Hello, Noob here:

I've been trying to make up my mind btw 2 Toshiba models, the 160gb RD-XS35 and it's hard drive-less cousin the D-R5. As far as I can tell (and granted, I've been looking through dvr models so much the past few days, I may be seeing stars @ this point), the only major difference btw the two is the presence of the HDD in the RD-XS35. I already have a Scientific Atlantic Explorer 8300 w/ Bright House (frmly TWC), so I thought maybe (even w/ some rigging) I could just use the hard drive from the cable if need be (planning on manually recording most tv shows).

Does anyone else know a good reason(s) why I should plunk down another $200+ for the HDD model?

Thanks

I own Panasonic DVD recorders and I wouldn't have one that didn't have a hard drive. Ease of editing is one of the main reasons but SPEED is the major reason. With a hard drive you can burn a 2 hour DVD in 8 minutes or less. Thats 8 DVD's in 1 hour. Without a hard drive it will take 2 hours. I suspect all brands of DVD recorders have the same high speed copying mode in their hard drive models.

Dave

I own Panasonic DVD recorders and I wouldn't have one that didn't have a hard drive. Ease of editing is one of the main reasons but SPEED is the major reason. With a hard drive you can burn a 2 hour DVD in 8 minutes or less. Thats 8 DVD's in 1 hour. Without a hard drive it will take 2 hours. I suspect all brands of DVD recorders have the same high speed copying mode in their hard drive models.

Dave


Hm, you know I didn't think about that. The idea of spending a couple HOURS just to burn one disc is ridiculous. Thanks for bringing that up, it really makes me lean (even more, lol) in the direction of the HDD recorder.

Not to mention that a HD allows you to:

1) Edit everything down (cut out commercials) BEFORE you burn to disk, and

2) Dub (including high speed with RAM) disks back to the HD for fast copying or further editing.

Think of it this way. Where would you be if your computer did not have a hard drive? You'd have to rely solely on inserting and re-inserting disks of some type. Like the first Apples and PC's made. YUCK!

:confused:

PS: Many posters here who bought a Panny (for example) without a HD --- have since posted that they wish they had gone with a HD model.

...and exactly what I was afraid of if I didn't get one w/ a HDD; great points u bring up as well. The last thing I'd want is to regret the purchase & either have to live w/ it or go thru the hoops of returns & exchanges.

btw:



2) Dub (including high speed with RAM) disks back to the HD for fast copying or further editing.



-I read elsewhere on the forum that accurate editing (like cutting commercials) is hard to do/impossible with hi speed dubbing. Is this true? Would I have to do 'real time' dubbing if I edit tightly, or does it matter?

thanks for answering my Qs everyone, really appreciate it!

I read elsewhere on the forum that accurate editing (like cutting commercials) is hard to do/impossible with hi speed dubbing. Is this true? Would I have to do 'real time' dubbing if I edit tightly, or does it matter?



I think you're referring to the discussions where some prefer NOT to edit any of the original material, but choose to set chapter marks to tell the dub what material to leave out of the dub process.

Real time dubbing works very well on the Panny's, is easy to do, but can be a little time consuming.

I prefer to use "shorten segment" function. You just FFWD to the approximate start of a commercial and then pause. Once paused, you can advance (or reverse) very slowly (frame by frame) to the "almost" exact frame. Plenty close enough for most needs. With some practice I doubt you'd have any problem with the results.

Keep in mind that you are actually cutting out the commercials while the recording is STILL on the HDD. Then, when you dub to disk it is easy with no further editing steps.

:)

Ah, ok. lol, I think I'm just confusing myself @ this point. I have to obsess over questions like this b4 buying anything. Thanks for indulging :D

I'd like to add that having an HDD-equipped recorder is more than just the features, it actually improves the whole recording experience. This is something that's difficult to quantify, but never having to worry if you have a recordable disc in the machine or whether it has enough capacity is a real burden lifted. And if you're trying to record different series onto different discs, you don't have to worry about changing media between back-to-back shows. Having an HDD is a tremendously liberating thing that's hard to put a price on, but everyone who's got one never seems to regret it.

Hello, Noob here:

I've been trying to make up my mind btw 2 Toshiba models, the 160gb RD-XS35 and it's hard drive-less cousin the D-R5. As far as I can tell (and granted, I've been looking through dvr models so much the past few days, I may be seeing stars @ this point), the only major difference btw the two is the presence of the HDD in the RD-XS35. I already have a Scientific Atlantic Explorer 8300 w/ Bright House (frmly TWC), so I thought maybe (even w/ some rigging) I could just use the hard drive from the cable if need be (planning on manually recording most tv shows).

Does anyone else know a good reason(s) why I should plunk down another $200+ for the HDD model?

