Chicago, IL - OTA [Text View] - Page 18

swiat

02-19-09, 10:50 AM

Nah...you'll be fine. 12 kw on channel 13 doesn't go very far with a 1,000' antenna. Put it 500' higher, though, and watch what happens with WBBM...
Vader, you should be getting analog 23, even with trees in the way, albeit with ghosting given the buildings and such in your way. I can get it with almost cable Tv quality with an indoor ChannelMaster 4228 classic 8-bay UHF antenna in my one-story attic, and I'm pretty low on the northwest side of DeKalb, 60 miles from Sears Tower, almost to the foot!

He said he can't even get 26-2 which really amazes me. I wonder what type of antenna and coax he has.

AudioVisionary

02-19-09, 01:29 PM

Just checking in...

WWME-LD is looking good...coming in at 70% and a solid lock here in the NW burbs. Any idea when WMEU will be doing the same?

Also couple other questions...while we wait another 3 months for digital christmas...

Will Channel 7 be doing any more of their digital tests...or at least is there a place to find out when they will. I'm gonna put an antenna in the attic, but gonna wait til it gets a little warmer...

Also what's the status of the other LPs and Class As? I was noticing the Home Shopping is now on Channel 25 (terrible picture just like on 46) as well as the TBN station on 40 and WOCK 41. Or is everyone holding their digitals until June?

I'm usually lurking...always appreciate all the solid information.

Cheers...

bluegras

02-19-09, 02:08 PM

i would ask HVS he would proabley no more about it

Rammitinski

02-19-09, 02:39 PM

Also couple other questions...while we wait another 3 months for digital christmas...I just want to see everyone prepared and not slit their wrists when June rolls around and they delay it AGAIN - because that's very likely to happen (so says my intuition).

tvropro

02-19-09, 02:49 PM

I just want to see everyone prepared and not slit their wrists when June rolls around and they delay it AGAIN - because that's very likely to happen (so says my intuition).

My crystal ball says they will delay it till the last slacker gets a converter box, maybe in 2011 :eek: :rolleyes:

swiat

02-19-09, 02:55 PM

I was noticing the Home Shopping is now on Channel 25 (terrible picture just like on 46) as well as the TBN station on 40 and WOCK 41. Or is everyone holding their digitals until June?

yeah, and that home shopping garbage interferes with WCGV-DT out of Milwaukee... They should relegate all that garbage to VHF LO 2-6 after the transition. They can all interfere with one another in the Spring and Fall. It's like WEDE-CA on channel 34. Who watches this stuff?

Lord Vader

02-19-09, 05:09 PM

He said he can't even get 26-2 which really amazes me. I wonder what type of antenna and coax he has.

The fact that it's an indoor antenna (due to the type of 3-floor building in which I live) doesn't help matters any. It's actually a newer type of antenna with lots of good reviews from its customers. Unfortunately, there are some channels I just can't pull in with it. At all. Chief among these are 2, 20, and the subchannels for 26.

hvs10trk

02-19-09, 05:25 PM

hvs10trk

02-19-09, 05:26 PM

The fact that it's an indoor antenna (due to the type of 3-floor building in which I live) doesn't help matters any. It's actually a newer type of antenna with lots of good reviews from its customers. Unfortunately, there are some channels I just can't pull in with it. At all. Chief among these are 2, 20, and the subchannels for 26.

Those would be the weaker of the bunch.

WillieAntenna

02-19-09, 07:15 PM

I thought I would share this news article in today Milwaukee Journal Sentienl paper.

" The National Associction of Broadcasters reported that the midday shutdown of three stations in Madison resulted in 400 phone calls. Many viewers had been watching analog TV on their high-definition televisions without knowing it."

"The FCC reported 28,000 viewers calls related to the switch of 421 stations affecting 12.4 million over-the-air TV households"

I did hear but forgot which Madiosn or Milwaukee news sations reported one caller called in and said the converter box did not work the call in person talked the lady though and she had all the coax cable hook up right it just she forgot to plug the power cord in the power outlet so now she is a very happy person and said the picture Q was much better than analog.

Willie

tvropro

02-19-09, 08:26 PM

What is the symbol rate and FEC for channel 27 digital? Im curious, also how are the bits distributed to 26.1, 2,3 4 and 6. Do you guys use Statistical multiplexing?

dattier

02-20-09, 01:23 AM

WWME-LD is looking good...coming in at 70% and a solid lock here in the NW burbs.I guess that the analog 39 in Rockford wasn't part of my problem with WWME-LD's signal, as it hasn't improved at all here on the Northwest Side of Chicago itself. It still can't survive a single two-way split without amplification.

I'm beginning to wonder if the Sprint Broadband Direct pizzabox has traps to filter out TV-band frequencies, and that that's the reason I can't get any stations if I connect its coax to a television, rather than any inability of the pizzabox to receive them.

Rammitinski

02-20-09, 02:13 AM

I guess that the analog 39 in Rockford wasn't part of my problem with WWME-LD's signal, as it hasn't improved at all here on the Northwest Side of Chicago itself.Not surprised. I'm nearly at the midway point (41 and 45 miles out from each), and WQRF going off didn't make a noticable difference for me, either.

tvropro

02-20-09, 08:28 AM

I guess that the analog 39 in Rockford wasn't part of my problem with WWME-LD's signal, as it hasn't improved at all here on the Northwest Side of Chicago itself.* It still can't survive a single two-way split without amplification.

I'm beginning to wonder if the Sprint Broadband Direct pizzabox has traps to filter out TV-band frequencies, and that that's the reason I can't get any stations if I connect its coax to a television, rather than any inability of the pizzabox to receive them.

Any kind of circuitry in line that is not resonant and tuned to the specific frequency will cause attenuation of other signals not meant to do bandpass at those frequency's.

George Mari

02-20-09, 09:08 AM

I'm beginning to wonder if the Sprint Broadband Direct pizzabox has traps to filter out TV-band frequencies, and that that's the reason I can't get any stations if I connect its coax to a television, rather than any inability of the pizzabox to receive them.

If your Sprint Broadband antenna were sensitive to TV signals, I think TV signals would have interfered with your Sprint Broadband service when you were using it.

I think Sprint Broadband service used microwave signals - these are way outside the frequency band for UHF TV, so it's not likely that antenna would work for TV.

tvropro

02-20-09, 10:11 AM

If your Sprint Broadband antenna were sensitive to TV signals, I think TV signals would have interfered with your Sprint Broadband service when you were using it.

I think Sprint Broadband service used microwave signals - these are way outside the frequency band for UHF TV, so it's not likely that antenna would work for TV.

Sprint did use microwave freq's. The downconverter is causing him signal blockage I would think. A piece if wire on the roof would receive something so even though the antenna isn't resonant it would get something. Passing through electronic circuitry is choking off quite a bit of any signal the head may be getting. Best bet is cut the coax off the sprint and hook it up to an antenna but since he can't get anyone to do it or afford to pay to have it done he's stuck. There is only one real solution and hoping that some magic will come out of just connecting a wire won't happen. It would be like hooking up to a cable line disconnected from the tap. A long wire even shielded being in Chicago would get something but nothing of quality. You can amplify at the receiver forever but without a quality head your just boosting noise.

sebenste

02-20-09, 10:21 AM

Here comes the ARG...Analog Resistance Group! :D

http://www.grimmy.com/images/MGG_Archive/MGG_2009/MGG0220.gif

On the other hand...

http://www.wbir.com/news/watercooler/story.aspx?storyid=78550&catid=141

Man shoots TV in frustration over digital conversion
NBC News
Updated: 2/19/2009 5:59:44 PM Posted: 2/19/2009 5:58:45 PM

A Missouri man, frustrated over losing his cable television service,
peppered his TV set with gunfire.

Police responded to 70-year-old Walter Hoover's house in Joplin,
Missouri Wednesday after reports of shots being fired inside.

The man was livid over losing cable and couldn't get his digital TV
converter to work.

After a brief standoff, police took him into custody and charged him
with unlawful use of a firearm.

It was Hoover's wife who reported him to police, and she also told
them he had been drinking.
-----

Drinking and hooking up a converter box don't mix! :eek:

dattier

02-20-09, 11:48 AM

I think Sprint Broadband service used microwave signals - these are way outside the frequency band for UHF TV, so it's not likely that antenna would work for TV.

Sprint did use microwave freq's.

Thank you both. So that leaves

putting up with things as they are
getting someone to disconnect the RG6 from the pizzabox and connect it to our existing TV-band antenna
getting someone to move the existing TV-band antenna to the pizzabox's mast and to connect the RG6 to it
getting someone to mount a new TV-band antenna on the pizzabox's mast and to connect the RG6 to it

vvj

02-20-09, 12:26 PM

Hi,

OK, I've joined the digital world, using a HD Homerun tuner to get OTA channels and SageTV (with media extender) to see them.

Almost all is well; I'm about 25 miles west of Chicago and the new antenna is bringing them all in clear and sharp (well, except as noted frequently here, I guess I'll have to patch the VHF antenna back in to get WBBM...).

BUT, on WFLD, I get perfectly good live TV or playback when the program is in HD but pixelated video and choppy audio in SD. For example, a program will be fine but a commercial in SD (or even the station's own ads) will get choppy. Of course, I don't care about commercials, but it means I can watch prime-time shows but not, say, Seinfeld re-runs. :)

It appears the same might be happening for WGN...I need to test to see if HD is clear, but so far I'm looking at SD shows there and they're all stuttering.

Both HD and SD are fine for all other channels so far.

Anyone seen or dealt with this issue? Is it the stations, or how the tuner or Sage deals with the switch? Any help appreciated...

WillieAntenna

02-20-09, 01:14 PM

hvs10trk

02-20-09, 01:31 PM

What is the symbol rate and FEC for channel 27 digital? Im curious, also how are the bits distributed to 26.1, 2,3 4 and 6. Do you guys use Statistical multiplexing?

There is a general spec for 8VSB, nothing channel specific. Stat mux.

hvs10trk

02-20-09, 01:37 PM

Sprint did use microwave freq's. The downconverter is causing him signal blockage I would think. A piece if wire on the roof would receive something so even though the antenna isn't resonant it would get something. Passing through electronic circuitry is choking off quite a bit of any signal the head may be getting. Best bet is cut the coax off the sprint and hook it up to an antenna but since he can't get anyone to do it or afford to pay to have it done he's stuck. There is only one real solution and hoping that some magic will come out of just connecting a wire won't happen. It would be like hooking up to a cable line disconnected from the tap. A long wire even shielded being in Chicago would get something but nothing of quality. You can amplify at the receiver forever but without a quality head your just boosting noise.

Agree'd. Very nice explaination!!! :)

Rammitinski

02-20-09, 03:04 PM

Man, you guys need to speak in English, so some of us non-geeks can understand you. :p;)

(I'm kidding - I understood most of it.)

Rammitinski

02-20-09, 03:07 PM

LOL!!! Same thing happen in Milwaukee last year,but it was not the converter box problem it was the lawnmower :eek: that got him mad outside in broad light day because it won't start and same thing he had too much to drink.Ah, yes - the days of mowing the lawn on a hot, summer day with one hand holding a cool one, and the other hand on the mower. I can only dream. :cool:

(Not really looking forward to the 7" tonight.)

TheKorn

02-20-09, 04:32 PM

OK, I've joined the digital world, using a HD Homerun tuner to get OTA channels and SageTV (with media extender) to see them.

Almost all is well; I'm about 25 miles west of Chicago and the new antenna is bringing them all in clear and sharp (well, except as noted frequently here, I guess I'll have to patch the VHF antenna back in to get WBBM...).

BUT, on WFLD, I get perfectly good live TV or playback when the program is in HD but pixelated video and choppy audio in SD. For example, a program will be fine but a commercial in SD (or even the station's own ads) will get choppy. Of course, I don't care about commercials, but it means I can watch prime-time shows but not, say, Seinfeld re-runs. :)

It appears the same might be happening for WGN...I need to test to see if HD is clear, but so far I'm looking at SD shows there and they're all stuttering.

Both HD and SD are fine for all other channels so far.

Anyone seen or dealt with this issue? Is it the stations, or how the tuner or Sage deals with the switch? Any help appreciated...

I think there may be an issue in your SageTV box. I'm runniny MythTV, I record on WFLD a few times a week and the WGN noon news every day. I'm not experiencing the problems you're seeing. (Though I usually have auto commercial skip enabled, I can turn it off. ;) )

I'd say try recording the WGN news at noon on Monday, and see if you see the problem with that. I only keep two days worth (it's the news, it automatically gets stale!) of WGNNAN, so you'll have to record it and check it that evening if I'm going to check my recording as well. (I only record from noon-1PM. Nuts to 11:30-noon! :D )

Oh, and I'm using Hauppauge tuner cards, not a HDHR.

TheKorn

02-20-09, 04:34 PM

LOL!!! Same thing happen in Milwaukee last year,but it was not the converter box problem it was the lawnmower :eek: that got him mad outside in broad light day because it won't start and same thing he had too much to drink.

I did that to a ComCrap cable box once.

Nobody called the cops, as they thought it was a justified homocide! :D

goaliebob99

02-20-09, 05:57 PM

So... Who's pulling the plug on March 14th?

http://www.multichannel.com/article/174542-FCC_Gearing_Up_For_DTV_Switch_s_Second_Phase_Adelstein.php?r ssid=20059

Hopfully All of them, especially WTTW!

justalurker

02-20-09, 07:27 PM

So... Who's pulling the plug on March 14th?

http://www.multichannel.com/article/174542-FCC_Gearing_Up_For_DTV_Switch_s_Second_Phase_Adelstein.php?r ssid=20059

Hopfully All of them, especially WTTW!Anyone pulling the plug from now on on any day other than June 12th will have to file a 30 day notice with the FCC and do the on air notifications. Unless a station did that on or before February 14th there will be no shutoffs on March 14th.

If they filed their notification today they could shut down on March 20th. :)

Rammitinski

02-20-09, 07:39 PM

Lets all bombard them with applications.

Better yet - bring them there in person, get them to sign them, and send or deliver them to the FCC ourselves.

Trip in VA

02-20-09, 08:07 PM

Man, you guys need to speak in English, so some of us non-geeks can understand you. :p;)

(I'm kidding - I understood most of it.)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5125780462773187994

:D

- Trip

dattier

02-21-09, 12:32 AM

If they filed their notification today they could shut down on March 20th. :)No, March 22. Thirty days from February 20 is March 22 in a non-leap year, March 21 in a leap year (which 2009 is not).

To file in time to shut analog off on March 14, the station would have had to file by February 12.

justalurker

02-21-09, 01:31 AM

OK ... no analog shutoffs until Spring (unless they have already filed). :D

Rammitinski

02-21-09, 02:06 AM

I seem to be getting in WOCH-CA really good since the (first) cutoff.

