is it a must to surge protect a subwoofer?

I would recommend it.

I would use something simple like this:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=125-010

I just plug it into my HT surge protector...

Nothing is a must. Subwoofer amps are no more susceptible to spikes than any other amp.

So if you have opted to surge protect your other gear, then you should do the same for your sub.

Some would say not to plug it into the standard HT surge protector, because those normally have too much line conditioning, which can restrict dynamics for an amplifier. Someone recently indicated that the "high current" duplexes on HT surge protectors may be no better. Plenty of people say amps should go straight to the wall for that reason. And they would probably advocate a whole-house surge protector.

I use a whole-house solution, and I still use a separate surge protector for each of my amps. But I plug it into a Panamax which is designed just for amps (and copiers actually). That's called paranoia.

Panamax also makes a model 4400 whch they advertise as being inductorless, and so is theorectically better for amps. Never tried it.

I go with balanced power technology for all HT gear except the subwoofer. MOV based ones can have more severe limitations to instantaneous current. For the subwoofer I simply plug it into a 20A dedicated circuit. If your area is prone to spikes, try brickwall protectors if not I wouldn't worry about it too much.

I use a dedicated little sub protector since my sub is on a separate dedicated line, remote from the rest of the electronics. So, it is also nice that this unit has surge-protection for the signal line as well. http://www.panamax-sales.com/m2sub.htm

Monster makes a similar unit but, for some reason, it occupies two wall outlets.

Some would say not to plug it into the standard HT surge protector, because those normally have too much line conditioning, which can restrict dynamics for an amplifier...

Some people also but bricks on top of power amps. That is sheer nonsense.

That might be a little strong. In fact, I would say that a majority of people feel that amplifiers can have their dynamics restricted if plugged into a line conditioner. Just that a number of those people won't take the risk, and still plug it in anyway because that is where their MOV is - rather than in a whole house solution. I further understand that a number of amplifier manufacturers suggest that their amps go straight into the wall.

I'm ignoring the recommendations of people I trust when I plug my subs and amps into line conditioners.

I've never heard of anyone suggesting putting bricks on their amps. On their subs, yes. That would suck if any of the brick powdered and dropped into the amp vents.

That might be a little strong. In fact, I would say that a majority of people feel that amplifiers can have their dynamics restricted if plugged into a line conditioner. No argument with your impressions. OTOH, what people call a line conditioner and what is labeled as such by manufacturers varies widely. There are some conditioners I would plug an amp into and some I would not.

I use a small Panamax direct plug in just like you do Kal. Althought I have the Submax like you, I use a different model, a Max 2A20, which they say is specifically for amps. And I use for my subs and amps.

I'm sure you're right about it depending. But it's hard for me to tell whose line conditioning might be restrictive for an amp's dynamics, so to be safe I try to avoid line conditioning as much as possible with amps. But even that 2A20 has some conditioning.

Nice but since my sub is the only thing on that AC line, 20A isn't needed and I like having the signal lines protected as well. I regard this as a protective device, not a line conditioner.

Wait a second.

I have the Monster Powerbar 1100
http://www.monstercable.com/power/productPagePower.asp?pin=1320&LastPage=PowerBars

My TV, Receiver, DVD player, Cable Box and Sub are all plugged into it.

You are telling me that my subs performance is being lessened because of the line conditioning properties of this powerbar?

Does that unit do any line conditioning or is it merely a surge protection device?

Does that unit do any line conditioning or is it merely a surge protection device?


Here is what the website says..

Monster Clean Power™ Stage 2 application-specific filters, for high and low power components.

You Need to Protect Your Components from Unstable AC Power
The power condition in the U.S. is unstable. The AC power that runs your home theater is constantly in a state of flux. Sometimes there's too much voltage, sometimes not enough. Power can become so unstable that you can actually see it happening, like when the lights in your house suddenly begin flickering. during the worst case scenario, when your equipment turns back on, a power spike can be 200-300 volts.

