It does look like Twin View is still in the XBR5. Wonder if they have HD on both sides or if it's still HD left / SD right. The biggest bug with that is when a favorite channel is HD, then you get "no image displayed" in the favorites feature for that HD channel. That's my single biggest nit. Being able to compare Blu-ray versus HDDVD (if not high def versus standard def) would be the ultimate best feature having both could enable. :D

Looks: I think the A3000 is even better looking that the A2020, cleaner, less "stuff" staring at you on the front. Just the SONY logo...

"1080i" I swear, that must be a typo. I mean, from the specs:
Native Resolution
- 1080p
Display Resolution
- 1920 x 1080
..nothing about an interlaced mode.In the specs for this set, it says it features Cinemotion Reverse 3:2 pulldown. I don't know if this addresses your issues.Well, my 2003-ish Sony RPTV has "CineMotion", but it's only for 480i sources, and is greyed/unavailable for 480p or anything higher.

Well, will this new breed have cablecards, STB even with HDMI is still not as good as straight cablecard hookup.

Do the current A2020's upscale to 1080p? I'm kind of surprised that the A3000's only upscale to 1080i.
I have a PS3 which is already 1080p, but my DirecTV HR20 would only be 1080i. I was hoping to have this upscaled.

Maybe it won't matter because my goal is to feed it through a 1080p upconverting receiver...but still.

Is this scalar a step back?


all signals will be de-interlaced and scaled to 1080p. this is the only way a signal with 480 "pixels" of resolution can be displayed on a display with 1080 "pixels" of resolution - an additional 600 "pixels" need to be created somehow!

Greg

all signals will be de-interlaced and scaled to 1080p. this is the only way a signal with 480 "pixels" of resolution can be displayed on a display with 1080 "pixels" of resolution - an additional 600 "pixels" need to be created somehow!

Greg

Thanks. So buying a Toshiba HD-A20 would be overkill?
The less expensive HD-A2 will still ultimately result in 1080p?

Thanks. So buying a Toshiba HD-A20 would be overkill?
The less expensive HD-A2 will still ultimately result in 1080p?

I'm not sure of the difference between the two toshibas, but the video displayed will be 1080p as that is what the tv displays. the tv will scale the signal (480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i) it receives to 1080p so it can properly display it. the difference will be in how the 1080p display is achieved. if the disk contains a 1080 format, there will be alot more detail than a disk with a 480 format. the scaling cannot create additional detail, it takes the detail and spreads it over more pixels.

Thanks. So buying a Toshiba HD-A20 would be overkill?
The less expensive HD-A2 will still ultimately result in 1080p?It's not the same. The A20 delivers 1080P directly to the TV whereas the A2 would deliver 1080i. Although the TV converts everything to 1080P, the deinterlacing process isn't perfect. It is nearly always better to start with the best resolution.

My wife definitely won't give up her custom made entertainment center (lighted curio cabinets, etc.) and allow me to upgrade the XBR1 to the XBR5, if it requires the Sony Stand.

Pictures make it look as if the XBR5 won't sit on a flat surface. Does anyone have info regarding this issue?

My wife definitely won't give up her custom made entertainment center (lighted curio cabinets, etc.) and allow me to upgrade the XBR1 to the XBR5, if it requires the Sony Stand.

Pictures make it look as if the XBR5 won't sit on a flat surface. Does anyone have info regarding this issue?

Sony's new product information pages for the 70" XBR5 (http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665156111) and for the 60" XBR5 (http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665156110) show a photo of the XBR5 with its standard non-pedestal "table top" stand.

HTH

I'm just jumping into this thread without reading all the posts, but I have one simple question. Will the new 50A3000 do 1080p/24fps? I figure it must do it if it's a 120 hz frame rate capable HDTV, but none of the websites just come out and say it. There must be different settings with multiples of 24 on up to 120, correct? Looks like my mother is getting my 50A2000 donated to her because I have to have 1080p/24!!

I'm just jumping into this thread without reading all the posts, but I have one simple question. Will the new 50A3000 do 1080p/24fps? I figure it must do it if it's a 120 hz frame rate capable HDTV, but none of the websites just come out and say it. There must be different settings with multiples of 24 on up to 120, correct? Looks like my mother is getting my 50A2000 donated to her because I have to have 1080p/24!!


From the Sony press release on the new 2007 SXRD's (that can be found here (http://news.sel.sony.com/en/press_room/consumer/television/microdisplay/sxrd_grand_wega/release/30504.html)):

" When high-definition signals are available, however, all of the models feature 1080p input capability via HDMI, component, and PC inputs (with supporting PC graphics cards) for an outstanding picture. Additionally, the HD component and HDMI inputs are compatible with both 1080/60p and 1080/24p sources."


The press release included the A3000 line.

Thanks for the link. I knew they had to be capable of 1080p/24. I just wanted to make sure because at one time I was told my 50A2000 could do it also, but obviously that's not true. Thanks

Well, will this new breed have cablecards, STB even with HDMI is still not as good as straight cablecard hookup.
No cablecard references anywhere in the press releases or the spec sheets on the sonystyle site. Odd omision, given the high-end nature of these sets, yet not surprising given the astonishing lack of interest in this technology (to date: only 250K cable cards have been deployed in the US as of 2Q-07). Even more odd: cablecards eliminate the STB and associated rental fees and provide the best, unadulterated picture.

I'm running two CableCards in my HD TiVo, so this won't be an issue for me. But it may be for some. (You could always add the HD TiVo for the best picture quality from a cable source, but it's a totally different animal from a cablecard enabled, built-in tuner in the set.)

From the Sony press release on the new 2007 SXRD's (that can be found here (http://news.sel.sony.com/en/press_room/consumer/television/microdisplay/sxrd_grand_wega/release/30504.html)):" When high-definition signals are available, however, all of the models feature 1080p input capability via HDMI, component, and PC inputs (with supporting PC graphics cards) for an outstanding picture. Additionally, the HD component and HDMI inputs are compatible with both 1080/60p and 1080/24p sources." The press release included the A3000 line.It's interesting that on SonyStyle, the Features section for the XBR5 SXRD includes a whole paragraph devoted to "24p True Cinema" whereas the same section for the A3000 SXRD does not. 60" XBR5 Features here (http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665156110):

"24p True Cinema
Movies are filmed at 24 frames per second (fps) and many prime time TV programs are video taped at 24p. Sony's BDP-S1 Blu-ray® player wisely takes advantage of this by including 24p output capability on selected BRAVIA models. The benefit? You can watch movies in natural, cinematic motion, the way they are seen at the cinema. Every single frame of the movie can now be seen without using additional video processing to convert film-based images to video reproduction. Additionally, 24p True Cinema can be used along with Motionflow 120Hz technology for outstanding fluid motion beyond what you would typically see at the cinema[bold italics mine]. Once you experience 24p video it will be hard to view video without it."

I don't really imagine this is significant (that the reference to the same feature is lacking in the A3000 section) in that these Feature/Specification releases can be notoriously inaccurate and incomplete, especially before the actual retail debut of the units. However, the 24p capabilities of the A3000 would be a decisive factor for me, as I have the Sony Playstation 3 which I use for Blu-ray playback that now can be output at 24p, identical to the media.

As far I can determine from this preliminary info, the major difference between the XBR5 and the A3000 is in video processing; DRC-MFv2.5 vs. DRC-MFv1.

-- da Choge in Dallas

No cablecard references anywhere in the press releases or the spec sheets on the sonystyle site. Odd omision, given the high-end nature of these sets, yet not surprising given the astonishing lack of interest in this technology (to date: only 250K cable cards have been deployed in the US as of 2Q-07). Even more odd: cablecards eliminate the STB and associated rental fees and provide the best, unadulterated picture.

I'm running two CableCards in my HD TiVo, so this won't be an issue for me. But it may be for some. (You could always add the HD TiVo for the best picture quality from a cable source, but it's a totally different animal from a cablecard enabled, built-in tuner in the set.)

to carry on the cablecard thoughts here are some snipits from a site if found .

A generation ago, federal regulators opened the way for consumers to buy telephones rather than rent them from the phone company. Now, the government has its sights on the television set-top boxes that consumers rent from cable or satellite companies.

Beginning July 1, the Federal Communications Commission has ordered cable companies to supply only set-top boxes that can accept a so-called cablecard that slides into the set-top box and determines a customer's level of access to cable service. The change is meant to give consumers nationwide the option of buying their own set-top boxes -- or TVs that can use the cablecard -- rather than renting one.
Some new television sets and DVRs already come equipped with cablecard technology built in. Electronics makers and consumer groups, however, complain that cable companies have been reluctant to hand out the cards. Consumers already have bought eight million digital TV sets and high-end DVRs ready to accept cablecards, but only 250,000 households have been able to obtain the cards from their cable companies, according to Jenny Pareti of the Consumer Electronics Association, an industry lobbying group.

Cable companies for years have fiercely opposed cablecards, arguing that they add complexity and costs but no benefits, while a better technology is just on the horizon. FCC's requirement didn't put an to the grumbling, but it left the cable industry with no choice but to comply with the rule.

The cable industry's "time, money and resources would have been better spent on something like downloadable security that would allow a real competitive marketplace to develop," says Kyle McSlarrow, chief executive of the cable-industry association, referring to next-generation technology to let cable companies set up a subscriber's channels remotely. Mr. McSlarrow complains that cablecards, unlike downloadable technology, aren't interactive so consumers won't be able to use interactive program guides or order movies and other programming using the remote control.

The FCC's Mr. Martin says that after cable operators wouldn't commit to a deadline for introducing the interactive technology, the FCC ran out of patience and set July 1 as a firm date for using cablecards -- as Congress had required more than a decade ago.

...anybody find out if this think will accept 1920x1080 via RGB? I know some of the other sets are crippled for PC-input resolution...

This July? That is amazing. That only applies to tuners or DVRs also? And I thought they were changing CableCard to add interactive features.

...anybody find out if this think will accept 1920x1080 via RGB? I know some of the other sets are crippled for PC-input resolution...

in can accept 1080p over component, hdmi, and pc input :)

in can accept 1080p over component, hdmi, and pc input :)

Cool, so, set res in OS system properties for 1920x1080, and you're good to go? Got a source for this info?

It's interesting that on SonyStyle, the Features section for the XBR5 SXRD includes a whole paragraph devoted to "24p True Cinema" whereas the same section for the A3000 SXRD does not. 60" XBR5 Features here (http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665156110):

"24p True Cinema
Movies are filmed at 24 frames per second (fps) and many prime time TV programs are video taped at 24p. Sony's BDP-S1 Blu-ray® player wisely takes advantage of this by including 24p output capability on selected BRAVIA models. The benefit? You can watch movies in natural, cinematic motion, the way they are seen at the cinema. Every single frame of the movie can now be seen without using additional video processing to convert film-based images to video reproduction. Additionally, 24p True Cinema can be used along with Motionflow 120Hz technology for outstanding fluid motion beyond what you would typically see at the cinema[bold italics mine]. Once you experience 24p video it will be hard to view video without it."

I don't really imagine this is significant (that the reference to the same feature is lacking in the A3000 section) in that these Feature/Specification releases can be notoriously inaccurate and incomplete, especially before the actual retail debut of the units. However, the 24p capabilities of the A3000 would be a decisive factor for me, as I have the Sony Playstation 3 which I use for Blu-ray playback that now can be output at 24p, identical to the media.

As far I can determine from this preliminary info, the major difference between the XBR5 and the A3000 is in video processing; DRC-MFv2.5 vs. DRC-MFv1.

-- da Choge in Dallas

... and that the XBR5s weigh more than 50% more than the A3000s.

... and that the XBR5s weigh more than 50% more than the A3000s.

And judging from the pictures over at Sony Style, the 60" XBR will also not be as tall as the 60" A3000. Which as trivial as it may seem, is a huge selling point for me. I'd like to keep the center of the screen somewhat at eye level, and I also want to use my existing stand. I will be sitting roughly 8'-9' from a 60" screen and I need the TV to be as short as possible. (This isn't crazy, right?)

Since I haven't considered a SXRD purchase until recently, I assume that Sony's sets are also impacted by the vertical viewing angle as are rear projection DLP's? How much of an angle will start to impact the SXRD's?

This July? That is amazing. That only applies to tuners or DVRs also? And I thought they were changing CableCard to add interactive features.

dvr's too. for more see these links:

http://www.jsitel.com/hot_topics/SetTopBoxe-Lert.htm

http://www.ipodobserver.com/story/31624

http://www.ncta.com/IssueBrief.aspx?contentId=3553&view=3

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070111-8599.html

Cool, so, set res in OS system properties for 1920x1080, and you're good to go? Got a source for this info?

Er...I think you may still have to deal with overscanning, so it probably won't be as simple as this.

Since I haven't considered a SXRD purchase until recently, I assume that Sony's sets are also impacted by the vertical viewing angle as are rear projection DLP's? How much of an angle will start to impact the SXRD's?I don't know what DLP sets you've been checking out; and I don't have an exact figure for you for the SXRD's vertical viewing angle, however all rear-projection sets, regardless of technology, are affected with vertical viewing angle problems to some degree AFAIK.

I've been following the threads for the 2007's Samsung DLPs fairly closely. I've also had the chance to compare vertical viewing angles between the Sony A2020s/XBR2s and the 2007 Samsung HL-T LEDs several times in the B&M stores. There is a noticeable difference between the two brands in that the Sammys have a much more restricted vertical viewing angle (than the 2006/early 2007 SXRDs, anyway). If you're seated within a certain critical viewing distance (which I would think an 8-9' distance from a 60" might fall in), then this might be significant to you. I don't think it would be that big of a deal for me, but it is very apparent in a side-by-side comparison. It seems that the 2007 Samsung LED DLPs have a more of a problem with this than other brand DLP RPTVs. I don't think it would be enough to make me avoid the Sammys (which I really like; I would get no other brand DLP RPTV), but some of the other problems reported in the Samsung threads (screen smudges, flimsy case design, etc) have made me consider these new 2007 SXRDs more seriously.

-- da Choge in Dallas

I've been following the threads for the 2007's Samsung DLPs fairly closely.I've followed the Samsung DLP models since 2002, and what you say about the 2007 LED models is very true. The lamp based models prior to 2007 have vertical viewing angles very much like the current Sony SXRD models.

I'm not sure about the lamp based 2007 modes because of their thin cases. I think it's a good idea to check any 2007 thin cased set very carefully at your expected viewing distance. In particular, look at images where the screen should have constant brightness from top to bottom. In my opinion the 2007 LED HL-T sets start showing image tops and bottoms that are darker than the center of the image too quickly.

