Chicago, IL - OTA [Text View] - Page 11

EGV_bill

08-02-08, 12:17 AM

sebenste

08-02-08, 12:27 AM

If anything I said came off as a whine for free equipment or free service and thus inspired Sebenste's joke, I do apologize.

But if someone can tell me how to get in touch with somebody who would do a roof climb at a reasonable rate (to be paid for by me, not by a fundraiser), I would appreciate the pointer.* Thank you.* I live near the northern city limit, near the Lincolnwood line.* Just taking that loose run of RG6 that's already there and attaching it to our old antenna would surely help.

Hi Dattier,

No, it didn't come off as whiny, but I actually (in my crazy way) sympathize with your plight (and I apologize if I came off rude/smug). What kind of a roof do you have? Steep slope? Just curious...

sebenste

08-02-08, 01:10 AM

Re-connect 1970's rooftop antenna or buy new indoor antenna -
Hi - first post - I just closed on a house in Elk Grove Village. I got an HDTV with the house and wanted to try to just go with an antenna and get OTA HD. The house was built in the late 70's and has a rooftop antenna, but it doesn't look like it is connected anymore. I had a rabbit ears (unamplified, and with no uhf loop) and I connected it to the TV and ran autoscan. I only pulled in 3 DTV stations, and the strength on all was very poor. I could only get a picture on PBS and that was intermittent.

Per Antennaweb, I'm in the blue and purple range, but per TVFOOL, I should be fine with a very small antenna. With Antennaweb, it says that if I were only a block away in several directions, that I would be fine (yellow), so I'd love to understand what they have as blocking my address that isn't an issue a block away.

I've got about a two week window to try to make OTA work before my wife will insist that I get something that works (cable or satellite).

So - my question is - should I pay the money to re-connect the 1970's vintage antenna, or go to radio shack (or somewhere else) to just buy a small indoor antenna (again, with the wife, if it goes inside it will have to be small enough to try to hide behind the TV or in the cabinet if possible)... I don't know if the improved technology beats having a large outdoor (but 30 year old) antenna.. Thanks for any guidance you have.

Hi Bill,

Welcome to the forum! I had half a page answer, and Vista blew it away. Let's try again...

I have a friend who lives in Elk Grove, and I can confirm: an indoor antenna from there won't cut it; it either has to be a large antenna in the attic, or a medium-sized one or larger on the roof. TV Fool and Antennaweb use computer models that are decent, but don't take into account nuances such as other buildings and trees. Always pick the "worst case scenario" or even a size larger when using those two, and you'll likely be OK. In any case...

Given that the cable isn't connected (likely because it got so old it broke off), I suspect the antenna is a complete loss. Even if it isn't a complete loss, it's almost there. You are better off:

1. Replacing that antenna with a Winegard HD7082P, which would serve you well for many years, available up the road at Tri-State Electronics:

https://www.tselectronic.com/winegard/hd7082.html

(And any accessories if you need to replace the tripod, mast, U-bolts)

2. Getting cable or satellite.

The second option is easiest, but if you're out to save money and willing to head to the roof, you'll do well getting that antenna above. I hope this helps!

dattier

08-02-08, 01:16 AM

What kind of a roof do you have? Steep slope?It's the typical slope for a two-story house (looks like just under half a radian), and AFAIK no roofer has ever slid off it.

sebenste

08-11-08, 11:18 AM

OK, what we were talking about before the great 8/10/08 AVS Database Meltdown was:

WBBM - is there an open channel on UHF for it? Trip in VA thought 30 and 39 were doable. I countered that 39 was taken by WWME-LD, and that Weigel wouldn't like that too much. It's headed for 12, so this is just a "what if" discussion...

Antenna questions out in the suburbs...

And do preamps improve S/N ratio, or more than that?

Have at it...

goaliebob99

08-11-08, 11:41 AM

Wait I thought WBBM was going to 12.... Also Something is wrong with WLS's Audio Encoders as this morning the sound keeps dropping with my HR 20-700 and its happening on both ota and satellite feeds.

I really wish there was a way that we could push WBBM to 12 sooner. I'm at the point where I can care less about analoge. Shut em all down now :D.

Trip in VA

08-11-08, 01:14 PM

Yeah, I had done a quick analysis of available UHF channels in Chicago. Of the 5 available, the clearest looked to be 30 and 39.

I had asked if WWME-LD was licensed as LD (as the call sign implies) or as Class A. If it was an LD, WWME-LD could be bumped for a full-service station. Falcon_77, I think, had replied, but I don't remember what he said.

And yes, WBBM-DT is moving to 12 next year, just that we were trying to figure out if there was anywhere else for them to move, in case channel 12 also didn't work out for them. (Or 7 for WLS-DT)

- Trip

swiat

08-11-08, 03:35 PM

Why are we splitting hairs over available channels by not considering adjacent channels 200 miles away when locally channels 50 and 51 (WXFT and WPWR) will both be lit up from the same city running full power stations in Feb '09?

So, what about 24 as an open candidate? Nearest is Grand Rapids. (7, 19, and 45 will also in both CHI and GDR in Feb.)

WMEU-LP could go there... much better than 46 which has full power stations in MIL and SB on the SAME channel.

Falcon_77

08-11-08, 03:43 PM

I had asked if WWME-LD was licensed as LD (as the call sign implies) or as Class A. If it was an LD, WWME-LD could be bumped for a full-service station. Falcon_77, I think, had replied, but I don't remember what he said.

It would be a "DC" if it is a Class A DTV station, as best as I can tell, but it is shown as an "LD" service, so it probably can get bumped.

I also posted some thoughts about attic performance of VHF vs. UHF and the relative perils of 7 vs. 13 when using UHF antennas for upper VHF.

12 will retain some of the VHF problems, but it should be night and day vs. 3, even at only 8kW.

Shutting off analog now would be nice for some of us, but for analog users, February will be here awfully soon.

Rammitinski

08-11-08, 03:52 PM

Oh, Lord - just what we need - another thread on this forum of endless speculation and pointless talk over something that most likely will never happen - I mean the WBBM changing their assignment thing.

How about if somebody actually ever hears something about that possibly happening, then we start talking about it?

sebenste

08-11-08, 06:07 PM

Oh, Lord - just what we need - another thread on this forum of endless speculation and pointless talk over something that most likely will never happen -

I wholeheartedly agree, I think we should talk about the Cubs winning a World Series instead of the Sox! ;):D:D

Seriously, though, I know we've been down the WBBM road before, but there is ONE thing that may change WLS' and WBBM's minds down the road: mobile TV. THAT is explicitly designed for UHF reception, and I bet ABC and CBS don't want to be left out in the cold.

Rammitinski

08-11-08, 07:48 PM

Home field advantage to the AL team though, and we know how the season series between the two teams went this year, right?

Seriously, I'll be surprised if the Sox even win their division. Remember, I picked them to be fighting to stay out of last place this year, and my basic analysis hasn't changed much at all. Just as I predicted, they just don't have the starting pitching to compete, not after they traded Garland. I had a very strong feeling that Contreras was going to be a non-factor this year. He was terrible last year. And though the two young guys they got in there are good, they have no experience under pressure. Buehrle hasn't been more than a 500% pitcher for the last few years, and Vasquez always falls completely apart by the 5th inning. Now, their best reliever is out, too - Linebrink. And Dotel just plain sucks more than half the time.

Sure, Quentin and Ramirez have been unexpected surprises, but you have to have at least three very good, consistent, experienced starting pitchers to go all the way. At least two, and they don't even have that.

Plus, outside of maybe Cabrera, everyone else is still more concerned with jacking the ball out of the ballpark than actually getting on base or moving runners along.

However, I could've never predicted that nobody else but them and Minnesota would be the only teams that even care a rat's arse about winning the division. But now that Minnesota has a healthy Liriano back, I actually consider them the favorite.

They Sox still don't have what it takes to get them to the World Series, though, I don't think. They're no match for teams such as California or Tampa Bay this year. They can't even beat Minnesota when they play them, for crissakes. Maybe if they make some kind of blockbuster trade or something - but that's never been Williams' or Reinsdorf's MO. They like to stock up with has-beens well past their prime and/or players that had one or two good early seasons, but have totally sucked since - bargain basement players. In other words - THEY'RE TOO CHEAP.

gonefishin

08-11-08, 10:30 PM

sebenste

08-12-08, 12:51 AM

Home field advantage to the AL team though, and we know how the season series between the two teams went this year, right?

Seriously, I'll be surprised if the Sox even win their division. Remember, I picked them to be fighting to stay out of last place this year, and my basic analysis hasn't changed much at all. Just as I predicted, they just don't have the starting pitching to compete, not after they traded Garland. I had a very strong feeling that Contreras was going to be a non-factor this year. He was terrible last year. And though the two young guys they got in there are good, they have no experience under pressure. Buehrle hasn't been more than a 500% pitcher for the last few years, and Vasquez always falls completely apart by the 5th inning. Now, their best reliever is out, too - Linebrink. And Dotel just plain sucks more than half the time.

Sure, Quentin and Ramirez have been unexpected surprises, but you have to have at least three very good, consistent, experienced starting pitchers to go all the way. At least two, and they don't even have that.

Plus, outside of maybe Cabrera, everyone else is still more concerned with jacking the ball out of the ballpark than actually getting on base or moving runners along.

However, I could've never predicted that nobody else but them and Minnesota would be the only teams that even care a rat's arse about winning the division. The fact that Minnesota has played just as well as the Sox up yo this point without even one, good starting pitcher tells you a lot about the Sox. Now that they have a healthy Liriano back, I actually consider them the favorite.

They still don't have what it takes to get them to the WS, though, I don't think. They're no match for teams such as California this year. They can't even beat Minnesota when they play them, for crissakes. Maybe if they make some kind of blockbuster trade or something - but that's never been Williams' or Reinsdorf's MO. They like to stock up with has-beens well past their prime and/or players that had one or two good early seasons, but have totally sucked since. In other words - THEY'RE TOO CHEAP.

Sounds like a former hockey owner in town. ;)

OK, I know this is OT, but I'll say this: I definitely remember you, in my utter astonishment, ripping on your beloved White Sox. But you know what...the Cards were supposed to be bottom feeders, too...and look at them.
They can make the playoffs. But who knows? Sometimes a team gets fired up, they win a division, and they get on a roll that no one can stop.

To bring this OT...PLEASE, Fox, or somebody...if both teams get in the WS or at least the divisional playoffs...carry them OTA!

sebenste

08-12-08, 12:52 AM

Well...everything still looks pretty good after moving the preamp. I had it right near the VHF antenna, but had problems in the morning/night with my UHF channels. So I moved it after the combiner.

Now the UHF channels are good all day and I get some minor break-up with the low VHF antenna on CH.2. I'll deal with this until I change the antenna to a Hi VHF next year.

Any suggestions on something that has good range, in attic? I could fit a med/large antenna like I have now up there...but then I don't have much room for maneuvering it.

thanks,
dan

Hi Dan,

If the only problem you are having with is 2, then just keep it as is. Seriously,
WBBM will break up in most areas, if you can get them, due to impulse noise. Not a doggone thing you can do to change that. If Comcast, on their 100' TV tower in Chicago couldn't get WBBM-DT due to impulse noise with storms anywhere near Chicago, you won't do better.

Rammitinski

08-12-08, 01:28 AM

OK, I know this is OT, but I'll say this: I definitely remember you, in my utter astonishment, ripping on your beloved White Sox. But you know what...the Cards were supposed to be bottom feeders, too...and look at them.
They can make the playoffs. But who knows? Sometimes a team gets fired up, they win a division, and they get on a roll that no one can stop.The Cubs will win their division. They've clearly had the best team in the NL right from the start, and still do. Injuries don't hurt them much because of their depth (which no one in the NL has like them).

The Cards have played way over their heads as far as their pitching, and that's why they are now in third where they belong. But a healthy Pujols always makes them a contending team. He's by far the best player in the NL (nobody comes close), and he can carry any team a lot further than they would go without someone like him.

I picked Mil. as the Cubs' main contender in that division, and even though I'm right, they still are not good enough to ever overtake the Cubs.

(I see the Twins are back in first now :rolleyes: - only a matter of time before it's for good. They've had a better record than the Sox for the last couple of months anyway.)

And what's this about the usually passive, easy-going Cub fans these days? 3 of them are in jail for kicking out a Huntley Sox fan's eye out (literally - he lost it) with a steel-toed boot in some bar (the poor guy has a family and needs to hold a fund-raiser to pay his medical bills - it was in the local paper), and I just saw tonight that 2 are on trial for breaking a Brewers fan's jaw in Milwaukee. You guys try and pull that crap in Sox park in the series if it happens, and I promise you (not you, personally) that Sox fans will make you regret the day you were born.

Of course, you already know that - that's why you didn't dare try doing it when we played each other there already this year. And we're mean and tough enough to know to drag it out - it won't be anything swift. Ain't no yuppie boys we're afraid of over there. ;)

DJ Matt

08-12-08, 03:52 AM

When is WGN going to fix their Cubs and Sox HD broadcasts? Everytime there is fast motion or they are switching cameras you can notice pixelation.

tvropro

08-12-08, 07:23 AM

When is WGN going to fix their Cubs and Sox HD broadcasts? Everytime there is fast motion or they are switching cameras you can notice pixelation.

It's probably due to not enough bandwidth. This is common with digital and fast moving action.

tvropro

08-12-08, 07:34 AM

Hi Dan,

If the only problem you are having with is 2, then just keep it as is. Seriously,
WBBM will break up in most areas, if you can get them, due to impulse noise. Not a doggone thing you can do to change that. If Comcast, on their 100' TV tower in Chicago couldn't get WBBM-DT due to impulse noise with storms anywhere near Chicago, you won't do better.

I don't get affected by impulse noise or have any breakup on WBBM digital 3. My antenna is 30 feet high outside and Im approx 9 miles as the crow flies from the Hancock. Comcast having a tower 100 feet high could be causing it's own problems since there more apt to out of town co channel interference at that height. Comcast could also be getting EMI/RFI interference being generated inside there plant.

sebenste

08-12-08, 10:39 AM

I don't get affected by impulse noise or have any breakup on WBBM digital 3. My antenna is 30 feet high outside and Im approx 9 miles as the crow flies from the Hancock. Comcast having a tower 100 feet high could be causing it's own problems since there more apt to out of town co channel interference at that height. Comcast could also be getting EMI/RFI interference being generated inside there plant.

While thats true, Comcast only got breakups during storms. Do you get any when a storm is overhead or nearby (not that you should watch TV during a storm, as you shouldn't)...

sebenste

08-12-08, 10:50 AM

The Cubs will win their division. They've clearly had the best team in the NL right from the start, and still do. Injuries don't hurt them much because of their depth (which no one in the NL has like them).

Speaking of people getting angry at people (referring to your comments below), watch out for Sox fans the next time you go to Comisk, er, The Cell, for saying what you just said! :D Brutal honesty about the Cubs is not the hallmarks of a true Sox fan! ;):D

The Cards have played way over their heads as far as their pitching, and that's why they are now in third where they belong. But a healthy Pujols always makes them a contending team. He's by far the best player in the NL (nobody comes close), and he can carry any team a lot further than they would go without someone like him.
That'll do it. One man cannot carry a team, but he can make them better than expected.

I picked Mil. as the Cubs' main contender in that division, and even though I'm right, they still are not good enough to ever overtake the Cubs.
The Cubs still cannot let up though. Milwaukee "wants it", and if the Cubs have a bad series or two, they'll be right there with them.

(I see the Twins are back in first now :rolleyes: - only a matter of time before it's for good. They've had a better record than the Sox for the last couple of months anyway.)

Well, I hope not. As much as I want to see the Sox normally go down, this year, I want a crosstown classic World Series. OK, and besides that, what's to like about the Twinkies? :D

And what's this about the usually passive, easy-going Cub fans these days? 3 of them are in jail for kicking out a Huntley Sox fan's eye out (literally - he lost it) with a steel-toed boot in some bar (the poor guy has a family and needs to hold a fund-raiser to pay his medical bills - it was in the local paper), and I just saw tonight that 2 are on trial for breaking a Brewers fan's jaw in Milwaukee. You guys try and pull that crap in Sox park in the series if it happens, and I promise you (not you, personally) that Sox fans will make you regret the day you were born.

Of course, you already know that - that's why you didn't dare try doing it when we played each other there already this year. And we're mean and tough enough to know to drag it out - it won't be anything swift. Ain't no yuppie boys we're afraid of over there. ;)

LOL!...or not. Yeah, that's something I'm absolutely not proud of as a Cubs fan. In all honesty though, both teams have those thugs---and I detest them both. We can verbal spar all we want, but that is completely uncalled for, no matter what baseball team you root for. This isn't World Cup Soccer, for cryin' out loud.

On the other hand, one thing Cubs and Sox fans can completely agree on: WGN needs to get new encoders for their 1080i signal, so that they can look as good as CBS' 1080i, with very little macroblocking. HVS said the backhaul bitrate can be up to a gigabit per second, IIRC---therefore, there is NO excuse, even with one subchannel, that they should look like that. You and I both know what it could be; we saw the Bears' preseason at Soldier Field and it was jaw dropping, even with Weather Plus humming away at 4 mb/sec.

I know the WGN engineers can't comment on the board, but if they could, I know they'd say..."OK, bud, can you pony up a mil for some new ones?" I'm sure they'd love to replace the ones they have, too.

