I'll have to watch closely today in case it comes back for me. I had problems until February.

Watching The King of Queens and no studdering. Hooray!:)

There are non-HD TVs with ATSC tuners.* They are ready and do not need converter boxes.

There are HDTVs without ATSC tuners.* They are not ready unless the output of an ATSC tuner is fed into them.


That is true, I have one of each!
A new RCA and a 7 year old Mitsu rear projection.

How is the dumb general public going to figure this out if the people "in the know" don't even know?

I've never had any stuttering on the "26's" on 2 of 3 tuners. I still have it on the one that has always had it. None of the other channels have any stuttering at all. I'd say they still have something to fix.

I've never had any stuttering on the "26's" on 2 of 3 tuners. I still have it on the one that has always had it. None of the other channels have any stuttering at all. I'd say they still have something to fix.

Yeah there's still some bugs crawling around, but the major ones are fixed.

I've never had any stuttering on the "26's" on 2 of 3 tuners. I still have it on the one that has always had it. None of the other channels have any stuttering at all. I'd say they still have something to fix.


How about some info on which tuner is still showing studdering?

Or, maybe we should guess???

Yes, I sure couldn't help but notice that either myself last night. :eek:

(At least on the program I was watching - but it wasn't Bernie Mac or King of Queens, so we shall see if it holds up across the board and is for real. I will be watching carefully.)

Well, I'm sorry to say that I'm still seeing the stuttering here, as usual, on my Olevia TV. Watching Frasier right now and it's speeding up, slowing down, and freezing throughout the show. Audio is way out of sync too. Anyone else seeing this?

But Wait...The stuttering just disappeared when a screen crawl about the analog shutoff started.

Screen crawl is now gone and stuttering is back. Think you could just leave the crawl on permanently.

How is the dumb general public going to figure this out if the people "in the know" don't even know?

It's hopeless to get the stations to broadcast correct, non-misleading information.  Besides the example at hand, virtually every such spot or crawl talks in terms of stations’ "switching" or "changing" on June 12.  I can remember seeing only (not counting the half-hour how-to shows with the DIY crews) one spot that acknowledged that digital television is already here and that the viewer can receive it now.

How about some info on which tuner is still showing studdering?

Or, maybe we should guess???

Tivo HD OTA tuner--never any stuttering
HR20-700 OTA tuner--never any stuttering

Pioneer 5070HD tuner--constant stuttering

Well, I'm sorry to say that I'm still seeing the stuttering here, as usual, on my Olevia TV. Watching Frasier right now and it's speeding up, slowing down, and freezing throughout the show. Audio is way out of sync too. Anyone else seeing this?

But Wait...The stuttering just disappeared when a screen crawl about the analog shutoff started.

Screen crawl is now gone and stuttering is back. Think you could just leave the crawl on permanently.

I have a Samsung LCD and it was doing the studdering before. When they fixed things last week everything seemed to be OK with one exception, Frasier. That show was still studdering last night and the night before, but everything else like King of Queens and commercials appear to be fine.

I have a Samsung LCD and it was doing the studdering before. When they fixed things last week everything seemed to be OK with one exception, Frasier. That show was still studdering last night and the night before, but everything else like King of Queens and commercials appear to be fine.

Frasier has its own set of problems. :eek:

A crawl during "Wheel of Fortune" Monday evening said to rescan our digital tuners after 12:00 PM on June 12 because WLS's digital signal is moving from 52 to 7.* So I guess they'll be cutting over at noon CDT and shutting analog off perhaps a moment before.

The crawl also recommended making sure that one has an antenna good for both VHF and UHF.* Sadly it was spoiled by repeatedly using "HDTV" to mean any TV with an ATSC tuner.

So does this mean that after the re-scan, my TIVO should still record everything that is scheduled to record on 7.1? Or will I need to re-set those season passes? I seem to be having some issues with 23-1, in that I had to reprogram all of my season passes.

