There are a lot of people trying to stream without a ethernet hard wired connection. Since in general the network requirements and issues for streaming content are not system specific, I thought I would start this as its on thread. I hope everyone is ok with this and will contribute their knowledge and experiences on the subject(s).

I think there are only two solutions besides hard-wired ethernet:
1.) 802.11 wireless - either ethernet bridge or usb wireless adapter, or
2.) ethernet over power (powerline) products.

I guess other network topics like samba, nfs, UPnP, ftp, etc... could be discussed here, but those may be more system dependant.

Here are the questions I have:

1.) What is generally considered acceptable bandwidth for any and all formatted HD content and then std definition (SD) content? What I mean is, for each, what bandwidth would be adequate regardless of whether it is MPEG, WMF, AVI, XVID, etc... with DTS, Dolby Surround, etc...

2.) How do the different video formats/codec's rank in order of bandwidth requirements?

3.) How do the different audio formats rank in order of bandwidth requirements?

Uncompressed HD needs roughly 20Mb/sec (bits, not bytes). DVD takes about a quarter of that. You can't separate format from the discussion, however, as DivX is far less bandwidth-hungry than an uncompressed stream.

I wouldn't worry about audio, its bandwidth requirements are small and can easily fit within wireless. HD video, however, barely squeaks in there and only if the G connection is ideal, which it never is.

Regarding specific formats, file sizes are proportional to bandwidth requirements, since bandwidth requirements just equals filesize over time. i.e. a 4GB file that last two hours (such as a DVD) = 4GB/7200sec = ~550KB/sec = ~4Mb/sec.

Just remember that stated bandwidth needs to be dropped by roughly a third to get to effective bandwidth as all transmission protocols have overhead. Wireless is even worse since max-bandwidth isn't the issue, but min. If you count on max bandwidth for wireless, you will be rudely greeted by stuttering in those times that maximum doesn't happen.


Bill

Bill, thanks for your response. This is the "basic requirements" kind of info I was interested in. I especially like this statement...

Regarding specific formats, file sizes are proportional to bandwidth requirements, since bandwidth requirements just equals filesize over time. i.e. a 4GB file that last two hours (such as a DVD) = 4GB/7200sec = ~550KB/sec = ~4Mb/sec.
it is very straight forward and makes perfect sense.



Just remember that stated bandwidth needs to be dropped by roughly a third to get to effective bandwidth as all transmission protocols have overhead. Wireless is even worse since max-bandwidth isn't the issue, but min. If you count on max bandwidth for wireless, you will be rudely greeted by stuttering in those times that maximum doesn't happen.

I pretty much knew about these theoritcal bandwidth standards/claims and how far off they are from usable reality. I guess you really need to use a good bench marking tool to see what you're really getting.

While the 802.11 wireless numbers are typically far off from reality, the numbers for the powerline products seem to be even more ridiculous. Most of the newer ones are rated at 200Mbps, but I just got the new Linksys Powerline A/V (PLK200) which are only rated at 100Mbps. I'm anxious to see if they are trying to have more realistic speed claims, or are they really half the speed of the others.

I have never been able to get a powerline product, including the newer 200mbps units from netgear and panasonic, to go beyond 18mbps steadily between the far ends of my home. I actually get better throughput by using a draft n wireless router as an ethernet bridge. The draft n gets me a steady 30mbps from the far ends of my home. That is enough for HDTV over the air, HD Camcorders and current blu-ray movies. It might wind up being too slow for the highest bitrate blu-ray.

Uncompressed HD needs roughly 20Mb/sec (bits, not bytes). DVD takes about a quarter of that. You can't separate format from the discussion, however, as DivX is far less bandwidth-hungry than an uncompressed stream.

I think I know what you were trying to say, but uncompressed high def is 1.5Gbits/sec, or 75x faster than what you are calling uncompressed. That's how fast HD-SDI runs with 4:2:2 sampling.

By "uncompressed" you mean not compressed any further than the compressed stream that was originally captured OTA or off cable or satellite.

I think I know what you were trying to say, but uncompressed high def is 1.5Gbits/sec, or 75x faster than what you are calling uncompressed. That's how fast HD-SDI runs with 4:2:2 sampling.

By "uncompressed" you mean not compressed any further than the compressed stream that was originally captured OTA or off cable or satellite.

You are correct. I caught that after I posted it but never got around to correcting myself. Yes, not compressed further as with DIVX or similar.


Bill

I have never been able to get a powerline product, including the newer 200mbps units from netgear and panasonic, to go beyond 18mbps steadily between the far ends of my home. I actually get better throughput by using a draft n wireless router as an ethernet bridge. The draft n gets me a steady 30mbps from the far ends of my home. That is enough for HDTV over the air, HD Camcorders and current blu-ray movies. It might wind up being too slow for the highest bitrate blu-ray.

