I see this more on NEC's than other projectors...at least I think I do.

When I run 1080i, my amplitude is at 76, if I run 720P, my aplitute is at 96-100 and I still can't get a pic nearly as big as I do with 1080i....is it dangerous for me to tweak higher bandwidth signals to fill the same space in the raster?

Ben

How do you wany to tweak the raster width?
If it is the pot be careful with that. Check the volt and make sure it is within the spec.
If you have HTPC then using a porches (PowerStrip) is a good way. I did that for years with 960p and never had issues. Obviously you can tweak the throw distance but raster becomes too small IMO. This is one of my major complain about XG as why the raster width cannot (can be but..) be the same width as higher resolution by the POT.

I see this more on NEC's than other projectors...at least I think I do.

When I run 1080i, my amplitude is at 76, if I run 720P, my aplitute is at 96-100 and I still can't get a pic nearly as big as I do with 1080i....is it dangerous for me to tweak higher bandwidth signals to fill the same space in the raster?

Ben

720p is a higher frequency, and the higher the freq, the smaller the raster...that's why when doing initial set-up you use the highest freq input.
As long as you've calibrated H-size (VR 5301 & 5302) everything will be OK.
If you haven't cal'ed them, then apply a video signal, adjust VR5301 so that voltage on Pin#1 of IC5306 is 4.5vdc (+/- .05) with H-amplitude set to max.
Then adjust VR5302 so TP5302 is 7.5vdc (+/- .1) again H-amp is at max.
I usually bring H-amplitude up in steps, checking both voltage points as I go, then if they are going high, I can decrease the adjustments without overvoltaging.

bottom line question, is it even posssible to get the same size picture from 720/960p as I et with 1080i??

Ben

Not without tweaking the porches externally.

bottom line question, is it even posssible to get the same size picture from 720/960p as I et with 1080i??

Ben

Yes, but you really need to set it up that way from the start, i.e. adjust your rasters etc at 720P to get the required size. Then for 1080i (which will now be to big) you would need to dial the size back down.

Yes, but you really need to set it up that way from the start, i.e. adjust your rasters etc at 720P to get the required size. Then for 1080i (which will now be to big) you would need to dial the size back down.

And that means small raster usage. The problem stems from very nec's conservative setup spec. But that is a choice and some say going with Nec's throw distance is beneficial in some other ways. I even figured at 7% less that nec's throw width amp is not nearly enough for anything over 540.

And that means small raster usage.

No it doesn't, you still use all the tube face.
At 720p your throw is such that the whole tube face is being used...at 1080i it's no different, your still using the same tube area (you have to in order to fill the screen) you have just decreased H & V amplitude.
However if your image area within the raster is varying, that's a whole different story, and one that has to do with source porch settings, not the pj.

Sigh...there's nothing "wrong" with NECs in this regard. All projectors behave the same way as the H freq goes up.

I'd set a G70 up in exactly the same spot as my XG LC. Same Tubes, same C elements, same lenses.

Ignore the NEC specs and put the PJ in the right spot. End of story.

However if your image area within the raster is varying, that's a whole different story, and one that has to do with source porch settings, not the pj.

How that would be the case when I have a fixed size screen?
I already mentioned the porch setting as a viable option but needs external device such as HTPC with psrtip.

Nec doesn't use the "whole tube face" with 720, 960p even at amp=100%.

How that would be the case when I have a fixed size screen?

Exactly, your screen size is fixed...the source frequency changes, which changes the amplitude of that signal, making the image smaller or larger, which also makes the raster smaller or larger...you then have different memory slots with adjusted H & V amplitude settings that keep the tube face filled.
Regardless of input resolution, your tube face should stay filled, and when it is, so should your fixed screen.
It works this way with all pj's

Nec doesn't use the "whole tube face" with 720, 960p even at amp=100%.


All five of my NEC's have used the whole Horizontal area...

Edit, out a sentence that's not worded correctly...what I should have said was:
If your not using the whole tube face at 100%, then your H-amplitude would seem to be out of adjustment, because every XG I've ever cal'ed could fill it's tube face...and then some!

I use the whole tube face width at about 75% which throws an image about 2 inches bigger than my screen.
If you can't get enough amplitude to fill the tube face, have you checked the test points in my above post?

I always thought the NEC's couldn't use the entire tubeface...and that it was risky to do so. Is that not the case? I remember Doug Baisey warning against this sometime back.

