What's the deal with the crappy HD from NBC on show's like ER and Studio 60. I mean Jay Leno looks really good but then these shows have smear and just look terrible. In case there are questions I've got a 60" Sony KDS60XBR2 and Comcast HD...

It's less NBC and more the producers choice on the look.

And you can add "Friday Night Lights" to the group.

The producers apparently believe a grainy look gives their shows a more realistic feel.

I've always thought ER looked pretty good, but Studio 60 looks really bad.

Saturday Night Live is probably thet best looking live HD i've seen on TV. But then ya Studio 60 is hideous. Obviously NBC is capable of transmitting very good looking HD, but I just find their dramas don't quite have the wow factor that most CBS, or even ABC dramas have in terms of HD clarity.

I mean Jay Leno looks really good but then these shows have smear and just look terrible.
One difference, which should appear with other network's programming, is that Leno is 1080/60i originated, the broadcasting format, and the other shows mentioned are 24p originated, with duplicated TV fields (2-3 pulldown). There's a staggering variety of ways different displays can show 24p-originated material, and some LCD designs contribute to image smearing. One fairly costly way of gaining more display control over reverse 2-3 pulldown (extracting 24p) is buying an external video processor (see that forum here) that likely does a better job. Some setups can display 24p without the processing judder that blurs images. -- John

but I just find their dramas don't quite have the wow factor that most CBS, or even ABC dramas have in terms of HD clarity.
I agree.

Studio 60 on the other hand just looks so bad. Is everything supposed to be out of focus? SNL is not like that which the show is based after right?

I agree.

Studio 60 on the other hand just looks so bad. Is everything supposed to be out of focus? SNL is not like that which the show is based after right?

I haven't seen Studio 60 - but do they do the same thing as they used to with "Larry Sanders" (I think) - in that the "behind the scenes" stuff was shot on film (or given a film look - with 24fps motion, and "filmic" shooting style), whereas the "show" (i.e. what the viewers at home watching the show supposedly being made would have seen) shot 60i video using conventional video gear, and multi-camera "ped-based" shooting?

Do the "on camera" bits look as bad as the "behind the scenes" stuff if they make the same distinction?

Another factor is if your NBC station multicasts and has sub channels which take away bandwith from the HD feed.
WNBC-DT in NYC has two sub channels. They also have alot of macroblocking not matter what the programming is from NBC-HD.

I think Law and Order is the best looking and most natural HD show on broadcast HD today. But yeah, Studio 60 looks like junk. It looks better in SD on my old 32" Sony.

Blah Blah Blah....do you remember West Wing? Same thing. I think it's Sorkin's view of reality.

ER looks great .

Heroes looks really good.

I haven't seen Studio 60 - but do they do the same thing as they used to with "Larry Sanders" (I think) - in that the "behind the scenes" stuff was shot on film (or given a film look - with 24fps motion, and "filmic" shooting style), whereas the "show" (i.e. what the viewers at home watching the show supposedly being made would have seen) shot 60i video using conventional video gear, and multi-camera "ped-based" shooting?
No Studio 60 is all film, even the "show within the show".

No Studio 60 is all film, even the "show within the show".

Thanks for that - so it is all 24Hz originated 3:2 converted to 60i. Pity - I found the 60i vs 24p on Larry Sanders worked very effectively.

Studio 60 differs from Larry Sanders in that little if any is shown from the video camera's perspective other than what is seen on the monitors.

Stop blaming the networks and local stations for percieved poor coloremitry and resolution. Compression artifacts are another matter and directly the fault of the transmission chain.

Color balance, image sharpness, lighting are all creative decisions the technical side of the networks have no control over. They simply load the digital air master tapes into the playout server and send them on their way via various compression systems. They do not alter color balance or resolution for creative reasons. Now on network origionated shows such as "Leno" they do in fact control these paramaters byut the mainstream eposodic primetime schedule is all farmed out to production companies who in turn use their technical facility of choice.

