Hi guys,

I just started watching the Blue Ray version of NIN Beside You In Time, but I noticed that when I hit the info button on my Samsung HLS 5087w the resolution shows as 1920 x 1080i I checked the settings on my PS3 and 1080p is selected, but when playing the disc the max resolution is only 1080i. I've played around with the settings but I can't get my PS3 to display this blu ray disc at 1080p on my 1080p tv, has anyone else experienced this problem? :confused:

You have watched other Blu-ray movies in 1080p on the same HDTV right?

This is not a problem.

In the Blu-ray spec, 1080p/30 video is flagged as 1080i/60. During playback the stream is then displayed properly as progressive 30 fps 1080 video, although your on screen display will say 1080i because it's reading the flag.

This is just how the spec works for 30fps material.

The PS3 is not outputting 1080p on NiN, it is outputting 1080i because this title is encoded as interlaced. The PS3 can only output the native format of the title.

Of course, I have Blackhawk Down, Ice Age and Talladega Nights and they all play at 1080p, as a matter of fact I just switched to BHD right now and this blu ray disc is playing at 1080p........tried Ice Age too and same result 1080p, only NIN displays at 1080i..... by the way I have software version 1.50 on the PS3 :confused:

This is not a problem.

In the Blu-ray spec, 1080p/30 video is flagged as 1080i/60. During playback the stream is then displayed properly as progressive 30 fps 1080 video, although your on screen display will say 1080i because it's reading the flag.

This is just how the spec works for 30fps material.

So couldn't this technically be considered an advantage to buying the HD DVD version? Seeing as how it would be flagged as 1080p on HD DVD? Or am I missing something?

Of course, I have Blackhawk Down, Ice Age and Talladega Nights and they all play at 1080p, as a matter of fact I just switched to BHD right now and this blu ray disc is playing at 1080p

That is because those titles are encoded as 1080p24 while NiN is encoded as 1080i60. Titles encoded as 1080p24 will output as 1080p60 from the PS3. Titles encoded as 1080i60 will output as 1080i60 from the PS3. Titles encoded as 720p24 will output as 72024 from the PS3.

The PS3 does not have any video post processing (deinterlacing/scaling) for HD, so it can only output what is on the disc.

This is not a problem.

In the Blu-ray spec, 1080p/30 video is flagged as 1080i/60. During playback the stream is then displayed properly as progressive 30 fps 1080 video, although your on screen display will say 1080i because it's reading the flag.

This is just how the spec works for 30fps material.

Thanks Jimby, this would make sense if all my discs displayed 1080i when played back, but so far only NIN displays this resolution, all the other are displayed as 1080p :confused:

So couldn't this technically be considered an advantage to buying the HD DVD version? Seeing as how it would be flagged as 1080p on HD DVD? Or am I missing something?

There is no difference in the display quality for 30fps material. The actual stream is 1080p/30. The only difference is how the Blu-ray spec wants the stream to be identified to the decoder.

Thanks Jimby, this would make sense if all my discs displayed 1080i when played back, but so far only NIN displays this resolution, all the other are displayed as 1080p :confused:

Because the NIN is probably the only 30fps content that you have played back. All US film content is 24 fps, which is flagged as progressive.

There is no difference in the display quality for 30fps material. The actual stream is 1080p/30. The only difference is how the Blu-ray spec wants the stream to be identified to the decoder.
It was discussed a while back that although it may be possible to encoded progressively with interlaced flags, this is not what was done in this release. It is truly encoded as interlaced.

No technically the BD has the advantage because it is a higher bitrate encode.

Also has on the fly camera switching on a few songs.

It was discussed a while back that although it may be possible to encoded progressively with interlaced flags, this is not what was done in this release. It is truly encoded as interlaced.


And how do you know this?

Problem is none of the BD players out there do 2-2 de-interlacing which is what you would want for this disc to display it correctly. Outboard video processors like the VP50, Gennum VXP and Realta based do. With the HD DVD you don't have to worry about this.

HD DVD is encoded as 24p for film titles.

No technically the BD has the advantage because it is a higher bitrate encode.Is this documented some where? I thought they used the same video encode just flagged differently. I'm format neutral but bought the HD DVD version for the reason Kris mentioned above.

The PS3 does not have any video post processing (deinterlacing/scaling) for HD, so it can only output what is on the disc.


Well it can scale HD to 480p if the source TV does not accept 1080i/p. So it is capable of scaling HD down to SD.

Its on the NIN FAQ. They used a higher encode because some of the scenes for the HD DVD had to be throttled back due to bandwidth issues. It was talked about many times around here.
I've read this several times as well.

I see it in the FAQ now thanks.

http://halo22.nin.com/hdfaq.html


M.

Things get kind of screwy when things aren't "pure" encodes. For instance, HD DVD encodes their 24p content with 30i flags. Are these 24p encodes?

This title was most likely encoded at 30fps with 60i flags. Is this a 30p encode?

Either way, 30p = 60i. Its only when doing 3:2 pull down that you get issues.

This is correct. The actual encode on the disc is 30p. The BD spec doesn't technically support 1080/30p, so the content is flagged as 1080/60i to make the stream spec-compliant.