All's well on 26.1 WCIU. I am having no problem with Frasier or any other show anymore with Video Stuttering.
Occasionally I do get a really quick flash where the screen is completely green for a millisecond or so. I know I'm nittpicking but I wonder if anyone else has noticed this. This flashing does not happen often, maybe every 15 minutes or so and I had noticed it before the Vidoe Stuttering problem and now that that is fixed for me at least, I am noticing the green flashing again.
Only on 26.1

All's well on 26.1 WCIU. I am having no problem with Frasier or any other show anymore with Video Stuttering.
Occasionally I do get a really quick flash where the screen is completely green for a millisecond or so. I know I'm nittpicking but I wonder if anyone else has noticed this. This flashing does not happen often, maybe every 15 minutes or so and I had noticed it before the Vidoe Stuttering problem and now that that is fixed for me at least, I am noticing the green flashing again.
Only on 26.1
Yeah it's noticed. There's a problem with the show itself that causes our equipment to hiccup producing that blasted green flash.

Any information or prediction about what time tomorrow WYCC is cutting off analog?  If it's on their web site, I certainly can't find it.

Any information or prediction about what time tomorrow WYCC is cutting off analog?* If it's on their web site, I certainly can't find it.


http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101300537&formid=910&fac_num=12279

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101300537&formid=910&fac_num=12279

OK, thank you, then it's some time during the first six hours of the day.

How does one find those filings for other stations, so that we don't have to be posting the question here every time?

OK, thank you, then it's some time during the first six hours of the day.

How does one find those filings for other stations, so that we don't have to be posting the question here every time?

I went to Falcon_77's site (www.rabbitears.info ) and plugged in the call letters. I then picked the Technical Data section and clicked on "Correspondence" to go to the FCC's site.

I went to Falcon_77's site (www.rabbitears.info ) and plugged in the call letters. I then picked the Technical Data section and clicked on "Correspondence" to go to the FCC's site.

That would be my site. :D

Falcon manages the spreadsheet.

- Trip

Analog shutdown part 1, Chicago style...

WYCC-TV 20 signs off tomorrow morning, Thursday, April 16, at 6 AM, per their promos.

WWTO-TV 35 LaSalle/Ottawa, I think, signs off at 12:01 AM tonight. Not sure, but
it will be sometime on April 16th, between midnight to midnight. Leave it to a meteorologist to predict the signoff time. :D

I went to Falcon_77's [actually Trip in VA's] site (www.rabbitears.info ) and plugged in the call letters. I then picked the Technical Data section and clicked on "Correspondence" to go to the FCC's site.

That would be my site.And thank you both.

That would be my site. :D

Falcon manages the spreadsheet.

- Trip

Oops, sorry about that, Trip.

I like to give credit where it is due. Your combined effort is great!

WYCC-TV 20 signs off tomorrow morning, Thursday, April 16, at 6 AM, per their promos.

WWTO-TV 35 LaSalle/Ottawa, I think, signs off at 12:01 AM tonight. Not sure, but
it will be sometime on April 16th, between midnight to midnight. Leave it to a meteorologist to predict the signoff time. :D

Any updates on these two? I can't find anything about the transition on the WYCC website and as with most TBN stations, WWTO doesn't appear to have its own.

Thanks!

Any updates on these two?

Just before midnight CDT Wednesday, WYCC ran a spot that there were 01 days left until its transition.  Shortly after midnight, it ran another that they were cutting analog off at 6:00 AM and that you'd need "a digital television" (not "an HDTV" as WLS's crawl mistakenly says) or a converter box to continue receiving WYCC over the air.

Just before 6 AM, analog channel 20 was still carrying spots for programming later in the day that wouldn't be watchable that way (of course they also were running simultaneously with 20 on both 20.1 and 20.2).  At 6 AM channel 20 cut off unceremoniously with no announcement at all, while 20.2 continued right through with regular programming and no mention  of the analog cutoff.

That makes one class A station (WFBT) and one or two full-power stations (WYCC and maybe WWTO) in the Chicago DMA that were available analog and now are broadcast only digitally.  (WFBT is broadcast only as FBT, on a subchannel of WCIU-DT.  WCIU's analog termination filing says it will keep analog going to the bitter end of the evening on June 12 and then nightlight until June 26.)  So at last the changeover is coming to DMA #3.

[Of course, given my location east of WWTO's range and my complete lack of interest in TBN's fare, I have no information about WWTO.]

Looking through those applications via the links on Trip's site and thanks to ProjectSHO89's directions, I see a few odd things:

First, WLS's filing says it is terminating analog during the evening on June 12, but its crawl says it's terminating analog and moving digital from RF52 to RF7 at noon.  There's a conflict there.

