Just musing out loud here. Some talking points as it were...any comments welcome.

Yesterday I watched some more DVDs on the Sony Pearl. It certainly wasn't the ideal demo but I have seen the Pearl many times now, on many screens in different rooms (including a bat cave).

I'm still generally enamored by the front projection experience. Even throwing on an oldie like Star Trek the (original) Motion Picture is a blast. Seeing those space scenes BIG like they were meant to be seen is satisfying.

But as I'm now seriously aiming for front projection some issues are starting to arise. First...man does this front projection stuff require a commitment, if you really want to get high performance (e.g. room decor, screen choice, projector choice, not to mention the additional horrors associated with the urge for a CIH set up).

Plasma was so damned easy compared to this! And in fact this very fact hit me in the face again last night after viewing the Pearl. As much as I admire the Pearl some minor gripes are creeping in, and they are starting to guide me as to what I'd like.

1. Image brightness. So far in just about every Pearl set up I've seen, by the end of the session I've been feeling like I've wanted some more brightness and punch to the image. Yesterday's image was the Pearl at 14 ft from an 80" screen. Unfortunately I couldn't play with the settings. Perhaps it's that I'm coming from viewing a plasma in front projection-like settings (I have black backdrop, lights out, for my plasma), and it's not that I'm expecting or even asking the front projected image to look just like a plasma (I want it film-like, in general). But I do feel like the Pearl images are a tad dulled, in terms of dynamics.


2. In this particular environment the walls were medium-light gray, same with floor, light ceiling. The screen gain was neutral white. Despite being able to close off all light to the room, I could really see the effect of the light reflected off the rest of the room, on the projected image. Black levels would rise with any bright objects on the screen. (And I have to admit I kept seeing what appeared to be the white crush of the DI, which bothered me a lot).

3. General DVD quality. In the past I've looked at projectors and, while admiring many things about the image, seeing a selection of DVD images made me feel it wasn't quite ready for prime time. Not due to the projectors, but to the limitations of DVD resolution itself. Close shots look great, but as the shots pull out the lack of resolution and the digital nature of the image start to intrude more. Of course, on my 42" ED plasma such problems are minimized almost to non-existence. With a decent DVD transfer the picture is smooth and sharp almost all the way through.
I have been willing to trade size for sheer image brilliance and lack of artifacts.
One of the things that is pulling me to front projection is the arrival of the HD movie formats. I figure by the time I'm ready to buy a projector (within next year) there will be a decent catalogue of HD-DVD an Blu Ray titles to start me off. Although, I do still want to enjoy standard DVD as well being a movie-lover.

But back to the Pearl experience. While the size of the image for STTMP (Star Trek..) was wonderful (even at 80"), some of the shots of the Enterprise traveling through the giant "Vyger" clouds looked, well...pretty crappy. Sometimes more like 8mm film vs dvd or film, in terms of a grainy, dull, lifeless image. Putting on that same DVD at home on the plasma is just a whole different experience in terms of image dynamics. The Vyger cloud ignites with some dazzling energy out of the darkness. Color is lush, sparkling, dynamic, jewel-like. The contrast looks amazing. Must be that whole ANSI thing.

So, while I'm not looking for the projected image to look like plasma exactly, I am finding that, like many, I'm wanting as much dynamics as I can get. And more color impact. Aside from pure image size, I've seen very, very few front projected images that blew me away.

One that DID blow me away is haunting me still: The new Sharp Z2000 1080p projector. I'd gone to see the Pearl in a local shop but they had the Sharp up instead, at about 14ft throw distance projecting on to a Stewart Firehawk screen.
The image just knocked me out. With DVDs like Blade Runner and Attack Of The Clones I've never seen a projected image that looked so dynamic in terms of the black levels and the contrast of bright and dark, allied to amazing color saturation. Black looked super deep, dark images looked solid, lights blazed through the night sky, it was very sharp...just killer!

But...I'm rainbow-allergic, unfortunately. Sigh. I can still see 'em all over the Sharp.

So the new JVC HD/RS-1 is in my cross hairs (probably next year's model, actually, in terms of time-table). It should provide some better dynamics than the Pearl, along with a sharper image. (I do notice the softness in the Pearl image as well).

I seem to see some preliminary impressions that the JVC competes favorably with the Sharp, but as it seems in some ways the Sharp being my standard goal, I'll be very intrigued at any comparisons.

But, wow, figuring out which way to go with screens is brutal! I find myself most intrigued by two screens for the JVC: The Carada Brilliant White (slight gain) and the Stewart Firehawk. The Brilliant white because supposedly it adds some nice "pop" while having a very smooth texture (I can't stand seeing screen surface - HATE the "silk screen effect" on RPTVS), great uniformity and viewing angles (a bonus as I'm very sensitive to that aspect - one of the things I love about my plasma over RPTVs is the way the image remains constant as I move around). And then the price would be nice, saving me some to put toward an anamorphic lens or whatever.

