Coming from a CRT guy who has always been and still is a DIE HARD.

Get ready guys. The RS1 is coming. It's REAL. The performance is REAL.

Keep an eye out for the direct comparison Don Kellog and I will do of the RS1 vs. my G90 stack.

Cliff

So, you think it's a CRT-killer?

So, you think it's a CRT-killer?

Editing this to make sure I do not put my foot in my mouth but it's looking like it will beat a single G90.

Cliff

Hey, I thought my new in box Panny AE700 hands down beat up my very worn-out 8500 a couple years back.

But after a week, I stayed with the worn-out 8500.

Guys yeah it's pretty intense. CRT units like the G90 have uber blacks but this RS1 has really moved the digital effort forward. When I get my RS1 in, Cliff and I will be doing a shoot out. We're gonna do it right by the books. Hopefully we can get Ken on site to do the measurements. I can't wait.

I've been very happy with CRT, and as such I was really nervous about selling my G90. After viewing the RS1 tonight at Arts, I feel much better. JVC has really stepped up to the plate on this one, and they hit the ball out of the park. Yes there are some things CRT does better mainly on APL, but the RS1 does allot of things really well IMO, best digital I have seen to date.

Knowing how Art's and Cliffs G90 stacks look, and how my single G90 looked, I can honestly say this RS1 is pretty amazing. These things are really coming into their own, we beat the piss out of that thing with know content and it held it's own, and then some. :eek:

Not trying to start a war here, both Cliff and I love CRT, I loved the G90 it was truely a second to none machine. But I have to give credit where credit is do this thing roxs.

Cool,

I might wind up with a G90 after all :)

Oh the on board processing on this PJ is also very impressive.

When is said shootout going to occur?

Cool,

I might wind up with a G90 after all :)


Ya:I noticed there are 2 G-90's for sale on the bay right now,both under $7000.00

2 G90's hmm wonder if they are scams..

The shoot out will happen as soon as I can get a RS1, there's a backlog of something like 700-750 units.

Coming from a CRT guy who has always been and still is a DIE HARD.

Get ready guys. The RS1 is coming. It's REAL. The performance is REAL.

Keep an eye out for the direct comparison Don Kellog and I will do of the RS1 vs. my G90 stack.

Cliff

Yep.

Seen it. Returned it. Not impressed.

Will keep my G70 stack. Sure is cute though.

What didn't you like about it?

Art seemed to be impressed with it - http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=808180

Hmm I could understand you seeing it but how did you get it hen the first units just came in yesterday and are in QC? They have not shipped any yet just wondering?

Yep.

Seen it. Returned it. Not impressed.

Will keep my G70 stack. Sure is cute though.

How exactly did you return a projector that hasn't even been released yet?

Remember the Ruby??

Terry

15:000:1 thats all? And a jvc? And it's a LCD- lcos is just another fancy name.
Cartoon colors. Etc-Etc. Who would of thought.

It's no Ruby I've seen the pearl and the ruby. This is pretty impressive, and it's a big major for the digitals.

Not that I'm sure the RS1 will pan out to be what everyone's first impression seems to be, but digitals were bound to catch up or surpass CRT at some point. It shouldn't be that shocking.

Still, it's a little tiny furnace that eventually cooks itself and goes thru bulbs like I go thru underwear.

If it is that good, it's going to kill the price of G90s. So for your G90 owners that are looking to upgrade, it's going to be a bitter sweet experience. I look forward to buying a G90 cheap. :)

2 G90's hmm wonder if they are scams.. The one with opening bid of $6300. looks pretty good, I think it's a forum member in Albany, 120088204201. I think I would choose this over the JVC.
the other one is burnt up POS from a junk dealer who thinks he struck pay-dirt. :rolleyes: 270089891021
Terry makes a good point, although everything looks good at this point, it's too soon to proclaim a new King of the hill, .

This is pretty impressive, and it's a big major for the digitals.
Since I'm one of the hold-outs, I'll be very interested in your impressions.
eventually cooks itself and goes thru bulbs
There is that. Too bad its to early to see a shoot out with a few hours on the JVC.
How many hours on the contending CRT? ;)
Thank you for your efforts.
Tony

I saw the HD1(RS1) this weekend. Very crt-like picture with no disturbances and the very best in processing - GennumVXP. The new Sharp has deeper blacks with more contrast(intra-field), but thats with both iris's closed and only about 250 lumen. The JVC has over 600 lumen calibrated, which I feel are a little to much for my batcave.

We looked at SinCity on the JVC, and I was truly sold. Whats better is in the eye of the beholder. The total performance is way over my previous Cine 9, but thats only my opnion.

I just read portions of Art's thread in the digital forum. I also did a google search and found one place selling replacement bulbs for $270. If you ran a bulb for 2k hours (sure it will get dim, but we're use to dim), bulb cost would be MUCH cheaper than CRT tube cost, and they're a snap to change.

The thing sounds mighty appealing. If it pans out to be everything they're saying it is, including what many of us are saying about it, then it's all over for CRT. CRT will remain an option, but for the budget minded. Forget what I said about buying a G90. I'm sure in the near future I could buy one cheap, but I'm not sure I would want one. Don doesn't want a G90 anymore. You know Cliff is going switch. Maybe even Art. If they don't want G90s, why would anyone else?

I guess I missed something. What is the street price on the RS1 going to be once supply catches up with demand?

Willie

Overall it is not going to be equal to G90 based on Art's comments.
Selling a perfectly fine hi end CRT to go for this may not be the best thing to do IMO.
Colors are not as saturated, depth is not as good, black level is not even close, there are sparklies..all and all like another nice digital (best) by its own virtue.

I for one would go for a G90 cheap... :) I don't need to have the best of the best, however, if the best is also a good value then sign me up. What is the price of the RS1? And, more important, what is the warranty of it?

Editing this to make sure I do not put my foot in my mouth but it's looking like it will beat a single G90.

Cliff



Then Cliff im afraid your G90s are either NOT setup well (I doubt that)

or you are blind :p .


I saw the HD1 (UK NAME FOR IT) - If I had thought it was that good I would have bought one there and then, I dod not so I did not order one..........

Its bright yes, internal scaler yes, but lacked depth of field, and colour unifority.........

AND if I am to believe the UK guy who set it up within 12 hours of use the lamp was showing a yellow patch on the screen :eek: .


This was written to me by a HD1 OWNER in the UK this week.........

"Six weeks have passed and, as it turns out, the JVC HD1 PJ is something very special. Whilst I'm very pleased with it, I have a number of problems not least the fact than my Oppo 970 and the HD1 just don't want to play together (aliasing issue). Also, it turns out that the HD1 overscans 480/576i/p inputs over HDMI..."


I think for those that have digital it is the best for them to aim for at a very good price, however a very good 8 inch LC or 9 CRT - Well still top of the table...................


If not you should have sold your G90s when you had the chance :confused: .


Waiting your views..................Andy.

Oh! even the UK seller agreed that CRT was able to produce better image information than the HD1.

Its ok to say something will produce 1080p but it just appeared to have less detail.......


It was VERY bright, in fact full white was way to much for me, and it was on low setting.....

I don't know why peoiple think this beats a G90, I never said that I just said that it was a large leap. I never said it matched the black levels of the G90. There are allot of things it does much better than the G90 IMO. However it's not a matter of me not wanting a G90 anymore, I decided to move to the best digital I could get. With repair parts, and lack of board knowledge I did not want to take a chance of having a large paper weight.

The black levels of this unit are really good, and everything else measures nicely. The picture really comes together in a way that reminds me of a CRT. So where along the way I think people got the idea this will dethorne a G90, NO, but it is getting allot closer.

Hey Don I know you had some troubles with that g90, But I was curious if you ever mounted and set it up in your theater?

Bruce

I had it fully setup for a long time and really liked it, the one problem that I thought I had just ended up being a switch that someone had flipped off in there (DUH). The unit was rock sold and never had issues after I reseated all the boards.

I'm not dissing the G90 it's the king hands down. The RS1 has just gained allot of ground in some key areas.

Editing this to make sure I do not put my foot in my mouth but it's looking like it will beat a single G90.

Cliff

I would suggest this might have something to do with the SMX material. I was not overly impressed with the image when stacked up against the Stewart Studiotek 130 (similar gain) and Videomatte 200 materials, using a single G90. A stacked G90 setup I think makes the SMX perform, otherwise its just too dull.

I guess I missed something. What is the street price on the RS1 going to be once supply catches up with demand?

WillieMSRP is $6,295, so maybe around $4k? What does that make a used G90 worth? What does that do to the value of all CRT PJs? :(

I just read portions of Art's thread in the digital forum. I also did a google search and found one place selling replacement bulbs for $270. If you ran a bulb for 2k hours (sure it will get dim, but we're use to dim), bulb cost would be MUCH cheaper than CRT tube cost, and they're a snap to change.

The thing sounds mighty appealing. If it pans out to be everything they're saying it is, including what many of us are saying about it, then it's all over for CRT. CRT will remain an option, but for the budget minded. Forget what I said about buying a G90. I'm sure in the near future I could buy one cheap, but I'm not sure I would want one. Don doesn't want a G90 anymore. You know Cliff is going switch. Maybe even Art. If they don't want G90s, why would anyone else?

