start messing with image constraints.

Scott

I received a card for 10% off a purchase of $50 or more at CC. It's good until 1/15/07. If anyone wants it, PM me with your mailing address and I'll pop it in the mail. Not valid on iPod, Bose, Polk, Veladyne, Oakley, Disney, Verizon, Sharper Image, delivery fees, clearance items.

While it might be a spite-worthy gesture for the film industry to start using the image constraint token on analog outputs, it doesn NOTHING to fix the problem of being able to make successive generations of perfect digital copies with copy protection removed.

It a disc's copy protection has been removed, and there's no problem in making a copy, why in the world would anyone mess around with trying to make copies via the analog outputs. But let's take this a step further -- IF the studios are able to downrezz the digital outputs and they opt for that solution they're still not addressing the problem -- they're just ****ing with our ability to enjoy the product the way it was intended to be used.

If it comes to that, they might as well shut down the Blu-ray and HD DVD pressing plants, because they'd be spending a huge amount of money in manufacturing, distributing and promoting HD discs that were no better than legacy DVD.

Knife? Check.

Nose? Check.

Face? Uh oh.

What's ironic here is the effort, money and angst invested in trying to control something that has little scope for long-term control and relatively little upside anyway. The percentage loss for piracy for Hollywood is only a little more than twice as large as the percentage losses incurred by traditional retail businesses from "physical shoplifting."

Hollywood would be much better off figuring out how to remove the incentives for people to make or buy illegal copies, rather than trying to throw an unlikely Hail Mary pass that ends copying forever and ever, amen. Pricing, particularly in developing countries where copying is the biggest issue, would likely accomplish more than the most elaborate technology solution.

Awe man, I finally invest in HD-DVD this week and it looks like my component out may be in jeopardy of down rezing. :( Oh well, at least I only invested $186 for the player, and yesterday Best buy gave me $64 back as a price match to a CC coupon which means my net cost is $122. :) Regardless, I hope they don't start messing with image constraints.

Scott

You got the XBox add-on, right? I saw the Toshiba A1 for sale at Best Buy yesterday for $299 on clearance.

I'm the last one to go to for predictions, but I don't think I'd worry too much about the ICT right now. If the digital protection has been compromised, the MPAA has a lot more to worry about than analog copies, which is what the ICT is supposed to deal with.

Here's the first line of that scene, if they asked me to write it. "Forget that hole in his heart, you fool!!! We've got to stop this gushing paper cut."

Edit: just saw Doug's response. Nevermind.

If they'd make decent movies, ppl wouldn't have to download so much crap. I'd never pay theater prices to see stuff like "Accepted." But its fun to watch .... "at a friends house."

Here was the thread detailing the article Doug mentioned for anyone more interested on the how's of it:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=119871

You got the XBox add-on, right? I saw the Toshiba A1 for sale at Best Buy yesterday for $299 on clearance.

I'm the last one to go to for predictions, but I don't think I'd worry too much about the ICT right now. If the digital protection has been compromised, the MPAA has a lot more to worry about than analog copies, which is what the ICT is supposed to deal with.

Here's the first line of that scene, if they asked me to write it. "Forget that hole in his heart, you fool!!! We've got to stop this gushing paper cut."

Edit: just saw Doug's response. Nevermind.

Yes, I got the Xbox add-on at Best buy. I watched my 2nd entire HD-DVD last night. Although Goodfella's is one of my all time fav's, I was not overly impressed by the picture quality. Great flick though.

Scott

BTW, Here is the link to the coupon I used to get $40 off a purchase of $199 or more. I gave it to Bestbuy and the girl gave my $64 cash as a price match. Not sure how she does her math, but I wasn't going to try to prove that she was wrong. Anyone buy more than $200 at bestbuy, american, Ultimate lately? they will all price match + an additonal %. Pretty good deal.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=71225

Scott

Does anyone know what the anchor alignment on KSDK will be now?

A New World Record? Blu-ray & HD DVD Hacked!

This is just too delicious, if true. The paranoid and overzealous Hollywood studios and their software company partners spent literally man-centuries in an effort to make the new HD disc formats more secure than their leaky dike brethren, the original DVD.

__________________________________________________________


Here's an update from thedigitalbits.com. Apparently this "crack" may be short lived.

http://thedigitalbits.com/#mytwocents
==================================================
Well, we've been doing a bit of research on the reported AACS crack this afternoon... and we've learned that there's good news and (just maybe) bad news. Our old friend Andy Patrizio sent over some links for further reading (thanks, Andy!), and it seems that the whole system hasn't been cracked... just a tiny part of it. According to tech blogger Chris Lanier, this all started because the current version of Cyberlink's PowerDVD player leaves the title keys for individual HD-DVD titles unprotected for a short time during the playback operation. A memory dump allows those keys to be revealed, and then the keys must be fed into the BackupHDDVD utility in order to allow those specific discs to be copied. Cyberlink is expected to release a patch/update which will end this vulnerability. The newly-updated software will use new device keys, and the old version's device key will be revoked, meaning that the old version of the software won't work anymore (after it receives the revocation orders, which would arrive on new HD-DVD movie software). So AACS itself hasn't been compromised - just the title keys to select titles. That's the good news.

Here's the bad news... those select titles (which so far include Warner's Full Metal Jacket and Universal's Van Helsing among others) could now be considered open and unprotected. The studios involved COULD decide to revoke the title keys on those specific unprotected HD-DVD discs, rendering them unplayable on all HD-DVD players, both software and hardware. Doing so would mean that those of you who already own the discs would have to work with the studios somehow to obtain replacement discs with new (and still valid and protected) title keys. The market is certainly small enough that the studios could do this without TOO much problem, though I don't imagine anyone involved would relish the hassle. We're making inquiries now to see what happens next and hopefully, we'll know more next week.

So basically, what we're likely about to witness is the AACS system demonstrating its own deliberately built-in ability to take a bullet and self-heal for the very first time in a real world situation. Fascinating.
======================================================


Maybe the studio's are smarter than we thought. My guess is Cyberlink has been getting hit buy the movie studios to fix this ASAP.

Dave

Mizzou lost at the end of the fourth...39-38...

Does anyone know what the anchor alignment on KSDK will be now?

I heard that Dianne Lane will take Karen's spot.

What a bummer ending for Mizzou.....Why is it I think of the Cubs when I watch their teams? :p

Mizzou lost at the end of the fourth...39-38...

Thanks, guess I won't what I tivo'd. :mad:

Scott

Thanks, guess I won't what I tivo'd. :mad:

Scott
Hum....me either....I was just getting ready to watch it....I asked about KSDK cus I didn't want to watch the news first :(

Here's an update from thedigitalbits.com. Apparently this "crack" may be short lived.

http://thedigitalbits.com/#mytwocents
==================================================
...here's the bad news... those select titles (which so far include Warner's Full Metal Jacket and Universal's Van Helsing among others) could now be considered open and unprotected. The studios involved COULD decide to revoke the title keys on those specific unprotected HD-DVD discs, rendering them unplayable on all HD-DVD players, both software and hardware. Doing so would mean that those of you who already own the discs would have to work with the studios somehow to obtain replacement discs with new (and still valid and protected) title keys. The market is certainly small enough that the studios could do this without TOO much problem, though I don't imagine anyone involved would relish the hassle. We're making inquiries now to see what happens next and hopefully, we'll know more next week...
======================================================Again, this is good illustration of how the copy-protection solution is disproportionate to the problem. Just wait until the first time a studio "neuters" a disc that a large number of consumers have already paid for. While I understand that when you "buy" a movie, you're actually only paying for a license that allows you to use that movie under certain conditions, that's not how it's going to play with the average user (or likely in the media).

This is the worst sort of public relations fiasco -- treating all of your customers like they're criminals.

Hum....me either....I was just getting ready to watch it....I asked about KSDK cus I didn't want to watch the news first :(

Yeah, I'm sure he did not want to spoil it for anyone and was only trying to be informative. For future reference use a "spoiler alert." :)

Scott

Soylent Green is made of people. It's people.

Soylent Green is made of people. It's people.Soylent Green is real.
Ya gotta do it right if you're gonna do it at all.

Hum....me either....I was just getting ready to watch it....I asked about KSDK cus I didn't want to watch the news first :(

Watch it anyway...very entertaining. They called it the best Sun Bowl game ever...especially if you are not a Mizzou fan and like offense and the golden girls. Why does it always seem that they get the bad offical calls. BTW, I am not a Missou fan.

Watch it anyway...very entertaining. They called it the best Sun Bowl game ever...especially if you are not a Mizzou fan and like offense and the golden girls. Why does it always seem that they get the bad offical calls. BTW, I am not a Missou fan.

I am a long time MIZZOU fan. Same old Tigers.....snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.....UGH.

After getting frustrated not being able to pick up the PBS 9.1,2,3,4 OTA but able to pick up all other OTA HD signals, I called Charter to ask about the HD service the offer. The salesman on the phone (using the word salesman loosely; he didnt seem to want to make a sale...) could not tell me what STB Charter uses for HD. Can someone provide me with the manufacture and model number?

Also, they must have been a lot of people with new HD sets this xmas / 4th quarter. I'm on the wait list till Feb.

thanks

Brent

Brent,

The situation may have changed but as far as I'm aware Charter uses either a Motorola DCT-5100 or a DCT-6200 for HD receivers. Charter also offers an HD-capable DVR (MOXI) that makes use of Motorola hardware, but I don't know the model number.

Charter has been operating with HD hardware shortages for at least the last 6 months. The problem may partly be high demand, but there is plenty of evidence that Charter is financially constrained in making capital purchases and is more focused on investing what it can spend for customers adding telephony/Internet services. HDTV services are not an apparent priority.

Also, in reading anecdotal reports here from Charter customers who have been on the HD or MOXI waiting lists in the past, you need to check in with Charter regularly on your waiting list status as followthrough from their end seems, at best, spotty.

FWIW, if your only issue is receiving PBS in HD OTA, I'm not sure that it's worth paying Charter (or anyone else) to address. PBS's HD feed is severely compromised from a picture quality standpoint due to the use of three multicast channels. On the other hand I understand there may be PBS HD programs or other PBS channel programming that you wish to watch, regardless of picture quality. Just want to make sure you understand that if it's primarily PBS HD programming that you're after, it's HD in name only.

Maybe you've already been through this, but I'd look again at the options for tweaking youir antenna placement or other possible antenna-related fixes. If you are getting all other STL digital stations other than PBS, the source of your problem is likely multipath interference, so it may be worth trying different placement or an antenna that it is better at rejecting multipath signals. FWIW, I've personally seen reception of marginal channels come into line with others simply by moving a rooftop antenna a foot or so. But antenna reception is not an exact science and results will vary from location to location and by other factors.

Spoiler Alert:

"Rosebud."

;)

It's official, I am switching from Charter :mad: to Dish :) for HD. I can't wait NFL, ESPN2HD, ABC-HD...it's gonna be sweet. They guy's coming out Jan. 10th.


Anybody have AT&T Homezone? I already have ATT for phone and DSL and they offered this service to me. It's supposed to intergrate the DSL and the satelite, but I can't see how or why this would be benificial...about the the only thing they could tell me is that I could have caller ID appear on the TV screen...that doesn't seem all that great.

It's official, I am switching from Charter :mad: to Dish :) for HD. I can't wait NFL, ESPN2HD, ABC-HD...it's gonna be sweet. They guy's coming out Jan. 10th.
Anybody have AT&T Homezone? I already have ATT for phone and DSL and they offered this service to me. It's supposed to intergrate the DSL and the satelite, but I can't see how or why this would be benificial...about the the only thing they could tell me is that I could have caller ID appear on the TV screen...that doesn't seem all that great.
Jeff,
The 622 already has on-screen caller ID. You'll love the machine...it's great.
There is a whole other set of pay-for-use downloadable services through Homezone.

It is as you said, a DISH VIP622 connected to ATT's DSL.

Anybody have AT&T Homezone? I already have ATT for phone and DSL and they offered this service to me. It's supposed to intergrate the DSL and the satelite, but I can't see how or why this would be benificial...about the the only thing they could tell me is that I could have caller ID appear on the TV screen...that doesn't seem all that great.
I don't have it but since I work for AT&T, I've seen all the literature. Homezone basically gives you a media center capability rather than just a satellite receiver/dvr. In addition to TV, you can do music, photos, media sharing, program via the internet, etc.

I'm so mad at AT&T I'm lodging a consumer complaint against them. They dangled all kinds of offers to me if I switch my cell service to Cingular. I did and it's been a friggin' nightmare ever since. They slammed me with a more expensive phone service that included two (yes two) redundant long distance plans, they reversed/canceled a $120 refund they told me I could use to offset my $150 early termination fee with Sprint, and I have yet to see the rebates on my 2 RAZR phones I was promised after 60 days of service. Every time I call I get a different story, including "she wasn't supposed to make you that offer, and I'm sorry we can't give it to you after all."

And I did not misunderstand what they offered me. I made notes as I spoke to the original sales person and repeated back for confirmation everything I expected to get. Not to mention, each time I've talked to someone about it since then, they give me a different, conflicting story. Lies or ineptitude. Either way, it's unethical.

Do not trust any AT&T sales people. My resolution this year is to replace all my AT&T services with alternates from other companies, and to pursue my complaint against them with the Attorney General's office. :mad:

Last thing I'll do is pick up another AT&T service. I'm afraid of what would happen.

I'm so mad at AT&T I'm lodging a consumer complaint against them. They dangled all kinds of offers to me if I switch my cell service to Cingular. I did and it's been a friggin' nightmare ever since. They slammed me with a more expensive phone service that included two (yes two) redundant long distance plans, they reversed/canceled a $120 refund they told me I could use to offset my $150 early termination fee with Sprint, and I have yet to see the rebates on my 2 RAZR phones I was promised after 60 days of service. Every time I call I get a different story, including "she wasn't supposed to make you that offer, and I'm sorry we can't give it to you after all."

And I did not misunderstand what they offered me. I made notes as I spoke to the original sales person and repeated back for confirmation everything I expected to get. Not to mention, each time I've talked to someone about it since then, they give me a different, conflicting story. Lies or ineptitude. Either way, it's unethical.

Do not trust any AT&T sales people. My resolution this year is to replace all my AT&T services with alternates from other companies, and to pursue my complaint against them with the Attorney General's office. :mad:

Last thing I'll do is pick up another AT&T service. I'm afraid of what would happen.

That sucks - we get discounts with Cingular through work and I've used them for 3+ years now with no problems, even before the merger ... actually their customer support for my cell service improved after the merger.

That sucks - we get discounts with Cingular through work and I've used them for 3+ years now with no problems, even before the merger ... actually their customer support for my cell service improved after the merger.Opposite for me. I never had a single problem with SBC, other than unintelligible bills. I'm pretty unhappy with AT&T and I now distrust them so much I won't change my service at all unless it's to cancel it.

I'm so mad at AT&T I'm lodging a consumer complaint against them. They dangled all kinds of offers to me if I switch my cell service to Cingular. I did and it's been a friggin' nightmare ever since. They slammed me with a more expensive phone service that included two (yes two) redundant long distance plans, they reversed/canceled a $120 refund they told me I could use to offset my $150 early termination fee with Sprint, and I have yet to see the rebates on my 2 RAZR phones I was promised after 60 days of service. Every time I call I get a different story, including "she wasn't supposed to make you that offer, and I'm sorry we can't give it to you after all."

And I did not misunderstand what they offered me. I made notes as I spoke to the original sales person and repeated back for confirmation everything I expected to get. Not to mention, each time I've talked to someone about it since then, they give me a different, conflicting story. Lies or ineptitude. Either way, it's unethical.

