Hey guys. I know this is probably more of a video processor question, though it's specific to CRT projectors. I'm thinking of pulling the trigger on a Lumagen Vision HDP to feed my 1080p hungry 1292Q. The one that the seller has doesn't have the optional BNC RGBHV outputs, just DVI. Is there any benefit to having BNC outputs on the Vision HDP aside from the convenience of not needing equipment to convert DVI to BNC? Also, what would be my best option for converting DVI to BNC for this application? Would there be any perceptible signal loss? Would there be any other considerations? Thanks!

I didn't get the BNCs on my HDP, but I kind of wish I did, just to compare the extra options.

At the time, I thought that HDCP would be a bigger issue... I figured I'd always be going DVI out of the Lumagen, then into the moome card.

But the moome cards are limited to 1080P@60.

HDDVD players can output 1080i from component (a year ago, it was supposed to be crippled to 480p).

If I had BNCs on my Lumagen, I'd be running the HDP at 1080P@72 to get rid of any judder.

So what about hardware that can be used to convert 1080p@72Hz on DVI to 1080p@72Hz on RGBHV BNC? Getting such a nice scaler and still being stuck with 60Hz would be a bummer.

I thought you could use an DVI-A adapter on non-BNC equipped Lumagens to use analog out? In the BNC models the DVI-A (VGA) pins are rerouted to the BNC connectors, so you can't use both at once, but without BNC DVI-A should allow all analog rates I would suspect.. at least thats what I remember finding out awhile ago when I was ogling them and wishing I could afford one :)

The VisionHDP specs on Lumagen's website say "DVI-I (analog & digital)". So if a DVI-A adapter (I take it one of those cheap little $9 adapters that came with video cards when DVI started appearing) then I'd just also need 15-pin VGA to 5BNC breakout cable?

I'll try one of those DVI-A to VGA adapters out of the Lumagen and see if it works with 1080P@72.

I tried the DVI-A to HD15 VGA adapter to a BNC breakout.

Yes, the HDP does have analog output on the DVI-I.

However, I couldn't get it to output 1080P@72... I got a sync out of range error on the G90, even though I've fed 1080P@72 to my G90 several times from several PCs.

I tried several other settings on the HDP... 960P@72 worked fine.
And then I entered a custom res of 1000P@72. That worked.
But it started freaking out around 1020P@72... I got a squished picture, displaying on the right side only.

So I went back to 960P@72. I played the opening title scene to "Sahara"... a good scene to look for judder. It didn't seem any smoother.

But since the picture was looking pretty sweet at 1080P@60 through the moome DVI+gamma card, I switched it back.

I'll play with 72Hz analog later... but I don't want to screw with the timings right now.

Does anyone know if the Lumagen HDP officially supports 1080P@72?

you cannot do 1080p@72 out of the lumagen. 1080p@60 is the maximum.
I believe the inputs on the lumagens are limited to 1080p@24/25/30, cannot
accept 1080p60 -- some say they can get 1080p@60 input eventho the
input bw isn't spec'd for it. I can't, I tried the PS3 which outputs 1080p@60
and it can't hold the signal, so I use 1080i out of the PS3 into the lumagen and
it work fine.

not sure there is any scaler in the lumagen price point that does 1080p@72...

You know, Lumagen will add BNC outputs to the HDP for $100. If that's what you want, it's certainly the cheapest and best option.

Clarence, the Lumagen doesn't support 1080p72. The maximum output clock rate is 148.5 MHz. BUT, I was told by Lumagen support for analog output you can actually run 1080p72, but at a slightly reduced horizontal resolution

Clarence, the Lumagen doesn't support 1080p72. The maximum output clock rate is 148.5 MHz. BUT, I was told by Lumagen support for analog output you can actually run 1080p72, but at a slightly reduced horizontal resolutionThat's what I was afraid of.

The owner's manual kind of dances around the topic, so I posted the question in the Video Processor forum:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=808696

Sheesh, I thought the whole point of getting a nice scaler was to do 1080p at 72Hz for 24fps film sources. So with the Lumagen Vision HDP it's either 1080p at 60Hz or ~960p at 72Hz (in reference to running HD DVD on a 9" EM focus LC CRT projector)?

I guess there wouldn't be a huge difference between ~960p and 1080p and the ability to completely eliminate judder would be nice. So what scaler does 1080p at 72Hz (which seems to me to be the ultimate selection for a 9" EM focus LC CRT projector) and how much does it cost? Or do I even want to know?!?!