Rammitinski

08-12-08, 02:53 PM

The Cubs still cannot let up though. Milwaukee "wants it", and if the Cubs have a bad series or two, they'll be right there with them.The Brewers always know there's the Wild Card. And they should get there through that, considering how lame the other two divisions are. Just like the Cards with Pujols, who is the best position player, any team with a healthy starting pitcher the likes of CC Sabathia in that (inferior) league has to be a favorite. As long as the rest of the team is pretty good, I mean. The guy's the reigning Cy Young winner in the AL, and that's a pretty big feat - the AL's best starters don't seem to be so up and down every year like they are in the NL - they are just consistenly excellent, and stack up the wins no matter how the rest of their team is faring as a whole. That was really the coup of the century there for them to be able to get CC (the Harden deal doesn't even compare, because that's basically just another Wood/Pryor scenario - his arm could]- no, will go yet again at any given moment. He's made of glass. But you've got Zambrano and Dempster too, so no need to fret). Now, if they're really smart, the Brewers will do everything they can humanly do to sign him for next year. Unfortunately, being Milwaukee, I don't think that's too promising (YOU should be glad, though).

swiat

08-12-08, 03:07 PM

The Brewers always know there's the Wild Card. And they should get there through that. Any team with the likes of Sabathia in that (inferior) league has to be a favorite.

NL= inferior? Then how come players like Frank Thomas and Edgar Martinez would have been washed up 5-10 years earlier compared to their AL days if they would have been in the NL and had to field a position? Remember, the AL didn't start that stupid DH (which they incidentally don't need for run production anymore) until the 70s. That's not baseball. It's 45 mins - 1 hr more each game of swing for the fences boredom with little strategy.

BTW, for the technical part... I can count 5 more MIL games on 58-2 (WMLW) and 1 more on 6-1 (WITI) that will be available to those of us that can spin the antenna to the north. Nice to watch pre-playoff competition!

tvropro

08-12-08, 03:09 PM

While thats true, Comcast only got breakups during storms. Do you get any when a storm is overhead or nearby (not that you should watch TV during a storm, as you shouldn't)...

I haven't noticed any so far. What I'll do is hook a kite on to my antenna next storm and tie a key on the end of it and see if I can do a Ben Franklin :rolleyes: Maybe that will cause some heavy duty interference. :)

Rammitinski

08-12-08, 03:30 PM

NL= inferior? Then how come players like Frank Thomas and Edgar Martinez would have been washed up 5-10 years earlier compared to their AL days if they would have been in the NL and had to field a position? Remember, the AL didn't start that stupid DH (which they incidentally don't need for run production anymore) until the 70s. That's not baseball. It's 45 mins - 1 hr more each game of swing for the fences boredom with little strategy.Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Three words - All Star Game.

(And don't forget the WS too, recently.)

I don't really like the DH rule myself, either (though not half as much as I dislike the three divisions and the wild card setup - I'm more of a purist myself). But even without it, I have a pretty good feeling things wouldn't be that much different. I admit that there isn't as much bunting or hitting-and-running as there used to be - "sacrificing", as they used to call it - but that goes for both leagues. They just don't want to learn that stuff down in the minors. Those kinds of players don't make the millions. The game has changed whether we like it or not (and I mostly don't). It's all full of Prima Donna's now. But they are better athletes.

DJ Matt

08-12-08, 05:36 PM

I hope the Cubs win their division. They need to keep winning 2/3 every series to keep Milwaukee back. As long as the Cubs stay healthy they should at least make the playoffs.

surf_fun85

08-12-08, 07:37 PM

I know the WGN engineers can't comment on the board, but if they could, I know they'd say..."OK, bud, can you pony up a mil for some new ones?" I'm sure they'd love to replace the ones they have, too.

One of the WGN engineers is a member here..and has posted a few times before..;)

sebenste

08-13-08, 09:42 AM

One of the WGN engineers is a member here..and has posted a few times before..;)

That's true, but wasn't that a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away... ;)

I hope he is still around and can comment, but I'm not holding my hopes up. I'm still hoping their master control rebuild will entail this...

sebenste

08-13-08, 09:43 AM

I haven't noticed any so far. What I'll do is hook a kite on to my antenna next storm and tie a key on the end of it and see if I can do a Ben Franklin :rolleyes: Maybe that will cause some heavy duty interference. :)

LOL! Yes, I should have written that better. Not advocating a Ben Franklin experiment, with a TV antenna instead! :eek: :D All I can say is this: February 17 just can't come soon enough for 'BBM.

swiat

08-13-08, 09:56 AM

Is anyone inside knowledgeable as to what's going to happen with subchannel programming once more people acquire digital tuners? There's a rush to get them now, but I think there is still a large part of the population who doesn't even know about the subchannels. Reason I'm asking is that some "geniuses" at DirecTV are pushing to remove the OTA tuner from the boxes. The last 2 receivers don't have internal OTA tuners, which seems very short-sighted to me. Won't broadcasters be putting more profitable (more interesting) programming on the subchannels in the near future? I heard about NBC going to some 24 hr news on their subchannel in the near future. Any other rumors? Also, how do "must carry" laws apply to digital subchannels?

Macfan424

08-13-08, 10:54 AM

...some "geniuses" at DirecTV are pushing to remove the OTA tuner from the boxes. The last 2 receivers don't have internal OTA tuners, which seems very short-sighted to me...I think D* dropped the OTA tuners to save a few bucks. Their research probably told them that most of their customers don't use OTA after they get their locals via satellite.

They do offer a separate OTA tuner that integrates with their newest HD DVR, but that comes at extra cost. I may be in a minority among their customers, but I wouldn't do without OTA if only for all the extra channels and lower susceptibility to rain fade. I'd certainly much rather have an OTA tuner than the internet connection they're pushing. Not even close.

gonefishin

08-13-08, 11:37 AM

And what's this about the usually passive, easy-going Cub fans these days? 3 of them are in jail for kicking out a Huntley Sox fan's eye out (literally - he lost it) with a steel-toed boot in some bar (the poor guy has a family and needs to hold a fund-raiser to pay his medical bills - it was in the local paper), and I just saw tonight that 2 are on trial for breaking a Brewers fan's jaw in Milwaukee. You guys try and pull that crap in Sox park in the series if it happens, and I promise you (not you, personally) that Sox fans will make you regret the day you were born.

Of course, you already know that - that's why you didn't dare try doing it when we played each other there already this year. And we're mean and tough enough to know to drag it out - it won't be anything swift. Ain't no yuppie boys we're afraid of over there. ;)

...and there is the essence of todays Sox fan.

No matter what the Cubs do, and I mean no matter what it is...the Sox could always do it better. :rolleyes:

UGH! :p

go Cubs!
dan

swiat

08-13-08, 01:38 PM

Yeah, the DirecTV research said 94% don't see the need for the OTA tuner. Now, when I challenged the moderators of a DirecTV forum on that survey, no one could come up with any data, the phrasing of the question, or how the poll was taken. Essentially, it was a poorly taken survey by some marketing or finance people to skew a result and change a business plan and grind out $10 per receiver.

Pure stupidity. I still have 2 OTA HD capable receivers from them, but it's getting more difficult to get these.

So, I think you not so much in the minority as you may think since their holy survey is pure bogus. I'm in agreement with you and so are the 30% or more who responded on that other forum. But I suspect 30% will grow once subchannel programming improves. WCIU/WYCC/WTTW have done brilliant work in this regard.

Rammitinski

08-13-08, 02:48 PM

...and there is the essence of todays Sox fan.

No matter what the Cubs do, and I mean no matter what it is...the Sox could always do it better. :rolleyes:

UGH! :p

go Cubs!
danI personally have never heard of any White Sox fans who have ever kicked a guy's eye out or broke one's jaw. Maybe at the park they're a little snotty and immature at times with that "Na Na Hey Hey" taunt, but I wouldn't exactly put that in the same league as that other stuff. Taunting has always been part of the game, anyway. You think that's bad, you should go to Philadelphia. Don't bring your kids, that's all I'll say.

I've heard of people getting jumped by people who dwelled in Comiskey's neighborhood when I was younger (that's what people would say - never knew if it was actually true or not, though - you know how everybody was so irrationally racially prejudiced back then), and have seen minor fights in the stands, but I think that was a little different. I don't think any sport's venue is immune to that occasionally happening. Even when we were under extreme stress and pressure to win in '05 after countless years of futility just like you are now, I never heard of anything like that happening.

I didn't say we were waiting and hoping you came to our park doing that stuff - I just said that you won't get away with it there.

But as usual, the Cubs and their fans always find ways to self-sabotage themselves, and that behavior ain't no different. Guess you'll never change or learn.

Rammitinski

08-13-08, 03:17 PM

I heard about NBC going to some 24 hr news on their subchannel in the near future.... Also, how do "must carry" laws apply to digital subchannels?Egads! :eek: Have you seen the way the Olympics and the football games look now?

As far as the second sentence, I don't believe they do.

kblee

08-13-08, 04:04 PM

I personally have never heard of any White Sox fans who have ever kicked a guy's eye out or broke one's jaw.

Nope - all they do is run onto the field and attack the opposing team's first base coach. :rolleyes:

Rammitinski

08-13-08, 05:19 PM

Nope - all they do is run onto the field and attack the opposing team's first base coach. :rolleyes:That guy wasn't a typical Sox fan at all - I've never seen anyone in the park that looked like that guy in all my years of going to and watching the games. He wasn't even a baseball fan. He was just some drunken, ignorant, hillbilly neer-do-well that admitted he did it just for the attention, and his Jerry Springer-like "five minutes of fame", and was doing it to show off to his kid. I'm talking about the reasonably normal, real fans of both teams.

These guys they showed on the news in the Mil. incident were well-dressed, meticulously-groomed, smart-enough, rich-enough, spoiled-looking young guys, probably in their early-to-mid twenties. The kind of overgrown brats that usually easily get out of that kind of behavior and therefore, are the ones that are truly dangerous and the most despicable. The ones that have a he!! of a lot less excuse for acting that way.

And I believe from the way it was described in the article about the Huntley incident they were the same or similar (there were no actual pictures, though).

DJ Matt

08-13-08, 05:57 PM

Rammitinski

08-13-08, 06:01 PM

I will have about a 25-30 feet of RG6 connected to it. Should it be this long? I don't want any resistance and not sure how well the Terk indoor antenna will hold up with 25-30 feet of RG6 connected to it.Can you remove the power injector from that antenna? If so, and you need more power, you can do that and add a stronger amp, if you have to.

From Naperville, using an indoor antenna, you could probably do with a little more power than what that antenna's amp is giving you anyways. I don't believe it's really that much - like 10 or 15 dB. Maybe a low-noise, 20-25 dB Channel Master distribution amp or something similar. I've got a nice, 24 dB amp with automatic gain control that I got from Ace Hardware (generic, packaged under the Ace name). Less noisy than the Radio Shack's or Philips/Magnavox's.

DJ Matt

08-13-08, 11:58 PM

Can you remove the power injector from that antenna? If so, and you need more power, you can do that and add a stronger amp, if you have to.

From Naperville, using an indoor antenna, you could probably do with a little more power than what that antenna's amp is giving you anyways. I don't believe it's really that much - like 10 or 15 dB. Maybe a low-noise, 20-25 dB Channel Master distribution amp or something similar. I've got a nice, 24 dB amp with automatic gain control that I got from Ace Hardware (generic, packaged under the Ace name). Less noisy than the Radio Shack's or Philips/Magnavox's.
Yeah, the power source is actually on a connector that goes to the TV and then from there you can add RG6 cable. The power source is not on the antenna itself (if that makes sense). As far as an amp, that would be a good idea. I actually just switched to DirecTV and I have an amp in the basement that was being used for the cable. I will have to take a look to see what kind it is and report back.

sebenste

08-14-08, 12:23 AM

Egads! :eek: Have you seen the way the Olympics and the football games look now?

As far as the second sentence, I don't believe they do.

Actually, *part* of the problem is that they send frames at 50/second instead of 60/sec here in the U.S. That's why over in Asia, they're raving about the picture quality.

Over on the Olympics thread before it got nuked by the evil database Cabal, there was an explanation of how that signal got to you via a 4 step process, each involving digital transfer and compression. NBC audio guy Wendell S. said that he was watching the NBC source video being sent back to the states, and he called it something on the order of breathtaking. I don't know if he saw that before or after it was converted to 1080i/60, though.

Nope, subbies are not required to be carried. Some broadcasters were trying to make that a law last year, but that got shot down.

JSchultz

08-14-08, 02:08 AM

I've heard of people getting jumped by people who dwelled in Comiskey's neighborhood when I was younger (that's what people would say - never knew if it was actually true or not, though - you know how everybody was so irrationally racially prejudiced back then), and have seen minor fights in the stands, but I think that was a little different. I don't think any sport's venue is immune to that occasionally happening. Even when we were under extreme stress and pressure to win in '05 after countless years of futility just like you are now, I never heard of anything like that happening.

I know this is OT, but..

Even though I'm a die hard Sox fan, remember that every team has its idiot fans. I've seen them here in Chicago (at both fields) and even in Detroit.

I was at one of the cross town games at the Cell last year, and witnessed a fight break out at the urinals. WTF? Clearly, beer and testosterone do not mix. Yes, I believe Sox fans are the scrappier of the bunch- and no, they will not back down.

Back in '92 my brother, me and my dad were walking back to our car which was parked further down 35th, and my dad got jumped by a couple of guys with us kids right there. Scary stuff! But- Bridgeport has changed A LOT since then, and you would be hard pressed to buy a house for less than $350K in that neighborhood these days.

Ok, commence with OTA talk again! :D

swiat

08-14-08, 10:09 AM

So I have my Terk indoor antenna sitting right by my TV. It doesn't get the best signal there unless I move it out away from the TV by the window on the other side of the room. I have about a 10 feet piece of RG6 I am using, but I will be moving the antenna out to my screen porch where I get a great signal. I will have about a 25-30 feet of RG6 connected to it. Should it be this long? I don't want any resistance and not sure how well the Terk indoor antenna will hold up with 25-30 feet of RG6 connected to it.

It appears you are getting more attenuation/refraction from the walls of your house then the loss in the length of your cable. You seem to be doing the right thing by moving it closer to the signal source. 15 extra feet of coax is insignificant. RG-6 is good, low loss stuff. RG6-quad shield is even better. But, over 25-30' the attenuation difference between the 2 RG-6 lengths at 600 MHz is probably very small.

swiat

08-14-08, 10:17 AM

Yeah, the power source is actually on a connector that goes to the TV and then from there you can add RG6 cable. The power source is not on the antenna itself (if that makes sense). As far as an amp, that would be a good idea. I actually just switched to DirecTV and I have an amp in the basement that was being used for the cable. I will have to take a look to see what kind it is and report back.

There still might be an amplification circuit in the indoor antenna. So, removing the power source and putting an external amp on there might not be the best idea. You are getting significant loss when you try and use an unamplifed path that is meant to be amplified (i.e. higher insertion loss when unamplified), unless you pop the thing open and remove the amplifier circuit from the path to the antenna. From what I understand this is more or less like a preamp circuit for outdoor antennas.

spongyfungy

08-14-08, 10:34 AM

What store is a good place to buy an indoor antenna? I live in skokie so I don't need a great antenna, just a solid one

swiat

08-14-08, 10:38 AM

What store is a good place to buy an indoor antenna? I live in skokie so I don't need a great antenna, just a solid one

first, search online for a good indoor antenna and then search online for who has it (mail order or locally). Some good stores may sell crappy antennas. I think Cnet.com has some sort of product reviews. I'd start with that.

spongyfungy

08-14-08, 11:25 AM

first, search online for a good indoor antenna and then search online for who has it (mail order or locally). Some good stores may sell crappy antennas. I think Cnet.com has some sort of product reviews. I'd start with that.

thanks for cnet idea. I saw the user review about the terk indoor and it's 70 at best buy.

I will start off with RCA - Indoor Off-Air HDTV Antenna for 10 bucks at BB. then work my way up with receipts. I'm reading some user reviews from BB from chicago people and they say it's pretty good. I get about 90% reception on most channels with just a coat hanger. The problem is when I walk by it, it drops to 20

Eventually I'll make one of those DIY antennas with the wooden boards / coat hangers

Rammitinski

08-14-08, 01:44 PM

What store is a good place to buy an indoor antenna? I live in skokie so I don't need a great antenna, just a solid oneThere's a sticky thread in the HDTV Technical section here by Escape Velocity that reviews indoor antennas that's pretty good.

Some of the pages got knocked out with the crash here recently, but he's been busy trying to re-post all the most important stuff.

gonefishin

08-14-08, 02:26 PM

I didn't say we were waiting and hoping you came to our park doing that stuff - I just said that you won't get away with it there.

But as usual, the Cubs and their fans always find ways to self-sabotage themselves, and that behavior ain't no different. Guess you'll never change or learn.

Hi Rammitinski. You certainly seem to have taken offense from my post, that wasn't my intent. Sorry.

This is your playground, not mine. I get that. I'll keep my post on topic in this forum from now on.

Thanks,
dan

kjnorman

08-14-08, 04:01 PM

I live is SW Naperville and get my TV via Directv. We lose all TV when storms roll through (like when a tornado rolls within a mile or two of your house :eek:) and so I was thinking about putting up an antenna so we can get OTA during bad storms - to check live weather. Added bonus would be the ability to get PBS in HD.