Have there been any adjacent channels that have went off the air?

pm3839

02-21-09, 10:06 PM

I guess that the analog 39 in Rockford wasn't part of my problem with WWME-LD's signal, as it hasn't improved at all here on the Northwest Side of Chicago itself. It still can't survive a single two-way split without amplification.

I'm beginning to wonder if the Sprint Broadband Direct pizzabox has traps to filter out TV-band frequencies, and that that's the reason I can't get any stations if I connect its coax to a television, rather than any inability of the pizzabox to receive them.

i am pretty sure the Sprint Broadband Direct service bought out or otherwise took over the MMDS freqs that were being used by PEOPLES CHOICE TV, which was a short lived wireless competitor to the cable tv systems in chicago in 1990's......and if thats the case those freqs were at 2.4 gigahertz, which is a longggggg way away from the uhf tv band, which means that Sprint Broadband Direct antenna would be a very poor performer on uhf...i am amazed it works at all for u for any tv channel....the active driven element in it is probably only a couple inches long....

if youre ~25 miles or less from the transmitters try an attic antenna....like a home made 'coat hanger' hoverman type bow tie antenna...the one i made works well with 2 splits and long coax runs...

HDTV TOM

02-21-09, 10:43 PM

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5125780462773187994

:D

- Trip

Well, that is obviously a put-on. Everyone KNOWS that a non-reversible tremi pipe is incompatible with a differential girdle spring. That was the dead giveaway!:D

sebenste

02-22-09, 01:05 AM

I seem to be getting in WOCH-CA really good since the (first) cutoff.

Have there been any adjacent channels that have went off the air?

It's called: WOCH-CA got permission to run 255 kw instead of 150 kw, the latter is typically the highest ERP a low power station can run.

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=679424

Trip in VA

02-22-09, 01:35 AM

It's called: WOCH-CA got permission to run 255 kw instead of 150 kw, the latter is typically the highest ERP a low power station can run.

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=679424

Wow, I missed that one. Why is the FCC granting these only in Chicago?

- Trip

dattier

02-22-09, 01:37 AM

that Sprint Broadband Direct antenna would be a very poor performer on uhf...i am amazed it works at all for u for any tv channel.It doesn't, but I didn't know why, so I wasn't ruling out the possibility that a small hardware modification could make it work. Now, thanks to your post and those of a couple other members here, I know it won't, so that idea is crossed off.if youre ~25 miles or less from the transmitters try an attic antenna.I've explained before why that's not practicable and don't want to put readers through a repeat of it. The second-floor TVs get adequate reception from indoor antennas, but I need something for the first-floor televisions, and the coax from the roof to their locations is already in place, so, as I said a few posts earlier, the options are

putting up with things as they are
getting someone to disconnect the RG59 from the existing TV antenna and connect the pizzabox's RG6 to the TV antenna
getting someone to take the TV antenna off the RG59, to put it on the pizzabox's mast, and to connect the RG6 to it
getting someone to mount a new, better TV antenna on the pizzabox's mast and to connect the RG6 to it

Indoors, the RG6 from the Sprint pizzabox and the RG59 from the current roof antenna end in the same place, so it would be a simple matter, even for me, to connect the RG6 onto the splitter's input jack where the RG59 is now.

Rammitinski

02-22-09, 02:10 AM

It's called: WOCH-CA got permission to run 255 kw instead of 150 kw, the latter is typically the highest ERP a low power station can run.

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=679424It appears this happened awhile ago, though. Why does it seem so strong since on or about Feb. 18th?

If I had my amp going, it would be coming in clear as a bell right now. Weather or time of year maybe?

sebenste

02-22-09, 02:56 AM

It appears this happened awhile ago, though. Why does it seem so strong since on or about Feb. 18th?

If I had my amp going, it would be coming in clear as a bell right now. Weather or time of year maybe?

Cold weather definitely helps that signal if you are less than 60 miles away.

155

02-22-09, 10:57 PM

So did anyone notice that WLS-DT feed was awesome for the Oscars tonight?

1. When they overlayed the local station information it didn't switch to SD like it does for Lost and other HD shows every week.

2. The 16:9 commercials were actually in 16:9 and not double boxed (pillarboxed and letterboxed) like they seem to be on every station.

I was impressed. I wonder if they upgraded their systems. I hope it continues and wasn't just for the Oscars.

Note: According to Wikipedia: Pillarbox + Letterbox = Windowboxed, which is what I mean by double boxed up there.

Lord Vader

02-22-09, 11:33 PM

Hmmm...now that you mentioned it, yes, I noticed the commercials were all 16:9

sebenste

02-23-09, 01:09 AM

Wow, I missed that one. Why is the FCC granting these only in Chicago?

- Trip

Oh, more than just Chicago. If it is justified (see the STA in detail), they can run more than that using a beam tilt, directing more of the higher power signal below the horizon.

Trip in VA

02-23-09, 01:13 AM

Oh, more than just Chicago. If it is justified (see the STA in detail), they can run more than that using a beam tilt, directing more of the higher power signal below the horizon.

I haven't seen any other stations get approved for more than 150 kW, though I haven't been specifically looking. Just out of curiosity, can you direct me to some of them?

- Trip

155

02-23-09, 01:17 AM

justalurker

02-23-09, 01:29 AM

A question just occured to me.

If you are watching on a 4:3 screen with a digital converter box and a commercial is shot in 16:9 format, but letterboxed for 4:3 and then pillarboxed for digital broadcast to 16:9, does the digital converter box then letterbox that image to add even more boxing? So that bars are added to the image three times?Some call that "postage stamp". :D

Yes. If you have your converter box outputting 16x9 video to your 4x3 TV in letterbox any 4x3 pillarboxed content will be letterboxed including 16x9 content that was letterboxed before it was pillarboxed and letterboxed again. If you are watching a 16x9 feed in a zoom mode instead of letterbox the converter will crop off the pillarbox and you'll see the 4x3 content with the original letterboxed content.

hvs10trk

02-23-09, 06:03 AM

hvs10trk

02-23-09, 06:04 AM

hvs10trk

02-23-09, 06:06 AM

Some call that "postage stamp". :D

Yes. If you have your converter box outputting 16x9 video to your 4x3 TV in letterbox any 4x3 pillarboxed content will be letterboxed including 16x9 content that was letterboxed before it was pillarboxed and letterboxed again. If you are watching a 16x9 feed in a zoom mode instead of letterbox the converter will crop off the pillarbox and you'll see the 4x3 content with the original letterboxed content.

Hate it royally on my 4:3 HD Sony. :mad: There is a newer technology out there that allows a "flag" to be sent down to the set top boxes to force them into certain resolutions.

justalurker

02-23-09, 11:24 AM

Hate it royally on my 4:3 HD Sony. :mad: There is a newer technology out there that allows a "flag" to be sent down to the set top boxes to force them into certain resolutions.I really doubt that flag will pass all the way to a converter/tuner ... too many steps and variables.

What would be nice would be if the STATIONS would honor those flags ... proportional stretch letterbox 4x3 to 16x9. It will look decent on a 16x9 set and is easily re-letterboxed on a 4x3 set via it's tuner/converter box.

There is a much better chance the "flag" will make it from the source to your equipment than be passed through to the converter box. :)

The only drawback is the cable/satellite carriers who centercut video ... they could really use a flag that tells them to centercut or letterbox instead of having one setting all the time.

Somehow I believe that by the time producers, broadcasters and rebroadcasters figure this out it will be moot. But there are a lot of 4x3 sets out there. Fortunately the converter boxes I have are easily switched between letterbox and centercrop on OTA signals ... but that doesn't help the via cable/satellite crops. :(

Trip in VA

02-23-09, 11:30 AM

I really doubt that flag will pass all the way to a converter/tuner ... too many steps and variables.

And yet, that's exactly what it does. If you have a 1080i video and it contains black sidebars and a 4:3 image in the middle, it tells the converter box to center cut, thus cropping the black bars on all four sides.

- Trip

TheKorn

02-23-09, 12:31 PM

I've finally figured out a way to receive WBBM-DT reliably in my location (Skokie)... DO EVERYTHING WRONG! Seriously! Outside of not having an antenna, everything about my WBBM-specific antenna screams that this shouldn't work.

I tried making a folded dipole antenna out of some scrap wire I had, and used masking tape to mount it to an 8 foot 2x4. Put it up in the attic (asphalt shingles), pointed the broad side of the antenna SSE towards the hancock/sears, and...

...bupkis! None of my receivers could lock on WBBM-DT.

So yesterday (in between bouts of muttering "CONGRESS SUCKS" over and over again), I messed around and messed around until I found a configuration that works by breaking all the rules:

Antenna should be up high... CHECK! Antenna was up about two and a half stories, and I got nothing. Now the antenna is three feet off of the ground.
Antenna length should be at the resonant frequency... CHECK! Instead of the 7 1/2 foot long folded dipole I now have... A pair of rabbit ears, about 5 feet long end to end. NOT in a flat horizontal position, instead in a deep V about 45 degrees between the 'ears'!
Antenna should be positioned with the broad side towards the tower... CHECK! Instead of pointing south-south-east, it's sitting in a window that points due east.
Antenna should be connected with as small of a run of coax as possible to avoid leakage... CHECK! The signal quality got better when I spliced in a 4 foot RG6Quad extension so I could route around my entertainment center

I'm as mystified as you most likely are. This shouldn't work, yet it's the only configuration that works at all. And it's not as though I'm getting a marginal signal; WBBM-DT has gone from a complete zero to rock solid with no correctable errors, much less uncorrectable errors!

So the moral of the story is to get WBBM, chuck the rule book out the window and just do it all wrong. :D

(Oh yeah, and congress sucks.)

Lord_Zath

02-23-09, 02:10 PM

lohertz

02-23-09, 02:19 PM

:D LOL I bought some Twinlead over the weekend!!!!! Am gonna build a folded dipole to get WBBM!
I will need a better UHF and a rotor to get Milwaukee CBS

155

02-23-09, 02:58 PM

CHECK! Instead of the 7 1/2 foot long folded dipole I now have...

What is the best way to strip twin lead? But when I strip it I end up with most of the copper in the jacket and a few strands of copper left for me to solder or screw into the transformer.

My WBBM reception experiences the past couple weeks...

Purchased Antennas Direct V4 low vhf antenna: FAIL
Went to Fry's and bought $9.99 100 ft Twin Lead and $1.50 transformer to make Folded Dipole: FAIL

Does anyone think buying a channel master 7777 would help either of the above projects? The people at a local mt prospect electronics shop didn't seem to think so.

Another question. My tv has never been able to receive channel 2. Since i can't run scan and add channel 2 if I just set it to 2.1 and move the antenna around will this work?

I've been trying to find it by setting manually adding WBBM to my HDHomerun's xml file, and setting that channel to view and moving the antenna around, which I hope is the way to go.

BillFromCH

02-23-09, 03:31 PM

I've finally figured out a way to receive WBBM-DT reliably in my location (Skokie)... DO EVERYTHING WRONG! Seriously! Outside of not having an antenna, everything about my WBBM-specific antenna screams that this shouldn't work.

Yesterday seemed like a bad day to try to receive WBBM-DT. During the Illinois-Ohio State game, my screen would pixillate and lock up constantly. Then it seemed as if the engineers were resetting the signal, and it would completely go black, then reset.

After the game was over I noticed that my Sony DVR had lost its TVGOS ads. Maybe the engineers were trying to reset the VBI packet transmission.

I have a rooftop antenna, probably the same vintage as the house (40+ yo), and every other Chicago digital station comes in fine. Oh yeah, Congress sucks!

MakoShark

02-23-09, 04:12 PM

WillieAntenna

02-23-09, 04:53 PM

What is the best way to strip twin lead? But when I strip it I end up with most of the copper in the jacket and a few strands of copper left for me to solder or screw into the transformer.

My WBBM reception experiences the past couple weeks...

Purchased Antennas Direct V4 low vhf antenna: FAIL
Went to Fry's and bought $9.99 100 ft Twin Lead and $1.50 transformer to make Folded Dipole: FAIL

Does anyone think buying a channel master 7777 would help either of the above projects? The people at a local mt prospect electronics shop didn't seem to think so.

Another question. My tv has never been able to receive channel 2. Since i can't run scan and add channel 2 if I just set it to 2.1 and move the antenna around will this work?

I've been trying to find it by setting manually adding WBBM to my HDHomerun's xml file, and setting that channel to view and moving the antenna around, which I hope is the way to go.

Most digtial tuner when manually tune to a single channel you must know the true RF channel it on as in WBBM 2 you need to tune to 3 and most tuner you will need to move the antenna then manually enter 3 then again until you get it and some tuner if have a signial meter you may see a siginal but not a lock to get the pictrue and you may move it around to get better location but again every tuner is different. but make a note where your antenna for others so you go back and get them.

Willie

swiat

02-23-09, 05:03 PM

Most digtial tuner when manually tune to a single channel you must know the true RF channel it on as in WBBM 2 you need to tune to 3 and most tuner you will need to move the antenna then manually enter 3 then again until you get it and some tuner if have a signial meter you may see a siginal but not a lock to get the pictrue and you may move it around to get better location but again every tuner is different. but make a note where your antenna for others so you go back and get them.

Willie

On my TV I set it to 3-1 to automatically find 2-1. The format obviously, is RF channel - subchannel to manually map a virtual channel. I can do the same thing for 19-1... It then remaps to 9-1 automatically. Maybe you can try that. Regarding antennas and amplifier recommendations:
Antenna: Radio Slack VU-190 or Channel Master 3020
Preamplifier: Winegard AP-8700 or Channel Master 7777
(the 8700 has a high overload protector if you're close to the city, the 7778 might be better for close in if you go the channel master route. farther out the 7777 is good)

I also use RG-6 QS. I get WBBM-DT, WWME-DT, and WYIN-DT fine. Of course, I'm in Northbrook, much closer than you. I usually get WMVT, and WDJT-DT from Milwaukee too. I have adjacent channel selectivity issues with WMVS, WITI, and WCGV thanks to the wide bandwidth analog hell on 7, 9, 26 and 32. So those come in when the band is even a little better than average.

TheKorn

02-23-09, 05:52 PM

What is the best way to strip twin lead?

I wasn't using twin lead; I was using zip cord and crimping the ends together to make a folded dipole.

But when I have to strip twin lead, how I do it is I put it down on a cutting mat (scrap 2x4) and get a razor knife. I cut out the flat plastic between the two conductors, leaving two ends that still have plastic insulation over them. Then I strip those very carefully. Occasionally I'll do the 'roll the wire under the razor knife' method, but don't normally have to. Having sharp cutters also helps.