Do not trust any AT&T sales people. My resolution this year is to replace all my AT&T services with alternates from other companies, and to pursue my complaint against them with the Attorney General's office. :mad:

Last thing I'll do is pick up another AT&T service. I'm afraid of what would happen.

I'm in the business and I've never seen any wireless carrier offer simultaneous equipment rebates AND buyout dollars to switch carriers. Especially for an individual line...... You'd be looking at a $300 credit!

Either you were sold a bill of goods or you misunderstood. My guess is that you were sold by an inexperienced sales clerk, who was probably a bit too anxious for the sale. How long has this been going on? You might be able to wiggle out of your contract, especially if you have the offer in any form of writing.

I'm in the business and I've never seen any wireless carrier offer simultaneous equipment rebates AND buyout dollars to switch carriers. Especially for an individual line...... You'd be looking at a $300 credit!

Either you were sold a bill of goods or you misunderstood. My guess is that you were sold by an inexperienced sales clerk, who was probably a bit too anxious for the sale. How long has this been going on? You might be able to wiggle out of your contract, especially if you have the offer in any form of writing.I did not misunderstand, I can assure you. I'm careful about negotiating services, etc. It's exactly why I took notes.

The inexperience of a sales clerk is absolutely no excuse. How can a consumer possibly even know that a sales person is offering something invalid? It's the seller's responsibility to be truthful to the consumer.

I don't plan to wiggle out of my contract. I plan to pursue a legal complaint against them, in the hopes they get punished for the way I've been treated.

And for you to say you're in the business, and then tell me in the same breath they don't do those kind of offers -- as if it's common knowledge -- just emphasizes my point. That's the problem -- copping out by implying I should know that policy as a consumer. I don't, and why should I? Frankly, I don't even care. If I am made an offer I accept, it's binding, and doesn't matter if the company making the offer made a mistake. They accepted my money, and changed the terms after that.

I did not misunderstand, I can assure you. I'm careful about negotiating services, etc. It's exactly why I took notes.

The inexperience of a sales clerk is absolutely no excuse. How can a consumer possibly even know that a sales person is offering something invalid? It's the seller's responsibility to be truthful to the consumer.

I don't plan to wiggle out of my contract. I plan to pursue a legal complaint against them, in the hopes they get punished for the way I've been treated.

And for you to say you're in the business, and then tell me in the same breath they don't do those kind of offers -- as if it's common knowledge -- just emphasizes my point. That's the problem -- copping out by implying I should know that policy as a consumer. I don't, and why should I? Frankly, I don't even care. If I am made an offer I accept, it's binding, and doesn't matter if the company making the offer made a mistake. They accepted my money, and changed the terms after that.

Dean, he never implied that it should be "common knowledge." He only stated that you either misunderstood or were sold a bill of goods. And then he went on the say that it was likely that fault of the salesperson. Anyway, I felt the need to play intermediary for some reason.

I do feel your pain. There is nothing worse than customer service type issues. Hope it all works out for you.

Scott

Dean, he never implied that it should be "common knowledge." He only stated that you either misunderstood or were sold a bill of goods. And then he went on the say that it was likely that fault of the salesperson. Anyway, I felt the need to play intermediary for some reason.

I do feel your pain. There is nothing worse than customer service type issues. Hope it all works out for you.

ScottOK, sorry. Maybe I did misinterpret his statements. :eek: I probably just need to stop steaming and venting about it. :(

And every time I call them, they're only interested in selling me DISH. Arrgghh!!!

STL HDTV Survey Results - Part 5: Rating HD Pay TV Channels

This fifth summary of the results of the "HDTV in St. Louis" viewer survey focuses on how local viewers rate the HD channels they receive through their primary Pay TV provider in the areas of HD Content, HD Picture Quality and HD Sound Quality. In compiling your responses, each of the three categories were weighted equally in order to create an overall rating for each channel.

As in the survey, the results are presented here by category -- General Interest Channels, Movie Channels, Sports Channels and VOOM Channels.

This section of questions was optional -- of those replying that they subscribed to a Pay TV service, roughly 80% of Charter subscribers (50) opted to rate individual HD channels, while just over 70% of DirecTV subscribers (34) and nearly 90% of DISH subscribers (13) rated individual channels. Because of the relatively small number of DISH customers participating in the survey, ratings for channels only available on DISH, such as the VOOM channels, may be skewed to some degree.

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q158/VideoSavant/14a-GeneralInterest-1.jpg

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q158/VideoSavant/14b-Movie.jpg

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q158/VideoSavant/14c-Sports.jpg

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q158/VideoSavant/14d-VOOM.jpg

Notes on the Results:

* Highest-Rated Overall HD Channels: HDNet (8.72 of 10), followed by Discovery HD Theater (8.62), HDNet Movies (8.18), HBO HD (8.03) and the ESPN HD (8.01) channels.

* Highest-Rated HD Content: Discovery (8.30), followed by HDNet (8.28), Equator HD (8.00), HBO (7.88) and ESPN (7.69).

* Highest-Rated Picture Quality: HDNet (8.96), Discovery (8.80), ESPN (8.20), Equator HD (8.00) and HBO (7.98).

* Highest-Rated Sound Quality: HDNet (8.91), Discovery (8.74), Rave HD (8,40), HDNet Movies (8.33), and HBO (8.22).

* Different Services, Different Criteria? There was some fairly interesting variations in how subscribers to the various services rated content and picture quality. For example, the average picture quality rating given by Charter subscribers was 7.90, while DirecTV and DISH averaged around 7.50. On HD Content, DISH subscribers averaged 7.46, while Charter averaged 7.09 and and DirecTV 6.82. Subscribers for each of the three Pay TV services were clustered right around 7.80 for average sound ratings.

For overall ratings, Charter and DISH averaged right around 7.60, while DirecTV subscriber ratings averaged 7.37.

* Overall Category Averages: HD Content, 7.07; HD Picture Quality, 7.60; HD Sound Quality, 7.79; and Composite Ratings, 7.45.

As always, I'd be interested any other comments or questions about this portion of the survey results, or any of the previous summaries.

NEXT: Your Favorite Programs and HD Wish Lists -- The next summary, probably not available until the first week of January, will provide a summary of your favorite programs in terms of picture and sound quality. In addition, we'll list the top HD programming or channels that you're not receiving that you'd like to have available.

Previous Summaries

Part 1: Survey Respondents Profile (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9075182&&#post9075182)

Part 2: Receiving Local Digital Stations (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9091629&&#post9091629)

Part 3: Digital Multicasting Opinions (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9127512&&#post9127512)

Part 4: Rating Your HD Pay TV Provider (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9157953&&#post9157953)

DISCLAIMER: AVS is in no way a party to this survey, apart from being a vehicle to promote the survey's availability and as an avenue to report back results. None of the questions or results should in any way be taken to represent the views or opinions of the management of AVS or its various partners.

OK, sorry. Maybe I did misinterpret his statements. :eek: I probably just need to stop steaming and venting about it. :(

And every time I call them, they're only interested in selling me DISH. Arrgghh!!!

LOL, your cracking me up. :)

Scott

We Interrupt Your Normal AVS Programming...

...for the following St. Louis housekeeping break:

In the past, we used to begin each month of the St. Louis discussion with an entirely new thread and usually that started with a cut/paste of basic resource information that is now buried back on the very first page of this discussion thread.

Because of its location, a lot of that general, introductory information about HDTV and OTA reception is now easily overlooked, especially with the discussion here stretching back more than 3 years and approaching 600 pages.

So, in order to this introductory information more accessible, I post an advisory/reminder note similar to this every couple of weeks. The idea is to make this general resource information more visible and easier to find for more readers.

With HDTV sales increasing every month, we're getting more and more newcomers here, which is a great thing to see. But like most of us when we took home our first HDTV, there's a huge amount to learn beyond where to point the remote and which buttons to push.

Hopefully, you'll find this information of some use...

Tower Maps, Your Satellite/Antenna Rights & Local Station Feedback (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=2995679&&#post2995679)

Using An Antenna to Receive Local HD Stations (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=2995718&&#post2995718)

Common Questions about HDTV (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=2995791&&#post2995791)

HD Programming Available in St. Louis (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8523674&&#post8523674)

Why Isn't KDNL-DT (ABC) Available via Charter? (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8072643&&#post8072643)

New! St. Louis Blues in HD Schedule (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8678636&&#post8678636)

2006 Survey Results: HDTV in St. Louis

Part 1: Profile of Survey Respondents (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9075182&&#post9075182)

Part 2: Local Digital Stations (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9091629&&#post9091629)

Part 3: Digital Multicasting (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9127512&&#post9127512)

Part 4: Customer Ratings for Charter, DirecTV & DISH HD Services (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9157953&&#post9157953)

Part 5: Customer Ratings for Pay TV HD Channels (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9315435&&#post9315435)

Finally, I want to remind everyone that you can access the St. Louis HDTV discussion here at AVS directly by using the shortcut URL that has been arranged.

The short-form URL also makes it very easy to remember and give the address to anyone you know who's just getting into HDTV.

The shortcut URL is: www.stlhdtv.info

I'm so mad at AT&T I'm lodging a consumer complaint against them. They dangled all kinds of offers to me if I switch my cell service to Cingular. I did and it's been a friggin' nightmare ever since. They slammed me with a more expensive phone service that included two (yes two) redundant long distance plans, they reversed/canceled a $120 refund they told me I could use to offset my $150 early termination fee with Sprint, and I have yet to see the rebates on my 2 RAZR phones I was promised after 60 days of service. Every time I call I get a different story, including "she wasn't supposed to make you that offer, and I'm sorry we can't give it to you after all."

And I did not misunderstand what they offered me. I made notes as I spoke to the original sales person and repeated back for confirmation everything I expected to get. Not to mention, each time I've talked to someone about it since then, they give me a different, conflicting story. Lies or ineptitude. Either way, it's unethical.

Do not trust any AT&T sales people. My resolution this year is to replace all my AT&T services with alternates from other companies, and to pursue my complaint against them with the Attorney General's office. :mad:

Last thing I'll do is pick up another AT&T service. I'm afraid of what would happen.

I am not surprised. This exact same thing happened to a friend of mine. They promised all sorts of things on the phone, then didnt deliver, and when she called them they made a bunch of excuses and simply said the customer service rep was not suppose to offer those things blah blah...sounds like this must be their new standard operating practice to screw people.

Doug, Thanks for the suggestions about my antenna....

One more question in regards to Charter HD for anyone. I was at my unlce's house tonight in St. Charles. He has Moxi/Charter HD with all the fixin's. I was really suprised when I tried to pull up Chan 4 HD and Cinemax HD. Both were not running and he said that it's been that way for a few days. Does anyone know of a problem with Charter in St. Charles?



Brent,

The situation may have changed but as far as I'm aware Charter uses either a Motorola DCT-5100 or a DCT-6200 for HD receivers. Charter also offers an HD-capable DVR (MOXI) that makes use of Motorola hardware, but I don't know the model number.

Charter has been operating with HD hardware shortages for at least the last 6 months. The problem may partly be high demand, but there is plenty of evidence that Charter is financially constrained in making capital purchases and is more focused on investing what it can spend for customers adding telephony/Internet services. HDTV services are not an apparent priority.

Also, in reading anecdotal reports here from Charter customers who have been on the HD or MOXI waiting lists in the past, you need to check in with Charter regularly on your waiting list status as followthrough from their end seems, at best, spotty.

FWIW, if your only issue is receiving PBS in HD OTA, I'm not sure that it's worth paying Charter (or anyone else) to address. PBS's HD feed is severely compromised from a picture quality standpoint due to the use of three multicast channels. On the other hand I understand there may be PBS HD programs or other PBS channel programming that you wish to watch, regardless of picture quality. Just want to make sure you understand that if it's primarily PBS HD programming that you're after, it's HD in name only.

Maybe you've already been through this, but I'd look again at the options for tweaking youir antenna placement or other possible antenna-related fixes. If you are getting all other STL digital stations other than PBS, the source of your problem is likely multipath interference, so it may be worth trying different placement or an antenna that it is better at rejecting multipath signals. FWIW, I've personally seen reception of marginal channels come into line with others simply by moving a rooftop antenna a foot or so. But antenna reception is not an exact science and results will vary from location to location and by other factors.

I am still trying to figure out if I have duihlein or my wife to blame for this. Ok, that sounded bad, but because of one of the two of them I have started looking at a new TV for one of our rooms. I am looking in the 42" to 50" (maybe slightly larger) range. I may have issuses with glare which I will check out. Please be patient as many of you know I am quite a novice still.

But I stopped at American and UE today and a few questions arose after my visits. First at American the sales guy that talked to us told me that the Panasonic Plasmas are requiring more repair calls than they should. I am not sure if I believe him, because he immediately steered us toward Hitachi and Toshiba models that cost nearly as much for a 42" as the Panny 50" plasma we were looking at. I just wondered if Doug or anyone else would want to comment on the repair/service comment.

I have looked online as well at the Panasonic plasmas. Is the only difference between the following 2 TVs the built in tuner?

http://www.americantv.com/elec/e_detail.html?xid=1167500099319373&sku=025506051

http://shop4.outpost.com/product/4777449?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG

What use do I have for the tuner if I am using a Dish HD receiver?

Another question I ran into was at UE. I was looking at the Samsung DLPs. I chose the Panny plasma and Sammy DLP based on Doug and others' suggestions. But my question came up when viewing a 56" Sammy DLP and a 60" Sammy DLP. The 60" was cheaper? The only difference I could find while browsing was the 56" listed LED display. Should this make that kind of difference?

Also I noticed the UE sales guys were really pushing their 1080p technology to everyone they talked to. How long will it be before it makes sense to spend the extra money for 1080p?

Thank you in advance to anyone taking the time to read and respond. And any other suggestions are welcome. I hope my questions/comments are not too naive.

Get it done now, while you still have the time....and strength ;)

I am still trying to figure out if I have duihlein or my wife to blame for this. Ok, that sounded bad, but because of one of the two of them I have started looking at a new TV for one of our rooms. I am looking in the 42" to 50" (maybe slightly larger) range. I may have issuses with glare which I will check out. Please be patient as many of you know I am quite a novice still.

But I stopped at American and UE today and a few questions arose after my visits. First at American the sales guy that talked to us told me that the Panasonic Plasmas are requiring more repair calls than they should. I am not sure if I believe him, because he immediately steered us toward Hitachi and Toshiba models that cost nearly as much for a 42" as the Panny 50" plasma we were looking at. I just wondered if Doug or anyone else would want to comment on the repair/service comment.

I have looked online as well at the Panasonic plasmas. Is the only difference between the following 2 TVs the built in tuner?

http://www.americantv.com/elec/e_detail.html?xid=1167500099319373&sku=025506051

http://shop4.outpost.com/product/4777449?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG

What use do I have for the tuner if I am using a Dish HD receiver?

Another question I ran into was at UE. I was looking at the Samsung DLPs. I chose the Panny plasma and Sammy DLP based on Doug and others' suggestions. But my question came up when viewing a 56" Sammy DLP and a 60" Sammy DLP. The 60" was cheaper? The only difference I could find while browsing was the 56" listed LED display. Should this make that kind of difference?

Also I noticed the UE sales guys were really pushing their 1080p technology to everyone they talked to. How long will it be before it makes sense to spend the extra money for 1080p?

Thank you in advance to anyone taking the time to read and respond. And any other suggestions are welcome. I hope my questions/comments are not too naive.

First of all, you are looking a very good TV's. I don't think you could go wrong with anything you're looking at.

Panasonic plasma's and Samsung DLP's are considered to be tops in their class.

I own a Panasonic plasma and a Samsung DLP, so I may be biased.

I would spend less time worrying about what the American guy said about Panny's, and more time trying to figure out the correct display type for you.