I'm interested in the 60" A3000, and the 60" XBR5 this Fall. I don't plan to take their vertical viewing angles for granted. :cool:

As far I can determine from this preliminary info, the major difference between the XBR5 and the A3000 is in video processing; DRC-MFv2.5 vs. DRC-MFv1.Yes but the DRC is for upconverting standard-def signals only. 1080/24p is already High-Def., it bypasses the DRC circuit.

... and that the XBR5s weigh more than 50% more than the A3000s.

Anyone know why yet?

Anyone know why yet?

If the tvs are basically the same, then it can only be dark matter.

Anyone know why yet?

I am gonna take a stab at a possibility, but I will say up front that this conjecture could be very, very wrong...but, I thought the XBR5 was maybe going with a more "glass" front plate (or whatever the face is called) and the 3000 was going with the same material as the 2020, which is a plastic material. That would easily explain the difference, as glass is reeeeal heavy (reference the Qualia...which used a nice glass face and thus avoided as much SSE as some other RP show). That's my conjecture. Anyone else? :confused: :confused:

That's my conjecture. Anyone else? :confused: :confused:

Since the dimensions are completely wrong, maybe the listed weight is too. If glass is the deciding factor, at least it will make an over priced projection television feel more substantial and more worth the cost.

I am gonna take a stab at a possibility, but I will say up front that this conjecture could be very, very wrong...but, I thought the XBR5 was maybe going with a more "glass" front plate (or whatever the face is called) and the 3000 was going with the same material as the 2020, which is a plastic material. That would easily explain the difference, as glass is reeeeal heavy (reference the Qualia...which used a nice glass face and thus avoided as much SSE as some other RP show). That's my conjecture. Anyone else? :confused: :confused:

A glass plate would add over 120 pounds to the 60-inch XBR5?

Maybe the added weight is due to the fact that the TV was prone to tipping over because it is so thin. They had to add additional weight to the back of the TV to offset this problem. There is probably more of a steel skeleton in this unit to allow it to either sit on its own stand or the A/V stand or hang on the wall. If you look at the pictures it looks like it is just sitting on a small sliver of a post, when actually the post goes into the TV and runs all the way up the back of the TV to the top to give it greater strength.

Maybe the added weight is due to the fact that the TV was prone to tipping over because it is so thin. They had to add additional weight to the back of the TV to offset this problem. There is probably more of a steel skeleton in this unit to allow it to either sit on its own stand or the A/V stand or hang on the wall. If you look at the pictures it looks like it is just sitting on a small sliver of a post, when actually the post goes into the TV and runs all the way up the back of the TV to the top to give it greater strength.

That would make sense to me. If these new sets are 40% thinner, then the underlying structure would have to be made more rigid.

How accurate has Sony been in the past with release dates? The A3000 series is listed as August but the XBR's have the vague 'Fall Release' date tagged to them. In Sony lingo, is Fall going to be September or is it December?

That would make sense to me. If these new sets are 40% thinner, then the underlying structure would have to be made more rigid.

But the A3000 sets are also substantially thinner with no apparent weight gain.

Since the dimensions are completely wrong, maybe the listed weight is too.

That's what I'm thinking too. I understand some weight difference, but double the weight seems too much. All this talk about glass... is that a sure thing? Do the current XBR's have a glass screen? And the 2020's?

A glass plate would add over 120 pounds to the 60-inch XBR5?

DID I SAY THAT IT WOULD ADD 120 LBS ? I'll answer that...NO, I did not. Glass as compared to some sort of plastic composition would certainly ADD to it however. Different frame material, etc. would all add up to the difference (and apparently, it did).

But the A3000 sets are also substantially thinner with no apparent weight gain.

Look at the two sets though. The new XBRs are almost a complete departure from the previous design while the 3000 series looks to be a more obvious refinement of it.

The electronics between the two are quite similar to be sure, but the XBR cabinet is a different animal all together.

last year the a2000s were promised for june I believe, but were not released until july. the xbr2s were promised for september, but not released till end of october. most attribute the delays to sony qc.

But the A3000 sets are also substantially thinner with no apparent weight gain.

The XBRs are much more slim compared to the A3000 sets. The XBRs can be mounted in three different ways compared to the A3000 which relies on its own non detachable stand.

The more I find out about these sets at this price premium (I'm a total sony fanboy at that), the better an heavily discounted A2020 is looking to me.

Maybe the thinking is start of with a super high MSRP then when you actually buy the set, one can haggle to make it seem better than it is?

I wonder if the PS3 not really pulling its wieght has any thing to do with this. Profits by other means?

its so obviose why they are giving these new sets such a high price now. its so people will buy the XBR3s and A2020 now and empty out inventories. if they gave a price very close to the sets that are already out then no one will buy them and they woudl wait 2 months for the new sets.

its so obviose why they are giving these new sets such a high price now. its so people will buy the XBR3s and A2020 now and empty out inventories. if they gave a price very close to the sets that are already out then no one will buy them and they woudl wait 2 months for the new sets.


Maybe, but the average TV buyer has no idea when better sets are coming out.

my big questions is Deep Color. they mention it in the little short paragraph under the picture but thats its. they dont talk about deep color at all in the specs. the new LCD lines have a 10bit processor adn 10bit display which will smooth out gradiations. why dotn they mention this at all in the specs for the XBR, when they say the tv will use all of hdmi 1.3 features?

my big questions is Deep Color. they mention it in the little short paragraph under the picture but thats its. they dont talk about deep color at all in the specs. the new LCD lines have a 10bit processor adn 10bit display which will smooth out gradiations. why dotn they mention this at all in the specs for the XBR, when they say the tv will use all of hdmi 1.3 features?

This is the 3rd time i've done this but i'll do it again. Both the XBR5 and A3000 have the "deep color" option. Here are the specs:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=82521

This is the 3rd time i've done this but i'll do it again. Both the XBR5 and A3000 have the "deep color" option. Here are the specs:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=82521

yeah but that PDF came out before sony offical accouncment and it says at the bottom specs or subject to change.

yeah but that PDF came out before sony offical accouncment and it says at the bottom specs or subject to change.
Correct. But that's a good way to cover mgrf butt (just incase they need to make any changes).

Correct. But that's a good way to cover mgrf butt (just incase they need to make any changes).


yeah i just want them to give a description of how they are using deep color in their sxrds. is it raising the color bit to 10bit or 12bit or what? they talk about their LCDs being 10bit but dotn say anything about their SXRDs

So the only differences between the 60" A3000 and XBR5 SXRDs are the scaler and appearance/depth, or do the XBRs use a more powerful lamp too? If it's just cosmetic differences, the A3000 + a 3rd-party external video processor (if needed) sounds like the way to go.


You sound like a very wise consumer. I'm taking a similar approach. I pre-ordered the Onkyo 875 receiver with a built in Reon video processor that can scale any video source from 480i and up, into 1080p via HDMI. It's HDMI 1.3 just like the 50A3000 which is the one I want and I have two 1080p/24fps sources, once Toshiba updates their firmware for my XA2 HD DVD player. My Sony PS3 already does 1080p/24. I can't wait to get my hands on one of these HDTVs and no offence to the XBR5 fans, but I'll save thousands by approaching it this way.

No offense taken, some people are obviously willing/able to spend more on toys than others. I love the look of the XBR5 (at least without the optional stand) compared to the A3000 which looks far more mundane. Of course, I appear to be in the minority in prefering the XS/XBR cabinet with it's speakers than the much more mundane looking A2000/2020, too. ;)

XBR's always offer much more user menu tweakability (RGB scale adjustments, etc), as well, and have more advanced software/firmware (DRC-MF 2.5 v DRC-MF 1.0). I'm not recalling the input differential, but XBR's typically offer more connections, not that I need them since everything goes through my AVR. Additional features like Twin View and CableCARD were also limited to XBRs (and I use both regularly on my 60XBR1).

unless something has changed it appears both of the new models will be using the same light engines as the current sets. xbr2 has newer, better light engine than the a2020s.

I have seen conflicting reports about the video processing abilities of the XBR's. Do the current XBR sets have uscaling ability? If so, is it the same video processing that is promised in the new models?

In one thread, a guy was saying the proprietary video processing in the Sony's doesn't measure up to the quality that you get from a Faroudja or Silicon Optics. In another, it says they are comparable. What do you say?

I have seen conflicting reports about the video processing abilities of the XBR's. Do the current XBR sets have uscaling ability? If so, is it the same video processing that is promised in the new models?

In one thread, a guy was saying the proprietary video processing in the Sony's doesn't measure up to the quality that you get from a Faroudja or Silicon Optics. In another, it says they are comparable. What do you say?
It's a bit unrealistic to expect any panel to have what has taken years to establish as a third party add-on in the form of a video processor. Are you expecting Sony to pop in an HQV as part of the package or perhaps a VP50?

If the panel did all the refinements there wouldn't be a market for VP's. However, anyone can add HQV via an Onkyo 875 AVR or Denon with the HQV in the next month or so or add a HD DVD X2A or BD 1200 with HQV but none are included with a panel outside the Olevia LCD which is an inferior panel to the SXRD IMO.

Videophiles use VP's costing thousands beyond the TV and to expect the TV to also include that tweak as a freebie is unrealistic for now anyways. The Faroudja VP is quite inferior to the HQV and others from my reviews of the VP threads.:)

It's a bit unrealistic to expect any panel to have what has taken years to establish as a third party add-on in the form of a video processor.

I'm not sure which question you're answering, but I'm fairly certain it's not the one that he asked. I believe he wants to know if the video processing in the Sony SXRD is comparable to the video processing in competing products (televisions). Not how it stacks up against standalone video processors, freebies, and what videophiles purchase.

Why do I have this weird feeling that the new Sony sets will have "geometry" issues?...

I went to CES this year and specifically looked for "flat RPTV's". Some of the companies that touted their new slimmer cabinets RPTV's (JVC, Samsung, Mits, HP, etc.) all seemed to have geometry issues with their display sets. In other words, straight lines were NOT straight! LOL! They all seemed to focus on their new cabinets or better features rather than the more technical aspects. Of course, it goes without saying that "that's their job!"

We should be a littler wary of some of these slimmer RPTV sets. A manufacturer can have all of the bells and whistles that they can conceive in a set, but if the geometry of the sets is "off", like some of them were at CES, then it won't make a bit of difference on how the signals are processed. (You will be so focused on those bowing lines in the corner of the screen that you won't even realize that it's in 1080P. LOL!) And light fall-off was another issue, but I won't even go there... :-)

I plan to wait on the new Sony sets until I see reports from fellow AVS members who have put the new sets through the paces. Believe me, I really want the new sets to be damn near perfect, but based on what I saw at CES, I think I will just "chill".

I'm trying real hard not to buy a 60 inch plasma this year. Don't make me do it Sony!. Don't make me do it. LOL!

Signed - Optimistically pessimistic.

It's a bit unrealistic to expect any panel to have what has taken years to establish as a third party add-on in the form of a video processor. Are you expecting Sony to pop in an HQV as part of the package or perhaps a VP50?

If the panel did all the refinements there wouldn't be a market for VP's. However, anyone can add HQV via an Onkyo 875 AVR or Denon with the HQV in the next month or so or add a HD DVD X2A or BD 1200 with HQV but none are included with a panel outside the Olevia LCD which is an inferior panel to the SXRD IMO.

Videophiles use VP's costing thousands beyond the TV and to expect the TV to also include that tweak as a freebie is unrealistic for now anyways. The Faroudja VP is quite inferior to the HQV and others from my reviews of the VP threads.:)

Well, I don't think Sony would shed any tears if they took business away from companies that sold stand-alone VP's. I don't really think they care if there is a market out there for something they do not sell.

I think, ideally, the video processor would reside in the display. That is the ultimate destination of all video whether it goes through a set-top box, a AVR, an HR-20 from D* or if it is just regular cable. If the processor was within the display unit, then everything would be optimized for display on the set. I would think there would be a market for such a beast. I haven't seen the sets with the Reon chips in them to know what the display quality is, that is why I posed the question initially.

I'm looking at receivers to go along with a new set. We're building a house that will be finished in August/September and I'm just out kicking tires right now trying to make my plans. As of now, I'm planning on the 60A3000 along with a Onkyo 875 AVR. I have a PS3 and I will also be putting in the High Def D* receiver. Planning to get my local channels OTA since they are mostly on high def OTA now (all except NBC).

The new Denons supposedly don't have the HQV processing that the Onkyo has. They are apparently going with the Faroudja instead. As you have said, most people don't think too highly of Faroudja, thus I'm probably going to go with the Onkyo instead.

I would have to agree that the display is the logical place to put the scaler. Just b/c the scaler is built-in doesn't mean by default it won't be as good as an external solution. Video processing doesn't seem like rocket science to me, if Sony can make such a good software scaler in less than 8 months, I think they could probably put out a pretty impressive scaler in this TV after so many generations. Only way to know is when the TV is available.

I agree re: geometry concerns mainly b/c of the JVC's issues, but I also am not convinced that 1080p Pioneer plasmas are going to be as flawless as is being suggested lately. still though, if a good 60" 1080p plasma goes south of $6K, it will difficult to dismiss.

I went to CES this year and specifically looked for "flat RPTV's". Some of the companies that touted their new slimmer cabinets RPTV's (JVC, Samsung, Mits, HP, etc.) all seemed to have geometry issues with their display sets.

I had the same experience a few years back when manufacturers took the same approach to their midsize CRT's (24"-32"). Samsung had theirs on display at CES and they were some of the worst CRT's I can ever recall seeing. The geometry was horrendous. I wonder if this is a trend with 'dying' technology.... an attempt to make the tech look like it's more attractive sibling (flat panels) that are selling like hot cakes.

You sound like a very wise consumer. I'm taking a similar approach. I pre-ordered the Onkyo 875 receiver with a built in Reon video processor that can scale any video source from 480i and up, into 1080p via HDMI. It's HDMI 1.3 just like the 50A3000 which is the one I want and I have two 1080p/24fps sources, once Toshiba updates their firmware for my XA2 HD DVD player. My Sony PS3 already does 1080p/24. I can't wait to get my hands on one of these HDTVs and no offence to the XBR5 fans, but I'll save thousands by approaching it this way.

So we have it confirmed that the A3000 will do 1080P/24? I thought this was a XBR5 feature only (hence the price difference).

So we have it confirmed that the A3000 will do 1080P/24? I thought this was a XBR5 feature only (hence the price difference).

I suppose it won't really be confirmed until Sony actually releases the sets for sale, but they claim 1080p/24 for the A3000 via component and HDMI in their press release (http://news.sel.sony.com/en/press_room/consumer/television/microdisplay/sxrd_grand_wega/release/30504.html) where they say:

"When high-definition signals are available, however, all of the models feature 1080p input capability via HDMI, component, and PC inputs (with supporting PC graphics cards) for an outstanding picture. Additionally, the HD component and HDMI inputs are compatible with both 1080/60p and 1080/24p sources."