Ben

I use the whole tube face width at about 75% which throws an image about 2 inches bigger than my screen.
If you can't get enough amplitude to fill the tube face, have you checked the test points in my above post?

Kenny last time I checked my pot was 3.9 out of box (bought new) so I elevated it to 4.5 still it wont fill the face plate with 720 or 960p. There is going to be about 3/4" on each side which is too much IMO and with my room I just cannot place the PJ so deep in the room..
I gave up on 720&960p when stoped using the PC with altered porches. Now I am using 1080i@60 Hz for both DVD and HD and it works fine.

I always thought the NEC's couldn't use the entire tubeface...and that it was risky to do so. Is that not the case? I remember Doug Baisey warning against this sometime back.

Ben

Doug was probably warning about raster being larger than the tube face...if your raster area is to large it can crack the tube because the gun is directing energy off the tube face.
You can safely enlarge raster area so that the raster corners are within 1/8" of the edge...there are some who actually let the raster spill out over the tube face edge (there's not a lot of energy in the raster itself) and adjust so the IMAGE is out near the edge, this would get the pj closer to the screen, and brighter. However this is ONLY for those who understand this whole process. If you were to start increasing Brightness/ Contrast for calibration or test purposes, you could crack a tube unless you decrease raster amplitude while testing.

wouldn't this force huge keystone values?

wouldn't this force huge keystone values?

I can't see why, Keystone would be more a function of lense flapping and pj position with relationship to the screen...about the only thing a larger image will effect is light output, a larger image means more tube area is used, which gives more light output. Also focus will not be quite as sharp out on the edges.

I've never had any trouble filling the tube face on an XG. I prefer 1080i 72 or 96hz, but 720p 75hz was no problem.

You need to be cautious with a PG as the horizontal deflection circuitry is not very robust, but if you add a fan to the output transistor heatsink, and set the width pot to spec it will be fine, even pushed quite hard.

XG's are more robust.

However with any 90 deg deflection tube (G70 included), if you go to extremes the beam can hit the neck, and it's all over red rover.

Everyone is right above:
There is a concern when setting the raster. If you hit a no signal condition it will usually go to the video or pal signal. If you dont have memory built to hold it off it can be a problem.
Its 15.75 kHz and wide.

Using the 'expanded raster' this is something that you need to check, I have seen cracked tubes replaced only to find at first start up the raster is way to big and its panic time getting it reduced. If your counting on memory to keep it safely in check you live in a perfect world.

Some of this is not knowing where the raster will be after replacing the tube and the magnetics and needs to be watched closely at first power up.

On the Panasonic tubes there is a chance of hitting the neck also esp if you have a V Drive going flakey, it takes less time then you can correct for to crack the tube neck. In short its instant. I have a few pictures somewhere that I did post where it toasted the tube neck tape in a second, cracked then discharged into the deflection yoke. LC unit and a devastating repair. This could have been prevented using common sense.

I find to be safe keep it centered and off the edge of the tube. Raster and active image are two separate things. Raster is lower energy then the active but if you get it to reflect on the thin part of the tube (off the tube face) it can crack the bell.

If you have 'warm up' mode enabled this is low energy using a large raster. Be careful to have raster centered. Phase needs to be corrected regardless of signal.

THe NEC uses a conservative throw spec but also allows one heck of a image with total control.

You choose what you want to use and what you can afford to repair. Im not totally against the expanded raster but you need to use it safely. Doug

Everyone is right above:
There is a concern when setting the raster. If you hit a no signal condition it will usually go to the video or pal signal. If you dont have memory built to hold it off it can be a problem.
Its 15.75 kHz and wide.

Using the 'expanded raster' this is something that you need to check, I have seen cracked tubes replaced only to find at first start up the raster is way to big and its panic time getting it reduced. If your counting on memory to keep it safely in check you live in a perfect world.

Some of this is not knowing where the raster will be after replacing the tube and the magnetics and needs to be watched closely at first power up.

On the Panasonic tubes there is a chance of hitting the neck also esp if you have a V Drive going flakey, it takes less time then you can correct for to crack the tube neck. In short its instant. I have a few pictures somewhere that I did post where it toasted the tube neck tape in a second, cracked then discharged into the deflection yoke. LC unit and a devastating repair. This could have been prevented using common sense.

I find to be safe keep it centered and off the edge of the tube. Raster and active image are two separate things. Raster is lower energy then the active but if you get it to reflect on the thin part of the tube (off the tube face) it can crack the bell.