Does anyone think buying a channel master 7777 would help either of the above projects? The people at a local mt prospect electronics shop didn't seem to think so.

Normally I'd say that you can't amplify what isn't there to begin with. But I'm beginning to think that maybe your best option is to tear your shirt in half, wipe some goat's blood on your chest, and dance around the antenna. :D

Another question. My tv has never been able to receive channel 2. Since i can't run scan and add channel 2 if I just set it to 2.1 and move the antenna around will this work?

Depends on your equipment. If I'm using a tuner card, I just specify the center frequency (63 MHz), and can get a signal readout that way. If I'm using one of my converter boxes, I go to manually add/remove a channel, and there it asks for the NTSC channel (in this case, 3).

Of course I was caibrating the antenna to the correct direction. Perhaps I should yank it down and throw it on the floor. ;)

I taped a little sign to the unsightly coax now gracing my living room... "This cable here until June 12th because CONGRESS SUCKS."

I have room to cross out June 12th and write in new dates as appropriate. :(

Yesterday seemed like a bad day to try to receive WBBM-DT. During the Illinois-Ohio State game, my screen would pixillate and lock up constantly. Then it seemed as if the engineers were resetting the signal, and it would completely go black, then reset.

I've noticed on my TV cards that when a signal is really iffy they will do that. They'll go right up to X amount of crappy-ness, then essentially give up and seem to look for a keyframe. (In that time, the output is just black.) So I don't know if you were seeing a reset per se, or just your tuner giving up for a bit.

George Mari

02-23-09, 07:58 PM

I tried making a folded dipole antenna out of some scrap wire I had, and used masking tape to mount it to an 8 foot 2x4. Put it up in the attic (asphalt shingles), pointed the broad side of the antenna SSE towards the hancock/sears, and...

...bupkis! None of my receivers could lock on WBBM-DT.

It probably didn't work because your roof is still full of snow, or has water in between those shingles. That'll kill your signal. If your attic has a "side wall" (I'm sure there's a name for this, but not sure what it is) you'd be better off aiming out this wall, even at an angle. No water or snow to go through on a vertical wall.

Antenna should be up high... CHECK! Antenna was up about two and a half stories, and I got nothing. Now the antenna is three feet off of the ground.

If it's on your first floor, you're no longer pointing through snow.

Antenna length should be at the resonant frequency... CHECK! Instead of the 7 1/2 foot long folded dipole I now have... A pair of rabbit ears, about 5 feet long end to end. NOT in a flat horizontal position, instead in a deep V about 45 degrees between the 'ears'!

Are your rabbit ears amplified? Did you have a pre-amp for the folded dipole?

Antenna should be positioned with the broad side towards the tower... CHECK! Instead of pointing south-south-east, it's sitting in a window that points due east.

Through a window is almost as good as being outside, certainly much better than going through snow and moisture on your roof. Also, diploes are very non-directional, with nulls basically only at either end. As long as the dipole is not pointed directly at or away from your signal source, you'll get something. My attic dipole gets the Milwaukee VHF analogs 60 miles away (with medium to heavy snow in the picture), and it's at about a 45 degree angle from "broadside" to the Milwaukee towers.

Antenna should be connected with as small of a run of coax as possible to avoid leakage... CHECK! The signal quality got better when I spliced in a 4 foot RG6Quad extension so I could route around my entertainment center

OK - this one I can't explain.

Rammitinski

02-24-09, 01:37 AM

Cold weather definitely helps that signal if you are less than 60 miles away.It hasn't been coming in as well the last couple of days, so I figured it was just the atmosphere. Thanks.

Rammitinski

02-24-09, 01:38 AM

Hmmm...now that you mentioned it, yes, I noticed the commercials were all 16:9I thought I read in the Programming forum that the one for Infinity was 4:3.

155

02-24-09, 08:32 AM

I thought I read in the Programming forum that the one for Infinity was 4:3.

There were definitely 4:3 commercials, but the 16:9 ones used the whole screen instead of the annoying windowboxing that happens.

JohnNadeau

02-24-09, 08:42 AM

From post 931 in the CM-7000 Thread:
CM-7000 dropped frames (stutter / judder, etc.) on 720p only....
I'm just comparing my first two DTV converter boxes, a CM-7000 and a Tivax STB-T8. The CM has a particularly annoying motion artifact on 2 of the 5 Chicago stations (WCIU-DT 26.1 and WPWR-DT 50.1) that transmit 1280x720p (60Hz frame rate). I usually but not always get what looks like very jerky motion artifacts as if I was only getting 1 out of 4 frames (i.e. 15 Hz frame rate). There are no other obvious artifacts and the picture is very sharp.

...I have the same problem here with the CM. That's one of the reasons I stopped using it for the time being.

If you check our local Chicago OTA thread, I think people with other tuners besides the CM have it...
It's been going on for months and months now. They just did some kind of software update, but it didn't seem to help much...

Was there any solution or follow up on this?

I'm experiencing the exact same problem on WCIU-DT 26.1 and WPWR-DT 50.1.

It ONLY happens on the CM-7000 (I have four other OTA tuners that don't display this problem: Samsung; ATI; Hauppauge; DirecTv)

TheKorn

02-24-09, 08:44 AM

It probably didn't work because your roof is still full of snow, or has water in between those shingles. That'll kill your signal. If your attic has a "side wall" (I'm sure there's a name for this, but not sure what it is) you'd be better off aiming out this wall, even at an angle. No water or snow to go through on a vertical wall.

Good point. I think the only problem with that is that I had the dipole up there for about a month and a half, and in that time it got warm and melted all the snow up there last week or the week before. So I'm not really sold on the snow thought. (And if you have water under your shingles, those aren't shingles!)

[FWIW, I also have an addition that's only one story tall, so I can keep an eye on the roof snow pack on the roof by proxy. ;) ]

Are your rabbit ears amplified? Did you have a pre-amp for the folded dipole?

Nope, both are unamplified.

TheKorn

02-24-09, 08:46 AM

There were definitely 4:3 commercials, but the 16:9 ones used the whole screen instead of the annoying windowboxing that happens.

I think you may be seeing the difference between commercials that were broadcast by ABC, vs. original-origination commercials that were spliced in by WLS.

155

02-24-09, 10:23 AM

I think you may be seeing the difference between commercials that were broadcast by ABC, vs. original-origination commercials that were spliced in by WLS.

It's possible, but during that broadcast, they spliced their local information/callsign in full 16:9 hd at the bottom of the live broadcast, but earlier in the week they had to switch to 4:3 to do that. So I thought it meant an equipment upgrade on their part.

The one 4:3 commercial I remember was a comcast one that extended all the way to the top and bottom. No 4:3 commercial was letterboxed.

hvs10trk

02-24-09, 01:12 PM

Was there any solution or follow up on this?

I'm experiencing the exact same problem on WCIU-DT 26.1 and WPWR-DT 50.1.

It ONLY happens on the CM-7000 (I have four other OTA tuners that don't display this problem: Samsung; ATI; Hauppauge; DirecTv)

It's being worked on. No immediate solution.

MakoShark

02-24-09, 01:42 PM

For those of you pulling your hair out trying to get WBBM-DT. I thought you might appreciate this.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2009/02/17/microsofts-silverlight-to-deliver-ncaa-march-madness-on-demand/

Now if I could just find "The big bang theory" online. :(

And, oh yeah, Congress still sucks!"

Rammitinski

02-24-09, 02:35 PM

It ONLY happens on the CM-7000 (I have four other OTA tuners that don't display this problem: Samsung...I seem to remember someone here mentioning it was doing it with their Samsung TV's tuner, so I don't think Samsung's are entirely immune.

retromzc

02-24-09, 07:12 PM

retromzc

02-24-09, 07:16 PM

WillieAntenna

02-24-09, 07:56 PM

Hvs10trk, I thought you may be interested in knowing that since I finally got Comcast to repair their leaking cable signal I can now receive WWME analog almost flawlessly and also have WWME digital back solidly. I had no idea just how much their cable system leak was affecting my ota reception. The difference is like night and day.

It could affect the Airliner jet too because Cable use some of same RF for nagavation to land the jet at airports as in my area in southern wisconsin radio beacon for the airliner jet to steer to O'Hare and I see time to time FAA or cable co looking area with the hand held antenna to find those ileagal cable hookup or just bad leaking conntectors, taps or splitters.

Willie

bigdnwi

02-24-09, 08:03 PM

I seem to remember someone here mentioning it was doing it with their Samsung TV's tuner, so I don't think Samsung's are entirely immune.

Not all Samsung's do it. I have 3 and 2 of them are fine, but the other jerks with WCIU and WPWR.

sebenste

02-25-09, 01:42 AM

Not all Samsung's do it. I have 3 and 2 of them are fine, but the other jerks with WCIU and WPWR.

Can a Samsung firmware upgrade fix this? Is this even possible?

AstroSaberIII

02-25-09, 02:37 AM

BUT, on WFLD, I get perfectly good live TV or playback when the program is in HD but pixelated video and choppy audio in SD. For example, a program will be fine but a commercial in SD (or even the station's own ads) will get choppy. Of course, I don't care about commercials, but it means I can watch prime-time shows but not, say, Seinfeld re-runs. :)

That is so funny you bring this up. I noticed the same thing. Most break-ups were happening during commercials and program in HD. During Seinfeld, when picture would just randomly break-up during the show or commercials.

I am using a HD650 card in the PC, and a 360 as an extender.

hvs10trk

02-25-09, 06:02 AM

hvs10trk

02-25-09, 06:03 AM

It could affect the Airliner jet too because Cable use some of same RF for nagavation to land the jet at airports as in my area in southern wisconsin radio beacon for the airliner jet to steer to O'Hare and I see time to time FAA or cable co looking area with the hand held antenna to find those ileagal cable hookup or just bad leaking conntectors, taps or splitters.

Willie

I think I'd be pretty ticked if a 747 tried to land in my backyard from a broken cable shield. :D

andyross63

02-25-09, 05:08 PM

Not all Samsung's do it. I have 3 and 2 of them are fine, but the other jerks with WCIU and WPWR.

My Samsung LN19A450 used to have problems with WCIU 26.1, but suddenly started working fine a few weeks ago. I made no changes.

HD Mission

02-25-09, 05:49 PM

Hello all,
I need some help/advice. I am building a server for my tvs and I would like to receive OTA HD signals for my local channels (I will be using Dish Turbo HD for the rest).

I live in Buffalo Grove (IL of course, 24 miles NW of Chicago), want to mount this in the attic of my two story house and would prefer to not have to run power for an amp. I don't mind spending a little money to do it right, I just don't know about antennas to make the proper selection.

I will be connecting this to my server via a WINTV-HVR-2250 tuner card.

Looking to get all locals including the stubborn ones (from what I read that is WBBM, must have CBS for NFL season.)

Please pass on any knowledge I can use to make the right choice.

Thanks in advance.

bigdnwi

02-25-09, 09:15 PM

Can a Samsung firmware upgrade fix this? Is this even possible?

Don't know, however the newest set is the one with the problem.

pm3839

02-25-09, 09:54 PM

Hello all,
I need some help/advice. I am building a server for my tvs and I would like to receive OTA HD signals for my local channels (I will be using Dish Turbo HD for the rest). ....I live in Buffalo Grove (IL of course, 24 miles NW of Chicago), want to mount this in the attic of my two story house and would prefer to not have to run power for an amp. I don't mind spending a little money to do it right, I just don't know about antennas to make the proper selection......Looking to get all locals including the stubborn ones (from what I read that is WBBM, must have CBS for NFL season.)....please pass on any knowledge I can use to make the right choice.....
an attic is a great place for a tv antenna but dont install an amp or any active electronics in an attic...the summer heat there will be brutal for any kind of active electronics ....

wbbm is moving to ch 12 in june, which should be a major improvement compared to their ch 3 signal now....

if the attic space allows it try a small 'city grade' outdoor type tv antenna first.....that should be all u need....and maybe an amp (but not in the attic) if u need to do a 4 way split...

Lord Vader

02-25-09, 10:01 PM

wbbm is moving to ch 12 in june, which should be a major improvement compared to their ch 3 signal now....

And this might be moved to October if the law's enactment is delayed yet again. My political sources tell me that there's a better than 50/50 chance of the transition being pushed back to the fall, especially if by June 12 there are "too many" Americans not on board.

TheKorn

02-25-09, 11:23 PM

And this might be moved to October if the law's enactment is delayed yet again. My political sources tell me that there's a better than 50/50 chance of the transition being pushed back to the fall, especially if by June 12 there are "too many" Americans not on board.

Congress sucks, and I have the antenna to prove it! :D

George Mari

02-25-09, 11:25 PM

I live in Buffalo Grove (IL of course, 24 miles NW of Chicago), want to mount this in the attic of my two story house and would prefer to not have to run power for an amp. I don't mind spending a little money to do it right, I just don't know about antennas to make the proper selection.

Hi HD Mission. I live in Vernon Hills, not too far from you. I've had great success with a Channel Master 4228 for UHF in my attic, hooked into a Channel Master 7777 pre-amp. I get all the local digitals with no trouble at all.

With a pre-amp, you don't need a power outlet in your attic. It's two pieces, one piece mounted as close to the antenna as possible, and the other piece down the line near your distribution point, maybe in the basement, and within reach of a power outlet. That piece sends power up the coax to the other piece near your antenna.

Looking to get all locals including the stubborn ones (from what I read that is WBBM, must have CBS for NFL season.)

A home-made, folded dipole cut specifically for Channel 3 works great for me. Again, this is connected to the VHF input of the CM 7777 pre-amp. I followed the directions at this link: http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html

Please pass on any knowledge I can use to make the right choice.
Attic mounts can work, but if your attic has any metal foil in it, it will kill your signal. So will moisture or snow on the roof. If possible, try to position the antenna so it points out a vertical side wall in your attic, instead of the slanted roof. If you have a window in your attic, put the antenna there, as glass is more transparent to signals than wood.

Use RG-6 coax to connect everything, preferably quad-shielded.

Survey your attic before you make any antenna decisions. If you have supports every 2 feet like I do, it's basically impossible to get a big, combo VHF/UHF antenna up there. That's why I went with the separate, smaller antennas, one for each band.

If you have a lot of open space, a big combo antenna might be just the ticket. See Gilbert's recommendations at the beginning of this thread.