I want the antenna in the attic and I understand that I will lose a lot of my signal strength because of this. Also I do not care about getting WBBM on channel 3 at the moment, as I get this though directv.

I know a lot of people recommend the Winegard HD7082P, but this looks to be a monster antenna to my eyes. Considering that I do not need channel 3, and I only really care about:

ABC7 (WLS-DT) - channel 52 - channel 7 after Feb09
CBS2 (WBBM-DT) - channel 3 - channel 12 after Feb09
FOX32 - (WFLD-DT) - channel 31
NBC5 - (WMAQ-DT) - channel 29
PBS11 - (WTTW-DT) - channel 47
PBS20 - (WYCC-DT) - channel 21

it looks like the lowest channel I have to get is channel 7. If only ABC stayed on 52 I would not have to worry about VHF at all.

Given this, any recommendations on an antenna? As cheap and as small as possible as this is only for occasional/backup viewing and I am not sure how much room there is in the attic.

Thanks.

kjnorman

08-14-08, 04:25 PM

Rammitinski

08-14-08, 04:40 PM

You certainly seem to have taken offense from my post..Not really.

Macfan424

08-14-08, 05:39 PM

thanks for cnet idea. I saw the user review about the terk indoor and it's 70 at best buy.

I will start off with RCA - Indoor Off-Air HDTV Antenna for 10 bucks at BB. then work my way up with receipts. I'm reading some user reviews from BB from chicago people and they say it's pretty good. I get about 90% reception on most channels with just a coat hanger. The problem is when I walk by it, it drops to 20

Eventually I'll make one of those DIY antennas with the wooden boards / coat hangers I'm in Skokie, too.

I use an outdoor antenna for my main TV, but un-amplified rabbit ears work on the ones in the bedrooms, especially on the second floor. Except, of course, for WBBM-DT.

The RCA should be worth a try. I had my best luck with one from Radio Shack (Model # long lost, but it's the one with a picture frame disguising the UHF loop.) It's the only one I've ever used where the "tuning" circuit (whatever it is) actually did something useful. It was <$20.

I've had some limited success with a number of other indoor antennae, too, though none has been great. Multipath is the bane of all of them, to a greater or lesser degree. Amplification doesn't seem to help much here.

DJ Matt

08-14-08, 11:22 PM

It appears you are getting more attenuation/refraction from the walls of your house then the loss in the length of your cable. You seem to be doing the right thing by moving it closer to the signal source. 15 extra feet of coax is insignificant. RG-6 is good, low loss stuff. RG6-quad shield is even better. But, over 25-30' the attenuation difference between the 2 RG-6 lengths at 600 MHz is probably very small.
Yeah, I ran it out today. Its in the screen porch pointing northeast. Everything is coming in good except for ABC. I have a hard time getting a consistent signal for ABC. CBS of course is a lost cause. I don't expect to get that. Fox came in the best at 9 bars. Every channel is pretty much between 7-10 bars except for ABC where it fluctuates really quickly anywhere between 1-5 bars for the signal meter on the TV.

There still might be an amplification circuit in the indoor antenna. So, removing the power source and putting an external amp on there might not be the best idea. You are getting significant loss when you try and use an unamplifed path that is meant to be amplified (i.e. higher insertion loss when unamplified), unless you pop the thing open and remove the amplifier circuit from the path to the antenna. From what I understand this is more or less like a preamp circuit for outdoor antennas.
Yeah, its got something that connects to the TV and has an on/off switch on it and then from there I have the 25-30 feet of RG6 running to the antenna in the screen porch.

goaliebob99

08-15-08, 01:57 AM

Any ideas if the ChannelMaster 4228 will be able to pick up channel 7? I remember reading somewhere that, though this was a UHF antenna only, it was actually fairly decent at picking up the high VHF bands.

Anyone tried it in our area?

I use it down here in Manteno and it picks up 7 analoge great on the antenna. At channel 6 everything seems do drop down signifigantly and channel 5 or below you cant pick up anything with this antenna. I tryed using it to pick up some HD Radio stations on it and it doesnt work well for that :(

sebenste

08-15-08, 02:40 AM

Any ideas if the ChannelMaster 4228 will be able to pick up channel 7? I remember reading somewhere that, though this was a UHF antenna only, it was actually fairly decent at picking up the high VHF bands.

Anyone tried it in our area?

I have one 50' up on my building, and it picks up analog 7 OK 60 miles out in DeKalb, but that's outdoors. BTW, for those of you interested, here's a warning: Get one now if you want one. Soon, ChannelMaster is switching to a lousy version of it...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1014956

It would be pretty rough to say that ChannelMaster is ignoring their engineers and going with a lousy version made in China that can easily be broken.

But it would be true...

DJ Matt

08-15-08, 06:50 AM

After moving and playing around with my antenna in the screen porch I was successfully able to get 10/10 bars on the signal meter on the TV for Fox, NBC, ABC and WCIU. PBS and WGN were at 5 or 6 bars, but came in really good still. Now, if nobody moves it I should be ok.

hvs10trk

08-15-08, 01:37 PM

Sorry, I moved. It won't happen again. :D

gonefishin

08-15-08, 04:04 PM

Has anyone got a recommendation for a VHF hi antenna for (2 story) attic install in Joliet? (For the new channel 2 in 2009)

I'm currently using an AntennaCraft Y5-2-6 to get channel two. The antenna is mounted in the attic and is sharing a preamp (after combiner) which is about 15' away from the VHF antenna. I'm using this setup with good results and only very minimal break-up on channel 2.

If performance is similar on a couple of antenna's the smaller unit would give me more flexibility for aiming.

thanks all,
dan

Rammitinski

08-15-08, 08:34 PM

Winegard is selling some newer hi-VHF/UHF models that look promising.

I think they've got them all listed on www.solidsignal.com.

orum

08-15-08, 10:01 PM

sebenste

08-16-08, 02:15 AM

I have a radio shack 90 mile UHF/VHF/FM antenna that I installed in my attic about 2.5 years ago. I have it split in the attic to a run that goes into my basement and one that goes in the master bedroom.

I have a 4 way splitter in the basement and and one of those runs has a 2 way splitter.

The antenna connects to 2 TV's and 4 computer HD tuners. It has been working great until about the 1st of this month (August 2008). NBC started getting pixellated and pausing. It is almost all the time, but occasionally it will work fine for a while. It seems to be worse on channel 5, but I see a little on 7 too.

I have tried taking out some of the splitters and replacing them with barrel connectors so that only one of my computers is connected. I thought this fixed it, but I would still get some random stuttering.

I thought maybe the trees got a little fuller in the area, so I though maybe picking up an amplifier would do the trick. Unfortunately, either I have no idea what I am doing, or it isn't helping (or both).

What can go wrong? What else should I check? How can I troubleshoot this and fix it before Fall TV starts?

Thanks for any suggestions.

I just dug out an old Accurian hd tuner I bought as I remembered that it had a signal meter. I am getting good signal from most stations, but WMAQ is peaking at 20.5dB SNR. This is about the middle of the graph in the yellow. It occasionally drops to the red.

Here are the (approx peak) SNR readings I am getting from other channels:
9-1 32
7-1 27
11-1 28.5
2-1 23 (near the bottom of the green area)

Dan

Dan,

I want to first point out, to others watching this thread: signal strength numbers are useful, but if you have signal-to-noise ratio numbers, these are the BEST. Signal quality is the percentage number, and not signal strength. You can have 100% signal quality, and have a decent, but not great, signal strength. A signal to noise ratio, only found on a few tuners, really pinpoints the problems more quickly.
(When Dan says, for example, 11-1 is 28.5 above, he means his S/N ratio is 28.5:1.

To your problem: I would say try adjusting the antenna; your signal strengths on the other channels indicate that it is good. A 20:1 S/N ratio is required for many tuners older than 2 years old to solidly lock a signal (the theoretical limit is around 16:1, which at least one current tuner claims to do). Your suspicions of multipath may very well be correct. With very lush trees, there's lots of moisture in them right now, and that may cause more than usual multipath. Others here are struggling with it as well.

Otherwise, to reduce the multipath, a VU-190 antenna from Radio Shack in your attic would help, if it would fit. But my advice is try moving the antenna around to see if there's a better location up there for it. Sometimes an inch or two makes all the difference in the world.

orum

08-16-08, 10:46 AM

spongyfungy

08-16-08, 11:37 AM

I'm in Skokie, too.

I use an outdoor antenna for my main TV, but un-amplified rabbit ears work on the ones in the bedrooms, especially on the second floor. Except, of course, for WBBM-DT.

The RCA should be worth a try. I had my best luck with one from Radio Shack (Model # long lost, but it's the one with a picture frame disguising the UHF loop.) It's the only one I've ever used where the "tuning" circuit (whatever it is) actually did something useful. It was <$20.

I bought the 10 dollar antenna and it's going back. I'm not getting a steady picture with it.
Right now the coat hanger with wire is getting snr of 28.5db 100% but again it's ugly and signal seems to depend on the weather / cars going by
The RCA off-air antenna is getting about 25ish db and 85% according to dvico signal checker and it fluctutates a lot.

EDIT : Ok I put it on the ledge of a window sill (still indoors) and it's getting 31.0db and 100% and it's not moving at all. so I guess I'm keeping it. BTW this is NBC5 RF29

jldet5

08-16-08, 11:58 AM

Thanks for the reply. After digging into this some more, I am having receiption issues on more than NBC. My recording of Flashpoint on CBS the other night was terrible, and I am getting skipping on WTTW.

I looked at the specs for the antenna you recommended (VU-190), and I was suprised that the width was the same as my current antenna. I think I can get that into my attic.

My attic is large, but I only have a non storage area to one side (where I currently have my VU-90). If getting a new antenna is a quick fix, I don't mind upgrading. I tried moving my antenna around, and it didn't seem to make a difference.

I did also find something interesting, although I am not sure why it would have just now started causing a problem. The 2 runs of cable that my contractor put in that end in the attic (instead of going to the bedrooms) is Coleman 92003 RG6/U. I don't think it is quad shielded. It may be that I was on the edge for the last few years, and the extra tree growth/wet leaves is putting me over the bad signal line.

Thanks again for all the help/suggestions.

Dan

Definitely go with a larger RS antenna. I didn't see which suburb your in. I'm out in Algonquin and I use to run a VU-190 chimney mounted. I also have 3 splits in the attic and 4 tuners in the main level. Make sure your splitters are low loss with a DC pass through in case you decide to amplify. I've never had much luck with an amp for digital channels and that was with a top of the line channel master. If your house is alum sided you will have problems depending on where your antenna is in the attic.

orum

08-16-08, 12:09 PM

I am heading out today to pick up the VU-190. I think I will also get the splitters, but how do I know which ones to buy. Will I be able to get low-loss splitters with DC passthrough at Radioshack?

I live in Elmhurst, so I am not that far from the city, but there are LOTS of trees in Elmhurst.

I joked with my wife that I was either going to buy a new antenna or a chainsaw. :)

Thanks,
Dan

sebenste

08-16-08, 12:50 PM

jldet5

08-16-08, 12:52 PM

tvropro

08-16-08, 02:38 PM

Thanks for the reply. After digging into this some more, I am having receiption issues on more than NBC. My recording of Flashpoint on CBS the other night was terrible, and I am getting skipping on WTTW.

I looked at the specs for the antenna you recommended (VU-190), and I was suprised that the width was the same as my current antenna. I think I can get that into my attic.

My attic is large, but I only have a non storage area to one side (where I currently have my VU-90). If getting a new antenna is a quick fix, I don't mind upgrading. I tried moving my antenna around, and it didn't seem to make a difference.

I did also find something interesting, although I am not sure why it would have just now started causing a problem. The 2 runs of cable that my contractor put in that end in the attic (instead of going to the bedrooms) is Coleman 92003 RG6/U. I don't think it is quad shielded. It may be that I was on the edge for the last few years, and the extra tree growth/wet leaves is putting me over the bad signal line.

Thanks again for all the help/suggestions.

Dan

How about getting that antenna out of the attic and outside? You loose about 50% of your signal indoors. I tried years ago to get channel 2 analog good with an attic antenna (and I'm only 9 miles from the Hancock) Just wouldn't work well. I put it outside and all was well, what a difference! I understand there are some reasons one can't put an antenna outside, but in all honesty you can't beat it's performance outside.

tvropro

08-16-08, 02:47 PM

LOL! They do have decent low-loss splitters, so what you get there will be good enough for what you want to do.

The ones Cell Shack sells you can pick up at a Dollar store for a lot less. The old Winegard TVMAN series were some of the lowest loss splitters out there. I use them and the Regal 1 ghz models now in my home Smatv system (MATV distribution side).

sebenste

08-17-08, 12:28 AM

How about getting that antenna out of the attic and outside? You loose about 50% of your signal indoors. I tried years ago to get channel 2 analog good with an attic antenna (and I'm only 9 miles from the Hancock) Just wouldn't work well. I put it outside and all was well, what a difference! I understand there are some reasons one can't put an antenna outside, but in all honesty you can't beat it's performance outside.

This is the one antenna I don't recommend one puts outside, because within 5 years, it will be ripped to shreds by the wind. They're known for not lasting all that long. Unless they've had a design change in the last year, I'd say don't do it. With a Winegard or ChannelMaster, sure.

jldet5

08-17-08, 07:11 AM

jldet5

08-17-08, 07:15 AM

How about getting that antenna out of the attic and outside? You loose about 50% of your signal indoors. I tried years ago to get channel 2 analog good with an attic antenna (and I'm only 9 miles from the Hancock) Just wouldn't work well. I put it outside and all was well, what a difference! I understand there are some reasons one can't put an antenna outside, but in all honesty you can't beat it's performance outside.

He obviously wants to try and get an attic install working first. With 2 and 3 going away in around 6 months were there any other channels you had problems with?

dicko2

08-17-08, 01:38 PM

Speaking of splitters, I whole heartedly recommend one of these:
http://cgi.ebay.com/VIEWSONICS-8-PORT-PRO-VSA-608C-CABLE-TV-HDTV-AMPLIFIER_W0QQitemZ300113481830QQihZ020QQcategoryZ39803QQrdZ 1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1638Q2em118Q2el12 47

A powered splitter with 4db gain per port 3.2 db noise figure. It comes in 2 or 4 port versions too. Its a professional piece of equipment, not like what you can buy at radio shack. It also comes with an active or passive reverse channel depending on if you have a cable modem.

It made a world of difference in my set up where I had to split my antenna to 6 media center tuners, 1 external tuner, & 1 other TV.

-dickm

tvropro

08-17-08, 05:37 PM

This is the one antenna I don't recommend one puts outside, because within 5 years, it will be ripped to shreds by the wind. They're known for not lasting all that long. Unless they've had a design change in the last year, I'd say don't do it. With a Winegard or ChannelMaster, sure.

Which antenna are we talking about the RS VU 190? I may have too many antenna's on my roof 7 (Winegards & RS) in all. One of those is a RS VU 110 that I modified the UHF section with the VU 160's corner reflectors. It has been up there 5 and a half years and still is perfect (I just looked at it) Radio shack had a closeout sale years ago on all there antenna's because the box didn't say digital ready. I picked up a VU 110, VU 160 and a U 120 for about $15.00 total. I still have the VU 160 and the U 120 sitting disassembled in my attic. BTW The RS antennas used to be manufactured by antennacraft in Burlington Iowa.

I tried to use the VU 110 in my attic but channel 2 had crap in it so I got the VU 160 and removed the UHF section (sawed it off) and made it a VHF only to fit in my attic to try to get channel 2 better. It wouldn't do it, so I got mad on a cold January day in 2003 and put the VU 110 outside while it was snowing. The channel 2 problem stopped. I have always put antenna's outside since 1972 and knew the problems associated with the attic but I tried to see if I could beat it but I lost. Just too many things can happen by having it inside like a wet roof, snow & ice on the roof, rafters causing reflections, lower height, etc. The purists say the only winning move is outside, 10 feet or so away from anything and 10 feet above the roof line. I have to agree with them.

tvropro

08-17-08, 05:41 PM

dicko2

08-17-08, 07:50 PM

The spec sheet is here
http://emersonnetworkpower.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ESC/resources/Emerson29009CATV.pdf

it says 3.5 db

Its built like a brick. soldered shut too.

-dickm

andyross63

08-18-08, 06:24 PM

sebenste

08-18-08, 08:24 PM

Which antenna are we talking about the RS VU 190? I may have too many antenna's on my roof 7 (Winegards & RS) in all. One of those is a RS VU 110 that I modified the UHF section with the VU 160's corner reflectors. It has been up there 5 and a half years and still is perfect (I just looked at it) Radio shack had a closeout sale years ago on all there antenna's because the box didn't say digital ready. I picked up a VU 110, VU 160 and a U 120 for about $15.00 total. I still have the VU 160 and the U 120 sitting disassembled in my attic. BTW The RS antennas used to be manufactured by antennacraft in Burlington Iowa.