I was always hoping some of the processing from the Qualila 004 and Ruby would trickle down into the XBR's myself...

I was always hoping some of the processing from the Qualila 004 and Ruby would trickle down into the XBR's myself...

I'm not sure you would want that. I believe the current Reon/Realta surpasses that older processing. It may have been good in its time but technology has marched on (at least among the custom video processor companies).

I'm almost positive the A3000 series with be 1080p/24 because it has been stated on Sony's site as well as many others; if an HDTV is 120 hz capable then they can do 1080p/60, 1080p/30, and 1080p/24 because they are multiples of 120. The processing for 1080p/24 can't be that expensive that they would leave it out on a HDMI 1.3 HDTV.

I'm not sure you would want that. I believe the current Reon/Realta surpasses that older processing. It may have been good in its time but technology has marched on (at least among the custom video processor companies).

We'll be lucky to get DCDi, much less Reon/Realta (not that I think those are the end all and be all of VP either)... I really do think it's extremely diminishing returns after the excellent deinterlacing on the XBR1. Maybe incremental improvements but nothing like leaps and bounds until we get to (and beyond) 2k/4k... From what I've seen of the Q004, it is unparalleled and bypasses the need for a dedicated VP. I'd love to get one if it wasn't so massive and hideously expensive. ;)

I'm almost positive the A3000 series with be 1080p/24 because it has been stated on Sony's site as well as many others; if an HDTV is 120 hz capable then they can do 1080p/60, 1080p/30, and 1080p/24 because they are multiples of 120. The processing for 1080p/24 can't be that expensive that they would leave it out on a HDMI 1.3 HDTV.

im a little confused why they have different setting for their motionflow (120hz)technology. they make it sound like 1080/24p is seperated from the motion flow technology. so if you turn off motion flow can u not have a movie be displayed at 24? will the frame rate be different if u set motion flow higher or lower? why would you want to turn it off in the first place , why even have an off option.

im a little confused why they have different setting for their motionflow (120hz)technology. they make it sound like 1080/24p is seperated from the motion flow technology. so if you turn off motion flow can u not have a movie be displayed at 24? will the frame rate be different if u set motion flow higher or lower? why would you want to turn it off in the first place , why even have an off option.


This is just my best guess...

Yeah, the Motionflow is a separate animal from the 120Hz refresh rate and the "24p True Cinema" feature. Related, but separate. Sony says of their Motionflow, "Motionflow doubles the amount of frames from 60fps to 120fps and does it the right way by using real-time calculation of every single frame of video to create entire new frames of information."

So the processor is making up frames in between the "real" frames. The primary selling point of this feature seems to be their claims of more fluid motion with less motion blur. The $64 question is, "How well will they do this?" Will fast action be sharper (for example), or will the interpolated frames just muddy the picture? Will movies shown with these newly created frames still have that cinema feel, or will they look more like a TV show shot with 30/60 fps video? Etc. I'll bet that the different Motionflow settings will bring up different interpolation algorithms to try to tailor the picture for different kinds of content/scenes. They'll all still be shown at 120Hz, though.

Frankly when I started thinking about 120Hz displays to show 24 fps film sources (24 X 5= 120), I was looking to reduce the processing of the picture done by the display, not increase it. I was glad to see that Motionflow has an "off" setting and that Sony is putting some attention into something like "24p True Cinema". We'll see, but I have a funny feeling "off" would be my preferred setting for Motionflow.

This is just my best guess...

Yeah, the Motionflow is a separate animal from the 120Hz refresh rate and the "24p True Cinema" feature. Related, but separate. Sony says of their Motionflow, "Motionflow doubles the amount of frames from 60fps to 120fps and does it the right way by using real-time calculation of every single frame of video to create entire new frames of information."

So the processor is making up frames in between the "real" frames. The primary selling point of this feature seems to be their claims of more fluid motion with less motion blur. The $64 question is, "How well will they do this?" Will fast action be sharper (for example), or will the interpolated frames just muddy the picture? Will movies shown with these newly created frames still have that cinema feel, or will they look more like a TV show shot with 30/60 fps video? Etc. I'll bet that the different Motionflow settings will bring up different interpolation algorithms to try to tailor the picture for different kinds of content/scenes. They'll all still be shown at 120Hz, though.

Frankly when I started thinking about 120Hz displays to show 24 fps film sources (24 X 5= 120), I was looking to reduce the processing of the picture done by the display, not increase it. I was glad to see that Motionflow has an "off" setting and that Sony is putting some attention into something like "24p True Cinema". We'll see, but I have a funny feeling "off" would be my preferred setting for Motionflow.

isnt motion flow technology actually 120hz technology? they mention 120hz when talkign abotu motion flow. And i htink your right, if motion flow is adding "fake"frames inbetween the real frames, then your blu ray movies would really be playign back at 24fps right? so you would want to turn motion flow off when watching 24fps content?

Again, just my best guess....

isnt motion flow technology actually 120hz technology? they mention 120hz when talkign abotu motion flow.

No, not really. I think they're certainly related but different. Since Motionflow can be "off" and 120Hz would still have to be "on" (this display ain't gonna have multiple different refresh rates, IMHO) they seem to be two separate things. I would think with Motionflow "off", a 60 fps/Hz signal would simply be multiplied by 2 to 120Hz (showing each unchanged frame twice?), and a 24 fps input would simply be multiplied by 5 (otherwise unchanged) to 120 Hz (perhaps with some kind of blackframe insertion?). If you turned Motionflow "on" the processor would invent an entirely new frame between each "real" frame of a 60 fps input to get to 120 Hz, and would create however many (4 more?) frames between each "real" frame of a 24 fps source. The 120 Hz is just how many times the display refreshes the picture per second. The Motionflow setting affects what the display refreshes the screen with- ie "real" vs. created/interpolated frames.

And i htink your right, if motion flow is adding "fake"frames inbetween the real frames, then your blu ray movies would really be playign back at 24fps right??

I would think that the Blu-ray movie might be set to input into the display at 24fps but only "really" be playing back at 24fps (or a 24fps equivalent- eg each frame repeated unchanged 5 times to get the needed 120Hz) with Motionflow "off". With Motionflow "on" the display would create additional new frames between the "real" frames giving the mandatory 120Hz output. That wouldn't be the same picture as the original 24fps source.

so you would want to turn motion flow off when watching 24fps content?

Yeah, I'm thinking that I likely would. But Sony might surprise me and do a really good job with their Motionflow frame creation. Who knows, I might like it.

Ya this great! An earlier press release states Sony needs to get back in the flow and show their TV experience, because they have lost the edge. So they jump back into the game and gain the lead. Great, so in the meantime they slowly take over HDTV dominance. Now we wait while they dangle each new piece of technology. I want an excellent TV NOW! I want HDTV with the fastest refresh rates, pixals and LED. When will they gives us that? This is really disappointing and I may wait another 3 years to buy. My Sony KPS48V75 looks just fine for now. Maybe I will get a Mits!!!!

Due to the way my video distribution system is set up, it would be hard for me to live without some type of PiP (Occasionally need to check the PiP, to see what the kids are watching in the other room of the house - and it's great for checking the external video cameras as well, without having to interrupt the show we're watching)

I didn't buy the XBR2 because the PIP was half HD and half SD. Does anyone know if the XBR5 will have two HD tuners? Will the A3000 add PIP or will that be one of the reasons to choose the XBR5?

Also, is their any truth to the rumor that the new sets will use LEDs instead of the current bulbs?

I think there is little doubt that the A3000 will scale all incoming signals to 1080p; that will be its native display mode (and no other). What Sony must be alluding to is that the scaler/deinterlacer in the XBR5 is superior to the scaler/deinterlacer in the A3000. Think of it as if you were sending a 480p feed from a progressive DVD player to a native 1080p display that would upscale via a Genesis Faroudja DCDi chip vs a native 1080p display that would upscale via a Silicon Optics Reon/Realta chip (of course, since Sony uses their own proprietary deinterlacing/scaling circuitry, this is only an analogy, and a mighty poor one, at that). However the way Sony is presenting/marketing this seems to be a little whacko (at least to me) in that it implies that the final deinterlacing step in the A3000 is inferior to the XBR5's; which could be somewhat worrisome (however that may not really be the final step, at all, in terms of the video processing circuitry). You video-upscaler/deinterlacer experts among us please feel free to correct my sophomoric interpretations.

I really think this is all somewhat of a jacked-up way of saying the video-processing in the XBR5 is supposed to be better (and prolly is -- but worth $1500+ more???) than the A3000's processing. As for me, right now, I'm firmly in the A3000's camp (60"), until swayed otherwise (although that 70" XBR5 does look mighty sweet :D). All this from a devoted Samsung-o-phile! :rolleyes:

- da Choge in Dallas

Does this mean that there is no need to purchase an upconverting DVD player to use with the A3000 and XBR5 as the television itself will do the same upconverting from a standard DVD player?

Does this mean that there is no need to purchase an upconverting DVD player to use with the A3000 and XBR5 as the television itself will do the same upconverting from a standard DVD player?The TV will upconvert, however whether it will be the same or not depends entirely on the hardware and software algorithms in your DVD player. Not all methods of deinterlacing and upconversion were created equal. And since Sony uses their own proprietary means of upconversion and deinterlacing, it prolly wouldn't be the same as your DVD player (unless, of course, you have a new Sony DVD player that uses the same scheme as the SXRDs).

In Sony's Playstation3, the upconversion process is almost entirely software driven thanks to the processing power of its Cell processor; it doesn't have an analogous Silicon Optics or Genesis video-processing chip, AFAIK. I pass the upconverted 1080p DVD signal from the PS3 straight to my 1080p input capable HDTV (42" Westy LCD), without the monitor using its own Faroudja DCDi-based Genesis chip. The result seems to be very good (in my subjective viewing experience); my impression is that the PQ is better with the Sony PS3 doing the upconversion rather than letting the monitor do its thing; and the Genesis chip is no slacker.

-- da Choge in Dallas

I didn't buy the XBR2 because the PIP was half HD and half SD. Does anyone know if the XBR5 will have two HD tuners? Will the A3000 add PIP or will that be one of the reasons to choose the XBR5?

Also, is their any truth to the rumor that the new sets will use LEDs instead of the current bulbs?

Sony says the XBR5's will have "Twin-View" (Sony's side-by-side pictures), but I've seen no mention of a second HD tuner. I'd think they'd mention it if they were adding a second HD tuner. I'm assuming the XBR5's will have HD on one side and SD on the other like the XBR2's, but that might not be so.

Sony makes no mention that I have found of the A3000 having Twin-View.

I haven't even heard a credible rumor that Sony might use LED's in this year's SXRD's. They've not said anything about changing the lamp technology, so I'm assuming they're still using bulbs.

Does anyone have any insight on whether the styling of the A3000 will feature the glossy black finish characteristic of the Samsung DLPs or the more understated finish and cabinet of the A2020? I'm deciding between the A2020, A3000, and Samsung 76s series, and while I think Sony's picture is slightly better, I (and even more, my wife) am very unimpressed with the A2020's styling, and for that reason (when coupled with the merely slight PQ difference) am leaning toward the Sammy. Any thoughts on the finish of the A3000 or any other issues relevant to my decision? Thanks in advance for any feedback.

Does anyone have any insight on whether the styling of the A3000 will feature the glossy black finish characteristic of the Samsung DLPs or the more understated finish and cabinet of the A2020? I'm deciding between the A2020, A3000, and Samsung 76s series, and while I think Sony's picture is slightly better, I (and even more, my wife) am very unimpressed with the A2020's styling, and for that reason (when coupled with the merely slight PQ difference) am leaning toward the Sammy. Any thoughts on the finish of the A3000 or any other issues relevant to my decision? Thanks in advance for any feedback.

I think it looks like the A2020 personally. It appears to have a floating glass near the bottom, so it is slightly improved. You can look at Sony's website (www.sonystyle.com) and see the design.
The A3000 features changeable speaker plates and I believe the glossy black is an option (along with red and blue I think).

I also love the Samsung's look, but with the glossy black you can have glare. If you are looking for sleek design, consider the more expensive XBR5.

Two more things....I've tried to follow the threads for the Samsung as well.
I have heard the new lamp-based Samsung's are almost too bright, and the LED-ones seem to have a lot of light/dark uniformity issues.

ah, i need help bad, i dont know which to get the 60 inch RP XBR5 or the 52 inch LCD XBR5. my viewing distance is in between 7 and 10 feet, depending if im on the floor in frotn of the couch or on the couch. i read a chart at engadget that said to get the full benefit of a 60 inch 1080p Tv you should be 7 feet, at 10 feet you start to see a little difference between 720p an 1080p . so shoudl i go new LCD or new RP?

at 10 feet you start to see a little difference between 720p an 1080p .

You may see a little difference, but 720p at 60" will not work at those distances. I know that's not what you were asking, but for screens at 50" and larger, you do want a 1080p TV at that distance. Just thought I'd mention that if it's something you were concerned about.

no its more of, should i get a 60 inch at 7 to 10 feet, or a 52 inch ? i want to be engrossed in the movive thats why i wanted bigger and as close as possible, but im not sure if 8 feet is to close and im wondering if ill see any artifacts at that distance

You won't see any artifacts in a TV of this caliber until you're less than 1' away (if then).

no its more of, should i get a 60 inch at 7 to 10 feet, or a 52 inch ? i want to be engrossed in the movive thats why i wanted bigger and as close as possible, but im not sure if 8 feet is to close and im wondering if ill see any artifacts at that distance

Are you kidding? 7-10 feet is 60" for the win by far no questions asked. You'd get the most benefit out of 70" for 7-10 feet.

http://www.myhometheater.homestead.com/viewingdistancecalculator.html

Recommended THX viewing distance for a 70" TV is 7.8 feet.
Recommended THX viewing distance for a 60" TV is 6.7 feet.
Recommended THX viewing distance for a 52" TV is 5.8 feet.

Also, the 52" XBR4 will cost a couple bucks over $5,000..expensive.
The 60" XBR5 will probably cost around $3,800-4,000, and the 70" XBR5 will probably cost around $6,000. Of course, you can find everything online and save around $1-2,000.



Still, go 70" with 7-10 feet...looks like you have the money for it, probably will be the best $4.35K you ever spent if you buy online when it comes out :-).

I have a 52" TV at about 7 feet or so I think, maybe 8 I haven't measured..I really really would appreciate a 60-70" TV.

Are you kidding? 7-10 feet is 60" for the win by far no questions asked. You'd get the most benefit out of 70" for 7-10 feet.

http://www.myhometheater.homestead.com/viewingdistancecalculator.html

Recommended THX viewing distance for a 70" TV is 7.8 feet.
Recommended THX viewing distance for a 60" TV is 6.7 feet.
Recommended THX viewing distance for a 52" TV is 5.8 feet.