WillieAntenna

02-26-09, 09:48 AM

I think I'd be pretty ticked if a 747 tried to land in my backyard from a broken cable shield. :D

Oh Boy it would be something if that Airbus 380 :eek: that landed at O'Hare couple years ago laned in your back yard:D

Willie

155

02-26-09, 09:50 AM

A home-made, folded dipole cut specifically for Channel 3 works great for me. Again, this is connected to the VHF input of the CM 7777 pre-amp. I followed the directions at this link: http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html

So is a pre-amp the secret to a successful dipole setup? I live in Wheeling and I couldn't get the folded dipole to work, and other people on this forum couldn't get it to work.

bluegras

02-26-09, 11:15 AM

hey HVS what is going on with the construction permit on changing WMEU over to a low power digital station?

HD Mission

02-26-09, 11:36 AM

[QUOTE=George Mari;15916063]Hi HD Mission. I live in Vernon Hills, not too far from you. I've had great success with a Channel Master 4228 for UHF in my attic, hooked into a Channel Master 7777 pre-amp. I get all the local digitals with no trouble at all.QUOTE]

George,
I was hoping to get one UHF/VHF antenna and be done with it. But if your set-up works I would want to go with something proven. (I will have to hunt for the 4228 since many sites say it is discontinued) Do you have the 4228-HD? This was the replacement to the 4228. The only thing is I am not that confident/knoledgable in my ability to make my own VHF antenna. Is there an off the shelf model that could work?

Thanks for the help.

155

02-26-09, 11:58 AM

[QUOTE=George Mari;15916063]I was hoping to get one UHF/VHF antenna and be done with it. But if your set-up works I would want to go with something proven. (I will have to hunt for the 4228 since many sites say it is discontinued) Do you have the 4228-HD? This was the replacement to the 4228. The only thing is I am not that confident/knoledgable in my ability to make my own VHF antenna. Is there an off the shelf model that could work?

Thanks for the help.

HD Mission, I live in Wheeling and in my opinion you should try to pick up WBBM, and not worry about UHF.

I have been experimenting with different antennas, and the best I found was the Clearstream 2 (it gets 95% to 100% signal strength for everything), although the Terk HDTVa works as well (both can be picked up at Best Buy). Any well rated antenna will pick up the other stations. Everything is easy except for WBBM from our distance.

I haven't been able to pick up 2.1 at all no matter what I've tried indoors.

lohertz

02-26-09, 01:46 PM

So is a pre-amp the secret to a successful dipole setup? I live in Wheeling and I couldn't get the folded dipole to work, and other people on this forum couldn't get it to work.

YES/NO/MAYBE. The trick to making it work is patience. Now for WBBM it depends on a variety of things. my home made dipole picked up all the analog signals broadcasting on VHF, indoors (my daughter's room NE corner) without a preamp, even WBBM analog. It took some moving and dancing around (my daughter enjoyed that) to get a signal in but it does work. We could get a lock but no picture in RF 3 because the signal quality was just to eradic. A preamp may have helped but if the signal quality and strength is poor, theres nothing any amp would do. Now, i havent tried this yet, but If i put it on my roof, that maybe a different story.

Remember, The higher, the better, the bigger, the better, and definitely outdoors. You can eliminate the 90% of problems just by going outside and putting it on the roof/tower.

dmaster

02-26-09, 02:45 PM

lohertz

02-26-09, 02:57 PM

Wabonsee started broadcasting on channel 40? How long go did they start this. I never noticed before in a channel scan, and on occasion I could pick up WPXE-DT out of Milwaukee. In fact, I could get WPXE a couple weeks ago. It just so happens that Wabonsee's tower is directly in the path of Milwaukee, not that I'm gonna miss ION or anything, I get the same stations from Chicago. What type of programming can we expect out of this?

dmaster

02-26-09, 03:04 PM

What is the best way to strip twin lead? But when I strip it I end up with most of the copper in the jacket and a few strands of copper left for me to solder or screw into the transformer.

My WBBM reception experiences the past couple weeks...

Purchased Antennas Direct V4 low vhf antenna: FAIL
Went to Fry's and bought $9.99 100 ft Twin Lead and $1.50 transformer to make Folded Dipole: FAIL

Does anyone think buying a channel master 7777 would help either of the above projects? The people at a local mt prospect electronics shop didn't seem to think so.

Another question. My tv has never been able to receive channel 2. Since i can't run scan and add channel 2 if I just set it to 2.1 and move the antenna around will this work?

I've been trying to find it by setting manually adding WBBM to my HDHomerun's xml file, and setting that channel to view and moving the antenna around, which I hope is the way to go.

I'm between Aurora and Naperville and I use the Antennas Direct V4 with a Channel Master 7777 in my attic. I get 2.1 pretty reliably.

Hope that helps.

Dan (Woj...)

rosepetal9

02-26-09, 03:10 PM

Hello, I also can't always get 26 sub channels but 26.1 will come in. I am located in Porter Co. IN.

sebenste

02-26-09, 04:31 PM

Rammitinski

02-26-09, 05:35 PM

Really? On digital? What kind of programming do they show?

Can you get them from where you're at?

155

02-26-09, 06:14 PM

I'm between Aurora and Naperville and I use the Antennas Direct V4 with a Channel Master 7777 in my attic. I get 2.1 pretty reliably.

Is there a local source for the 7777 ?

sebenste

02-26-09, 06:53 PM

Really? On digital? What kind of programming do they show?

Can you get them from where you're at?

Nah, analog only. Telecourses and some sports of their own teams is what they typically show.

sebenste

02-26-09, 06:53 PM

Is there a local source for the 7777 ?

Tri-State Electronics.

http://www.tselectronic.com

bigdnwi

02-26-09, 07:40 PM

George Mari

02-26-09, 07:52 PM

So is a pre-amp the secret to a successful dipole setup? I live in Wheeling and I couldn't get the folded dipole to work, and other people on this forum couldn't get it to work.

If you're in an attic at suburban-or-beyond distances, you pretty much need a pre-amp with any antenna, folded dipole or otherwise.

I didn't start out knowing the folded dipole would work for me. When I setup my antennas around 18 months ago, I knew my biggest constraint would be that it would need to go in the attic. Knowing that, and knowing that I was 30 miles away, I knew I would most probably need the pre-amp to compensate for the loss of signal inside the attic compared to outdoors. I also know I would need a bigger antenna than I would for outdoor at my distance from the transmitters. I also knew that I couldn't fit a big combo UHF/VHF antenna inbetween the rafters/supports in my attic. That's why I went with a 2-antenna setup with the CM 4228 for UHF, and since I only had WBBM on VHF to worry about, I just thought I'd start with the simplest and cheapest VHF antenna that had a chance of working - the home-made folded dipole.

If it wouldn't have worked for me, I was planning on trying a commercial VHF-low yagi of some sort.

George Mari

02-26-09, 08:02 PM

George,
I was hoping to get one UHF/VHF antenna and be done with it.
As long as it fits in your attic, or you change your mind and put it on your roof, you're right - this is probably easiest. Go up in your attic and look around first, to see how much room you have, and see what your rafter situation is. Mine were every 2 feet, and at weird angles, so a UHF/VHF was out of the question for me.

But if your set-up works I would want to go with something proven. (I will have to hunt for the 4228 since many sites say it is discontinued) Do you have the 4228-HD? This was the replacement to the 4228.

I have the original model, without the HD at the end. From what I've read, the newer one is lighter, but more cheaply made, which probably isn't a factor if it's going in the attic, and out of the weather. It's also a couple dB down on the gain throughout it's range, again, from what I've read. It probably won't be a factor being as close as you are.

If you're going in the attic, at your location, you'll probably want a pre-amp, although you can test without it first and see how it goes. Although without the pre-amp, it's tough to join the separate UHF and VHF antennas.

Don't be afraid to look into other UHF antennas others recommend - there are several good quality UHF antennas out there.

The only thing is I am not that confident/knoledgable in my ability to make my own VHF antenna. Is there an off the shelf model that could work?

The only thing similar to a folded dipole I know of would be rabbit ears, but it's hard to find ones long enough.

dwright944

02-26-09, 11:17 PM

I noticed earlier during The Doctors that all the commercials were running flawlessly without the video jumping and stuttering. Now, The King of Queens looks perfect. I don't know what was done but big props to HVS and Co., now I can get my Stooge and Frasier fix without the analog signal. I wonder if the problem is gone on all tuners now, or if I just one of the lucky ones. The problem still exists on WPWR, however I don't watch anything on there so I could really care less about them.

Watching the King of Queens, 10:00 PM version and no stutter. My Samsung is now showing it like a normal TV for a change.

As a side note, I'm also getting WBBM 2.1, in the rain. When the weather clears, it will be gone.

swiat

02-27-09, 10:35 AM

Is there a local source for the 7777 ?

just be careful... if you're too close in the 7777 is a bad choice because it will overload your receiver and will go into crazy oscillations because of amplifier input overload from the high powered UHF channels. That's why I recommend the Winegard AP-8700... it's a little better in that respect for suburban viewers.

155

02-27-09, 10:48 AM

The folks at Tri-state were insistent that if I couldn't get reception for a channel that an amplifier wouldn't help me and didn't seem to want to sell it to me.

So I guess that I should go there and pretend that I'm not buying it to amplify a channel that I don't get (CBS) and buy a pre-amp.

lohertz

02-27-09, 10:54 AM

Goodness, for about a year or so. The weather is causing "skip" today and that's why you are probably seeing it.

LOL, I live about 10 mile from Waubonsee! HAHAHA:eek:

lohertz

02-27-09, 10:59 AM

I never really did pay any attention to the analog channels anyway

swiat

02-27-09, 01:58 PM

Is there a Home Shopping Network affiliate now on channel 25? I think I saw it once. I can't get WCGV-DT anymore.

KML-224

02-27-09, 02:10 PM

Here's an observation I made while staying at a hotel this week in Bedford Park on South Cicero Avenue: I was about a half mile south of Midway Airport. We've all heard how a passing plane would interfere with traditional analog reception. What effect do all those planes have on digital reception, if known? While at Midway on Wednesday morning, waiting for my flight back to Bradley Airport in Connecticut, I saw this one shop who had their TV on WGN-TV (CW) analog channel 9. The reception looked like crap.

dattier

02-27-09, 03:26 PM

Is there a Home Shopping Network affiliate now on channel 25?Yes, for some time now. It's the station that used to be on 46, W52BR I think?I can't get WCGV-DT anymore.I never could, but TitanTV thinks I can and lists it among ATSC stations for my zip code. Go figure.

tvropro

02-27-09, 08:09 PM

KML-224

02-27-09, 08:28 PM

tvropro

02-27-09, 09:24 PM

I hope you never have to cross South Cicero Avenue like I did! Anyways, are you able to get anything outside of the Chicago DMA? If not, do you have the same trouble with WBBM-DT (CBS) like everybody else here does? I doubt it'd be much better than the crappy analog signal I had of them on my hotel's "cable" in Bedford Park this week! :(

I've walked across Cicero ave before it can be hectic, the drivers are nuts they think it's the X-way. I can get ch 56, 17 (WYIN) DTV out of Indiana with no problem always. When tropo hits I can get South Bend, Milwaukee, Rockford etc. WBBM 3 digital almost gives me full scale on my Zenith DTT-900 perfect in all weather. Channel 2 analog looks okay too no snow or ghosts.

KML-224

02-27-09, 09:34 PM

justalurker

02-27-09, 09:41 PM

There is only ONE digital station in the Chicago market with a transmit site in Indiana.
There is only ONE OTHER digital station in the Chicago market not located downtown.
Yes, the city of license varies - but they are nearly all "Chicago" stations.

* Based on post transition transmit sites. Does not include any pre-transition sites I may have overlooked.

pm3839

02-27-09, 09:56 PM

Here's an observation I made while staying at a hotel this week in Bedford Park on South Cicero Avenue: ...... We've all heard how a passing plane would interfere with traditional analog reception. What effect do all those planes have on digital reception, if known? While at Midway on Wednesday morning, waiting for my flight back to Bradley Airport in Connecticut, I saw this one shop who had their TV on WGN-TV (CW) analog channel 9. The reception looked like crap.

its sometimes called AIRPLANE FLUTTER...its basically multi-path caused by a moving object large enough and high enough (and yet close enough) to reflect the tv signal to a homes tv receive antenna, the landing planes body/wings in this case... it only lasts a few seconds while the plane is landing and therefore low enough to be near your receive antenna ....so it probably wouldnt have much effect on digital....and i think its much more prevalent on vhf frequecies....i've heard it on fm radio as well...

re ch 9's poor 'ghosty' analog signal > i am not surprised....they've always had that problem, in my experience....analog ch 11 is also pretty bad....analog channel 7, 5 and 2 are much better....ch 7 has always been amazingly strong & 'ghost-free', not sure why...but analog ch 5 and 2 both got much better after they installed circularly polarized transmit antennas (versus horizontally polarized) in the late 80s or early 1990's....

circularly polarized tv transmit antennas seem to really clean up multi-path ghosting problems...i know it made a huge improvement for analog 5 and 2.....i dont know if analog ch 7 was always circularly polarized but it sure seems that way because it always looked great....as far as i know, analog 9 and 11 never upgraded to circularly polarized transmit antennas...i dont know if any chicago uhf's ever went to circularly polarized transmit antennas....maybe it doesnt help as much at uhf frequencies?

KML-224

02-27-09, 10:22 PM

Supposedly, WFSB-TV (CBS) channel 3 of Hartford, CT was circular polarized. I still got a crappy signal some 10 miles away in southern Hartford County. Anyways, I assume most of the digital signals are coming off of the Sears Tower. Is that what the two large white masts are at the top for?

swiat

02-27-09, 10:34 PM

Yes, for some time now.* It's the station that used to be on 46, W52BR I think?I never could, but TitanTV thinks I can and lists it among ATSC stations for my zip code.* Go figure.

Funny, I don't see any licensed Chicago channel 25 on the FCC database:
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=&call=&arn=&city=&chan=&cha2=69&serv=&type=0&facid=&list=2&dist=175&dlat2=42&mlat2=7&slat2=27&dlon2=87&mlon2=47&slon2=13&size=9

Is this an illegal station?

justalurker

02-27-09, 10:44 PM

The FCC database online is messed up at the moment.
Don't trust the results.

Eg: http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=IL&call=&arn=&city=Chicago&chan=&cha2=69&serv=&type=0&facid=&list=1&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&size=9

No WBBM 2 on the list at the moment ...

pm3839

02-27-09, 10:48 PM

Funny, I don't see any licensed Chicago channel 25 on the FCC database:
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=&call=&arn=&city=&chan=&cha2=69&serv=&type=0&facid=&list=2&dist=175&dlat2=42&mlat2=7&slat2=27&dlon2=87&mlon2=47&slon2=13&size=9
Is this an illegal station?

if its not illegal it sure should be! all these miserable shopping & bible thumper channels should never have been allowed to get on the air....we have the best government (and fcc) money can buy!

andyross63

02-28-09, 08:37 AM

Again, I've noticed this Saturday morning that many kids programs on WYCC are stretched vertically and compressed horizontally. You have to put the TV in FULL (like DVD anamorphic) to see it properly. This is on 20-1 and analog 20. 20-2 is OK. It's NOT my TV, as I see it across several, and even a tiny Casio LCD.

tvropro

02-28-09, 08:59 AM

WYIN-TV/DT is still technically the Chicago market. Licensed to Gary, IN, I think. Anyways. Sounds like you get some nice pickups there. During tropo times, did you ever get WWMT-TV (CBS) channel 3 (analog) out of Kalamazoo, MI? If so, how was WBBM-DT then? (Or was this in years past before digital?)