Second, WISN's says it is terminating analog on VHF12 during the evening, but WBBM's says it is terminating analog on VHF2 during the afternoon.  A year ago an engineer at WBBM told me the plan was to switch the ATSC signal from 3 to 12 at the same time as their termination of analog on 2.  Seems that plan has had to change.  I guess WBBM will be on DT3 for a while after cutting off analog 2.

WFBT-CA became WMEU-CA in early 2008 I believe. The programming just shifted to the WCIU-DT subchannel which is why they dropped the W. The call letters WFBT now belong to a station in Bath, NY http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?facid=72623

WFBT-CA became WMEU-CA in early 2008 I believe.Yes, March 1, 2008.The programming just shifted to the WCIU-DT subchannelNot "shifted to" but "remained on"; it was already being carried on a WCIU-DT subchannel even when it was still on analog 48.... which is why they dropped the W.Right.  That's why I said that it's an example of programming that had been broadcast over-the-air in analog that is now available over-the-air only in digital.  The situation is not the same as an ongoing station that terminated its analog signal, but the result is similar.

Gilbert,

Way back in post #9 on the first page of this thread,

WYCC-TV/DT 20.1: Plans are to shut the analog station down on 6/12/09. The digital channel is completely built out and at full power on channel 21, so no changes there.

WWTO-DT 35.1: Plans are to shut the analog station down on 2/17/09. The digital channel, according to their Form 387 filing, is not at full power. Starting in February, they will move their digital broadcast antenna to the top of their tower, once the analog broadcast antenna is removed (within 90 days after the analog shutdown, according to the filing). They
have filed to go to 14.5 kw at roughly 1400' starting after 6/12/09. However, they have an application to go to 80 kw, which has not been decided on by the FCC.


Those two entries need updating, though I've no idea what the new information is for WWTO.

Gilbert,

Way back in post #9 on the first page of this thread,
(WYYC/WWTO)
Those two entries need updating, though I've no idea what the new information is for WWTO.

Thanks, Dattier. In the "yes we're shutting...oops, no we're not...oops, yes we are..." I failed to keep up on those two. WYCC is gone and WWTO is gone by midnight.

Looking through those applications via the links on Trip's site and thanks to ProjectSHO89's directions, I see a few odd things:

First, WLS's filing says it is terminating analog during the evening on June 12, but its crawl says it's terminating analog and moving digital from RF52 to RF7 at noon.* There's a conflict there.

Second, WISN's says it is terminating analog on VHF12 during the evening, but WBBM's says it is terminating analog on VHF2 during the afternoon.* A year ago an engineer at WBBM told me the plan was to switch the ATSC signal from 3 to 12 at the same time as their termination of analog on 2.* Seems that plan has had to change.* I guess WBBM will be on DT3 for a while after cutting off analog 2.

WLS: Nope, not at all. They cut analog off art noon, and a few moments later, they go to RF 7. Separate transmitters, ready to go. They're "moving", but between two different transmitters.

WBBM...here's the deal: WBBM goes off noon-6 PM. WISN goes off 6PM-midnight. If they both choose 6 PM, they're good. :D (The sign off windows the FCC gives to stations is 6 hours, starting at midnight, and then to 6 AM, then 6 AM to noon, etc.)

WBBM...here's the deal: WBBM goes off noon-6 PM. WISN goes off 6PM-midnight. If they both choose 6 PM, they're good. :D (The sign off windows the FCC gives to stations is 6 hours, starting at midnight, and then to 6 AM, then 6 AM to noon, etc.)Nothing like stations coordinating their efforts. :)

Chances are WISN will go off at 11:59pm and WBBM will punt.

WLS's filing says it is terminating analog during the evening on June 12, but its crawl says it's terminating analog and moving digital from RF52 to RF7 at noon. There's a conflict there.

Nope, not at all. They cut analog off at noon, and a few moments later, they go to RF 7.You don't see that as a conflict with filing that they'll keep analog going until evening?  Unless perhaps they intend to run analog on channel 52 from noon until at least 6:00 PM ...

All that aside, thanks for updating post #9.

WBBM...here's the deal: WBBM goes off noon-6 PM. WISN goes off 6PM-midnight. If they both choose 6 PM, they're good.Technically, if WBBM cuts off analog at 5:59 and WISN at 6:00, they're both complying with their filings and WBBM-DT has to linger on RF3 (or be off the air) for only one minute after the cutoff of analog 2 before switching to RF12.  However, I would be greatly surprised if it came to pass that way.