I can't find any that officially support 1080p72... someone show me, most top out at 150Mhz... not enough bandwidth there. Solution by most is to reduce timings as mentioned earlier

the lumagen at 1080p@47.95 gives hd-dvd judder free perfection on my xg crt.

jeffwp, Is flicker an issue for you at 47.95Hz? I guess it all depends on personal tolerances, the specific projector being used, and the title being displayed.

I run 1200p@48 on film, haven't seen flicker

Guys, there's no way that using a DVI to VGa adapter at 1080p 72hz is going to look good..they butcher the image at normal res's.

...And there's no way that a 1292 will resolve 1080p 72hz, I'd try 48hz. From what I've seen they just don't have the bandwidth.

jeffwp, Is flicker an issue for you at 47.95Hz? I guess it all depends on personal tolerances, the specific projector being used, and the title being displayed.

The 1292 is very smooth with 1080p 48, plus it has the least bandwidth of the newer 9" units including the 10PG whch is rated much lower than the 1292.

So 1080p 48 should be your best bet anyway with the 1292.

I run a 10PG with 1080p 48 and no flicker for me at up to 14 ft-lambert on a 10.5 ft wide screen.

Oliver

I'm not aware of *any* scaler that will handle 1080p/72 through DVI. I think this is a limitation to the SiL* transmitter chips. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

jeffwp, Is flicker an issue for you at 47.95Hz? I guess it all depends on personal tolerances, the specific projector being used, and the title being displayed.

flicker is not an issue.

I have a 1292Q and a Lumagen HDP Scaler with 5xBNC option.
I only use the DVI-D output really. It connects to a Moome DVI-card in the PJ.

The one backdraw with this solution, that I have found, is that the Lumagen "sees" the PJ as a digital pj and that it handles output size/resolution in a manner that can be a bit annoying;
One can't change output size without the resolution also increasing.
When using analogue ouptuts one can, but the horizontal frequency increases instead, but I guess that has the same impact on bandwidth as increasing the resolution anyway..?
Otherwise I see no pro:s with the 5xBNC over the DVI-D really, if it indeed is a pro. :)

I run a 10PG with 1080p 48 and no flicker for me at up to 14 ft-lambert on a 10.5 ft wide screen.

OliverOliver, what gain are you using to get 14 ftL at 10.5 ft wide?

I tried 1080p@48 last week (Lumagen HDP to G90) and it was unwatchable. I also tried 1080i@96... also unwatchable.

Otherwise I see no pro:s with the 5xBNC over the DVI-D really, if it indeed is a pro. :)

I guess that the pro that I see with the BNC output option is that you wouldn't have to worry about getting a Moome DVI card for a specific projector if you ever switch projectors. In addition, the $100 BNC option is probably less expensive than a Moome DVI card. Though if one already has a Moome DVI card, then no real pros to the BNC output option on the HDP.

I guess that the pro that I see with the BNC output option is that you wouldn't have to worry about getting a Moome DVI cardMoome's cards are more flexible with HDCP. Lumagen intentionally disables analog outputs for HDCP...

VisionProHDP manual, page 3...
http://www.lumagen.com/docs/VisionPro%20HDP%20User%20Man.pdf
"HDCP encrypted DVI-D sources must be re-encrypted for output. So, the analog output is disabled in this case. Also the display must be HDCP capable to show these encrypted sources."Page 36 also specifies why I can't get 1080P72...
"DVI-D/HDCP and analog outputs to 1920 by 1080 at up to 60 Hertz."

Oliver, what gain are you using to get 14 ftL at 10.5 ft wide?

I tried 1080p@48 last week (Lumagen HDP to G90) and it was unwatchable. I also tried 1080i@96... also unwatchable.

Clarence,

at the moment I use the Vutec Pearlbrite on a curved screen.
I measured its gain as 2.6.
I will go bigger soon (a bit above 13 ft) and expect to hit 9 ft-lambert with that setup.

I am still hoping to go from Vutec to the Ultramatte 300 but apparently this will be a fabric that has to be ordered in quantity for Stewart to do a production run :(

Oliver

Oliver, what gain are you using to get 14 ftL at 10.5 ft wide?

I tried 1080p@48 last week (Lumagen HDP to G90) and it was unwatchable. I also tried 1080i@96... also unwatchable.