I tried to use the VU 110 in my attic but channel 2 had crap in it so I got the VU 160 and removed the UHF section (sawed it off) and made it a VHF only to fit in my attic to try to get channel 2 better. It wouldn't do it, so I got mad on a cold January day in 2003 and put the VU 110 outside while it was snowing. The channel 2 problem stopped. I have always put antenna's outside since 1972 and knew the problems associated with the attic but I tried to see if I could beat it but I lost. Just too many things can happen by having it inside like a wet roof, snow & ice on the roof, rafters causing reflections, lower height, etc. The purists say the only winning move is outside, 10 feet or so away from anything and 10 feet above the roof line. I have to agree with them.

I've had reports---and documented well on RS own website in their commentaries---that the VU-190's arms break off rather quickly in high winds. And I've seen several reports on AVSforum of the same thing, so it's not just a few.

As for the attic, if you can do it, fine---but I agree, ideally, at least 10' above the roofline, away from objects, is the best. If you can put it on a 30' tower like one of my friends does, even better. :)

sebenste

08-18-08, 08:38 PM

This past weekend, I was at my father's trailer in Garden Prairie, IL (between Marengo and Belvidere) and was able to play with the DTV adapter (the Magnavox thing WalMart sells) a little more. Last time I was there, the power went out after about an hour or so.

The antenna used is one of those Winegard RV antenna's that looks like a wing. It cranks up and down and can rotate for aiming. It has a build-in amp. Last time, I tried adding additional amplification, but it didn't seem to help. The signal strength meter is rather poor, but some stations come in pretty well even down at 16-17! WQRF is the strongest, showing around 70+. The others tend to hover in the 20-40 range.

I can pick up the Rockford stations WTVO, WIFR and WQRF very well at all times. WTVO had no EPG data on either 17.1 or 17.2. WREX is trickier and is somewhat sensitive to the antenna position. I had problems Sunday morning no matter where I adjusted the antenna.

With some tweaking, I was also able to pick up several Madison stations: WISC, WKOW, WMSN and WBUW. All seem to be using the same channels as Chicago analogs, so hopefully things may clear up after Feb. Any information on if any of the above will have more power or different frequencies then?

I'm also a bit confused about the antenna. The little pointer on the rotator is more or less facing East, but the wings are also east/west. Is this correct? I assume it is a basic dipole, and I think they do pick up best from the sides?

Although I can pick up an analog PBS (21?) on the TV, nothing digital.

I had that antenna when I was a kid, playing in the trailer my parents had.
I loved and hated it...I was such a wimp that I couldn't pull the handle down to loosen it, and then turning the thing was tough, too. Maybe they've made it easier...but I'll cut myself some slack and say I had a pull-out table underneath it that I had to avoid, so I had to come at it from a big angle. And I was young and small at the time. :)

http://www.rvpartscenter.com/ProductDetail.asp?PID=28382&SID=4&DID=56&CID=145

It's bi-directional but I always found a slight advantage of one side versus the other. However, the wings need to be perpendicular to the station. In the picture above, the station would be pretty much where the photographer is (or a bit to the right), or straight back behind it. It has, I believe, a 20 dB amp on it, which you can control with the flick of the switch and the famous little red light that comes on when you turn it.

The Madison DTV stations are all on the same channels as Chicago analogs: 11, 20, 26, 32, 50, although 11 is moving to 49 pending FCC approval. Once shutdown happens, 20 goes higher up on the antenna, 26 goes from 300 kw to a million. The others do well with the juice they have now.

hvs10trk

08-19-08, 02:34 PM

And we'll kick it off this weekend with "Cinderella Man" at 6pm. There more to come once the fall season comes full circle. Stay tuned for details..........

sebenste

08-19-08, 03:29 PM

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/technology/chi-tue-digital-conversionaug19,0,4081006.story

sebenste

08-19-08, 03:46 PM

And we'll kick it off this weekend with "Cinderella Man" at 6pm. There more to come once the fall season comes full circle. Stay tuned for details..........

Cool! :)

andyross63

08-19-08, 05:06 PM

I had that antenna when I was a kid, playing in the trailer my parents had.
I loved and hated it...I was such a wimp that I couldn't pull the handle down to loosen it, and then turning the thing was tough, too. Maybe they've made it easier...but I'll cut myself some slack and say I had a pull-out table underneath it that I had to avoid, so I had to come at it from a big angle. And I was young and small at the time. :)

http://www.rvpartscenter.com/ProductDetail.asp?PID=28382&SID=4&DID=56&CID=145
This one has a rotating crank in the middle to move it up and down. That crank goes through a large spring-loaded ring. There are bumps on the bottom that sit in pockets on the mounting plate on the ceiling. You pull down on the ring, rotate it (which rotates the antenna), then let it go and it will lock in one of the bumps.

Rikster

08-19-08, 09:50 PM

sebenste

08-20-08, 03:10 AM

I have been watching the Olympics for the past 10 days and have gotten tired of the lousy picture I am receiving. I plan to upgrade my cable as well as the antenna. My current VHF/UHF antenna, which has 2 TVs connected to it, is in the attic. With the impending changeover to digital in mind, I have decided to put a new unit up on the roof while the weather is decent. I’m having trouble deciding on an antenna though. I’m about 43 miles northwest of Chicago in a 2 story house. In addition to getting the "normal" channels, I want something that will be able to pick up both Channel 2 (it’s been 5 years since I was able to pick it up) and WMEU. After reading through the forum I’m leaning towards Winegard products-possibly the HD7084P. Would this antenna be adequate? Are there other brands/models I should be considering? I tentatively plan on going without a preamp unless I find that it’s necessary. That way I can climb up on the roof a second time.:rolleyes: Your advice is appreciated.

Hello Rikster,

Welcome to AVS Forum Chicago Over-The-Air! Glad you're here.

You are fortunate, because I actually helped do an install at Willow Creek Church (in Crystal Lake), and you also have at least one other member up there (Rammitinski), so I know the reception well. First off, I *do* recommend the 7084P for your area. I also recommend, with an outdoor install, a Winegard AP-8700 preamplifier:

https://www.tselectronic.com/winegard/ap_preamp.html (this is a local store)

http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/AP8700.htm

This will ensure you get solid signals except on the most marginal of days.

One thing you might want to consider is a rotor. In Crystal Lake with a rooftop antenna, reliable signals can be found from both Rockford and Milwaukee. If you are a Packers or Brewers fan, or a big fan of PBS, you'll want this.

Don't forget to run RG-6 (preferably quad-shielded or tri-shielded) cable from the antenna. I hope that helps!

Rammitinski

08-20-08, 06:39 AM

Yes, Gilbert's right - the HD7084P and the AP-8700 are what the professional installers in this area generally recommend.

If you want Milwaukee more consistenly you might want to try the Channel Master CM7777 pre-amp instead. Or even the Winegard AP-8275, for a little more oomph for VHF (currently 3-WBBM-DT, Chicago and 8-PBS, Milwaukee, and 7 & 12 out of Chicago come February). They shouldn't overload you for those other, closer markets if you're planning on splitting a couple of times (if not, then the CM7777 would probably be enough, with that antenna - although I'm using an AP-8275 from 41 or so miles out with one split, and it's fine.)

giomania

08-20-08, 12:21 PM

Winegard is selling some newer hi-VHF/UHF models that look promising.

I think they've got them all listed on www.solidsignal.com.

Do you think these would perform any better than a good-quality traditional VHF/UHF antenna?

Thanks.

Mark

tvropro

08-20-08, 12:55 PM

Do you think these would perform any better than a good-quality traditional VHF/UHF antenna?

Thanks.

Mark

I would say no, if the gain on the bands are about the same as the antenna you currently have. All these VHF-Hi/UHF antennas are just regular antenna's without the longer elements to receive channel 2-6 and FM.

Now if they use the extra space that they used for those low band driven elements and replaced them with driven and director elements for 174 mhz -216 mhz (Vhf-Hi) they could increase gain and directivity quite a bit in that band.

giomania

08-20-08, 01:00 PM

I would say no, if the gain on the bands are about the same as the antenna you currently have. All these VHF-Hi/UHF antennas are just regular antenna's without the longer elements to receive channel 2-6 and FM.

Now if they use the extra space that they used for those low band driven elements and replaced them with driven and director elements for 174 mhz -216 mhz (Vhf-Hi) they could increase gain and directivity quite a bit in that band.

Thanks.

Mark

jldet5

08-20-08, 06:54 PM

Hello Rikster,

Welcome to AVS Forum Chicago Over-The-Air! Glad you're here.

You are fortunate, because I actually helped do an install at Willow Creek Church (in Crystal Lake), and you also have at least one other member up there (Rammitinski), so I know the reception well. First off, I *do* recommend the 7084P for your area. I also recommend, with an outdoor install, a Winegard AP-8700 preamplifier:

https://www.tselectronic.com/winegard/ap_preamp.html (this is a local store)

http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/AP8700.htm

This will ensure you get solid signals except on the most marginal of days.

One thing you might want to consider is a rotor. In Crystal Lake with a rooftop antenna, reliable signals can be found from both Rockford and Milwaukee. If you are a Packers or Brewers fan, or a big fan of PBS, you'll want this.

Don't forget to run RG-6 (preferably quad-shielded or tri-shielded) cable from the antenna. I hope that helps!

Why not the 8200U or 7698 ? Wouldn't that ensure the best reception? Of course CBS would not work on the 7698 until Feb.

Rikster

08-20-08, 08:36 PM

Thanks for the advice, especially on the pre-amp. I'm leaning towards the AP-8275. Any suggestions on who makes/sells a sturdy 5 foot tripod? Jldet, I'm staying away from the 8200-too big. I also don't want to wait until February to get CBS. Bear games sre on Channel 2 occasionally.

Rammitinski

08-21-08, 01:08 PM

Looks like channel 7 Accu-weather changed their looks around a bit.

sebenste

08-21-08, 07:08 PM

Why not the 8200U or 7698 ? Wouldn't that ensure the best reception? Of course CBS would not work on the 7698 until Feb.

7698 for the latter reason, and for the former...the 8200U would indeed work fine, but the 7084p has 6.2 dB gain on channel 2, the 8200U has 5 dB.

http://starkelectronic.com/whd8200.htm

http://starkelectronic.com/wca7084.htm

The 8200U has a 1-2 dB gain or so over channels 13-51, but the gain is still more than good enough to get the UHF signals in, plus 13 from Rockford if he wants it, and it's smaller.

sebenste

08-21-08, 07:32 PM

Rikster

08-21-08, 07:58 PM

Thanks again!

surf_fun85

08-22-08, 01:25 AM

Looks like channel 7 Accu-weather changed their looks around a bit.

Like the new format
Only if they could remove Channel 7.2 all will be all good :)

hvs10trk

08-22-08, 05:57 AM

Anybody out there using the Winegard HD7600p series antenna? Thinking of upgrading to one for post-trasition.

tvropro

08-22-08, 07:19 AM

Only if they could remove Channel 7.2 all will be all good :)

Doubt if they will remove that. We will probably see more subchannels as time goes on. Compressed garbage over quality :(

HDTV TOM

08-22-08, 08:10 AM

Anybody out there using the Winegard HD7600p series antenna? Thinking of upgrading to one for post-trasition.

I have the 8200U. It looks like they chopped the Vhf Lo portion off of the back end and called it the 7600p. So, with that in mind I'll say it is the best antenna I've ever used. Mine is tower mounted at 35 feet AGL with a rotor and has survived a microburst without damage. The tower didn't, but the 8200 did. I installed it with the Winegard amplifier and overloaded the reciever to the point where it couldn't decode anything. I removed the amp and got everything, including 2.1. The UHF section is flawless and I never have any trouble with Vhf Hi. Even on non-skip nights I can see traces of 12 from Milwaukee and I had previously been known to watch 13 to brush up on my Chinese on WOCK-CA; wo xi huan dian shi! :D That is encouraging considering the impending move of WLS and WBBM to 7 and 12. In short, you can't beat a Winegard.

Macfan424

08-22-08, 11:15 AM

Doubt if they will remove that. We will probably see more subchannels as time goes on. Compressed garbage over quality :( That's a safe bet. As long as advertisers support them, subchannels will proliferate.

sebenste

08-22-08, 12:34 PM

Looks like channel 7 Accu-weather changed their looks around a bit.

I like it, but I miss the news ticker. Still, you can see stuff better now, including the radar, which was postage-stamp size on my TV. And they also show the "Metrovision" doppler radar from Romeoville...even better.

vasilemj

08-23-08, 12:40 AM

Looks like channel 7 Accu-weather changed their looks around a bit.

I wish they'd quit calling it "News Now". It's not a 24 hour news channel. It's a 24 hour weather channel.

Sparkman87

08-23-08, 08:37 AM

labnpei

08-23-08, 11:40 AM

does anyone know of a store where i can go in the south or southwest suburbs that sells winegard antennas? i am using the philips manta indoor/outdoor but want to hook up both of my tvs to one antenna but can not mount it on the roof. it will either have to go in the garage rafters or be a small dish type antenna which would be allowed outside. thanks

tvropro

08-23-08, 01:42 PM

pgartung

08-24-08, 12:59 AM

surf_fun85

08-24-08, 03:44 AM

I had one of those wireless meters installed here in chicago just recently
and not having any problems at all on the tv signals

maybe faulty wireless transmitter ?

tvropro

08-24-08, 09:20 AM

My reception of analog 7 has been wiped out for the last few months by what looks like interference from a nearby transmitter. It is bright and dark vertical waves on all of the VHF analog channels. I am trying to track down the source because I want to get ABC after the transition.

I tried setting the FM trap on my pre-amp but that didn't help at all. I removed the pre-amp and distribution amp from my system. I noticed that the interference was still there but it was much weaker on all of my TV sets except the one in the living room on the first floor. The TV could not even tune in channel 7 because the interference was so bad. I tried the VCR tuner in the same place and the interference was strong but the picture was still visible.

I tried eliminating any sources including disconnecting the doorbell transformer and moving the living room feed from its location near a battery backup. Nothing so far has fixed the problem.

I was looking around my basement for any source of this interference. I noticed two wires coming from my water meter. The wires go into electrical conduit. I followed to conduit to where it ended and the two wires went up into the wall. I then recalled that there is a box on the outside of my house where the meter wires go up. That box is only about 10 feet from the set that is getting the worst interference. I had noted before that interference on the VHF channels decreased when I turned off the circuit in the room next to the box. I attributed the noise to the PC power supply that was on that circuit. There are no PC power supplies on that circuit now but the interference is still there.

I am pretty sure that the box on the side of the house is the transmitter for a wireless water meter. I googled wireless water meters and tv interference. The first result mentioned that the meter used a frequency approximately 2x the frequency of channel 7. I think the meter transmitter is causing the interference. I guess the next thing to try is to put some shielding between the meter and the house. Maybe a piece of aluminum foil will do the trick.

Anyone have any thoughts on what else I could try?

A sledge hammer :rolleyes: In all reality if you think the water meter is the culprit call the water department and have them replace it. Tell them they are causing harmful interference because the transmitter is defective. If they still don't care somehow render the unit inoperable to transmitting (shield it's antenna etc) If they can't get a reading they will send someone out to look into it and replace it.

retromzc

08-24-08, 10:03 AM

My reception of analog 7 has been wiped out for the last few months by what looks like interference from a nearby transmitter. It is bright and dark vertical waves on all of the VHF analog channels. I am trying to track down the source because I want to get ABC after the transition.

I tried setting the FM trap on my pre-amp but that didn't help at all. I removed the pre-amp and distribution amp from my system. I noticed that the interference was still there but it was much weaker on all of my TV sets except the one in the living room on the first floor. The TV could not even tune in channel 7 because the interference was so bad. I tried the VCR tuner in the same place and the interference was strong but the picture was still visible.

I tried eliminating any sources including disconnecting the doorbell transformer and moving the living room feed from its location near a battery backup. Nothing so far has fixed the problem.

I was looking around my basement for any source of this interference. I noticed two wires coming from my water meter. The wires go into electrical conduit. I followed to conduit to where it ended and the two wires went up into the wall. I then recalled that there is a box on the outside of my house where the meter wires go up. That box is only about 10 feet from the set that is getting the worst interference. I had noted before that interference on the VHF channels decreased when I turned off the circuit in the room next to the box. I attributed the noise to the PC power supply that was on that circuit. There are no PC power supplies on that circuit now but the interference is still there.

I am pretty sure that the box on the side of the house is the transmitter for a wireless water meter. I googled wireless water meters and tv interference. The first result mentioned that the meter used a frequency approximately 2x the frequency of channel 7. I think the meter transmitter is causing the interference. I guess the next thing to try is to put some shielding between the meter and the house. Maybe a piece of aluminum foil will do the trick.

Anyone have any thoughts on what else I could try?

I am seeing similar problems on both channel 5 analog and channel 7 analog here in Plano. I have two theories....the low power channel 6 broadcasting from Chicago causing this and.... Comcast, yes Comcast. If I tune to channel 4 I can see the "Comcast Network" through my antenna. Also if I tune to channel 8 I can see WPWR which is where Comcast has placed WPWR on their cable systems. Comcast appears to have a "leak" somewhere in my area. I'm not sure if either of these are what it causing your channel 7 analog problem but as I said they are my prime suspects.

andyross63

08-24-08, 10:32 AM

I am seeing similar problems on both channel 5 analog and channel 7 analog here in Plano. I have two theories....the low power channel 6 broadcasting from Chicago causing this and.... Comcast, yes Comcast. If I tune to channel 4 I can see the "Comcast Network" through my antenna. Also if I tune to channel 8 I can see WPWR which is where Comcast has placed WPWR on their cable systems. Comcast appears to have a "leak" somewhere in my area. I'm not sure if either of these are what it causing your channel 7 analog problem but as I said they are my prime suspects.
Just a note that although 6 could interfere with 5, it could NOT interfere with 7. Channel 6 is roughly 83MHz (just below FM radio), 5 at 77MHz, and 7 at 175MHz.

pgartung

08-24-08, 10:55 AM

My reception of analog 7 has been wiped out for the last few months by what looks like interference from a nearby transmitter. It is bright and dark vertical waves on all of the VHF analog channels. I am trying to track down the source because I want to get ABC after the transition.