Chances are WISN will go off at 11:59pm and WBBM will punt.Agreed.

Tonight, I noticed that two of the wireless mic receivers we use at our church were picking up a strong transmission of white noise on 718 MHz (channel 55). This was WPXE (ION network) in Kenosha, but I think they have now signed off. Anyway, this noise has never occured before. Does anyone know if something (maybe Qualcomm??) just started transmitting on that frequency in the past few days? We are up in Libertyville.

Tonight, I noticed that two of the wireless mic receivers we use at our church were picking up a strong transmission of white noise on 718 MHz (channel 55). This was WPXE (ION network) in Kenosha, but I think they have now signed off. Anyway, this noise has never occured before. Does anyone know if something (maybe Qualcomm??) just started transmitting on that frequency in the past few days?I suppose it's possible.

You could try asking in this forum: http://www.radioreference.com/forums/illinois-radio-discussion-forum/

I will say that the tropo's been really strong all day since early AM. I was receiving and watching WPXE-DT here in Crystal Lake this morning in my bedroom with an indoor antenna. And that's unusual - especially since the UHF element's pointing towards Chicago. I was also getting in all the other Milwaukee channels.

I was even getting in WYIN-DT when I checked a couple of hours ago with my unamped, outdoor antenna.

Channel 55 is owned nationwide by Qualcomm for their MediaFLO service.

- Trip

Tonight, I noticed that two of the wireless mic receivers we use at our church were picking up a strong transmission of white noise on 718 MHz (channel 55). This was WPXE (ION network) in Kenosha, but I think they have now signed off. Anyway, this noise has never occured before. Does anyone know if something (maybe Qualcomm??) just started transmitting on that frequency in the past few days? We are up in Libertyville.

Yep, definitely Qualcomm's service, as Trip stated.

I suppose it's possible.

You could try asking in this forum: http://www.radioreference.com/forums/illinois-radio-discussion-forum/

I will say that the tropo's been really strong all day since early AM. I was receiving and watching WPXE-DT here in Crystal Lake this morning in my bedroom with an indoor antenna. And that's unusual - especially since the UHF element's pointing towards Chicago. I was also getting in all the other Milwaukee channels.

I was even getting in WYIN-DT when I checked a couple of hours ago with my unamped, outdoor antenna.

Tropo was decent for the first time this year. Easily locked WSBT-DT 22, physically on 22 from South Bend. Now that WYCC-TV has left the air, I get an intermittent signal---without tropo enhancement---of WHA-DT in Madison on 20 here in DeKalb. If my ChannelMaster 4228 was outside, I bet I could lock it pretty much continuously, with their 100 kw-ish. When WCIU-TV 26 signs off, WKOW-DT should come pounding in on rf 26, especially as it zooms to 1 million watts after analog shutdown.

When WCIU-TV 26 signs off, 1 million watt WKOW-DT should come pounding in on rf 26.

Did they implement that power increase yet?

- Trip

Did they implement that power increase yet?

- Trip

Trip,

Sorry, let me clarify: not yet, but they will once 26 signs off. They're just standing by for analog shutdown.

And for those who screamed that DX'ing digital signals was going to be difficult to near impossible...judging from what I saw last night (and of course Ramm and many others here have seen it too)...just you wait until the analogs are gone.

Speaking of which, WWTO-TV 35 signed off just before midnight. And analog 35, PBS from Grand Rapids, came in, with a hint of a 35 analog from Kentucky coming in as well!

Speaking of which, WWTO-TV 35 signed off just before midnight.Small tweak needed to post #9, then (maybe not worth bothering with, now that it's in the past), where you said WWTO shut analog down "early on 4/16/09."

I've a hunch that most of the analog cutoffs will take place at a multiple of six hours into the day.

WLS has been hyping another such test, scheduled for 10:23 PM CDT on Saturday, April 18.

This time we know WYCC won't be participating.

Channel 55 is owned nationwide by Qualcomm for their MediaFLO service.- TripYeah, I was thinking that Qualcomm might not be a regional public service agency, because I actually tried looking it up and couldn't find it under Lake County. It does have that kind of ring to it, though. Or at least a wireless phone company or something. Oh, well.