LOL Phil. There is no way in hell I am switching. I'm keeping the stack up for at least 2 to 3 years. I want to make sure digital by then has matured enough for me to REALLY be happy. :)

Cliff

I would suggest this might have something to do with the SMX material. I was not overly impressed with the image when stacked up against the Stewart Studiotek 130 (similar gain) and Videomatte 200 materials, using a single G90. A stacked G90 setup I think makes the SMX perform, otherwise its just too dull.

Lewis,

Don and I will be doing a very detailed hopefully comparison of the RS1 and both stacked and single G90's. I hope to have lots of screenshots as well. Keep an eye out.

Cliff

How exactly did you return a projector that hasn't even been released yet?
Why would you introduce reality into someone's fantasy! :D

Ya'll are telling me that if I had purchased a Ruby a short 18 months ago or less, I will now have to sell it in order to get the latest gen of better/best LCOS PJ?? Is that what you are saying?? And you are saying that while observed as very good it still isn't quite as good as a G90 properly set up.

"Lets see, I paid $7.5K for the killer Ruby, and I'll be lucky to get $3.5 K out of it (if I can). So it's cost me about $4K for 18 months. And now I have to pay another $4K - $6K for the RS1 to get a better picture that is more CRT like and has better blacks and C/R like a CRT. hmmm $8K to $10K spent for this. Guess I should have just bought a G90 in the first place and enjoyed my picture watching movies and HD knowing I didn't need to upgrade again?"

I have no doubt that the RS1 will be a VERY good digital (the Ruby was a major step even with all it's flaws) and have always said that if there is a technology that will finally make the grade in FP to compete at the highest levels of CRT, it will be LCOS. But I will be damned if I am going to be the guinea pig and plunk my $$ into a technology that is constantly evolving every 6 months to achieve what I consider to be the best performer and has been so for many years. When it's finally ready, maybe then.

Terry

Ya'll are telling me that if I had purchased a Ruby a short 18 months ago or less, I will now have to sell it in order to get the latest gen of better/best LCOS PJ?? Is that what you are saying?? And you are saying that while observed as very good it still isn't quite as good as a G90 properly set up.

"Lets see, I paid $7.5K for the killer Ruby, and I'll be lucky to get $3.5 K out of it (if I can). So it's cost me about $4K for 18 months. And now I have to pay another $4K - $6K for the RS1 to get a better picture that is more CRT like and has better blacks and C/R like a CRT. hmmm $8K to $10K spent for this. Guess I should have just bought a G90 in the first place and enjoyed my picture watching movies and HD knowing I didn't need to upgrade again?"

I have no doubt that the RS1 will be a VERY good digital (the Ruby was a major step even with all it's flaws) and have always said that if there is a technology that will finally make the grade in FP to compete at the highest levels of CRT, it will be LCOS. But I will be damned if I am going to be the guinea pig and plunk my $$ into a technology that is constantly evolving every 6 months to achieve what I consider to be the best performer and has been so for many years. When it's finally ready, maybe then.

Terry

Well I guess in the old days you could have gone damn, you mean I just spent 20 grand on the sony 1031 and now the 1272 is out. Damn now I spent 25 grand on the 1272 and the G70 is out. Damn I just spent 30 grand on the G70 and....

(I have no idea how much the original prices were BTW).

I love the way we are all judging it one way or the other without seeing it :D

And if you were upgrading to new CRTs at new prices every 6-12 months, I would have said you were crazy then too. :)

And if you were upgrading to new CRTs at new prices every 6-12 months, I would have said you were crazy then too. :)

Exactly

Terry

Ya'll are telling me that if I had purchased a Ruby a short 18 months ago or less, I will now have to sell it in order to get the latest gen of better/best LCOS PJ??
No one has said that. There is a small % of people who will upgrade every year. The fact is that in < 7 months, when Sony introduces their next gen product or there is a 3DLP for < $20K most of those people will again upgrade and the question will be remember the RS1.

As the owner of a 1 year old Ruby and 3 year old G70 I will stand pat. Now if the RS1 had the had the bright scene CR of the Sharp 20K I just saw all bets would be off!

And if you were upgrading to new CRTs at new prices every 6-12 months, I would have said you were crazy then too. :)

Exactly my point, people keep making out that it is some evil digital plot to keep bringing out better products.

It happens in all technologies, no one says you *have* to upgrade, and the prices of these new projectors are far, far more reasonable than CRTs ever were when they were new, and are encroaching on the price bracket of high end CRTs second hand prices now.

I'm still waiting for it to be $999 though, then I could pick up a new digital and a G90 :)

But remember, no one said digitals had to be reasonable in price. Hit a "high end" audio and video "parlour" last weekend. My first in several years. Oh my. Not only did they have Wilson spkrs in stock, which are very nice, if extraordinarily expense for my budget, but they had a Mercury 3-chip dlp (store demo) marked down to 17k. While I'm no longer sure that buying a new or near new G90 for 15+k is a wise choice, I would gladly grab one, at that price, before I'd pay 17k for a dlp. (btw - wtf IS a Mercury? - I'm guessing it is something else, rebadged like my Runco, but I've never heard of one.)

As far as the constant upgrade, you only have to do that when it makes sense. Price and performance wise, of course. Shoot, as you said with the Sony crt example, you could as easily look at the evolution of the Runcos - not a whole lot of difference between any two subsequent units, and surely not enough improvement to make it worth what you know the dealers would have hit you for.

(final aside - this boutique also had a couple of Runco crts still in stock. If anyone wants a 933 for 6k, feel free to pm. :D)

Forget what I said about not wanting a G90 at any price. The more I think about it, the more the tweaker in me says I need something to tweak on. I think I'll stick with CRT for that reason alone. :cool:

Can't forget that, Phil. If one wasn't adjusting convergence, or maybe playing with new output resolutions and framerates, what would you do? Watch movies? ;) With one of the cute little boxes, you'd be up and running in 10 minutes. Where's the fun of that?

I haven't actually watched a movie in ages...

:D

Tweaking is fun! Missing a movie because you're too busy tweaking isn't a bad thing. :D

Terry I agree it's pretty expensive right now to stay on top with digitals. As with all tech stuff seems something new comes out every few months that changes everything. One of the boxes on my list was CRT is mature tech, the cons was not much advancement except for tweaking. The RS1 is a good unit to start with but yes if I had a ruby I would be really pissed right now.

For the sake of advancement I hope to see another unit that draws this much attention next year. There will be a time for everyone, and the benefit for some will be the falling prices on the high end CRT units. CRT may not be singing it's swan song yet, but its in the building and has started to clear it's throat. I don't know when the preformance starts but it will someday soon.

CRT may not be singing it's swan song yet, but its in the building and has started to clear it's throat. I don't know when the preformance starts but it will someday soon.Do a search on those words in Archive1 and Archive2... the fat lady has supposedly been on deck for years (I added some extra metaphores to yours).

Check back next month after you can actually buy an RS1, then check back in 100 hours, then check back when your bulb is at 50%, then check back after 8500 hours.

Then compare all of those checkpoints to my G90 with 8500 hours.

I'm actually cheering the trend of digitals continuing to get better and cheaper. But for the latest $6,000 projector (that nobody actually owns) to still be "almost as good as a CRT"... it's still too funny.

...be "almost as good as a CRT"...It's suppose to be almost as good as a *G90*, better in some ways, and that's according to G90 owners, not the digital boys.

Big difference.

Also, the street price will eventually be a LOT less than the $6K sticker price.

I think some group buys are getting the projector under 5k even.

I think some group buys are getting the projector under 5k even.
Drinking Cool Aid is easier in big groups :D

Well to be fare it has been released just not here, well not yet. If I was saying this based on white papers I would agree. But my eyes don't lie to me, and If what they say is true the production models are as good I would expect great things from this.

I was going to settle for a Sony Pearl for now, then I saw this unit and there is no way in hell I'm buying the Pearl. There are limits to what this tech can do in the black area. I'm sure they will hit a wall soon, and have to try other things. But if it stopped right now I would be okay with it if I had this unit. I don't see bulbs as an issue they are not that expensive, 10 bulbs at $270 gives you 10000 hours if you only use half the bulb, that's still less that 3 crt tubes for the G90 or other 9" units. I honestly would not expect more than 6k hours on a g90 tube at a ref level.

Cliff and I will do some measurements to see how this holds up when I get my unit. It will be fare as I'm very found of CRT. I want it to be done honestly and openly.

Do a search on those words in Archive1 and Archive2... the fat lady has supposedly been on deck for years (I added some extra metaphores to yours).

I'm actually cheering the trend of digitals continuing to get better and cheaper. But for the latest $6,000 projector (that nobody actually owns) to still be "almost as good as a CRT"... it's still too funny.
The fat lady already sang...and left the building. There's nothing wrong with enjoying a romantic night on the town in a horse and buggy. But when one insists said buggy is superior in performance to a BMW, a trip to the mental doctor might be in order.