Well, I finally got time to try two network solutions to use with my new TViX 4000... the LinkSys wireless bridge (WGA54G) and the LinkSys PowerLine AV (PLK200/PLE200).

I know the WGA54G is called a "Game Adapter", but thought it was a general ethernet-wireless bridge. I hooked my laptop up to it and tried ftping a 1GB file to do some testing. Every transfer attempt locked up after just 20Kb - 100Kb. So, not sure what is special about it, but after hours of frustration, flashing, and several failed file transfers, I boxed it up for return.

Then I tried the powerline adapters, and I'm very happy to say --- nice and great! First of all, it was really nice that they just plug in and work. Then, the through-put test results were great! I tested by ftping a 1GB file:
5740.48 KB/sec x 8 = 45,923.84 Kb/sec
45,923.84 Kb/sec / 1024 = 44.85 Mbps

I was pleasantly shocked to see those numbers compared to my laptop (802.11g) test which was only 13.16 Mbps.

Something I thought was very intriguing was that the specs on the box of the new LinkSys PowerLine AV adapters only claim 100 Mbps compared to most of the other vendors are claiming 200 Mbps. From what I've read about the previous powerline products over the past year, the real throughput numbers have been quite short of the theoretical claims. So, is this product really half the through-put of the competitors, or would LinkSys really try to be more responsible with their claims? To make it even more intriguing, their .pdf data sheet and user guide do state up to 200 Mbps. Something tells me there's some legal action - or fear of - involved:)

As for real vs theoretical numbers, remember that my 44.85 Mbps number is of "user data". Whereas, their theoretical claims are all bits that are transmitted. The difference is that there is a large overhead of bits transmitted for the protocol (TCPIP) overhead. I've seen something saying that overhead can easily be 30%.

Bottom line for me, I've seen claims of 20 Mbps to 40 Mbps required for HD streaming. So, 44.85 Mbps should work fine for me:)

Do the powerline adapters create their own network LAN or they expand on existing LAN setup (via lets say a LinkSys Wireless Router)?

Do the powerline adapters create their own network LAN or they expand on existing LAN setup (via lets say a LinkSys Wireless Router)?

I'd think they're seperate networks, but I'll bump this too & see if somebody will answer.

also, I have a question about the powerline adapters (I'm soon to have 3 Linksys PLE200s). can I effectively put 2 different adapters on the same electrical extension cord to be connected to 2 different devices? all the same electrical/data circuit, or is each electrical outlet in the house some sort of separate powerline hub?

I don't want to have to buy a switch if I have adapters to spare. & I'd rather not use a different electrical outlet to avoid ground loop problems.

Hi,

(unrelated to digital media servers)

FYI - I use two XTERASYS PLE0085 powerline adapters (NewEgg had a good deal on them a few months back) and they extend the current network. (I wanted to move has much HW as I could to the basement). Here is my current setup (all in the 192.168.1.* subnet):

1st Floor:
-----------
AT&T DSL modem (with 4 port router + wireless-g - all in one unit)
2 PCs + Netgear 4 port Switch + 1 Powerline connected to above AT&T unit.
VOIP Gateway connected to Netgear switch.


Basement:
-------------
(electrically noisy due to washer/dryer/furnace/dehumidifier)
Powerline adapter connected to wall outlet
16 port Netgear switch connected to powerline adapter
1 Win 2000 machine connected to Netgear switch (24/7, running server software, Skype, Skype2VOIP gateway, PABX, iTunes etc).
2 cheap NAS (SimpleTech 160GB) drives also connected to Netgear.

Mp3, video, digital photos etc. are stored in the NAS. Only use MP3 (via iTunes sharing) and photos (by pointing Picassa to the NAS mapped drive. Never tried streaming video. Though eventually I might give a try since I am thinking of getting a TVix 4000 (and Roku or Sqeezbox3).


The XTERASYS has a utility software (called PowerPacket) that shows the speed. I get about 58Mbps (to the basement). (Was much higher on the same 1st floor/room). Btw, my place was built in 1980 - so, not really sure about the quality of the electrical wiring.

Hope this info helps.

Well, given how Powerline AV has been hit or miss in recent memory, I too was completely stunned (just today in fact) when I finally got around to getting rid of my Tivo unit and building an HTPC.

I have a pretty stable 1GB network and live in a fairly new house (built in '98). So the electrical wiring is top notch.

I use my laptop across 802.11g to connect to a D-Link router. My wife has a back room office and she connects via a draft-N adapter (usb). Every now and then, I'd get yelled at to go 'fix the network'. Of course, there's nothing wrong with it, but usually her connection would drop or she would get slow connections etc.