But since I LOVE deep black levels and nice ANSI contrast, the Stewart Firehawk is the other screen of interest (for reasons most understand). I can hopefully have a perfectly light controlled room, and (if wife agrees) fairly dark (not black) walls etc. But since it's not going to be a bat cave maybe the Firehawk will be necessary. Dunno.

Front projection: lovin' it and hatin' it. :)

After complaining about a dull dim image i'm shocked that your solution is to go with a dim screen. FORGET the firehawk or carada. Start thinking 2.0 gain or better.

I can promise you a Silverstar will blow you away.

No dont start in about black level. Perceived contrast goes up with higher gain screens.

Things that are key to making FP work:
1) Get the right screen for your space and tastest. If you really like a plasma, then a Silverstar or High Power are more likely what you want.

2) Video processing is a MUST. Compression artifacts and processing weaknesses show up a lot more prominently when you have 3x - 4x+ more screen real estate you are watching. As you do demos, pay attention to who has what VP (or is using the included processing in the projector). The RS1, with a Gennum solution, should be near the top for onboard video processing (similar to what Marantz has included in its latest products).

3) Don't get overly focused on what you need to change about your environment. Yes, a dedicated bat cave helps a lot to maximize what you have, but little tweaks can go a long way (moving glass picture frames out of the major reflection paths, window treatments, etc.). A high gain screen also helps.

Most of all, focus on FP into your environment so that your spouse/SO does not look at $20k in hardware that also requires $100k in remodeling costs. Changing your environment to fit FP can be phase 2, after you are hooked!

Bill

Tryg...who woulda guessed you'd recommend a high-power screen? :) ;)

I want to say that I really appreciate all the work and info you've provided on these forums. For someone like me diving into all this stuff it's been a great help.

After complaining about a dull dim image i'm shocked that your solution is to go with a dim screen.

Well I guess that Sharp demo (on the Firehawk screen) is still stuck in my head. It was a fabulous, dynamic image and didn't look dim at all to me. Although the Pearl on the same screen did seem a bit dim over-all.

FORGET the firehawk or carada. Start thinking 2.0 gain or better.

I can promise you a Silverstar will blow you away.

Thanks. I AM likely limited to a ceiling-mount for the projector (making the HP screen out). But I'm also pretty allergic to screen structure. Enough people have mentioned it in regards to the Silverstar to make me think it'll bug me too. (Hence the Carada - less gain, but still some pop and "invisible" screen structure, apparently).

No dont start in about black level. Perceived contrast goes up with higher gain screens.

I understand the phenomenon. What I'm worried about (being a black level fiend) is whether we are talking something like the LCD-effect. That is, LCD flat panels can also give excellent apparent black levels, so far as there is something somewhat bright on the screen. They can pump out SO MUCH LIGHT that the effect is, as you understand, to make adjacent dark objects or areas look much more dark. But view the LCDs in a darker environment and the sheer brightness becomes an eye-straining liability. You gotta turn 'em down. Then you loose some of that contrast, and then, in the dark, especially with darker images overall, the image starts to look disappointingly flatter and washed out.

Over on the flat panel forum we have tons of people saying "What are you talkin' bout? LCD black levels look GREAT!" But that's coming from people who are so happy with the image brightness and who are watching in environments, or watching source content, that may not make black levels that much of a problem. Whereas others, like myself, prefer plasmas which aren't as bright but which, under the conditions I watch, look richer and more convincing over-all.

I'm somewhat afraid the super high gain screens might be a similar case of this.

I haven't played around with screens yet, but I'm getting the sense it's fairly similar. However, I definitely don't want a dim, lifeless image and so may be willing to live with slightly higher black levels (so long as they are satisfying enough. I also don't care for black levels that rise a lot as more bright objects occur in the shot).

Rich, you're certainly doing your homework! My very humble unprofessional advice is

1) the RS1 should, based on early reports, be the step up you are looking for in a projector, comparing favorably to the Sharp. Of course, once it is widely released, this can be confirmed.

2) The Toshiba HD-DVD players are a real step up not just in terms of HD but in upconverting SD DVDs. Especially their top-end model. Hopefully this can at least partly solve your DVD frustrations (which I share).

3) Given your plasma background and comments above, it would seem that a Silverstar or Dalite High Power screen should be at the top of your list.

I must admit that the above are the three moves I am contemplating myself as an upgrade from my 720p Panasonic projector, Panasonic S97 DVD player, and graywolf 106" screen. If I were going with a much smaller screen for a project setup--say around 80"--I would be tempted to stick with the simplicity of a 65" plasma (though the bulk and price would make me wary).