I'll probably have to turn in my videophile card for saying this, but I'm not necessarily interested in the 'perfect' display, nor am I all that interested in 'tweaking' my system. What I am interested in is a damn good picture that I don't have to worry about being there when I want it. In general, that's what I like about high-quality equipment. Once you've spent the necessary time, effort, and money to set it up, you can get marvelous quality with a minimum of ongoing fuss.

That's specifically why I'll probably be with my G90 for years to come. There's an excellent (almost inevitable) chance that by then digital displays will have surpassed what I can get from the G90, but I don't care! Because its just as inevitable that the incremental difference between my really great G90 display and an 'almost perfect' one (regardless of how its generated) won't bother me much at all. (Yes, I know. I'm a baaad videophile. ;) )

With that said, its also almost certain that when I have to replace the G90, it will be with a digital system. Technology will demand it. But until that time, I'm happy with what I've got.

Oh, and BTW. Let's see, when new a G-90 stack cost $60,000 new PLUS a scaler and the insane labor involved in the installation.

A new JVC RS1 retails for 6K. Hmmm....I can sure see where that RS1 might be a bad "investment" considering all those nasty $270 bulbs that will have to be replaced every couple of years.

QQQ- ummm... how about lets see how long the G90 stack was working at peak performance and still is.... how long has it remained a reference picture? And how close was its competition?! It was miles ahead of what else was available. You would have owned the ultimate untouchable picture for years and years.... now that is an investment.

The JVC is barely comparable to a single G90, let alone a stack, and even then, how long do you think it will take before the owner wants to sell it for another digital? Sounds relatively more like a waste of money to me!

So, you think it's a CRT-killer?

A $1000 optoma is a crt killer. A light bulb gonna put out more light output than any 3gun even a 9gun. So in bright scenes=game over. Calculate how many bright scenes are in a movie vs dark demanding scenes. So when everyone rips digital for blacks-what about the bright scenes for crt? Also if your a gamer there is no way i would prefer a crt.

The fat lady already sang...and left the building. There's nothing wrong with enjoying a romantic night on the town in a horse and buggy. But when one insists said buggy is superior in performance to a BMW, a trip to the mental doctor might be in order.

Except for the emotional impact of a full fade to black, like on Nemo for instance... Or the opening starfields on ToyStory2 etc.
Or being able to display the correct refresh rate to match the source material with no Judder, whatever frame rate it may be, and not having to scale (for example) a 720P image to 1080P and the artifacts that induces when watching material at different resolutions and so on.
3D doesn't seem to work on most digitals either.
If you don't mind the fixed refresh rate as a gamer that is your choice too I guess.

Different horses for different courses, but my 'buggy' still does a few things that the newer model doesn't...

The fat lady already sang...and left the building. .


QQQ,

You are to funny. You have been saying that the latest digital PJ to hit the streets is the one that will de-throne CRT's for years now. Over and over with every new model that came out that was an advancement in digital projectors.
Perhaps if you had waited for something that really is good to hang your hat on you would have some credibility and folks might actually believe what you write.
LOL

Terry

A $1000 optoma is a crt killer. A light bulb gonna put out more light output than any 3gun even a 9gun. So in bright scenes=game over. Calculate how many bright scenes are in a movie vs dark demanding scenes. So when everyone rips digital for blacks-what about the bright scenes for crt? Also if your a gamer there is no way i would prefer a crt.

Well if you prefer a scene to 'bright' but be washed out and flat and lacking detail then sure the Optoma kills every CRT on the market.

A $1000 optoma is a crt killer. A light bulb gonna put out more light output than any 3gun even a 9gun.

:confused: This was the funniest thing I've ever read all week. Weren't you just in Art's RS1 thread where his 6 guns destroy it? Anyway, most scenes are actually low APL aren't they?

Have you even seen a well setup CRT pj to base your comments on?

A $1000 optoma is a crt killer. A light bulb gonna put out more light output than any 3gun even a 9gun. So in bright scenes=game over. Calculate how many bright scenes are in a movie vs dark demanding scenes. So when everyone rips digital for blacks-what about the bright scenes for crt? Also if your a gamer there is no way i would prefer a crt.

I don't think so. It's all about bright scenes AND dark scenes and a combination of both. What you are saying is analogous to shining a Barco Light Cannon at the screen and saying that it is a CRT killer. Really.
If I want to game on a digital (not exactly reference viewing) I would purchase a cheap digital. Although I must say (and I'm not a gamer) some of the newer PS3 and XBox360 games (1st person shooter) look mighty fine on a CRT because there is so much black material.

Terry

As the owner of a 1 year old Ruby and 3 year old G70 I will stand pat.


This is the best strategy yet. Let the other fools argue and debate while you enjoy both :D

At the rate that digitals are improving.
They will probably go past the performance point of a G90
and at that point,
we should be able to stay happy, for a long time, with the digital we've bought.

If the digital improvement curve does not flatten out
and keeps on going up.
You can Imagine a digital better than a G90
for less than 5 or 4 or 3 or 2 or $1000.
Imagine.

In the mean time I'll stay with my CRT and watch the game from the sidelines.

P.S. I Own a CD player and a record player and the record player feels better.
They are different and have different qualities.
I'm not sure digital will be able to duplicate the feel of analogue.

Ahhh, it has all been discussed a million times before and will be again, each time the digital machine edges that bit closer and the same arguments go around again.

Eventually a successor will come, but on that day it will be obvious and the arguments unnecessary, whilstever the argument ensues, you know that day is not yet here.

Also if your a gamer there is no way i would prefer a crt.

Digital beats CRT for gaming? How do you figure that? That's not the case with CRT monitors verses LCD monitors. Can you say custom resolutions and refresh rates? So why would you think projectors are any different? The only advantages digital projectors have in my mind regarding gaming is the ability to play in rooms with more ambient light and not having any worries about burn-in. Both of those advantages don't really relate to the gaming experience. Of course, while there are no worries about burn-in with digital, you do have to worry about dead pixels, which can be just as distracting as burn-in on a CRT. I played GTA Vice City and GTA San Andreas on the PC from start to finish on my 1271Q and it was an amazing experience. Half of the scenes in those games are during the night. Talk about amazing visuals!

The day is here if your in the market for a projector. Pearls are going in the 4k range. You dont need a SUV or uhaul truck to go pick one up or cranes to install them. If you dont own a projector now you dont have to worry about used. I seen a well set up pearl and the image is not washed out. For someone now considering buying crt i think they would be like a old car enthusiest.

Digital beats CRT for gaming? How do you figure that? That's not the case with CRT monitors verses LCD monitors.

Yea pc monitor i agree crt still best. Rear,front-projection crt though is not.

Hey, what's all the excitement about. This carnival has been coming to town every six months for the past fifteen years... and though they've changed some of the performances, it's still not a circus.

Yea pc monitor i agree crt still best. Rear,front-projection crt though is not.

And this opinion is based on what?

For someone now considering buying crt i think they would be like a old car enthusiest.

I agree! A CRT is like an old muscle car and digitals are like Saturns. :)

Hemi Cuda... Sweet!

Hehe this is so funny. Every damn year around this time you will hear the same tune.

Sure the bulbs aren't that expensive for the JVC PJ.... but what about the panel?
It is a well known fact that the panels burns out on digitals. These cannot be replaced to a reasonable cost since all of the parts in todays digital pj's are subsidized. Which means that if you need to replace the panel in your digital pj after 2 years when the warranty has expired... Well.. get ready to tear a BIG hole in your wallet.

Not sure how this particular model is when it comes to this but then again neither is anyone else since it remains to see in oh say about 5000 hours what condition the panel will be in by then. It's not a very fun thing to try and explain to people why their digital looks just as dim and tinted after replacing the bulb like it did before it was replaced...

At least with a CRT you can easily tell when it's time to replace something and you also have the option of using a slighty worn tube instead of new ones to keep the replacements costs down.
Personally I would take an BG808LC or any other 8" LC PJ over the latest news from the digital front any dayof the week and will probably do so until they realize that BULBS aren't the way to go which will probably not happen during this decade at least.

Hey, what's all the excitement about. This carnival has been coming to town every six months for the past fifteen years... and though they've changed some of the performances, it's still not a circus.
I'm really tired of this Carnival. I guess we should thank Cliff for this latest round of Chicken Little /Sky is Falling Hysteria? :rolleyes:

And Art, and Don. All G90 owners.

Oh! even the UK seller agreed that CRT was able to produce better image information than the HD1.

Its ok to say something will produce 1080p but it just appeared to have less detail.......


It was VERY bright, in fact full white was way to much for me, and it was on low setting.....

I think Ken set up the RS1 at Art's. Maybe this is why his evaluation is different from Andy's.

Walt

I'm really tired of this Carnival. I guess we should thank Cliff for this latest round of Chicken Little /Sky is Falling Hysteria? :rolleyes:

Who? Me???? :D

Cliffy

I do believe that digital flatscreens will probably come closer to CRT picture quality before any digital FP technique does. A flatscreen will also not suffer from more or less expensive bulb lamps that have to be replaced and that always will reduce contrast level. Watching movies in HD on my 20" Apple Cinemadisplay is not to bad, and that is still a couple of years old model LCD screen. Very expensive when it was introduced, todays models are probably both better and cheaper.