I tried setting the FM trap on my pre-amp but that didn't help at all. I removed the pre-amp and distribution amp from my system. I noticed that the interference was still there but it was much weaker on all of my TV sets except the one in the living room on the first floor. The TV could not even tune in channel 7 because the interference was so bad. I tried the VCR tuner in the same place and the interference was strong but the picture was still visible.

I tried eliminating any sources including disconnecting the doorbell transformer and moving the living room feed from its location near a battery backup. Nothing so far has fixed the problem.

I was looking around my basement for any source of this interference. I noticed two wires coming from my water meter. The wires go into electrical conduit. I followed to conduit to where it ended and the two wires went up into the wall. I then recalled that there is a box on the outside of my house where the meter wires go up. That box is only about 10 feet from the set that is getting the worst interference. I had noted before that interference on the VHF channels decreased when I turned off the circuit in the room next to the box. I attributed the noise to the PC power supply that was on that circuit. There are no PC power supplies on that circuit now but the interference is still there.

I am pretty sure that the box on the side of the house is the transmitter for a wireless water meter. I googled wireless water meters and tv interference. The first result mentioned that the meter used a frequency approximately 2x the frequency of channel 7. I think the meter transmitter is causing the interference. I guess the next thing to try is to put some shielding between the meter and the house. Maybe a piece of aluminum foil will do the trick.

Anyone have any thoughts on what else I could try?

I tried the foil shield which did not help. I did not try the sledgehammer approach :). I have a UHF and VHF-LO antenna in the attic because I don't want to mess with the HOA :mad:. They are joined by a UVJS. I completely disconnected the VHF-LO antenna. The UHF antenna is a 4-bay with reflector.

The end result is that I can still see the VHF-HI channels and channel 7 is interference free but very weak. I will put my pre-amp back in line so I can get 23.1 and 56.1 again. I guess my VHF-LO antenna is coupling to some source of interference that the UHF antenna is not. The VHF-LO only worked for CBS on the rare occasion anyway. I am thinking I should replace the VHF-LO with a VHF-HI yagi anyway.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Update: When I put the preamp back in the circuit with just the UHF antenna I can see a little bit of the interference on channel 7. Probably from some source in my attic, but coupled less to the UHF antenna. I won't know until next February if this interference will knock out ABC when it returns to channel 7. Maybe I will be able to convince the wife and the HOA to allow me to put up the much smaller 4 bay UHF antenna outside.

sebenste

08-24-08, 03:32 PM

I am seeing similar problems on both channel 5 analog and channel 7 analog here in Plano. I have two theories....the low power channel 6 broadcasting from Chicago causing this and.... Comcast, yes Comcast. If I tune to channel 4 I can see the "Comcast Network" through my antenna. Also if I tune to channel 8 I can see WPWR which is where Comcast has placed WPWR on their cable systems. Comcast appears to have a "leak" somewhere in my area. I'm not sure if either of these are what it causing your channel 7 analog problem but as I said they are my prime suspects.

And they should be. If they are leaking RF on channel 4, there's a *serious* RF leak in their signal. I'd go to the Comcast branch office (not their customer service numbers) and tell them what's going on. Tell them you're enjoying their cable service immensely, and that you're getting it for free...through a TV antenna. And then tell them they have a leak in their wiring somewhere. That will get their attention. :D

sebenste

08-24-08, 03:44 PM

I tried the foil shield which did not help. I did not try the sledgehammer approach :). I have a UHF and VHF-LO antenna in the attic because I don't want to mess with the HOA :mad:. They are joined by a UVJS. I completely disconnected the VHF-LO antenna. The UHF antenna is a 4-bay with reflector.

The end result is that I can still see the VHF-HI channels and channel 7 is interference free but very weak. I will put my pre-amp back in line so I can get 23.1 and 56.1 again. I guess my VHF-LO antenna is coupling to some source of interference that the UHF antenna is not. The VHF-LO only worked for CBS on the rare occasion anyway. I am thinking I should replace the VHF-LO with a VHF-HI yagi anyway.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Update: When I put the preamp back in the circuit with just the UHF antenna I can see a little bit of the interference on channel 7. Probably from some source in my attic, but coupled less to the UHF antenna. I won't know until next February if this interference will knock out ABC when it returns to channel 7. Maybe I will be able to convince the wife and the HOA to allow me to put up the much smaller 4 bay UHF antenna outside.

OK, try this...maybe you have, and if I did, I apologize, but...

Turn every electric circuit off EXCEPT for the TV. Yeah, I know, it'll be a pain to reset clocks, microwave, etc...but it is worth it. If you are still seeing the interference, make sure that you are using all RG-6 cable for interconnections between devices. RG-59 cable is unshielded and will NOT protect interference. Actually, even before you do any of this, I strongly suggest that, if you haven't done so, replace the RF connector cables behind your TV and VCR/DVD with quad-shielded RG-6. Even if they are regular RG-6, I'd go with quad shielded. That will help you out, no matter what.

If the interference disappears after you shut down the power, bring each circuit online until the offending one is noted. Then find out what device could be causing that while on the circuit. I've never heard of a water meter doing that; it sounds a little weird.

tvropro

08-24-08, 04:36 PM

RG-59 cable is unshielded and will NOT protect interference.

RG-59 cable is shielded it can be 95% or higher depending on it's design. The difference between 59u and 6u is 59's center conductor is thinner which causes higher attenuation with long runs then 6u.

Quad shielded is usually two braids and two foils. Standard 6u is usually one braid and one foil. 59u can be the same as standard 6u or just have a braid.

sebenste

08-24-08, 04:39 PM

RG-59 cable is shielded it can be 95% or higher depending on it's design. The difference between 59u and 6u is 59's center conductor is thinner which causes higher attenuation with long runs then 6u.

Quad shielded is usually two braids and two foils. Standard 6u is usually one braid and one foil. 59u can be the same as standard 6u or just have a braid.

The older stuff isn't except for the white foam. I've seen it, and I'm amazed it carries signal as well as it does (which is to say, not very well).

Either way, RG-59, even for short runs if possible, should be avoided like the plague.

sebenste

08-24-08, 04:50 PM

OK, try this...maybe you have, and if I did, I apologize, but...

Turn every electric circuit off EXCEPT for the TV. Yeah, I know, it'll be a pain to reset clocks, microwave, etc...but it is worth it. If you are still seeing the interference, make sure that you are using all RG-6 cable for interconnections between devices. RG-59 cable is unshielded and will NOT protect interference. Actually, even before you do any of this, I strongly suggest that, if you haven't done so, replace the RF connector cables behind your TV and VCR/DVD with quad-shielded RG-6. Even if they are regular RG-6, I'd go with quad shielded. That will help you out, no matter what.

If the interference disappears after you shut down the power, bring each circuit online until the offending one is noted. Then find out what device could be causing that while on the circuit. I've never heard of a water meter doing that; it sounds a little weird.

Yikes, something sjust hit me. Did this just start not too long ago...?

WSRI-88.7 FM just moved their transmitter in your backyard. And jacked up the power as well (we can get it in DeKalb now). THAT would cause problems with 7. And especially channels 5 and 6.

FSugino

08-24-08, 05:54 PM

And we'll kick it off this weekend with "Cinderella Man" at 6pm. There more to come once the fall season comes full circle. Stay tuned for details..........

Did this happen? I caught a few seconds while flipping through the dial and Cinderella Man was SD.

pgartung

08-24-08, 06:12 PM

Yikes, something sjust hit me. Did this just start not too long ago...?

WRSE-88.7 FM just moved their transmitter in your backyard. And jacked up the power as well (we can get it in DeKalb now). THAT would cause problems with 7. And especially channels 5 and 6.

This started a few months ago. I used to get channel 6 and channel 7 with little interference. Now both are wiped out. I was thinking of trying a stronger FM notch filter.

I thought the interference was the water meter because the tv set closest to it had the worst interference. Maybe that set just has the most sensitive tuner and is getting overdriven by the FM signal.

I am pretty sure the contractor used RG-6 when my house was built. The cable has 1 braid and 1 foil.

pgartung

08-24-08, 07:00 PM

Yikes, something sjust hit me. Did this just start not too long ago...?

WRSE-88.7 FM just moved their transmitter in your backyard. And jacked up the power as well (we can get it in DeKalb now). THAT would cause problems with 7. And especially channels 5 and 6.

Ding-Ding-Ding Give that man a prize.

I turned off everything in the house except the TV. The interference is still there. I tuned my receiver to 88.7 and set the TV to channel 6. Through the static I would hear the music from 88.7 every few seconds. I live a few hundred yards from a tower with many antennas on it. I did not realize that a FM transmitter was there too. I guess I am getting spillover from 88.7 on channel 5 & 6 and channel 7 is picking up a second harmonic of 88.7.

Since the FM trap on my pre-amp does not remove the interference, what should I try next. I saw a tunable FM trap on the SolidSignal website.

tvropro

08-24-08, 07:34 PM

The older stuff isn't except for the white foam. I've seen it, and I'm amazed it carries signal as well as it does (which is to say, not very well).

I have never seen a RG59U cable without at least a braid for a shield, and I've seen different 75 ohm tv coax since about 1970. There has to be a ground connection which is the braid. What type of cable did you see? Are you sure it was 75 ohm tv coax? I know there was a 72 ohm cable a long time ago, is that what you may have seen? I'm curious of what you saw, explain in depth a bit more. Thanks.

tvropro

08-24-08, 07:45 PM

Ding-Ding-Ding Give that man a prize.

I turned off everything in the house except the TV. The interference is still there. I tuned my receiver to 88.7 and set the TV to channel 6. Through the static I would hear the music from 88.7 every few seconds. I live a few hundred yards from a tower with many antennas on it. I did not realize that a FM transmitter was there too. I guess I am getting spillover from 88.7 on channel 5 & 6 and channel 7 is picking up a second harmonic of 88.7.

Since the FM trap on my pre-amp does not remove the interference, what should I try next. I saw a tunable FM trap on the SolidSignal website.

A cutting torch to the tower :rolleyes: If your right next door to a transmitter it may beyond an FM trap to do the job. You are probably getting front end overload. The only way to stop that is to shield the circuits in the TV and pad down the FM band tremendously. Next thing I would try is to put 4 FM traps in line. Id shoot for 120db of attenuation. You have a insane amount of FM overload and you need to attenuate the living daylights out of it. The second harmonic if your getting it will be very tough to cure, since if you trap out too much information around 174mhz channel 7 will be gone also. I still like the cutting torch idea though :)

Something else just came to mind... is the preamp in a metal box both at the antenna and the power supply? This is a must in your situation.

Rammitinski

08-24-08, 08:32 PM

Just make sure you cut it down so it falls in the right direction.

pgartung

08-24-08, 09:03 PM

A cutting torch to the tower :rolleyes: If your right next door to a transmitter it may beyond an FM trap to do the job. You are probably getting front end overload. The only way to stop that is to shield the circuits in the TV and pad down the FM band tremendously. Next thing I would try is to put 4 FM traps in line. Id shoot for 120db of attenuation. You have a insane amount of FM overload and you need to attenuate the living daylights out of it. The second harmonic if your getting it will be very tough to cure, since if you trap out too much information around 174mhz channel 7 will be gone also. I still like the cutting torch idea though :)

Something else just came to mind... is the preamp in a metal box both at the antenna and the power supply? This is a must in your situation.

I have a Spartan 3 preamp which has a plastic case. Time for some more aluminum foil :). It does have a tunable trap. I was able to tune the trap with a small set directly attached to the preamp in the attic so that the picture on 7 was viewable with a small band of interference that rolled down the screen. Channel 6 is a lost cause -- not that I wanted it anyway. All I get is the black and white distortion and the audio from the radio station. The living room set has a viewable channel 7 but every few seconds it overloads with the black and white waves.

I am thinking that a VHF high-low joiner-spitter with the antenna connected to the VHF HI input might give enough attenuation on the FM band to allow my antennas to pick up 7 with no interference.

I thought that power supply RF noise knocking out digital 3 was the worst of my problems and I would be golden after the transition. Looks like I will be gaining CBS but losing ABC.

It is a good thing that I have Uverse. This OTA DXing from my attic is just a hobby :D. The wife just does not understand all of the interest since we will never drop cable/sat/iptv because of channels like SciFi, Nickelodeon Food Network, HGTV ....

____________________________________________________________ __

Update: Wrapping the pre-amp in foil seems to help a little bit. The interference is down to a usable level on channel 7. It remains to be seen how this will affect digital reception.

sebenste

08-24-08, 11:51 PM

I have never seen a RG59U cable without at least a braid for a shield, and I've seen different 75 ohm tv coax since about 1970. There has to be a ground connection which is the braid. What type of cable did you see? Are you sure it was 75 ohm tv coax? I know there was a 72 ohm cable a long time ago, is that what you may have seen? I'm curious of what you saw, explain in depth a bit more. Thanks.

Sure. Well, some of my attic installs I have done over the years involved the original cabling, which was RG-59. The thin stuff...installed in the late 1960s through 1970s. I don't think it was RG-72; never even heard of it. Of course, there's the classic 300 ohm twin-lead...I hated that stuff. I used to think ot was great because there were so many strands to carry the signal. But I can recall at least a few where I had just the white foam and then the black cover over the cable. Others did have the foil/braid.

And as I have yanked that stuff out, I can see why so many people had problems with analog reception over the years and are dissing OTA now. RG-6 quad shielded (and especially tri-shielded from Belden) is light years above what they had back then. If they didn't get ghosting from buildings, it was a wonder they got anything at all sometimes.

sebenste

08-24-08, 11:53 PM

I have a Spartan 3 preamp which has a plastic case. Time for some more aluminum foil :). It does have a tunable trap. I was able to tune the trap with a small set directly attached to the preamp in the attic so that the picture on 7 was viewable with a small band of interference that rolled down the screen. Channel 6 is a lost cause -- not that I wanted it anyway. All I get is the black and white distortion and the audio from the radio station. The living room set has a viewable channel 7 but every few seconds it overloads with the black and white waves.

I am thinking that a VHF high-low joiner-spitter with the antenna connected to the VHF HI input might give enough attenuation on the FM band to allow my antennas to pick up 7 with no interference.

I thought that power supply RF noise knocking out digital 3 was the worst of my problems and I would be golden after the transition. Looks like I will be gaining CBS but losing ABC.

It is a good thing that I have Uverse. This OTA DXing from my attic is just a hobby :D. The wife just does not understand all of the interest since we will never drop cable/sat/iptv because of channels like SciFi, Nickelodeon Food Network, HGTV ....

____________________________________________________________ __

Update: Wrapping the pre-amp in foil seems to help a little bit. The interference is down to a usable level on channel 7. It remains to be seen how this will affect digital reception.

It will affect it. Wow, you have a nasty case of FM signal overload (front end overload, as we techies call it) on your hands.
I would do these two things to help you:

1. Replace all RG-6 standard dual-shield with quad-shielded cable.
2. Get a 2nd tunable FM trap, and place it just before the cable goes into the TV. That should help significantly.
3. I cannot remember for sure (you downtown engineering doodz, ie HVS, help me out here), but if you have an FM station interfering with your TV, they have (had?) to give you an FM trap, for free. Air1's number is 888-YES-AIR1. Be sure to tell them what station is interfering (WSRI-FM 88.7, licensed to Sugar Grove).

Here's their brodcast pattern:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=FM1243101.html

Edit: Corrected 88.7 FM's call sign to WSRI, with apologies to WRSE Elmhurst!

tvropro

08-25-08, 07:50 AM

____________________________________________________________ __

Update: Wrapping the pre-amp in foil seems to help a little bit. The interference is down to a usable level on channel 7. It remains to be seen how this will affect digital reception.

This proves your getting front end overload that's causing ingress RFI into the pre amp on top of what is coming down the cable. I would put another FM trap (this one tunable) ahead of the preamp to pad down the monster coming down the pipe. (you want to pad the FM down as much as possible before ANY amplification) Then run a good QS coax (like Belden) make sure your connector grounds are tight (use long ferrel or compression F56 connectors)

goaliebob99

08-25-08, 12:15 PM

It will affect it. Wow, you have a nasty case of FM signal overload (front end overload, as we techies call it) on your hands.
I would do these two things to help you:

1. Replace all RG-6 standard dual-shield with quad-shielded cable.
2. Get a 2nd tunable FM trap, and place it just before the cable goes into the TV. That should help significantly.
3. I cannot remember for sure (you downtown engineering doodz, ie HVS, help me out here), but if you have an FM station interfering with your TV, they have (had?) to give you an FM trap, for free. Air1's number is 888-YES-AIR1. Be sure to tell them what station is interfering (WSRI-FM 88.7, licensed to Sugar Grove).