Keep us posted on your journey! Always interesting...

Plasma is great for display in banks, airports, conference, news, etc, but if you want a true home cinema experience, there is no other choice but projection. It sounds like you are incapable of making the leap----Either crap or get off the pot!, and quit sounding like an old woman at Wal-mart trying to decide between 2 pot holders----- :rolleyes:

And, a wonderful evening to you too, HiCaffJeff ;) . I surely appreciate the thoughtful analysis and advice :)

(Activates "ignore" list).

You're quite welcome----(now get out there and buy the damn projector and screen)---- :D

I'm still generally enamored by the front projection experience. Even throwing on an oldie like Star Trek the (original) Motion Picture is a blast. Seeing those space scenes BIG like they were meant to be seen is satisfying.

I totally agree. A real theater experience requires a big screen, a dark room, and a wide horizontal viewing angle.




But as I'm now seriously aiming for front projection some issues are starting to arise. First...man does this front projection stuff require a commitment, if you really want to get high performance (e.g. room decor, screen choice, projector choice, not to mention the additional horrors associated with the urge for a CIH set up).

Yes, it certainly does require a commitment to build a dedicated home theater. You need the square footage, the build cost, the gear, the acoustic treatments, etc. In fact, there is virtually no end to the amount of money you can spend.

But you can also do it on a budget. In my humble opinion, there is no substitute for a dedicated theater environment.


1. Image brightness. So far in just about every Pearl set up I've seen, by the end of the session I've been feeling like I've wanted some more brightness and punch to the image. Yesterday's image was the Pearl at 14 ft from an 80" screen. Unfortunately I couldn't play with the settings. Perhaps it's that I'm coming from viewing a plasma in front projection-like settings (I have black backdrop, lights out, for my plasma), and it's not that I'm expecting or even asking the front projected image to look just like a plasma (I want it film-like, in general). But I do feel like the Pearl images are a tad dulled, in terms of dynamics.

My Pearl is certainly not as bright as a plasma, but it is bright enough to be engaging and involving in my bat cave.


2. In this particular environment the walls were medium-light gray, same with floor, light ceiling. The screen gain was neutral white. Despite being able to close off all light to the room, I could really see the effect of the light reflected off the rest of the room, on the projected image.

I have black carpet, black ceiling, and dark gray walls, with no ambient light. The room is very dark. I have a Carada BW screen, which has an advertised gain of 1.4 but is probably closer to 1.1 or 1.2 gain. I've got like 600 hours on the bulb now, and it's still bright enough. I just watched Word Trade Center, which has lots of very low APL scenes with Nick Cage trapped in the rubble -- detail was very good in these scenes.


Black levels would rise with any bright objects on the screen. (And I have to admit I kept seeing what appeared to be the white crush of the DI, which bothered me a lot).

You could always try AutoIris2, which is less aggressive than Auto1. I personally prefer it because there is less brightness compression and the high APL scenes have more pop.


3. General DVD quality.

I'm on record as saying that to me, personally, DVDs are nearly unwatchable on a big screen. Lots of people seem to think I'm crazy for thinking this. But the edge enhancement and macroblocking are just hard to look at. However, I have found that having two rows in your theater (one at 40+ horizontal viewing angle for HD movies, and one closer to 26 degrees for DVD) allows you to sit further away from standard definition content so it's more pallatable.

Having said this, I do not watch standard definition content on my projector unless I have no other option. I've had my projector for 6 months now, and I've only watched 2 or 3 standard definition movies on it.

The good news is that I have DishNet's HD DVR, so I have an endless backlog of HD movies to watch. Plus, I have HD DVD. Right at this very moment, I have 10 HD movies at my disposal which I have not yet viewed.


I figure by the time I'm ready to buy a projector (within next year) there will be a decent catalogue of HD-DVD an Blu Ray titles to start me off.

HD content is really the key to maximizing that big screen. At the screen sizes we're using, 1080i/p content on a 1080p projector is so very close to 35mm film. The picture is better than the commercial theater. It's so much more immersive too, since there's no talking fool sitting behind you, and no grainy out of focus print on the screen.



Front projection: lovin' it and hatin' it. :)

Me personally? I'm just lovin' it. I just stay away from content that would make me hate it, since there's so much great stuff out there.

Once you go FRONT you never go BACK- again... :)

"I AM likely limited to a ceiling-mount for the projector (making the HP screen out). "

Depends; I have my pj at 7' at 23' back, and sitting at 13' I estimate I'm getting about 1.8 gain, along with all the other HP benefits.

Noah,

How high up off the ground is the top of your screen? With the PJ at 7' is the top of your screen above that, or below that, to get a 1.8 gain still?

Also, does the HP leave you with a very bright rear wall? Would it be at the level of the projector? Im wondering what that effect is with retroreflective very thin angle screens?