I can honestly say all networks have identical baseband image quality. It''s SMPTE 292 which is either working or not. One modern network's internal baseband transmission path is no better than the others. Even in the old analog days the technical plants produced identical quality as the industry sets the engineering standards for signal transmission quality.

Same for post production, they too all use the same basic equipment. How it's adjusted is another matter. This is done under the supervision and approval of the show's producers. They control the look. If you are unhappy with the image quality, write to the production company or studio footing the bill. It's easy to find in the credits.

Here's some Studio 60 caps from last week:

http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/7143/studio601ljl0.th.jpg (http://img409.imageshack.us/my.php?image=studio601ljl0.jpg)http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/5258/studio602lap5.th.jpg (http://img83.imageshack.us/my.php?image=studio602lap5.jpg)http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/3138/studio603lqe8.th.jpg (http://img83.imageshack.us/my.php?image=studio603lqe8.jpg)http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/7564/studio604lwi3.th.jpg (http://img409.imageshack.us/my.php?image=studio604lwi3.jpg)http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/9504/studio605lxe4.th.jpg (http://img409.imageshack.us/my.php?image=studio605lxe4.jpg)http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/7800/studio606lit3.th.jpg (http://img83.imageshack.us/my.php?image=studio606lit3.jpg)

Compared to Heroes from the same night:

http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/9348/heroes1lgj3.th.jpg (http://img83.imageshack.us/my.php?image=heroes1lgj3.jpg)http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/2131/heroes3lte6.th.jpg (http://img83.imageshack.us/my.php?image=heroes3lte6.jpg)http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/1015/heroes5lnn8.th.jpg (http://img413.imageshack.us/my.php?image=heroes5lnn8.jpg)http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/2276/heroes6lyn3.th.jpg (http://img409.imageshack.us/my.php?image=heroes6lyn3.jpg)http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/2201/heroes9lfj5.th.jpg (http://img413.imageshack.us/my.php?image=heroes9lfj5.jpg)http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/4558/heroes7lnu4.th.jpg (http://img409.imageshack.us/my.php?image=heroes7lnu4.jpg)

Good example of showing just how bad Studio 60 looks. Makes you wonder why they are even spending the extra money on it being HD.

Color balance, image sharpness, lighting are all creative decisions the technical side of the networks have no control over. They simply load the digital air master tapes into the playout server and send them on their way via various compression systems.Once upon a time networks did have representatives that often attended transfers for QC. Those days appear to be long past. While it can be argued that the creative element is less hindered, the variance is greater than ever. Studio 60's soft, dark and grainy images may help with the story telling but I think many feel that it's been taken to an extreme. There was a series (I think on CBS) that had such over saturated flesh tones that everyone looked severely sunburned. In that case I didn't see how it enhanced the story telling at all. It looked very much like red was pushed on an old 6 vector color corrector - no color detail.

I don't argue against creative grading and filtering. Cold case looking cold and CSI Miami looking warm help the feel of the show. While Studio 60 shouldn't look like Heroes, it could retain it's dark feeling without the excessively grainy and soft images. Of course that's just my opinion as a viewer.

BTW I think Heroes is on the enhanced side, but this adds to it's comic book story line.

Clearly, from these examples, Studio 60, is more 'artistic' than Heroes. Perhaps the Studio 60 cameras use denser silk-pantyhose filtering. ;-) -- John

Last night, Studio 60 had a lot of "sparkles" in it. I was receiving it HD throug D* on MPEG 4 format. All the other channels were fine, so it wasn't my HDMI connection.

If you want to see the highest quality HD over NBC, get your antenna, so you can view NBC HD uncompressed, and watch Late Night with Conan. Only PQ problem would be with the set, in my case SSE.

Yea it is important to dilineate that this may not be an NBC problem per se, but rather coincidences of softer looking NBC episodic programming. I personally thought Heroes and Law & Order look pretty good, though you absolutely cannot compare SNL to an episodic drama shot on film. This like comparing a DAT to an analog tape master. SNL is a 30 fps/ 60i 1080i show that is broadcast live, versus a show like Studio 60 which is acquired on 35mm film...apples and oranges...even with the soft focus look of the Aaron Sorkin shows, i'd be willing to bet the original master kicks the crap out of any live NBC HD broadcast anyday of the week.