Also, the 52" XBR4 will cost a couple bucks over $5,000..expensive.
The 60" XBR5 will probably cost around $3,800-4,000, and the 70" XBR5 will probably cost around $6,000. Of course, you can find everything online and save around $1-2,000.



Still, go 70" with 7-10 feet...looks like you have the money for it, probably will be the best $4.35K you ever spent if you buy online when it comes out :-).

I have a 52" TV at about 7 feet or so I think, maybe 8 I haven't measured..I really really would appreciate a 60-70" TV.

thanks alot that helps a bunch. hahah i was firghting over a 52 and a 60 now u got me thinkign about a 70 haha , damn you. i think ill get the 60 XBR5 its really nice looking and the delivery guys have to worry about the 200lbs haha not me :)

No artifacts, but nausea and eye fatigue is possible if you sit the THX recommended distance. I certainly believe that the SMPTE guidelines are less, and they seem "reasonable" to me...immersive still, yes. I just ask that you take a tape measure into a store, sit on your butt at a measured distance for about 30 minutes, and see if you can tolerate sitting 7' from a 70" screen ! It is about like sitting in the first couple of rows in a movie theater. Do you enjoy that? If so, OK. :rolleyes:

So the old rule of 3 feet of setting distance for every 1 foot of screen is out, eh?

The THX seem too close to me as well. 5.8ft is just too close. Oh, well that is the beauty of it all. LCD, LCoS, Plasma; everybody gets to do whats best for them.

Now all you potential A3000 owners make sure you buy them in the first week, so those 60" A2020's will be heavily discounted for me :D

So the old rule of 3 feet of setting distance for every 1 foot of screen is out, eh?

The THX seem too close to me as well. 5.8ft is just too close. Oh, well that is the beauty of it all. LCD, LCoS, Plasma; everybody gets to do whats best for them.

Now all you potential A3000 owners make sure you buy them in the first week, so those 60" A2020's will be heavily discounted for me :D

Why would you want to buy a 60-inch tv and then sit 15 feet away? I agree, about half that is ideal.

So the old rule of 3 feet of setting distance for every 1 foot of screen is out, eh?


This rule is based on screen height, not width or diagonal. It's very close to the SMPTE recommendations, and IMHO, should be the way all screen to viewer dimensions should be determined.

The THX distances do seem a bit extreme, even to me. I sit 9-12 from my 60XBR1 and I think a 70 would be ideal at those distances (even though I initially feared the 60 would be too big, as well).

The THX distances do seem a bit extreme, even to me. I sit 9-12 from my 60XBR1 and I think a 70 would be ideal at those distances (even though I initially feared the 60 would be too big, as well).

well i woudl definitly be 10 feet from a 60" about 90% of the time. i wold only move to 7 feet when i sit in front of the couch so i can eat my dinner on my coffea table :). so do those distance sound good to you guys for a 60" or should i move down to a 50" ( which in that case i would get the XBR5 52 LCD)

i sit at 11' from my 60". its just how the room is laid out. sometimes late at night when i really want to be deep in it I'll slide the chair up closer.overall my 11' seems OK for general viewing. still good HD effect and less artifacting on SD channels. it's a heck of a lot better than my old 35" at the same distance :D


should i move down to a 50"
NO!

i sit at 11' from my 60". its just how the room is laid out. sometimes late at night when i really want to be deep in it I'll slide the chair up closer.overall my 11' seems OK for general viewing. still good HD effect and less artifacting on SD channels. it's a heck of a lot better than my old 35" at the same distance :D


It's interesting to to note that according to the Viewing Distance Calculator, 7.8' is the maximum viewing distance to fully resolve the smallest details in a 1080 image on a 60" screen. I assume this is for a person with 20/20 vision.

man the sony customer helps doesnt knwo anything. I just e-mailed them to ask if the XBR5 has deep color like the LCDs ( they are 10 bit). cause it mentions deep color in the description paragraph but not the actual specs. he told me That the XV color IS deep color. but they are to totally different things when you read about them on the HDMI 1.3 website.

You don't need to "resolve the smallest details" to appreciate a higher-resolution picture though.

I have a 1080i CRT and I can tell you that at 10-11 feet with "only" a 46" screen I can see a very noticeable difference between 720p and 1080i.

The THX recommendation is more concerned with filling your field of vision than with anything else, to create that "theater" experience. (I think they say the max distance I should sit is barely 5 feet... yeah, no thanks).

You don't need to "resolve the smallest details" to appreciate a higher-resolution picture though.

I have a 1080i CRT and I can tell you that at 10-11 feet with "only" a 46" screen I can see a very noticeable difference between 720p and 1080i.

The THX recommendation is more concerned with filling your field of vision than with anything else, to create that "theater" experience. (I think they say the max distance I should sit is barely 5 feet... yeah, no thanks).

yeah i mean the most i was worried about what if 7 feet would be to close for a 60inch 1080p , like if i would see any screen artifacts

I find SSE much more pronounced of my 60XBR1 when I'm within 7-8 feet or so than I do from the 9-12 of my couch. The XBR5 would well depend on the screen material and if it's glass or not as has been rumored (and I would hope not, as I detest glare much more than SSE).

can some one help translate what this is saying for me? i found it on a japanese website that was then translated by google

"In A3000 and the XBR5 series, you think that there is a possibility of corresponding to deep Color above 10bit, but because SXRD actualizes 12bit drive originally, it is about to think that by all means we want corresponding to 12bit input."

"Recently trying using Mitsubishi MDT241WG, it is to think, but gradation of 8bit drive honesty is hard, you feel that is. In the eye which has been accustomed to SXRD of 12bit drive, you feel that gradation of the XMB picture of PS3 is very rough. When it is SXRD, very smooth gradation comes out. Simply, because as for the PS3 game software as for above 10bit using you think, that realistic it is not, if just the PS3 game software perhaps with the 8bit panel almost there is no problem."


so does that mean SXRDs are actually 12bit? this makes it sound like they have alwasy been 12bit

OK, after skimming this thread I am confused. Am I to believe that the successor to the RxxXBR2 are the XBR5's?

Am I to believe that the successor to the RxxXBR2 are the XBR5's?You can believe anything you want. ;)

It seems like MotionFlow might be like Sharp's foray into the 120Hz sets. With limited capabilities with movies (24 fps), the results have been somewhat disappointing. Hopefully Sony will do a true 120Hz, not just front conversion like the Sharps.

OK, after skimming this thread I am confused. Am I to believe that the successor to the RxxXBR2 are the XBR5's?

Well they combined all the LCOS and LCD sets into one family (Bravia) and the LCDs are already up to XBR4...

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665116636

At least that's my guess as to what's going on.

*sigh*

I am still confused.

can some one help translate what this is saying for me? i found it on a japanese website that was then translated by google



did you use YODAgoogle? :D i cant tell exactly what the heck he's saying

did you use YODAgoogle? :D i cant tell exactly what the heck he's saying


haha i know, its liek you can just make out what he is sayign then he then a word is thrown in that makes no sense for the sentance. im just tryign to figure o ut if he is sayign that the new SXRDs are deep color enabled at 12bit

haha i know, its liek you can just make out what he is sayign then he then a word is thrown in that makes no sense for the sentance. im just tryign to figure o ut if he is sayign that the new SXRDs are deep color enabled at 12bitHave you ever read one of your posts? :)

Have you ever read one of your posts? :)

haha yeah i know, sorry. im at work so i try to type fast to get out what i want to say. but anyway, A japanese co worker of mine translated that paragraph to me. what it say is basically, the new XBR5 and A3000 series is at least Deep Color at 10bit, but since SXRD technology is up to 12bit (in there front projectors i guess) the guy hopes that the TVs will be 12 bit.

... the guy hopes that the TVs will be 12 bit.So do I even if it's only used to reduce rounding errors. Don't count on it. ;)

So do I even if it's only used to reduce rounding errors. Don't count on it. ;)

so to me its sounds like the TV has always technically been "deep color" cause its over 8 bit, its 10bit. the big deal about calling it "deep color" now is cause hdmi 1.3 can accept more then 8 bit( i.e 10bit , 12bit, 14bit), which hdmi 1.2 and lower could only accept 8 bit. So i guess "deep color" is just the name for the HDMI input being able to accept above 8bit not the TV being able to display it cause its alwasy been atleast 10 bit. does this sound correct to anyone?

I wish they were making the 60" A3000 and then jump to 65" XBR. Bigger is always better. For me, the width of the 70" is too big to fit in my cabinet.

so to me its sounds like the TV has always technically been "deep color" cause its over 8 bit, its 10bit. the big deal about calling it "deep color" now is cause hdmi 1.3 can accept more then 8 bit( i.e 10bit , 12bit, 14bit), which hdmi 1.2 and lower could only accept 8 bit. So i guess "deep color" is just the name for the HDMI input being able to accept above 8bit not the TV being able to display it cause its alwasy been atleast 10 bit. does this sound correct to anyone?


There have been several TV's that used higher than 8 bit color that did not have HDMI 1.3. I do not believe this was a limitation of previous HDMI versions.

There have been several TV's that used higher than 8 bit color that did not have HDMI 1.3. I do not believe this was a limitation of previous HDMI versions.

i think they just are makign a consumer friendly word for a higher color bit. not many everyday shoppers will knwo the differents between 8 and 10bit. so they call it deep color now, meanign more then 8 bit. so yeah some TVs before could handle more then 8 bits but i dont think a signal higher then 8 bit culd be sent through component or lower versions of HDMI, infact i think DVI cant go higher then 8 bit ( which HDMI is built off of) so with hdmi 1.3 you are able to transfer higher color depth like 10 bit and 12 bit and xv color.

So I'm very much looking forward to getting a 50A3000 and combining it with a new Onkyo 875 with a Reon video processor. That's all video sources at 1080p. I can't wait till these are available. The waiting all summer is the hardest part. Some people are confused about the A3000 series, though. At least in the "XBR5 thread". I checked all the PDF files released by Sony and the A3000 series does have a 1080p/24 input and motionflow with 120 hz frame rate technology, but in the other thread they're saying that it's not included on the Sony Style page. Well I think they only did that to draw more attention to the more expensive and unnecessary video processing that the XBR5s are doing. The video processors that are built into most HDTVs are not worth it. That's why I want to go with the Reon VP. The money I'm saving on getting the A3000 will pay for my receiver. That's my logic at least.

Is this the thread where we are allowed to talk about the A3000 series without getting flamed? If it is, then let's keep it alive. Anybody have any new information or better pictures to post. I can't find too many pictures other than a small one of the front of the TV. I'd like to see a picture from the side of the TV, if there is one available at this time.

The specs on the SonyStyle website for the XBR5 says that the tv has Reverse 3:2 pull down. Does that mean that it will convert signals that are broadcast with 3:2 pull down to a 1:1 refresh rate? Or is reverse 3:2 pull down just the same old crap that current tv's use that cause judder?

The specs on the SonyStyle website for the XBR5 says that the tv has Reverse 3:2 pull down. Does that mean that it will convert signals that are broadcast with 3:2 pull down to a 1:1 refresh rate? Or is reverse 3:2 pull down just the same old crap that current tv's use that cause judder?

Good question. I have to admit to some lingering confusion over the whole 3:2 pulldown/inverse telecine thing no matter how well (or often) it's explained to me, but I'll take a shot at it with considerable help from bfdtv. Apologies in advance for anything that I over-simplify or get wrong. Corrections are welcome.

The "cr*p" that we have with current tv's isn't the presence of the 3:2 pulldown, it's how that 3:2 pulldown has been poorly implemented by many displays. Even though much broadcast/cable/satellite TV is sent out as 1080i/60, most (other than sports and other video sources) was originally filmed at 1080p/24. The way bfdtv so elegantly put it, 1080i/60 is just the box that the 1080p24 content is packaged in for delivery. The goal we should be looking for in the new displays is for them to open that box and extract the 1080p/24 content correctly.

Simply taking a 1080i/60 transmission of content that was filmed at 1080p/24 and displaying it at 120Hz on the new 2007 SXRD's without inverse telecine would be the cheap/incorrect way of displaying the signal. That 1080p/24 content needs to be properly extracted from the 1080i/60 shipping container for display using good reverse 3:2 pulldown. The question that I have is, Did Sony get it 'right' this time, or is it going to be "just the same old cr*p that current tv's use"?

For an excellent discussion on the subject posted by bfdtv in a "1080p vs. 720p" thread, click here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10070516)- required reading IMHO for anyone interested in this question.

Reverse 3:2 pull down is the "same old" thing that 60hz TVs do.

Basically, some frames are repeated, which causes un-even movement - "judder".

With 120hz and Sony's "Motion Flow" no frames are repeated, instead new "in between" frames are created to fill the gaps.

Reverse 3:2 pull down is the "same old" thing that 60hz TVs do.

Basically, some frames are repeated, which causes un-even movement - "judder".

With 120hz and Sony's "Motion Flow" no frames are repeated, instead new "in between" frames are created to fill the gaps.

What does it mean that "new frames are created?" How is the tv going to create frames that weren't previously there? That makes no sense to me. Is there anyone who can explain how this will work? Also, if motion flow actually works, does that mean no judder?

It's very easy using modern computers.

Frame 1: |--O------|
Frame 2: |----O----| (created by computer)
Frame 3: |------O--|


Intead of what 3:2 would be:

Frame 1: |--O------|
Frame 2: |--O------| (repeat of frame 1)
Frame 3: |------O--|

Whether they insert black frames or create additional frames to fill in gaps, it wouldn't be the same as 1080p/24. What would work is if they stripped off all repeated frames to obtain the original 24fps signal. To display that on a 120Hz TV they would just have to display each of the resulting 24fps frames 5 times. That would be exactly the same as showing them at 24fps.

Reverse 3:2 pull down is the "same old" thing that 60hz TVs do.

Basically, some frames are repeated, which causes un-even movement - "judder".

With 120hz and Sony's "Motion Flow" no frames are repeated, instead new "in between" frames are created to fill the gaps.

Since some fields/frames are already (inherently) repeated in a 1080i/60 transmission of a 1080p/24 source would it not still be necessary for these new 120Hz displays to correctly detect and remove these repeated frames/fields with good reverse 3:2 puldown to properly display the image?

Whether they insert black frames or create additional frames to fill in gaps, it wouldn't be the same as 1080p/24.
No TV is going to display at 24hz, it would flicker massively. Even movie projectors use a 2nd shutter to increase the frame rate to 72hz (24*3) or even higher.

No TV is going to display at 24hz, it would flicker massively. Even movie projectors use a 2nd shutter to increase the frame rate to 72hz (24*3) or even higher.

What would cause the flicker in today's digital displays? I believe the pixels remain illuminated for the entire frame period.