Your expensive electronic home theater components are extremely sensitive to ANY increase in voltage, and can be severely damaged or destroyed by these unseen fluctuations in power. And, when it comes to surge protection, remember, IT'S ALL OR NOTHING... every possible pathway for surges (including coax and phone lines) must be protected.

Monster POWERBARS™ Provide Maximum Protection
The Monster Power Home Theatre POWERBAR™ 1100 is equipped with fast-acting, high capacity Multiple SurgeGuard™ Circuitry which instantly detects any voltage surge or spike and immediately suppresses it BEFORE it can even reach your components. Plus, we've designed the POWERBAR 1100 with 3 sets of coaxial connections and 1 pair of phone jacks, so you can hook up your satellite receiver, cable box or HDTV antenna for total home theater system protection. BEST of all, unlike other surge protectors, Monster's ultra low loss RF circuitry provides maximum protection with virtually NO SIGNAL LOSS.

I use and recommend the Panamax 4400 if you can afford it -- AV123 is an authorized Panamax dealer :)

This is a heavily wired unit, the best I've seen in the reasonably priced category for high draw items like power amps and sub amps.

How good a surge protector you need depends a lot on your sub amp. The ones most influenced by restrictions in incoming flow are the switching power types like the BASH amps, which usually don't have a lot of on-board storage (filter caps) and depend more on an available inrush of current. The other consideration is the size of your plate amp -- I would not hesitate to use any 330V clamping MOV strip on a plate amp up to 350 watts (although the one Kal pointed out is nice :) ) but I'd get one such econo strip just for the sub and not plug anything else into that strip.

Between 350 and 1000 watts I'd at least try to find a home theater power strip that has dedicated "High Draw" outlets, and above that I'd think about the Panamax 4400 for sure.

Wait a second.

I have the Monster Powerbar 1100
http://www.monstercable.com/power/productPagePower.asp?pin=1320&LastPage=PowerBars

My TV, Receiver, DVD player, Cable Box and Sub are all plugged into it.

You are telling me that my subs performance is being lessened because of the line conditioning properties of this powerbar?
Plug your sub into the wall.

Here is what the website says..

Monster Clean Power™ Stage 2 application-specific filters, for high and low power components.

You Need to Protect Your Components from Unstable AC Power
The power condition in the U.S. is unstable. The AC power that runs your home theater is constantly in a state of flux. Sometimes there's too much voltage, sometimes not enough. Power can become so unstable that you can actually see it happening, like when the lights in your house suddenly begin flickering. during the worst case scenario, when your equipment turns back on, a power spike can be 200-300 volts.

Your expensive electronic home theater components are extremely sensitive to ANY increase in voltage, and can be severely damaged or destroyed by these unseen fluctuations in power. And, when it comes to surge protection, remember, IT'S ALL OR NOTHING... every possible pathway for surges (including coax and phone lines) must be protected.

Monster POWERBARS™ Provide Maximum Protection
The Monster Power Home Theatre POWERBAR™ 1100 is equipped with fast-acting, high capacity Multiple SurgeGuard™ Circuitry which instantly detects any voltage surge or spike and immediately suppresses it BEFORE it can even reach your components. Plus, we've designed the POWERBAR 1100 with 3 sets of coaxial connections and 1 pair of phone jacks, so you can hook up your satellite receiver, cable box or HDTV antenna for total home theater system protection. BEST of all, unlike other surge protectors, Monster's ultra low loss RF circuitry provides maximum protection with virtually NO SIGNAL LOSS.Yeah. I read that. Nothing there. BTW, I use a Monster 2000 strip for some connections, so I am not really anti-Monster. However, all I see is surge protection.

Yeah the Panamx 4400 is the one I wanted. I think I mentioned it earlier. But too expensive. I think it may be discontinued too. Not sure where I heard that, so may not be true.

Some ubiquitous guy named Kal Rubinson did a review a few years ago with 4 different surge protectors. I think one was a Brickwall and another was a PS Audio power director. Don't remember the other 2. But I think he ended up taking the amp out of the equation because he noticed restricted dynamics in most but NOT all of the line conditioners. Maybe Kal can give you the site.