WLS has been hyping another such test, scheduled for 10:23 PM CDT on Saturday, April 18.Everytime I see that mentioned, I always think, "what if a person's TV has a digital tuner, only they're not even really aware of it, but they're watching the analog channel?". ;)

Those "tests" just crack me up. :D

Everytime I see that mentioned, I always think, "what if a person's TV has a digital tuner, but they're watching the analog channel?".They get told, "Your TV has failed," of course.

If the display read, "You have tuned to our analog broadcast" instead, that would make more sense, but we would be asking too much to hope for that.  It would be like finding the stations acknowledging that DTV is already available and that what's happening June 12 is neither a "transition" nor a "switch."

no one else has mentioned this so ...

i only noticed this this morning on the 11 am news for wls 7.1 that it was not closed captioned as it normallly would be ... so i go to 7.2 on the dtt-901 and yup both the
analog and digital captioning are there as normal .... but wait something looks different

pushing the "select" button, the one in the middle of the arrow buttons, puts the
'channel banner display' for 7.2 as " livwell" not the wls-dt
also i had to go back to the menu and reconfigure the channel to be cropped
(the only way i get the full screen)

some new network on the subchannel 7.2 ?

kd9fz
comments, criticisms and questions of sanity are always welcome

ABC notified a cable company in Connecticut about killing off 7-2 on WABC-DT in favor of a "Livewell" channel.

- Trip

Small tweak needed to post #9, then (maybe not worth bothering with, now that it's in the past), where you said WWTO shut analog down "early on 4/16/09."

I've a hunch that most of the analog cutoffs will take place at a multiple of six hours into the day.

When I meant "early", I meant early as in before June 12. But, since we've had multiple shutoffs...yee gads. Good call...will edit shortly.

ABC notified a cable company in Connecticut about killing off 7-2 on WABC-DT in favor of a "Livewell" channel.

- Trip

I saw that this morning. It's a natural medicine and food channel.

Doesn't sound appetizing to me. ;) :D

They get told, "Your TV has failed," of course.

If the display read, "You have tuned to our analog broadcast" instead, that would make more sense, but we would be asking too much to hope for that.* It would be like finding the stations acknowledging that DTV is already available and that what's happening June 12 is neither a "transition" nor a "switch."

Ramm and Dattier,

I wonder how many ATSC-equipped TV's have been thrown into the trash because of this?

You know, between my post just above, correcting for the confusion of the shut-off date...and this...if I'm a geek and get confused every now and then :D, the public really has to be messed up...

Everytime I see that mentioned, I always think, "what if a person's TV has a digital tuner, only they're not even really aware of it, but they're watching the analog channel?". ;)

Those "tests" just crack me up. :D

I've already seen that happen. They mentioned they had a new TV but still saw the alert so I came by and did a digital scan for them.

WEDE-CA has indeed got permission from the FCC to flash-cut to digital on channel 34, using 4.2 kilowatts. No idea when it will happen, though.

WEDE-CA has indeed got permission from the FCC to flash-cut to digital on channel 34, using 4.2 kilowatts. No idea when it will happen, though.Wouldn't it be funny if WJYS started replicating RF36's 62.2 on 34.1 and then WEDE were to duplicate it on 34.2 from RF34 after the flash cut ...

WLS 7-1 and 7-2 both in 720P?

Is anyone else seeing this? WLS-DT 7-1 (ABC) and 7-2 (CRTV) are both showing 720P on all of my tuners. 7-3 remains 480I. This could be interesting.

7.2's showing up in HD on Comcast too btw.

Noticed this too. I did not know this was technologically feasible yet, but they seem to be pulling it off.

Wouldn't it be funny if WJYS started replicating RF36's 62.2 on 34.1 and then WEDE were to duplicate it on 34.2 from RF34 after the flash cut ...

I wouldn't be surprised if they feed an identical feed--WJYS on 34-1 and WEDE on 34-2. It would probably be cheaper for them to do it that way.

- Trip

WLS 7-1 and 7-2 both in 720P?

Is anyone else seeing this? WLS-DT 7-1 (ABC) and 7-2 (CRTV) are both showing 720P on all of my tuners. 7-3 remains 480I. This could be interesting.

UGH!