Kelpie is absolutely correct. To eliminate cadence-based judder with film-sourced content like series and movies, the display processor must first perform inverse telecine to obtain the original 24 progressive frames. Once it has done that, it can then repeat each frame five times for output at 120Hz --- this eliminates cadence-based judder, but does nothing about source-based judder.

Thus far, I have yet to see a 120Hz display that could do the above. All I have seen take the 1080i60 signal, apply video deinterlace to the film source -- throwing away resolution and detail -- to create a 1080p60 signal, after which they interpolate 30(repeated twice) or 60 new step frames to create a 1080p120 signal with reduced source judder. But this does nothing to eliminate annoying cadence-based judder.

If you want to eliminate cadence-based judder and reduce source-based judder, then a display processor must perform IVTC and interpolate new step frames. There's no simple way to do it at 120Hz, since 24 is an odd multiple of 120 -- which makes it impossible to alternate (1:1) the original source frames and new interpolated frames, as walk has suggested above. It would be less processor-intensive to eliminate cadence-based judder and reduce source-based judder at 96Hz, but that would run into the same problem with native 60i sources.

A display could eliminate cadence-based judder and substantially reduce source-based judder at 120Hz, but doing so would require significantly more processing power to interpolate four step frames for each source frame. There's no chance that first-generation Sony 120Hz displays will do that. They will almost certainly be limited to interpolation of 60 [max] step frames per second, and it is possible they won't even do that -- they may just interpolate 30 step frames and repeat each twice.

In summary, I don't think there is any chance that first-generation Sony 120Hz displays will have the processing power necessary to eliminate cadence-based judder and minimize source-based judder for film-sourced content. They will be forced to choose one or the other. If Sony has any sense, they will treat video and film sources separately: they should interpolate new frames for video material, but perform IVTC for film-sourced material and repeat each frame five times with no interpolation. Unfortunately, it is cheaper for manufacturers to ignore cadence-based judder and treat all film as video -- that is what every other manufacturer has done so far with their 120Hz displays.

Disclaimer: I have no specific information on how Sony implemented their "Motion Flow," I am just applying a little common sense.

Well Sony said otherwise in their press release. Other vendors like Toshiba and Hitatchi have also announced frame interpolation in their 120hz sets. I guess we'll know for sure in a few more weeks...

Well Sony said otherwise in their press release. Other vendors like Toshiba and Hitatchi have also announced frame interpolation in their 120hz sets. I guess we'll know for sure in a few more weeks...

I'm confused, what are you responding to?

Does anybody know what happen to the XBR5 / A3000 thread ?

Does anybody know what happen to the XBR5 / A3000 thread ?Ongoing personal conflicts caused them to be removed. There are replacement threads developing here.

The "High Road" source for pre-release information about Sony's XBR5 models. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=868003)

The "High Road" source for pre-release information about Sony's A3000 models. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=868006)

I hate when I miss all the good conflicts.

I propose that we have one thread for each size and model of 2007 SXRD set. People interested in the 50" 3000 are not interested in the 55" 3000 nor are they interested in the XBR's. Why should they be subjected to reading threads about the 55"? And what about the folks who may consider the 50" and the 55" but not the 60"? Maybe we need a different thread for them. So I'm proposing that we start with 32 threads on the SXRD and we can create more if necessary.

So I'm proposing that we start with 32 threads on the SXRD and we can create more if necessary.Go for it. :D

We also have to have a series of 3000/xbr5 neutral threads like they have with blu-ray/hd-dvd

So is it known that the a3000's will upconvert all signals to 1080i only? wouldnt that just be dumb when its a 1080p native tv?

Everything is deinterlaced and/or upconverted to 1080p by the TV as necessary for display. Same as any other TV that has a 1080p display.

Has it been confirmed yet if the glass panel will cover the entire screen or just the border? thx

been looking ans the TVs specs on the sony website and saw something interesting, heres what it says under video procesing for the a3000s: yes(bravia engine EX & motionflow(120hz/black insertion). when looking at the xbr5 there is no such entry in the specs for that TV. either there hiding something, that it does the samething or it does something different. anyway as far as the a3000s concerned it does not do full interpolation, if I understand it correctly, It inserts black frames to do 120hz. dont know about the XBRs cant find any mention of how it does it.

Everything is deinterlaced and/or upconverted to 1080p by the TV as necessary for display. Same as any other TV that has a 1080p display.

but on the spec sheet it says it converts everything up to 1080i only...

from the press release:

"For content that does not match the razor sharp resolution and rich colors available on a Blu-ray disc or a high-definition broadcast, the A3000 models feature Sony’s BRAVIA Engine™ EX full digital video processing system with Digital Reality Creation-Multifunction v1.0. The technology up-converts all non-HD signal to 1080i, delivering an exceptional image to the screen."

but on the spec sheet it says it converts everything up to 1080i only...

from the press release:

"For content that does not match the razor sharp resolution and rich colors available on a Blu-ray disc or a high-definition broadcast, the A3000 models feature Sony’s BRAVIA Engine™ EX full digital video processing system with Digital Reality Creation-Multifunction v1.0. The technology up-converts all non-HD signal to 1080i, delivering an exceptional image to the screen."

Why are you guys having a nervous breakdown over this? It clearly states "non HD" sources are converted to 1080i. You can get 1080p on Blu Ray, the PC, or whatever source is spitting out 1080p. Everything else is converted to 1080i which are the maximum amount of pixels on the screen. Nothing is being downconverted. There are only a couple of pure 1080p sources now, so the TV is showing everything else at 1080i. The XBR5 converts non HD sources to 1080p, the A3000 converts non HD sources to 1080i, i defy anyone to prove that the same converted source on both sets shows any difference. You will not sit on your recliner watching a converted non HD program at1080i and wish it was 1080p, 'aint gonna happen. If you people want to worry about something worry about how well the A3000 will handle inverse telecine.

Quoting SonyStyle's "Features" description of MotionFlow for all A3000 and XBR5 2007 SXRD televisions:

"Achieving smoother, natural motion reproduction starts with the right performance characteristics such as the ultra fast panel response times our BRAVIA® HD LCD TVs have. Taking motion performance to the next level requires innovation and expertise. Enter Sony's Motionflow™ High Frame Rate technology. Motionflow doubles the amount of frames from 60fps to 120fps and does it the right way by using real-time calculation of every single frame of video to create entire new frames of information. The results are spectacular and unlock a new level of motion reproduction. Motion performance is smooth and natural." (emphasis added).

This seems to describe interpolation for A3000 and XBR5, no?

However, as stated above by Loki993, the "Specifications" description for the A3000 states 120 Hz (black insertion) and is silent as to the XBR5.

I remember last year the information for the A2000 and XBR2 televisions contained a lot of conflicting, incomplete info as well which will probably only be clarified when the manuals are available online.

When is a typo just a typo, and when is it just hype?

"the A3000's only upscale to 1080i . . ."

da Choge -- 06-07-2007 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10737153&&#post10737153)

walk -- 06-08-2007 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10741478&&#post10741478)

GBPorter -- 06-08-2007 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10743825&&#post10743825)

cctvtech -- 06-09-2007 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10746546&&#post10746546)

I concur, there has to be a "P" somewhere. :cool:

"the A3000 models feature Sony’s BRAVIA Engine™ EX full digital video processing system with Digital Reality Creation-Multifunction v1.0. The technology up-converts all non-HD signal to 1080i, delivering an exceptional image to the screen." ... SonyWhat the Sony Marketing people are probably trying to say is that this "Digital Reality Creation" stuff, what ever that is, takes SD sources to 1080i before it's deinterlaced for display on the native 1080p SXRD chips.

Maybe Sony has found a new and better way to skin a cat. Then again, maybe it's just hype. What I would expect from reading here at AVS is that the 480i source would be deinterlaced to 480p and then scaled to 1080p by any microchip based 1080p RPTV set.

I'm more interested in seeing a A3000 at this point. ;)

there making this "feature" sound new. is this a new feature?? I was under the impression that all the TVs since at least the a2000 series had DRC 1.0. so how can this be a new feature?? dont all SXRDs, and all RP tvs for that matter, automatically upscale ALL content to native resolution or am I misunderstanding something either with the tvs ingeneral or with the new feature on the sonys. This is very important right now, Im going to look at some prices on a2020s tomorrow and if there right I may buy, unless there is a good possibility that the a3000s may be able to produce a better SD picture beacuse of this feature that seems to be on all the older tvs as well, or is somehow the new VP different even though its the same version.

there making this "feature" sound new. is this a new feature?? I was under the impression that all the TVs since at least the a2000 series had DRC 1.0. so how can this be a new feature?? dont all SXRDs, and all RP tvs for that matter, automatically upscale ALL content to native resolution or am I misunderstanding something either with the tvs ingeneral or with the new feature on the sonys. This is very important right now, Im going to look at some prices on a2020s tomorrow and if there right I may buy, unless there is a good possibility that the a3000s may be able to produce a better SD picture beacuse of this feature that seems to be on all the older tvs as well, or is somehow the new VP different even though its the same version.

good question

Why are you guys having a nervous breakdown over this? It clearly states "non HD" sources are converted to 1080i. You can get 1080p on Blu Ray, the PC, or whatever source is spitting out 1080p. Everything else is converted to 1080i which are the maximum amount of pixels on the screen. Nothing is being downconverted. There are only a couple of pure 1080p sources now, so the TV is showing everything else at 1080i. The XBR5 converts non HD sources to 1080p, the A3000 converts non HD sources to 1080i, i defy anyone to prove that the same converted source on both sets shows any difference. You will not sit on your recliner watching a converted non HD program at1080i and wish it was 1080p, 'aint gonna happen. If you people want to worry about something worry about how well the A3000 will handle inverse telecine.


Not having a nervous breakdown bud, Just saying it, because all the other competition upconvert other signals to 1080p. Which is the Native resolution of the TV. 1920X1080"P". Not i. Your mainly saying why are people so attached to 1080p and not i. Because its a premium that people pay for.

Not having a nervous breakdown bud, Just saying it, because all the other competition upconvert other signals to 1080p. Which is the Native resolution of the TV. 1920X1080"P". Not i. Your mainly saying why are people so attached to 1080p and not i. Because its a premium that people pay for.
I think you were missing his point - "Non-HD" is 480i and the best you are going to get out of it is 480P quality no matter if the panel upconverts to 1080i you truly are not seeing 1080i or 1080P with an SD feed the math of that equation is impossible and for those expecting Sony to also throw a $3K-$5K Video Processor need to visit the VP thread to see what it costs to get that bit of extra picture magic, many of those members pay as much or more for the VP than the SXRD TV costs.

Though the panel does it's native display to 1080P you are never going to witness 1080P quality from ANY SD feed not even with a VP. I owned an SXRD and it's achilles heal was SD with gen1 panel - to me it was HT Heaven Wow factor for HD natively displayed but it's SD was something to avoid - my Sharp 57" does SD much better but the SXRD had the best of the best shadow details of any panel I've seen.

He was referencing and the quote in the spec sheet was "Non-HD" so please tell us any panel that can display SD and 480i and magically turn it into 1080P quality - the Turd can be refined but it's still a turd! ;)

wests6969,
it sounds like you know what you are talking about. So i have a queston for you. would the new Onkyo 875 with a Reon video processor help the upscaling of the video? would this create a bette picture with sony's xbr5.

wests6969,
it sounds like you know what you are talking about. So i have a queston for you. would the new Onkyo 875 with a Reon video processor help the upscaling of the video? would this create a bette picture with sony's xbr5.

Will it create a better picture than the unreleased XBR5 whose video processing is a complete unknown? Maybe.

wests6969,
it sounds like you know what you are talking about. So i have a queston for you. would the new Onkyo 875 with a Reon video processor help the upscaling of the video? would this create a bette picture with sony's xbr5.

There are several of us out here waiting for answers to that very question. Stay tuned. It may be a few months before the info is in.

Why are you guys having a nervous breakdown over this? It clearly states "non HD" sources are converted to 1080i. You can get 1080p on Blu Ray, the PC, or whatever source is spitting out 1080p. Everything else is converted to 1080i which are the maximum amount of pixels on the screen. Nothing is being downconverted. There are only a couple of pure 1080p sources now, so the TV is showing everything else at 1080i.

The TV shows everything at 1080p. That's all it can show (excluding VGA sources with a border around them). It will convert anything that's not 1080p to 1080p. This 1080i/1080p discrepancy is either a typo or a marketing person with a poor understanding of how a progressive TV works, period.

The XBR5 converts non HD sources to 1080p, the A3000 converts non HD sources to 1080i, i defy anyone to prove that the same converted source on both sets shows any difference. You will not sit on your recliner watching a converted non HD program at1080i

That's true, you won't. Because it will be 1080p.

The TV shows everything at 1080p. That's all it can show (excluding VGA sources with a border around them). It will convert anything that's not 1080p to 1080p. This 1080i/1080p discrepancy is either a typo or a marketing person with a poor understanding of how a progressive TV works, period.



That's true, you won't. Because it will be 1080p.


This is what I was thinking. Perhaps the difference is when deinterlacing is happening. If we have a 720p signal going straight to 1080p vs a 720p to 1080i and then 1080p results would be different I would think. That is all I could come up with personally.

It's either a typo or marketing gimmick to make people think the XBR does something extra.

Salesdroid: "This one does 1080i, but if you want 1080p you have to step up to the XBR, for only $2000 more! And you know, it's all about 1080p nowdays, you HAVE to have 1080p, or your friends will laugh at you."
Joe Sixxpaq: "Aahh!! I don't want them to laugh at me! Give me the XBR the XBR!!"

The big question is how these sets will handle film based 1080i & 720P material? I was under the impression that last year's A-series couldn't even do 3:2 film cadence detection correctly! (Please correct me if I'm wrong.)

I don't want "new" frames invented for 120Hz display. I want a TV that can figure out that there are only 24 unique frames per second and display those frames 5 times sequentially each for a total of 120 Hz. Will these new 2007 sets use "video" mode interpolation for every source to get 120 displayed frames/second, or will they correctly detect film-sourced material and use simple deinterlacing instead of interpolation?

I don't want "new" frames invented for 120Hz display. I want a TV that can figure out that there are only 24 unique frames per second and display those frames 5 times sequentially each for a total of 120 Hz. Will these new 2007 sets use "video" mode interpolation for every source to get 120 displayed frames/second, or will they correctly detect film-sourced material and use simple deinterlacing instead of interpolation?

That is the million dollar question. This has been my main concern ever since I heard the tv would be 120hz. The only reason I haven't bought the current XBR or any other "big screen tv" that is out right now is because, when I watch those tv's, all I can see is judder (unless it is showing reality tv or something else that is filmed at 30fps)

PLEASE Sony -- get it right! All I want is a smooth moving picture!!!!