Thanks


That is more or less the situation that I'm in. I just use my Satellite's Co's DVR to record the program, then I use a NON-HDD DVD Recorder to burn the program to a disc and use the recorders PAUSE button to edit out commericals.

This technique works well for me and eliminates the need for a HDD recorder.


nx211

That is more or less the situation that I'm in. I just use my Satellite's Co's DVR to record the program, then I use a NON-HDD DVD Recorder to burn the program to a disc and use the recorders PAUSE button to edit out commericals.

This technique works well for me and eliminates the need for a HDD recorder.


nx211

I have a Comcast DVR with a 120GB HDD, and a Pio 640 with a 160GB HDD. I use the HDD of the Pio ALL THE TIME, for lots of things that wouldn't be possible on the DVR. Also, the HDD of the DVR isn't big enough, so the extra 160 GB on the DVDR is all that keeps extra space on the DVR for HD programming. I agree with Sean, I don't think anyone would ever regret buying one with a HDD. If it is a financial burden, that is another question.

That is more or less the situation that I'm in. I just use my Satellite's Co's DVR to record the program, then I use a NON-HDD DVD Recorder to burn the program to a disc and use the recorders PAUSE button to edit out commericals.That works well enough if you have a DVR, but even so an HDD-equipped DVD recorder can do the same thing in about 1/4 of the time (including the editing of the commercials) because it can copy from the HDD to DVD at high speed.

My Motorola hi-def DVR is great, as far as it goes, but capacity is severely limited -- seven two-hr. HD movies and it's full. So the extra capacity of a DVD recorder w/hard drive is greatly appreciated (even though it can't record hi-def). Also, the TV Guide feature of the Panasonic recorder is in many ways better than the cable company's on-screen listings.

I own a non HDD panasonic recorder and archive using my DirecTivo and DVD-R's or time shift using my HD STB and DVD-RAM. The down side of a non HDD recorder I found is sporting events. In order to record the superbowl I set up a 4 hr recording. Even though the source was my HD STB, which usually produces excellent 1 hr recordings, the superbowl was really poor(PQ and results). With a HDD, I could record at a higher bit rate, edit out the junk, and be left with a watchable superbowl recording that fit on one DVD. I suspect it is the motion in the game. But I feel a HDD would have helped.

If you don't have a specific budget for this purchase, a HDD recorder is much more flexible and efficient regardless.

But it also depends on usage patterns and what you plan to record/watch, so there's really not one answer that fits all.

<u>Personal Segment:</u> I have a non-HDD recorder and a dual-tuner DVR from the cable company and it works well for me since I watch-record and that has the side-effect of getting rid of fluff/commercials with very little extra effort. I was tempted to replace the DVR with an HDD-recorder, but since HDD-recorders are single-tuner and they only have analog tuners, I would need two HDD-recorders and an extra cable box/card to completely replace the dual-tuner DVR's functionality. The HDD-recorders would definately be a lot more beneficial, practical and efficient in this case, but the total cost would be well above my allocated AV budget.

ncaahoops: I don't quite follow why you would need TWO HDD recorders in the above setup. Two cable boxes, yes, so one can be the slave of the HDD recorder, but why three recording devices?

ncaahoops: I don't quite follow why you would need TWO HDD recorders in the above setup. Two cable boxes, yes, so one can be the slave of the HDD recorder, but why three recording devices?

I was pointing out what would be needed to replace the capability to record any two programs (eg two digital channels), on a HDD without using the cable-company dual-tuner DVR. I am not sure which is the 3rd recording device you are referring to? The non-HDD recorder wouldn't do since it doesn't have an HDD. The cable-company DVR would be returned and replaced with a cable box.

There are many other usable combinations and permutations of devices I could/can use, each with its own set of +/-. I was merely pointing out what would completely replace the dual-tuner cable company DVR as far as recording functionality.

I'd like to add that having an HDD-equipped recorder is more than just the features, it actually improves the whole recording experience.

I totally agree, and that makes it all the more curious that nobody seems willing to make a new HDD-equipped recorder. (By "new" I mean one with an integrated ATSC tuner.)

...
-I read elsewhere on the forum that accurate editing (like cutting commercials) is hard to do/impossible with hi speed dubbing. Is this true? Would I have to do 'real time' dubbing if I edit tightly, or does it matter?

Accuracy in editting is not a factor of high speed vs real time dubbing, but rather a factor of how the information is stored. Yes, 30 frames per second get stored, but not 30 complete frames. In order to get a reasonable amount of program stored on a dvd, the information undergoes a considerable compression, so you start with a complete frame called an index frame, then only changes for the next 14 frames, an index frame and 14 partial frames of the changes, and so on.