As the question about the Monster unit, that apparently uses their stage 2 line conditioning. If that means 2 different stages, rather than 1 better quality stage of conditioning, I would probably go with a cheaper unit that had less line conditioning. Just 1 stage.

I have several Monster units. A few 7000s, 5000s and 3000s and they all have a "high current" duplex. But (and I think it was Chu Gai who suggested this) that label may not mean anything.

Some ubiquitous guy named Kal Rubinson did a review a few years ago with 4 different surge protectors. I think one was a Brickwall and another was a PS Audio power director. Don't remember the other 2. But I think he ended up taking the amp out of the equation because he noticed restricted dynamics in most but NOT all of the line conditioners. Maybe Kal can give you the site.Yup. See my signature.

Does that unit do any line conditioning or is it merely a surge protection device?
That unit is supposed to remove EMI and "noise", but no voltage stabilization or conditioning.

Plug your sub into the wall.
Yeah...that would be brilliant. So when lightning strikes your house and it gets into your house it goes through your sub, up the IC and into your receiver or pre/pro.

I use a dedicated little sub protector since my sub is on a separate dedicated line, remote from the rest of the electronics. So, it is also nice that this unit has surge-protection for the signal line as well. http://www.panamax-sales.com/m2sub.htm
.

would this Panamax MAX 2 Sub be suitable for my Subwoofer AND 800watt Receiver?

also would it be a good idea to plug another powerbar into the little unit to expand outlets?

would this Panamax MAX 2 Sub be suitable for my Subwoofer AND 800watt Receiver?

also would it be a good idea to plug another powerbar into the little unit to expand outlets?This is a little unit and you should look up its specs to see if it is adequate for your two units. I would NOT plug a power bar into it. In fact, I probably would not even be using it if I didn't have a main-box-mounted, whole-house surge protector in front of it.

i use the panamax 5400 for the whole ht.

i use the panamax 5400 for the whole ht.I would use the same box for everything, too, if it was not that the sub is too far away and, rather than run a very long power cord, I use another dedicated AC line for it. Hence the use of that cute additional module. BTW, I also have a Panamax Max-In-Wall system for the plasma.

This is a little unit and you should look up its specs to see if it is adequate for your two units.


thanks for the advice. I looked at the specs, but they dont mean much to me. What should I be looking at?

thanks for the advice. I looked at the specs, but they dont mean much to me. What should I be looking at?Well, its maximum load is 15A or 1800W. I try to keep my equipment loads to about half of the max. What is the current draw from your units?

oh okay. Well my receiver is 800 watts and the subwoofer is 500 watts (150 RMS). both figures are peaks.

Are those AC current ratings? Or are those the output watts?

I've been using one of these since the late 90's with no hiccups. My receiver, Dvd player, cd player, and sub is plugged into it.

http://www.buy.com/prod/tripp-lite-isobar6dbs-6-outlet-metal-casing-surge/q/loc/101/90100661.html

Show me a test where an amp's output has been restricted by a surge supressor.

Show me a test where an amp's output has been restricted by a surge supressor.Never seen one. That's the reason that good amps have large capacitor reservoirs. OTOH, I have heard what I regard as poor or weaker sound from an amp with a very few devices. Could it be something else? 30ga wiring inside?

Never seen one. That's the reason that good amps have large capacitor reservoirs. OTOH, I have heard what I regard as poor or weaker sound from an amp with a very few devices. Could it be something else? 30ga wiring inside?

Amps have large capacitors to remove hum and ripples from the rectified AC. (Electronics 101). Any household 15 amp outllet can provide (P=IxE) 1,755 watts of continuous RMS power and that's the only restriction whether you use a surge suppressor or not.

Try this at home. Get 10 200 watt light bulbs and plug one at a time into a surge suppressor. None will fail to light or dimm till the breaker at the supressor or your breaker cabinet trips. Provided, of course you have wiring to code.

John, you've got the wrong end of the stick :)

If only audio were that simple! The complex transfer function of a power amp is not a light bulb, John.