The TV shows everything at 1080p. That's all it can show (excluding VGA sources with a border around them). It will convert anything that's not 1080p to 1080p. This 1080i/1080p discrepancy is either a typo or a marketing person with a poor understanding of how a progressive TV works, period.



That's true, you won't. Because it will be 1080p.
A display that is Native 1080P does not mean your going to be seeing 1080P for god's sake - easily proven by feeding it a POS SD 480i broadcast and your magic number will have a result of native 1080Peeyou Turdvision. Natively displaying doesn't mean your viewing 1080P PQ. A Turd is a Turd "480i" and not even a $5K VP can do much for 480i. To get an education on 1080P please click my signature block on the "importance of 1080p" 24fps and 120Hz are steps that cumulatively should have good results except perhaps gaming which has a different math than Movies and Broadcast Masters.

My point is that 1080P is doable but it needs some help but if you read the article it makes it clearer - lots of doubting Thomases here but I see very little in the way of facts to support their arguments against so I guess those folks need to go organize their own LCOS plant and do it right. ;) Below is a part of that five part article:

1080p exists today as a 24 frame-per-second format. The shorthand for this format is 1080p24. But if there is no medium to carry 1080p24 why should we care? We care for the same reason we cared about 480p Progressive Scan DVD: Because a p24 signal can be perfectly "folded" into an i60 carrier2.

To "reconstitute" the 1080p24 source, it is a relatively simple matter of weaving together the fields which came from each frame (and discarding the redundant ones).

Most of the HDTV material you could tune into tonight falls into one of two categories: either the material was shot with a digital camera at 1080p24, or it was shot on 35mm film and transferred to this very same 1080p24 digital format. With the exception of some sports and some other "live" shows, everything from sitcoms to dramas, and of course all movies, fall into this 1080p24 realm.

So how do we get our hands on this 1080p24 if the TV signals and discs are all 1080i60?

To find out we need to understand the transfer of 1080p24 to 1080i60 (which incidentally follows the exact same principal used to convert 24fps movies to yesteryear's i60 NTSC TV system for decades).

In this HD Digital era we are either shooting 1080p24 digital or we are transferring film to 1080p24. There is no interlaced intermediary. When it comes time to convert it to 1080i60 for transmission or storage on disc, we are feeding a perfect digital p24 stream to the encoder which turns out a 1080i60 signal with, for all intents and purposes, a "perfect" 1080p24 buried within. All it takes is correct video processing at our end (the high definition DVD player and/or display) to realize it.

We can only hope that more and more reviewers will test and report on a every new display's ability or inability to reconstruct the 1080p24 source in 1080i carrier (known as inverse telecine or IVTC). There are now a number of 120Hz displays on the market, yet as far as I know, not a single one can do IVTC to reconstruct the original 1080p24 source and then repeat it five times (5x24=120) to eliminate cadence-based judder. They all interpolate 30 frames (repeated twice) or 60 new frames to reduce source-based judder, but they don't do IVTC nor do they do anything about cadence-based judder.

I think westa's point was that every manufacturer, Sony included, would already support IVTC if it were easy or cost-effective to implement.

Every time I have asked about that capability, I've always been told that it was too expensive and/or the engineering budget was better spent elsewhere. Marketing tells the engineering department that they want 120Hz, but when engineering tells them how much it will cost to do right, they balk at the price.

Pioneer and Fujitsu spend the money to try and do it right, but they pass that cost on to the consumer in the form of higher prices.

That is the million dollar question. This has been my main concern ever since I heard the tv would be 120hz. The only reason I haven't bought the current XBR or any other "big screen tv" that is out right now is because, when I watch those tv's, all I can see is judder (unless it is showing reality tv or something else that is filmed at 30fps)

PLEASE Sony -- get it right! All I want is a smooth moving picture!!!!

I understand your concern. From the docs I've read -- the ability to display 24p and 120Hz are separate features which can be used independently or together. The XBR5 can display the a true 24p Blu-ray or HD-DVD (coming in Sept from Toshiba) data at 24p-- what Sony calls "24p True Cinema". However You can also turn on what Sony calls "Motionflow 120Hz Technology" and scale that 24Hz signal to 120Hz.

None of the existing documentation says if its just a 5x multiply but I'm sure that will be one of the options. Sony specifies 3 different settings for Motionflow 120 and I bet 5x WITHOUT interpolation will be one of those settings. But like most things we wont know for sure until we get closer to the release.

However as noted above-- the situation will be very different for other than true 24p sources. Taking a 30i or 60i source and converting it to 24p first will probably not be a capability of these sets.

These kinds of questions unfortunately are beyond the technical knowledge or documentation supplied to the Sony sales reps for the XBR5s at this early date who serve as the interface between the high end installers and the company's technical unit.

I understand your concern. From the docs I've read -- the ability to display 24p and 120Hz are separate features which can be used independently or together. The XBR5 can display the a true 24p Blu-ray or HD-DVD (coming in Sept from Toshiba) data at 24p-- what Sony calls "24p True Cinema". However You can also turn on what Sony calls "Motionflow 120Hz Technology" and scale that 24Hz signal to 120Hz.

None of the existing documentation says if its just a 5x multiply but I'm sure that will be one of the options. Sony specifies 3 different settings for Motionflow 120 and I bet 5x WITHOUT interpolation will be one of those settings. But like most things we wont know for sure until we get closer to the release.

I believe that you've got it close, but not quite right. I doubt that the XBR5's will have multiple refresh rates. Instead, everything will be displayed at 120Hz one way or another. The question is, "How will Sony go about doing it?" According to the information released by Sony so far, Motionflow can interpolate frames to bring source material up to 120Hz, but according to the initial press release there will be four different settings- one of which will be "off" as you suggest. I would think that turning Motionflow "off" would take that 24fps input and simply multiply it up to 120Hz without interpolating frames as you say (perhaps with black frame insertion?). It is the Motionflow interpolation and the 120Hz refresh rate that can be independent of each other, not 24Hz vs. 120Hz.

However as noted above-- the situation will be very different for other than true 24p sources. Taking a 30i or 60i source and converting it to 24p first will probably not be a capability of these sets.

Maybe not, but according to Gary Merson's Home Theater review article (http://www.hometheatermag.com/hookmeup/1106hook/) the 2006 Pioneers, Fujitsus, and a JVC LCoS that were tested passed the 3:2 cadence detection test, and even most of the Sony flat panel LCD's passed. Even more sets passed the deinterlacing test. I frankly don't think that it's unreasonable for buyers to expect Sony to include good deinterlacing and 3:2 cadence detection/inverse telecine for proper display of 1080i/60 film based sources in these high-end displays. Sony engineers can do it, and they have done it (albiet without the 120Hz refresh rate) with other displays- the question is, "Will they do it with the XBR5's?" (and even the A3000's?) I would hope so.

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I believe that you've got it close, but not quite right. I doubt that the XBR5's will have multiple refresh rates.

You may find the following information interesting. Sony has posted the User manual for the KDL-32XBR4. This is the only XBR4/XBR5 manual of a product containing Motionflow 120 that I'm aware of that has been posted so far. While it could be implemented differently on other sets-- at least the information contained provides an interesting starting discussion point:

http://www.iq.sony.com/srvs/DocsConnect/docget.asp?manualid=101173&DL=true

I have attached page 34 of the manual in pdf form which is the only page referring to Motionflow.

According to the options, you can turn off Motionflow which I believe will then have the tv display at 1080p60. I think 1080p24 will also be a display option on the XBR5's. What's interesting is that Motionflow can be set on a PER INPUT basis-- that's great news. There is a also a special Game Mode which turns off Motionflow. I'm not sure if this Game mode will be limited to LCD-type displays though.

I can't wait to see an XBR5 manual!

You may find the following information interesting.

Yes, that is interesting. Thanks.

According to the options, you can turn off Motionflow which I believe will then have the tv display at 1080p60. I think 1080p24 will also be a display option on the XBR5's.

I guess that I'm still confused about why you believe that. I didn't see anything about how turning Motionflow "off" changes the refresh rate of the display. It still looks to me like turning Motionflow "off" just turns off the extra processing that interpolates new frames (the display just repeats frames without processing?), but the display still refreshes at 120Hz- not 60 and not 24Hz.

Yes, that is interesting. Thanks.



I guess that I'm still confused about why you believe that. I didn't see anything about how turning Motionflow "off" changes the refresh rate of the display. It still looks to me like turning Motionflow "off" just turns off the extra processing that interpolates new frames (the display just repeats frames without processing?), but the display still refreshes at 120Hz- not 60 and not 24Hz.

As my dealer explained to me-- turning Motionflow off will have the tv run at 1080p60. Maybe he's wrong--we just have to wait for more information---there's not enough out there yet to know one way or the other.

My interpretation of CineMotion vs. Motionflow:
CineMotion - detects 3:2 pulldown, and performs inverse telecine (i.e. Auto2 turns off 'Motionflow' description is "Picture movement will be similar to original film")
Motionflow - inserts interpolated frames to reduce source based judder

Neither specifically talk about how the conversion to 120hz is achieved - but it's clear in my eyes that 'Motionflow' does not repeat 5 frames (CineMotion may, however).

As my dealer explained to me-- turning Motionflow off will have the tv run at 1080p60. Maybe he's wrong--we just have to wait for more information---there's not enough out there yet to know one way or the other.

Maybe we're just quibbling semantics.

I don't believe these displays will have 3 different refresh rates (120, 60, & 24Hz) for different sources. I'm thinking that if you turn Motionflow "off" for a 60Hz video signal, the display will simply repeat each frame twice- unchanged and without interpolation- to bring it up to the display's 120Hz refresh rate. Since the individual frames aren't changing the two times that they're being refreshed, this would give the effective appearance of a 60Hz refresh rate, but the display would still be refreshing at 120Hz.

Similar for a 24fps film source. If Motionflow is "off" and new frames are not being invented by the Motionflow processor to bring the refresh rate up to the display's 120Hz, then each frame will be repeated unchanged 5 times (24 X 5 = 120). While the display is still being refreshed at 120Hz, it would appear the same as a 24Hz refresh rate since the same data is being sent to the screen 5 times. If this is how the displays will handle it, the 60Hz and 24Hz material will be totally dependent on the 120Hz refresh rate- not independent of it. Perhaps this is what your dealer meant?

Of course we also still have Sony's cryptic references to black frame insertion and questions about how and when that will be used. You're right, we don't have enough to know one way or another yet. Half the fun is the anticipation though! ;)

You may find the following information interesting. Sony has posted the User manual for the KDL-32XBR4.................. According to the options, you can turn off Motionflow which I believe will then have the tv display at 1080p60.

Great discussion gentlemen, although it is taxing my brain's refresh rate.

Just FYI, the 32XBR4 will never display at 1080p60. The set is the oddball of the new XBR flat panel lcd line, in that its native res. is 768p. It will accept a 1080p signal input. It also has lower order processing, as compared to the larger panel XBR's in the new series and also, I believe, as compared to the impending XBR5 SXRD's. All of which leads me to believe this could be the last of the XBR's in a 32 inch screen, but that's for another thread.

I guess my real point here is that - although it's the only manual we have at the moment - the 32XBR4 may not be the best example from which to draw inferences relating to this discussion, if there is any chance that it implements Motionflow 120 and 24P True Cinema differently from the larger 1080p XBR's with their superior tech. If those differences in tech in the larger panels don't affect these new features being discussed here, then......N-e-v-e-r-m-i-n-d. I is two unejimicated in this stuff to no if it duz. Maybe yew dew.

Anyway, keep it up guys; the clock ticks incredibly slowly towards the Fall.

Great discussion gentlemen, although it is taxing my brain's refresh rate.

I guess my real point here is that - although it's the only manual we have at the moment - the 32XBR4 may not be the best example from which to draw inferences relating to this discussion...

Anyway, keep it up guys; the clock ticks incredibly slowly towards the Fall.

I agree that it does feel like we're grasping at straws looking at a 32" LCD XBR4 manual....wish there was some more documentation available on the XBR5s. :(

I haven't seen anyone talk about the new 50E3000 at $1799 available this month. The e3000 is now 1080p so it is perhaps a lower cost alternative to the A3000...if you only need a 50" HDTV.

Since BJ's and the other discount clubs sell the E series, the street price on this new E3000 will be VERY attractive.

I haven't seen anyone talk about the new 50E3000 at $1799 available this month. The e3000 is now 1080p so it is perhaps a lower cost alternative to the A3000...if you only need a 50" HDTV.

Since BJ's and the other discount clubs sell the E series, the street price on this new E3000 will be VERY attractive.

You won't see much about the E3000 series in this thread since this is primarily a 2007 SXRD anticipation thread. The E3000 rear-projection LCD's are indeed due out this month so you might want to revive the 2007 Sony rear projection LCD thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=812029) or maybe even start a separate E3000 anticipation (soon to be owners?) thread.

I copied the specifications of the 60" versions from the SonyStyle site on 7/7 , sorted them alphabetically and matched them up to determine the "official" differences. The "greyed" line indicate no difference. We know that Sony's site can be incomplete and even wrong, but here it is as a .pdf document. I ignored the Features tab even though it has additional info.

Here is a link to the user's manuals for the A3000 series...
http://www.docs.sony.com/release/KDS50A3000.pdf
Enjoy!

P.S. According to the Specs page in it the A3000 does do 1080p/24 via HDMI as well as 1080p/60 via Component.

Also, it looks like the A3000 will do 1920x1080/60 via the PC input.

Check out the settings for 'Motion Enhancer', 'Motion Naturalizer' and Cinemotion, etc. on pages 37-38.

A display that is Native 1080P does not mean your going to be seeing 1080P for god's sake

Yes it does. 1080p is what you will always see.

- easily proven by feeding it a POS SD 480i broadcast and your magic number will have a result of native 1080Peeyou Turdvision. Natively displaying doesn't mean your viewing 1080P PQ.

I'm not talking about PQ here at all. I'm just talking about what you are looking at on the screen. It will always display 1920 X 1080 lines, progressive. The TV has no ability to interlace scan, so any marketing literature that talks about upscaling SD signals to 1080i is wrong/deceptive/silly.

Sorry for a derail attempt... but when will the 60" A3000 be available?
:)

Sorry for a derail attempt... but when will the 60" A3000 be available?

The press release says August. Can't come soon enough - I'm looking at this set myself.

I noticed that the product page mentions a Direct Mode, while the manual does not. Hmmm....

The press release says August. Can't come soon enough - I'm looking at this set myself.

I noticed that the product page mentions a Direct Mode, while the manual does not. Hmmm....


Do you have a link to the manual?

Do you have a link to the manual?


Did you try looking four posts above yours?

Did you try looking four posts above yours?


Guess I need a bigger PC monitor too! :rolleyes:

Here is a link to the user's manuals for the A3000 series...
http://www.docs.sony.com/release/KDS50A3000.pdf
Enjoy!