Screen sizes are still far from what usually is used with FP, but they are getting bigger and better. When I do upgrade my HT in a couple of years, it will probably be a new flatscreen with a size of 80"+ and it could be installed in any room independent of throw distance, ceiling height etc.

Thomas

I'm really tired of this Carnival. I guess we should thank Cliff for this latest round of Chicken Little /Sky is Falling Hysteria?
And Art, and Don. All G90 owners.
I LOVE the circus!

I don't know why I respond to these kinds of threads but maybe it's the same reason I'm a rubber-necker looking at the mangled bodies oozing from the twisted metal along the freeway.

What I find most interesting is how the discussion is primarily confined to those associated with the highest performing CRT units commercially available and the fact seems lost to this increasingly smaller group that CRT is fundamentally technology and ALL technology, by definition, is improved or subsumed into another advancing technology.

Technology progresses - always getting better, faster, cheaper. Rationally, there is no way to defend the fact that somehow digital performance will not surpass that of 9" CRTs. It is inevitable and y'all need to take a "happy pill" and just cool your jets and watch and wait.

Go back a few years and see how the technical advance of the digital technology prevents 7" or 8" CRT owners from claiming how much better their 1080p HD performance is than digitals. Technology advances have muted them as digital performance has clearly gone beyond their capabilities.

Digital technology flew past my 1271 years ago, yet I still enjoy what I have and watch and wait until the 1080p units become dirt cheap commodities like EVERY other unit that has come along.

The carping about expending costs is also directly related to the inherent nature of technology. You all know this simple fact: early adopters pay the burden of development and production costs to bring new product to market. So if you don't like having to pay a disproportionate amount of that cost, don't be an early adopter. Simple as that. If you do buy early, you gain access to new technology and associated bragging rights.

It's been a long and wonderful run for CRT technology but the final nail is ready to be hammered in. Just look around you and recognize if a digital alternative is or can be developed it is and drives the analog options into obsolescence, even if analog performance is superior in some respects.

QQQ,

You are to funny. You have been saying that the latest digital PJ to hit the streets is the one that will de-throne CRT's for years now. Over and over with every new model that came out that was an advancement in digital projectors.
Perhaps if you had waited for something that really is good to hang your hat on you would have some credibility and folks might actually believe what you write.
LOL

Terry
Terry,

I was going to saying your post was a misrepresentation but I think there's too much marketing spin in society as it is so I'll call it what it is - a lie and a fabrication. Would you care to point out where I've...
...been saying that the latest digital PJ to hit the streets is the one that will de-throne CRT's for years now. Over and over with every new model that came out that was an advancement in digital projectors.
Because I'm QUITE confident I've never done/said any such thing even once, let alone multiple times. In fact I've never said digital is "better than CRT" at all.

p.s. Obvious tongue in cheek comments where I tweak the noses of CRT nuts do not qualify.

p.s. Obvious tongue in cheek comments where I tweak the noses of CRT nuts do not qualify.That would constitute thousands of comments. We expect an apology--on bended knee. ;)

That would constitute thousands of comments. We expect an apology--on bended knee. ;)
:D

p.s. took me a sec to get the bended knee reference :D

I doubt many people saw that post before it was removed. I laughed out loud when I read it. :D

That would constitute thousands of comments. We expect an apology--on bended knee. ;)
one knee isn't good enough, he should get down on both knees and hug a 9" tube :D

one knee isn't good enough, he should get down on both knees and hug a 9" tube :D
My girlfriend does that every night for me.

(p.s. except it's a 12" tube)

I just want to clarify before my post gets deleted that I'm of course referring to the BarcoReality 812.

http://www.barco.com/corporate/en/products/product.asp?GenNr=336

My girlfriend does that every night for me.

(p.s. except it's a 12" tube)

LOL, but at the same time :rolleyes: :D

I just want to clarify before my post gets deleted that I'm of course referring to the BarcoReality 812.

http://www.barco.com/corporate/en/products/product.asp?GenNr=336

Gottcha. I posted while you were clarifying your remark. :D

Here is what happens over here in the UK..............

Guy or Gal walks into a hi fi / video shop - specialist store..........

Sees a Digital PJ , likes it, buys a cheap one, then plrices fall so buys a better one.........

NOW I would think MOST of the average digital owners have NEVER seen a CRT in a home cinema - OR have only seen them in a pub poorly installed usually.

So when many go and see these digitals LIKE I DID WITH THE RS1 (HD1) , they all see a WOW factor that they have not seen in the past..............

I went with a 9500LC Ultra owner to see it, prior to viewing I had been asked "What of it is better than you 1209s?" - Then I would consider buying one, NOT straight away, maybe 6 months later - at least when a few have been running..................NOT to keep waiting for the next one, but to at least give the price a chance to settle..............

ALL the digital owners in the room agreed it was the best picture they had ever seen..........

Now Recently I saw a Sim2 D80 - I would like to both of those side by side.

I actually saw the RS1 next to a PEARL - direct side by side evaluation, also in the same room was a Sony Qualia 004 - not in use but I have seen that running as well.

The concern I had was the YELLOW area in the full white screen - which I was told by the calibration guy was not there the day prior when it was set up..........

IF that is true then the lamp or PJ have an issue with less than 24 hours on the clock........


ALSO - the concern I would have is mounting the RS1.....

The spec sheet shows the PJ has enough lens shift (vertical) to be mounted top middle or bottom of the screen - BUT ALWAYS SHOWN in DESK MOUNT style - NOT inverted..........

I questioned if ANYONE had run it inverted - Maybe in the US this has been done............

I remember a Digital PJ for £15K UK that when inverted died every time, and ended up being installed in a cradle so it was the right way up...........Thats NOT a tidy looking route......

Anyway - the RS1 plus points are cheap, VXP inbuilt scaler, cheap lamps.

But I would not swop my 1209s for it..................

Any one who says their G90 , Cine9 ,9500 etc (Sorry I dont know NECs or Ampros) is not as good as an RS1 - Well I question who setup your CRT? or if you actually tested side by side..........

The RS1 is a good digital projector, maybe some would consider in the same league as a CRT, But NOT top of the table. And will be knocked down a league with the next release.......

p.s. Obvious tongue in cheek comments where I tweak the noses of CRT nuts do not qualify.

That's pretty funny QQQ. Seems to me that every time there is a thread that involves CRT vs digital, you are either the instigator of such thread OR trolling to get a reaction.

My apologies if what you were really doing was "tweaking the noses of CRT nuts". I thought you actually were a proponent of digitals implying they were better than CRT? Maybe not???

But I get it now, ALL of your comments in the CRT forum are obvious tongue in cheek that have no merit (we all knew that anyway) or real bearing on the subject at hand....lol

Terry

Yea the RS-1 will give a 9" CRT Projector a run for it s money.

I just went back to CRT after 3 years from a concidered to be high end DLP Projector.
I have a DWIN HD700 all tweeked and looking incredible but when Im ready for 1080p Im getting the RS-1 Theres no doubt in my mind it will make the DWIN look like crap.

I saw it at CES and if I didnt by the DWIN I would haev waitd a little longer and just got the RS-1.

I thought you actually were a proponent of digitals implying they were better than CRT?
Well of course you did. You quite naturally project your own bizarre pathology on others, assuming that one is either a "proponent" of CRT or a "proponent" of digital.
My apologies if what you were really doing was "tweaking the noses of CRT nuts".
Now you know why your nose always hurts.

As long as you don't tweak the nuts I'm happy.

LOL. I've come to really enjoy these threads. :^)

What great reading.......

Cliffy

Well of course you did. You quite naturally project your own bizarre pathology on others, assuming that one is either a "proponent" of CRT or a "proponent" of digital.

Now you know why your nose always hurts.

You are TRULY BIZARRE and have nothing as far as I can tell to contribute to this forum or any other.
You are in the same class as David Roth and fortunately AVS provides a means to "ignor" such trolls.

Terry

http://aycu03.webshots.com/image/10962/2004435776454754500_rs.jpg

I'm sorry Terry, but.....

THAT IS JUST TOO DAMN FUNNY!!!!!!!

Cliff

Yea the RS-1 will give a 9" CRT Projector a run for it s money.

I saw it at CES and if I didnt by the DWIN I would haev waitd a little longer and just got the RS-1.

You really think so? I mean I understand it being better than your 7" crt, it may give an 8" a run.. but a 9"?

I'd like to know if one can easily stack two RS1s. Right now, the only way to get to super big screens and not sacrifice quality in any PQ parameter is stacking or blending CRTs.

The possibility of stacking two little digital projectors is very tempting. I wonder if twice the black level of a single RS1 would be acceptable, though.

I'd love to see the day in which we can get a single digital projector doing >1000 lumens and >30,000 CR w/o IRIS and no SDE or RBE (btw, CRTs *do* have a subtle RBE).

Can we refrain from a picture tweaking Terrys Nuts please !!!

Haha... good one Andy

I'd like to know if one can easily stack two RS1s...
... The possibility of stacking two little digital projectors is very tempting. I wonder if twice the black level of a single RS1 would be acceptable, though.