As an example, with my mid-fi equipment I have not heard differences in power cords -- but I don't doubt those who CAN, given good enough (or persnickity enough) equipment.

As pennace, John, why don't you research the types of power supplies and amp topologies that are most sensitive to input power impedance characteristics and report back on what you find.

I use a PS Audio high current outlet. Seems to work well with my Velodyne.

It should, Surf'! Paul's baluns are a simple elegant way to address todays noisy lines without blocking current much. If only equipment mfgr's would include them in their power supplies! I say this without fear of damaging Paul's business, as (John) power supplies are one of the most expensive parts to mfgr and one of the first to be budget cut. It would be nice if every piece of audio equipment came with the guts of something like PS Audio's Soloist or Duet built in -- plus whatever else it would take to completely isolate the downstream electronics from conditions on the incoming power line. It would also be nice if everyone in the market for, say, a Yamaha RX-V659, could afford to pay double for it. :)

http://enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1206/ps_audio_jps_labs.htm

John, you've got the wrong end of the stick :)

If only audio were that simple! The complex transfer function of a power amp is not a light bulb, John.

As an example, with my mid-fi equipment I have not heard differences in power cords -- but I don't doubt those who CAN, given good enough (or persnickity enough) equipment.

As pennace, John, why don't you research the types of power supplies and amp topologies that are most sensitive to input power impedance characteristics and report back on what you find.

Seems to me you are the one that needs to do research!
The transfer function of an amp has NOTHING to do with the power supply or the AC feeding it. If you chose to use terms like "transfer function" you should, at least, find out what they mean. "Magic" power cords belong with snake oil and other audio nonsense. The myth that an amp creates a surge in input AC current during heavy output demands is total Bandini. No matter what power supply they use. Instead of telling me to "do penance"(another idiotic term); Why don't you educate yourself in electronics 101.

All recording studios and mobile units utilize spike and surge protectors. Are these people "constricting their dynamics" while they record and mix masters?

Of course not. I have been in the technical business of television for well over forty years and to this day I can't believe the amount of missinformation that gets published with no scientific data to back it up. Pitty the newcomer who is exposed to: "Magic speaker wire", directional interconnects, amplifier bricks and "magic power cords".

There's a lot of audio alchemists out there with no educational background in electronics, manufacturing and selling all kinds of gadgets that cater to the rich and gullible.

There's also those that keep perpetuating all this bunk that cannot be tested or proven. For every bonafide scientist there's a whole bunch "self educated" technobables that can "hear things" that nobody else can and own those gadgets.

One needs to choose what camp to be educated by.

Well said and quite true.

Seems to me you are the one that needs to do research!
The transfer function of an amp has NOTHING to do with the power supply or the AC feeding it. If you chose to use terms like "transfer function" you should, at least, find out what they mean. "Magic" power cords belong with snake oil and other audio nonsense. The myth that an amp creates a surge in input AC current during heavy output demands is total Bandini. No matter what power supply they use. Instead of telling me to "do penance"(another idiotic term); Why don't you educate yourself in electronics 101.

All recording studios and mobile units utilize spike and surge protectors. Are these people "constricting their dynamics" while they record and mix masters?

Of course not. I have been in the technical business of television for well over forty years and to this day I can't believe the amount of missinformation that gets published with no scientific data to back it up. Pitty the newcomer who is exposed to: "Magic speaker wire", directional interconnects, amplifier bricks and "magic power cords".

There's a lot of audio alchemists out there with no educational background in electronics, manufacturing and selling all kinds of gadgets that cater to the rich and gullible.

There's also those that keep perpetuating all this bunk that cannot be tested or proven. For every bonafide scientist there's a whole bunch "self educated" technobables that can "hear things" that nobody else can and own those gadgets.