Im thinking about high power or silverstar as possibilities aside from the Carada BW, which is still at the top of my list currently.

Harkness:

Try to acomodate a 'bright' projector with a screen gain of no more than 1.0 to 1.5 to get the best compromise. Super high gain screens also have as many 'negatives' as 'positives' to the overall picture quality.

My home theater setup is comprised mainley of SD dvd's and with the right equipment can satisfy the most critical of videophiles. HD dvd's will always look 'better' but by how much to make it worth the investment right now?

I have seen many reference quality SD discs and a bunch of lousy HD transfers so it is 'not' just the resolution which makes the difference.

Who ever claims that HD discs have no macroblocking or edge enhancement is not giving accurate information.

One that DID blow me away is haunting me still: The new Sharp Z2000 1080p projector.

So the new JVC HD/RS-1 is in my cross hairs (probably next year's model, actually, in terms of time-table).

But, wow, figuring out which way to go with screens is brutal!

Front projection: lovin' it and hatin' it. :)

Some thoughts:

1. The Sharp Z2000 has a retail price of $12K. If your time-table really is next year - you will most certainly see significant price drops and/or improvements in front projection. 12 months ago not many folks would have dreamed of RS-1 specs at $5K.

2. Figuring out which way to go with screens in indeed brutal. The only real way to decide is to see the screen with your projector in your room. Someone has to figure out a cost effective way to let people demo screens in their theaters before purchase.

3. Front projection can be difficult, however, it is a fun journey. Thinking about designing the room, wiring, equipment, screen, sources, lighting, seating, etc., etc. The best way seems to jump in with a projector that is reasonably affordable and upgrade over time. (See point #1 above.) I put most of my initial money in nice leather theater seats and room design because these investments will last several generations of projectors.

3. Front projection can be difficult, however, it is a fun journey. Thinking about designing the room, wiring, equipment, screen, sources, lighting, seating, etc., etc. The best way seems to jump in with a projector that is reasonably affordable and upgrade over time. (See point #1 above.) I put most of my initial money in nice leather theater seats and room design because these investments will last several generations of projectors.


Mit07 is right on the ball. ;)

Great comments and advice guys. Thanks.

As to just "jumping in" there are still domestic negotiations (and finances) to work out. Allow me to muse about selling this HT projector stuff to my wife (because she had been expecting a bigger plasma if anything, and minimal intrusion into our decor).

I am asking a fair amount of my wife, in that I wish to take over our front living room for this venture. We don't really spend much time in there at the moment (almost all family activity takes place in the back family room), but it IS the room we probably put the most decor $ into years ago and it IS the front room of the house. (Hell, I'd still be happy to paint it very dark colors). So as far as the negotiations for decor/projector, I can see one rational for buying the projector more quickly with our existing (very sub-optimal) decor. It's a minimal intrusion to get the ball rolling.

But then there's also the psychological/negotiation element. We get the projector, it looks great THEN I try and break out the "honey, we need to paint the walls dark..." business. Could be an even harder sell because it is likely to be met with the spine-chillingly popular "Why? It looks fine as it is. Forget it, no ugly dark walls!"

At least I can perhaps include the darker decor in the negotiations. "Honey...for a projector to look fantastic it really helps when the walls aren't really light colored...we'll make the place a darker, richer decor...it'll look great...etc..."

I'm always curious how this stuff has been dealt with by other hubbies.

Great comments and advice guys. Thanks.

As to just "jumping in" there are still domestic negotiations (and finances) to work out. Allow me to muse about selling this HT projector stuff to my wife (because she had been expecting a bigger plasma if anything, and minimal intrusion into our decor).

I am asking a fair amount of my wife, in that I wish to take over our front living room for this venture. We don't really spend much time in there at the moment (almost all family activity takes place in the back family room), but it IS the room we probably put the most decor $ into years ago and it IS the front room of the house. (Hell, I'd still be happy to paint it very dark colors). So as far as the negotiations for decor/projector, I can see one rational for buying the projector more quickly with our existing (very sub-optimal) decor. It's a minimal intrusion to get the ball rolling.

But then there's also the psychological/negotiation element. We get the projector, it looks great THEN I try and break out the "honey, we need to paint the walls dark..." business. Could be an even harder sell because it is likely to be met with the spine-chillingly popular "Why? It looks fine as it is. Forget it, no ugly dark walls!"

At least I can perhaps include the darker decor in the negotiations. "Honey...for a projector to look fantastic it really helps when the walls aren't really light colored...we'll make the place a darker, richer decor...it'll look great...etc..."

I'm always curious how this stuff has been dealt with by other hubbies.