Years ago back in the 80's and 90's I had a killer stacked Winegard Antenna system with a CS-9095 and a CS-4052 with an Antennacraft FM antenna on the mast with a rotor. I did some great DX'ing with it. It crapped out in the middle 90's. It was a lot of fun :)

I used to get WWMT 3 out of Kalamazoo. If I swang the rotor I could get WISC out of Madison WI, also WCIA 3 in Champaign, IL came in on occasion.

Got Every channel out of Milwaukee, Rockford, Madison, South Bend, Fort Wayne. I had e-Skip from Nebraska knock out Channel 2 locally totally one day when I swang the array away from Chicago.

Some others places I remember receiving with tropo were, Detroit, Windsor, Ann Arbor, Grand Rapids, Dayton, Indianapolis, Peoria, Bloomington, Springfield, Quad Cities, Waterloo, Cedar Rapids, Saint Louis. On E-skip I got Butte Montana, Boston Ma, Tampa Fla, Dallas Tx. There were others but those seem to be stuck in my mind.

I may put up something with a rotor again for digital. I have a brand new UHF antenna and a rotor collecting dust. Was thinking about it last fall, before winter hit, maybe this summer.

Been mostly into C and Ku band satellite since 1987 so that fills the void nicely.

hvs10trk

02-28-09, 09:06 AM

if its not illegal it sure should be! all these miserable shopping & bible thumper channels should never have been allowed to get on the air....we have the best government (and fcc) money can buy!

It's legal.

tvropro

02-28-09, 09:12 AM

zippyfrog

02-28-09, 12:27 PM

Is anyone having any local issues today? I can only pick up digital for CBS, WGN, and FOX today. Those channels all have 8-10 bars (out of 10) of signal strength on my TV. But all my other channels - NBC, ABC, WTTW, Channel 20, ION, WPWR, I can't lock at all and I am receiving zero bars. Plus, on WCIU, it is broken and I am getting 0-1 out of 10 bars. Is something happening in the atmposphere that would cause this?

I looked at NBC's analog, and there are distinct diagonal static lines moving diagonally from left to right on my screen. See attached screen shot. Channel 26 analog also has a lot of snow and is very difficult to see. I have an indoor antenna, and nothing has changed with it over the past week. Any ideas why I can't get any of these channels all of a sudden?

sebenste

02-28-09, 12:54 PM

swiat

02-28-09, 02:09 PM

It's legal.

then why isn't in the FCC database I pulled up?

sebenste

02-28-09, 03:20 PM

then why isn't in the FCC database I pulled up?

It's down right now, much of it.

pm3839

03-01-09, 03:33 AM

Is anyone having any local issues today? I can only pick up digital for CBS, WGN, and FOX today. Those channels all have 8-10 bars (out of 10) of signal strength on my TV. But all my other channels - NBC, ABC, WTTW, Channel 20, ION, WPWR, I can't lock at all and I am receiving zero bars. Plus, on WCIU, it is broken and I am getting 0-1 out of 10 bars. Is something happening in the atmposphere that would cause this? I looked at NBC's analog, and there are distinct diagonal static lines moving diagonally from left to right on my screen. See attached screen shot. Channel 26 analog also has a lot of snow and is very difficult to see. I have an indoor antenna, and nothing has changed with it over the past week. Any ideas why I can't get any of these channels all of a sudden?

everything here seems to be ok...u must have a loose/bad antenna connector or some other kind of problem on your end...i think those static lines on analog ch 5 imply a low signal situation...plus theres no way all those channels would all have major problems and all at the same time....

hvs10trk

03-01-09, 08:49 AM

then why isn't in the FCC database I pulled up?

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=61692

The call sign changes when the channel nubmer changes.

bluegras

03-01-09, 08:55 AM

hey HVS i found out on fcc website about your modification of contruction permit.so does that mean something will be going on real soon?

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=168662#10001

zippyfrog

03-01-09, 10:03 AM

everything here seems to be ok...u must have a loose/bad antenna connector or some other kind of problem on your end...i think those static lines on analog ch 5 imply a low signal situation...plus theres no way all those channels would all have major problems and all at the same time....

Yeah, you are right. After walking around to all my connections, strangely enough it was the one in the room with the TV that was slightly loose...sometimes I don't think of the obvious...

One other question one of you experienced TV techies can give. I have two antenna's and I would like to join them - one antenna is pointing towards Rockford and one is pointing towards Chicago. Currently I switch between the two antennas to see the different channels. I know there is a connector I can use to join two signals, but would I get the same results by using a 2 way signal splitter backwards? Basically plug the two antennas into the "out" positions and then plug the cable that leads to the TV in the "in" position? Would I damage the pre-amp or something if I did that?

George Molnar

03-01-09, 10:43 AM

Yeah, you are right. After walking around to all my connections, strangely enough it was the one in the room with the TV that was slightly loose...sometimes I don't think of the obvious...

One other question one of you experienced TV techies can give. I have two antenna's and I would like to join them - one antenna is pointing towards Rockford and one is pointing towards Chicago. Currently I switch between the two antennas to see the different channels. I know there is a connector I can use to join two signals, but would I get the same results by using a 2 way signal splitter backwards? Basically plug the two antennas into the "out" positions and then plug the cable that leads to the TV in the "in" position? Would I damage the pre-amp or something if I did that?Merging two U/V antennas in different directions onto one downlead can cause problems. The antenna from the wrong direction can pick up reflections of stations from the other direction, which will cause phase cancellations and signal blackouts, esp. as the reflections are changed by wind or atmospheric and other conditions. You could use a single channel combiner (like the CM Jointenna) for one channel, but for two or more channels it gets pretty complicated, and the A/B switch you have now is the better and more reliable solution.

pm3839

03-01-09, 12:52 PM

Yeah, you are right. After walking around to all my connections, strangely enough it was the one in the room with the TV that was slightly loose...sometimes I don't think of the obvious...One other question one of you experienced TV techies can give. I have two antenna's and I would like to join them - one antenna is pointing towards Rockford and one is pointing towards Chicago. Currently I switch between the two antennas to see the different channels.... would I get the same results by using a 2 way signal splitter backwards? Basically plug the two antennas into the "out" positions and then plug the cable that leads to the TV in the "in" position? Would I damage the pre-amp or something if I did that?

try it...i really doubt theres any chance of damaging a pre-amp....there are some possible phasing problems but if it works for all the channels u need thats all that counts....and u'll lose 3 db of signal going thru a 2 way combiner/splitter....otherwise u have nothing to lose by trying.....

i am surprised u can get rockford so easily....youre pretty far away from rockford, arent u?....which rockford channels do u regularly get now? are there any worthwhile rockford channels that are more than just clones of the major abc, cbs, nbc, etc networks?

let us know if it works and how many channels u end up getting....

zippyfrog

03-01-09, 02:18 PM

try it...i really doubt theres any chance of damaging a pre-amp....there are some possible phasing problems but if it works for all the channels u need thats all that counts....and u'll lose 3 db of signal going thru a 2 way combiner/splitter....otherwise u have nothing to lose by trying.....

i am surprised u can get rockford so easily....youre pretty far away from rockford, arent u?....which rockford channels do u regularly get now? are there any worthwhile rockford channels that are more than just clones of the major abc, cbs, nbc, etc networks?

let us know if it works and how many channels u end up getting....

With the Rockford stations, I can pull in WTVO (ABC) at 4-5 bars and WGRF (FOX) with 1-2 bars (very weak), but haven't been able to pull in their CBS or NBC affliliate. Before they cut off their analog signals, I was able to get 13 analog very clear, but since have gotten zero signal for 13; and have never been able to get the CBS affiliate. And this is being done with an indoor antenna. The fact I can't get NBC really surprises me because according to the FCC maps, I am easily in the area to pick up that channel, but am borderline for the others that I do pick up.

dicko2

03-01-09, 04:20 PM

One other question one of you experienced TV techies can give. I have two antenna's and I would like to join them - one antenna is pointing towards Rockford and one is pointing towards Chicago. Currently I switch between the two antennas to see the different channels. I know there is a connector I can use to join two signals, but would I get the same results by using a 2 way signal splitter backwards? Basically plug the two antennas into the "out" positions and then plug the cable that leads to the TV in the "in" position? Would I damage the pre-amp or something if I did that?

Go for it. I used to have 2 antennas, one pointed toward Chicago, one pointed toward Milwaukee, both combined with a backwards splitter. It worked great except for one thing. Prior to the analog shutdown many Madison analog stations were co-channel many Chicago digital stations. By putting that antenna toward Milwaukee, it leaked just enough signal from Madison to destroy reception on many of the Chicago stations. I took it down last fall when it looked like a sure bet that WBBM would be moving to ch12 by Feb. I can get WBBM in the fall/winter when there are no leaves around, but not in the summer.

Now it appears the antenna has to go back up, at least until June, but since all of Madison's cochannel interferers are shut down, I expect it to work much better now.

You will lose some signal strength in the combiner, at least 3db, so your reception of stations that you now get off of one antenna may become spotty.

WillieAntenna

03-01-09, 08:54 PM

Now it appears the antenna has to go back up, at least until June, but since all of Madison's cochannel interferers are shut down, I expect it to work much better now.

You might still have problem with Madison WMTV 15 and Chicago WGN 9 both on RF 19 for Digtial :mad:.

Willie

WillieAntenna

03-01-09, 08:58 PM

With the Rockford stations, I can pull in WTVO (ABC) at 4-5 bars and WGRF (FOX) with 1-2 bars (very weak), but haven't been able to pull in their CBS or NBC affliliate. Before they cut off their analog signals, I was able to get 13 analog very clear, but since have gotten zero signal for 13; and have never been able to get the CBS affiliate. And this is being done with an indoor antenna. The fact I can't get NBC really surprises me because according to the FCC maps, I am easily in the area to pick up that channel, but am borderline for the others that I do pick up.

WREX -13 went back to old analog channel 13 from 54 for Digtial.

Willie

lohertz

03-01-09, 09:40 PM

Y
One other question one of you experienced TV techies can give. I have two antenna's and I would like to join them - one antenna is pointing towards Rockford and one is pointing towards Chicago. Currently I switch between the two antennas to see the different channels. I know there is a connector I can use to join two signals, but would I get the same results by using a 2 way signal splitter backwards? Basically plug the two antennas into the "out" positions and then plug the cable that leads to the TV in the "in" position? Would I damage the pre-amp or something if I did that?

Go for it. I used to have 2 antennas, one pointed toward Chicago, one pointed toward Milwaukee, both combined with a backwards splitter. It worked great except for one thing. Prior to the analog shutdown many Madison analog stations were co-channel many Chicago digital stations. By putting that antenna toward Milwaukee, it leaked just enough signal from Madison to destroy reception on many of the Chicago stations. I took it down last fall when it looked like a sure bet that WBBM would be moving to ch12 by Feb. I can get WBBM in the fall/winter when there are no leaves around, but not in the summer.

Now it appears the antenna has to go back up, at least until June, but since all of Madison's cochannel interferers are shut down, I expect it to work much better now.

You will lose some signal strength in the combiner, at least 3db, so your reception of stations that you now get off of one antenna may become spotty.

Go for that's what I'm doing if it ever warms uo

dcraig500

03-02-09, 02:52 PM

Yes, for some time now.* It's the station that used to be on 46, W52BR I think?I never could, but TitanTV thinks I can and lists it among ATSC stations for my zip code.* Go figure.

Well, that's just GREAT. Good luck trying to DX WEEK-DT out of Peoria now during Tropo, now that they are moving back to RF25 from RF57, for anyone who likes to do that stuff. At least there's still hope for WMBD. I wish this garbage was banned. Anyone know where the transmitter site is at, I think I remember that analog 46 was in Tinley Park?

sebenste

03-02-09, 05:50 PM

Well, that's just GREAT. Good luck trying to DX WEEK-DT out of Peoria now during Tropo, now that they are moving back to RF25 from RF57, for anyone who likes to do that stuff. At least there's still hope for WMBD. I wish this garbage was banned. Anyone know where the transmitter site is at, I think I remember that analog 46 was in Tinley Park?

AON building. The only TV site up there. WMBD gets interference from 30 in Plano. You have to wait until the LP analogs go off, if you're close to Chicago, to get the distant full-powers.

dattier

03-02-09, 06:51 PM

You have to wait until the LP analogs go off, if you're close to Chicago, to get the distant full-powers.I'd be content if the FP analogs went off so that we could get the local FP digitals.

sebenste

03-02-09, 06:54 PM

I'd be content if the FP analogs went off so that we could get the local FP digitals.

Point. Game. Set. Match. :D

KML-224

03-02-09, 06:55 PM

Is any Chicago TV station going back to their analog frequency for their permanent digital assignment? In my market (Hartford/New Haven), ION already did and CW will by June.

dattier

03-02-09, 07:10 PM

Point. Game. Set. Match.Thank you. May I use the prize money to buy a universe where analog in its counterpart to the US ended on February 17?

Is any Chicago TV station going back to their analog frequency for their permanent digital assignment? In my market (Hartford/New Haven), ION already did and CW will by June.WLS is an ABC O&O on analog 7, and it's moving its digital to 7 (current assignment is 52, out of core, so it has to move anyway) if analog ever ends.

WillieAntenna

03-02-09, 07:11 PM

Is any Chicago TV station going back to their analog frequency for their permanent digital assignment? In my market (Hartford/New Haven), ION already did and CW will by June.

WLS-7 currently on 52 will switch back June 12,2009 and I belive that is the only station that will go back to thier analog channel.

Willie

pm3839

03-02-09, 08:42 PM

AON building. The only TV site up there. WMBD gets interference from 30 in Plano. You have to wait until the LP analogs go off, if you're close to Chicago, to get the distant full-powers.

the aon building?....wow.....i didnt know any tv transmitters were anywhere but on sears or hancock....makes sense tho, aon is almost as tall and hopefully much lower roof space rental costs...i bet the sears & hancock rates are astronomical....

seems like aon would be a good place for fm's too?

dattier

03-03-09, 12:25 AM

seems like aon would be a good place for fm's too?
And it's conveniently located for reception on antennas that were installed to point at the next edifice west of it back when all the transmitters were there.

sebenste

03-03-09, 01:15 AM

Thank you.* May I use the prize money to buy a universe where analog in its counterpart to the US ended on February 17?