Personally, I think the best value today, especially if you want large screen size, is the Samsung DLP televisions. This is trure especially for the non "LED" models that use a "lamp" to project the image and are not 1080p. The LED will cost you as will 1080p. I personally can't tell the difference really between 720p and 1080p, so I saved a buck or two and invested in the cheaper 720p DLP. Of course, this TV is in the family room, is 46" and I sit pretty far away, so it would be hard to see any differences.

Some things to keep in mind when shopping.

1. What room TV will go in?
2. Who will be using the TV?
3. What sources do you own? HD-DVD? Bluray?
4. Will you use the display for gaming?
5. How far is the main viewing distance?
6. Will anyone frequently sit at extreme angles to the screen?

These are just a few of the questions a good salesperson should be asking you. The nice thing about buying from UE or American is if you feel you've made the wrong choice, you can return it up to 30 days later. :)

Good luck,

Scott

The thing with American, and I presume UE is they're going to steer you towards a TV that they make more money on. This is the reason they are sales men. Yes the TV's cost you the same, but he makes extra by selling one tv over the other.

I think the best this to do is use this forum, and like Scott said you have some great TV's to choose from, and just research the heck out of the TV's to make the best decision, and maybe rely on guys like Scott and Doug, instead of sales people.

Thanks guys.

From what I can tell the Panasonic plasma would have more glare issues, so I need to get out a mirror and check for that from seating areas. The worst angle is about 45 degrees, and seating will be 15-19 feet approx. I don't see us having HD DVD or Blue Ray anytime soon at all. We just don't watch that many DVDs with the large channel package we have and with the DVRs. Plus I won't have time, that was kdg454's comment because we are set to be first time parents with twins on the way and last week we just found out it will be 2 girls.

Right now I am leaning toward the plasma that I linked to my last post, so I am wondering if I need to worry about the tuner or not? When my OTA comes in my Dish receiver it is using the tuner in the Dish box not the TV, correct? What reasons might I have for paying around $400 extra for a built in tuner? I am also curious what kind of margins these stores have, my dad is looking for a TV and possibly furniture (the reason we visited American first) and my brother in law might be looking for a TV. If we all ended up buying at one place what kind of "deal" could a local B&M store throw at us?

If I was deciding on the Samsung, is the LED worth the extra money? Does it have a proven track record yet? Any additional comments? Thanks again guys. Obviously you have all pulled me into your dark web of addictive technology desire.

Deuces,

You are correct about the tuner. I have 9 TV's in my home and haven't used a built-in tuner in 11 years since getting D*.

Margins? Don't even try to figure those. But I can tell you their are double the margins on the furniture. Electronics don't have much margin. If you can get the Panny plasma for $2k, you are doing good.

LED's, I have yet to see one. When I shopped recently for my DLP, I didn't even consider them. Honestly, I even forgot they were making them now. I doubt I will regret my purchase of the lamp based DLP however. I'm not sure about the track record for the LED TV's.

Glare, do you mean "reflections." Like when you can see the reflection of a lamp that may be on in the room while watching TV at night. If so, I would definitely recommend DLP. The glass on my plasma is very reflective.

Hope this helps.

Scott

deuces,

I know that traditionally Panasonic products have had a reputation for service issues, but I am unaware of this being the case with Panasonic plasmas. I've had at least three dozen customers with Panasonic plasmas over the years and I'm not aware of any of them having a service problem. But of course, no manufacturer is without its service problems and you could have a service problem with whatever you end up buying -- I just don't think there's any evidence that buying a Panasonic plasma is going to make a service issue more likely for you. I agree that the American salesman might be trying to steer you toward a TV where he makes the bigger commission (or where he gets some other non-monetary benefit).

One other thing to bear in mind about service issues -- as a general rule, these manufacturers are not monolithic. What I mean by this is that the part of the company that is responsible for designing and manufacturing an LCD product is usually completely separate from the part of the company that does plasmas or DLPs. This is really evident when you start digging through service menus and see that there's no consistency to how controls are structured, labeled or implemented. In many cases, this is also obvious when looking at the user interface, or the user or service manuals. The point I'm making here is just because a manufacturer might have a poor track with one TV technology, that has relatively little bearing on the performance/reliability of other TVs it makes using other technologies. More than likely the different products were designed by different teams and manufactured in completely separate locations under relatively autonomous management.

I checked the links in your message and it appears that both of them have built-in ATSC tuners, so I don't think there's any plus/minus issue there. Personally, I'm not a fan of buying an HDTV with a built-in tuner, unless the premium is $100 or less. But one nice side benefit of an internal HD tuner is that it gives you an additional viewing option if you are using a DVR and frequently have a situation where you want to record/watch more than two programs simultaneously. But even if that's something you would use occasionally, it's not worth paying a lot for it.

As I noted here in a recent question about plasmas, I think it's also worth considering the Panasonic commercial/professional line -- here's my take on that from a message here earlier in the week:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9287396&&#post9287396

And here's a link to some information on the 50-inch commercial/pro model, as well as some indication of online pricing:

http://www.hdtvsolutions.com/flatscreen_spec.cfm?part_id=1374

http://www.visualapex.com/plasma/Plasma_details.asp?chPartNumber=TH-50PH9UK&MFR=Panasonic&SE=hdtv&KW=th50ph9uk

FWIW, that there's currently a $100 rebate available, too.

On the glare issue, the best solution is get the room lighting under control -- any TV, regardless of the technology or screen type, is going to suffer performance-wise when light hits the screen. While the Samsung DLPs have a flat-finish to their screens, this isn't a completely free lunch, as this type of screen can introduce what's known as the "silk screen effect," and this bothers some viewers as much as rainbows. Personally I don't think SSE is a big deal, even though I do occasionally see the "sparklies" associated with it; but then, I'm not bothered by the occasional rainbows I see, either. The other thing to consider when thinking about screen surfaces is that a plasma will have an edge in viewing angle over any sort of rear-projection screen.

I would think any salesman or sales manager would be interested in trying to swing a three-for-one sale with some accommodating pricing. I know I'd certainly work with you if you approached me for a similar arrangement on calibration. ;)

One other point about LED-based DLPs -- initial reports are encouraging, but I think it's ALWAYS a good idea to avoid adopting first- or even second-generation display technologies.

While the LED approach is a clever way to get around rainbows (caused by the color wheel), changing DLP design so fundamentally means there's sure to be other new issues that will need to be addressed (fix one problem, introduce a handful of others).

Anyway, there's really no point in paying to be an alpha/beta tester, unless you really crave the "first on your block" sort of experience.

I would think any salesman or sales manager would be interested in trying to swing a three-for-one sale with some accommodating pricing. I know I'd certainly work with you if you approached me for a similar arrangement on calibration. ;)

Wow Doug! are we talking calibration group buy? :cool:

Scott

Scott,

I agree the margins on the furniture are huge, I would guess more than double the electronics. I had heard in the past that American sold its technology products near cost just to get people in the door to buy furniture, obviously this isn't completely true or others would not be lower than them in price ever.

Yes, reflections is what I was calling glare. I have two large windows that could come into play. I am just going to have to check that out.

Wow Doug! are we talking calibration group buy? :cool: Scott, if there's interest, it could be arranged.

Thanks Doug,

I had already read your earlier post on the two lines of Panasonics. Wow the pricing is great. The main difference that would concern me is not having HDMI if I am reading correctly. I assume the cards you mentioned are how that can be added. How expensive/labor intensive is this? Does doing this compromise picture quality?

Edit: Doug it looks like the rebate and 5 year warranty specials end TODAY, lol. I wonder if they will be extended.

The slide-in cards that would add either HDMI or DVI cost around $150. They are user-installable and there's no picture quality downside in this sort of modular approach. Actually, I think it's an excellent approach and one that I would hope that more manufacturers copy. If you need speakers, internal tuner, table mount, etc., it's nice to be able to get a turnkey product, but if you don't there's no point in paying for something you aren't going to use.

Yeah, I noticed that the rebate/special offers on the Panasonics end today. Not sure if Visual Apex does business on Sunday, but Costco also sells these and I assume they would be honoring the incentive program, at least through today. Costco also has a very liberal return policy, which is never a bad thing.

All over the net people are talking about Costco's return policy change after the first of the year. I just talked to a manager at the St Peter's store, and their is no change, but they will start enforcing the current policy...All items have a 30 day return no questions asked. After that it is on a case by case basis. If their is a problem with the item, you must go through the mfg first for repairs. If that can not be done, they MAY do an exchange or a credit. Only exceptions is on computers, which after 6 months no exchanges or returns.

All over the net people are talking about Costco's return policy change after the first of the year. I just talked to a manager at the St Peter's store, and their is no change, but they will start enforcing the current policy...All items have a 30 day return no questions asked. After that it is on a case by case basis. If their is a problem with the item, you must go through the mfg first for repairs. If that can not be done, they MAY do an exchange or a credit. Only exceptions is on computers, which after 6 months no exchanges or returns.
What were they not enforcing, Chuck? Taking it past the 30 day NQA time period?

For those of you that have HD locals through DirecTV and I guess Dish what do you think of the picture quality?

I really compared the OTA vs. DirecTV FOX feed during the Rams game today and I really think the DirecTV feed is sharper and clearer.

I hadn't previously heard about the change in the Costco return policy. In fact, I wasn't aware of the fact that they were operating with a very liberal policy until an article in the New York Times talked about it -- IIRC, they quoted a Costco store manager stating that they would take back a plasma with burn-in if a customer wanted to return it.

I suspect this may be the point where Costco (or its shareholders) heard the alarm bell ringing...

What were they not enforcing, Chuck? Taking it past the 30 day NQA time period?

That would be correct...if an item is not working you must go through the mfg first, only after that can you attempt to bring it back to Costco. The problem is that a lot of the sales staff I guess did not understand store policy and was telling customers that the item could be brought back anytime. A lot of people were abusing this, and so the corporate office is now "educating" their staff.

I really compared the OTA vs. DirecTV FOX feed during the Rams game today and I really think the DirecTV feed is sharper and clearer.Winston, it's not really feasible for the DirecTV feed to be sharper or clearer, as it's undergoing an additional generation of expansion/compression in the conversion from the native MPEG-2 feed that DirecTV is receiving from KTVI and the MPEG-4 feed they are sending to customers.

Saying the MPEG-4 feed is sharper and clearer is like saying that a Xerox of a document looks better than the original. Not possible.

Both MPEG-2 and (the bandwidth-saving flavors of) MPEG-4 are "lossy" codecs, so the MPEG-2 feed would be "more intact" than the MPEG-4 feed. Mind you, it's possible that DirecTV is taking a "lightly lightly" approach with the MPEG-4 encoding, so that the generational loss is difficult to detect, but it is there nonetheless.

It's also possible that DirecTV is applying "sharpening" to the picture before conversion to MPEG-4, but that would ultimately be every bit as bad as applying too much compression.

My view on receiving digital locals via satellite is that if you care about picture quality, you're better off with OTA receipt, using the satellite feeds only as a fallback. Although the initial reports on MPEG-4 locals on both DirecTV and DISH is that they look very good, it's likely that at some point down the road bandwidth will become an issue and satellite carriers will start bit-shaving the locals more aggressively.

Scott,

I agree the margins on the furniture are huge, I would guess more than double the electronics. I had heard in the past that American sold its technology products near cost just to get people in the door to buy furniture, obviously this isn't completely true or others would not be lower than them in price ever.

Yes, reflections is what I was calling glare. I have two large windows that could come into play. I am just going to have to check that out.

I purchased a 52 inch Toshiba Cinema Series DLP from American a couple of years ago. I don't remember exactly how much I got them to come down in price, but I did bargin with them. I believe it was somewhere around $500-600 that I got knocked off the price.

Doug, I understand what your saying about the MPEG compression and quality, but how does (or does?) signal strength play into the OTA reception quality, does a 80% signal look any better than a 70% signal for example?

I am using a TERK indoor and get very nice reception about 99% of the time, if a kid or dog walks by the antenna I get chop, but mostly very clear crisp picture. I was thinking about going the DTV way, as I already am a subscriber, but have been trying to talk myself out of it by doing a 3 week trial of the OTA antenna. So far I HAVE been very pleased with it, not really enamoured with the idea of paying the extra $$ for a couple channels I can't get now (ESPN, TNT, etc) but can get on my regular DTV receiver.


john

Doug, I understand what your saying about the MPEG compression and quality, but how does (or does?) signal strength play into the OTA reception quality, does a 80% signal look any better than a 70% signal for example?
john

Not Doug, but I'll chime in.

As long as you are receiving a signal, the percentage doesn't matter.

With a low signal you could suffer break up, which would lead to digital blocks of
video on your screen, but if you are getting video & audio, a 60% signal would
look no better than a 100% signal.

jcorbin,

It's difficult to know what, if any, conclusions you can draw from signal strength readings, as it seems there's really no standard for what's being measured or how it's actually updated and displayed. I'm far from expert on the way an ATSC feed works, but I've read that many signal meters are actually extrapolating "signal strength" readings on the basis of how much error correction gets applied by the receiver.

In my own experience with the HD TiVo, anything above 60% signal strength pretty much ensures a steady lock on the station, with no dropouts and no visible pixellation -- below that level and the picture cuts in and out, or there are significant freezes and/or pixellation.

I haven't spent a lot of time looking at different signal levels and trying to distinguish the difference between 70% and 80%, etc. But personally, I don't think there's a lot of additional picture quality potential in a 10- or even 20-point difference in signal strength on the TiVo.

But I haven't really tested this and suspect that it could vary by receiver, and probably does.

For those of you that have HD locals through DirecTV and I guess Dish what do you think of the picture quality?

I really compared the OTA vs. DirecTV FOX feed during the Rams game today and I really think the DirecTV feed is sharper and clearer.
The HD locals are definitely softer on the Dish sat feed as compared to the OTA feed. There's no doubt about it, and anyone who has compared, agrees....at least as I've read.
FYI, Dish is using MPEG4 compression for their HD locals.

I could see how a sat feed could be equal to OTA, but difficult to imagine it being better. OTOH, we really don't know just what KTVI may be doing to one feed, and not another. From what I've mined out, there's a whole host of things broadcasters, satcasters, and cablecasters can, or cannot, do to a signal before it reaches its final destination.

I watched today's episode of "Firefly" on Universal HD and was really happy about some of the promotions for upcoming UHD programs.

Starting on January 4th, "Stargate: Atlantis" is going to be added to the UHD line-up. It looks like they are also moving the new season of Battlestar Galactica to Saturday night, in order to create an all-sci-fi programming block, highlighted by a weekly sci-fi movie from the Universal vault.

Even more intriguing is the announcment that "Northern Exposure" is going to be shown, beginning tomorrow, on UHD in HD. This is one of my all-time favorite shows. I missed NE the duing its original run when I was living overseas, and it was one of the first things I routinely recorded when I got my first DVR (the dead-before-its-time ReplayTV).

It will be great to be able to see NE all over again in HD.

BTW, watching "Firefly" is a classic pleasure/pain experience -- the pleasure being it was a really great show that had tremendous potential and the pain being the fact that some nitwit programming executives killed it off long before it had a chance to find an audience.

For those of you that have HD locals through DirecTV and I guess Dish what do you think of the picture quality?

I really compared the OTA vs. DirecTV FOX feed during the Rams game today and I really think the DirecTV feed is sharper and clearer.


Are you using the OTA tuner on the D* box? I have Dishnetwork and I've compared my locals from 3 different sources and they rate in this order 1 - 3.

1. OTA tuner on my Toshiba 62HMX94 is flawless - SUPERB
2. OTA tuner on Dish 622 receiver - Very good
3. Dish mpeg 4 feed of locals - Good....Not quite up to the OTA tuner on 622.