Here's their brodcast pattern:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=FM1243101.html

Edit: Corrected 88.7 FM's call sign to WSRI, with apologies to WRSE Elmhurst!

I have the same issue here with 9fm at 99.9. Their tower blasts in as its only located within a couple of miles from my house.

On an unreleated note: How is this possible and does it look good? Maybe this explains how WCIU is looking so good :D.. Is it possible to have all the signals multiplexed at some baseline level and then go up the antenna to do this? Also, Im offically on my way to looking for a job if any station engeneers is looking to higher a helping hand, I would be willing to take any fcc tests needed.. Allready passed my ham radio stuff and have lots of experance in RF Engneering from the military.

Copied from satguys.

http://www.hdtvok.com/2006/11/29/k/#more-3139

I can't find the link to the original story but KXII in the Ada, OK/ Sherman TX dma is now providing 2 hd streams and 1 sd stream in space and bandwidth of 1 regular digital channel allotment. They have provided CBS HD on 12.1 since their conversion to digital then added upn now mynetwork subchannel to 12.2. Just last summer they added Fox to 12.3 since this dma does not have a fox affiliate. This last weekend they switched to some new equipment from Harmonics that now allows them to broadcast 2 HD channels and 1 SD channel at the same time. Surprisingly the picture on the 3 channels looked really good while I was visiting my mother at our other house. There were no breakups on either of the hd feeds during the football games and sd didn't look any worse than it did before.

Edit found the original press release
http://www.harmonicinc.com/ah_press_...ext.cfm?ID=646

hvs10trk

08-25-08, 04:03 PM

I have the same issue here with 9fm at 99.9. Their tower blasts in as its only located within a couple of miles from my house.

On an unreleated note: How is this possible and does it look good? Maybe this explains how WCIU is looking so good :D.. Is it possible to have all the signals multiplexed at some baseline level and then go up the antenna to do this? Also, Im offically on my way to looking for a job if any station engeneers is looking to higher a helping hand, I would be willing to take any fcc tests needed.. Allready passed my ham radio stuff and have lots of experance in RF Engneering from the military.

Copied from satguys.

http://www.hdtvok.com/2006/11/29/k/#more-3139

I can't find the link to the original story but KXII in the Ada, OK/ Sherman TX dma is now providing 2 hd streams and 1 sd stream in space and bandwidth of 1 regular digital channel allotment. They have provided CBS HD on 12.1 since their conversion to digital then added upn now mynetwork subchannel to 12.2. Just last summer they added Fox to 12.3 since this dma does not have a fox affiliate. This last weekend they switched to some new equipment from Harmonics that now allows them to broadcast 2 HD channels and 1 SD channel at the same time. Surprisingly the picture on the 3 channels looked really good while I was visiting my mother at our other house. There were no breakups on either of the hd feeds during the football games and sd didn't look any worse than it did before.

Edit found the original press release
http://www.harmonicinc.com/ah_press_...ext.cfm?ID=646

Yikes, 2 HD and 1 SD. I shoulda tried that out when we tested our new Harmonics gear. Its possible to do, provided the 2 HD's are 720P. 1080i is not that forgiving. With Harmonics newest encoders you can get away with quite a bit. We tested our new encoders far enough to make any engineer do a double take. :D

goaliebob99

08-25-08, 06:31 PM

Yikes, 2 HD and 1 SD. I shoulda tried that out when we tested our new Harmonics gear. Its possible to do, provided the 2 HD's are 720P. 1080i is not that forgiving. With Harmonics newest encoders you can get away with quite a bit. We tested our new encoders far enough to make any engineer do a double take. :D

According to the OP they are running CBS at 1080I and Fox at 720P. And the sub is Mynetwork. There are going to be some disapointed wrestling fans in that market when the WWE goes to MY Network, Fortunatly here Fox has enough sence to keep WPWR going in HD sence the investment has allready been made. I applaud them for that and cant wait to see how good it looks on their blowtorch sig. I just wish they would go back to 1080I though. I dont think there would be enough room to do My Network as a 3rd HD channel as 2 is pushing the limit.

zqxthree

08-26-08, 08:14 AM

I wrote:

From: viewerfeedback@cbslocal.com [mailto:viewerfeedback@cbslocal.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 5:21 PM
To: Rodriguez, Paul S
Subject: Complaint - Technical/Reception Issue

This afternoon reception on digital 2.1 is terrible, frequent breakups of both audio and video, signal meter is going crazy. In the past we have had decent reception; there have been no changes in antenna, distribution amplifier, or receivers. Other channels are fine. What's wrong?

They replied:

Subject: HD Reception Problem
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 06:19:42 -0400
From: "Rodriguez, Paul S" <psrodriguez@cbs.com>

Thank you for your recent inquiry. We had been experiencing a defective HD transmitter on our end, if you are still experiencing difficulties, please get back to me.

Sincerely,

Paul S. Rodriguez
WBBM-TV Chicago

A little information, but a month late!

pgartung

08-26-08, 02:07 PM

I spoke with an engineer from Air1, the corporation that owns WSRI 88.7. They are going to send me an RF filter for each of my sets and my pre-amp. Thanks for the tip Gilbert.

Update:

Got the 5 RF traps from the radio station on Thursday. They are profession grade and tuned for 88.7. I inserted all 5 between just before the antenna and I do not see the interference on analog 7. This bodes well for digital 7 next February.

dmaster

08-26-08, 04:22 PM

Acteng

08-27-08, 10:34 PM

sebenste

08-27-08, 11:02 PM

Starting at about 9:00 tonight extreme dropouts, pixelation, and black screens on digital channels 2, 5, 7, 9, 50 and some others. Signal strength is about half of what I usually get.

Normally it's rock solid on my Tivo HD and rooftop antenna. Most channels are 80%+ on the signal meter. Same deal using the ATSC tuner in my panny LCD as well. Can anyone else confirm, or did my setup just decide to take a dump tonight?

Batavia 35mi west of transmitters
Antennas Direct V21 on the roof
100' RG6 quad direct to the receiver, no splitters, 1 grounding block, compression connectors

I've been flipping through stations from South Bend, Milwaukee, and I see Madison and Quad Cities are pounding in as well. Significant tropo ducting (ie, "skip" of signals from all over) is occurring tonight, and interference on the analog and digital channels is occurring as well. I haven't had 7.X much of the night as 52 analog from northwest of Milwaukee on analog booms in...

longwong

08-27-08, 11:25 PM

Most of the DT stations here in Arlington Heights have also been tempered as much as 10-20% on the signal meter as well, but channel 26 is down by almost 30%. The weaklings on 23 and 62 have disappeared altogether for the time being.

veets

08-28-08, 01:11 AM

Same thing here - 2.1, 5.x, 7.x, and 26.x are drifting in and out. This is the first time I have seen this so far this summer. Looking forward to analog going bye-bye in six months.

hvs10trk

08-28-08, 05:57 AM

I was getting WBBM analog audio on my HT while sitting at the train station yesterday morning at 6am. (45 miles as the crow flies) It was clear as day!!!

Acteng

08-28-08, 09:26 AM

Channel 11.x is is pretty much gone and the "signal strength" meter is still jumping wildly between 0 and 60%. Other stations are more stable, but still showing some pixelation and dropouts. Is my V21 antenna just not directional enough and getting interference from distant analog/digital stations? I've been OTA HD for a couple of years and not seen it this bad before.

jldet5

08-28-08, 10:04 AM

Acteng

08-28-08, 12:19 PM

Same thing here - 2.1, 5.x, 7.x, and 26.x are drifting in and out. This is the first time I have seen this so far this summer. Looking forward to analog going bye-bye in six months.

Will the analog shutdown improve some of the interference problems we've been seeing from stations in other cities?

surf_fun85

08-28-08, 02:20 PM

Will the analog shutdown improve some of the interference problems we've been seeing from stations in other cities?

Most likely yes

surf_fun85

08-28-08, 02:25 PM

If someone is curious
Satellite Dishes are allready up atop on the New (CBS2 Broadcasting Center) at 2 W. Washington :thumbs up :)

natebomb503

08-28-08, 08:17 PM

My apologies if this was asked an answered but I couldn't find anything during my searches.

Can anyone tell me why I am not getting DD 5.1 when I watch the Bears games on Fox HD on 32-1?

kevin j

08-28-08, 08:51 PM

The game's not being broadcast in 5.1

sebenste

08-28-08, 10:38 PM

Will the analog shutdown improve some of the interference problems we've been seeing from stations in other cities?

Absolutely yes.

Rammitinski

08-29-08, 12:45 AM

Absolutely yes.God, I hope so. This has been terrible lately.

tvropro

08-29-08, 06:08 AM

God, I hope so. This has been terrible lately.

The spectrum is jammed up with too many channels on the air between digital and analog. The original allocation and spacing plans to avoid interference has been thrown out the window currently. Mother nature is just doing it's thing with tropo and causing havoc because the old spacing rules currently don't apply. Once analog is gone there will be some relief. Although I believe there will be a lot more problems then ever before because digital wants all or nothing. Marginal signals that were fully watchable on analog will be in and out on digital. So much for technology.:(

Acteng

08-29-08, 10:23 AM

Although I believe there will be a lot more problems then ever before because digital wants all or nothing. Marginal signals that were fully watchable on analog will be in and out on digital. So much for technology.:(

Agreed. In my location simple rabbit ears or any indoor antenna just won't cut it with digital, not even with the latest greatest ATSC tuner. In my experience reception is unreliable unless you've got a good antenna on the roof and a careful coax run to the receivers. In contrast analog is less picky and degrades so... gracefully.

Anyone else think that the analog shutdown is gonna be a boon for cable/sat?

Is there a one-day analog shutdown test day coming up before Feb? I thought I read somewhere that it will be this fall.

longwong

08-29-08, 12:08 PM

carlhirsch

08-29-08, 01:00 PM

The transition to HD has actually encouraged me to cut my Comcast cable and go with OTA HD broadcasts through VMC and the 08 TV pack. So far I'm very pleased with it.

Now if I could just pick up WBBM...

Rammitinski

08-29-08, 01:06 PM

I've not been receiving some channels - mostly WCIU and Pax digital - at all a lot of the times very late at night the past week. I mean absolutely no signal strength registering whatsoever.

The older Sony tuner on the main TV is usually better, but the new CM-7000 I have on late at night in the other room is so darned sensitive that it's picking up channels from everywhere. I don't know if it's a blessing or a curse. I'm even receiving stations from downstate IL over 150 miles away on occasion.

Have any of the local channels been completely out of commision during the overnight hours? Because that's what it seems like at times. Used to be that there would be no picture and the needle would be jumping up and down. Now it's nothing at all.

Trip in VA

08-29-08, 01:10 PM

I've not been receiving some channels - mostly WCIU and Pax digital - at all a lot of the times very late at night the past week. I mean absolutely no signal strength registering whatsoever.

WCIU-DT has to fight off WKOW-27 analog. If it's strong enough, it will just obliterate the digital.

Not sure about WCPX-DT 43, maybe you're seeing interference from WYZZ analog or WWRS-DT?

- Trip

Rammitinski

08-29-08, 01:19 PM

Trip in VA

08-29-08, 01:30 PM

Yeah, I was aware of that with 27, but even this seems unusual. Normally, that's the only station I've ever had any trouble like that with (except now that WOCH analog 41 has fixed their transmitter, I can just barely receive WIFR-DT out of Rockford. But that's an all-the-time situation).

Funny thing is, I can barely ever see anything on my tuners from Madison when I check. Sometimes faint, but not enough, it seems, to do that much damage. And of all the places I've received digital signals from, a Madison station has never once shown it's face on any of my ATSC tuners. But the Chicago digitals are very strong here (mostly 95-100%), and I understand that some conflict.

If you see the Chicago analogs really well, then I'd imagine you wouldn't see much of Madison.

(I assume you probably already know this, but it's for the benefit of others)

WISC-DT 50 conflicts with WPWR.
WMTV-DT 19 conflicts with WGN-DT.
WHA-DT 20 conflicts with WYCC.
WKOW-DT 26 conflicts with WCIU.
WMSN-DT 11 conflicts with WTTW.
WBUW-DT 32 conflicts with WFLD.

This time of year is usually really good for tropospheric ducting, so it's quite possible you're seeing really, really strong signals from out-of-market. At least two days over the summer this year I lost my local Fox's digital to an analog NBC from another market. My UHF analogs back home are almost constantly snowy now.

- Trip

jmfordpromo

08-29-08, 02:30 PM

If I read the FCC database correctly, it looks like WCIU, WXFT, and WJYS all had their applications approved to increase their power post transition.

I also had a few comments/questions regarding information in the Broadcast Power and Locartion section:

1. On the first page shouldn't WFBT be changed to WMEU?

2. Isn't Channel 2's tranmitter moving to Sears Tower in 2009 when they take over channel 11's transmitter?

3. When will WMEU-DT be on the air?

4. When will This TV (26.4) be on the air? Different stories say either 10/01 or 11/01.

5. Has anyone heard anything more on the dot two network? Per the winkipedia article, Fox in Tampa has signed up. Based on their statement that dot two would send a 720p signal and the information on the Harmonics equipement being able to handle two HD stations, I'm wondering if WFLD or WPWR will take it.

jldet5

08-29-08, 02:48 PM

IMHO I think that most everybody else is going to defect to cable by the time of the analog shutdown. In an apartment you really have no choice, and rabbit ears won't cut it except for those moderately close to the transmitters who have decent line of sight.

I think it will go the other way. I'm way out in Algonquin and have been getting a great signal for several years now. Granted WBBM is an occasional miss but that will be fixed in February. When people catch on to the quality and low price they'll be headed for the antenna shack to pick up their locals.

When I was in a somewhat large apartment building we had a shared antenna system. Plugged in just like cable but it was a shared antenna on the roof.

Rammitinski

08-29-08, 02:54 PM

5. Has anyone heard anything more on the dot two network? Per the winkipedia article, Fox in Tampa has signed up. Based on their statement that dot two would send a 720p signal and the information on the Harmonics equipement being able to handle two HD stations, I'm wondering if WFLD or WPWR will take it.If it does turn out to be one of those two, I sure hope it's WPWR, because there ain't a damned thing I watch on that channel.

Rammitinski

08-29-08, 02:57 PM

..it's quite possible you're seeing really, really strong signals from out-of-market.When my signal strength meter reads 100% from a station out of Peoria, IL, I would definitely say so. :)

longwong

08-29-08, 03:04 PM

You're very fortunate to have a shared antenna. The only place around here where I've seen shared antennas in an apartment complex is in Palatine. When you get to the "classier" complexes, the only thing they allow for is a D*TV to hang off your patio, or your other choice is cable. A growing number of residential subdivisions also seem to allow only the small dish on the outside. Contrast this with the older sections of Arlington Heights (read 1950's to 1960's era development), where you encounter an outdoor mast antenna every few houses or so.

I think it will go the other way. I'm way out in Algonquin and have been getting a great signal for several years now. Granted WBBM is an occasional miss but that will be fixed in February. When people catch on to the quality and low price they'll be headed for the antenna shack to pick up their locals.

When I was in a somewhat large apartment building we had a shared antenna system. Plugged in just like cable but it was a shared antenna on the roof.

Rammitinski

08-29-08, 03:17 PM

You're very fortunate to have a shared antenna. The only place around here where I've seen shared antennas in an apartment complex is in Palatine.Had one here where I lived a few years back, and it worked great (see lots of them out here, in fact - apartments and townhouses). It wasn't a particularly upscale complex.

sebenste

08-29-08, 05:20 PM

If I read the FCC database correctly, it looks like WCIU, WXFT, and WJYS all had their applications approved to increase their power post transition.

I also had a few comments/questions regarding information in the Broadcast Power and Locartion section:

1. On the first page shouldn't WFBT be changed to WMEU?

26-4 is still called "FBT", even though it doesn't transmit over the air
on analog anymore.

2. Isn't Channel 2's tranmitter moving to Sears Tower in 2009 when they take over channel 11's transmitter?

HVS? Whaddya know? :D

4. When will This TV (26.4) be on the air? Different stories say either 10/01 or 11/01.

11/1.

5. Has anyone heard anything more on the dot two network? Per the winkipedia article, Fox in Tampa has signed up. Based on their statement that dot two would send a 720p signal and the information on the Harmonics equipment being able to handle two HD stations, I'm wondering if WFLD or WPWR will take it.

Nope. All that is known is that the .2 network has a confirmed outlet in Chicago. Where it will be...who knows.

surf_fun85

08-29-08, 06:53 PM

So i noticed that WGN will be reducing their Broadcast power on 2/17/09 about 45 Kw reduction ?

dcraig500

08-29-08, 09:08 PM

Looks like tonight is going to be another great tropo night...
I'm by the Chicago/Evanston border (60626) right against the lake, and WNDU 16 and WSBT 22 analog look near perfect, along with WXMI 17 in Grand Rapids. I just did a rescan on my DTT-901 and lots of Milwaukee and South Bend are screaming in. A couple nights ago I locked KWQC 6-1 out of the Quad Cities - thats a big distance from me!

I'm using a CM-4221 antenna with an 7777 Preamp. I know tropo causes serious interference issues, but it sure is interesting to watch news 200 miles away. Now try THAT with Comcast.

sebenste

08-30-08, 01:09 AM

sebenste

08-30-08, 01:10 AM

So i noticed that WGN will be reducing their Broadcast power on 2/17/09 about 45 Kw reduction ?