Even though the economy isn't good, I haven't seen parallel universes go on sale yet. Sorry! :D

sebenste

03-03-09, 01:17 AM

And it's conveniently located for reception on antennas that were installed to point at the next edifice west of it back when all the transmitters were there.

From what I understand, AON doesn't have room for a bunch of transmitters, nor do they want them. A LPTV station uses a small transmitter that can fit on top of a workbench, with a small antenna.

sebenste

03-03-09, 01:21 AM

Hey all,

As of tonight, I am getting three 23-1's here in DeKalb. Let me explain.

1. Being in DeKalb, I can occasionally lock PSIP on the low-power digital WMME-LD (MeTV) on 39, now that Rockford's 39 is off the air. It resolves to 23-1.

2. Also, being close to Rockford, I get CBS WIFR-DT. It's on channel 41, but it resolves to 23-1.

3. And now, as of tonight, it appears as though WCIU is doing a "double remap" of MeTV from 26-2. It is now being sent as 26-2 AND 23-1. Do a rescan and you'll see it.

My poor Zenith DTT-900, horribly confused, has now taken the low-power WWME-LD (#1 above) and bumped it to 23-2. It can't handle three 23-1's.
So I can get MeTV on 23-1, 23-2 and 26-2 on my tuner.

AND...I am also seeing a 48.1 with MeToo on it, with signal pegged...obviously a double-remap of 26.3.
Yep, just so you know...it's all about Me. :D

kd9fz

03-03-09, 06:57 AM

tvropro

03-03-09, 08:32 AM

i got this too when i turned the tv on at 5 am today
23.1 is on rf 27
23.2 is on rf 39

26.1, 26.2, 26.3, 26.4, 26.6 and 48.1 are all on rf 27

so i am seeing is 7 channels all on rf 27

i really want to know how this trick is done
as mr. spock would say, "fascinating"

comments, criticisms and questions of sanity are always welcome
kd9fz

I noticed this too, there is no real trick, it's called mapping. They can call any channel number what they want even though it's not on the real RF channel. Cable has been doing it for years.

goaliebob99

03-03-09, 09:23 AM

If they turn off maping to 26.2, and 26.3 no one would even know that its broadcasting from wciu's main system, unless they use tsreader to analyze the signal or something. Very smart and sneaky! :D

dattier

03-03-09, 11:19 AM

If they turn off maping to 26.2 and 26.3Bob was speaking hypothetically, of course, but I'd be very surprised if Weigel dropped 26.2 and 26.3; they've advertised "four for free from the U and Me" too heavily not to have all four under 26.x.

Back to Bob:... no one would even know that its broadcasting from wciu's main system, unless they use tsreader to analyze the signal or something.The Channel Edit function of the Digital Stream DTX9950 CECB displays the actual RF channel, so that's an "or something."

Another bit of fun is to try tuning in 23.1 before your tuner knows about the realignment on RF27. It seeks RF39 (where 23.1 used to be) and finds that there is no 23.1 on RF39 any more, so it gives you a blank screen ... or bounces to 23.2, depending on the tuner.

Anyhow, all this raises the question: if RF27 is keying the virtual channel translations so that MeTV via WCIU-DT shows up on both 23.1 and 26.2, and so that MeToo shows up on both 26.3 and 48.1, what's the point of having WWME-LD on RF39 any more and what would be the point of having a WMEU-LD on RF46?

dattier

03-03-09, 11:44 AM

You know, I wonder if this is related to the blurb on the front of the Tribune's TV listings Sunday, which said that they'd be sticking with listings only for cable and analog OTA for now, and not including OTA subchannels, and giving a little chart saying to find WWME/23's digital signal on 26.2 and WMEU/48's digital signal on 26.3.

WWME-LD has been airing MeTV on 23.1 for a year, but now MeToo is on 48.1 as well, and since November 11.1 has shown the same programming as analog 11. So now, for every analog channel N in the Tribune's grid (except WOCK-CA, which has no digital signal yet), its digital counterpart's virtual channel is N.1.

KML-224

03-03-09, 12:17 PM

Damn! I live in Connecticut and I'm confused too! I thought WCIU-DT had those channels on their digital subchannel as 26-2, 26-3, etc? (A week later and I'm still wondering why WCIU-TV wasn't on my hotel's "cable"?)

lohertz

03-03-09, 01:10 PM

Ok, so I had two 23.1. One was a blank screen and the other MeTV. And so your saying they're changing?
What happens after June.
How often should I rescan?
Is there a website?
I heard about all kinds of .gov sites, will that help?
Is there a coupon for that.
How do I know whats on.
How come there is a 47.7 and 47.8 with a black screen?

:confused::eek::confused::eek::confused::eek::confused::eek: :confused:

J/K LOL :D

WillieAntenna

03-03-09, 06:48 PM

155

03-03-09, 06:49 PM

Even though the economy isn't good, I haven't seen parallel universes go on sale yet. Sorry! :D

It's not likely considering the forces delaying the transition are currently hard at work decimating our economy. If you could go to an alternate universe where those forces aren't, then the economy might not be so bad, and thus a trip there might not ever go on sale.

retromzc

03-03-09, 08:09 PM

WCIU-DT CONFUSION

Ok, now both of my Directv H-20 receivers are totally confused. I now have 23-1 and 23-2 both with MeTv programming. One has guide data, one does not. I have NO 26-1 anymore. I still have 26-2, 26-3, 26-4 and 26-6 but 26-1 is nowhere to be found. I have 48-1 with 26-1 guide data but MeToo programming. I have rescanned both receivers several times with the same results. I want my U back!

jimboy

03-03-09, 10:27 PM

For those in far north side of Chicago Milwaukee WVTV-18 and WCGV-24 analog will end the "Nightlight" tonight at 11:59 PM or at 23:59. Ch 18 digtial is on ch61 will go back to 18 for digtial at later date and ch 24 digtial is on ch 25 and will stay on that channel, both are sister station of Sinclare.

Willie

Add another 12 hours to that shutoff time. Why put off tonight what you can put off tomorrow (well at least during business hours).

dattier

03-04-09, 01:10 AM

Someone went onto our roof today for us with intent to disconnect the RG6 from the unused Sprint Broadband Direct pizzabox dish and to connect it to the TV antenna in lieu of the RG59 on it now. He found that the coax to the dish running under the shingles (made sense in retrospect, because Sprint installed it in 2000 and we got a new first roof in 2002) and that the length going up the stand and the mast would not reach to the TV antenna, so he came down having done nothing. Apparently the only solutions will be to move the antenna onto the pizzabox's mast or to mount a new antenna there. Or I guess a coupler and another short length of RG6 to reach to the TV antenna would do it, with some duct tape around the coupler to protect it against the elements.

However, although he left the existing antenna and its cable untouched, somehow the four weakest stations (WBBM-DT, WWME-LD, WXFT-DT, and WGBO-DT) are now unreceivable, even though I took a splitter out of the path downstream (the other TV to which the signal was split is now back on Comcast's coax, using its QAM tuner). They come in as well as before on the indoor antennas feeding the second-floor televisions, so atmospheric conditions don't seem to be the reason.

WWME-LD is replicated on two of WCIU-DT's stations and, since we're not Hispanic, we can manage without WXFT-DT and WGBO-DT, but it's a shame not to get WBBM-DT any more. (Yes, I know that many of you have never or almost never been able to receive WBBM-DT.) Maybe if the analog shutoff ever happens and the plans to move to RF12 atop Sears Tower come to be, but I've little hope of seeing that on June 13, 2009.

TheKorn

03-04-09, 03:22 PM

it's a shame not to get WBBM-DT any more.* (Yes, I know that many of you have never or almost never been able to receive WBBM-DT.)* Maybe if the analog shutoff ever happens and the plans to move to RF12 atop Sears Tower come to be, but I've little hope of seeing that on June 13, 2009.

TheKorn offers dattier a vial of goat's blood and a sacrificial virgin, and speaks: "Start dancing. And congress sucks."

TheKorn

03-04-09, 04:30 PM

Ok, now both of my Directv H-20 receivers are totally confused. I now have 23-1 and 23-2 both with MeTv programming. One has guide data, one does not.

You're confused? Think of how confused I was when I was getting different signal strengths trying to tune in 23-1 and 23-2! (That shouldn't be possible if they're on the same carrier!)

Until I looked more closely at my most recent channel scan...

http://www.thekorn.net/temp/new_channel_scan2.png

Ohhh. So 23-2 is not on 23 at all (neither is 23-1, FWIW), but is a single channel all by its lonesome on channel 39. Thanks Weigel Broadcasting for making it all so clear!

Seriously, WTF. I'm happy Weigel wants to get me MeTV so badly. Really, I wish WBBM gave 1/5th of a crap about getting their signal to us as Weigel does MeTV. But this is a bit ridiculous! If WE can't figure it out (and we are the few that actually give two craps!) then you darn well know Average Joe is completely lost at this point. (And I'm entirely mystified as to why Me-Too is being carried twice on channel 27!)

FWIW, I'm in the same state as you now, where 2/3rds of my MeTVs now have guide data:

http://www.thekorn.net/temp/me_tv_overload.png

I have NO 26-1 anymore.

No idea on that one; it's coming in fine here.

hvs10trk

03-04-09, 05:01 PM

Hi Guys and thanks for your feedback on our new "mappings". Based on the feedback we've received from new viewers, we decided to try something new to make MeTV and MeToo easier to find on the dial. Sorry for the confusion and please bear with us. :)

andyross63

03-04-09, 05:06 PM

As far as I'm concerned, the on-screen numbers should 'tied' to the RF. Don't give two different channel numbers to the same RF feed. It is way too confusing unless there is NO way somebody could receive multiple versions. Not only are people confused, but I would guess this may mess up many tuners that weren't designed to handle something like that.

andyross63

03-04-09, 05:11 PM

Since WWME-LD is only a single SD feed right now, is there some way that extra bandwidth could somehow be used to make the signal usable with a weaker signal? Is there some form of error correction or other type of enhancement?

goaliebob99

03-04-09, 05:34 PM

What would happen if you mapped me tv to 23-1 and me too to 48-1 on both frequency's and gotten rid of the 26.2 and 26.3 from dt 27. Would that cause some sort of confusion with the same channel on two diffrent rf frequency's. That would get rid of the confusion, and allow everyone to find it on the dial in the right spot. I think at worse, you would get two 23-1's listed. A user would be able to pick and choose wich one they wanted by deleting the one with the worse signal manually. I dont know if the tuners would be smart enough to pick one and stick with it, if the other one went out then use the 2nd rf channel.

tvmicrowave2002

03-04-09, 08:36 PM

Guys, enjoy the thread. The reality is this: We're all techno geeks. The average joe will not be confused, they'll simply think that 23.1 is the digital subchannel for WWME-23 and 48.1 is the digital subchannel for WMEU-48 and from their prospective, it is. Who cares if it's duped on 26.2 and 26.3. Many people call us confused why after spending $50 they can no longer see MeTV and MeToo anymore. Before you can finish explaining it's on 26.2 and 26.3 they cut you off saying they don't care about channel 26 or any other channel, they just want MeTV.

retromzc

03-04-09, 08:49 PM

26-1 IS BACK ON DIRECTV RECEIVER

Ok, I just did a quick check and 26-1 is now back on both Directv receivers with correct guide data, and 48-1 is now showing guide data for MeToo as it should be. If some changes were made, they worked :-)

hvs10trk

03-04-09, 10:07 PM

Trip in VA

03-04-09, 10:27 PM

Ouch. I know there are multiple receivers that will freak on stations doing "split mapping" like that.

One of them just refuses to decode anything on stations like that. I can't watch Fox-HD at school on it.

- Trip

goaliebob99

03-04-09, 10:37 PM

Everything is on WCIU-DT for a reason and its a really good reason.

No I understand that, I was wondering what the impact would be having two different rf channels mapping to the same channel. Out here in the sticks it wouldnt matter as we cant get 23.1 from its current lp tranmsitter and have to rely on dt 27. But in the city it might cause mapping issues of some sort. For instance im talking about 26.2 and metv's lp counter part both mapping to 23.1 For wciu's case it would make seance as both channels are the same so it wouldn't matter wich one the receiver picked up.

BTW getting rid of 26.2 and 26.3 mappings would not create any space for additional channels as the channels are only mapped to new locations and are physically still there.

KML-224

03-04-09, 11:24 PM

OK. I'm still confused. Take away the low-power stations for a moment. I know that WCIU-TV is analog channel 26 while WCIU-DT is digital channel 27. Aren't these stations supposed to map as 26-1, 26-2, 26-3 and 26-4?

Here in Hartford/New Haven, WHPX-DT channel 26 of New London, CT is our ION affiliate (was analog channel 26 until that went off the air on February 17th). WHPX-DT has three subchannels which map as 26-1 (ION), 26-2 (Qubo), 26-3 (ION Life) and 26-4 (Worship).

Trip in VA

03-04-09, 11:38 PM

It sounds to me like they're mapping as such:

Physical 27.3 maps to 26-1
Physical 27.4 maps to 26-2 AND 23-1
Physical 27.5 maps to 26-3 AND 48-1
Physical 27.6 maps to 26-4
Physical 27.8 maps to 26-6

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

- Trip

sebenste

03-04-09, 11:46 PM

Before you can finish explaining it's on 26.2 and 26.3 they cut you off saying they don't care about channel 26 or any other channel, they just want MeTV.

And that's the crux of it right there, gang. I think what TVMicrowave2002 is doing is the right thing. ME-TV analog advertises itself as 23 over-the-air, and MeToo as 48, so it makes absolute sense to me that they should be doing PSIP as 23.1 and 48.1.

Should 26.2 and 26.3 then stay on? Yes, since they are advertised as such. Some will find it as 23.1, some as 23.2, some as 26.2. Some will find MeToo on 26.3, some on 48.1. For us techno-geeks, we can merely cancel out some of the extras. Or for geeks like me, I'll keep all 3 MeTV's going! :D

justalurker

03-05-09, 12:51 AM

If it is anything like satellite channel mirrors there will be people who will swear that 26.2 looks better than 23.1 ... and vice versa ... even if they are both from OTA DT 27. :D

So what is the mapping on the DTs that 23 and 48 belong on? If one gets both DT 27 and the local LP will one have two 23.1 or 48.1 or does the local map to another dot channel?

dattier

03-05-09, 01:03 AM

If one gets both DT 27 and the local LP will one have two 23.1 or 48.1 or does the local map to another dot channel?As to 23.1, RF39's WWME signal maps to 23.2 now that the one from RF27 is on 23.1, so there is no conflict. As to 48.1, WMEU-LD on RF46 isn't in service yet, so there's only one 48.x DTV channel in Chicago, and it's on RF27.