Andres, I think a guy called rdjam in the $20K+ forum is planning on doing it with RS1's -> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=794957

I've not read the rest of this thread but I would like to comment about MAD MR H's statement on page one where he says

"if I am to believe the UK guy who set it up within 12 hours of use the lamp was showing a yellow patch on the screen"

I am the UK guy who set it up. This statement infers I told him this info. I have never told MrH such a thing and, in fact, when he brought it up in a UK thread I informed him that I saw no such thing. When I left the building after calibration and set up, around 1-2hrs before folk were due to arrive for the launch, uniformity was very good. I did not see the unit before it went back to JVC but I do not think anyone else saw this effect. Just for the record

Gordon

Oh, and BTW. Let's see, when new a G-90 stack cost $60,000 new PLUS a scaler and the insane labor involved in the installation.

A new JVC RS1 retails for 6K. Hmmm....I can sure see where that RS1 might be a bad "investment" considering all those nasty $270 bulbs that will have to be replaced every couple of years.


Bulbs in any flavor suck. I can't freaking wait until we see Novalux lasers in FP's.

I give up, I had to look. That is pretty funny.......
QQQ you obviously have way to much time on your hands.

BTW is picking other folks noses a fetish of yours??

Terry

I've not read the rest of this thread but I would like to comment about MAD MR H's statement on page one where he says

"if I am to believe the UK guy who set it up within 12 hours of use the lamp was showing a yellow patch on the screen"

I am the UK guy who set it up. This statement infers I told him this info. I have never told MrH such a thing and, in fact, when he brought it up in a UK thread I informed him that I saw no such thing. When I left the building after calibration and set up, around 1-2hrs before folk were due to arrive for the launch, uniformity was very good. I did not see the unit before it went back to JVC but I do not think anyone else saw this effect. Just for the record

Gordon

Gordon, I am NOT alone in seeing this Yellow issue.........There were others, and I did NOT point it out to them, I asked "What do you think of the full white picture" - I do NOT lead people to an answer, im open minded and respect others opinions, MANY sales based guys will "lead" the conversation..........

Im sorry if I misunderstood you, I was of the understanding that the unit had been setup the day PRIOR to the viewing. If you left it perfect with no yellow the demo was from 4pm to 7pm I was there towards the end.........

So In say 5 hours it had gone yellow, not the 20ish I originally thought............
(Maybe I was being kind to it sand the Guys who demoed it ;) )

Its a pity I did not make more of any issue of this at the time, To be honest it was a sales invite and so I did not want to stand there in front of all those digital owners and say how poor it was WRT to CRT.

NOW - I work with digitals every day so I am NOT a "Crt is the be all and end all" guy.

Gordon EVERYONE in the room also noticed how over green the Pearl was, that was NOT in comparrison to the HD1 (rs1) but within white sky shots of King Kong.

Many people commented that it looked like it had been made worse to make the HD1 (RS1) look better..........

I have no flag to carry here, I dont sell JVC products, and the work I do does in no way use these higher end digital machines.

What is a shame is that you were not there to see this issue.

I cant now remember the other things I saw as it was a fair time ago,

HERE most people in the CRT thread are not going to jump up and buy one, go into a digital area and I can see that MANY would buy it..............

Its NOT a bad machine, just not as good as a good CRT.

Gordon how many hours were on that machine when you started work on it? Dont need to be exact, 1,10,50,100...........

EVEN if 100 lamp hours then the 5 hours or more use it took that day would be 5% of its total running time................

If 50 total then 10%, if 10 total then 50% - with such a NEW low hour machine I would expect items to "settle in".........thats true of ANY electronic goods..........

People in the UK now have theirs.................

Maybe I should ask for them to post hours of use and a full white screen...........

I hope what I saw was one off, but as I would expect the 4 demo units to be the best possible then NO errors should be present...........

I know there are already "Issues" that have been mentioned by others, some sound like a firmware upgrade would sort, and every new product has issues - EVERY product, CRT, Digital PJs, cars, PCs, you name it................There are VERY FEW items that these days get released that has been tested so much that NO issues are found EVER.........

I give up, I had to look. That is pretty funny.......
QQQ you obviously have way to much time on your hands.

BTW is picking other folks noses a fetish of yours??

Terry

Now Terry, why did you ask QQQ another question................

Let him FADE AWAY like a digital lamp.

50% dimmer at half his life is maybe a little too cruel a thought.

Let him FADE AWAY like a digital lamp.
50% dimmer at half his life is maybe a little too cruel a thought.

LOL

Terry

Man leave Terry alone... Hard to believe he has all that time on his hands...

Hmm you know Digitals rumors, are allot like digital bulbs. At the start they burn really hot and fast then level out once they get to the solid thick part of the bulb as it dims :)

MadMrH: I do not know how many hours were on it. Also, I really see no relevenace to the fact you thought the Pearl looked green in comparison when I was commenting about the fact you say there was a yellow patch in the uniformity on the JVC....It is indeed a pity no-one else mentioned it except to you.

Gordon

others DID mention it..................the YELLOW HD1 that is.............

ALL of the ROOM mentioned the Pearl was green, I mention this as I wanted to hear if YOU saw that as well..........

If not then WHY is one green and one yellow hours after setup ???

Did something change in the room?

Did someone change a setting after you left?

There MUST be a reason - Im NOT questioning your ability of setup, I would like to know WHY these issues exist.

Maybe I should go look up my orginal thoughts list............see what else I noticed.

Is there any reason why I (and others) would see yellow ???

It cant be the screen, as I would see it with the pearl right ?

Now I believe you that it did not have a "yellow patch" when you set it up, you saw it then, not me.............

But you dont believe me that I saw the "yellow patch" as seen by others and you were not there...........

Forums are about opinions, being there is the only way to know these things so I cant question what you saw, yet you question what I saw and give no reason why I (and another) might have seen Yellow?

I have 20/20 vision like many people, I also have 20/20 ZERO precription vision - which means my eyes instantly refocus the entire range of the optical lens test - So im fairly sure my eye sight is OK.

(Opticians forgive me if my description is not 100% accurate of the test, thats not my field)

The reason I mention the Green Pearl is why did ALL the room see the green issue and only a couple of us see the Yellow issue.

There MUST be a reason.............

You saw the green of the pearl right?

Do you have the calibration results ???

That would be good to see, prior and after setup...of both if possible.

Just for curiosity what test equipment was used ?

Andy H (aka Mad Mr H)

Here it is, this is what I wrote about my viewing of the HD1.........

PLEASE NOTE - this was written in the "CRT" section of the UK forum, I did NOT place this within the "digital" forum area as I did not want to detract from sales following the demo, the UK demo was excellent and I thank the UK guys at PJ HiFi for putting these shows on for the public..........

This is my FULL write up......

"Well the day of CII in the digital world is really over, And for that matter most other external scalers.........

The display or projector (Digital that is) now come with internal scalers.

The JVC has an 11 point gamma manipulation system (EDIT: It has NOT got 11 point gamma correction) , the pearl has 2 point (As do CRTs gain/bias). The JVC takes all signals in and convets them to the native resolution of the PJ - Clever idea, the down side is a number of signal cables to the PJ, the up side you dont have to spend £000's on a scaler.

The JVC scaler was without question much better than the pearl on demo. the pearl with shown with "Moire" effect and "Jaggies" - the JVC did not display these issues on the same footage. I would like to point out this was from HD DVD footage and NOT a test pattern, so in normal viewing material.

I only had 40 minutes with the JVC and then I watched it leave the building.

External scalers will have to fall in price to match the actual cost of the technology they employ...........

The JVC was shown with footage from HD DVD and Pixel magic Media Box - "HD DVD" looked excellent, there was a point within the film "Seabiscuit" where the center and surround channels went off! We actually came back from the show and tested the same clip and low and behold lost audio! It would appear to be a disc error and not a machine playback error. "MEDIA BOX" - well yet again I was dissapointed with the image - rather sad but in left to right motion shots the image was blurred, If thats the playback unit in CII then I would not buy that version. PC playback would be my prefered system, and I dont think Pixel Magic have got HD playback as good as it should be from hard drive media.

So for £3800.00 including internal scaler and lamp replacement at £200 quoted in the demo would I replace my 1209s - No, the 1209s has in my opinion a better depth of image, better detail within the image, I also thought that the JVC was very bright (slightly too bright for my eyes) and appeared to lack some detail within the blacks compared to my 1209s. Where would I rate the JVC in the list of CRT comparable CRT projectors - Colour corrected good 8 inch I think, Marquee 8500LC, Barco 1208s/2 1208s/E with HD6/HD145 lens mod, Above the 1208/2 , 808LC close (non colour filtered) Are any of those £3800.00 I doubt it! but they are not new........ (Add usual CRT negative points size,weight none of which relate to picture quality).

So there you go, If you have no projector and are looking to buy a 1080p digital with in built scaler then £3800.00 is a fair price for the JVC. A good 8 inch CRT second hand and a second hand scaler will set you back less and give a comparable quality of picture - thats my opinion based on the demo I had for 40 minutes, and by the way if that pearl was setup as good as it gets then the optics are not as sharp as the JVC, scaler not as good, poor convergence and lacking colour balance control was my immediate impression - but thats the digital progression race - 6 months is long enough to turn the best yet digital into average, thats one reason why I think people will wait to see whats round the corner.............