I've never seen anything yet to beat the OTA tuner on my television.
I've also tried component and HDMI inputs on my 622 receiver and component looks better.

That's an interesting point.

I have not compared the OTA via my Sony HDTV's built-in tuner. What I *am* comparing are the HD-TiVo's OTA tuner and the sat locals via the DirecTV HR20.

I have read/heard reports that the HR20's picture quality is superior to the HD-TiVo's on similar channels (ie: HDNet.) I'm not sure if that's true or not, but regardless your point is an interesting one.

Maybe it's my 44 year old eyes, but I can never tell the difference between OTA and D* HD.

Congrats to the Boltz for winning today and securing home field advantage throughout the playoffs!

I succesfully connected my Xbox to the internet and my laptops today via wireless network. Pretty cool that I can stream stuff from my laptop to my projector via the xbox. The more I mess with the xbox the more I like it.

Scott

Here is a side by side of the Dish SAT and OTA:

SAT:
http://members.aol.com/kdg454/5x7SAT5.jpg

OTA
http://members.aol.com/kdg454/5x7OTA5.jpg

Taken into account these are photographs taken hand-held, and the movement of the images just before I paused them, you can still clearly see there is a softer PQ from the SAT MPEG4 signal, and a crisper PQ from the OTA signal. (the smaller lower-right image made it easier for me to pause as close to the same image with the PiP windows open)

Pay particular attention to the Farve's skin tones, the black outline on the helmet, the black face-mask, and the "fuzzy-ness" along the nose.

The images above are reduced to 5x7 for fitment. If you like, you may view the full resolution images here:
SAT image click HERE (members.aol.com/kdg454/SAT5.jpg)
OTA image click HERE (members.aol.com/kdg454/OTA5.jpg)

Here is a side by side of the Dish SAT and OTA:

SAT:
http://members.aol.com/kdg454/5x7SAT5.jpg

OTA
http://members.aol.com/kdg454/5x7OTA5.jpg

Taken into account these are photographs taken hand-held, and the movement of the images just before I paused them, you can still clearly see there is a softer PQ from the SAT MPEG4 signal, and a crisper PQ from the OTA signal. (the smaller lower-right image made it easier for me to pause as close to the same image with the PiP windows open)

Pay particular attention to the Farve's skin tones, the black outline on the helmet, the black face-mask, and the "fuzzy-ness" along the nose.

The images above are reduced to 5x7 for fitment. If you like, you may view the full resolution images here:
SAT image click HERE (members.aol.com/kdg454/SAT5.jpg)
OTA image click HERE (members.aol.com/kdg454/OTA5.jpg)


Great example.
I came to the same conclusion as you. When ever I record I always try to record the OTA HD as opposed the the mpeg 4 feed. I'm glad I have it simply for scheduling conflicts. The program with the lesser HD quality gets recorded on the mpeg4.

Has anyone picked up on the old stuttering problem with Ch. 30 lately? I thought it was my 622 misbehaving, but it seems to be happening only on 30.

Scott, if there's interest, it could be arranged.


yes, please!!!

-Matt

All over the net people are talking about Costco's return policy change after the first of the year. I just talked to a manager at the St Peter's store, and their is no change, but they will start enforcing the current policy...All items have a 30 day return no questions asked. After that it is on a case by case basis. If their is a problem with the item, you must go through the mfg first for repairs. If that can not be done, they MAY do an exchange or a credit. Only exceptions is on computers, which after 6 months no exchanges or returns.

For the most part, there's not a whole lot of change. This is mainly to put a stop to people using the return policy as a "free upgrade" policy.... returning a three year old 36" CRT HDTV monitor, getting a full refund of the $1200 or so they paid for it at the time, and buying a 42" LCD TV with HD tuner built-in for the same price. The last several months we've been testing those returned TV's and finding *nothing* wrong with over half of them... other than they're too old for us to resell.

The discussion thread on fatwallet.com about it has several people complaining that they won't be able to get a new TV every year for free anymore. :rolleyes:

For the most part, there's not a whole lot of change. This is mainly to put a stop to people using the return policy as a "free upgrade" policy.... returning a three year old 36" CRT HDTV monitor, getting a full refund of the $1200 or so they paid for it at the time, and buying a 42" LCD TV with HD tuner built-in for the same price. The last several months we've been testing those returned TV's and finding *nothing* wrong with over half of them... other than they're too old for us to resell.

The discussion thread on fatwallet.com about it has several people complaining that they won't be able to get a new TV every year for free anymore. :rolleyes:

My wife used to work in clothing retail (Victorias Secret, the limited and department stores) She described people bringing in used jeans, bras and panties for return. Some that were no longer in style (several years old) and never laundered. But for some reason, store policy was to accept the returns.

Some people will go to no ends to save a buck...

OK guys, bear with me...this one's kinda long. My current set up has me running all my components through my Onkyo TXSR702 which has component upconverting. (Tangent: I assume this is better-named component "cross-converting:" it's definitely not "up" anything, just translating 480i composite and s-video to component.) From the Onkyo, it's a thirty-foot run of component cables to my 720p Philips LCD TV. All my components that are cabable of hdtv resolution are set to 720p and run to the Onkyo via component. All cables are of fairly good quality, no "free-in-the-box" cables, but nothing extravagently expensive, either. I also have a thirty-or-so foot VGA cable run to the TV, and am noticing severe ghosting on the image. The component cable looks very good sharpness-wise, but I think I'm noticing significant noise in the backgrounds of my hdtv pics. It became apparent after hooking up the XBOX360 HDDVD Drive. Foreground images look prisitine as posible, but background images have noise and sparkle, not the smoothness I'd expect. It's also noticeable on HDTV images, both live and recorded.

I've adjusted my sets sharpness control up and down with minimal results. I've turned on and off all "noise reduction" circuitry with no effect. I'm assuming it's not the TV, as the problem was never noticed when the components were six feet from the TV and popped up when I moved them to the other side of the room, and ran the longer cables.

Soooo...Here's the questions: How much signal loss is expected over a thirty foot run of fair-quality component cables? Do I need more expensive cables? Any other suggestions as to what may be causing this? I have a chance to opportunity to buy a Denon HDMI upconverting receiver to replace the Onkyo, would HDMI be a better choice for the length of the cable run?

Any suggestions or comments would be really appreciated...

-Matt

For those of you not happy with KSDK's non-HD telecast of the Rose Parade, Discovery HD is showing it. :) Note to local advertisers on KSDK: I am not seeing your ads!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Update: If you want to see the local ads. The local ABC affiliate KDNL is showing it in HD! So much for the self proclaimed "leader in HD." KSDK drops the ball again.

Scott

Does anyone know if the HR20's from D* have the same audio drop-outs that the 6.3a HD-Tivo's have? If not, I'm going to seriously think about upgrading, because this is driving me nuts! 24 starts in two weeks!!!

Does anyone know if the HR20's from D* have the same audio drop-outs that the 6.3a HD-Tivo's have? If not, I'm going to seriously think about upgrading, because this is driving me nuts! 24 starts in two weeks!!!

Did you get the 6.3b update yet? Not sure why, but my audio drop outs have become, might I say, nonexistant for some reason. Anyway, I think some people who have gotten the 6.3b upgrade are having better results.

Scott

The HR20's have their own set of bugs from what I hear, but dropouts on KTVI are not one of them. My season pass for 24 will be on Fox-HD East (channel 88 or 89, I forget which) in the meantime.

Did you get the 6.3b update yet? Not sure why, but my audio drop outs have become, might I say, nonexistant for some reason. Anyway, I think some people who have gotten the 6.3b upgrade are having better results.

Scott

No, I haven't got the 6.3b update yet, which is annoying. I guess I'll set it to channel 88 to record 24, but the PQ (to my eyes) is better on the OTA. Bummer.

Audio dropouts appear to have disappeared with 6.3b, but I have still had lockups/reboots since the update.

Is there a way to get the update, or does it just come when they feel like sending it?

Is there a way to get the update, or does it just come when they feel like sending it?You'll get it when you're due. Just make sure it's plugged into the phone line and making its calls. You won't get the update otherwise.

Is there a way to get the update, or does it just come when they feel like sending it?

You can force phone calls, but I think it comes when they feel like sending it. Shouldn't be too much longer probably. I haven't got mine yet either.

Scott

You can force phone calls, but I think it comes when they feel like sending it. Shouldn't be too much longer probably. I haven't got mine yet either.

ScottD* told me they expect everyone to have the update by mid-January.

I feel like I've been due for months, but oh well!

OK guys, bear with me...this one's kinda long. My current set up has me running all my components through my Onkyo TXSR702 which has component upconverting. (Tangent: I assume this is better-named component "cross-converting:" it's definitely not "up" anything, just translating 480i composite and s-video to component.) From the Onkyo, it's a thirty-foot run of component cables to my 720p Philips LCD TV. All my components that are cabable of hdtv resolution are set to 720p and run to the Onkyo via component. All cables are of fairly good quality, no "free-in-the-box" cables, but nothing extravagently expensive, either. I also have a thirty-or-so foot VGA cable run to the TV, and am noticing severe ghosting on the image. The component cable looks very good sharpness-wise, but I think I'm noticing significant noise in the backgrounds of my hdtv pics. It became apparent after hooking up the XBOX360 HDDVD Drive. Foreground images look prisitine as posible, but background images have noise and sparkle, not the smoothness I'd expect. It's also noticeable on HDTV images, both live and recorded.

I've adjusted my sets sharpness control up and down with minimal results. I've turned on and off all "noise reduction" circuitry with no effect. I'm assuming it's not the TV, as the problem was never noticed when the components were six feet from the TV and popped up when I moved them to the other side of the room, and ran the longer cables.

Soooo...Here's the questions: How much signal loss is expected over a thirty foot run of fair-quality component cables? Do I need more expensive cables? Any other suggestions as to what may be causing this? I have a chance to opportunity to buy a Denon HDMI upconverting receiver to replace the Onkyo, would HDMI be a better choice for the length of the cable run?

Any suggestions or comments would be really appreciated...

-Matt

This sounds like a cable problem to me. I had similar issues with a cheaper VGA cable of even shorter length. My more expensive Cables-to-Go VGA cable (from Tiger Direct) didn't present the same problem. I also used to run a much longer BetterCables.com component cable that didn't have that sort of problem, either.

I have had ground loop problems with analog cables in my house. Since I started using DVI cables for the video, noise and ground loop problems have gone away. Longer DVI-D cables (over 30') haven't presented a problem before, although I may be having a problem with 1080p signals at those lengths now. Before, the signals were 1080i or 720p, which require less bandwidth. DVI and HDMI cables should perform similarly, but HDMI will cost more.

Wherever you can use them, you should use DVI-D cables. (You don't mention how you're running audio signals, but I'm assuming coax or optical.) I got my DVI cables from RAM Electronics. Google them. I got a DVI to HDMI adapter locally from Computer Connections on Page for about $12-13.

Well the UHD presentation of "Northern Exposure" appears to be a classic example of "the large print giveth, the small print taketh away." I just checked my TiVo and found that NE is being presented in 4x3 with black pillar bars.

It is labeled "HDTV" in the program guide and was obviously advertised as HD, but as far as I'm concerned a 4x3 HD transfer doesn't cut it. If Mark Cuban and HDNet can make the effort to do "Hogan's Heroes" as an (almost) widescreen presentation, then that should be the very least to be expected of Universal, which has substantially more resources and expertise than HDNet.

Universal is supposed to be upgrading its HD presence in 2007 via UHD, but if this any indication of the things to come then they don't understand viewer expectations or (more likely) they just don't care.

Delete -- Delete -- Delete -- Delete... :mad:

The HR20's have their own set of bugs from what I hear, but dropouts on KTVI are not one of them. My season pass for 24 will be on Fox-HD East (channel 88 or 89, I forget which) in the meantime.

I just swapped my HR20 to my main viewing room and moved the HR10-250 up
to the bedroom. The audio sync issues are still present with 6.3b, but in my
"testing" I only found it to happen when using the optical digital output and not
the HDMI DD output.

While the HR20 still has issues, for example it recorded Cold Case last night when
I told it to do first runs only, I swapped it to the main viewing area because I
wanted to get the local MPEG4 feed on the main TV and I wanted to use the
PLUS features for NFL viewing.

It is definately nice not to have to record stuff from 88 when I can use either 2-1 or
MPEG4 KTVI.

I'm sure I will be throwing stuff at my HR20, but oh well...I had to swap eventually.

Has anyone picked up on the old stuttering problem with Ch. 30 lately? I thought it was my 622 misbehaving, but it seems to be happening only on 30.

Is this only happening for me? Buehler? Anyone?

As far as I know, there are no audio dropouts on the HR20.

I have also not experienced any of the bugs that others are talking about, however I am currently still using my HD-TiVo for my main DVR (the HR20 is also connected to the same TV.)

I miss the dual buffers and I especially miss the TiVo's "autocorrect" feature while fastforwarding (the HR20's FF feature is not that great.)

Scott,

I assume you're talking about the XBOX360, right?

Do you have an HTPC? Can you stream anything on your MCE enabled HTPC to the XBOX on another TV and watch it?

.
It looks like they are also moving the new season of Battlestar Galactica to Saturday night, in order to create an all-sci-fi programming block, highlighted by a weekly sci-fi movie from the Universal vault.


Are you referring to the season on UHD or SciFi? If SciFi (http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/), it moves to Sunday night, 1/21 at 9 Central.

Is this only happening for me? Buehler? Anyone?


Sorry Joe, the only show I watch regularly on KDNL is Lost, which is currently on hiatus... so I can't offer any experience yay or nay for ya...............

Is this only happening for me? Buehler? Anyone?

Sorry, I can't remember the last time I watched ABC.

Scott

Scott,

I assume you're talking about the XBOX360, right?

Do you have an HTPC? Can you stream anything on your MCE enabled HTPC to the XBOX on another TV and watch it?

Yes, I'm talking about the xbox 360. No I have a laptop running MCE. I can send MCE to the xbox that is connected to my projector. I probably will not use it much, but we'll see. I'm no computer guy, but I guess I can do anything via MCE on the xbox that I could do on the laptop. So far I've streamed photos and music videos via a wireless connection. I am really liking the xbox and HD-DVD add-on.

Scott

Is this only happening for me? Buehler? Anyone?

Yes(or I guess to answer your question, no), I had a few stutters on abc ota the past few days too. I haven't paid 100% attention to the bowl games, but the problem seems to be gone or at least I'm not watching when it happens.

Joe,

Just turned on the Rose Bowl and sound cut out for about 5 seconds during the National Anthem. Picture looks sweet though.

Scott

Scott,

I assume you're talking about the XBOX360, right?

Do you have an HTPC? Can you stream anything on your MCE enabled HTPC to the XBOX on another TV and watch it?

Yes,
I do the same with my XBox 360 and HTPC (MCE 2005). You cannot stream anything. The following formats are "officially supported"

Video formats

MPEG-1 with MPEG audio
MPEG-2 with MPEG audio or AC-3 audio
WMV 7, 8, & 9 with WMA Standard or WMA Pro audio
WMV Image 1 & 2 (Photo Story 1, 2, & 3)
Audio formats

Windows Media Audio (WMA) Standard
WMA Pro
WMA Lossless
MP3
Other formats for which a DirectShow decoder is installed and registered on the PC

In addition there are articles discussing streaming divx, though I have not done this. From my understanding you must launch the video on the HTPC for the 360 to pick up the stream.