I just basically do what I want when it comes to home theater...as I said before, we let our wives do all kinds of nutty stuff that we aren't wild about...They need to give in 50% (or more)... :D ...My wife fought me as I've said, but now she absolutely "loves" our humble little theater...I didn't even want to paint the walls...Projector looks great as is...I would start with something that looks like a giant plasma and then slowly move on from there if you must... :) If she whines about speakers just do in-wall... :)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a189/chuckken/Picture071.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a189/chuckken/Picture073.jpg

We are in the middle of redoing our family room, and I am waiting on the RS1. Dark colors are in, according to my wife, so I had no problem there. I had no idea. I have been shooting her down on darker colors for our other rooms for quite a while.
She's not going for the dark ceiling though. :eek:

chuckken: Very attractive room. Can you tell me what size and kind of screen you have?
Tx, Bill

It's the Elite "Easy Frame" 120" got it over here...Has a beautiful 3" black velvet border...It is all aluminum and fits togther very easily... :)

http://www.htmarket.com/ezsefischd16.html

"How high up off the ground is the top of your screen? With the PJ at 7' is the top of your screen above that, or below that, to get a 1.8 gain still?"

The top of the screen is about 8" above the lens.

"Also, does the HP leave you with a very bright rear wall?"

Can't say I've ever turned around to look, but I don't think so.

Attached are pics of the front (setup is in transition between RP and FP) and back walls.

OK, just the back wall; how do people attach more than one pic?

"Super high gain screens also have as many 'negatives' as 'positives' to the overall picture quality."

I can think of only one for the HP.

Nice looking room. How far back is your couch from the screen?

Nice looking room. How far back is your couch from the screen?

I'm not sure if you were asking me or Noah...?

Mine is 14 ft from couch to screen and 18 ft from projector to screen.

Thanks Ckuckken.

My wife and I are in process of building a home in which we will have a home theater incorporated into our basement family room.

The arrangement my wife prefers would put the couch against a back wall exactly 14 ft from the screen (approx. 10ft diag.). I was wondering if 14 ft is a good distance or if it is too close.

Do you feel you are far enough back from your screen?

Great comments and advice guys. Thanks.

As to just "jumping in" there are still domestic negotiations (and finances) to work out. Allow me to muse about selling this HT projector stuff to my wife (because she had been expecting a bigger plasma if anything, and minimal intrusion into our decor).

I am asking a fair amount of my wife, in that I wish to take over our front living room for this venture. We don't really spend much time in there at the moment (almost all family activity takes place in the back family room), but it IS the room we probably put the most decor $ into years ago and it IS the front room of the house. (Hell, I'd still be happy to paint it very dark colors). So as far as the negotiations for decor/projector, I can see one rational for buying the projector more quickly with our existing (very sub-optimal) decor. It's a minimal intrusion to get the ball rolling.

But then there's also the psychological/negotiation element. We get the projector, it looks great THEN I try and break out the "honey, we need to paint the walls dark..." business. Could be an even harder sell because it is likely to be met with the spine-chillingly popular "Why? It looks fine as it is. Forget it, no ugly dark walls!"

At least I can perhaps include the darker decor in the negotiations. "Honey...for a projector to look fantastic it really helps when the walls aren't really light colored...we'll make the place a darker, richer decor...it'll look great...etc..."

I'm always curious how this stuff has been dealt with by other hubbies.


Rich, you have my deepest sympathies! My suggestion would be to simply start with the projector and screen, and then at a later stage push on darkening the walls...I suspect she'll be really impressed how discrete the whole thing is (assuming the screen is not fixed but motorized or manual pull down). Much less prominent in the living room than a 65" plasma, since it rolls up and is out of the way during the day. And on painting the walls, perhaps there are some compromise colors that are better than white/beige but not a bat cave...the real hurdle is painting the ceiling!

Thanks Ckuckken.

My wife and I are in process of building a home in which we will have a home theater incorporated into our basement family room.

The arrangement my wife prefers would put the couch against a back wall exactly 14 ft from the screen (approx. 10ft diag.). I was wondering if 14 ft is a good distance or if it is too close.

Do you feel you are far enough back from your screen?

Yes, for my wife and I we feel it's perfect. On letterbox it's perfect, on full widescreen it's great too, but sometimes I zoom the picture a bit smaller...(it's all taste)...I am building a huge theater in my basement as well. We also have a drop down electric in our master bedroom...(yes, I'm addicted to front projection)... :)

I'm always curious how this stuff has been dealt with by other hubbies.

Grow some b*lls.

Just kidding. ;)

Seriously, if you can't have a dedicated room - simply look at some websites like Audio Video Interiors to get some ideas. Chuckken posted soem pics of a beautiful room with light colored walls.

"I AM likely limited to a ceiling-mount for the projector (making the HP screen out). "

Depends; I have my pj at 7' at 23' back, and sitting at 13' I estimate I'm getting about 1.8 gain, along with all the other HP benefits.