Oh! black levels! nearly forgot - I did not really get a good chance to look at black levels on the Pearl, BUT the JVC with no picture showed the edges of the screen were still lit slightly so I would have to look into that a little deeper!"


I also posted this..........

There were a couple of things raised yesterday that I take for granted and so have really forgotten others might not realise........

People are going to view digital projectors and getting a massive "WOW" factor from seeing the best picture they have ever seen. No doubt it is very good, and as most of you know im not anti digital I work with them most days, Just I prefer the CRT image and still think its the best value for money for high quality pictures (As always its not just about that these days in our designer name world). I view the digital projectors against what I see here daily and so notice they are a lesser machine. That point became clear yesterday watching the reaction of others, It was a Digital show at PJ HiFi so I did not mention my PJ against those on show, thats rather unfair and I am glad people put these shows on and I want them to continue doing so and inviting me along. However people there had a range of older digitals, all seemed impressed with the JVC, after all if anyone had a 6 month or older digital PJ then this is the new standard..........

People noticed the definition of the picture from HD DVD direct to the PJ, with internal scale.

Now what I saw was a LACK of detail in the picture, Im not saying it was poor, far from it, but when I watch HD DVD I can see clear detail of every hair on a head, pimples on the skin, fingerprints, texture of paper, those tiny details which I dont seem to see in a digital image - I am not alone here, and talking to others it does appear the CRT produces a much more detailed image - is that because a 1080p digital is running at its max resolution and my 9 inch is about 25% below its official horizontal figure? (I cant mention vertical as in 16:9 mode I only use about 60% of the available tube face). Is there another reason, quality of lens? After all a NEW single HFQ900 lens is reported to be about £3000.00! nearly the price of the entire JVC projector, Size of lens maybe? Size of picture - the test viewing was on an 8 foot screen so is mine, I dont know but would like to hear from others.........

You dont have to share my view, maybe you think differently but that one thing does puzzle me as to why ? Or am I even dreaming the differance exists ?

and lastly....

I noticed that the pearl was green towards the top 1/3 of the screen.

The JVC I thought looked slightly yellow towards the center and white towards the outside.

The above was obvious with the pearl as a number of people mentioned during film viewing, the slight yellow of the JVC was not noticed during film play back.

Gary, When I picked my CRT projector list that I considered close to the JVC I did try and pick high end 8" units and not just general run of the mill ones, I mention this as you might not be so familiar with the CRT ranges (as I am not with digitals), One CRT member who popped round here did not know a 808LC was ever built by barco - But I have the remains of 3 of them - they do exist .

One thing I did notice which I thought JVC should consider was the settings shown for the RGB balance.

As I understand (please correct me) the JVC unit was calibrated for D65. this showed as figures like 0, -30, -40 (osh) in a menu screen - I would have thought that the firmware should be set so those, or close values were used as the ZERO values......

With such a range it does lead people to say "wow thats a big differance" - of course in reality it means nothing as long as the set has the ability to be calibrated.

Posted by Gordon in the UK Digital forum were the following..............

In answer to the question as to what I used for calibration. I only calibrated the Pearl and HD1 with the HD-DVD player output using DVE professional and my usual gretamacbeth probe and colorfacts. Having seen demo's of these tow in the past, where the greyscale and colour were obviously vastly different, I wanted to make sure that they were both as accurate as possible. Both units were optimised for colour accuracy and contrast. I was pleased with how close in colour I got them. With an off board processor we could have manipulated the gamma on the Pearl to make it more punchy and bring out some shadow detail. The JVC just didn't need that help in gamma though.

I did not write down the delta error of the pj's. I also do not have a device capable of measuring accurately at the light level of a 5ire white window reflected off a micro-perf screen anyway.

From what I remember during the work, I got it so it was probably within the spec you want all the way down to 20ire window. Below that it deviated to have too little green. Looking at a grey ramp though you would have been hard pushed to tell.


At CEDIA USA they did a demo of a Ruby against a G90. At that demo I wondered why anyone bought a G90. Each had it's strong points but I could see the beggining of the end (and I like CRT...alot) The JVC just brings the death of the behemoths closer. When I had finished at PJ I turned to Elliot and asked what he thought we could get two stacked to look like on a BIG screen...hehehehehe...

Re greyscale. The greyscale was obviously non linear and purple in dark areas. On the default setting Elliot had it at I could see this in IRE windows below 40. We got it pretty sorted though when I had finished, this with the tools available currently. If they end up giving you multi point rgb gamma adjustments to the level of the Sony then you are laughing...or crying..depending on how you look at it. If you use an Lumagen like I do it's irrelevant anyway. The link Elliot shows is actually virtually identical to what I ended up with. Unfortunately I haven't saved that run so can't post the graph.

Uniformity: Full field uniformity on the fields I looked at was very good. Mad MrH mentions he thought the edges of screen were yellow on JVC compared to middle (I believe he saw this). I did not see this during calibration or during the short clips I watched though.

Loving DVD, everything has potential issues....Bulbs will vary.....projectors will vary. By the time you've waited long enough to measure how the lamp changes over its lifespan and whether a new lamp in same assembly behaves the same way there will be another device for you to consider..that will no doubt throw up the same questions. It is, unfortunately a never ending cycle of "what if's and what might come next" I advise that you try to view the JVC and any other devices you are considering and then make a decision based on what you see rather than on our second hand reports.


I think 1080p@96 may well be within Radiance's output range.....1080P@24 will accomplish the same thing anyway and I know they are looking in to that for Vision range at the moment.


Its a shame that the settings were not saved, I save all my data even various version data as I setup various things - always helps to be able to check back........

Ruby better than a G90 - That can be your little secret Gordon ;) and round here might lead to an interesting thread :rolleyes: .


You are a UK seller, I am a UK buyer - maybe thats a reason for our differing opinions ?

I've not read the rest of this thread but I would like to comment about MAD MR H's statement on page one where he says

"if I am to believe the UK guy who set it up within 12 hours of use the lamp was showing a yellow patch on the screen"

I am the UK guy who set it up. This statement infers I told him this info. I have never told MrH such a thing and, in fact, when he brought it up in a UK thread I informed him that I saw no such thing. When I left the building after calibration and set up, around 1-2hrs before folk were due to arrive for the launch, uniformity was very good. I did not see the unit before it went back to JVC but I do not think anyone else saw this effect. Just for the record

Gordon

Actually I have just read this again.............

What I should have said was maybe worded like this.....as is appears to have come accross wrong.........

The UK guy (Gordon) set this system up and DID NOT see a yellow patch on the screen, Within 12 hours of this setup (actually turns out to be about 5 hours) I and at least one other saw a yellow area in a full white field..........

Still not sure that comes across right........

Gordon did not see a yellow patch during setup, I believe him. about 5 hours later 2 of us (maybe more) saw a yellow area in the center of the screen.
(thats better)

That area was maybe 30% of the width and 25% of the height of the picture.....

NOT just a tiny area........

These are my opinions based on what I saw, Anyone is welcome to think different............

So is the consensus here that short of a G90, digitals (or at least the RS1) has surpassed CRTs?

So is the consensus here that short of a G90, digitals (or at least the RS1) has surpassed CRTs?It still isn't even widely available and few people have seen it. Fewer still have seen it compared to a nice CRT setup. And no one has assessed it with more than a few hundred hours on the bulb. A neighbor of mine just replaced his 3rd bulb in 2 years... 1200 hours. But replacing a $400 bulb every year after 1000 hours is arguably no worse than wearing out a set of tubes.

But for a $5000-$6000 projector, the JVC certainly seems watchable. After being disappointed by the Qualia, Ruby, and Pearl, I look forward to seeing the RS1.

Even after you align the panel, convergence may still be slightly off in some corners, but at least the option for a single-zone convergence adjustability is much better than the Pearl (zero per-color convergence).

Certainly easier to setup. Hopefully brighter and sharper. More amenable to rooms without total light control. Fewer workarounds required for HDMI/HDCP sources. Easier to mount. And one would hope that a new piece of electronics should work for at least a couple of years out of the box.

It's another step in the right direction. A lot of us may be interested when the next level of digital performance costs even less.

But IMHO, the "consensus" is that CRT still has it's PQ advantages... the RS1 doesn't "surpass" it. But I'll admit that other advantages are getting more balanced. Digitals have improved upon their weaknesses in the past 5 years. The CRT reference has simply remained steady.

I still think the sweet spot is $1000-$2000 8" CRTs...
The full gamut of HD resolutions and multisync refresh rates.
Several component/DVI/HDMI/HDCP input options have extended the life of our projectors for a few more years.
It will still be a while before a $1000-$2000 digital can "surpass" that sweetspot.

It's still going to be a while before most enthusiasts can concede that the total PQ from digital is better than a properly setup CRT. This subforum is proudly biased, but it's still fair to say that you can still get a better picture with CRT (even a 8" 8500, XG, 1208, G70) for less than the cost of a RS1.

The RS1 isn't ready to replace my CRT, but I look forward to seeing what's available from it's successors after another 5000 hours or so.