Dave

Yes,
I do the same with my XBox 360 and HTPC (MCE 2005). You cannot stream anything. The following formats are "officially supported"

Video formats

MPEG-1 with MPEG audio
MPEG-2 with MPEG audio or AC-3 audio
WMV 7, 8, & 9 with WMA Standard or WMA Pro audio
WMV Image 1 & 2 (Photo Story 1, 2, & 3)
Audio formats

Windows Media Audio (WMA) Standard
WMA Pro
WMA Lossless
MP3
Other formats for which a DirectShow decoder is installed and registered on the PC

In addition there are articles discussing streaming divx, though I have not done this. From my understanding you must launch the video on the HTPC for the 360 to pick up the stream.

Dave

Like I said. It can stream anything. :D Well, almost anything. Or, at least the stuff you mentioned...Did I mention? It's a fairly good gaming system as well.

Scott

Has anyone picked up on the old stuttering problem with Ch. 30 lately? I thought it was my 622 misbehaving, but it seems to be happening only on 30.
Joe,
If you're referring to the Dish stutter issue, no, I haven't seen it on 30. Other than an occasion stutter during a DVR event playback, I haven't had any stuttering video for several months.

Audio sync still rears its cheeks time, and again. Mostly with the locals, OTA and SAT, still with no concrete consistency. I think it's still a lingering bug in the 622 software, in that, the software not always being able to adapt to all given scenarios.

I have had two audio drop outs during the Rose Bowl on 30.1 OTA. Both drop outs were about 5 seconds.

Scott

In addition there are articles discussing streaming divx, though I have not done this. From my understanding you must launch the video on the HTPC for the 360 to pick up the stream.

Dave

I use a program called Transcode 360 which will reencode Divx files on the fly and stream them to the 360. Works great.

Messin' around with screen shots again. Ken gave me the inspiration.

Screen shots of Sharp xv-z9000 projector via my HD Tivo.

D* 86

http://aycu37.webshots.com/image/9396/2006360841029602036_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2006360841029602036)

OTA 30.1

http://aycu11.webshots.com/image/9210/2006373330509989566_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2006373330509989566)

D* 86

http://aycu39.webshots.com/image/7478/2006306068356784665_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2006306068356784665)

OTA 30.1

http://aycu09.webshots.com/image/8728/2006397731753855820_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2006397731753855820)

Scott

I flipped to channel 11 OTA for a second during the Rose Bowl, because I had never seen Everybody Hates Chris and I got signal dropouts and pixellization. Anyone else? I just split my OTA signal over the weekend to feed a 2nd tuner, but had noticed no problems. I am hoping this is 11 and not my signal. All of my signals are high 98-100 with 9's and 30 being the exceptions. 11 was showing 99-100 while it was dropping out. Thanks.

The first one had an excellent shot of my favorite female broadcaster! You did a nice job picking content to take shots 0f =]

The first one had an excellent shot of my favorite female broadcaster!

B Squared??? Uugh. Needs a nose job

I flipped to channel 11 OTA for a second during the Rose Bowl, because I had never seen Everybody Hates Chris and I got signal dropouts and pixellization. Anyone else? I just split my OTA signal over the weekend to feed a 2nd tuner, but had noticed no problems. I am hoping this is 11 and not my signal. All of my signals are high 98-100 with 9's and 30 being the exceptions. 11 was showing 99-100 while it was dropping out. Thanks.

I've had lots of thsoe on Ch. 11 in the last days/weeks. I thought it was my 622 or some sudden change in my antenna, although signal strength registers at 100%. For me the signal is unwatchable. Anyone else having problems with 11, too? All my other stations are coming in fine.

B Squared??? Uugh. Needs a nose job


Ever since Melissa Stark quit sports for NBC, Bonnie has been my favorite.

I have to say, though, Erin Andrews is a VERY close second, and probably should be #1.

Ever since Melissa Stark quit sports for NBC, Bonnie has been my favorite.

I have to say, though, Erin Andrews is a VERY close second, and probably should be #1.
Not Katie Felts :eek:

Had to suffer through the Rose Bowl today in SD. Has anyone heard anything about Charter delivering ABC HD? They have all the other local channels, so what's the hold up? ESPN2HD would be nice too, but my main concern is ABC HD.

Had to suffer through the Rose Bowl today in SD. Has anyone heard anything about Charter delivering ABC HD? They have all the other local channels, so what's the hold up? ESPN2HD would be nice too, but my main concern is ABC HD.

Not sure when Charter will get ABC HD, but don't they have Discovery HD? That is what I watched today's Parade on.

Scott

Had to suffer through the Rose Bowl today in SD. Has anyone heard anything about Charter delivering ABC HD? They have all the other local channels, so what's the hold up? ESPN2HD would be nice too, but my main concern is ABC HD.
Some info here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8072643&&#post8072643
and here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9315622#post9315622

Messin' around with screen shots again. Ken gave me the inspiration.
Screen shots of Sharp xv-z9000 projector via my HD Tivo.
Scott
Wow Scott....they are close. Still looking at them.
Far less disparity than Dish.
Is the OTA through the Tivo ATSC, or a built in?

That's what I'm saying... DirecTV HD locals looks great.

I've had lots of thsoe on Ch. 11 in the last days/weeks. I thought it was my 622 or some sudden change in my antenna, although signal strength registers at 100%. For me the signal is unwatchable. Anyone else having problems with 11, too? All my other stations are coming in fine.

I've got dropouts on Ch 11 using my 622 as well.
Same on my MCE HTPC.

Dave

I've had lots of thsoe on Ch. 11 in the last days/weeks. I thought it was my 622 or some sudden change in my antenna, although signal strength registers at 100%. For me the signal is unwatchable. Anyone else having problems with 11, too? All my other stations are coming in fine.

Same trouble here. I thought it was my 622 also but it looks more like it's CH 11.

Originally Posted by Joseph Clark
I've had lots of thsoe on Ch. 11 in the last days/weeks. I thought it was my 622 or some sudden change in my antenna, although signal strength registers at 100%. For me the signal is unwatchable. Anyone else having problems with 11, too? All my other stations are coming in fine.


Same problem here with Channel 11. It is completely unwatchable. Signal goes from 93 to 0 every 20 seconds or so.

Wow Scott....they are close. Still looking at them.
Far less disparity than Dish.
Is the OTA through the Tivo ATSC, or a built in?

Both through the Directv HD Tivo. I can never tell the difference between D* and OTA. I have never tried a built-in tuner. Maybe I'll give it a shot on the new Sammy DLP.

Scott

I am watching 11 OTA through my 622 also. Is anyone having trouble that is not using the 622? I still have a 942, I will have to check on it when I get home today.

It has been a very long time since I posted, but I read everyone's posting almost daily. So, after the long delay, I need advice. I was lucky enough to get a Playstation 3 just before Christmas. I really could care less about the games, but I wanted Blu-Ray, so I got the 60 gig one at $600.00. The problem is I was an early adopter on the television, and I have a Sony direct view 40 inch that accepts 1080i. I looked in Quicken and saw that Doug calibrated it back on July 30, 2003! (Looks like it's time to call Doug to recalibrate and set up the Blu-Ray). I bought from Monster the component cables that have the one end that plugs into the PS3 with the other into the Sony. It works beautifully on the video end, so I have no problem there. The problem is audio. I have an old preamp that does not accept optical or digital audio, and I only have a two speaker amp (never did get into the 5.1 stuff) so right now the audio from the PS3 is going to the lousy speakers on the Sony tv. Ugh! I want to finally upgrade to 5.1 or 7.1, so right now it looks like I will have to buy an AV receiver. Here's my first question. It looks like the new TrueHD dolby format will only come out of the PS3 with an HDMI cable (and what's the deal with HDMI 1.3?) If I just use an optical cable out from the PS3 to a receiver, the best I'll get is regular Dolby 5.1. (I think.) So, I've seen some AV receivers that have one or two HDMI inputs, and component video output. If I bought a HDMI cable that sends the HDMI signal video and TrueHD audio from the PS3 to the receiver, do you think the AV receiver will take the incoming HDMI video signal which is coming into the AV receiver at 1080p and convert it from 1080p to 1080i so my Sony tv can still get a 1080i picture? Here everyone is trying to scale up to 1080p from 1080i, and I'm wanting to "de-scale" back to 1080i. I guess a "HDMI pass-through receiver" won't work since my tv doesn't accept HDMI. And, I assume I will then have the AV receiver take the TrueHD audio and send it out to the speakers (which is a whole 'nother issue - anyone have the Polk SoundBar?). Of course, all of this could be avoided if I had a tv that accepted 1080p from the get-go, but that will have to wait until this summer when supposedly the tv's will be able to accept HDMI 1.3 and the nirvana enhanced colors, etc. (I've already been looking at Costco.)
I may not be the only one out there with this issue, since there's probably lots of us who were early adopters and have no HDMI input on our tv. Has anyone had this issue themselves? I hate to have a great picture and lousy audio. Any advise would really be welcome.
Thanks,

Ray

A/V receivers WILL NOT output video via component with HDMI source material, sorry. Good luck getting rid of that TV, they weigh something like 350lbs

Ray,

Not sure if the new receivers will downconvert to component or not. However, if the play station will output both HDMI and component at the same time, you could run component video to the TV. Hope this helps. Also, you get better help in the a/v receivers forums or Bluray playstation forum.

Scott

A/V receivers WILL NOT output video via component with HDMI source material, sorry. Good luck getting rid of that TV, they weigh something like 350lbs
The one we moved to our bedroom was a 36" @ 378 lbs. The set still looks great, but it was too small for our new family room. So, now we have a spankin new 60". Color me happy.
Dug

Hey Ray,

Good to hear from you -- it HAS been a while... :)

Unfortunately I don't have any great solutions for your audio issue. Actually there is one possibility and that would be to go HDMI into an AV receiver for the audio and than HDMI out into a scaler/processor for the video to convert to component. I'm reasonably confident that would work but I'd need to check into it further. I haven't done that yet, because it's probably not a great solution for you cost-wise, as just the scaler/processor would set you back about double what you paid for the PS3.

But if you tell me that solution could be in play, I'll start the ball rolling on finding out if it's feasible.

Sorry to hear you're having these hassles but happy to try to help on this, as well as re-calibration when you're ready.

Charter May Lose KMOV-DT from Thursday in Payment Dispute

The following story is from today's St. Louis Post-Dispatch:
___________________________________________________________

Charter Communications Inc.'s high-definition television customers could be without HD programming from KMOV as early as Thursday because of a dispute between the cable company and Belo Corp., which owns KMOV (Channel 4).

Federal regulations require Charter to obtain permission from broadcast stations before transmitting their signals.

The cable company has obtained permission from other St. Louis stations to carry HD programs, but KMOV is asking Charter to pay for the HD signal.

Charter has carried KMOV's HD channel for nearly three years without paying for it.

Sharifah Williams, a Charter spokeswoman, said the cable company "does not believe our customers should have to pay extra for a signal that is transmitted free of charge and can be received over-the-air with a UHF antenna."

Jim Rothschild, KMOV's director of operations, said, "We are simply asking Charter to share some of the value that it gets from our HD investment. They pay national channels for HDTV services, so they should also pay local channels. Local programming is important to our community and deserves a level playing field so it can continue to deliver the highest quality possible."

Charter will continue to offer KMOV's regular signal, but without an agreement, it can't offer KMOV's HD broadcasts, Williams said.

Charter's HD customers will get a letter in the next few days informing them that it won't retransmit the HD signal until an agreement is reached.
___________________________________________________________

I had heard about this from a custom installer I had do some work for me about 3 weeks ago. I was hoping that the guy just didn't know anything.

I do know this, when I get that letter from Charter saying they are dropping KMOV-HD, I will be calling right up and demanding for a rebate on my monthly HD charges.

Looks like the tables are getting turned. Cable for the longest time advertised that locals weren't available from satellite (long after that stopped being true). Maybe the satellite companies should start working on new ads to say they provide locals where cable doesn't. :D

From a tip from a poster on the Moxi board I stopped by Charter in St. Peters yesterday and asked for a splitter and some short cables...no problem..nice splitter too!

While I was there I thought I might ask a technical question: "Are you guys testing Moxi's software version 4.1?" I might have just as well asked them the square root of pi? The looks were priceless but disappointing. I pressed on. "I know employees sometimes test the new software at home, how about it, you testing it?" huh? Of the three mouth breathers I was asking one piped up "Maybe they are testing it at the Town and Country lab". OK, I'll take my splitter and go. :(

DirecTV, MLB Discussing Extra Innings Exclusivity

Note the following sentence from the article below: "The league has been shopping the exclusive programming bundle to both cable and satellite providers during the past several weeks."

Pay close attention now -- that means that cable and DISH and anyone else who is interested in an exclusive has the opportunity to get one by stepping up to the plate and paying for it. Otherwise, they should STFU.

I motion there should be a "no crying in Pay TV" rule. :)

The following story is from today's SkyREPORT newsletter:
_________________________________________________

The pay-TV industry has long envied DIRECTV for its exclusive carriage agreement with the National Football League for its NFL Sunday Ticket. Now, according to reports, the satcaster is eyeing Major League Baseball's Extra Innings to be the next professional sports programming package only available on DIRECTV.

A recent story in Sports Business Journal said DIRECTV is in advanced negotiations with MLB executives about acquiring exclusive carriage rights to the league's out-of-market Extra Innings package - a move that authors John Ourand and Eric Fisher said would be "a huge blow to the cable industry" and cause a stir on Capitol Hill. According to the story, unnamed sources from the league and DIRECTV confirmed that the two sides are negotiating a deal that admittedly still has a number of hurdles.

The league has been shopping the exclusive programming bundle to both cable and satellite providers during the past several weeks. Last year, most providers were offering the entire season for about $179.

The article said MLB and cable execs have been frustrated with Extra Innings' slow growth peaking at roughly 750,000 subs last season and teams were picking up individual payouts of about $2 million each. By comparison, SBJ said, the NFL's Sunday Ticket had nearly 2 million subs with DIRECTV paying the league close to $700 million per year through 2010.

With Congress offering a sympathetic ear to cable's recent (and long-term) complaints about DIRECTV's stronghold on professional football, some industry insiders with close ties to the negotiations for baseball expressed surprise that MLB would try to secure an exclusive deal, the article said.
_________________________________________________

If Charter drops KMOV HD--I will cancel cable,and go with Direct TV. I might need a pole mount, due to trees, though.

If Charter drops KMOV HD--I will cancel cable,and go with Direct TV. I might need a pole mount, due to trees, though.

I don't really follow the reasoning for leaving what you obviously find to be a good value. All they are doing is dropping one channel possibly. You could remedy this by getting a tuner and antenna for less than $100, and keep the cable you seem to like. Plus, you would end up with ABC HD too. :)

Scott

"There's no crying in Pay TV!" That's funny Doug. :)

Scott

This is just not good news especially with NCAA basketball approaching and NFL play off games here. All though I have to agree with Charter, why would you pay for something eveyone else can get for free, maybe KMOV should charge more for ads on their HD channel. Once my contract is up I just might be switching but I really would hate to lose Cinemax HD it is a great channel, cropped HD or not. :(

I don't really follow the reasoning for leaving what you obviously find to be a good value. All they are doing is dropping one channel possibly. You could remedy this by getting a tuner and antenna for less than $100, and keep the cable you seem to like. Plus, you would end up with ABC HD too. :)

Scott

Hi Scott, I have been thinking about doing just that. I have an older HDTV (that 40" SONY!!) that doesn't have the HD tuner. Any suggestion on where and how to get a tuner. I know the good antenna to get.
Thanks,
Wayne

I don't really follow the reasoning for leaving what you obviously find to be a good value. All they are doing is dropping one channel possibly. You could remedy this by getting a tuner and antenna for less than $100, and keep the cable you seem to like. Plus, you would end up with ABC HD too. :)

Scott

However, you also loose the ability to record CBS HD with your DVR then and an OTA won't help you there, will it?