Noticed this too. I did not know this was technologically feasible yet, but they seem to be pulling it off.

There's never been anything limiting it other than the fact that the PQ suffers when you do it. Technically, you could add 98 1080i subchannels, just that nobody would be able to watch any them...

I've heard mixed reviews on this technology. I would like to know what the opinions on the PQ are in this thread.

Personally, I think the reviews will be overwhelmingly negative, and with good reason. I would call my local stations screaming if any of them started doing such things.

- Trip

7.2's label is now Livwell.  On another AVSForum thread I read that ABC was p.o.'ed at stations who were relabeling their local affairs subchannel that way, but here it's happening with an O&O.

Oh crap. Upon viewing the larger screen, I am noticing pixelization on 7.1 for the first time. 7.2 is even worse. If they are to have a main with suitable quality for an o&o, they will need to shut off the HD on the sub.

7.2's label is now Livwell.* On another AVSForum thread I read that ABC was p.o.'ed at stations who were relabeling their local affairs subchannel that way, but here it's happening with an O&O.

They've got news on now at 12:20 AM. WOW. Well, I can't wait for Ramm to see this. Give him plenty of room folks...this is gonna be one fireworks show that even his beloved Comisk...er, the Cell couldn't hope to duplicate! :eek::D

Rockford's WTVO-TV 17's analog 60 day "nightlight" service is done. At 12:01 AM, they unceremoniously hit the "off" button, and their power bill went down by 2/3rds. :D All Rockford stations are completely off analog.

Interesting: now that they have done that, I am locking WYIN-DT (broadcasting on 17) with a 55% signal, even with my ChannelMaster 4228 pointing due east, or about 30-40 degrees off. There's some tropo going on, but not extraordinary. I see 56-1 and 56-2...I thought 56-2 was Create. Hmmm.

They've got news on now at 12:20 AM. WOW. Well, I can't wait for Ramm to see this. Give him plenty of room folks...this is gonna be one fireworks show that even his beloved Comisk...er, the Cell couldn't hope to duplicate! :eek::DAHA! So that explains why Jimmy Kimmel looks so lousy since it started in HD earlier in the week! The faces are all fuzzy and full of mosquito noise.

Rockford's I see 56-1 and 56-2...I thought 56-2 was Create. Hmmm.

WYIN 56-2 did used to be Create. For the last couple of months though, it's just been a simulcast of 56-1.

WYIN 56-2 did used to be Create. For the last couple of months though, it's just been a simulcast of 56-1.

Perhaps WTTW didn't like the duplication of programming and made them remove it. I don't think anyone in the Chicago market carries PBS World though, perhaps WYIN should look into it.

- Trip

WLS is not handling 7.2 well at all.  I was watching 7.2's repeat in the wee hours of Sunday of Saturday night's 10 PM local news, and it was in 4:3 and, by my eyeballing guess, SD.  So here was content produced in 720p 16:9, downconverted to 480i and cropped to 4:3 for a channel that used to be SD, upconverted to 720p and pillarboxed because that channel is now HD, and if viewed on an SDTV or with a CECB downconverted again to 480i by the receiver.

If they're going to send a 720p signal, they should make use of it.

I don't think anyone in the Chicago market carries PBS World though, perhaps WYIN should look into it.It's on 36.3 out of Milwaukee, which is actually closer to me and much easier to get - though I can't say it's 100%, 24/7 reliable for me, personally, here in the SE corner of McH. Co.

I'd imagine that a lot of the people in the northern half of Lake County, or even the NE McHenry County area, don't have too much trouble receiving it at all.

seems strange I know... I just bought a Terk HDTVa antenna for my Olevia 537H (actually just posted a whole long thread about my situation in the Olevia 537H thread), and I can't pull in a single OTA HD channel.

I live 2 blocks from the California blue line in a coach house, surrounded by 4 story apt buildings on the southern side, really the only side of my house that's open is the west side, but.... NONE? seems really odd, reason I posted in the Olevia thread is I think it's an issue with the TV.

Anyways, any Logan Square residents out there with advice or feedback?

cheers,
Ben

seems strange I know... I just bought a Terk HDTVa antenna for my Olevia 537H (actually just posted a whole long thread about my situation in the Olevia 537H thread), and I can't pull in a single OTA HD channel.