Now the player has two choices at this point when it comes to decoding the stream:

1. The player can look at the actual encode, see that it is progressive, and decode appropriately.

2. The player can look at the flag, ignore the actual content encoding, and process according to the flag.

The better response would be option #1. If your player output is set to 1080/30p, then the player should decode this properly if the player looks at each progressive frame.

Keep in mind that we had NO CHOICE in how to flag this content for playback. The BD spec does not currently support 1080/30p, so our hands were tied.

But, to reiterate, the encode on the disc is 1080/30p.

(BTW, I am the production supervisor for all three versions of this release)

Regards,
Jim

Having viewed parts of the Blu-ray version, the result is pretty impressive but not quite "5 star" quality as blessed by HiDef Digest. I would give it a Tier 1 rating. Viewing on a 1080P LCD TV (LCDs tend to accentuate artefacts) there are still cases of "gentle" macroblocking and video noise on the main feature (i.e. not the obviously lower grade HDV footage).

Having said that, this must surely be the worst case real world scenario for HD encoding. Stroboscopic effects and dimly lit conditions through most of the feature make it a torture test. The VC-1 codec stands up extremely well here (with some tweaks specific to this release). Nice job jimby_99.

Another note: the 5.1 AC-3 track is very punchy. I can't wait to hear the TrueHD track unleashed (I'll have to wait for my next BD player for that).

Having viewed parts of the Blu-ray version, the result is pretty impressive but not quite "5 star" quality as blessed by HiDef Digest. I would give it a Tier 1 rating. Viewing on a 1080P LCD TV (LCDs tend to accentuate artefacts) there are still cases of "gentle" macroblocking and video noise on the main feature (i.e. not the obviously lower grade HDV footage).

Having said that, this must surely be the worst case real world scenario for HD encoding. Stroboscopic effects and dimly lit conditions through most of the feature make it a torture test. The VC-1 codec stands up extremely well here (with some tweaks specific to this release). Nice job jimby_99.

Another note: the 5.1 AC-3 track is very punchy. I can't wait to hear the TrueHD track unleashed (I'll have to wait for my next BD player for that).


This video was a huge challenge to encode. You've identified some of the challenges, here's a more complete list:

1. Strobe lights - completely kill interframe compression
2. Smoke and fog - encoding nightmare because of movement and subtle gradations
3. Dynamically moving cameras
4. Full 1080/30p resolution...the maximum the format supports (the film guys at least get to save some bits going at 24p)
5. Stage lighting only - no supplementals to knock contrast down or even exposure
6. Fast cuts
7. Camera gain noise during dark sequences


When we did the first round of encoding, we discovered sequences that simply could not be encoded properly no matter what the bit rate. We sent sequences of the show to Microsoft so their engineers could tweak their encoder specifically for this material.

Ultimately our compressionist (Nathan at Ascent Media) was responsible for the encode, and I must say that Rob and I were very pleased given the dynamic nature of the material. It's Rob's show and I think it looks great.

When we did the first round of encoding, we discovered sequences that simply could not be encoded properly no matter what the bit rate. We sent sequences of the show to Microsoft so their engineers could tweak their encoder specifically for this material.

Ultimately our compressionist was responsible for the encode, and I must say that Rob and I were very pleased given the dynamic nature of the material. It's Rob's show and I think it looks great.

Wow, that's cool info.

And yes, the disc looks fantastic.

i looked around but i can't find an answer, so i'll ask. is the blu-ray encode specific to the blu-ray format? specifically, is it encoded to use the extra bandwidth available on blu-ray or is it using the same lower bandwidth that hd-dvd uses (like most of warner's semi-lame cross platform ports)?

i've never been a NIN fan, but i'm thinking about getting this just to satiate my technical geeky side. i'd definitely buy this if it pushes the blu-ray spec to its full capacity.

i looked around but i can't find an answer, so i'll ask. is the blu-ray encode specific to the blu-ray format? specifically, is it encoded to use the extra bandwidth available on blu-ray or is it using the same lower bandwidth that hd-dvd uses (like most of warner's semi-lame cross platform ports)?

i've never been a NIN fan, but i'm thinking about getting this just to satiate my technical geeky side. i'd definitely buy this if it pushes the blu-ray spec to its full capacity.


The Blu-ray uses a slightly different encode because of the higher bandwidth available during peak bitrate sequences, but about 99% of the two encodes is the same. Any visual differences are likely to be exceedingly brief and difficult to see, unless you like to pixel-peep or are fond of other similar obsessive-compulsive behavior :)

Jim,

Thank you for your insight!

Just picked up one each of the HD-DVD and Blu-ray freebies from BestBuy. Can't wait to take the Pepsi Challenge tonight! :D

Jim,

Thank you for the info. You guys have put together a truly great disc here. Incredible!

looking forward to viewing this when it's finally on shelves here in Ontario...I'm told March 6 for BD by local retailers...although I have the DVD here...but won't watch that as my first experience with this title :)

jimby thanks for your info and congrats on making an amazing disc. I have a question: can you tell us the sampling rate of the TrueHD track? I assume it is 16bit/48khz as most have been so far?