They're going higher up on Sears, so they have to lower their power a tad. You shouldn't see a difference in reception, except maybe in the far boonies where it will be a bit better.

dcraig500

08-30-08, 04:38 AM

LOL! I'm seeing lots of Madison and South Bend out here in DeKalb. Milwaukee is not coming in, but I am seeing 35 analog from Grand Rapids over WWTO-TV in Ottawa.

Hey is that analog 35 WGVU? I'm seeing that also, but as I rotate my 4221 (its indoors) WSW, I can see WWTO, fairly clear! Normally I can receive most of the South Bend analogs and digitals day/night (I'm on the 8th floor), but tonight everything from South Bend is near 100%. As far as Milwaukee, I usually get 6-1 WITI day/night and 18-1 CW but tonight I can see WISN and WTMJ, which I normally have a signal on but can't lock. I was hoping with the tropo tonight I could lock digitals from Rockford, but not a hint of RF from WIFR, WREX or WTVO. Occassionaly I can receive a decent analog signal on 17 WTVO and 39 WQRF analog, but 17 is a fight for me with WXMI. Too much co-channel to get digitals from Rockford from this location I think, at least on most nights.

Now if I could only get rid of these danged House Centipedes that seem to plague my apartment, I'd be all set. Or maybe I should hang the dead ones on my 4221 as decorations :rolleyes:

hvs10trk

08-30-08, 07:44 AM

I also had a few comments/questions regarding information in the Broadcast Power and Locartion section:

3. When will WMEU-DT be on the air?
Good question, I have been wondering that myself.

4. When will This TV (26.4) be on the air? Different stories say either 10/01 or 11/01.

We are scheduled for 10/1 here in Chicago and this will be a testing period to work out all the bugs. 11/1 is the big launch.

zippyfrog

08-30-08, 08:47 AM

Is NBC adding a third subchannel? On my Titan TV screen, there is another sub channel listed now that says programming unavailable. Is this a sign of things to come?

Trip in VA

08-30-08, 10:11 AM

Is NBC adding a third subchannel? On my Titan TV screen, there is another sub channel listed now that says programming unavailable. Is this a sign of things to come?

I remember hearing that Universal Sports is supposed to be added to NBC O&O WCAU-DT in Philadelphia. Maybe they'll be adding it in Chicago as well.

- Trip

sebenste

08-30-08, 02:09 PM

Hey is that analog 35 WGVU? I'm seeing that also, but as I rotate my 4221 (its indoors) WSW, I can see WWTO, fairly clear! Normally I can receive most of the South Bend analogs and digitals day/night (I'm on the 8th floor), but tonight everything from South Bend is near 100%. As far as Milwaukee, I usually get 6-1 WITI day/night and 18-1 CW but tonight I can see WISN and WTMJ, which I normally have a signal on but can't lock. I was hoping with the tropo tonight I could lock digitals from Rockford, but not a hint of RF from WIFR, WREX or WTVO. Occassionaly I can receive a decent analog signal on 17 WTVO and 39 WQRF analog, but 17 is a fight for me with WXMI. Too much co-channel to get digitals from Rockford from this location I think, at least on most nights.

Now if I could only get rid of these danged House Centipedes that seem to plague my apartment, I'd be all set. Or maybe I should hang the dead ones on my 4221 as decorations :rolleyes:

Hi Craig,

Yep, that's WGVU! When WWTO-DT used to go off the air for days at a crack, our local Comcast system picked that station up, OR a station in northwest Kentucky! In order to get it out here clearly, they had to put a UHF antenna up on their headend tower. I can see what appears to be a ChannelMaster 4221 400' up their tower... :eek:

Anyway, wait until the analogs sign off, you should be getting a lot more stuff when that happens.

On another note, I, too, notice 5.3's entry on Titan TV. September 1 is a good time to rearrange or add channels. If 5.3 does come about, I promise that 5.1 will, um, not look very good. :(

BTW, for those on the north shore...PBS Milwaukee is completely changing around their subchannels. PBS-HD moves to 10.1, all the subchannels go to channels 36.X. PBS Kids gets dropped; PBS Traffic(!) gets added. All on 9/1/08.

Rammitinski

08-30-08, 02:51 PM

I remember hearing that Universal Sports is supposed to be added to NBC O&O WCAU-DT in Philadelphia. Maybe they'll be adding it in Chicago as well.- TripSports on a subchannel :rolleyes:.

Completely worthless, and just ruins the main one more. A LOT more if they really want to give it enough bandwith to make it at all watchable.

As if the Olympics PQ on NBC wasn't disgraceful enough already. I think you can just totally forget about watching football on NBC now once they add that.

Hang on to and start stockpiling as many as those old, smaller, 480i CRT's as you can folks, because sooner than later those are the only things you're going to be able to watch OTA on halfway comfortably. I find myself watching my 50" plasma less and less these days (just "special events"), and watching the 32" analog set more often and actually enjoying it more. But pretty soon I'm gonna have to downgrade even that to a 27" I think.

My SD Dish channels have just taken another super-nosedive this past week (I don't know what they did to them, but they're pretty near unwatchable altogether now), but I always had OTA to fall back on, and I mostly watched that anyway. But that's becoming progressively not so anymore. Gonna hafta start reading more again, I guess.

Probably won't see me around here anymore then, but all of the "more quantity and less quality" jokers at least won't have me raining on their parade anymore.

And the people with a vested interest in this in general here won't have to deal with me anymore, either. Should make their agenda easier. All I can say is, be careful what you wish for, because even on your little 27" and under sets you will eventually notice it, just as you've been letting the networks get away with exceedingly plastering and flashing more and more crap all over the screen while you're trying to concentrate and watch something.

If any of you dedicated OTA'ers ever actually saw what satellite SD looks like now (and digital cable ain't far behind), and realized that OTA is headed the same way, you might not be so enthusiastic. But you will find out soon enough, because it's inevitable now. You're gonna really be wishing you had analog back then.

Trip in VA

08-30-08, 02:52 PM

BTW, for those on the north shore...PBS Milwaukee is completely changing around their subchannels. PBS-HD moves to 10.1, all the subchannels go to channels 36.X. PBS Kids gets dropped; PBS World (MHZ Worldview?) and PBS Traffic(!) get added.

Reading the announcement, I don't think it's MHz WorldView that's showing up on 36-3, I think that's PBS World.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PBS_World

Despite the similar names, they're different services. PBS World is operated by WGBH and WNET, while MHz WorldView is operated by Commonwealth Public Broadcasting (controls the PBS in Richmond and Charlottesville, VA, in addition to OTA affiliates for MHz in the DC area).

MHz WorldView shows a lot of programming from foreign sources, while PBS World shows a lot of reruns of PBS shows.

- Trip

Rammitinski

08-30-08, 03:19 PM

....on 36-3, I think that's PBS World.If it's what used to be on 10.1, it is.

As far as PBS Traffic getting added, I wonder which one of the 4 existing weather subchannels it will be? Or will it still be all of them? Considering they're all showing the exact, same thing (just radar - with slightly different audio), wouldn't one be enough? Like maybe the one with the NOAA audio? Do we really need one with jazz music playing, too? (And I don't want to hear how they consume very little bandwith - it's just the principle.)

sebenste

08-30-08, 03:25 PM

If it's what used to be on 10.1, it is.

Cool, thanks for the correction. Duly noted above.

sebenste

08-30-08, 03:50 PM

Sports on a subchannel :rolleyes:.

Tornado warning for Crystal Lake...and here we go! :D

Completely worthless, and just ruins the main one more. A LOT more if they really want to give it enough bandwith to make it at all watchable.

As if the Olympics PQ on NBC wasn't disgraceful enough already. I think you can just totally forget about watching football on NBC now once they add that.

Hang on to and start stockpiling as many as those old, smaller, 480i CRT's as you can folks, because sooner than later those are the only things you're going to be able to watch OTA on halfway comfortably. I find myself watching my 50" plasma less and less these days (just "special events"), and watching the 32" analog set more often and actually enjoying it more. But pretty soon I'm gonna have to downgrade even that to a 27" I think.

My SD Dish channels have just taken another super-nosedive this past week (I don't know what they did to them, but they're pretty near unwatchable altogether now), but I always had OTA to fall back on, and I mostly watched that anyway. But that's becoming progressively not so anymore. Gonna hafta start reading more again, I guess.

Probably won't see me around here anymore then, but all of the "more quantity and less quality" jokers at least won't have me raining on their parade anymore.

And the people with a vested interest in this in general here won't have to deal with me anymore, either. Should make their agenda easier. All I can say is, be careful what you wish for, because even on your little 27" and under sets you will eventually notice it, just as you've been letting the networks get away with exceedingly plastering and flashing more and more crap all over the screen while you're trying to concentrate and watch something.

If any of you dedicated OTA'ers ever actually saw what satellite SD looks like now (and digital cable ain't far behind), and realized that OTA is headed the same way, you might not be so enthusiastic. But you will find out soon enough, because it's inevitable now. You're gonna really be wishing you had analog back then.

I'm going to visit a friend who has Dish tonight. He just got a new 37" LCD from LG, and it has really great quality. Well, maybe. He just has Dish SD service for now, and I am hooking him up tonight with a rooftop antenna if all goes well. I'll be able to compare OTA with Dish locals directly.

I agree if bandwidth isn't managed properly, the quality will make YouTube look like high-def. I'm all for more quality channels without dirupting the main channel, which, if done right, can be done. But NBC, as we all know, doesn't do well with the 19.3 mb/sec they're allocated now, although much of that problem is the uplink to the stations, as opposed to dynamic bit allocation to the channels you have.

The upshot: Channels 44, 60 and 66 all look great in SD digital, better than 5.1 during fast-moving sports. I hope that 5.3 is a mistake...

Rammitinski

08-30-08, 04:20 PM

I'm going to visit a friend who has Dish tonight. He just got a new 37" LCD from LG, and it has really great quality. Well, maybe. He just has Dish SD service for now, and I am hooking him up tonight with a rooftop antenna if all goes well. I'll be able to compare OTA with Dish locals directly.Oh, anything, SD or HD will still look better OTA than from Dish at this point. Especially if you've got both right there to A/B.

But at least you can tell me if those SD Dish channels look as bad as what I've been seeing here all week, and you can ask your friend if he's noticed any difference, too (especially if he's had his old TV hooked up with it for most of this past week, so he's been watching it on the same display). I'm seeing a lot more fuzziness, softness and blocking than I ever did before. At least I never saw much blocking on the SD until recently.

It just looks to me like a classic case of cutting the bitrate more, because the more they've done that over the years, the more it was getting this way. I think they have been adding a few more channels lately. At least it looks that way from my guide. A lot of foreign ones, especially.

Trip in VA

08-30-08, 04:31 PM

As far as PBS Traffic getting added, I wonder which one of the 4 existing weather subchannels it will be? Or will it still be all of them? Considering they're all showing the exact, same thing (just radar - with slightly different audio), wouldn't one be enough? Like maybe the one with the NOAA audio? Do we really need one with jazz music playing, too? (And I don't want to hear how they consume very little bandwith - it's just the principle.)

My understanding is that each one uses the exact same video feed with different audio feeds. It's like what WGN-DT used to do on 9-2, same video that 9-1 used, just used the SAP feed for the audio.

Is "MPTV Traffic" a new service? It sounds like they're taking a feed of WISDOT traffic cameras along with WISDOT audio and turning it into a subchannel. Shouldn't require much bandwidth.

- Trip

Trip in VA

08-30-08, 05:05 PM

I hope that 5.3 is a mistake...

Hate to break it to you, but all signs point to Universal Sports. I just did TitanTV for WCAU and it's showing the same thing for WCAU 10-3, and KXAS 5-3 in Dallas is listed as "Universal Sports coming soon." Both are NBC O&O stations...

Sorry. =(

- Trip

Rammitinski

08-30-08, 05:23 PM

My understanding is that each one uses the exact same video feed with different audio feeds. It's like what WGN-DT used to do on 9-2, same video that 9-1 used, just used the SAP feed for the audio.I assumed that - but like I said, what is the point?

Trip in VA

08-30-08, 05:25 PM

I assumed that - but like I said, what is the point?

I guess it keeps people from getting confused. I can almost see the promotion now. "Go to audio feed 1 for weather, audio feed 2 for jazz, or audio feed 3 for classical music!" :D Try explaining that one to viewers.

- Trip

swiat

09-02-08, 12:05 PM

Reading the announcement, I don't think it's MHz WorldView that's showing up on 36-3, I think that's PBS World.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PBS_World

Despite the similar names, they're different services. PBS World is operated by WGBH and WNET, while MHz WorldView is operated by Commonwealth Public Broadcasting (controls the PBS in Richmond and Charlottesville, VA, in addition to OTA affiliates for MHz in the DC area).

MHz WorldView shows a lot of programming from foreign sources, while PBS World shows a lot of reruns of PBS shows.

- Trip

Good. 36.1 comes in better anyhow and we already get PBS HD on 11.1 just fine. Nice to have the extra channels we don't get come in better! Good move.

andyross63

09-02-08, 05:13 PM

Wilmington NC will go 100% digital sometime next week. It's a deliberate test to see how well the message is getting out:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-10030198-93.html

There is also mention of battery powered converters. Anybody know of one? Any portable TV's with ATSC tuners yet?

goaliebob99

09-02-08, 06:49 PM

I hope that all these folks are installing new harmonics encoders so that way pq doesnt take a nose dive.. I dont think that's happening though.. This is one thing that I hope im wrong.

I dont want to see any subchannels added to WPWR as WWE is coming over there next month.. I hope they bump it up to 1080I and let it look good! :) Lots of people will be watching MY Network just because of that switch. Smackdown is moving from WGN to WPWR.

Trip in VA

09-02-08, 11:09 PM

WPWR-DT will likely stay at 720p, as that's how Fox does everything.

- Trip

sebenste

09-03-08, 12:20 AM

WPWR-DT will likely stay at 720p, as that's how Fox does everything.

- Trip

Yep. That means they could logistically add 2 subchannels ala WLS, and not have a noticeable degredation in picture quality.

With the macroblocking on WGN with their encoders and one sub, you may find you will get a better picture, even after it's converted to 720p.

Rammitinski

09-03-08, 12:43 AM

Good. 36.1 comes in better anyhow and we already get PBS HD on 11.1 just fine. Nice to have the extra channels we don't get come in better! Good move.Yeah, but 36.1 looks a lot better than our PBS-HD channel does, as it's 1080i and has no subchannels.

If you're watching on a 50" HD display as I am, believe me - you notice the difference.

dicko2

09-03-08, 09:51 AM

Hi Craig,
BTW, for those on the north shore...PBS Milwaukee is completely changing around their subchannels. PBS-HD moves to 10.1, all the subchannels go to channels 36.X. PBS Kids gets dropped; PBS Traffic(!) gets added. All on 9/1/08.

This really sucks. I dont get ch10. Ch36 just booms into Woodstock and now all I see is kiddy programming.... I want my HDTV!

-dickm

swiat

09-03-08, 01:26 PM

This really sucks. I dont get ch10. Ch36 just booms into Woodstock and now all I see is kiddy programming.... I want my HDTV!

-dickm

Can't you tune into 11-1 to get PBS DT? It's mostly the same as 10-1 now, after the recent subchannel shuffle.

20-1 has a little here and there also.

Rammitinski

09-03-08, 02:19 PM

This really sucks. I dont get ch10. Ch36 just booms into Woodstock and now all I see is kiddy programming.... I want my HDTV!

-dickmWow - didn't think they were gonna change that fast. I'll have to check that out.

Do you only have a UHF antenna or something? I thought yours was full-range? Usually, with a combo, when 36 is booming in, 10 usually comes in, too. That's sort of unusual.

Rammitinski

09-03-08, 02:21 PM

Can't you tune into 11-1 to get PBS DT? It's mostly the same as 10-1 now, after the recent subchannel shuffle.He said he wants his "HDTV", not his "HD-Lite". ;)

Falcon_77

09-03-08, 03:49 PM

There is also mention of battery powered converters. Anybody know of one? Any portable TV's with ATSC tuners yet?

I'm not aware of any such devices yet, but it sounds like a good idea. Insignia had a couple portable ATSC models but they did not perform well and I have yet to see any replacements.

My portable DTV is a laptop. A pretty expensive investment since I only use it for that purpose, unless I'm traveling.

I can't help but sigh at the continued digital switch-over wording, when analog switch-off is more appropriate. However, if we used the latter, I suppose most people would think OTA was going away completely.

I gave a converter box to a friend to use, only to discover it was going to stay unused until February.... It is in use now. :)

swiat

09-03-08, 04:12 PM

Reading the announcement, I don't think it's MHz WorldView that's showing up on 36-3, I think that's PBS World.

MHz WorldView shows a lot of programming from foreign sources, while PBS World shows a lot of reruns of PBS shows.

- Trip

I can confirm it is indeed PBS World on 36-3 not MHz like 20-3. This makes me wonder why WYIN-DT isn't showing PBS world since Create is already shown in this market. It would seem to make more sense to me.

Rammitinski

09-03-08, 05:46 PM

I can confirm it is indeed PBS World on 36-3 not MHz like 20-3.I believe that's already been established.