If both RF39's and RF27's WWME signals mapped to 23.1, then I suppose that most tuners would have two 23.1's, while some would have whichever was found more recently. That is based on my experiences during WLS's testing, when there were two 7.1's, two 7.2's, and two 7.3's during the tests. My CECBs each had all six channels, and if I remember right so did two of our TVs with ATSC tuners, but the other TV could have only one of each virtual subchannel number, and from what I could tell, as it scanned, it would map those on RF7 only to clobber them with those from RF52 as it reached that point in the scan.

dattier

03-05-09, 01:16 AM

TheKorn offers dattier a vial of goat's blood and a sacrificial virgin, and speaks: "Start dancing. And congress sucks."Thank you for the thought. I put the two affected TVs back on the Comcast coax, and two of the three second-floor televisions can still get WBBM-DT over the air with indoor antennas.

If WE can't figure it out (and we are the few that actually give two craps!) then you darn well know Average Joe is completely lost at this point.Why did you think we couldn't figure it out? Didn't you read the posts that preceded yours? There was no mystery here. Most of us, I should think, were slightly surprised but nowise confused.

Ouch. I know there are multiple receivers that will freak on stations doing "split mapping" like that.

One of them just refuses to decode anything on stations like that. I can't watch Fox-HD at school on it.Is that very common? Of the seven ATSC tuners in my home -- tiny sample, but the sum total of my experience here -- all seven handled the mappings without trouble. It didn't bother any of them that virtual 23 has content from two physical channels nor that physical 27 has content for virtual channels with three different integer parts.

Trip in VA

03-05-09, 01:21 AM

Is that very common?* Of the seven ATSC tuners in my home -- tiny sample, but the sum total of my experience here -- all seven handled the mappings without trouble.* It didn't bother any of them that virtual 23 has content from two physical channels nor that physical 27 has content for virtual channels with three different integer parts.

I don't know how common it is among receivers, I just know that I have one of those 7" Insignia TVs that Best Buy had been selling as a portable DTV and it simply will not tune split mapped stations.

- Trip

justalurker

03-05-09, 01:26 AM

It certainly wipes out what I believed about what virtual channels stations were allowed to use ... typically their NTSC channel number regardless of ATSC channel used but we've seen some stations rebrand their ATSC to their ATSC channel number.

Having multiple main channel numbers on the same carrier is confusing ... but if they don't overlap the subchannel numbers it will help. Keeping TMS and the services that rely on knowing in advance where channels are to provide EPG up to date is important. If not updated the station may end up losing OTA customers who can't tune a channel that their receiver isn't told is available or who can't get an EPG for the channel. Not every receiver can scan for new channels and use PSIP data.

I like the concept ... I just hope that CECBs and receivers of all types can handle it.

TheKorn

03-05-09, 01:47 AM

Why did you think we couldn't figure it out?* Didn't you read the posts that preceded yours?

This (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15955814#post15955814) post, this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15956401#post15956401) post, and this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15962503#post15962503) post all seem to be confused, which is the antithesis of figuring it out.

dattier

03-05-09, 02:02 AM

This (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15955814#post15955814) post, this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15956401#post15956401) post, and this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15962503#post15962503) post all seem to be confused, which is the antithesis of figuring it out.Korn, I'll trust you on those and have not even looked up what those posts say (AVS Forum is always slow for me, and I'm falling asleep). But there were other posts by people who weren't confused. So all a confused reader of this thread had to do was to read some of the posts from people who got it, and then the originally confused reader would understand as well and wouldn't be confused any longer.

dattier

03-05-09, 02:04 AM

It certainly wipes out what I believed about what virtual channels stations were allowed to use ... typically their NTSC channel number regardless of ATSC channel used ...But that's exactly what's happening here. The new 23.1 has the same content as analog 23 (and so did the old 23.1, which is now 23.2); the new 48.1 has the same content as analog 48.

justalurker

03-05-09, 03:24 AM

By license, DT 27 isn't 23 or 48's digital companion channel. Yet DT 27 is using three main channel numbers. Not something that I would have expected to see.

hvs10trk

03-05-09, 06:07 AM

hvs10trk

03-05-09, 06:07 AM

No I understand that, I was wondering what the impact would be having two different rf channels mapping to the same channel. Out here in the sticks it wouldnt matter as we cant get 23.1 from its current lp tranmsitter and have to rely on dt 27. But in the city it might cause mapping issues of some sort. For instance im talking about 26.2 and metv's lp counter part both mapping to 23.1 For wciu's case it would make seance as both channels are the same so it wouldn't matter wich one the receiver picked up.

BTW getting rid of 26.2 and 26.3 mappings would not create any space for additional channels as the channels are only mapped to new locations and are physically still there.

Sorry, misunderstood you.

KML-224

03-05-09, 07:53 AM

OK...to anybody here who can get every single channel over the air that WCIU-DT offers with an antenna:

If you wind up with two identical services, do you simply keep the signal which is stronger at your receiver and delete the other? (e.g. keep WCIU-DT on your tuner but delete the low-power station with the same programming.) Case in point: Depending on how my indoor antenna is pointed, I can get both WHPX-DT channel 26 of New London, CT and WPXQ-DT channel 17 of Block Island/Providence, RI. They are both ION affiliates. Outside of an occasional advertisement, the two stations are identical. In that case, I deleted WPXQ-DT from Rhode Island.

swiat

03-05-09, 10:09 AM

swiat

03-05-09, 10:16 AM

And that's the crux of it right there, gang. I think what TVMicrowave2002 is doing is the right thing. ME-TV analog advertises itself as 23 over-the-air, and MeToo as 48, so it makes absolute sense to me that they should be doing PSIP as 23.1 and 48.1.

Does this mean we won't have to endure an RF 46 for WMEU-DT? That would be good news. Seems to me a flash cut to RF48 would be better for WMEU given the directional antenna away from South Bend and the high chance of interfering with WDJT-DT on RF46 from Milwaukee. I get WDJT-DT crystal clear and I don't want to lose it.

pm3839

03-05-09, 10:56 AM

dattier

03-05-09, 11:36 AM

If you wind up with two identical services, do you simply keep the signal which is stronger at your receiver and delete the other?I'm keeping both. There's no guarantee that the one with better reception today will be the one with better reception three weeks from the day after tomorrow.

If you surf a lot by pressing Channel Up or Channel Down, then I can see that multiple channels that will always (or virtually always in KML-224's example with ION) have the same programming will be annoying to click past, but if your usual tuning habit is to think of a channel and select it by number, there's nothing to be gained by deleting any of the channels.

If you do delete them, your choice might vary from tuner to tuner; my Zinwell ZAT-970A (an 0830 build) has suddently decided that it doesn't like RF27 nor RF59. I don't watch WXFT and it will be moving to RF50 if WPWR ever drops analog, but I needed the ZAT-970A almost solely for recording from WWME, so I've changed its timers to tune to 23.2 instead of 23.1.

TheKorn

03-05-09, 01:51 PM

If you wind up with two identical services, do you simply keep the signal which is stronger at your receiver and delete the other? (e.g. keep WCIU-DT on your tuner but delete the low-power station with the same programming.)

I keep the one that TMS' listing services knows about, and delete the other because it's useless to me without guide data.

In the case where I have multiples of the same content, if they're on the same carrier then I'll eventually program them out as they're just listings clutter with no benefit. But different carriers I'll probably leave in on the odd chance that one transmitter goes down and I want to watch that channel at the same time...

...not bloody likely, but it doesn't hurt to be prepared. :D

Now the spanish stations OTOH, those get programmed out entirely! (Nothing worse than having your DVR set up for keyword recording, and picking up a spanish recording by accident.)

swiat

03-05-09, 02:04 PM

Now the spanish stations OTOH, those get programmed out entirely! (Nothing worse than having your DVR set up for keyword recording, and picking up a spanish recording by accident.)

I guess you haven't seen the Telemundo/Univision gameshows then..
Worth watching for the "sights" even if you don't know a word of spanish. :)

andyross63

03-05-09, 05:16 PM

How about changing 26-2 to 26-23, and 26-3 to 26-48?? You could even change 26 to 26-26!!

retromzc

03-05-09, 07:43 PM

TUNERS CONFUSED AGAIN WITH WCIU-DT

Here we go again. My Directv ota tuners are completely confused again with WCIU and WWME-DT. WCIU-DT 26-1 is gone again. I can now only receive 26-1 if I tune several times to 48-1 which lists programming for WCIU-DT. I have rescanned numerous times with the same results. I give up.

bigdnwi

03-05-09, 07:51 PM

tvmicrowave2002

03-05-09, 07:55 PM

I'm keeping both.* There's no guarantee that the one with better reception today will be the one with better reception three weeks from the day after tomorrow.

If you surf a lot by pressing Channel Up or Channel Down, then I can see that multiple channels that will always (or virtually always in KML-224's example with ION) have the same programming will be annoying to click past, but if your usual tuning habit is to think of a channel and select it by number, there's nothing to be gained by deleting any of the channels.

If you do delete them, your choice might vary from tuner to tuner; my Zinwell ZAT-970A (an 0830 build) has suddently decided that it doesn't like RF27 nor RF59.* I don't watch WXFT and it will be moving to RF50 if WPWR ever drops analog, but I needed the ZAT-970A almost solely for recording from WWME, so I've changed its timers to tune to 23.2 instead of 23.1.
Datter, where are you located? I ask because we're currently using the Sears Master Panel Antenna for our DTV so is WXFT digital (59) and WCPX digital (43). We're replacing our analog panel antenna with a new digital slot in the summer and increasing our power to 550 kW ERP with an elliptical polarized antenna. No other UHF digital station in Chicago has an elliptical antenna. IMO, WCIU-DT will have the best penetration of all Chicago DTV UHF stations and the best coverage of all if a home user is using a UHF antenna to receive both UHF and VHF digital channels.

For the master antenna (that I've always hated but was signed before I started), I'm curious to know if WCPX gives you any trouble.

tvmicrowave2002

03-05-09, 08:03 PM

Last week, after months of the video stutter on 26.1, it all of a sudden went away. As of last night, it came back. I doubt any of the remappings would have caused something b/c 26.1 was fine Mon. & Tues. night. It's an issue with Harmonic HD encoders when running in 720p mode in a stat mux pool (multiple SD/HD streams with managed bandwidth). I see the same issue on WTTW-HD 11.1 but more pronounced on our 26.1. I'll make some changes tonight and report back tomorrow if you see a difference.

Gang, could use your help. It's tough to do a lot in 19.3 mb and yet we want picture quality that is on par with other services (dish/cable/etc). Since we have so many SD subchannels, we put new SD encoders online yesterday. These are the latest SD encoders from Harmonics running a version of firmware that has not been released to the public. I have all four subchannels set to the same quality. 26-6/FBT will look rough because most of it is brokered and thus very poor source material. The Chinese programming is tile-a-rama straight out of the sky. MeTV will not look DVD quality but curious to know if you guys see an improvement or not. These boxes are not cheap and no other US broadcaster using this configuration. Comments?

royotto1

03-05-09, 08:49 PM

I second the previous poster's comments. 26.1 was much better before the last change. The stuttering was gone. Now it's back and worse than ever.

KML-224

03-05-09, 09:21 PM

Thanks for all of the tips on channel 26 guys! With my indoor antenna's current position, it tunes and stores channel 26 (ION) from New London, CT. The tuner hesitates on channel 17, but the signal is too weak to lock on. Again, I won't lose sleep over WPXQ-DT since it's virtually identical to WHPX-DT. As for the WCIU-DT mess, I haven't seen a station in my market pulling stunts like this.

ourmuse

03-06-09, 12:18 AM

dattier

03-06-09, 01:07 AM

Datter, where are you located? ... I'm curious to know if WCPX gives you any trouble.I'm just under nine miles NNW of Sears Tower, and having no trouble with WCPX-DT that I've noticed.

My trouble today with WCIU-DT and WXFT-DT may be more antenna-related than tuner-related after all. In a way that's a relief, because it's easier to reposition an indoor antenna or wait for weather to change than to exchange a CECB that was purchsed four months ago.

Today I had occasion to go to LBO [Lincoln County as residents would like to call it] and detoured into downtown Mt. Prospect to see the famed Tri-State Electronic (no closing S, as in Soldier Field) at 14 and Pine. The fellow who helped me there heard my location and recommended an antenna called the Ghost Killer, which I gather is the Winegard HD7210P. The sick old thing on our roof has seen better days, heck, better decades.

TheKorn

03-06-09, 06:04 AM

I have two roof antennas and was wondering if I could point one toward Chicago and one toward milwaukee then connect them together into one coax to get the best reception from each antenna. Would this work or would each antenna interfere with each other?

The answer hasn't really changed in the last four days. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15941568#post15941568)

tvropro

03-06-09, 07:52 AM

Today I had occasion to go to LBO [Lincoln County as residents would like to call it] and detoured into downtown Mt. Prospect to see the famed Tri-State Electronic (no closing S, as in Soldier Field) at 14 and Pine.* The fellow who helped me there heard my location and recommended an antenna called the Ghost Killer, which I gather is the Winegard HD7210P.* The sick old thing on our roof has seen better days, heck, better decades.

I used to run the Winegard Ghost Killer CS-7210 (same antenna Tri State told you about) years ago to help clean up some nasty powerline interference from ch's 2 and 5. While it did a good job it didn't have the gain my big stack array also on my roof did. I used to toggle between the two when Com Ed started squawking. The 7210 was tight on the beamwidth though.

sebenste

03-06-09, 01:44 PM

It's an issue with Harmonic HD encoders when running in 720p mode in a stat mux pool (multiple SD/HD streams with managed bandwidth). I see the same issue on WTTW-HD 11.1 but more pronounced on our 26.1. I'll make some changes tonight and report back tomorrow if you see a difference.

Gang, could use your help. It's tough to do a lot in 19.3 mb and yet we want picture quality that is on par with other services (dish/cable/etc). Since we have so many SD subchannels, we put new SD encoders online yesterday. These are the latest SD encoders from Harmonics running a version of firmware that has not been released to the public. I have all four subchannels set to the same quality. 26-6/FBT will look rough because most of it is brokered and thus very poor source material. The Chinese programming is tile-a-rama straight out of the sky. MeTV will not look DVD quality but curious to know if you guys see an improvement or not. These boxes are not cheap and no other US broadcaster using this configuration. Comments?