It's 24/48, according to Rob's posts in the Spiral forum.

It's 24/48, according to Rob's posts in the Spiral forum.


Yep, and the surround track is mixed by Elliot Scheiner. Terrific mix.

For those of you who don't know who Elliot is, he's probably one the best surround sound music mixers around. He's got 5 Grammys, and he's mixed such artists as Beck, Steely Dan, Sting, Fleetwood Mac, etc.

He's also designed the DVD-A system in Acura cars (called the ELS system)

Just picked up one each of the HD-DVD and Blu-ray freebies from BestBuy. Can't wait to take the Pepsi Challenge tonight! :D

there is a hd dvd freebie too?

i have the br freebie and noticed the 1080i when i checked the tv.
came here and found an entire topic on it.

i wanted to rent the full disc but niether blockonline or netflix has it

The PS3 does not have any video post processing (deinterlacing/scaling) for HD, so it can only output what is on the disc.

That is, well, almost wrong! :D

Yes, the PS3 only outputs the disc native format for blu-ray playback, for now.

On the other hand, the PS3 sure has all the deinterlace and scaling function in the system as it currently plays a DVD 480i VOB (extension renamed to mpg) to 1080p HDMI output. It also plays a BAD flagged film source MPEG2 1080i TS (again extension renamed) clip in 1080p with the correct 3/2 pulldown applied. And it also does a STUNNING job of video deinterlace a real 60i 1080i VIDEO TS clip to the 1080p output.

No wonder they said it uses close to 200W power for video playback! :D

regards,

Li On

That is, well, almost wrong! :D

Yes, the PS3 only outputs the disc native format for blu-ray playback, for now.

On the other hand, the PS3 sure has all the deinterlace and scaling function in the system as it currently plays a DVD 480i VOB (extension renamed to mpg) to 1080p HDMI output. It also plays a BAD flagged film source MPEG2 1080i TS (again extension renamed) clip in 1080p with the correct 3/2 pulldown applied. And it also does a STUNNING job of video deinterlace a real 60i 1080i VIDEO TS clip to the 1080p output.

No wonder they said it uses close to 200W power for video playback! :D

regards,

Li On

If only it did 1080p/24... ;)

That is, well, almost wrong! :D

Yes, the PS3 only outputs the disc native format for blu-ray playback, for now.

On the other hand, the PS3 sure has all the deinterlace and scaling function in the system as it currently plays a DVD 480i VOB (extension renamed to mpg) to 1080p HDMI output. It also plays a BAD flagged film source MPEG2 1080i TS (again extension renamed) clip in 1080p with the correct 3/2 pulldown applied. And it also does a STUNNING job of video deinterlace a real 60i 1080i VIDEO TS clip to the 1080p output.

No wonder they said it uses close to 200W power for video playback! :D

regards,

Li On

That doesn't do many people any good as most people playback either standard DVD or BD discs. Too bad they couldn't apply any of this video processing wizardry to anything else.

That doesn't do many people any good as most people playback either standard DVD or BD discs. Too bad they couldn't apply any of this video processing wizardry to anything else.
It does seem strange, doesn't it, that a unit that can manage other, theoretically more complex tasks, with no less than 7 SPEs can't do this.

Do you think it is possible that Sony deliberately left this functionality off of the PS3 in order to not make the more expensive BR playback devices completely obsolete? I think, on the evidence, that it's certainly possible for them to enable full upscaling functionality, they simply have not done so...

It does seem strange, doesn't it, that a unit that can manage other, theoretically more complex tasks, with no less than 7 SPEs can't do this.

Do you think it is possible that Sony deliberately left this functionality off of the PS3 in order to not make the more expensive BR playback devices completely obsolete? I think, on the evidence, that it's certainly possible for them to enable full upscaling functionality, they simply have not done so...

I'm curious if we will see this down the line in the form of an update. The current scaling/proc work is software based right?

That is, well, almost wrong! :D

Yes, the PS3 only outputs the disc native format for blu-ray playback, for now.

On the other hand, the PS3 sure has all the deinterlace and scaling function in the system as it currently plays a DVD 480i VOB (extension renamed to mpg) to 1080p HDMI output. It also plays a BAD flagged film source MPEG2 1080i TS (again extension renamed) clip in 1080p with the correct 3/2 pulldown applied. And it also does a STUNNING job of video deinterlace a real 60i 1080i VIDEO TS clip to the 1080p output.

No wonder they said it uses close to 200W power for video playback! :D

regards,

Li On

What I really want is 1080p/24 to 720p/60 scaling so I can send that to my 768p LCD instead of relying on my TV's (less than perfect) 1080i handling. I see that it can convert 1080p AVC trailers available from PlayStation Store (I'm assuming these are 1080p/24, or are they 1080p/60?) to 720p/60 without a hitch, so I'm guessing it's just a matter of "flipping a switch" and throwing some QA cycles to it before they can enable it on BD as well....

one can only hope
gandalf :o

It also converts blu-ray movies from 1080p/i to 480p with no problem....so the lack of 720p support is a bit odd.