If you have 'warm up' mode enabled this is low energy using a large raster. Be careful to have raster centered. Phase needs to be corrected regardless of signal.

THe NEC uses a conservative throw spec but also allows one heck of a image with total control.

You choose what you want to use and what you can afford to repair. Im not totally against the expanded raster but you need to use it safely. Doug


OK...there's something I hadn't thought of...so what your saying is the "no signal" condition needs it's own memory slot to keep raster within the tube face.
Very important, it makes good sense, and I guess I'm pretty lucky, I've been using expanded raster all along, and never setup this memory slot...scary...

Kenny,
If you remove the signal what does it go to? If its video set up a memory for it, doesnt need to be perfect but check first looking in the tube face. Doug

Some of this will be how you have things selected in the settings menu. Remember raster centering is global. Also if no entry you cant store to it.

Kenny,
If you remove the signal what does it go to? If its video set up a memory for it, doesnt need to be perfect but check first looking in the tube face. Doug

Some of this will be how you have things selected in the settings menu. Remember raster centering is global. Also if no entry you cant store to it.


You can be sure I'll do it...just as soon as I get the system back up and running.

How close to the screen are you Kenny?

At 1.3x my raster is fine under no signal.

There's using the raster, and then there's abuse. I think 1.3x is fine.

Ben,

for a wider raster it is good advice not to try and max out with 720p, this is true also for other Pj's like the Barco 1209s or the Sony 1292.
I doubt you can maximize raster with a PG and a standard 720p timing and NOT blow up something at least in the long (but most probable short) run.

The PG's are still better off with a scaler or HTPC that can adjust porches for 1080p and 720p but as you say you are fine with 1080i - so if in doubt keep that rez.

Oliver

I always thought the NEC's couldn't use the entire tubeface...and that it was risky to do so. Is that not the case? I remember Doug Baisey warning against this sometime back.
Ben, when I had my XG75 some years ago, I was able to use as much phosphor width on the NEC as I normally do on my Barco's. The difference however was that in order to do this and keep the H-DEFL voltage at the right spot (ie: not tweak the pot), I had to reduce my porches like crazy.

I think I may even still have the 1440x720p/71.928 powerstrip timings scribbled down somewhere in that XG binder I gave ya... :)

Kal

How close to the screen are you Kenny?

At 1.3x my raster is fine under no signal.

There's using the raster, and then there's abuse. I think 1.3x is fine.

That is (1.3x width) exactly where I am still not enough amp with 960p unless going porches route by PC.

Oh, well, you have to reduce the porches. That's a given.

Oh, well, you have to reduce the porches. That's a given.

You guys, "the modders" need to come up with a transistor mod to remedy this issue. I am going to have hard time to use a stand alone hi def dvd player with 1080p output. :)

How close to the screen are you Kenny?

At 1.3x my raster is fine under no signal.

There's using the raster, and then there's abuse. I think 1.3x is fine.

Using a 83" width screen, my throw is 119"...not sure exactly what abuse might consist of. If you abuse the raster, you've abused the pj and broken a tube.
As long as your careful not to overshoot the tube's face there is no abuse...BUT you have to understand all frequencies and situations.

Abuse is running a 1.2x throw and big porches and having to push it to +100% width and then tweak the pot.

To me 1.3x is normal.

Abuse is running a 1.2x throw and big porches and having to push it to +100% width and then tweak the pot.

To me 1.3x is normal.

I think the fact is, if you don't use a HTPC, or certain scalers, you can't adjust the porches anyway...if your planning to use HD sources with a HDMI transcoder then there's no way around it...you MUST setup your throw for the highest freq the pj will see, if it's 1080p then set the throw back far enough to fill the screen. If you don't then it's the setup person's own fault.
I believe in order to fill a screen with 1080p, and not modify the porch settings throw will be closer to 1.4 or 1.5X
The max input on pin #1 of IC5306 is 5vdc,(factory setting is 10% below that) anyone who's going to tweek VR5301 to overload that IC has no clue and shouldn't be touching these intruments!!! ABUSER!!! ABUSER!!! :p

Kenny last time I checked my pot was 3.9 out of box (bought new) so I elevated it to 4.5 still it wont fill the face plate with 720 or 960p. There is going to be about 3/4" on each side which is too much IMO and with my room I just cannot place the PJ so deep in the room..
I gave up on 720&960p when stoped using the PC with altered porches. Now I am using 1080i@60 Hz for both DVD and HD and it works fine.