Hi Scott, I have been thinking about doing just that. I have an older HDTV (that 40" SONY!!) that doesn't have the HD tuner. Any suggestion on where and how to get a tuner. I know the good antenna to get.
Thanks,
Wayne

Ebay? Local stores too. An old D* tuner will work great for over the air and you don't need to activate it.

Scott

However, you also loose the ability to record CBS HD with your DVR then and an OTA won't help you there, will it?

Ahh, you are wise grasshoppa. ;) That is why i should "think" before speaking. :o Actually, I'm sure anyone familiar with this thread knows I think D* is the best answer. Best of all worlds, especially when they add all the HD channels they plan to add this year. And there's talk of the new ownership of D* maybe bringing back Tivo!

Scott

I'm not a Charter Sub, and would never be; however let me pose a question....

What are the costs that a subscriber has to incur to get the Local HD Channels from Charter?

Let's say I have basic cable and I want to get just the local channels in HD from charter,
what is the cost? Can I get the locals in HD without any other HD package? According to
their website I would have to pay $6.95 to lease the HD box, but what about the programming
for it?

DirecTV/DISH provides the locals to us at a cost, it is like $5.00 a month or something like
that, so they clearly charge something and are pretty upfront about it, so they in turn pay
the local providers a fee.

Currently I am a Charter sub, and quite frankly I have hated every minute of it. I have a couple of questions for you guys with Direct TV though. First, I get my phone and internet as well as cable through Charter. Do any of you guys get your internet via satellite or do you all use DSL? Also, with Direct TV, I would have to run multiple lines to my existing cable locations. Is this difficult and messy?

I have DSL, I got it over 7 years ago, long before Pipeline was availabe in my area.

My friend does Charter for phone and internet but uses DirecTV, I think you just have to figure
out the cost advantages.

As far as running new lines to your existing cable locations, you might be able to use the same
lines and just redirect them to a central point if they aren't there already.

I put in a video/phone/ethernet Gang box and everything goes there first, so I could use the
same cables if I ever went to .... (clears throat) Charter..

This is just not good news especially with NCAA basketball approaching and NFL play off games here. All though I have to agree with Charter, why would you pay for something eveyone else can get for free, maybe KMOV should charge more for ads on their HD channel. Once my contract is up I just might be switching but I really would hate to lose Cinemax HD it is a great channel, cropped HD or not. :(Well, the thing is, Charter's logic is rubbish.

Do you think DISH and DirecTV have just grabbed the local signals from the airwaves and stuck them up on their birds for everyone to enjoy? No -- they are paying for them.

When you boil this down, this is a great example of what happens when extra-market forces (goverment) corrupt the free market. Because cable has gotten a three-decade free ride on the coattails of government intervention, they believe that should be the "natural state." In fact, the natural state is you get what you can negotiate.

I still think that Charter and cable companies have significant leverage over Belo and Sinclair -- as more and more consumers buy HDTVs and begin to exclusively view HD programming, the local stations ultimately have significant advertising revenue at risk if cable isn't carrying its signals.

But the idea that cable is going to be able to maintain the "we be special, we don't need to pay anything" status quo is slipping away as more broadcasters put a price tag on their digital programming. And because satellite pays, they are going to have a hard time making a case they shouldn't pay, particularly when they continue to get the analog stations for free (while satellite also pays for those).

Free market rules.

One nice side benefit to this KMOV development: If Charter doesn't carry KMOV, then that makes it a little less likely that KMOV will put a lot of effort/money behind a multicast channel, because there wouldn't be any prospect of cable carriage (then again, maybe that's an opening for AT&T U-Verse?).

I also wonder if the P-D reporter may have overlooked an associated Belo demand that Charter must carry any subchannels KMOV initiates via multicasting as a precondition for carrying the HD stream. It would be pretty short-sighted of Belo/KMOV not to roll those dice together.

But don't you need multiple lines running to each satellite box if you want the multiple tuners? Right now I have two of the Charter Moxi HD-DVR boxes and the one thing that is nice about them is they need only 1 coax coming into them. If I wanted 2 Direct TV HD-DVR, I'd have to shell out $300 for each and run additional coax lines to each location.....man, I hate Charter.

But don't you need multiple lines running to each satellite box if you want the multiple tuners? Right now I have two of the Charter Moxi HD-DVR boxes and the one thing that is nice about them is they need only 1 coax coming into them. If I wanted 2 Direct TV HD-DVR, I'd have to shell out $300 for each and run additional coax lines to each location.....man, I hate Charter.

You are correct. The new HR20 does have a single cable solution built in, but it isn't
active yet, or for that matter I don't think the entire solution is finalized, but the box
is ready for it............

I'm not a Charter Sub, and would never be; however let me pose a question....

What are the costs that a subscriber has to incur to get the Local HD Channels from Charter?

Let's say I have basic cable and I want to get just the local channels in HD from charter,
what is the cost? Can I get the locals in HD without any other HD package? According to
their website I would have to pay $6.95 to lease the HD box, but what about the programming
for it?


When I signed up for Charter HD I was told the local HD was free, the HD fee is for the non locals. Just checked my last bill, $6.99 for the hd tier and $1.50 for the cable card.

I have a coworker who just tried to get a HD box from Charter and he was told he would have to wait 4-8 weeks to get one....

The following, from the TV Predictions newsletter, indicates that the HD TiVo is experiencing additional problems beyond occasionally choppy sound, namely missed recordings or premature deletions.

http://www.tvpredictions.com/directvtivo010307.htm

I haven't seen this myself, but I have noticed over the last couple of days that my TiVo has become extremely slow in bringing up menus like the "Now Playing List." But I attribute this to the fact that I'm currently running near capacity on storage -- definitely need to weed out some of the Conan, Leno and Letterman music segment recordings. This is the only time I really wish I had a way of offloading recordings to other media.

Yes, my understanding, confirmed previously by Charter insiders, is that the local HD channels are "free," in that they are bundled together with the hardware fee.

But as the pendulum swings back in the direction of broadcasters, this arrangement is probably facing its last days. Even if cable only ends up paying the same or a reduced fee relative to satellite, you can be sure that this cost (if it happens) will be passed along, just as it is to satellite customers.

DirecTV/DISH provides the locals to us at a cost, it is like $5.00 a month or something like
that, so they clearly charge something and are pretty upfront about it, so they in turn pay
the local providers a fee.

D* no longer does the locals ala carte, they're included in your monthly sub now and I do not believe there's an option to drop them (because I would, since I watch all of my locals OTA). $44.99 for Total Choice (155 channels) including the locals.

The following, from the TV Predictions newsletter, indicates that the HD TiVo is experiencing additional problems beyond occasionally choppy sound, namely missed recordings or premature deletions.

http://www.tvpredictions.com/directvtivo010307.htm

I haven't seen this myself, but I have noticed over the last couple of days that my TiVo has become extremely slow in bringing up menus like the "Now Playing List." But I attribute this to the fact that I'm currently running near capacity on storage -- definitely need to weed out some of the Conan, Leno and Letterman music segment recordings. This is the only time I really wish I had a way of offloading recordings to other media.I'm having new problems with 6.3b. I noticed last night that some first run programs this week "Won't Record" which means the Season Pass is screwed up. I had to set them to explicitly record. I may just try doing a complete reset and redo everything from scracth once I've gotten thru a bunch of motorsports programming I have recorded. I'm sure that's what D* will tell me to do anyway if I call tech support.

Ebay? Local stores too. An old D* tuner will work great for over the air and you don't need to activate it.

Scott


This is probably the stupidiest question every asked but does the "old D* tuner" have to be HD? And does D* mean Dish and/or Direct? My son-in-law gets his Dish HD set-up today and has an old Direct TV reciever, will that work?

I'm having new problems with 6.3b. I noticed last night that some first run programs this week "Won't Record" which means the Season Pass is screwed up. I had to set them to explicitly record. I may just try doing a complete reset and redo everything from scracth once I've gotten thru a bunch of motorsports programming I have recorded. I'm sure that's what D* will tell me to do anyway if I call tech support.

I noticed the same thing yesterday. I have my HD Tivo (not at 6.3b yet) set to record PTI and Rome on ESPN, and it didn't show either program on the "to do" list yesterday afternoon. I forced a call, still didn't show up. I decided to let it go, rather than manually force the recording, and it picked up both shows anyway.

Currently I am a Charter sub, and quite frankly I have hated every minute of it. I have a couple of questions for you guys with Direct TV though. First, I get my phone and internet as well as cable through Charter. Do any of you guys get your internet via satellite or do you all use DSL? Also, with Direct TV, I would have to run multiple lines to my existing cable locations. Is this difficult and messy?

I have DSL with Centurytel along with phone.

Running multiple lines? That is a tough one to answer. It seems that satellite becomes a problem for large families with many TV's and many people wanting different channels simultaneously. this can become costly with each box costing $4.99 per month mirror charge.

If you have, like me, 2 people in the home, all you may need is two boxes. Because 2 people can only watch 2 channels simultaneously. Their are a gazillion ways to hook stuff up. Many people don't realize that you can run she signal from one box to "all TV's in the home." Of course, every TV will be on the same channel. I guess need to more about your personal situation to fully advise. Also, the home comes into play. Unfinished basement? How to run all the coax? Can a dish be mounted and get signal, etc.? Also, how apt are you at installing it all yourself? How much are you willing to pay an installer to do it all for you?

I personally have 1 HD Tivo box, 1 SD Tivo box, Xbox, DVD, Sirius Satellite going to 10 locations in my home. I can watch any box or play xbox on any TV in my home, or listen to satellite music in 10 locations. This was very easy for me to install, but I have experience doing that. I guess it all depends on what you are trying to achieve really and what you want to invest.

Scott


Scott

This is probably the stupidiest question every asked but does the "old D* tuner" have to be HD? And does D* mean Dish and/or Direct? My son-in-law gets his Dish HD set-up today and has an old Direct TV reciever, will that work?

Yes, it must be a HD receiver. I'm not at all familiar with E* stuff so maybe Ken or someone more familiar will chime in.

Scott

I'm having new problems with 6.3b. I noticed last night that some first run programs this week "Won't Record" which means the Season Pass is screwed up. I had to set them to explicitly record. I may just try doing a complete reset and redo everything from scracth once I've gotten thru a bunch of motorsports programming I have recorded. I'm sure that's what D* will tell me to do anyway if I call tech support.


I had the same problem but with 6.3a. I had the 2 L&O set to record on the Season Pass but SUV did not record for some reason. It said I change the settings somehow. I need to keep a close watch on this now.

On another note, I use Charter to record all my HD KMOV. It will be a bummer if they drop the HD feed.

If charter does remove KMOVhd, I will be forced to look at sat. I've been with Charter for over 15 years and have had only minor problems. I've got the MOXI Mate and absolutely love it. But with no KMOV, I will leave.

You guys are always talking about birds,HR20, 6.3A and all kinds of stuff I have no idea about. Where does a newbie go to learn about everything in the sat world?

BTW, according to the online chat with charter, they told me it goes away on 1/4/07

Tim

My wife noticed last night that the Season Passes were screwed up, nothing going to record.

I looked at our other one, and it has the same problem. It is almost like the stupid thing isn't
looking ahead in the guide....Oh no. Don't tell me the HR20 is more stable.......

This is one HR10-250 on 6.3a and one on 6.3b

If charter does remove KMOVhd, I will be forced to look at sat. I've been with Charter for over 15 years and have had only minor problems. I've got the MOXI Mate and absolutely love it. But with no KMOV, I will leave.

You guys are always talking about birds,HR20, 6.3A and all kinds of stuff I have no idea about. Where does a newbie go to learn about everything in the sat world?

BTW, according to the online chat with charter, they told me it goes away on 1/4/07

Tim

DBStalk.com is good. We can answer your questions, too. Then point you to the
correct forum.

BTW, the CBS is home of the SUPERBOWL this year.

The article said MLB and cable execs have been frustrated with Extra Innings' slow growth peaking at roughly 750,000 subs last season and teams were picking up individual payouts of about $2 million each. By comparison, SBJ said, the NFL's Sunday Ticket had nearly 2 million subs with DIRECTV paying the league close to $700 million per year through 2010.
It's apples and oranges.

Does MLB really not see the difference between a viewer watching 16 games per week, and one watching 15 games EVERY day of the week? If MLB dropped the out-of-market bounds of MLB EI, then they would see their subs. Let us watch our Cards games listening to the other team's announcers....who wouldn't go for that!!

I have had MLB EI for several years. It gives me the opportunity to "see" some teams and get to "know" them better, than I would be able to do with just the GOTW schedule.

That being said, the MLB EI package is not nearly the product NFL Sunday Ticket is. If I had Sunday Ticket (I don't), but if I did, and then my provider dropped it, I'd be pissed! Losing MLB EI falls into the "oh well" category. For me, anyway.

pwsher,
Nope, your SIL cannot use a D* (D*=DirecTv; E*=Echostar-DishNetwork) receiver with Dish software. Also, all E* HD is MPEG4 now, so only the DISH VIP series receivers will receive DISH HD programming.

Don't forget that the market is flooded with Baseball coverage.

ESPN, ESPN2, Fox, Fox Sports Net, WGN, TBS.......

I was in the Charter office yesterday in St. Peters. The guy there said CBS goes away on 1/4/07. My father was with me and he was trying to get an HD box. They told us that "corporate" was telling them to say at least 2 weeks. But internally they know it will be a month or more. Their phone service and internet are fine. I had no problems with it. Their TV is horrible, but a good point was made above in that if you have several TV's D* can get expensive. Plus, Dish will only install for free and give you hardware for 4 separate TV's. I have 6, so I have to get creative with the wiring. They do have diplexers that can send a signal both ways on one line That is how Dish did my dual tuner install. I had my Dish installed on 12/26. On 12/31 it was broke. Now I have to wait until 1/6/07 for someone to come out. I can't say that I am happy with Dish and I have only had it for a week.

One other note is that the Motorola boxes from Charter does not have an antenna input. So you must switch inputs on the TV to get to the OTA. Not a big deal, but just another little thing that digs on you nerves over time.

It's apples and oranges.I agree completely, and actually started down that very road in my note on this story (using the same fruity terminology), but decided instead to confine myself to the competitive angle.

Besides, no one can really help MLB (or any other sport) with their deep-seated "penis envy" issues vis-a-vis the NFL. ;)

Loosing 2 local channels in HD may put things over the top for me... Especially since my TV's tuner is not working too well. My contract just expired with Charter so I was already going to have to play the game of getting a retention offer to lower my bill. I can handle no ABC, ABC is probably bottom of my list of needed local channels in HD... Everyone knew this time was coming as I have read previous articles related to this for some time saying that sinclair was just the first to start asking for money. Now the time has come for Charter to suck it up and pay the bill. If that means Charter has to start charging for locals like Dish does then so be it... Missing 2 channels is too much for me, especially as shows slowly come back from the holiday break.




Next Subject related to my TV Tuners problem. Anyone have any ideas what may be going on with my TV Tuners??? It worked no problem when I first bought the tv but then quickly started getting picky with what channels it would receive. It got to the point where I had to 'milk' the TV in order for it to show me any OTA programming. By milking I mean I would flip around to several dead stations that would say 'Weak Signal' until I finally got a white static on the screen of a dead station. The moment I would get white static instead of 'weak signal' i could then tune just fine to any OTA station(minus Fox & UPN). Lately though I have been unable to tune any stations. When I did tune stations before signals was usually a bit past the halfway point on my TV and had very little if any pixel issues when watching programming.

Is my tuner just dead? Are there any tweaks? I am afraid of calling samsung to start replacing parts because my TV was calibrated a couple months back. Also this is just using an Indoor antenna.