TVM (BTW, for those who don't know, he's Chief Engineer at Weigel, who tries desperately in vain to keep HVS in line! :p;):D )...

I'm using a DTT-900 converter box and all 4 now no longer macroblock/tile except for 26-6, which is doing it from the bird. Looks good, no stuttering.

dattier

03-06-09, 02:41 PM

I used to run the Winegard Ghost Killer CS-7210 (same antenna Tri State told you about) years ago to help clean up some nasty powerline interference from ch's 2 and 5. While it did a good job it didn't have the gain my big stack array also on my roof did. I used to toggle between the two when Com Ed started squawking. The 7210 was tight on the beamwidth though.How far were you from the transmitters at the time? I'm just under nine miles from Sears Tower and just over eight miles from the Hancock Center, and the azimuths differ by a few degrees.

tvropro

03-06-09, 03:05 PM

How far were you from the transmitters at the time?* I'm just under nine miles from Sears Tower and just over eight miles from the Hancock Center, and the azimuths differ by a few degrees.

About 8 miles as the crow flies. What the 7210 is it has high directivity with lower gain. Normally you have to buy a deep fringe antenna to achieve this. The problem with that in an urban area with high gain is overloading. The 7210 is designed for the city within I say 15 miles.

hvs10trk

03-06-09, 03:11 PM

TVM (BTW, for those who don't know, he's Chief Engineer at Weigel, who tries desperately in vain to keep HVS in line! :p;):D )...

I'm using a DTT-900 converter box and all 4 now no longer macroblock/tile except for 26-6, which is doing it from the bird. Looks good, no stuttering.

I cannot be contained!!!!! :D:D:D

andyross63

03-06-09, 05:05 PM

Is this related to the SD encoder change or the messed up sub numbering? I no longer get title info on clear-QAM through Comcast for WCIU and subs. (Samsung LN-19A450) Clear-QAM numbering is still the standard 26-1/2/3/4/6.

My other TV with the Zenith DTT900 does show titles, and the confusing channel numbers.

dattier

03-06-09, 06:48 PM

I cannot be contained!!!!!That's why we've nicknamed you Universal Solvent.

What the 7210 is it has high directivity with lower gain. ... The 7210 is designed for the city within I say 15 miles.Thank you for explaining.

bigdnwi

03-06-09, 08:32 PM

It's an issue with Harmonic HD encoders when running in 720p mode in a stat mux pool (multiple SD/HD streams with managed bandwidth). I see the same issue on WTTW-HD 11.1 but more pronounced on our 26.1. I'll make some changes tonight and report back tomorrow if you see a difference.

Gang, could use your help. It's tough to do a lot in 19.3 mb and yet we want picture quality that is on par with other services (dish/cable/etc). Since we have so many SD subchannels, we put new SD encoders online yesterday. These are the latest SD encoders from Harmonics running a version of firmware that has not been released to the public. I have all four subchannels set to the same quality. 26-6/FBT will look rough because most of it is brokered and thus very poor source material. The Chinese programming is tile-a-rama straight out of the sky. MeTV will not look DVD quality but curious to know if you guys see an improvement or not. These boxes are not cheap and no other US broadcaster using this configuration. Comments?

26.1 was still studdering during The King of Queens. I did think the SD subs looked a little better, not as much blocking.

goaliebob99

03-06-09, 10:28 PM

Does anyone want to update post 1. February has come and gone :D

sebenste

03-06-09, 11:32 PM

Does anyone want to update post 1. February has come and gone :D
Oops, I've been real busy since December! I just updated the first three posts. Thanks.

justalurker

03-07-09, 12:36 AM

A good reminder ... my market's thread had not been updated since 2003. :D
Fixed now!

pm3839

03-07-09, 08:31 AM

.....we're currently using the Sears Master Panel Antenna for our DTV so is WXFT digital (59) and WCPX digital (43). We're replacing our analog panel antenna with a new digital slot in the summer and increasing our power to 550 kW ERP with an elliptical polarized antenna. No other UHF digital station in Chicago has an elliptical antenna. IMO, WCIU-DT will have the best penetration of all Chicago DTV UHF stations and the best coverage of all if a home user is using a UHF antenna to receive both UHF and VHF digital channels. ......

?...the Sears Master Panel Antenna? please tell us in detail what that is....it sounds very interesting.....i assume u mean the SEARS building and not something one would buy at a local SEARS store?...lol

andyross63

03-07-09, 08:41 AM

26.1 was still studdering during The King of Queens. I did think the SD subs looked a little better, not as much blocking.
No problems last night with my Samsung LN19A450, at least via Comcast clearQAM.

hvs10trk

03-07-09, 09:11 AM

?...the Sears Master Panel Antenna? please tell us in detail what that is....it sounds very interesting.....i assume u mean the SEARS building and not something one would buy at a local SEARS store?...lol

Its an antenna up on top of Sears tower that any broadcaster can have access to. It's a broadband antenna meaning it's not channel specific so the gain isn't as good. Plus we're limited to power output.

George Mari

03-07-09, 11:26 AM

Gang, could use your help. It's tough to do a lot in 19.3 mb and yet we want picture quality that is on par with other services (dish/cable/etc). Since we have so many SD subchannels, we put new SD encoders online yesterday. These are the latest SD encoders from Harmonics running a version of firmware that has not been released to the public. I have all four subchannels set to the same quality. 26-6/FBT will look rough because most of it is brokered and thus very poor source material. The Chinese programming is tile-a-rama straight out of the sky. MeTV will not look DVD quality but curious to know if you guys see an improvement or not. These boxes are not cheap and no other US broadcaster using this configuration. Comments?

I see a small improvement on the sub-channels. I have a 37" Mitsubishi LCD. If I'm at least 6 feet away from it, it all looks fine. Closer than that, and I can see artifacts and tiles, but part of that is the set stretching out the image to 16:9.

Before, the artifacts and tiling was a bit more noticeable.

George Mari

03-07-09, 11:32 AM

I'm noticing this morning, for the past several hours, video hesitation or stutter on 26-1 OTA this morning. The audio never falters or drops out, but every 2 seconds or so, the video image will freeze, the audio continues, then the video image "jumps" up to the spot in synch with the audio. A little bit of breakup occurs when it jumps.

All of the WCIU-DT sub-channels are fine, so I don't think it's a local reception problem, but I checked 26 on my DirecTV box, and it's fine, with no hesitation.

Anyone else seeing this?

hvs10trk

03-07-09, 01:13 PM

George Mari

03-07-09, 03:21 PM

We know it's there and are working diligently to identify the culprit and fix it.

Ok, thanks. I wasn't sure if it was the same thing people were mentioning from a couple of days ago, so I thought I'd mention it.

Bink

03-07-09, 08:13 PM

WillieAntenna

03-07-09, 09:33 PM

Hi Gilbert,

I see you updated first page posts but I see in post #9, you listed WLS (53) for digitial instead of 52.

Willie

Bink

03-07-09, 09:39 PM

Hi Gilbert,

I see you updated first page posts but I see in post #9, you listed WLS (53) for digtial instead of 52.

Willie

I'm hoping he spelled digital correctly?

Elmpark

03-07-09, 09:45 PM

pm3839

03-08-09, 12:28 AM

Its an antenna up on top of Sears tower that any broadcaster can have access to. It's a broadband antenna meaning it's not channel specific so the gain isn't as good. Plus we're limited to power output.

very interesting...thanks for the info....i had no idea such a thing existed up there...

if ch 26 is using that transmit antenna now youre putting out a very good signal....i am only about 10 miles away but ch 26 is one of my best/strongest signals on a small attic antenna....even analog ch 26 comes in very well....as do analog 23 and 48...very strong with almost no ghosting even tho my attic antenna is pointed well away from downtown chicago to get get the more distant pbs digital channel 17 from indiana....

pm3839

03-08-09, 12:56 AM

Another newbie who is looking for a little help. I am located inthe chicago suburbs ( Elmhurst) and I am trying to pick up a station in northern Indiana - WYIN along with the Chicago stations. I have not purchased an antenna yet. I am considering a wingard 7015 or 7082. The antenna will be mounted off the chimney on a 5 ft mast so it should be about 25 ft up. Unfortunately, there is a 3 story building directly east of me that may cut down on reception. I tried a cheap Radioshack antenna inside my house and was able to get the downtown chicago staions easily. If I use one of these antennas, can I point it to the indiana station and still pull in the chicago stations? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

u never know until u actually try it but i bet theres a good chance u can get WYIN digital on ch 17....just point the antenna at WYIN instead of toward chicago....the chicago stations are probably so strong where u are that u'll never miss the lower signal levels....ignore any analog ghosting u may get from being off-axis like that....all (or most) of the analog will be gone by june 12th....

use your zip code or address at tvfool.com to see what the maps/signals look like for your location...if you're really lucky u may even be able to get some rockford stations off the back of an antenna....

25 feet up is a good height....but as for what antenna to use, the 2 u mentioned are standard vhf/uhf models...after june we wont need any low band vhf (which is ch 2 thru 6) so the winegard 7015 or 7082 are not the best choices...they are large and awkward/more easily damaged by bad weather, etc....after june 12th cbs will move to ch 12 and abc will move to ch 7....a 4 bay uhf bow tie may work well for u, even for those 2 high band vhf's and will be much smaller/easier to install/more weather survivable, etc....

if u have to buy an antenna i would wait until june to be sure it all works after the abc and cbs moves...maybe u can scrounge a used antenna until then? or experiment with a home made antenna or even rabbit ears in your attic? good luck!

Bink

03-08-09, 01:58 AM

Hi Gilbert,

I see you updated first page posts but I see in post #9, you listed WLS (53) for digitial instead of 52.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by WillieAntenna; Yesterday at 09:19 PM.. Reason: To correct spelling to make Blink happy.

Willie

:D

Bink *blinks*

sebenste

03-08-09, 03:39 AM

:D

Bink *blinks*

We can't have that now. :D Got it. Thanks!

bclbob

03-08-09, 12:11 PM

WBBM-DT still has the fast blur motion encoder problem. It was supposed to be fixed by the new equipment supporting the move to channel 12. Boy I hate Congresshaving caved to the procrastinators. Another March Madness with the fast blur :mad:

Elmpark

03-08-09, 12:39 PM

Thanks very much for the information! I will check out the possible use of a 4 bay antenna. :)

rec630

03-08-09, 11:21 PM

Is it just my equipment or are others noticing some of the stations still aren't sending out the correct time?

dattier

03-09-09, 01:24 AM

Most have the time right within a couple of minutes, but some are sending wrong DST info, so your tuner displays the CST time instead of the CDT time (that is, if your tuner is one that naïvely relies on PSIP for DST), making the clock appear one hour slow.

Generally, this mess occurs from about a month before the March or November change date to the end of February or October respectively, and then from the change date for a while thereafter. I believe that this winter WXFT-DT and WGBO-DT were sending "DST on" until the middle of January.

Some ATSC tuners ignore the PSIP stream's DST info and either let the user turn DST on and off or adhere immovably to the 2006-and-later rules. With those types of tuners you don't see variation from station to station.

tvropro

03-09-09, 08:13 AM

Most have the time right within a couple of minutes, but some are sending wrong DST info, so your tuner displays the CST time instead of the CDT time (that is, if your tuner is one that naïvely relies on PSIP for DST), making the clock appear one hour slow.

Generally, this mess occurs from about a month before the March or November change date to the end of February or October respectively, and then from the change date for a while thereafter.* I believe that this winter WXFT-DT and WGBO-DT were sending "DST on" until the middle of January.

Some ATSC tuners ignore the PSIP stream's DST info and either let the user turn DST on and off or adhere immovably to the 2006-and-later rules.* With those types of tuners you don't see variation from station to station.

Life was simpler when you turned the knob on a clock the set the time. :D You had to be a complete idiot to screw that up.

hvs10trk

03-09-09, 08:47 AM

Life was simpler when you turned the knob on a clock the set the time. :D You had to be a complete idiot to screw that up.

I sometimes wish it was that easy.

hvs10trk

03-09-09, 11:47 AM

Most have the time right within a couple of minutes, but some are sending wrong DST info, so your tuner displays the CST time instead of the CDT time (that is, if your tuner is one that naïvely relies on PSIP for DST), making the clock appear one hour slow.

Generally, this mess occurs from about a month before the March or November change date to the end of February or October respectively, and then from the change date for a while thereafter.* I believe that this winter WXFT-DT and WGBO-DT were sending "DST on" until the middle of January.

Some ATSC tuners ignore the PSIP stream's DST info and either let the user turn DST on and off or adhere immovably to the 2006-and-later rules.* With those types of tuners you don't see variation from station to station.

Ours are fixed as of 9am this morning.

WillieAntenna

03-09-09, 01:28 PM

Is it just my equipment or are others noticing some of the stations still aren't sending out the correct time?

I did see that :eek: :confused: but then I thought it was part of the bill that passed the analog date to June 12, 2009 that the DST was extened to June 12, 2009 also :rolleyes::p

Willie

dattier

03-09-09, 01:30 PM

Ours are fixed as of 9am this morning.Maybe is rather than are? On my Zinwell ZAT-970A, if I don't set the clock to manual, RF27's giving me DST but RF39 is giving me CST (and so are 21 and 43, but those aren't Weigel's responsibility). My Zenith DTT901 has the same results if I set DST to "Auto" except maybe on 39, since I can't receive WWME-LD reliably at its location.

rec630

03-09-09, 02:38 PM

Ours are fixed as of 9am this morning.

Yep, it is. Changed my DST setting back to "auto" and it seems like time on all the channels I get are correct now except for 38.x

ApoDoc

03-09-09, 04:31 PM

Should I replace my older 20 year old antenna. I am about 23 miles from downtown. I lost satellite a couple of times this winter and would like ATSC tuner back up?

Screeny

03-09-09, 05:01 PM

Hi,

I too am considering going the OTA route. I have a Hi Def TV and am wondering if an indoor antennae would work for HI Def broadcasts in the Lombard area. Can someone tell me if there is a reasonable amount of HD content accessible this way? If so, any suggestions on an indoor antennae that is a good value. Or am I wasting my time with an indoor solution? I do have an older antennae in my attic that was used with great success before cable. It would be difficult to get that fed back down to my HD tv location, and not sure if that would work for Hi def.

Thanks

Macfan424

03-09-09, 05:19 PM

Should I replace my older 20 year old antenna. I am about 23 miles from downtown. I lost satellite a couple of times this winter and would like ATSC tuner back up?There are far more knowledgeable people than me here who can give you a better answer, but FWIW, I'm using one that's nearly twice as old as yours, and it still works fine. It backs up my satellite reception, too, although I use it a primary source of local stations.

Screeny

03-09-09, 09:33 PM