It's still going to be a while before most enthusiasts can concede that the total PQ from digital is better than a properly setup CRT.
I don't know about "better" but I think this quote from the man who has the best CRT setup on the planet speaks for itself.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9968516#post9968516
To be fair my stack has better reds as well as we could get them,I thought green reproduction was comparable. In dark low APL my stack is better evidenced by the underwater scene in the HDDVD of Sky Captain ,for example. In sharpness, ANSI scenes (Sin City), bright material (I Robot, King Kong) and wow factor, it hammered my stack.
p.s. Art is referring to the Sim HT5000, NOT the JVC RS1.

I don't know about "better" but I think this quote from the man who has the best CRT setup on the planet speaks for itself.

p.s. Art is referring to the Sim HT5000, NOT the JVC RS1.Even if the $50,000.00 Sim HT5000 isn't quite "better" than CRT, it does sound like there are a few scenes that it does OK with

Clarence,

You are dealing with the master agitator here. I am not as easy to rile as the guys here. I DO admire you for your effort though :) :D.

BTW, I believe Art paid about the same for his stack when he bought it. Brand new with his Faroudja (which is unnecessary with the Sim) his setup would have cost 85K. Without digital you guys would never have been be able to buy a G-90 for their going rate, and the good news is that with the new digitals coming out they are going to drop even more. You may be able to buy one in a year or so for $500.

I'd like to know if one can easily stack two RS1s. Right now, the only way to get to super big screens and not sacrifice quality in any PQ parameter is stacking or blending CRTs.

The possibility of stacking two little digital projectors is very tempting. I wonder if twice the black level of a single RS1 would be acceptable, though.


The RS-1 is pretty much like having the brightness of at least two G90's (or more) already isn't it? Isn't a G90 around 300ANSI lumens?

Anyway, stacking seems like a big waste of money (in lamps and the cost of two projectors) since you can just use a high power or a curved screen. A curved screen could give the the equivilent of 3 or more RS-1s. I know my Silver PVC Torus could (but probably closer to 5)

Regarding having twice the black level, I don't see why that would be a problem if you're going much bigger. The bigger you go the dimmer the blacks get anyway, so in the end the look wouldn't be twice as high (depending on how much bigger you decided to go).

You are dealing with the master agitatorToo much "master agitating" will make you go blind. :p

Maybe that explains why you can't see how much d!%!#@| still sucks. ;)

I don't know about "better" but I think this quote from the man who has the best CRT setup on the planet speaks for itself.

I think that's debatable now. Blending is another option, lends itself to 2.40:1 CIH setups and I believe to be sharper than a stack.

I don't know about "better" but I think this quote from the man who has the best CRT setup on the planet speaks for itself.......

Hehehe

Wrong answer. The World's Finest CRT setup is my DVX BlendZilla with dual nine inch CRTs on screens of nine to thirteen feet width, how did you figure otherwise? Maybe Gino or John Gannon would convince you here.

Gannon from Cliffy's Chicago gig in December.....:

"That is one reason I am so-o excited about this 'zilla monster that Tim has been playing with...you get the best of all worlds. The projectors are loafing along easily, yet the screen size...the acreage that can be properly served by these beasts slaved together...is nearly absurd."

Any questions? :-)

Too much "master agitating" will make you go blind. :p

Maybe that explains why you can't see how much d!%!#@| still sucks. ;)

hehehe, He said "master agitating". :D

You can have your newfangled digital flashlight if you want to. I'm not impressed and certainly won't be after it's five years old and ready for a church rummage sale, while my 9500LC is sitll going strong and has less than 2000 hours on its tubes at that time. :)

Digitals = brief lifespans = throw-away, disposable technology. Not interested, thanks.

I like things that have LASTING value and functionality.



CJ

everything in this world is disposable. I'm just glad CRTs don't sell by the pound.

I admit to being gone for awhile but isn't the blendzilla thing pretty expensive? I'm still in the CRT camp but from what I remember the blendzilla hardware itself cost the same as 3 RS1's and you still needed to buy the 9" CRT projectors. Has something changed?

You can have your newfangled digital flashlight if you want to. I'm not impressed and certainly won't be after it's five years old and ready for a church rummage sale, while my 9500LC is sitll going strong and has less than 2000 hours on its tubes at that time. :)

Digitals = brief lifespans = throw-away, disposable technology. Not interested, thanks.

I like things that have LASTING value and functionality.
Do you prefer scrolls too?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=aX0-nqRmtos

Well, something has changed for me, anyway.

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l234/cmjohnson65/P19LUG%20CRTs/DSCN4524.jpg

I'll be keeping my eyes peeled for 9500LCs going cheap due to roasted tubes.

:D

I'm expecting to get about 150 SETS of these tubes in the next few weeks or months. Some will be very minty, like these.

I see absolutely NO reason whatsoever to spend a lot of money to get a picture that is NOT better than the picture I'm already getting. That would be foolish.



CJ

Well, something has changed for me, anyway.

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l234/cmjohnson65/P19LUG%20CRTs/DSCN4524.jpg

I'll be keeping my eyes peeled for 9500LCs going cheap due to roasted tubes.

:D

I'm expecting to get about 150 SETS of these tubes in the next few weeks or months. Some will be very minty, like these.

I see absolutely NO reason whatsoever to spend a lot of money to get a picture that is NOT better than the picture I'm already getting. That would be foolish.



CJ

EDIT. Sorry dude. Too much wine last night.........

Cliff

So to summise Cliff... what are you saying of your G90 stack vs digital?

I'm expecting to get about 150 SETS of these tubes in the next few weeks or months. Some will be very minty, like these.


CJ - Keep an eye out for 2 pairs of minty LUG's will you. Preferably ones that can be used/modified for use in my Ultra's :)

The reality is all about money. Why on earth would I spend a few grand to get picture quality that's NOT better than what I have now?

I'm not speaking for anyone but myself, but as far as I'm concerned, if you have a best-of-breed 9" CRT projector with nice tubes, and you switch to a digital PJ, you're doing nothing but wasting money and I won't do that.

I do not suffer from any compulsion to buy the latest of anything. Particularly when it represents no increase in performance and is almost certainly going to have a shorter operating lifespan than what I have now.

YOU may think that buying a new digital for (let's be kind here) three grand once every three years makes sense, but I sure don't. I BARELY have 1 grand sunk into my 9500LC and that's INCLUDING what I paid for the new tubes that are in it, and over its lifespan, you'll replace your digitals at least six times to the tune of 18,000 dollars (maybe) and I'll give up NOTHING in picture quality.


I'm not the sort to jump on the digital bandwagon because I don't view it as an optimal solution in terms of cost OR performance, and most especially, it's not BOTH.

At the rate I use my PJ, which is strictly for movies and not general viewing, there's no way
that there will be any noticeable degradation of the CRTs for at least FIVE MORE YEARS. You'll be lucky if a new digital PJ will even WORK in five years, not even considering how WELL it may still be running at the time. Expect bleached dichroic filters, blue in particular, yellowing of optical adhesives, drift of optical core elements due to the adhesives creeping under heat stress, and a nice thick cake of near-molecular sized dust on all the optical components that aren't hermetically sealed.

For me there is no choice. Digital offers NOTHING for me that I would call an advantage.


CJ

Why must we keep rehashing the old "digitals are not reliable" propaganda?

I see tons of old digitals out there still working. Heck, the digital I started out with before I went CRT years ago is still going strong in the boardroom here at work. It gets turned on and off many times a day. Still works like new.

It seems like some of us are clinging to the weakest of threads to stay on the CRT bandwagon...

So to summise Cliff... what are you saying of your G90 stack vs digital?

Keep your eye out for that comparison Don and I are going to do with the RS1 big dog. :)

Cliffy

Make sure to try some shots with the same camera settings.. same exposure, white balance, aperture, shutter speed, iso speed etc.. I know that photos don't reveal the whole truth but it will at least give something better to compare for us

Cliff,

Will your comparison be with a single G90 or both? I've been away for awhile...are you planning on a stack or blend?

I see tons of old digitals out there still working. Heck, the digital I started out with before I went CRT years ago is still going strong in the boardroom here at work. It gets turned on and off many times a day. Still works like new.

It seems like some of us are clinging to the weakest of threads to stay on the CRT bandwagon...


Or maybe some of us are just too cynical and realistic to jump on the newfangled bandwagon as well.

A 5 year old digital that has been used a lot may still WORK, but believe me, the problems I detailed ARE very likely to be present. Lamp-based projectors all run very hot in the core of their optical engines and there's no way around that fact, and that causes heat-related degradation that is simply unavoidable, plus the lamps are rich in UV output which causes its own set of problems. Filters bleach out, adhesives yellow, drift, or get brittle, or some combination of the three, dirt and dust electrostatically coats everything that's not hermetically sealed and then gets baked on, and let's not forget panel alignment issues and of course, our favorite stuck or dead pixels.

I'm not drinking that kool-aid. No way. Have all you want, though.