-Phatty

I find it interesting that the PD article said other HD stations are available on Charter, ignoring that ABC has always been missing.

hfthomp,

I am happy with D* and use Centurytel for phone and DSL. For those thinking of switching to sat, the deals available almost always include wiring to all the rooms getting a receiver. You may have to pay extra to get the line fished through the wall and get a box and outlet cover (I was quoted $40). Otherwise they just drill a hole through the floor for the cable.

I have both an HR20 and an HR10, so right now I have redundancy for all my new recordings. I still have a lot of recorded shows on the the Tivo to catch up on, but everything new is focusing on the HR20 since it is hooked up to the 5.1 sound system.

I agree that dbstalk has the most complete and updated information for everything satellite related. The avsforum also has areas for HD recorders and general information.

Mike

My wife noticed last night that the Season Passes were screwed up, nothing going to record.

The same thing happened to me one of my R10's w/6.3a.
Season pass was there but it never detected any upcoming episodes.

I manually recorded them and it seemed to go back to normal after a day or two.
I may have rebooted during that time but can't remember.

3.15 is looking better and better these days ;)

Good luck,
Token

Hey when I called Dish for some info, I specifically asked if I needed a landline for updates, etc. I used to have Dish and seem to remember it being a necessity. The CSR said "absolutely not" but I think he was just trying to sale me. I don't want to pay for a landline for any reason. So do you need a phone line for Dish and/or Direct?

DirecTV says you do for mirroring of services to other receivers and for sports subscriptions,
but not all of mine are plugged into a phone line.

For the DirecTV Tivo units, yes you need a phone line for software updates to be activated and
for enhanced Guide Data.

Fir Dish you don't but you are charged $5/each for dual tuner units that aren't connected to phone lines.

Cheers,

Fir Dish you don't but you are charged $5/each for dual tuner units that aren't connected to phone lines.

Cheers,

How often do they test that? Or is it an honor system thing.

I just switched a receiver location and had to buy a wireless phone jack to put there. About every other day it seems I would get the message telling me I needed to connect it to a phone line to avoid the fee. I am with Dish.

I just signed up for dish. They first asked me if I would have it hooked up during the phone call. Then the installer told me I had to hook it up. Since the receivers are on the first floor and the basement is not finished, I was able to put phone jacks in the wall. You can get the phone/coax wall plates at HD or Lowes. I never had mine complain about not having them plugged in, but it was only working for 4 days. I believe my dish got moved during the high winds on Sunday.
There is a 50 dollar activation fee, but it can be waived if you sign up for 18 months. I think it is worth paying the 50 bucks to avoid being stuck with a company.
I also learned that once they put the dish on your property it becomes yours. If you cancel, they send you boxes with RMA numbers for shipping back the receivers only.

I'm with D*. Two Tivo's and one HD box. I don't have to connect anythng to phone lines.

Scott

I've been fooling around with the Pinnacle HD Pro Stick on my laptop so I can get "Lost" in HD when it returns next month. But I do not want to start recording CBS stuff as well when Charter pulls the KMOV plug.
I had a guy from Hi Fi Fo Fum come out years ago to see whether the tall trees around my house would block sat signals, and the answer was yes. The most obstructive tree is in a neighbor's yard. Mr. Warmth would not be inclined to trim his tree to solve my TV problems.
Sooo.... years later, would it be worth having someone come out to check for sat reception again? Has enough changed with technology, sat locations etc?
And most importantly, any reccs on who to call? Would Direct TV or Dish send someone w/o a signed service deal?
thx...

You can call them and ask for an install and then someone will come out. They will be able
to look at it at that point and see if you can get installed. If not, you aren't out anything.

What type of mounting options are you going to give them?

Roof
Pole
Side of house

You can call them and ask for an install and then someone will come out. They will be able
to look at it at that point and see if you can get installed. If not, you aren't out anything.

What type of mounting options are you going to give them?

Roof
Poll
Side of house

All options are open...

Then give one of them a call. Just decide on a provider. Each have pros/cons.

The cable companies keep going back to....why should they pay for something their customers can receive over the air, for free.

Well, until the UHF antenna comes embedded in the "windshield" of the TV....it ain't free.
Some have to purchase an antenna...some a pre-amp...some a ATSC tuner....others, need to have it installed...bottom line is...it ain't free. And....what about recording? Charter's DVR's don't do OTA....correct? When you have a Charter HD DVR, can you integrate your TV's ATSC tuner to the DVR?

I think the Charter runs a much greater risk of subscriber defectors over ABC and CBS than they do over MLB EI. I also believe if Charter told their subscribers it is going to cost another $5./mo for all the digital locals, it would have little effect. Doesn't CBS have the Superbowl this year?

As a side note, for any considering it, Satellite Internet is expensive. The start-up fees are high (250+), and the monthly service fee is high. If you break your Charter Bundle, and cannot get DSL, the best option is to pay for stand-alone Pipeline.

Doug,
Yeah, I kinda read that in between. If MLB was smart, and they broke the out-of-market guideline, they could line the pockets of the clubs with additional revenue from MLB EI. Because of MLB's standing agreements with the RSN's, I doubt that's a feasible option.

Is it better to go through a Best Buy or other retailer for sat service or get it directly from the provider?

Ok, if I wake up tomorrow and CBS is gone from our cable box, I think I'm going to switch to DishNetwork. My one question is about the local HD chanels over dish- do they come by sat, or OTA? If they come OTA, how well do they integrate with the other sat chanels in the program guide, tuner, ect. Thanks for any help you can give.

tcfila,
With Dish, much better off going direct. I don't know about DirecTv.

der_kommissar,
Yes, the 4 major STL DT locals are on Dish SAT. You can also have them OTA. All Dish HD receivers have OTA ATSC tuners built in.
The guide and DVR functions are completely seamless, whichever way you choose to receive them.

The major networks ABC, CBS, FOX, NBC come via Satellite. If you want Channel 11 or the Digital Sub channels like weatherplus, you need an antenna.

As far as Best Buy or the provider itself, I would say it depends. If you get it from Best Buy
you can get your reward zone points or whatever, but you still have to setup an install.

I would think you would get a better deal if you called the provider yourself. As you can
do the I'm a cable customer thinking of switching. Best Buy / CC don't do the dealing you
could do with the provider, they only give you the National deal.

I have found it easier to make deals with DirecTV than with Dish. Just my personal experience.

If anyone wants my customer number for a referral.............Let me know :D

i am just mad as hell about losing a channel on the hd line up with charter. they wont through in a discount for taking one away!

i am just mad as hell about losing a channel on the hd line up with charter. they wont through in a discount for taking one away!
Does anyone know what Charter does in their other markets with regard to paying/not paying for carriage of digital signals?

i am just mad as hell about losing a channel on the hd line up with charter. they wont through in a discount for taking one away!

Probably because in their mind, they weren't charging you for the channel.

i dont think i am going to switch just yet. i was considering a new hdtv anyways, my current set is about 4 1/2 years old, without an hd-tuner. i was thinking about buying a full blown set with hd-tuner and getting the OTA signals for my locals. I hear they are much clearer than what comes through on the sat or the cable. i hear the cable and sat co's compress the signal a bit. one question, it may be the wrong place to ask, but is it a must to put an antenna on the roof of my home to get that done?

is it a must to put an antenna on the roof of my home to get that done?

It all depends on your location. If you live in a valley, on top of a hill and other
factors. Some get fine reception with a indoor UHF antenna. I have to use a
external DB8 on my roof with an amplifier. So it is a lot of trial and error.

I just switched a receiver location and had to buy a wireless phone jack to put there. About every other day it seems I would get the message telling me I needed to connect it to a phone line to avoid the fee. I am with Dish.

I wish I had known you needed a wireless phone jack. When I bought mine, it wasn't cheap. I no longer need it. If anyone needs one, PM me.

This is becoming a weekly invite, LOL, but any Charter faithfuls who want to view the NFL playoffs in glorious HD this weekend are more than welcome at my house. Of course, you'll have to put up with a perfect HD signal from D* on a 133" screen. :)

Scott

Does anyone know what Charter does in their other markets with regard to paying/not paying for carriage of digital signals?Charter's "no pay" policy with Sinclair stations in the past has been a corporate policy -- this is NOT something they are doing specifcially to "punish" St. Louis customers.

This is becoming a weekly invite, LOL, but any Charter faithfuls who want to view the NFL playoffs in glorious HD this weekend are more than welcome at my house. Of course, you'll have to put up with a perfect HD signal from D* on a 133" screen. :)

Scott

If it was 144" maybe, but 133" will just mess with my mind.

but is it a must to put an antenna on the roof of my home to get that done?

Go to antennaweb.org and put in your address, zip code, if you are near an airport or other obstruction, one or two story house. Then click the radio button for Show Digital Stations Only. It will tell you how far you are from the towers, the degrees and recommend an antenna type by color.

...it may be the wrong place to ask, but is it a must to put an antenna on the roof of my home to get that done?OFF TOPIC ALERT!!! :eek:

Oh, wait a minute...that should be ON TOPIC ALERT -- it's the exception that proves why we were here in the first place... :D

Don't mean to make fun at your expense, cd -- it's just that this thread started as the place to discuss local OTA reception and these days we have a tendency to cover everything but that subject...

Anyway, in most situations, an attic antenna will work for you, assuming you are within 25 or 30 miles of the towers and have unobstructed line-of-sight. You might even be able to get by with an indoor antenna, though that's obviously going to be a bit more hit and miss.

There's more information on antenna reception, tower locations, etc. in the first couple of messages in this thread.

You're right Doug, but I kind of like the "St. Louis general what ever you want to talk about thread." I suppose if a mod deleted all ot the truly "off topic" posts, this thread would suck. It would also be 80% smaller. Off course, this post would be deleted too.

Scott

Does anyone know what Charter does in their other markets with regard to paying/not paying for carriage of digital signals?


Charter does the same everywhere as far as refusing to pay for the local channels. I believe Charter is slowly becoming one of the few providers that has yet to cry uncle to the greedy ways of companies like Sinclair and now this other one.

-Phatty

I still don't see how this is greed.

Charter's "no pay" policy with Sinclair stations in the past has been a corporate policy -- this is NOT something they are doing specifcially to "punish" St. Louis customers.

BACK TO TOPIC

That just really stinks that Charter has that policy. When I first got HD service with Charter I was impressed with the quality of the signal for all the channels, I was just really "wow'd" with the amount of content that CBS/Channel 4 was showing in HD. I dont know about everyone else, but I will just about watch anything in HD. I would even watch "crocheting" in HD if it was available. This is just poor customer retention/service on Charter's part. This incident along with them announcing they are jacking up the rates. Charter's image in St Louis is about as good as AmerenUE's.

BACK TO TOPIC

That just really stinks that Charter has that policy. When I first got HD service with Charter I was impressed with the quality of the signal for all the channels, I was just really "wow'd" with the amount of content that CBS/Channel 4 was showing in HD. I dont know about everyone else, but I will just about watch anything in HD. I would even watch "crocheting" in HD if it was available. This is just poor customer retention/service on Charter's part. This incident along with them announcing they are jacking up the rates. Charter's image in St Louis is about as good as AmerenUE's.


Come on, Charter has had CrochetHD for months now

Completely Off Topic :eek:

But, has anybody been getting the "Server is busy" errors from AVS recently?
Anybody know the people that run the servers? Maybe beef them up a little to handle the load. Kind of aggravating when I am trying to avoid work and I get the "server is busy" error.

I have had a post deleted before. I didn't realize it was THAT off topic, but oh well. This kind of banter we have had today is how I gain more info than any other way here. I have personally thanked a couple of you more than once. But I want to say I am very happy with my current set up, and as I told Doug and Ken I am even now taking on some DIY tech projects I NEVER would have attempted in the past (even though many of you would view them as simple as tying your shoes). I have all of you to thank for all of it though. Even if I am happy with Dish and Scott won't stop talking about his DirecTV, :).

Aside: Is anyone else getting "The server is too busy" message?

I still don't see how this is greed.Ditto. This is a business negotiation and these things need to be worked out in the marketplace between sellers and buyers.

The same goes for the NFL Network -- while I don't think the NFL Network's demand that it be made part of a basic cable subscription package is valid, I can't really condemn them for "trying it on." If all the cable companies met the NFL terms, then the NFL would be justified, because the market agreed that they have that sort of value.

But it doesn't look to be playing out that way for them...

Completely Off Topic :eek:

But, has anybody been getting the "Server is busy" errors from AVS recently?
Anybody know the people that run the servers? Maybe beef them up a little to handle the load. Kind of aggravating when I am trying to avoid work and I get the "server is busy" error.In speaking offline with one of the moderators recently, he told me that they recently passed the 250,000 member mark and there are no signs of things slowing down (no doubt due to the uptake of home theater, HDTV, etc by a growing number of consumers).

It seems they are just having a tough time keeping up with the growth -- nice problem, no?

I still don't see how this is greed.

Well its doing business I suppose. Back in the past laws were put in place forcing Cable providers to carry all the local channels... Now that people are hooked on cable they are turning things around and wanting to charge to carry the signal. So yeah its not 'greed' its just a business trying to find more areas to get money in their pockets.

It just sucks since companies like Charter do not have a choice in the matter since they are not allowed to bring in out of area feeds of network stations. If they were allowed to do that then you know that kind of competition would keep local networks free. I know I could care less if I am watching STL ABC or Chicago's ABC channel in HD. I just want ABC in HD.

As I said before though its time to cry uncle, send out a letter to all customers informing them of the rate increase and the exact company/channels causing the increases on the bill. Other than that let the customers decide if they are willing to pay 5bux for ABC & now CBS or whatever the charge would be.

-Phatty

Aside: Is anyone else getting "The server is too busy" message?

Not today, but I did get it a lot yesterday.

My HD D* Tivo had a very hard time connecting when I tried forcing a call. I had to try several different numbers. My To Do List seems to have fixed itself. 24 is finally showing up, but no option for ch 88, only 2-1. I guess I can manually set it up when it airs.

How often do they test that? Or is it an honor system thing.

It's not an honor system. It phones home every so often to report on PPV viewings.

The CID info (actually the higher level ANI info) is what is used for validating that the receiver is installed at the location you claim. If the receiver ANI doesn't match up to the account number it's flagged as potentially troublesome.

This is usually handled via an audit where you have to validate the receivers in your house.

Cheers,

Even if I am happy with Dish and Scott won't stop talking about his DirecTV, :).

Wait.....when did Scott get DirecTV??
I musta missed that :D

In speaking offline with one of the moderators recently, he told me that they recently passed the 250,000 member mark and there are no signs of things slowing down (no doubt due to the uptake of home theater, HDTV, etc by a growing number of consumers).

It seems they are just having a tough time keeping up with the growth -- nice problem, no?
More hits = higher advertising rates = additional server capacity.
Sounds like we're amidst a growing pain.

Good for AVS!!

phatty,

I agree with your basic point about the lack of networking choice and that's something that is totally anti-competitive and can be laid entirely at the feet of the National Association of Broadcasters.

But I don't think that Charter is asking for an alternative source, because they know to get something other than the local stations they'd have to pay for that, too. And their start/end point for this whole issue is that they should not have to pay, because they've never paid.

And that's no longer a defensible position, in any way, shape or form.

phatty,

I agree with your basic point about the lack of networking choice and that's something that is totally anti-competitive and can be laid entirely at the feet of the National Association of Broadcasters.

But I don't think that Charter is asking for an alternative source, because they know to get something other than the local stations they'd have to pay for that, too. And their start/end point for this whole issue is that they should not have to pay, because they've never paid.

And that's no longer a defensible position, in any way, shape or form.