So, if you mark your edit point on say, frame 22, the machine will have to wait till the next index frame to begin recording data.

I may not be technically precise in my explanation, but I think the concept is accurate.

In practical terms (my experience has been with Panasonic E100, E85, and EH55)
high speed copies generate about a 1-second freeze at each edit point when the dvd is played back. In my case, for lptv broadcast, that delay is unacceptable.

These dvdr's provide an option for "seamless playback"; when dubbed in real time, these freezes disappear. Drawbacks to the real time dubbing are losing your selected chapter skips and thumbnail changes.

Richard

That is more or less the situation that I'm in. I just use my Satellite's Co's DVR to record the program, then I use a NON-HDD DVD Recorder to burn the program to a disc and use the recorders PAUSE button to edit out commericals.

This technique works well for me and eliminates the need for a HDD recorder.

It works for you, fine.

But I'm very glad to get past the "pause, FF, unpause, <WAIT>, pause, FF, unpause.." insanity.. (Heck, even with VCRs I thought that was insane, and had one JVC VCR that would do the pause/ff/unpause trick on a destination VCR.. though it was really slow and not very accurate at editing.. within a second or two, which was baaaaaad)

I now have 3 Tivos, and still record things to the Toshiba's internal drive, and dub a lot of things to the Toshiba, especially if I want to play it at 1.5x with sound. (If I think of it beforehand, I often will record natively rather than dub it, but dubbing it isn't too bad, since I can always watch something ELSE on my Toshiba hard drive during that, or on another Tivo... or dub before I leave in the morning.)

The DVD drive going bad is the worst part for me and a few others.

I agree with Sean, I don't think anyone would ever regret buying one with a HDD. If it is a financial burden, that is another question.

...partially. meaning, my last name isn't 'Gates', so I have a tendancy to 'up-buy' w/ electronics in the hopes that I won't need to purchase another of that particular device for a few yrs unless I really have the money for it. So far, this mentality has worked for TVs, PCs/Laptop...and I'm hoping it works for DVD recorders. I'd rather buy a machine w/ all sorts of functions I'm not sure I'll ever use, than waste $$ on one that I'll 'out-grow' in a year.

My Motorola hi-def DVR is great, as far as it goes, but capacity is severely limited -- seven two-hr. HD movies and it's full. So the extra capacity of a DVD recorder w/hard drive is greatly appreciated (even though it can't record hi-def). Also, the TV Guide feature of the Panasonic recorder is in many ways better than the cable company's on-screen listings.

My hubby & I constantly 'fight' over HDD space on the cable co. DVR; he'd love to record 24hrs of ESPN Classics, but I need my Sci-Fi & 'guilty pleasure' afternoon suds, lol :p

I guess having both would take some burden off, wouldn't it?

Accuracy in editting is not a factor of high speed vs real time dubbing, but rather a factor of how the information is stored. Yes, 30 frames per second get stored, but not 30 complete frames. In order to get a reasonable amount of program stored on a dvd, the information undergoes a considerable compression, so you start with a complete frame called an index frame, then only changes for the next 14 frames, an index frame and 14 partial frames of the changes, and so on.

So, if you mark your edit point on say, frame 22, the machine will have to wait till the next index frame to begin recording data.

I may not be technically precise in my explanation, but I think the concept is accurate.

In practical terms (my experience has been with Panasonic E100, E85, and EH55)
high speed copies generate about a 1-second freeze at each edit point when the dvd is played back. In my case, for lptv broadcast, that delay is unacceptable.

These dvdr's provide an option for "seamless playback"; when dubbed in real time, these freezes disappear. Drawbacks to the real time dubbing are losing your selected chapter skips and thumbnail changes.

Richard


Thanks Richard; actually, that clears a lot up for me. I bought my sis a non-HDD DVDR w/ a VCR since she was still a slave to VHS up 'till about 4 yrs ago, and so she has to do her dubbing in 'real time', which imo takes waaay too long. I can't stand waiting for a CD to burn on my PC, let alone taking several hours that she spends in essence re-watching shows to dubb onto the dvd.

Thanks to everyone for the advice & personal experiences; they've really helped a lot!

Just a word of caution--- my experience was with Panasonic. The Toshiba could behave differently in the Freeze vs seamless playback behavior.

Richard

My hubby & I constantly 'fight' over HDD space on the cable co. DVR; he'd love to record 24hrs of ESPN Classics, but I need my Sci-Fi & 'guilty pleasure' afternoon suds, lol :p

ESPN-Classic and ESPN-News don't take as much space on the Motorola DVR as ESPN and ESPN2, so that could be a trade-off in the HDD-Space-Negatiations, since some shows air on both channels :-)