CJ

I'll go out on a very thin branch here and will say that I'll bet the chassis expectancy of a 10 year old digital is longer than one built in the last 5 years. Only using the data from the repairs I've been asked to do, along with the 6 digital sets I've sold in the last 5 years, the average lifespan of a chassis is under 4000 hours or about 2 bulbs. With the lack of profit that the manufacturers are making on current electronic product, NOTHING is built to last in the consumer and semi pro world any more. NOTHING.

The RS-1 is pretty much like having the brightness of at least two G90's (or more) already isn't it? Isn't a G90 around 300ANSI lumens?

Anyway, stacking seems like a big waste of money (in lamps and the cost of two projectors) since you can just use a high power or a curved screen. A curved screen could give the the equivilent of 3 or more RS-1s. I know my Silver PVC Torus could (but probably closer to 5)

Regarding having twice the black level, I don't see why that would be a problem if you're going much bigger. The bigger you go the dimmer the blacks get anyway, so in the end the look wouldn't be twice as high (depending on how much bigger you decided to go).

No AT highpower or toroidal screens so for my install it wasn't even an option.

Art

I'll the average lifespan of a chassis is under 4000 hours or about 2 bulbs.

You're saying two bulbs actually give 4000 hrs on average? Doubt it.
It was Ken Whitcomb saying if they don't burn early they need to be replaced at 1000 hrs due to red deficiency.

Cliff,

Will your comparison be with a single G90 or both? I've been away for awhile...are you planning on a stack or blend?

I'm stacking but plan to compare with one off, and two on. I'm also hoping Ken will be here for the event to take measurements. My screen is 10ft wide SMX.

Cliff

You're saying two bulbs actually give 4000 hrs on average? Doubt it.
It was Ken Whitcomb saying if they don't burn early they need to be replaced at 1000 hrs due to red deficiency.

I guess it comes down to personal use. 1000 hrs is about 5 years of use for me. Lets say I start watching sports in my theatre, then maybe 2 - 3 years. For me, a new bulb every 2 years is a very reasonable cost of ownership.

You're saying two bulbs actually give 4000 hrs on average? Doubt it.
It was Ken Whitcomb saying if they don't burn early they need to be replaced at 1000 hrs due to red deficiency.

I get a zillion emails from people saying their bulb lasted 200 hours, do I sell new ones (NO!), but I also get the odd person that resets the hour counter and gets well over 2000 hours on a bulb. That of course risks bulb implosion, but hey, it ain't my projector..:)

No question that the light output changes over time, but so does a CRT as it ages. I wouldn't get an ISF calibration on a digital or a CRT every 200 hours due to slight variations in light output..:)

See this comparison of a 1209 to the RS1

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=817472

I guess it comes down to personal use. 1000 hrs is about 5 years of use for me. Lets say I start watching sports in my theatre, then maybe 2 - 3 years. For me, a new bulb every 2 years is a very reasonable cost of ownership.1K in 5 years? You're a home theater buff "poser"! ;)

In all seriousness, I read people all the time literally bragging about how few hours they put on their PJ. My first thought is you guys need a new hobby! Doesn't sound like you're getting much out of this. :confused:

1K in 5 years? You're a home theater buff "poser"! ;)

In all seriousness, I read people all the time literally bragging about how few hours they put on their PJ. My first thought is you guys need a new hobby! Doesn't sound like you're getting much out of this. :confused:

There are only so many movies worth watching. Just too many 'Armageddons' out there. Ha, I'm not bragging., just illustraiting that some of us don't live in our threatres.

Mostly, I just don't have the time to watch more than one or two a week.

But what I lose in quantity I make up in quality!

There are only so many movies worth watching. Just too many 'Armageddons' out there. Ha, I'm not bragging., just illustraiting that some of us don't live in our threatres.

Mostly, I just don't have the time to watch more than one or two a week.

But what I lose in quantity I make up in quality!

This sounds like me. I do have time to watch more but I usually watch one to three movies on a weekend. What a tremendous escape it is though ! :)


Art

In the last five years, I bet you have literally spent a LOT more time on this forum than watching your PJ. And I mean literally. That's why you don't have enough time to watch more movies. ;)

I agree there are too many Armageddon type films. But you might want to broaden your options beyond Hollywood blockbusters, which are intentionally dumbed-down to appeal to the largest possible audience. If you include independent and foreign films, documentaries and TV on DVD (such as HBO and Showtime releases), there's lots of good stuff to watch.

And just what the hell is wrong with Armageddon?
;)

In the last five years, I bet you have literally spent a LOT more time on this forum than watching your PJ. And I mean literally. That's why you don't have enough time to watch more movies. ;)



True and the reason I said how many movies I watch not the reason I watch that many. Kinda like sex ,we spend a lot more time thinking and talking about it than we do doing it. :D



Art

Kinda like sex ,we spend a lot more time thinking and talking about it than we do doing it. :D
Art

Well maybe you do....

Walk softly and carry a big tube... :D

I have far too many things to do in my life than to watch a mediocre movie a day. I'm happy to settle for one movie a week. And if it's a good one, it's a special treat where everything is fully appreciated.


CJ

I agree there are too many Armageddon type films. But you might want to broaden your options beyond Hollywood blockbusters, which are intentionally dumbed-down to appeal to the largest possible audience. If you include independent and foreign films, documentaries and TV on DVD (such as HBO and Showtime releases), there's lots of good stuff to watch.

Actually I hardly watch any blockbusters...

My favourite movie is 2001 A Space Oddessy, so you can see that the prototypical hollywood hit ain't my style...

I have far too many things to do in my life than to watch a mediocre movie a day. I'm happy to settle for one movie a week. And if it's a good one, it's a special treat where everything is fully appreciated.


CJThere are plenty of good movies to watch. For your viewing habits, all you really need is one of those portable DVD players. Having a projector of any kind is overkill. ;)

I understand there's no reason to watch a movie if you don't want to. But one would think that this crowd, a group that spends a lot of time and money to make the home theater experience all that it can be, would put more than 3 or 4 hours use a week on their HTs. I guess I watch 3 to 6 movies a week, and a little HDTV.

True and the reason I said how many movies I watch not the reason I watch that many. Kinda like sex ,we spend a lot more time thinking and talking about it than we do doing it. :D



ArtThat's a good (funny but true) analogy! :D

Well maybe you do....

Walk softly and carry a big tube... :DCurt when I think of you and sex, I envision a dog that non-stop jumps from person to person humping on their legs. One person pushes you off their leg, and you jump directly on someone else's leg:D

I'm just disturbed that you think of me and sex in the same thought at all..;)

Gosh, you're right. :( Curt, sex and little feet...I am so ashamed! :D

Phil, just because I don't watch three movies a day doesn't mean my choice of an MP modded (gen II), freshly retubed Marquee 9500LC is overkill.

I have a very well-equipped radio/electronics test lab. It's a more complete lab than the tech bench I work at in my day job in a two-way radio shop. I have excellent equipment because I CHOOSE to have excellent equipment even if I don't use it many hours a day.

If you want it, that's all the justification you need. My HT is for me to get the most enjoyment out of movies when I choose to watch them. To say that I could get by with less just because I don't waste hours a day watching movies is simply insulting and totally out of line.

Someone who isn't a professional racing driver has no need for a car that will do more than 75 MPH.

That sounds pretty ludicrous, doesn't it?

Same thing.


CJ

...I don't waste hours a day watching movies...That's an odd thing to say on this forum CJ. Why do you consider watching movies a waste of time? :confused:

Who said that? I just can't afford the TIME to watch movies every day! I have too many things to do and I'm NOT about ready to retire...not even close! Between my other hobbies and a driving need to provide a decent income for myself and a possible future family, and FIND someone with which to start that family, I've got plenty enough to do to put me in bed, worn out and ready for sleep, around midnight every night if not later already.

So I'm happy to set aside one movie night a week and when I do watch one, it's a treat. Works for me.


CJ

Who said that?Uh...you did.

I'm really just kidding with you. Everyone has their own viewing preferences. There's no right or wrong way.

I usually try and watch about 4 movies a week, Usually one midweek sometimes 2 - Usually a funny style movie.

Friday night I watch one or two, Saturday maybe one, Sunday sometimes one late afternoon.

For the last 2 weeks I have really missed my HT - things are changing........So ive not seen a movie for 2 weeks............

Are we WAY off topic now ???

I'll be lucky to catch 2 movies a week. :(

I might watch one a month. Funny thing though, it usually takes me 4 nights to watch it as I fall asleep within 40 minutes of turning one on. Can't remember the last time I watched one in it's entirety, including when I go out to the movies...

TV does that to me. I can't watch TV without falling asleep. Not the case with movies for some reason.

Art. A very sinple question. And one from a lawyer, that is I know the answer before I ask the question. How much time do you spend thinking about HT vs thinking about sex? A ratio of something under 10,000 to one will do fine. This ratio will be inverse log to one's age or wear on their tube.

That's an unfair question Mark as thinking about sex can clearly be affected by the content viewed in the HT..;)

Art. A very sinple question. And one from a lawyer, that is I know the answer before I ask the question. How much time do you spend thinking about HT vs thinking about sex? A ratio of something under 10,000 to one will do fine. This ratio will be inverse log to one's age or wear on their tube.

Great question , but I have to think about it. :D

Art