What aspect is unwatchable for you Clarence? What resolution/framerate does work for you?

Too much flicker when I tried 1080P@48.
Terrible scanlines at 1080i@96.

For HD DVR, HD DVD, DVHS, and XBox 360, I keep going back to 1080P@60 from the Lumagen.

For TS and DVD from HTPC I like 1080P@72.

flicker is not an issue.


It's really weird isn't it...

I have the same projector (more or less) in a DARK, light controlled room, and I find 48/50hz totally unbearable.

But many others (Jeff/Graham/Russ for example) don't find it objectionable at all.


And most of the US guys don't notice the 3:2 judder. When we tested a HTPC playing Serenity TS file versus HD-DVD Serenity, both at 60hz, the judder on the PC was worse. Which is interesting, they should be the same.
But change the PC to 48hz (it was on a Ruby, so no flicker) and it was smoother than the HD-DVD.

Other than the increased judder on the PC at 60hz, the TS file and the HD-DVD were indistinguishable.

Too much flicker when I tried 1080P@48.
Terrible scanlines at 1080i@96.

For HD DVR, HD DVD, DVHS, and XBox 360, I keep going back to 1080P@60 from the Lumagen.

For TS and DVD from HTPC I like 1080P@72.

You must be pretty sensible to flicker as the G90 is better in that regard than other projectors. I am VERY happy this is no problem for me - better MTF and less strain on the projector :)

When it comes to flicker, I find that there's a huuuuuuuge difference if one is viewing stuff like the Windows desktop or if one is viewing movies.
In movies I hardly see any difference between 48 and 60 Hz.
On a static menu or Windows or such, 48 Hz is indeed almost unbearable.

When it comes to flicker, I find that there's a huuuuuuuge difference if one is viewing stuff like the Windows desktop or if one is viewing movies.
In movies I hardly see any difference between 48 and 60 Hz.
On a static menu or Windows or such, 48 Hz is indeed almost unbearable.
Good point... when I switched to 48 Hz (47.95), I don't think I tried any film content... I never got past the desktop flicker.

I'll try it again.

Do that. :)

Good point... when I switched to 48 Hz (47.95), I don't think I tried any film content... I never got past the desktop flicker.

I'll try it again.

Hehe Clarence - first off as a CRT user you are supposed to have a black desktop :cool:

And then you do not even try to watch a movie ? BIG mistake... Had I only wached a bright desktop this would have been as far as I would have gone with 48 Hz, too :)

I suggest to start off with a darker movie to ease into the whole 48 Hz thing before going to the brighter stuff. So rather start out with dark city than with Ice Age. Like with many things there is an absolute and a relative problem with flicker, which means you partly can get used to it and partly you can stand it better because films have a lot of dark scenes and less bright ones compared to said desktop.

Oliver

Hehe Clarence - first off as a CRT user you are supposed to have a black desktop :cool:

And then you do not even try to watch a movie ? BIG mistake... Had I only wached a bright desktop this would have been as far as I would have gone with 48 Hz, too :)My desktop is pretty dark. It's just a standard HP wallpaper...
- Pentium D 3.4GHz
- 3.25 Gb RAM
- Nvidia Quadro FX 3450 w/256Mb
- XP Pro SP2

http://crtforum.com/img/desktop.jpg

I'm just experimenting right now, but yes, I'd get rid of the desktop icons and go solid black if this was a full-time HTPC.

OK, I tried 47.95 Hz again, and you're right... it's as silky smooth and watchable as 71.928
I don't notice any flicker.

Here's the clip that I'm using as a judder torture test:
http://crtforum.com/img/sahara-5sec.jpg (http://crtforum.com/img/sahara-5sec.ts)
http://crtforum.com/img/sahara-5sec.ts (10Mb)
http://crtforum.com/img/sahara-45sec.ts (83Mb)

It's from the opening credits of "Sahara (http://imdb.com/title/tt0318649/)"... a slow, steady pan across a newpaper article with fine, detailed text.
WARNING: do not watch this if you are blissfully happy with a standard 60Hz setup.

To get back on topic, now I'll try 47.95 from the non-BNC DVI analog output pins on my Lumagen.