I'll second this.

My PJ is on the underside of a 7' soffit (which puts the lens at ~6'7" from the floor). The top edge of the screen is right at about 7'. The PJ is about 14' from a10' wide HiPower. Seating is 12'6" away.

Great picture...plenty of pop for bright scenes (even after 400 hours on the lamp).

While I know I'm getting less than the ~3x the HiPower can give on-axis, it's definitely brighter than a piece of white paper held up to it.

Great comments and advice guys. Thanks.

As to just "jumping in" there are still domestic negotiations (and finances) to work out. Allow me to muse about selling this HT projector stuff to my wife (because she had been expecting a bigger plasma if anything, and minimal intrusion into our decor).

I am asking a fair amount of my wife, in that I wish to take over our front living room for this venture. We don't really spend much time in there at the moment (almost all family activity takes place in the back family room), but it IS the room we probably put the most decor $ into years ago and it IS the front room of the house. (Hell, I'd still be happy to paint it very dark colors). So as far as the negotiations for decor/projector, I can see one rational for buying the projector more quickly with our existing (very sub-optimal) decor. It's a minimal intrusion to get the ball rolling.

But then there's also the psychological/negotiation element. We get the projector, it looks great THEN I try and break out the "honey, we need to paint the walls dark..." business. Could be an even harder sell because it is likely to be met with the spine-chillingly popular "Why? It looks fine as it is. Forget it, no ugly dark walls!"

At least I can perhaps include the darker decor in the negotiations. "Honey...for a projector to look fantastic it really helps when the walls aren't really light colored...we'll make the place a darker, richer decor...it'll look great...etc..."

I'm always curious how this stuff has been dealt with by other hubbies.

Room color/treatment REALLY helps.

Perhaps pictures (http://caesare.homeip.net:32171/basement) of some nicely done darker-colored rooms will help her to visualize what's possible?

(not that mine are likely for a living room, but still...)

Thanks Ckuckken.

My wife and I are in process of building a home in which we will have a home theater incorporated into our basement family room.

The arrangement my wife prefers would put the couch against a back wall exactly 14 ft from the screen (approx. 10ft diag.). I was wondering if 14 ft is a good distance or if it is too close.

Do you feel you are far enough back from your screen?

Many recommendations are givein in screen widths. I'm 12'6" back from a 10' wide (135" diag.) screen which equates to a 1.25x seating distance. I love the immersive field of view.

I wouldn't wat to watch much SD material like this though.

Oh I envy the folks who can make a dedicated room.

Still, at the same time, I think I'd ultimately prefer a room that is sort of more integrated into the house as it were, vs a basement hideaway that I retreat to. Compromises abound.

As for scaesare's post:

I'll second this.

My PJ is on the underside of a 7' soffit (which puts the lens at ~6'7" from the floor). The top edge of the screen is right at about 7'. The PJ is about 14' from a10' wide HiPower. Seating is 12'6" away.

Great picture...plenty of pop for bright scenes (even after 400 hours on the lamp).

While I know I'm getting less than the ~3x the HiPower can give on-axis, it's definitely brighter than a piece of white paper held up to it.

That sounds great! However, directly behind the viewing sofa in my room are the three big, feature bay windows. There's no way a projector is going to sit head height (or even below 8 feet) in front of those windows, obstructing view and ruining the aesthetics of that area. I've wondered about some sort of lifting device in which the projector is out of view, behind the sofa, not obstructing the windows, but which raises the projector up to head height when in use (hence enabling HP screen). But that appears a very pricey proposition. A ceiling mounted projector is the cheapest way to walk the aesthetic line in my case.

From what I understand of your setup, unless you can get complete blackout for those windows that will be directly behind the projector the light that would leak through blinds, or curtains, would be in a very bad position to reflect of the screen right back at you in your seating/viewing areas. I think whether you used an angular reflective (firehawk, silverstar, studiotek, etc) or retro reflective (high power) screen this could be a bad setup for your PQ.

I would definitely consider a smaller screen if you went with the RS1 or a BRIGHT light cannon if you intended to use the PJ for lots of daytime viewing without (your wife, maybe) compromising some more on aesthetics.

I plan on complete black out capabilities for those windows.

But even still, day-time viewing is not much of an issue. I'm the movie nut in the house and I never, ever watch movies in the daytime. It's strictly a night-time activity for me so I don't have to worry on that count. For the kids, they won't be so picky if the PQ isn't perfect in the day. And we always have the plasma in the other room for day-viewing.

I sit about 13' from the 133" HP. I think I'm getting about 1.8 gain.

Rich, my room is not dedicated at all, and the picture looks great (at night).

Many recommendations are givein in screen widths. I'm 12'6" back from a 10' wide (135" diag.) screen which equates to a 1.25x seating distance. I love the immersive field of view.