By the way, I see you mention checking one of the test points, did you also check the other?

When I eventually get my PG9 retubed, I'll want to set it up at max for 1280x1024 4:3, mostly it would be run at 720p or 1080i (both obv. 16:9), or upscaled SDTV to 480p in 4:3. Most of this would be at 60hz, unless the 360 suddenly develops an ability for 48 or 72hz 1080i or something via VGA. I'm not going to try and totally max out my raster because I don't trust I'm going to be that great at setting it up, since it'll be my first working projector setup for real usage.

All this talk of adjusting the raster for usage of the tube face, and throw distances.. except for the few of you speaking of tweaking pots, this is all changes made from the service menus, correct?

What would be a recommended safe raster size and then image size to not have to worry about having no signal or some strange signal pop a tube?

Also when you are speaking of 1.2x or 1.3x throw, you are referring to x = screen width, correct? Is this diagonal or horizontal? I'd like to be able to get this all in perspective. :)

I think the fact is, if you don't use a HTPC, or certain scalers, you can't adjust the porches anyway...if your planning to use HD sources with a HDMI transcoder then there's no way around it...you MUST setup your throw for the highest freq the pj will see, if it's 1080p then set the throw back far enough to fill the screen. If you don't then it's the setup person's own fault.
I believe in order to fill a screen with 1080p, and not modify the porch settings throw will be closer to 1.4 or 1.5X
The max input on pin #1 of IC5306 is 5vdc,(factory setting is 10% below that) anyone who's going to tweek VR5301 to overload that IC has no clue and shouldn't be touching these intruments!!! ABUSER!!! ABUSER!!! :p

Agree. Last night I checked my volt it read 3.9 on both pots which I thought I had them on 4.5 some 5 years ago, i guess not. I just left them as. Don't need wider raster as I am running only 1080i now.

I will buy a processor hopefully soon to tweak both gamma and porches.

Also when you are speaking of 1.2x or 1.3x throw, you are referring to x = screen width, correct? Is this diagonal or horizontal? I'd like to be able to get this all in perspective. :)

Max out the amp setting then with green tube raster centered situate the nec so that you get about 5~10% overscan with highest resolution. That is your throw.
Reduce the amp to fill the screen.

Bio,
The PG uses 1.8V spec using the video input at 100% amplitude. Check that first. Doug

Screen width, not diag. The projectors use different lenses and needs to be factored. You have HD145 I believe

Agree. Last night I checked my volt it read 3.9 on both pots which I thought I had them on 4.5 some 5 years ago, i guess not. I just left them as. Don't need wider raster as I am running only 1080i now.

I will buy a processor hopefully soon to tweak both gamma and porches.




I think you have found your problem...if in fact both test points are at 3.9vdc.
TP5302 should be at 7.5! and with the voltage input to IC5306 also low, if you adjust them correctly there's no reason you can't get max raster.
I have had a Lumagen HDP pro, and find the picture much cleaner with Mile's MP-5...the lumagen is flexible, but I can't go back to a dirty image!

Yes I did realize that the point V's were lower than expected. I thought I had them up to spec but apparently not. Oh well..
I am thinking about VP-50 to do both scaling and gamma but I need a HDMI card first off. Moome's DVI did not work with my XG. I tried both one before the ROM update and one after.

Yes I did realize that the point V's were lower than expected. I thought I had them up to spec but apparently not. Oh well..
I am thinking about VP-50 to do both scaling and gamma but I need a HDMI card first off. Moome's DVI did not work with my XG. I tried both one before the ROM update and one after.


Great I just bought one of his cards, I hadn't planned to use it for several more months, as I need to update my processor with HDMI switching and whatever format wins this BS format war...I have been told this one was working with his XG, I suppose I'll find out.

My Moome ISS card works fine.

Mine (moome ISS HDMI card) is going back (I really need to get it sent off, things keep happening tho) due to a minor glitch.. I could fix it myself but I'd rather him do it and not have to worry about breaking it if I screw up. He's been great to deal with any more than happy to take care of me. Great picture, on both component and HDMI. HDCP works at least with the cable box, only thing I currently have to test it with.

What was wrong?

I knocked a cap off mine sliding it in, as it is too close to the edge, and it hits the rail - but I soldered on another and it's fine.

On mine one of the resistors that connects to the card select signal on the ISS connector wasn't quite soldered right, so there isn't any continuity and the card always thinks its on. It visually looks ok but its not quite connected.