Other than arranging on how to receive the transmission of an out of town station I would bet they could find many stations willing to let Charter retransmit for free. The additional viewers gained for smaller area stations like say something out of cape Gerardo would be worth it for a station to offer it for free. Especially as the number of HD Viewers increase.. And even if not free once you have that kind of a competition allowed it would be reasonable priced.

Maybe not though, who knows, all I know is it sucks that the local networks could demand whatever they want from Charter and they don't have any other choice other than to pay it, or be left without that network feed. Unfortunately we know nothing like this is going to happen, and who knows when/if Charter is going to realize they can't go long missing 2 major networks. Even if I was getting my channels in OTA properly not being able to use my moxi to record the shows makes it less likely I will be watching anything on CBS until this issue is resolved or I make the switch.


-Phatty

Have I mentioned lately that I love Directv? :)

Scott

Have I mentioned lately that I love Directv? :)

Scott
:D

...I would bet they could find many stations willing to let Charter retransmit for free.I think self-interest works against this scenario, as the broadcaster's overriding instinct is to protect the local monopoly rather than trying to go out and compete for business that would undermine a fellow broadcaster's monopoly. The logical extension of doing that would be to undermine their own monopoly.

And if they're doing it for free, what's in for them exactly? St. Louis viewers aren't going to hire a roofer from CG or drive down there to buy a car, so it's not like the stations are in a position to jack up the ad rates as a result of more (out-of-market) viewers.

What am I missing?

Have I mentioned lately that I love Directv? :)C'mon now, come clean -- how much are you pocketing for these "virtual" banner ads? :)

I've been doing a long term project at home transferring all my MST3K VHS episodes to DVD.

It has made me realize there's nothing really good on TV anymore anyhow.

I am so glad I called the other week to switch to Dish. F-Charter. :D

I am so glad I have a 100-year old oak tree blocking my view of the southern sky, leaving me few options... :rolleyes:

I still don't see how this is greed.

Greed in my mind is when someone wants unreasonable compensation for a product or service, but demands it because the buyer has no other place from which to obtain it.

IMO, that is clearly what Belo and Sinclair are doing to Charter. KTVI and KSDK apparently were able to reach a deal with Charter that they could live with, so it logical that these other two companies want more than the others got. Belo and Sinclair were the holdouts back when D* and E* were negotiating to carry analog locals, and now they are doing it to Charter.

The FCC should settle this by defining and capping what is "reasonable" for recarriage of free airwaves.

Also, don't forget that KMOV is about to launch their 4-2 news channel. I don't think the timing of this and their demands with Charter are coincidences.

Scott - I am with you on loving my DirecTV! :D :D

Mike

I am so glad Charter is dropping CBS. I hope they drop NBC next.

I am so glad I have a 100-year old oak tree blocking my view of the southern sky, leaving me few options... :rolleyes:

yeah, what he said...

Anyone here know Rush Limbaugh was born in Cape Girardeau?
Things that make you go, Hmmm.


Anyway, so nationwide, there exist no digital carriage agreements between Charter, and Belo or Sinclair? Is that correct?

Ken,

The Belo situation appears to be a new development, so it is possible that there were existing agreements between Charter and Belo-owned stations and they have expired and Belo is asking for new terms for a future agreement. Or it's possible that there were no formal written agreements in the early days of digital broadcasting and now Belo has come along and presented terms for formal agreements.

In the case of Sinclair, this company has been demanding payment from the get-go of digital broadcasting, so it's highly unlikely that there are any Charter localities that carry Sinclair stations. But, of course, there might be one or two that snuck in during the early days, but based on things Jim has said here in the past, all of the Sinclair station negotiations are now handled corporate to corporate, rather than locally.

No doubt Belo (and other broadcasters) have been monitoring the developments with Sinclair stations around the country, and the fact that some cable and satellite operators have reached agreements with certain Sinclair stations has convinced that they should be doing something similar.

I fail to see any benefit from FCC involvement in setting rates for this sort of thing. The FCC, like most of the rest of the federal regulatory bureaucracy, does more harm than good, and I have little doubt they would follow in that tradition here. The value of these feeds should be decided in the marketplace. If the broadcasters demand too much, they will lose viewers and if they can live with that, good for them; if not, they will eventually back down and come around to seeking something more reasonable.

I just got a message on my Series 3 Tivo that channel 784 (HD CBS) has been dropped from my lineup. It is still broadcasting though. I am so glad the new Tivo can get OTA as well. It looks like it automagically moved my season passes to OTA 4-1. I sure don't miss my old Moxi...

Greed in my mind is when someone wants unreasonable compensation for a product or service, but demands it because the buyer has no other place from which to obtain it.

IMO, that is clearly what Belo and Sinclair are doing to Charter. KTVI and KSDK apparently were able to reach a deal with Charter that they could live with, so it logical that these other two companies want more than the others got.I don't think it's necessarily clear or logical at all.

Consider:

* The fact is, we don't know what Belo has asked from Charter in terms of compensation -- maybe they are asking for 1 cent per customer per year, but Charter defines reasonable as 0 cents per customer per year. Just because the parties have failed to reach an agreement doesn't necessarily make the Belo offer either unreasonable or greedy.

* How do you factor in the variables of Charter's wobbly financial situation? It's certainly plausible that regardless of whether a local station/broadcasting company makes a reasonable offer or an unreasonable one, Charter simply may not have the financial wherewithal to pay for something that it has counted on getting for free.

Multiply this sort of unexpected cost times five or six stations in each of the markets that Charter operates in, and it may just be the straw that breaks the camel's back. Should the FCC be in a position to force Charter to pay for all these local feeds, even though it may end up pushing the company over the cliff?

* Perhaps KSDK and KTVI are not seeking any sort of compensation and are content to go forward on the no-fee basis as in the past. Should that sort of arrangement then define what is and isn't reasonable for every other station and Pay TV provider?

* Maybe KSDK/Gannett were able to agree to carriage of digital subchannels in return for no digital fee. Well that won't do, will it? it's far too nebulous. Better for the FCC mandarins to determine how much money should change hands (and maybe whether payment should be in small bills or large ones). :)

This is why the idea of the FCC getting involved in this sort of thing creates more problems than it ultimately solves.

Yes, getting these things worked out can be messy and disruptive in the short term, but the market is the only place where value can ultimately be determined fairly. The answer of fair compensation is not lurking in a spreadsheet at the FCC.

Other than arranging on how to receive the transmission of an out of town station I would bet they could find many stations willing to let Charter retransmit for free. The additional viewers gained for smaller area stations like say something out of cape Gerardo would be worth it for a station to offer it for free. Especially as the number of HD Viewers increase.. And even if not free once you have that kind of a competition allowed it would be reasonable priced.

Maybe not though, who knows, all I know is it sucks that the local networks could demand whatever they want from Charter and they don't have any other choice other than to pay it, or be left without that network feed. Unfortunately we know nothing like this is going to happen, and who knows when/if Charter is going to realize they can't go long missing 2 major networks. Even if I was getting my channels in OTA properly not being able to use my moxi to record the shows makes it less likely I will be watching anything on CBS until this issue is resolved or I make the switch.


-Phatty

You really don't want to pay for CBS in HD do you? Why not just get a tuner (assuming your TV doesn't already have one) and an antennea? Get all the local stations for free.

I mean, Katie Couric's ratings are abysmal. Nobody wants to watch her in analog much less HD. CBS is so inept they can't even video Survivor in HD. I wouldn't pay for that.

Anybody know if Belo is asking other cable companies for $$$ in different cities?

Yes, there are reports of the same in Dallas and Norfolk, VA -- I'm sure there are others.

These tend to be corporate decisions, not something decided by the local stations (unless the local station is locally owned).

"....What frustrates me is when I deal with Dish and other DBS firms, they recognize the value in those broadcast signals. [referring to digital] That's in stark contrast to cable, which refuses to recognize the value...."

Interesting article on the current topic
HERE (http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0082/t.473.html)

This is why the idea of the FCC getting involved in this sort of thing creates more problems than it ultimately solves.

Yes, getting these things worked out can be messy and disruptive in the short term, but the market is the only place where value can ultimately be determined fairly. The answer of fair compensation is not lurking in a spreadsheet at the FCC.
Doug,
Would that not be exactly what was DE-regulated in the earlier part of this decade, or is that something else I'm remembering?

Ken,

Thanks for the link -- interesting reading.

I agree about the difference in how satellite engages with local stations and how cable treats them like the red-headed stepchild.

Is there any evidence that the fees Belo or Sinclair is asking from cable higher than what they've asked/agreed with satellite carriers? While there seems to be lots of logjams on the cable side, I can't recall reading about markets where either DISH or DirecTV aren't in a position to offer the four major networks in HD.

Deals seem to be getting done because that's what satellite operators believe subscribers want.

Before I make the move. Do either of the sats have FSMW HD?

Before I make the move. Do either of the sats have FSMW HD?
Dish does not, and it is unlikely they will anytime in the near future.
DirecTV is much more conducive to sports programing than Dish.

Before I make the move. Do either of the sats have FSMW HD?

D* does not, but they occasionally simulcast HD stuff on Channel 95. Just like with NFL Network that is not in HD, but on Thursday and Saturday nights the game is shown on 95 in HD. D* will likely add it soon since they plan on adding up to 150 HD channels soon.

Scott

D* does not, but they occasionally simulcast HD stuff on Channel 95. Just like with NFL Network that is not in HD, but on Thursday and Saturday nights the game is shown on 95 in HD. D* will likely add it soon since they plan on adding up to 150 HD channels soon.

Scott
Scott,
I think you're probably correct, in that, the FoxSportsNet HD's will be part of the additions to the new sats. Was FSNMW one of the ones News Corp recently dealt off? I can't remember which they were :confused:

I hadn't heard of any specific plans D* has with regard to their new capacity, other than its ability for carriage of 150 HD channels. Capacity and availability differ. Given there aren't many national HD's available out there, it's been my assumption much of the new capacity will be used for local spots. Local HD's, RSN HD's, etc. Is that your thoughts also?

Ken,

I think what you're referring to is the Satellite Home Viewer Improvement Act, passed by Congress in 1999. Here's a fact sheet Q&A that summarizes what that law entails.

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/shva/shviafac.html

Don't know if anyone else encountered this, but earlier this evening I was trying to post here and received the following message:
____________________________________________________________ _______

Google is overloading our system and we needed to close the site to make the Googlebot go away. We will reopen as soon as we can.

If someone from Google sees this, please contact us.

Thank you.
____________________________________________________________ _______

I guess this explains all of the "server too busy" messages seen throughout the day on Wednesday.

Cwazy webbots... :(

Ken,

FSN Midwest was not among the three regional sports nets that News Corp. sold to Liberty as part of the DirecTV divestiture.

On the other hand, I think it's likely that DISH will have FSN MW in roughly the same time frame as DirecTV. At this point, it's difficult for me to see DirecTV getting a big jump on DISH on this sort of thing, based on the way things have played out in the past couple of years.

Don't know if anyone else encountered this, but earlier this evening I was trying to post here and received the following message:
____________________________________________________________ _______

Google is overloading our system and we needed to close the site to make the Googlebot go away. We will reopen as soon as we can.

If someone from Google sees this, please contact us.

Thank you.
____________________________________________________________ _______

I guess this explains all of the "server too busy" messages seen throughout the day on Wednesday.

Cwazy webbots... :(

Yes, I saw the same message. Apparently, there were a lot of messages lost. Some nasty business is going on.

As an update to my recent projector postings, thought I'd throw this out there. The Sharp 20000 projector is a little dimmer than I'm used to, so I started looking into a higher gain screen to replace my Stewart Firehawk. The one I'm leaning toward most is the Da-Lite High Power. My projector placement is going to have to change radically, but that's a compromise I'm willing to make. Since I'd been pretty happy with the Firehawk, I hadn't looked into different screens for years. I found out that to get high gain with this particular screen, you have to have the projection lens as close as possible to eye level (in a 360 degree cone). The further away you get, the less gain you realize. I got a sample from Da-Lite and positioned it on the surface of the Firehawk. As I moved my eye closer to the projection lens, the sample lit up like a torch. The one thing the sample can't do (since it's about 6"x6") is give you an idea of how the whole image will look. Does anyone around have or have you seen a High Power screen?

Ken,

FSN Midwest was not among the three regional sports nets that News Corp. sold to Liberty as part of the DirecTV divestiture.

On the other hand, I think it's likely that DISH will have FSN MW in roughly the same time frame as DirecTV. At this point, it's difficult for me to see DirecTV getting a big jump on DISH on this sort of thing, based on the way things have played out in the past couple of years.

I thought FSN-MW was only one of the two regional sports networks that don't have a dedicated HD channel?

Does anyone around have or have you seen a High Power screen?

I have had the pleasure of watching on this screen in two different homes. After seeing the first my basement theatre plans started in my head.(have not started, but hope to be finished mid-year) Both would not be considered perfect setups for this screen. They are both ceiling mounts, so the highest gain is back towards the projector itself. Both rooms were light controlled well, with one having a dark decor and another with a lighter decor. I was very impressed, not positive on the projector but I think they were a couple years old, maybe NEC, no longer made, but still a demand for used or refurbished units. I think it was rated around 1000 lumens. Both screens were around 90-100".

Anybody know if Belo is asking other cable companies for $$$ in different cities?
Cox in Phoenix, AZ is carrying KASW-DT, the Belo-owned CW affiliate here. The carriage agreement for this was struck long ago, back before Belo started asking for cash. However, Cox is not carrying the DT versions of other Belo-owned stations in AZ, KTVK (IND) in Phoenix and KMSB (Fox) in Tucson.

I have had the pleasure of watching on this screen in two different homes. After seeing the first my basement theatre plans started in my head.(have not started, but hope to be finished mid-year) Both would not be considered perfect setups for this screen. They are both ceiling mounts, so the highest gain is back towards the projector itself. Both rooms were light controlled well, with one having a dark decor and another with a lighter decor. I was very impressed, not positive on the projector but I think they were a couple years old, maybe NEC, no longer made, but still a demand for used or refurbished units. I think it was rated around 1000 lumens. Both screens were around 90-100".

Thanks for responding. At present, my projector is ceiling mounted, too, but I think I can get the projector to within about a foot or so of eye level. Gain should be quite good from there. Do you recall any details about the overall look of the image?

Sounds like you're going to have some fun in the next few months. Let us know how the basement renovation goes.

I'll try that. I used Nero on all mine. I will try again using Imgburn.

Scott


www.slysoft.com

Can't beat the price as well as unlimited lifetime updates. Haven't found any SD discs it can't copy. I hope they have some HD products sometime in the future....

Charter has, in fact, pulled KMOV HD. The message says they are "termporarily" unable to provide the channel. Those who stick with Charter, will probably see this message for the next several years. Also, they "invite" viewers to watch the "high qualtiy digital" ...........channel 4.


What a wonderful option.

I thought FSN-MW was only one of the two regional sports networks that don't have a dedicated HD channel?
Dweebe,
I believe all of the FoxSportsNets have a separate dedicated HD channel. Perhaps what you're confusing is, FSNMW-HD and one other FSN-HD (I don't recall which one) has yet to be provisioned a slot on DISH. All of the others have already been uplinked.

Though, that was not my question. I want to know which 2 of the FoxSportNets were dealt off in the recent News Corp deal. Doug, do you recall which two they were?

If I'd pay attention, I wouldn't have to ask so many questions...AADD :o

I want to know which 2 of the FoxSportNets were dealt off in the recent News Corp deal. Doug, do you recall which two they were?Actually three FSN stations changed hands as part of the Liberty-News Corp deal -- FSN Rocky Mountain, based in Denver, Fox Sports Northwest, based in Seattle, and FSN Pittsburgh.