I wouldn't wat to watch much SD material like this though.

I'm in the process of trying to decide on screen size for a RS1 and find your comments very timely. At present I have a temporary pj and an showing it on my wall; I sit ~ 12.5 ft back, and my wife about a ft further. I started out thinking that I wanted a 133" diag (Dalite HiPower), but after a few days of experiementing I've backed off to 119" diag (and having tried half-way, 126", quite a bit also). I find 126" diag, and even 133", to be very nice for slow pans of the African plains, etc., but for movies or HDTV with much movement at all I find it very difficult to follow the action without my eyes darting all around, very unpleasant and distracting. 119" is about the largest where I can follow significant movement without much difficulty. This puts me at ~ 1.44 SW, a bit closer than the standard 1.5, but not nearly as close as you. Of course this may be partly due to my 66 yr old eyes (and brain!). You obviously don't have such problems, right?

As far as screen size, from my playing around with projector throws and zooms, there seems to be something of a trade-off to consider. (Aside from my playing with these elements in store evals, my pal reviews projectors and we've done a fair bit of playing with projector distance/zooming to see how close one can mimic the "plasma effect.")

Obviously bigger is more immersive. But a smaller image (e.g. projector closer, or zooming in) also seems to add a compelling element of image "density" and dimensionality to the image. I don't believe (at this point in my experience) that it's just a case of increased brightness...in that a bigger image on a higher gain screen would have the same effect. Rather, it seems that squeezing all the picture information - color and detail - into a smaller image seems to increase this sense of clarity and density of image. It gains more of the "reach-in-and-touch" it, sculptural effect.

Of course you also balance this with possibly higher black levels as a trade off. But it's an element of PQ that will play into my decision on screen size.

I'm in the process of trying to decide on screen size for a RS1 and find your comments very timely. At present I have a temporary pj and an showing it on my wall; I sit ~ 12.5 ft back, and my wife about a ft further. I started out thinking that I wanted a 133" diag (Dalite HiPower), but after a few days of experiementing I've backed off to 119" diag (and having tried half-way, 126", quite a bit also). I find 126" diag, and even 133", to be very nice for slow pans of the African plains, etc., but for movies or HDTV with much movement at all I find it very difficult to follow the action without my eyes darting all around, very unpleasant and distracting. 119" is about the largest where I can follow significant movement without much difficulty. This puts me at ~ 1.44 SW, a bit closer than the standard 1.5, but not nearly as close as you. Of course this may be partly due to my 66 yr old eyes (and brain!). You obviously don't have such problems, right?

I've generally heard that many of the seating distances associated with the ability to no longer resolve single pixels (1.e. 2x-ish for 720p PJ's, and >1.5x-sish for 1080p units). Aside from that, you are certainly right that there's lots of room for personal preference in simply how much of your periphery you want the image in. I certainly don't think there's any "right" or "wrong" in anybody's HT seating distance, other than what's comfortable for them. Just like what seats you like at the theatre.

Speaking of which, while I was planning/building my HT, I began to take notice of where I sat in movie theaters. While the intro slides were playing and there was enough light, I'd count ceiling tiles... both to determine how wide the screen was, and how far back from it I enjoyed sitting. I found I was consistently in the 1.2x to 1.4x range. we experimented a bit with out seating placement at home, and 1.25x was just about right for us, and the room.

You do have a few years on me :), so maybe it will change in the future, but I find that field of view such that the entire screen is within my view, and I only need to move my eyes to follow a subject. I don't feel I'm constantly darting back and forth just to "assemble" the single image in my mind...

Rich,

"Rather, it seems that squeezing all the picture information - color and detail - into a smaller image seems to increase this sense of clarity and density of image."

Do you notice this after moving closer to keep the relative viewing distance constant? Otherwise that would explain it, along with more brightness.

Noah,

Yes, having experimented with viewing distances as well with this effect, I do find the palpability factor pretty much remains as I move closer to the screen. That's why I've considered not going as big as I can image-wise, and perhaps having a slightly smaller screen but a closer viewing distance. I still have experiments to do though.

I've generally heard that many of the seating distances associated with the ability to no longer resolve single pixels (1.e. 2x-ish for 720p PJ's, and >1.5x-sish for 1080p units). Aside from that, you are certainly right that there's lots of room for personal preference in simply how much of your periphery you want the image in. I certainly don't think there's any "right" or "wrong" in anybody's HT seating distance, other than what's comfortable for them. Just like what seats you like at the theatre.

Speaking of which, while I was planning/building my HT, I began to take notice of where I sat in movie theaters. While the intro slides were playing and there was enough light, I'd count ceiling tiles... both to determine how wide the screen was, and how far back from it I enjoyed sitting. I found I was consistently in the 1.2x to 1.4x range. we experimented a bit with out seating placement at home, and 1.25x was just about right for us, and the room.