P.S. According to the Specs page in it the A3000 does do 1080p/24 via HDMI as well as 1080p/60 via Component.

Also, it looks like the A3000 will do 1920x1080/60 via the PC input.

Check out the settings for 'Motion Enhancer', 'Motion Naturalizer' and Cinemotion, etc. on pages 37-38.

Is RGB dynamic range a new feature on these sets?

Is RGB dynamic range a new feature on these sets?There are some new features as a result of HDMI 1.3.
If not already done I suggest studying the manual and also the specs here...
http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&categoryId=8198552921644486278&sortBy=0&currentPageNum=2&viewAll=n&accessory=false&accDeptCategoryId=&returnUrl=&productId=
Where you'll find descriptions of these new features.

For some reason, I can't seem to open that pdf on my laptop.

Is there any mention of PIP or Twin View for the A3000 series?

For some reason, I can't seem to open that pdf on my laptop.

Is there any mention of PIP or Twin View for the A3000 series?No.

Is there a XBR5 manual? I tried using that link and replacing it with the both 60" and 70" w/ no luck. Thanks.

I had to update my Acrobat to open it (I was still using version 5 or something) the latest is ver. 8.

Is there a XBR5 manual? I tried using that link and replacing it with the both 60" and 70" w/ no luck. Thanks.I tried fishing for the XBR5 manual but couldn't find one. Probably because the XBR5s are still several months away from release.

There are some new features as a result of HDMI 1.3.
If not already done I suggest studying the manual and also the specs here...
http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&categoryId=8198552921644486278&sortBy=0&currentPageNum=2&viewAll=n&accessory=false&accDeptCategoryId=&returnUrl=&productId=
Where you'll find descriptions of these new features.

Where in these links did you see RGB dynamic explained?

Motionflow doubles the amount of frames from 60fps to 120fps and does it the right way by using real-time calculation of every single frame of video to create entire new frames of information. (http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665153953)

Guess that puts that issue to bed :)

Motionflow doubles the amount of frames from 60fps to 120fps and does it the right way by using real-time calculation of every single frame of video to create entire new frames of information. (http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665153953)

Guess that puts that issue to bed :)

Too bad this set will never cross the border to Canada

Motionflow doubles the amount of frames from 60fps to 120fps and does it the right way by using real-time calculation of every single frame of video to create entire new frames of information. (http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665153953)

Guess that puts that issue to bed :)

How so?

Thanks for the owner's manual PDF!! Where do people find these things before it's even released? The XMB Menu looks like it's going to be pretty awesome, just like the PS3 menu. Seeing the PDF file makes me want this more. I also see the True 24p cinema logo. Does that mean that you can use the 120hz setting at the same time as the 24fps setting? I thought somebody said that might a feature only on the XBR5. For some reason though I think the 1080p/24fps setting without any additional processing might be the best setting. I'm going to read this whole manual tonight. It hopefully will answer many questions for all of us and eliminate any doubts as well.

Motionflow doubles the amount of frames from 60fps to 120fps and does it the right way by using real-time calculation of every single frame of video to create entire new frames of information. (http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665153953)

Guess that puts that issue to bed :)On the Specs page on the web site listing it also mentions Black Frame Insertion.

Wow, i thought this TV had 1:1 pixel mapping, this is a deal breaker.

I'm currently looking into a Home Theatre cabinet for a future KDS-Z60XBR5.
I haven't found anything I liked, so I'm considering going with the optional stand for the XBR. In doing my research, I'm confused when I see various photos of the XBR stand:

The stand pictured from Sony's official press release looks like this:
http://www.engadget.com/media/2007/06/sony-kds-70.jpg

However, the one from Sony's NYC unveiling show looked different:
http://blog.hometheatermag.com/images/archivesart/0607sony.4.jpg

IMHO, I prefer the latter since it appears to have 2 tiers and I prefer the darker color.

Has anyone seen the actual XBR stand in person?

I'm currently looking into a Home Theatre cabinet for a future KDS-Z60XBR5.
I haven't found anything I liked, so I'm considering going with the optional stand for the XBR. In doing my research, I'm confused when I see various photos of the XBR stand:

The stand pictured from Sony's official press release looks like this:
http://www.engadget.com/media/2007/06/sony-kds-70.jpg

However, the one from Sony's NYC unveiling show looked different:
http://blog.hometheatermag.com/images/archivesart/0607sony.4.jpg

IMHO, I prefer the latter since it appears to have 2 tiers and I prefer the darker color.

Has anyone seen the actual XBR stand in person?

to me it looks like they are the same stand just in the second picture it is on top of another stand and the lighting seems to make it look like another color. i also think it is just the same stand for the xbrs from last year just with the addition of being able to mount the tv on top

Wow, i thought this TV had 1:1 pixel mapping, this is a deal breaker.

Could you enlighten me as to what 1:1 pixel mapping is and what the TV's do that don't have this feature?

Could you enlighten me as to what 1:1 pixel mapping is and what the TV's do that don't have this feature?

1:1 pixel mapping means that the TV accepts a full HDTV signal and displays it with a full 1920x1080 screen. With a lot of the cheap HDTV's you can find at Walmart and such places, while they accept an HDTV signal, they have a display with less than 1920x1080 resolution, so they have to "lose" some of the picture in order to display the picture.

Wow, i thought this TV had 1:1 pixel mapping, this is a deal breaker.

Where did you get this info from?

Does it say that 1:1 pixel mapping is not present or does it just fail to say it is present? Apparently the A2000 does 1:1 pixel mapping according to the A2000 owner thread, therefore I would think it would be assumed that the A3000 would do the same thing.

I think the burden of proof would be to prove that it doesn't have 1:1 pixel mapping.

Does it say that 1:1 pixel mapping is not present or does it just fail to say it is present? Apparently the A2000 does 1:1 pixel mapping according to the A2000 owner thread, therefore I would think it would be assumed that the A3000 would do the same thing.

I think the burden of proof would be to prove that it doesn't have 1:1 pixel mapping.

Agreed

I dunno about the single shelf on that stand, or the overgrown computer monitor look that the OEM stand gives it, but that XBR5 looks delicious every time I see it. mmm 70XBR5...

It seems to me that "Game/Text" mode would do 1:1 pixel mapping, maybe with some black borders. Read the section on wide modes, it mentions a couple times that black borders are normal with "all" input types.

Other modes might do some stretching for overscan, though.

Wow, i thought this TV had 1:1 pixel mapping, this is a deal breaker.I see no option in the manual for 1:1 pixel mapping but Sony have added a +1 setting to the Display Area setting. As -1 & -2 enlarge the picture a little it would seem to follow that the new +1 setting would reduce it a little. The text in the manual says it displays the entire (emphasis mine) picture with a black frame around the edge of the screen.

to me it looks like they are the same stand just in the second picture it is on top of another stand and the lighting seems to make it look like another color. i also think it is just the same stand for the xbrs from last year just with the addition of being able to mount the tv on top

Agree, both pix are the same stand.

Does not appear to me to be the same stand as last year, although very similar design. For one thing, the top does not have an indentation/cutout into which to mount the tv. For another, it looks like it is designed to match the new width of the 70XBR5, which should turn out to be somewhere around 68 1/2" or so, by my rough calculation. (It better not be as wide or, depending on where you're located around Philly, you'll be hearing anguished, blood-curdling screams from this direction). Last year's stand was 74 1/2" wide to match/accomodate the dumbo ears equipped 70XBR2 width. Check out the perceived width of the stand in the attached jpeg, which indicates it's the same as the width of the 70XBR5 shown.

I see no option in the manual for 1:1 pixel mapping but Sony have added a +1 setting to the Display Area setting. As -1 & -2 enlarge the picture a little it would seem to follow that the new +1 setting would reduce it a little. The text in the manual says it displays the entire (emphasis mine) picture with a black frame around the edge of the screen.


That's still not going to accomplish much. This is insane. I was either getting this or the Toshiba 52LX177, which has native mode by the way. I could probably get around this with some tweaking but for Sony to not include this important feature not only in the A3000 but also the XBR5 is rediculous. This really sux.

Agree, both pix are the same stand.

Does not appear to me to be the same stand as last year, although very similar design. For one thing, the top does not have an indentation/cutout into which to mount the tv. For another, it looks like it is designed to match the new width of the 70XBR5, which should turn out to be somewhere around 68 1/2" or so, by my rough calculation. (It better not be as wide or, depending on where you're located around Philly, you'll be hearing anguished, blood-curdling screams from this direction). Last year's stand was 74 1/2" wide to match/accomodate the dumbo ears equipped 70XBR2 width. Check out the perceived width of the stand in the attached jpeg, which indicates it's the same as the width of the 70XBR5 shown.

yeah good points, my gf vetoed the 70" so i'm going with the 60". i'm praying that it will fit in the freight elevator in my building otherwise there will be one pissed off person by the art museum

Is there any mention of PIP or Twin View for the A3000 series?


No.


CRAP. That's probably a deal breaker for me.

Didn't the 2020's and the XBR2's have it? Will the XBR5's have it?


The A3000 has the freeze feature that allows for 2 seperate pictures on the screen (one a still shot and one of the program running), so I wonder why they couldn't do PIP.

Didn't the 2020's and the XBR2's have it? Will the XBR5's have it?

The XBR2's have it and so will the XBR5's according to the specification list.

The A2020 just has freeze frame like the A3000.

I haven't seen it posted in this forum yet, but the Sony web site dropped the price on the A3000 60" from $3499.99 to $2999.99. The XBR5 is still at $4999.99. I'm guessing that the price drop for that model will probably be announced about a month before it ships. There is plenty of room as Fry's in Northern California is now selling the XBR2 60" for $2500 and the A2020 60" for $2000.

Also interesting is the height of the XBR5 11.5" less than the A3000. Looks like the added weight and cost don't come from an included stand.

A couple people were kind enough to privately point out that the Sony specifications for the XBR5 60" were impossible. I did the math and got that a 60" diagonal screen is 52.3" by 29.4". By the way, 696mm does equal about 27 3/8".

The pictures on the Sony web site make the XBR5 without a stand (maybe its removable) look shorter than the A3000. Is the real height known for sure?


I haven't seen it posted in this forum yet, but the Sony web site dropped the price on the A3000 60" from $3499.99 to $2999.99. The XBR5 is still at $4999.99. I'm guessing that the price drop for that model will probably be announced about a month before it ships. There is plenty of room as Fry's in Northern California is now selling the XBR2 60" for $2500 and the A2020 60" for $2000.

Also interesting is the height of the XBR5 11.5" less than the A3000. Looks like the added weight and cost don't come from an included stand.

I haven't seen it posted in this forum yet, but the Sony web site dropped the price on the A3000 60" from $3499.99 to $2999.99.


Had it's own THREAD (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=872236) about 1 week ago.

The pictures on the Sony web site make the XBR5 without a stand (maybe its removable) look shorter than the A3000. Is the real height known for sure?

I don't know if it's shorter, but it looks as if the screen starts 1-2" below where the screen starts on the 3000. The width of the bezel on the XBR may bring the height of the two closer together.

A couple people were kind enough to privately point out that the Sony specifications for the XBR5 60" were impossible. I did the math and got that a 60" diagonal screen is 52.3" by 29.4". By the way, 696mm does equal about 27 3/8".

The pictures on the Sony web site make the XBR5 without a stand (maybe its removable) look shorter than the A3000. Is the real height known for sure?

I was under the impression that the 3000 has speakers underneath the screen while the XBR has them on either side. Of Course the XBR stand is removable. There's no way they'd foist such a monster on the public.

That's still not going to accomplish much. This is insane. I was either getting this or the Toshiba 52LX177, which has native mode by the way. I could probably get around this with some tweaking but for Sony to not include this important feature not only in the A3000 but also the XBR5 is rediculous. This really sux.

I'm still trying to figure out where it's indicated that they've not included this feature. 1:1 is what the previous SXRDs do by default. There's no option for it - no mode, because that's just what it does. Obviously if you mess with the display area or aspect, then 1:1 mapping is out the window.

Too bad this set will never cross the border to Canada

Why not?

Why not?

That's what Ineedanewtv heard (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=871008). Never say never, though. Sony also insisted that they were not lowering the PS3 price only hours before the recent price cut.

That's what Ineedanewtv heard (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=871008). Never say never, though. Sony also insisted that they were not lowering the PS3 price only hours before the recent price cut.

I wouldn't believe "an online marketing specialist" any more than I would believe "a telephone marketing specialist". Here's a rule of thumb, if they're answering a phone, an IM message, or an email, chances are they have very little knowledge of future products".

I wouldn't believe "an online marketing specialist" any more than I would believe "a telephone marketing specialist". Here's a rule of thumb, if they're answering a phone, an IM message, or an email, chances are they have very little knowledge of future products".

Don't forget anyone that says "Welcome to ******** (insert your favorite discount electronic store here), how may I help you."

I wouldn't believe "an online marketing specialist" any more than I would believe "a telephone marketing specialist". Here's a rule of thumb, if they're answering a phone, an IM message, or an email, chances are they have very little knowledge of future products".

My source is a lot higher up than that. I've had two other Sony sources confirm it's true. At least for now.'

My source is a lot higher up than that. I've had two other Sony sources confirm it's true.

How much higher up? (Rhetorical question- no need to answer.) Things can change kinda quick at Sony. On Friday July 6 Ryoji Chubachi, President of Sony Corp. told Reuters news service that Sony had no plans to cut the price of the PS3 game console. On Monday July 9 Sony announced a $100 price cut for that game console. Apparently plans changed over the weekend..... ;)

At least for now.'

Yeah, at least for now. Who knows? Maybe that will change come next Monday...

I'm still trying to figure out where it's indicated that they've not included this feature. 1:1 is what the previous SXRDs do by default. There's no option for it - no mode, because that's just what it does. Obviously if you mess with the display area or aspect, then 1:1 mapping is out the window.

It seems obvious you don't know what 1:1 pixel mapping is. Figure it out, then read the A3000 manual.

It seems obvious you don't know what 1:1 pixel mapping is. Figure it out, then read the A3000 manual.

I have no problem with the definition of 1:1 pixel mapping, and I read the manual.

I have a better idea, why don't you quote the portion of the manual that you think indicates a lack of 1:1 pixel mapping? Because so far, nobody's shown a thing that says it doesn't.

How much higher up? (Rhetorical question- no need to answer.) Things can change kinda quick at Sony. On Friday July 6 Ryoji Chubachi, President of Sony Corp. told Reuters news service that Sony had no plans to cut the price of the PS3 game console. On Monday July 9 Sony announced a $100 price cut for that game console. Apparently plans changed over the weekend..... ;)



Yeah, at least for now. Who knows? Maybe that will change come next Monday...