I live 2 blocks from the California blue line in a coach house, surrounded by 4 story apt buildings on the southern side, really the only side of my house that's open is the west side, but.... NONE? seems really odd, reason I posted in the Olevia thread is I think it's an issue with the TV.

Anyways, any Logan Square residents out there with advice or feedback?

cheers,
Ben

Do you have the B11 or B12 Olevia 537? I have had both versions and my B12 definitely has a stronger tuner. My location is 39 miles out, so it's a completely different situation than Logan Square, but the Olevia easily beats my other tuners at locking stations. I would agree that getting no stations seems unlikely so I would suspect the TV. Perhaps you could try testing with a DTV converter box?


EDIT: OK, I just read your post in the Olevia forum. Not being able to start a channel scan means you either have a hardware problem or corrupted firmware. I would try flashing the firmware. If that doesn't work, you can always add an external OTA tuner. In order to view a DTV channel on this TV it must first be added through a scan. You can't just key in 7-1 and expect to get anything unless the channel was first memorized in a full scan. There is no other way to add a channel. That's probably my chief complaint about this otherwise excellent TV. I'll be monitoring the Olevia thread to see how things work out.

WLS 7-1 and 7-2 both in 720P?

Is anyone else seeing this? WLS-DT 7-1 (ABC) and 7-2 (CRTV) are both showing 720P on all of my tuners. 7-3 remains 480I. This could be interesting.

Mine's showing it also. They gotta be bitstarving 7.2, noticed a lot of macroblocking just now when I checked. HD lite has now emerged on OTA. :(

Soon we will see nothing but macroblocking and mosquito noise on all the HD channels. It's never been about quality it's about how much commercial time you can sell. :mad:

It's on 36.3 out of Milwaukee, which is actually closer to me and much easier to get - though I can't say it's 100%, 24/7 reliable for me, personally, here in the SE corner of McH. Co.

I'd imagine that a lot of the people in the northern half of Lake County, or even the NE McHenry County area, don't have too much trouble receiving it at all.

No trouble receiving WMVT 36-3 Northbrook (NE Crook Co.) either. It has the best signal of all Milwaukee stations. WDJT (CBS) being second. I emailed WTTW about this some time ago suggesting they carry the channel but they just blew me off saying "no thanks" in essence. I guess they think that Create or V-ME... or perhaps the 11-2 SD duplicate of the HD 11-1 was better use of the bandwidth, though I highly disagree. WYIN and WYCC said WTTW had the rights for it and they could not carry it.

I wouldn't be surprised if they feed an identical feed--WJYS on 34-1 and WEDE on 34-2. It would probably be cheaper for them to do it that way.

- Trip

Completely unnecessary though. WJYS will have stellar coverage after June 12. WEDE should just go away, really. It interferes with WISN-DT and it's programming is already carried on WJYS 62-2.

Current WJYS DT coverage:http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT608549.html

June 12 WJYS-DT coverage: http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT1249097.html

... They gotta be bitstarving 7.2, noticed a lot of macroblocking just now when I checked. HD lite has now emerged on OTA. :(
This morning the video streams for 7.1, 7.2 and 7.3 were running at about 9.6, 5.7 and 1.6 Mbps. When I looked yesterday, it was about 10.3, 5.0 and 1.6.

Completely unnecessary though. WJYS will have stellar coverage after June 12. WEDE should just go away, really. It interferes with WISN-DT and it's programming is already carried on WJYS 62-2.

Not saying it makes sense, just saying that it would make more sense than flipping the subchannels.

- Trip

This morning the video streams for 7.1, 7.2 and 7.3 were running at about 9.6, 5.7 and 1.6 Mbps. When I looked yesterday, it was about 10.3, 5.0 and 1.6.

They're running at Variable bit rate so they're going to keep changing.

They're running at Variable bit rate so they're going to keep changing.

Dont you need at least 9 mbps to get quality HD ?

I'm looking for recommendations for changing my antenna setup for the June switchover, so I can pick up ABC when it moves back down to channel 7 and WTTW when it moves to 12.

My current setup is in my attic in Winnetka, 14.7/15.8 miles from the Hancock and Sears. I have an Antennas Direct D4 VHF-lo and an Antennas Direct DB4 UHF antenna that feed into a Channel Master 7777. The amp output is split, with one leg going into a MyHD MDP-130 in my computer, and the other going to the basement, where it is patched back upstairs to the TV.