One needs to choose what camp to be educated by.
Well said for sure. And some who claim to hear the differnece, belong to the zoo :p

Seems to me you are the one that needs to do research!
The transfer function of an amp has NOTHING to do with the power supply or the AC feeding it. If you chose to use terms like "transfer function" you should, at least, find out what they mean. "Magic" power cords belong with snake oil and other audio nonsense. The myth that an amp creates a surge in input AC current during heavy output demands is total Bandini. No matter what power supply they use. Instead of telling me to "do penance"(another idiotic term); Why don't you educate yourself in electronics 101.

All recording studios and mobile units utilize spike and surge protectors. Are these people "constricting their dynamics" while they record and mix masters?

Of course not. I have been in the technical business of television for well over forty years and to this day I can't believe the amount of missinformation that gets published with no scientific data to back it up. Pitty the newcomer who is exposed to: "Magic speaker wire", directional interconnects, amplifier bricks and "magic power cords".

There's a lot of audio alchemists out there with no educational background in electronics, manufacturing and selling all kinds of gadgets that cater to the rich and gullible.

There's also those that keep perpetuating all this bunk that cannot be tested or proven. For every bonafide scientist there's a whole bunch "self educated" technobables that can "hear things" that nobody else can and own those gadgets.

One needs to choose what camp to be educated by.

My nomination for post of the year.

All recording studios and mobile units utilize spike and surge protectors. Are these people "constricting their dynamics" while they record and mix masters?

Isn't the issue whether certain types of line conditioning can restrict dynamics? Not whether surge protectors can restrict it. I don't feel like digging out any of my owner's manuals, but I seem to recall that even the amp manufacturers suggest plugging them straight into the wall.

Isn't the issue whether certain types of line conditioning can restrict dynamics? Not whether surge protectors can restrict it. I don't feel like digging out any of my owner's manuals, but I seem to recall that even the amp manufacturers suggest plugging them straight into the wall.

This thread's title is: "Surge protecting for a sub" not power conditioners protecting a sub.

None of the manuals of the power amps I have owned has suggested not using surge protectors. And all the latest ones have been very high powered.

The issue of line conditioning is probably more complicated as the term is not as specific as surge protection.

Some surge protectors claim to perform "line conditioning". And, I guess, technically that could be true. After all a device that removes spikes and noise is, in a sense, doing some conditioning to the line.

It would be fair to say that most of us expect a bit more of a line conditioner. From extensive noise filtering to voltage regulation. Here's where it gets complicated, because regulators are not easy to spec out with one wattage or amperage rating. Usually the more thay have to step up the voltage the less current thay can output.

This can be a discusion for another thread. I have never had to use a VR on my gear.

i would think at least putting a surge protector on any piece
of hi-fi gear is a good thing if you value it and a good way to
upgrade if you do not.

i would think at least putting a surge protector on any piece
of hi-fi gear is a good thing if you value it and a good way to
upgrade if you do not.

Indeed. I use them on every expensive electronic gadget I have, including all TV's, printers, scanners and fax machines. For PC's I use a UPS.

Yeah the Panamx 4400 is the one I wanted. I think I mentioned it earlier. But too expensive. I think it may be discontinued too. Not sure where I heard that, so may not be true.

I'm pretty sure this is still available as it is listed in the current catalog from one of the wholesalers I buy from.

Some people also but bricks on top of power amps. That is sheer nonsense.

John I took your post no. 8 to indicate that you thought it was nonsense that some line conditioning (not surge protection) might restrict dynamics.

For so little money ($25-$35), I don't see how there can be anything to risk with simple MOV or other protection in line to an amp. As long as they don't have unrealistic expectations about lightning which fools them into not taking proper precautions. It seemed like you were responding to my parroting of other people's cautions about line conditioning. And of course there is no precise definition that I'm aware of, but in accepted usage I think that people infer that to indicate filters, chokes, etc. But that is what Kal responded by indicating that it depended on the type of line conditioner.

I'm pretty sure this is still available as it is listed in the current catalog from one of the wholesalers I buy from.

I'm going from memory myself, but I think I was speaking to Panamax directly when I was told that it was not a current model. Doesn't mean that some wholesaler doesn't have one left. I didn't pursue it aggressively because it was more expensive than the $35 Panamax that I ended up buying. I only asked Panamx about the 4400 for purposes of comparison to the cheap one that I was leaning towards.