So, back when I was buying parts to build my HTPC, on a hunch, I decided to pick up the Linksys PLK200 (its just a pair of PLE200s in a box) in order to try it out. And if that didn't work, I would return it and stick with draft-N and an antenna booster or something.

So I built the HTPC, but since I was in my office and within range of the router, it was hardwired directly to the router. No wireless.

Once everything was done, I decided to try out PowerLine AV before going back to my draft-N fallback (this HTPC is destined for the living room AV unit).

It was painless.

I connected one PLE200 into my switch (to which my router is plugged of course) and plugging it [directly] into a wall outlet. This allowed me to bridge the powerline network directly into my existing LAN.

Installed the Linksys CD-ROM into the HTPC and ran setup.

When prompted, I connected the PLE200 to the HTPC network port and then into a wall socket.

Since I use Network Magic, it immediately informed me that I was connected. I ran some tests. Yep, I was connected at 100mbps.

I was ecstatic to say the least. So, I unplugged the PLE200 from the HTPC and ran clean, clear across the house (about 2,000 ft away) to wifey's (its 90 deg here in sunny FLA and she and the little one were outside at the pool with no idea that her computer was about to become a guinea pig) back office.

I unplugged her USB adapter and rebooted.

Then again followed the previous steps to install the PLE200. It worked like a charm.

I ran outside and called her in, not saying a thing about what I'd just done. I asked her to check out her 'tweaked' connection. Needless to say, she was excited to say the least. Especially after I ran some bandwidth tests right there and then.

Before I could finish explaining what I'd done, I found myself facing a fight that started off with "....you knew about this powerline thingie all these months and didn't fix my computer??!" I muttered something about the alignment of the stars, the man on the moon and that bees were disappearing globally and made a beeline for the garage.

I arrived at CompUSA fifteen mins later and left with a pair of PLK units. Yes, thats four PLE200s.

As soon as I got home, I removed every single wireless connection in the house: living room (laptop), bedroom (MediaMVP), living room (Mvix MX-760HD), game room (XB360) and gave them all a powerline AV connection.

I am now sailing, wireless free and running pure AV throughout a 7,000 sq ft house with NO problems. I did leave the USB connection on the laptop alone, this way we could still move around (e.g. poolside) with it.

Of course, when I came to AVS today, it wasn't to post about this, it was to give myself a good reason to put my MX-7600HD on eBay and spring for a Tvix M-4100SH. I am sick and tired of the problems and shortcomings of that unit and since everyone seems to be raving (as they were prior to the Mvix unit coming out) about the Tvix unit, I figured I'd come here to find a good reason. Thus far, I can't; say I have - but I'm going to order the darn thing anyway. So, I just keep browsing the forums and came across this thread.

So, PMFJI

I'd think they're seperate networks, but I'll bump this too & see if somebody will answer.

also, I have a question about the powerline adapters (I'm soon to have 3 Linksys PLE200s). can I effectively put 2 different adapters on the same electrical extension cord to be connected to 2 different devices? all the same electrical/data circuit, or is each electrical outlet in the house some sort of separate powerline hub?

I don't want to have to buy a switch if I have adapters to spare. & I'd rather not use a different electrical outlet to avoid ground loop problems.

Yes. A PLE200 just becomes a bridge when plugged into an existing network.

SO, if you want to connect two machines to an existing network, you need three PLE200 units (1xPLK200 + 1xPLE200). One goes into the router and one each into the PCs.

indie,

I have the XTERASYS, rated at 85mbs, but get only about 55mbs-58mbs. On the Tvix 4000, I can play video, MP3 etc. but SD DVD iso and WMP HD plays with bit of stutter (even when using NFS).

I think with the speeds you are getting (100mps), you should have no problem using the Tvix (unless its a firmware issue on the 4100).

I currently use a direct cat5 cable since the powerline speeds in my system is not suitable for DVD iso or HD playback with Tvix. (Network playback using WMP on a laptop PCworks OK though).

I spent the majority of a weekend a few weeks ago trying to figure out my best option for networking 2 PC and a DLink media player in different rooms with the purpose of streaming HD media. I tried both the NetgearHD and LinksysPLE200 Powerline adapters and ultimately found the Linksys to be better perfoming. I can transfer or stream files at ~25mbs which sufficient to playback everything on the PC away from the TV. I found that the powerline adapter performance is definitly affected by other appliances and found using an inexpensiver powerline noise filter with a couple of appliances really made a big difference. I'm guessing things like the dishwasher, fridge, washer/dryer, etc significantly affect performance.

I also tried using wireless N and even after an hour with tech support we could never get sustained transfer speeds over 15mbs.