Post production and transmission however are different issues altogether (not to mention the low-noise look of HDTV is not an aesthetic shared by the film community. In truth most cinematographers and feature directors want their shows to look like film, grain and all. Sorry HD people if that is offensive, but that's just how it is and IT IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE ANYTIME SOON. Expecting any different is like asking Da Vinci to create The Last Supper in Photoshop).

If you want to see the highest quality HD over NBC, get your antenna, so you can view NBC HD uncompressed, and watch Late Night with Conan. Only PQ problem would be with the set, in my case SSE.

You have a lot to learn. Having your signal ota does not make it uncompressed.

You have a lot to learn. Having your signal ota does not make it uncompressed.
True. I guess you could say it's less compressed than say from D* and cable. There are ways to capture the feed coming from NBC to its affiliates as some people on here do it that way. I don't know how to do it, so if interested do a search for it.

no home user would be able to capture that feed. FWIW my cable feed is exactly the same as ota

If you are referring to motion smear on NBC programming, I see this as well. (My local affiliate is KNTV, San Jose, which I am getting off-air). It looks like something that pros call "recursive noise reduction" (and *bad* recursive noise reduction, to boot, with obvious ghosting and motion smear). It appears on *every* NBC dramatic series. I do not see this on any of the other networks, so I know it has nothing to do with my equipment.

I don't know if my local affiliate is running its entire signal through a noise reduction processor or if it's something else. But I find it obtrusive and annoying.

Someone hit on the reason for Studio 60's 'blurry' look - the producer (sorkin) who also produced west wing, liked the sort of "warm" color/sharpness scheme on his show and this is why S60, though in HD, has that sort PQ we're talking about. I didn't see West Wing in HD when it was on (was it in HD? i think so) but I bet it was a similar PQ. In other words, it's intentional, not a compressed resolution or whatever. the comparison with Heroes above is a good way to see this. My wife actually "likes" the soft PQ of Studio 60 and laughs at me when I complain about it! :)

Someone hit on the reason for Studio 60's 'blurry' look - the producer (sorkin) who also produced west wing, liked the sort of "warm" color/sharpness scheme on his show and this is why S60, though in HD, has that sort PQ we're talking about. I didn't see West Wing in HD when it was on (was it in HD? i think so) but I bet it was a similar PQ. In other words, it's intentional, not a compressed resolution or whatever. the comparison with Heroes above is a good way to see this. My wife actually "likes" the soft PQ of Studio 60 and laughs at me when I complain about it! :)
Lots of West Wing threads and commentary here a while back. Believe many episodes were telecined 16mm, which does deliver a softer look than 35mm, but in addition recall complaints about images being too dim--even though they represented a darkened White House interior. Recall some intriguing WW posts, from cinematographers, detailing the types of silk pantyhose used to filter camera lenses !

Earlier above I cited the often mentioned differences between 1080/60i programming (late-night talk shows, etc.) and 1080/24p programs (most dramas). If viewer's 1080/60i programming (live or recorded) from the same station doesn't have smearing or obvious blurriness but 24p programs do, don't see how it could anything but a problem with home equipment--other than an odd-ball station encoder problem. Multicasting could be a factor, but it should influence both 1080/24p and 1080/60i programs. -- John

no home user would be able to capture that feed.
You sure? I was pm'ing with one guy who had it setup as an HTPC and was getting some of the network feeds.

You sure? I was pm'ing with one guy who had it setup as an HTPC and was getting some of the network feeds.

Network feeds are generally distributed via fiber optic fronthaul or satellite uplink. It would be very unlikely for consumer HTPC gear to be able to (1) receive one of these signals and (2) properly decrypt it. Networks go through extraordinary efforts to keep this from happening. Unless your friend is doing this with the help of some sort of insider information, (transponder info, sat coordinates, etc) and i'm not sure this is legal.