For PC's I use a UPS.

I've tried a few times to start a thread on this and never had a bite. One more try.

Although an amplifier isn't as analogous to a computer, what about other components that people plug into standard surge protectors or line conditioners. For example, the 1st gen Toshiba HD-DVD players which believe were just NEC DVD-Roms running a Linux based operating system with P4 chip and a 1 gig of Ram.

Most of the UPS that I've seen have voltage regulation. Some even regenerate so it's a steady 120 v. If that is reason (I said if) you use it for PCs, what about for HT components which are cousins to PCs.

I'm not talking about the obvious recommendations for displays that may need power to cool down the lamps during an outage.

I've tried a few times to start a thread on this and never had a bite. One more try.

Although an amplifier isn't as analogous to a computer, what about other components that people plug into standard surge protectors or line conditioners. For example, the 1st gen Toshiba HD-DVD players which believe were just NEC DVD-Roms running a Linux based operating system with P4 chip and a 1 gig of Ram.

Most of the UPS that I've seen have voltage regulation. Some even regenerate so it's a steady 120 v. If that is reason (I said if) you use it for PCs, what about for HT components which are cousins to PCs.

I'm not talking about the obvious recommendations for displays that may need power to cool down the lamps during an outage.

The problem with most common UPS's is that they do not produce sine waves at their output when running on batteries, This is not an issue with PC's power supplies but it is with most home HT gear. Some high end UPS's do have sinusoidal output and you can use those with HT gear. Just make sure that you get one of enough wattage to handle the load. It is a common practice for UPS manufacturers to rate their product in VA instead of watts. VA is volts x amps which at first glance would seem like the same thing, but it is not. Due to the power factor it yields a higher number than the actual wattage rating. You'll find the actual wattage in the small print.

VA is volts x amps which at first glance would seem like the same thing, but it is not. Due to the power factor it yields a higher number than the actual wattage rating. You'll find the actual wattage in the small print.


To be safe, you want to use the RMS wattage, which is lower than the advertised VA wattage, like John said. To get the RMS (root mean square) wattage, divide the VA by the square root of 2 (approx. 1.41421356).

To be safe, you want to use the RMS wattage, which is lower than the advertised VA wattage, like John said. To get the RMS (root mean square) wattage, divide the VA by the square root of 2 (approx. 1.41421356).

No, no, no. Sorry that is not right. Let's start from scratch. VA (volt-amps) and wattage can be either RMS, peak or peak-to-peak.

To quote anything but RMS is outright deceit because RMS is the equivalent of the energy supplied by a DC voltage of the same number of volts. RMS should always be used when determining power requirements.

The confusion comes with the VA or wattage issue. They are both in watts and they both should be RMS. The VA figure assumes a perfectly resistive load (Never happens in a power supply) the wattage figure takes into account the power factor (voltage leading or lagging current) and adjust the rating downward accordingly.

Therfore the VA rating is only valid if the UPS is driving a 100% resistive load, which is not realistic. The wattage rating specifies the power the UPS is capable of delivering to a reactive or resistive load.

Hope this clarifies or totally confuses you. Remeber the three s's;
Science is seldom simple.

I stand corrected. I have not used my E&M for over ten years, and obviously my memory is faulty. I thought that VA was peak-to-peak, and that taking the RMS value of a pure sinusoidal wave would give the acual wattage requirement. Sorry for the confusion (that's what I get for chiming in where I am in no way an authority). So, I was thinking along the lines of 1800 VA = 15A which leads to 1273 watts RMS. John, what is the correct calculation?...

It depends on the load. Check this out:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor

It is a very good but short and clear explanation of the phenomenae.

If you have a 20 amp circuit, with components that draw 20 amps, then, yes, a surge protector that is rated for 15A would be a limiting factor. Not a likely senario. The equipment we have very rarely, or ever, pulls the amps from a wall that are written on their back plates.
It's snake oil.