If they can sell off all the extra old SXRDs that are being dumped here maybe ...

I have no problem with the definition of 1:1 pixel mapping, and I read the manual.

I have a better idea, why don't you quote the portion of the manual that you think indicates a lack of 1:1 pixel mapping? Because so far, nobody's shown a thing that says it doesn't.
How about I do one better and point out 2 sections of the manual which seem to suggest it does have this feature?

Page 36, Display Area, +1 setting - "Displays the entire picture..."

Page 38, "Game/Text" mode - "optimum screen for viewing images with fine lines and characters that are input from video game equipment and PCs"...

How much higher up? (Rhetorical question- no need to answer.) Things can change kinda quick at Sony. On Friday July 6 Ryoji Chubachi, President of Sony Corp. told Reuters news service that Sony had no plans to cut the price of the PS3 game console. On Monday July 9 Sony announced a $100 price cut for that game console. Apparently plans changed over the weekend..... ;)


As president you may be talking too high up the ladder to be involved in or have knowledge of a price cut. That may be a minor detail that Ryoji Chubachi wouldn't even have known and would probably have been decided at the marketing level.

As president you may be talking too high up the ladder to be involved in or have knowledge of a price cut. That may be a minor detail that Ryoji Chubachi wouldn't even have known and would probably have been decided at the marketing level.

Stupid Question: Could one not just import from the US? Or would that be a ridiculously expensive proposition?

I'll admit, I didn't read all 33 pages of this thread...

Can someone summarize the KNOWN improvements of the A3000 over the A2020 models. Or point me to where I can find the info. thanks.

120Hz, 24p HDMI input come immediately to mind...

+ an extra HDMI input
+ 1080p over component
+ 1920x1080/60 PC Input

How much higher up? (Rhetorical question- no need to answer.) Things can change kinda quick at Sony. On Friday July 6 Ryoji Chubachi, President of Sony Corp. told Reuters news service that Sony had no plans to cut the price of the PS3 game console. On Monday July 9 Sony announced a $100 price cut for that game console. Apparently plans changed over the weekend..... ;)



Yeah, at least for now. Who knows? Maybe that will change come next Monday...


Well depending on which opinion you subscribe to; I heard that Circuit City announced the price decrease too quickly and Sony wasn't prepared for the media or the consumer. They did go down on the price and in my opinion that's all that matters. People give Sony crap all the time like they're the Anti-Christ or something, especially in the Playstation threads. They are a business and their job is to make money. However, they aren't making any money off the PS3 anyway. It's a gamble on Blu-ray's success. I've been a Sony supporter for many years. I'll probably get flamed and be called a fanboy, but not everything I own is Sony, just the more import items. They have proved themselves to me in the past with their customer service. They have the quickest turn around on warranty repairs than any company I have dealt with before in the past. Also, whenever there are issues with the PS3, they have a firmware fix within a few days. My Toshiba HD DVD player refused to play about 4 different combo HD DVD discs and it took them almost 2 months to fix their firmware. Just my opinion.

Sony is unloading the 60GB and will discontinue it, hence the price decrease. That should take a few months. What they do afterwards is still up in the air.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to bash Sony or start a discussion on the PS3. I was just pointing out that just because someone "high up" at Sony (or any other company) says something, doesn't mean that it's carved in stone for all eternity. Things change- sometimes quickly. Now, back to the 2007 SXRD's...

Sorry, I wasn't trying to bash Sony or start a discussion on the PS3. I was just pointing out that just because someone "high up" at Sony (or any other company) says something, doesn't mean that it's carved in stone for all eternity. Things change- sometimes quickly. Now, back to the 2007 SXRD's...


No, I didn't think anybody here was Sony bashing. It's over in the Playstation area. Must be Xbox fans. I was just explaining what I heard on a website. It was CC that jumped the gun, so what do you do when you're cornered by the media, you deny it until you're properly prepared to back it up. When it comes to corporations, companies like Sony and Microsoft are always under scrutiny. Maybe they could have handled it better by saying "no comment" on the rumors, but that wouldn't resolve the problem either.

Now let's talk about these HDTVs that we'll be waiting forever for.

I don't understand people being an advocate for one platform over another, eg. PS3 vs. XBox, Samsung vs. Sony, BD vs. HD-DVD, etc. Unless one is clearly better than the other, just let the market decide where things will go.

I don't understand why people have such disdain for Sony, Bose, and Apple here. I own products from two of those companies and I think they are great at what they do. I am a fan of the TV with the best picture (currently Sony), the computer that I am the most comfortable with (currently Apple), and the speakers that sound the best (currently Aperion). If someone doesn't like that, then I've got better things to do than listen to them insult me for my choices.

You lost me at Bose.

You lost me at Bose.
QFT

You lost me at Bose.

Ditto. Let's not ruin a great Sony thread with the scurge of the audio industry.

Robert

More importantly...

When can I have the KDS-Z70XBR5 delivered to my house ?

and

What stand are people planning to use for optimum viewing ?

More importantly...

When can I have the KDS-Z70XBR5 delivered to my house ?

When Sony releases it for sale? ;) They're saying "Fall 2007".

and

What stand are people planning to use for optimum viewing ?

Good question. One that will put the center of the screen at ~eye level and hold the 235lb display securely. I expect choices to be limited.

I'm not sure if I plan to go with a hardwood stand and take off the podium (if it is technically possible) or go with a Sony style friendly stand with podium on.

Almost looks too nice from the side to hide away in an entertainment center.

http://www.newlaunches.com/entry_images/0607/07/sony.jpg

http://news.sel.sony.com/en/image_library/consumer/television/microdisplay/sxrd_grand_wega/detail?asset_id=30552
Need one in hand first. Somebody start a rumor on ship dates will ya.

It seems to me like there's still confusion among some readers about the Sony stands for the XBR5's.

If I'm not mistaken, the "standard" stand that will come with all XBR5's will be a table-top stand similar to the A3000's, XBR2's, etc. You can use this stand to set the XBR5 on any appropriate surface that you choose. See the photo of the KDS-Z70XBR5 below from the Sony Style website (http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665156111):

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u261/kelpie_avs/kdsz70xbr5.jpg

It is my understanding that Sony will also make available the optional pedestal stand seen below:

http://news.sel.sony.com/images/medium/consumer/television/microdisplay/sxrd_grand_wega/KDS_Z60_70XBR5_STAND_RIGHT_med.jpg

The standard table-top stand will be removable for those who wish to purchase the optional pedestal stand to mount their XBR5 (or perhaps even wall-mount the XBR5?!?)

But hey, that's just what I think...

Hello all-

I've got a 3 1/2 yr old 60" KDF 60XBR950 which suddenly just died. The blinking light sequence says it's an internal problem. Could be a $50 part--or a $1000 part, plus labor. I am taking a chance and ordering the $50 circuit board to try myself. Could be a total waste of $$, but I'll take the chance.

Here is my dilemna- If this doesn't work and I need a new set all that is available is the current "dumbo eared" XBR2. I've read up on tne new unit here, but it's not likely to be available for a good 4-6 months and will cost $2K more than the dumbo ears I can get today.

I am an enthusiast, but not over the top. The current XBR has an amazing pic to me and far better black levels than my old one. I don't need to be on the "bleeding edge" and just want a good pic and reliability. I also admit that my family and I are none too thrilled with sitting around with a dead TV for 5-6 months. We're not the most patient bunch in the world.

If I end up w/ a new set now just how "bad" a decision is this? Is the new XBR a huge improvement or just incremental as we must expect as the normal course of events? What are the real world differences? Anythng else I might be missing?

If I end up w/ a new set now just how "bad" a decision is this? Is the new XBR a huge improvement or just incremental as we must expect as the normal course of events? What are the real world differences? Anythng else I might be missing?

The key difference is the ability of the XBR5 to natively accept a 1080p24 HDMI signal and present it at 1080p120. Since both HD DVD movies and Blu-Ray movies are encoded as 1080p24 this is a significant upgrade IF you plan to watch high definition discs over the next 5 years. If high definition discs are not an important item and you're going to mostly watch television feeds-- they're still going to be broadcast at 1080i just like what game platforms will produce for games. The other big feature is xvYCC color but nothing is encoded that way so I'm not sure what benefit that brings.

The key difference is the ability of the XBR5 to natively accept a 1080p24 HDMI signal and present it at 1080p120.

This may or may not be much of an advantage of the XBR5 over the XBR2. What we don't know is how the XBR5 will arrive at 120hz from 24hz. Almost every other manufacturer seems to be taking a 24hz signal, converting it to 60hz and then doubling that to 120hz. So there is still an issue of 3:2 conversion. If Sony takes this route as well, the advantages of the XBR5 over the XBR2 may be trivial. If Sony does things correctly and takes a 24hz signal and multiplies it by 5 to arrive at 120hz, that should be a significant upgrade over the XBR2. We'll have to wait for independent reviews to determine how the processing is done.

i cant believe I'm reading a thread about next generation sets. i promised myself after following all the XBR1 , a2000 and xbr2 threads from inception and finally deciding on and purchasing the xbr2 that i would not follow a thread about a new model. but i just cant help myself. i think I'm addicted. my wife will kill me if i decide i want a different TV. :eek:


Rock on Strutter. I also own a 70XBR2 and I'm now eyeing the new 70XBR5. The torture never stops...

This may or may not be much of an advantage of the XBR5 over the XBR2. What we don't know is how the XBR5 will arrive at 120hz from 24hz. Almost every other manufacturer seems to be taking a 24hz signal, converting it to 60hz and then doubling that to 120hz. So there is still an issue of 3:2 conversion. If Sony takes this route as well, the advantages of the XBR5 over the XBR2 may be trivial. If Sony does things correctly and takes a 24hz signal and multiplies it by 5 to arrive at 120hz, that should be a significant upgrade over the XBR2. We'll have to wait for independent reviews to determine how the processing is done.

You're definitely right....I'm trying to give Sony the benefit of the doubt but we'll have to wait and see. I'll try to get an answer on this from my Sony rep.

The latest arrival date for the A3000 models is posted here.

The "High Road" source for pre-release information about Sony's A3000 models. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=868006&page=1&pp=30)

The latest arrival date for the A3000 models is posted here.

The "High Road" source for pre-release information about Sony's A3000 models. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=868006&page=1&pp=30)


The sony website appears to be taking pre-orders with a ship date of "on or about 8/31" whatever that means. So much for August. I was hoping it was earlier in the month then that.

As was I. I wanted to see September 1st College Football games in HD.

One more thing...if I remember correctly, the A2020 had a March 15th date this year, but some stores had them earlier. Is that correct?
I prefer to buy mine at Best Buy because I'm also getting a receiver and speakers, etc. When would you expect them to be in a Best Buy (either in store or available to order/be delivered)?

As far as lipsync issues with the new sets, it wouldn't really matter if you were routing through a HDMI 1.3 receiver that supports lipsync, would it?

As far as lipsync issues with the new sets, it wouldn't really matter if you were routing through a HDMI 1.3 receiver that supports lipsync, would it?

If you want to take advantage of the HDMI auto-lip sync capablility between the receiver and the display, both the receiver and display need to have the appropriate hardware.

The HDMI auto-lip sync feature only adjusts for lip-sync issues introduced by discrepancies between the processing speeds of the receiver and of the display. It does not adjust for lip-sync issues in the source. So if you plan to adjust the lip-sync manually in the receiver because of a source problem then no, it doesn't really matter. If you don't mind manually adjusting the lip-sync because the display doesn't support auto lip-sync, then no it doesn' t really matter. If you really want the HDMI auto lip-sync feature for whatever reason, then yes it does matter.

I have seen no mention of the 2007 SXRD's supporting HDMI auto lip-sync.

I am definitely going to be laying down the cash for a 60A3000 now it is just a matter of do I go with a preorder from Sony Style or stick with the local B&M Best Buy?

Only reason for thinking possibly best buy is what sorta deals they might offer but honestly I've never purchased TV from Best Buy.

Any opinions?

........I also admit that my family and I are none too thrilled with sitting around with a dead TV for 5-6 months. We're not the most patient bunch in the world.

If I end up w/ a new set now just how "bad" a decision is this? Is the new XBR a huge improvement or just incremental as we must expect as the normal course of events? What are the real world differences? Anythng else I might be missing?

Weeeeeell, we just don't know how bad a decision it'll be.

Unless cost and time are critical factors in your decision I would wait. It really shouldn't be another 5-6 months, unless you're figuring on allowing time to let the dust settle on possible issues with the new model. They're slated to ship in "the fall."

In addition to what others have said here about known changes, on the speculative side of things: don't forget that the new XBR5's are slimmed-down. This may indicate a significant new approach to the optic path, etc., that could change the quality of the projected image. For better or for worse. Hopefully better. Similarly, due to the perceived increased weight factor of the set, there has been speculation about a change of screen material, perhaps ala the old Q006 or something new and "miraculous" that could impact picture quality. The XBR2 has an amazing picture but, who knows, maybe the XBR5 will be even more amazinger! Or not.

It seems to me that the XBR5's have changes that appear significant, at least on paper (and in those pretty pictures of them). This was not the case comparing the XBR2's to their predecessor, the XBR1's. All in all, I think it's worth waiting for the XBR5's, to see how much is hype and how much is genuine improvement. Having seen the XBR5 pictures, I just don't see how anyone could buy a discontinued XBR2 without getting a hands-on look at the new one. Again, unless cost and time frame are the primary purchase considerations.

Ooooooor, unless you really like those dumbo ears.

Just a speculative word of advice: if you do buy an XBR2, once it's in your home you may absolutely l-o-v-e it and be supremely satisfied, as long as you don't come back here and visit the Official 2007 Sony Z60/Z70XBR5 Owners' Forum! :D

Good luck with your decision.

Does the new XBR5 sets have a glass front over the screen? If so this would be an immediate deal breaker. I had to get rid of a Plasma due to glare.

Does the new XBR5 sets have a glass front over the screen? If so this would be an immediate deal breaker. I had to get rid of a Plasma due to glare.


I believe it does.

I believe it does.

I was thinking that was the reason for the large increase in weight up to 235lbs on the 70"..?

Does the new XBR5 sets have a glass front over the screen? If so this would be an immediate deal breaker. I had to get rid of a Plasma due to glare.

With the reported increase in weight for the XBR5 SXRD's, several people have speculated that the XBR5's might have a glass screen. I don't believe that anyone who really knows has posted yet.

From the pics I've seen on the Sony Style website it does look like the XBR5 uses a glass screen. That is terrible news for me. I'd probably gof for the 60A3000 anyway. I can't imagine you'd see a difference in the active picture between the two sets. I also like the idea of the slimmed down cabinet. I'd really rather have a 65 or 70" set but Sony keeps killing that for me. First with the dumbo ears which makes the set too wide and now with glass on the screen.