Now that my 1292Q is currently out of commission until I can figure out and replace the faulty component(s) responsible for the red tube not going completely black when it should, I got my VisionHDP hooked up to a 19" CRT monitor and talk about eye candy! I seem to have gotten it to pipe out 1080p @ 72Hz going from analog DVI to RGB using one of those cheap converter adapters. The image probably isn't as clean as it could be if I had BNC outputs. That's an upgrade I'm planning on doing eventually, Now I just gotta get my 1292Q back up and running! Granted, I'll be running 48Hz for film content.

I seem to have gotten it to pipe out 1080p @ 72Hz
Did you reduce Vertical resolution?

Click MENU... OUT... RES... TIMING

What values do you have for:
1) VACT 1080?
5) HACT 1920?
8) VRATE 71.93?

Why 48.95, did I miss something?

Why 48.95, did I miss something?
Typo... should've been 47.95

WARNING: do not watch this if you are blissfully happy with a standard 60Hz setup.

Conversely, if you recklessly spent $900 on a VisionHDP (in my case 2x ~ 3x as much as any single projector I've bought) then by all means play the clips to feel a little better about your purchase! :)

Mike, what timings are you using for 1080P@72?

(click MENU... OUT... RES... TIMING)

I'll check my settings and post later tonight/early tomorrow morning.

The unit says it's running at 1080p @ 72Hz. I did a factory reset on it and simply selected 1080p for the vertical resolution and 72Hz (71.93Hz) for the refresh rate. I guess it chose the other settings accordingly?

OK, I tried 47.95 Hz again, and you're right... it's as silky smooth and watchable as 71.928
I don't notice any flicker.


Good to hear Clarence... I like to use 1200p48 for the blend, and haven't noticed flicker before. I thought to myself maybe my eyes weren't all that good.

So you didn't notice any difference with 48 vs 72? Interesting, if that's the case it would be better to run 48 so there is more bandwidth in the video chain for other things.

Like Oliver mentioned, 72 Hz might have benefits in the brightest scenes, but my G90 starts to get soft at 1920x1080P@72 and 1920x1200P@72. 60 Hz is sharp, and I'm sure 48 Hz will be even sharper. 48 Hz will certainly be less of a strain on the projector, so I'll try that for a while and watch a few movies to see if any drawbacks to 48Hz pop up.

I tried 1920x1080P@47.95 on my Lumagen HDP again, but it still didn't like it... I can't adjust the size enough to get the aspect ratio and I get all sorts of funky underscan. I might have to figure out all of the porch timings. Or it might be a fluke with the moome hdmi card. I haven't retried 48 from the analog outputs yet... I'm still hooked up with the dvi out.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on 1080p@48 vs 60,72. I still feel like I'm a novice when it comes to what to look out for, mainly because I jumped straight to the Blendzilla and have nothing really to compare it to and have only been using CRT pj's for 18 months (much of that was downtime too)

Did you reduce Vertical resolution?

Click MENU... OUT... RES... TIMING

What values do you have for:
1) VACT 1080?
5) HACT 1920?
8) VRATE 71.93?
No interest in giving the suggestions posted here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9898292&&#post9898292) a try?

- Tim

Like Oliver mentioned, 72 Hz might have benefits in the brightest scenes, but my G90 starts to get soft at 1920x1080P@72 and 1920x1200P@72. 60 Hz is sharp, and I'm sure 48 Hz will be even sharper. 48 Hz will certainly be less of a strain on the projector, so I'll try that for a while and watch a few movies to see if any drawbacks to 48Hz pop up.

I tried 1920x1080P@47.95 on my Lumagen HDP again, but it still didn't like it... I can't adjust the size enough to get the aspect ratio and I get all sorts of funky underscan. I might have to figure out all of the porch timings. Or it might be a fluke with the moome hdmi card. I haven't retried 48 from the analog outputs yet... I'm still hooked up with the dvi out.

Clarence,

glad it worked out with the PC at least.
48 Hz should be sharp as a tack and still an improvement over 60 Hz in that regard.

Regarding the timings: The Lumagen usually offers you 2200 total pixels for all 1080p resolutions which is not enough, try around 2350 for starters and use pass mode and adjust from there - I get a pixel perfect setup that way that does not have the problem with the picture disappearing on one or two sides.

Of course you can also emulate your PC timings - that should work, too.

Oliver

HDDVD players can output 1080i from component (a year ago, it was supposed to be crippled to 480p).


You got me pretty excited for a moment. I had to go check the HD-DVD forum. I was hoping you could upconvert store-bought SD DVD's to 1080i via component, but it looks like it's still just 480P. :(