Maybe you missed posts # 2693 and #2694?

jmfordpromo

09-03-08, 08:47 PM

...is up and running on 5.3.

sebenste

09-03-08, 11:55 PM

...is up and running on 5.3.

Updated the first page/second post, hunkering down in a bunker, waiting for the Ramm volcano to blow its top. :D

Hey Ramm, at least you can watch WREX with only one subby now! :)

Seriously, I can't tell if they stole bits from 5.1, but 5.2 looks softer and 5.3 looks like a YouTube video!

Rammitinski

09-04-08, 12:40 AM

Just saw your post and haven't had a chance to check it out yet, but I can do it now on the 32" (just as soon as Baseball Tonight on ESPN is over). At least I can get a good idea of how bad 5.3 looks, but 5.1 might not show much difference on that TV with O'Brien right now. Have to wait to check out the other TV when there's sports on to really see.

I'm not gonna blow my top, because I already did it over that. Said all I really wanted to say then.

So does that mean 13.1 gets more bandwith now? (Yeah, that's sarcasm - I know better. But if it were true, I'd just concentrate my efforts more on getting that for NBC rather than WMAQ-DT now.)

On another note, I tried rescanning for the new Milwaukee PBS configuration earlier this evening, but I'm only getting 36.1 and 10.1. Are those other subchannels online yet?

(Okay, BT is over now, so I can check.)

Rammitinski

09-04-08, 12:57 AM

Okay, here it is -

5.3 looks pretty bad - awfully soft.

5.1 does appear a tad softer than it was before. Hard to really tell on this TV, but it appears they may even have reduced the resolution a bit (colors don't seem quite as rich, either). Won't know for sure until I can check on the other TV, though.

Time to start concentration on receiving NBC out of Rockford and Milwaukee reliably, I guess.

(What in the world is this on Leno? Brian Wilson assembles a group of musicians and clones the Beach Boys' sound perfectly, yet he totally ruins the act by insisting on singing the lead vocals himself?)

sebenste

09-04-08, 01:11 AM

So does that mean 13.1 gets more bandwith now? (Yeah, that's sarcasm - I know better. But if it were true, I'd just concentrate my efforts more on getting that for NBC rather than WMAQ-DT now.)
Awww, I'm bitterly disappointed that the lava isn't flowing from Crystal Lake. ;) I hate to say it, but I believe it IS true---13.1 should now be giving more bits to NBC HD than 5.1 is. A side-by-side comparison should confirm it. Unless WMAQ got new encoders, WREX should be better. Can you tune to 13.1 and 5.1 without moving the antenna? And then using the "last channel" feature on the remote, flip between the two rapidly to see if you can tell the difference?

On another note, I tried rescanning for the new Milwaukee PBS configuration earlier this evening, but I'm only getting 36.1 and 10.1. Are those other subchannels online yet?

(Okay, BT is over now, so I can check.)

They should be, although the Milwaukee HDTV forum reports no PSIP problems. Try again...

Rammitinski

09-04-08, 02:30 AM

Can you tune to 13.1 and 5.1 without moving the antenna?Not usually, but I can give it a try. Rather do it tomorrow though, as I'm kinda settled quietly in this other room right now. Might work with the Channel Master, but very rare with the older Sony.

I tried the Milwaukee scan earlier using the Sony DVR. I think I may have to do a complete re-scan to get them, which will delete everything I've got in there, such as WSBT, WYIN, etc. Don't really want to do that. None of the Mil. PBS subs are really that important to me, anyway.

I could try it with the Channel Master in this room now. It should work, because I just did it successfully for 5.3.

(edit: picked all of them up fine.)

Rammitinski

09-04-08, 02:58 AM

Wow - watching 5.1, and am seeing lots of artifacts (the worst being during scene transitions) that I've never seen before (during "Extra"). They have definitely watered it down more. The standard definition stuff on the 32" analog looks noticably softer than before.

I don't really watch much on this channel, but I think you can pretty much say goodbye to any sports on it for sure now.

Acteng

09-04-08, 10:31 AM

Is there any reason to believe that the subs will change post transition? Like many here I'd prefer fewer subs and more bits devoted to the main HD sub. e.g. is 11.2 going to stick around?

retromzc

09-04-08, 10:37 AM

WSNS-DT Causing Lockup
While scanning through the channels this morning all was well until I got to WSNS-DT (44.1). It completely locked up the tuner on my Sony tv. The only way to get out of the lock up was to disconnet the antenna. Once I got things running again, I tried again and the same thing happened on 44.1 - total lock up. I couldn't change channels via the remote or the set buttons. Had to disconnet the antenna again.

WMAQ-DT now looks as bad as WGN-DT since they started 5.3. I hope when WREX goes to full power on 13 that I'll be able to pick them up for NBC programming.

Rammitinski

09-04-08, 01:31 PM

WMAQ-DT now looks as bad as WGN-DT since they started 5.3.I thought my eyes weren't deceiving me. We should bombard them with calls and e-mails, like we did with WTTW, although it'll probably be useless (as it was with WTTW).

I tried, but I can't check 5.3 out on my 50" plasma, because I have to completely re-scan to get it. I'm not going to wipe out what I have unless I have to do a re-scan for some other good reason, because I'll probably never watch any of these subs anyway. Having them on the 32" CRT is good enough, because they don't look as bad on there, anyway.

Maybe if I get ambitious, I'll pull my Samsung DTB-H260F out of the closet and do a scan for it. But that box doesn't look nearly as good as my Sony, so it might be hard to gauge. It used to look just about as good, but somewhere along the line, it developed a "fuzziness" to the PQ. Cheap Asian cr*p - capacitors weren't really meant to last long.

tvropro

09-04-08, 01:53 PM

I see as time goes on that all the channels in all markets will be offering multiple subchannels. This means good bye to any quality extra bandwidth provides. It's all about quantity vs quality.

swiat

09-04-08, 02:02 PM

FYI, tropo forecast maps:
http://www.dxinfocentre.com/tropo.html

swiat

09-04-08, 02:06 PM

Why no PBS world on WYIN 56-2? here's why:

Reply from person #1:
"Excellent idea. We thought of it too! When we asked PBS they said no. "

Reply from person #2:
"Based on our status as an auxiliary PBS member station in the Chicago Market (WTTW is the primary), Lakeshore PTV is subject to limitations on what we can air. Unfortunately, PBS World is an example of one such limitation. However, this relationship also means that we have greater latitude in local scheduling and can include programs from other sources such as American Public Television, NETA and independent producers.

While for the time being we will continue airing Create on 56-2, we plan on making many changes and additions to our digital line-up as we move forward in the era of digital television.

Thank you for your feedback and for tuning in.

Best,
Kathleen K. Szot
Public Relations Coordinator
Lakeshore Public Television
219-756-5656, ext. 360
kszot@lakeshoreptv.com"

dicko2

09-04-08, 02:21 PM

Wow - didn't think they were gonna change that fast. I'll have to check that out.

Do you only have a UHF antenna or something? I thought yours was full-range? Usually, with a combo, when 36 is booming in, 10 usually comes in, too. That's sort of unusual.

I just have a small UHF yagi pointed at Milwaukee. Rats!

dicko2

09-04-08, 02:30 PM

Can't you tune into 11-1 to get PBS DT? It's mostly the same as 10-1 now, after the recent subchannel shuffle.

20-1 has a little here and there also.

Yeah I get 11-1, but for some reason the picture on 36 always seemed to have better quality. More eye-popping. Maybe it had something to do with no subchannels. They also carried several different shows than WTTW did.

20-1 usually doesnt make it all the way out to Woodstock.

I wish I could find it now, but I was reading an on-line article several weeks ago that was talking about how PBS was ending the programing split between SD and HD stations. Since most of their standard shows are filmed in HD nowadays, Thats all that would be shown. Hence, 11-1 & 11-2 would carry the same programming but 11-1 would be in HD and 11-2 would be downrez'ed in SD. I wish I could find that article now. Maybe the changes that are happening are a prelude to this change.

dicko2

09-04-08, 02:36 PM

[QUOTE=Rammitinski;14585764]On another note, I tried rescanning for the new Milwaukee PBS configuration earlier this evening, but I'm only getting 36.1 and 10.1. Are those other subchannels online yet?
QUOTE]

I use MCE and I manually added 36-2, and it came in fine. I didnt check the other subchannels. However, the guide is screwed up and doesnt include any subchannels.

-dickm

Rammitinski

09-04-08, 03:01 PM

I see as time goes on that all the channels in all markets will be offering multiple subchannels. This means good bye to any quality extra bandwidth provides. It's all about quantity vs quality.We know, but did you have to remind us? :mad:

Rammitinski

09-04-08, 03:07 PM

Yeah I get 11-1, but for some reason the picture on 36 always seemed to have better quality. More eye-popping. Maybe it had something to do with no subchannels. They also carried several different shows than WTTW did.

20-1 usually doesnt make it all the way out to Woodstock.

I wish I could find it now, but I was reading an on-line article several weeks ago that was talking about how PBS was ending the programing split between SD and HD stations. Since most of their standard shows are filmed in HD nowadays, Thats all that would be shown. Hence, 11-1 & 11-2 would carry the same programming but 11-1 would be in HD and 11-2 would be downrez'ed in SD. I wish I could find that article now. Maybe the changes that are happening are a prelude to this change.They've done that in a lot of places already, I hear in the programming forum here. Don't know their plans for here yet, though.

10.1 (formerly 36.1) is 1080i with no subchannels - WTTW is 720p with three :eek: subchannels. You figure it out. ;)

Rammitinski

09-04-08, 07:08 PM

tvropro

09-04-08, 07:58 PM

Okay, I gave in and did a re-scan on the 50" Pio plasma. You guys are right, and my initial impressions have been confirmed - 5.3 does look absolutely awful, and 5.1 looks worse than ever, too (at least with what they've been showing so far).

The "You Tube" analogy for 5.3 is right on.

I mean, why? (Actually, I know perfectly well why - but do they really think anyone is going to even watch that?)

I noticed 5.1 in SD on my CECB even looks worse than it did :( They don't care about the viewer just the revenue from the advertisers. Joe six pack will watch it just like he does dish and direct.

OTA_GUY

09-04-08, 09:04 PM

Okay, I gave in and did a re-scan on the 50" Pio plasma. You guys are right, and my initial impressions have been confirmed - 5.3 does look absolutely awful, and 5.1 looks worse than ever, too (at least with what they've been showing so far).

The "You Tube" analogy for 5.3 is right on.

I mean, why? (Actually, I know perfectly well why - but do they really think anyone is going to even watch that?)

one word, Beach Volleyball ... I say suck 5.1 dry and give me full on 5.3!

sebenste

09-04-08, 09:27 PM

Rammitinski

09-05-08, 12:16 AM

one word, Beach Volleyball ... I say suck 5.1 dry and give me full on 5.3!I mean in it's present condition. You can't see any detail anyway. ;)

(Actually, when I first turned it on, it was Men's, so it didn't really do much for me. :cool:)

I guess if it's on a small 480i set it's watchable, just like Create - but on a larger, HD display, it really looks bad.

kd9fz

09-05-08, 12:13 PM

considering what i have seen on 5.3 afer midnite
until past dawn - sports means being a good sport
about watching another infomercial channel

maybe when they start the olympic replay next week
it will be watchable programming

Rammitinski

09-05-08, 04:01 PM

maybe when they start the olympic replay next week
it will be watchable programmingOnly on my 32" analog, as far as I'm concerned. It truly is You Tube quality.

Rammitinski

09-05-08, 04:29 PM

They should be, although the Milwaukee HDTV forum reports no PSIP problems. Try again...Gilbert -

I forgot to mention that when I re-scanned for the new Milwaukee lineup the other night, I picked up the PSIP for 5 (I think) subchannels for 10.1.

Did it over again, just to make sure, and got the same thing.

DJ Matt

09-05-08, 07:12 PM

I have yet to check out 5-3, but I have to say the football game between the Giants and Redskins did not impress me at all. NBC still has macroblocking issues that were present last season. It may be a little better, but the problem still persists.

sebenste

09-06-08, 01:58 AM

A friend of mine and yours truly went to the Sandwich Fair (Sandwich, IL, far southeast DeKalb county) tonight. At the sound board was Melinda Collins, longtime WSPY-FM 107.1 employee. When I asked her when WSPY-LD was going to hit the air, I had to clarify when their "digital signal" on the TV side was going in. She told me she had no idea, except they "had" to get it by February (of course, that's not true in the purest sense, but since everyone else will be signing off analog, they'd better do it!). She did also say, however, that all the equipment was there, but no timetable was given as to when it goes up on the tower and turned on.

dicko2

09-06-08, 10:32 AM

Gilbert -

I forgot to mention that when I re-scanned for the new Milwaukee lineup the other night, I picked up the PSIP for 5 (I think) subchannels for 10.1.

Did it over again, just to make sure, and got the same thing.

The MCE guide was updated last night and now it has all the subchannels on ch36. ch10 shows with 2 subchannels. 10.2 appears to be spanish. 10.3 is a weather channel. 10.1 seems mostly to duplicate 36.1. For some reason, 36.2 is missing. It jumps from 36.1 directly to 36.3.

5.3 doesnt appear yet.

BTW, I'm using Vista Tv Pack.
-dickm

Rammitinski

09-06-08, 04:00 PM

No wonder the main channel didn't look quite as good to me as it did when it was alone on 36.1.

Looks like this is truly the end for those who care about PQ. I don't "hate" all subchannels, and everything they show, but if I had the choice I would just take the main channels in the highest quality. But I can see where this is going now. It's totally sunk in. Greed rules. There are no exceptions anymore. Might as well just go with satellite, cable or U-verse then. Same picture quality, but a little more programming (I say "a little" because the vast majority of it isn't even worth watching - and unfortunately, that little bit is usually stuff you can't buy or rent).

I'm not a fan of spending big money on Blu-Ray (I don't buy or rent movies, and I really don't even watch them on TV very often). Maybe I can still get enough for my 1140HD (it's still in perfect condition, with no noticable gas fade at all - great black levels) and downgrade to no larger than a 42" display - because I can see everything on the Pio. Hopefully I can get enough to buy another Pio, because I'm totally spoiled by them now (a Kuro sure would be nice!). Oh, well - Craig's List and ebay, here I come. With the energy costs going up so much, maybe it's not such a bad idea anyway.

Just wish I'd have bought the current display two or three years earlier, so I could've enjoyed what we once *had* longer. Or maybe even five (I actually would've, if only the prices and black levels had been a bit better). I really don't expect the other providers to even be any better at this point, ever again. Especially if they're getting their signals OTA. What really sucks is it's the channels you'd most want to watch that are adding the most subs.

You can count me in as one of those who would rather watch a little analog snow on a pic with less resolution than "HD-Lite", that's laden with blocking and jaggies, which literally gives me a headache and makes me nauseous to watch. All one has to do is go into Best Buy and watch those DirecTV promos on the displays and wonder how in the world anyone can watch that kind of cr*p.

But I imagine many around here are very happy with all this, so I guess I'll just go commiserate on the programming threads - at least before the OTA "industry" shills over there swoop down and take over the threads and deflect the focal point with their geek double-talk, like they always do - while the administration here does absolutely nothing, although they would never let the "ordinary" members get away with that. I certainly can't do it on the CECB sub-forum, that's for sure - not with all those 20" analog, rabbit ears and VCR users who are just ecstatic over this sort of thing. Maybe the Technical forum, if I word it carefully and they don't move me over to programming, where the pack of aggressive attack dogs lie in waiting to take over every thread like a bunch of gangbangers with their constant talk of "telecines" and "dialnorm", which never have anything to do with the original thread title and post, which often centers around complaints of downgraded PQ, commercial's sound being turned way up, more useless added subchannels, and just greed in general.

There have been letters to the editor in our local paper lately about all the negatives of the "switchover", but it seems even those people aren't always fully informed. Think I'll just take the time to write a real good, biting, informative one myself and at least start by spreading the word around the immediate area as much as I can. A lot of these people around here aren't even aware of any of this stuff. That oughta at least make me feel a little better. I blew a lot of hard-earned dough on this display and I'm feeling mighty burned right about now. I knew this was coming, but not to this extent - I never expected all the good channels to be adding 5 subchannels. "New encoders" or not - there is a tipping point involved. It's outpacing the technology as far as the purists are concerned.

tvropro

09-06-08, 04:22 PM

When I got my first digital satellite receiver (the 4DTV for c band satellite) I felt the same way as you. Being in C band since 1987 and watching the broadcast masters 1st generation with full analog bandwidth gave a fantastic picture. I was so used to the quality and got spoiled by it. Then I got my digital receiver since the analog channels were all going digital. In the beginning I noticed the reduction in quality, even the digital masters had traces of macroblocking and mosquito noise. Then they started pulling the masters away from us and started cramming things together to save $$$ and selling us second generations. So went the picture quality. So I know where your coming from. Over time I learned to accept digital and all it's flaws. It still bothers me sometimes when I see all the crap digital compression brings. And really enjoy the occasional master backhaul once in while when they open them up in the clear when they have encryption issues.

What Im saying with all this is as much as we hate it and what they have done to quality. We just have to let it go since there is no way that things will ever go back to what they once were. I say technology is moving backwards, soon we'll be back to the quality of when NTSC was launched. I think it was 8 fps or something like that.

sebenste

09-06-08, 05:03 PM