You do have a few years on me :), so maybe it will change in the future, but I find that field of view such that the entire screen is within my view, and I only need to move my eyes to follow a subject. I don't feel I'm constantly darting back and forth just to "assemble" the single image in my mind...

Thanks much for the feedback. In the time that I wrote the note you responded to, I've just about switched my preference from 119" diag back to 126" (133" is still too much for me)! So I'm going to continue experiementing a few days before ordering the screen.

Re your description on your movie theater experience, I did a similar thing by holding my ballpoint pen out at arm's length and measuring the number of 'pen widths' of the movie screen. It always seemed to have come out to be ~ 3 pen widths. And that is basically what the 126" diag pic is from 12.5' away. So maybe this will be it for us.

Thanks much for the feedback. In the time that I wrote the note you responded to, I've just about switched my preference from 119" diag back to 126" (133" is still too much for me)! So I'm going to continue experiementing a few days before ordering the screen.

Re your description on your movie theater experience, I did a similar thing by holding my ballpoint pen out at arm's length and measuring the number of 'pen widths' of the movie screen. It always seemed to have come out to be ~ 3 pen widths. And that is basically what the 126" diag pic is from 12.5' away. So maybe this will be it for us.

Cool. One thing I will say, is that if your room allows it, I'd error on the size of slightly larger, than slightly smaller, and then adjust your seating for the distance you've determined you liked.

The reason being, that I feel that cues regarding scale still make a difference. That is, even though a 10' wide screen with seating at 15' is the same relative field of view as a 2' wide screen at 3' distance, the scale of the room, the size of the screen relative to your body, the width of the sound field, etc... make a larger presentation feel more spectacular...

Cool. One thing I will say, is that if your room allows it, I'd error on the size of slightly larger, than slightly smaller, and then adjust your seating for the distance you've determined you liked.

The reason being, that I feel that cues regarding scale still make a difference. That is, even though a 10' wide screen with seating at 15' is the same relative field of view as a 2' wide screen at 3' distance, the scale of the room, the size of the screen relative to your body, the width of the sound field, etc... make a larger presentation feel more spectacular...

Sounds like very good advice. Since this is a relatively modest size room (the orginal master bedroom when the house was built in the 1920's, but just 17x14), 12.5 to 13.5 ft is about the max viewing distance. And in deciding to go for 126" diag I feel that I am pushing the size a bit; 119" diag also looks very nice.

Well, I followed Tryg's advice, and purchased a 100" High Power for my quasi bat-cave. I'm throwing from a Pearl at 13.5' in low bulb mode, with the projector ceiling mounted on a Chief adjustable extension column, precisely centered on the screen, just over a foot above my head at the primary viewing position of 11'. After some tweaking, the image is palpably punchy, yet utterly cinematic, and renders the aesthetically awkward projector placement an easily acceptable compromise. Tryg knows of what he speaks.

I surely like the HP idea, but isn't it a tad uncomfortable having the projector so darned close to your head. Seems to me I'd have trouble ignoring it. Even one as quiet as the Pearl.

I surely like the HP idea, but isn't it a tad uncomfortable having the projector so darned close to your head. Seems to me I'd have trouble ignoring it. Even one as quiet as the Pearl.

It hasn't been an issue. The Pearl is extremely quiet in low bulb mode, and the projector is also about two and a half feet behind, as well as, slightly over a foot above my head. As the bulb ages, I have sufficient clearance to lower the mount even more ( effectively further narrowing the angle between the lens and my eyes within the gain cone, though with my current modest settings, I'm not sure it will be necessary ) The gain appears to be perfectly consistent across the screen surface with zero sparkles, and off axis gain fall off, is remarkably linear. Seeing really is believing with this product, and now I completely understand why owners tend to be so enthusiastic about it.

One last thought, Rich. Now that I've finally gone FP, I'll always have one in my home. There's just no going back once you've experienced theatrical immersion with no distractions beyond your control.

It hasn't been an issue. The Pearl is extremely quiet in low bulb mode, and the projector is also about two and a half feet behind, as well as, slightly over a foot above my head. As the bulb ages, I have sufficient clearance to lower the mount even more ( effectively further narrowing the angle between the lens and my eyes within the gain cone, though with my current modest settings, I'm not sure it will be necessary ) The gain appears to be perfectly consistent across the screen surface with zero sparkles, and off axis gain fall off, is remarkably linear. Seeing really is believing with this product, and now I completely understand why owners tend to be so enthusiastic about it.

I'm in a similar situation... the PJ is about 18" behind me and, assuming my eyes are ~40" off the ground, about 3' above me. It's not distracting in the least, I never even know it's there.