I did go ahead a try 2 PLE200 off one electric plug & extension cord & it worked fine. one PLE going to the PS3 & the other going to an EVA8000 media streamer.

according to the Linksys utility software, each PLE is 50-70 mbps. though the EVA streamer shows only about 12-14 mbps, so the network is more than adequate for the device capability, apparently.

using an inexpensiver powerline noise filter with a couple of appliances really made a big difference.

What brand/type of powerline noise filter did you get? Though I don't think I need it, its always good to know what to get when you do need it.

indie,

I have the XTERASYS, rated at 85mbs, but get only about 55mbs-58mbs. On the Tvix 4000, I can play video, MP3 etc. but SD DVD iso and WMP HD plays with bit of stutter (even when using NFS).

I think with the speeds you are getting (100mps), you should have no problem using the Tvix (unless its a firmware issue on the 4100).

I currently use a direct cat5 cable since the powerline speeds in my system is not suitable for DVD iso or HD playback with Tvix. (Network playback using WMP on a laptop PCworks OK though).
Sandun, i'm no guru on streaming requirements, but from what I've read your 55Mbps is more than ample for HD streaming and definitely for SD.

What are you using that gives you the 55Mbps - 58Mbps numbers?

Calvin, sorry for the no reponse. I dropped off of the forums for a little while. I'm just getting back to ripping all of my music and DVD's and was checking on the latest TViX firmware and products. As someone answered, it is just an extension (bridge) to your existing LAN.

Boa12, that's quite an expensive solution to get two network connections at one location. There are plenty of small switches much cheaper than adding the second PLE200. But, I don't guess they interfere with each other and if you already have them, then I guess it's a good solution.

If anybody has any more questions and I don't reply, feel free to PM me so I'll get an email notification.

Chad R.

There are plenty of small switches much cheaper than adding the second PLE200.
Chad R.

If he needs two units to connect to a network, I don't see how a switch (at that location) would help any. Unless I'm missing something. Besides, what switch were you thinking of that would be cheaper than a PLE200 (MSRP $89 online)?

I have a similar situation, but in my case, I have my Tvix 4100SH and my HTPC, both using a PLE200 each, even though both the Tvix and HTPC are right next to each other.

Sandun, i'm no guru on streaming requirements, but from what I've read your 55Mbps is more than ample for HD streaming and definitely for SD.

What are you using that gives you the 55Mbps - 58Mbps numbers?

Chad R.

The rates were based on the PowerPacket utility (monitoring software). 50-55Mbps (equ to a wireless G), the SD contents plays well, but it is the ISO SD DVDs that showed stutter. WMD HD streams also showed some stutter .

I just got another PLE0085 and set it up (just for testing) in the garage (detached, 50ft away) along with the SimpleTech NAS (NFS media store). This connection (garage -> basement via powerline, basement to twix via cat5) showed about 70Mbps. The Tvix plays ISO SD dvds, WMD-HDs without any problems.

The first case (where I got 50-50Mbps), the connection is from the 1st floor to the the room below (basement). I also noticed I can get about 60Mbps, if I plugged the PLE0085 to a different outlet in the room. (Current power double gang outlet powers my desktop, 2 LCD mons, 1gigabit switch, dsl modem w/wireless g, pc speakers along with PLE0085 powerline adapter). So, definetely there is a lot of noise. Might try using a powerline conditioner or a UPS with one to, to hook up the desktop PCs etc. except for the powerline adapter.

Do you have a download link for the program you are using to measure your bandwidth speed over powerline?

Sandun, i'm no guru on streaming requirements, but from what I've read your 55Mbps is more than ample for HD streaming and definitely for SD.

What are you using that gives you the 55Mbps - 58Mbps numbers?

Calvin, sorry for the no reponse. I dropped off of the forums for a little while. I'm just getting back to ripping all of my music and DVD's and was checking on the latest TViX firmware and products. As someone answered, it is just an extension (bridge) to your existing LAN.

Boa12, that's quite an expensive solution to get two network connections at one location. There are plenty of small switches much cheaper than adding the second PLE200. But, I don't guess they interfere with each other and if you already have them, then I guess it's a good solution.

If anybody has any more questions and I don't reply, feel free to PM me so I'll get an email notification.

Chad R.

thanks chad. they're workin' fine together. since I had a little problem w/ a dead one, I ended up getting 5 for the price of 2 - so now I even have an extra. ;)

Do you have a download link for the program you are using to measure your bandwidth speed over powerline?

The "HomePlug Power Packet" software came with the adapter. The adapter I am using is Xterasys PLE0085 :

http://www.xterasys.com/ple0085.htm

The "PowerPacket" software also be downloaded from xterasys:
http://www.xterasys.com/drivers.htm

(search for the PLE0085 product software download).

Not really sure how accurate the sofware is. At some point, I may test "end user" speed (incl. procotol overhead) by simply calculating the time to xfer a large file.