My digital reception has been very good, but in checking today I noticed that analog 7 is nothing but noise ... which makes sense given that the D4 claims to target channels 2-6. Analog 9 and 11 are a bit snowy, but watchable, so I'm guessing that digital 12 should be OK.

I'm assuming that the D4 needs to be replaced with something that can cover the upper VHF.

Do I need to be concerned that replacing the D4 with VHF/UHF antenna will cause some kind of interference with the UHF signal being received by the DB4? Will the CM7777 prevent that?

Any recommendations on antennas to replace the D4 would be welcomed.

Thanks,
Howard

My current setup is in my attic in Winnetka, 14.7/15.8 miles from the Hancock and Sears. I have an Antennas Direct D4 VHF-lo and an Antennas Direct DB4 UHF antenna that feed into a Channel Master 7777. The amp output is split, with one leg going into a MyHD MDP-130 in my computer, and the other going to the basement, where it is patched back upstairs to the TV.

My digital reception has been very good, but in checking today I noticed that analog 7 is nothing but noise ... which makes sense given that the D4 claims to target channels 2-6. Analog 9 and 11 are a bit snowy, but watchable, so I'm guessing that digital 12 should be OK.

I'm assuming that the D4 needs to be replaced with something that can cover the upper VHF.

Do I need to be concerned that replacing the D4 with VHF/UHF antenna will cause some kind of interference with the UHF signal being received by the DB4? Will the CM7777 prevent that?

Any recommendations on antennas to replace the D4 would be welcomed.

Thanks,
Howard


Howard, I see an issue with your setup if I am understanding it correctly. Just because an antenna claims to have performance in one band, doesn't mean it doesn't have some performance in another. In this case, the lo-VHF may work in both hi-VHF and UHF, albeit poorly. The problem is that the signal gets added distructively (out of phase) from each antenna when you have such a setup without some sort of filter on each antenna lead. You really don't want the same signal mixing from 2 antennas. You should have no trouble getting WLS/WGN/WTTW analog from that location. To me, this indicates you have a problem with your antenna combining idea. All the amplification in the world won't help you in this case.

The way I see it you have 2 choices:
1) Do you have enough room for a channel master 3016? Seen here: http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=ANC3016
You're close enough and that antenna is VHF and UHF.
-or-
2) get a UHF and VHF filter and then combine your UHF DB4 with a seperate VHF antenna before going into the amp. such as this one: http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=UVSJ

#1 seems like the cheaper and simpler route to me.

WLS-TV, ABC 7 runs the deplorable practices of bit starving their "HD" channel by first adding subchannels of content that no one watches, and now, they've sucked more bandwidth out of the main channel by making 7.2 720p! And I am sure they will claim it's not noticeable, or at least not noticeable to their 'test' audience, when in fact we all know what a farce that is. Watch Dancing With the Stars to see the wonders of high compression: loss of detail, MPEG compression artifacts around objects, and that wonderful 160x160 resolution you get whenever there is a lot of video motion.

Why watch at all? Are you listening WLS? I stopped watching WTTW because of the subchanneling to pixel-hell, WMAQ-TV NBC most of the time, and now you are about to lose me again. WBBM-TV, CBS Channel 2, is the stalwart, and it shows. I watch shows like CSI and The Mentalist, among others, because the picture quality is so fantastic. I can't watch shows in amazement on ABC and NBC because of your local affiliates' horrible compression.

Dont you need at least 9 mbps to get quality HD ?

There's nothing in the ATSC standard that I am aware of that defines bitrate for HD, only resolution. Depending on the encoders a station is using, you can get a very good picture with lower bitrates. It also depends on what video you have as well. Sports at 6mbps would be beyond a joke, but if its a sitcom with very little fast movement, that could be more promising.

I'm looking for recommendations for changing my antenna setup for the June switchover, so I can pick up ABC when it moves back down to channel 7 and WTTW when it moves to 12.WTTW is staying on 47.  WBBM is moving to 12.

Anybody also notice that since 7.2 has been 720p, it's not as sharp as it was when it was it was 480i? :rolleyes::mad:

Dattier, thanks for the correction.

Howard, I see an issue with your setup if I am understanding it correctly. Just because an antenna claims to have performance in one band, doesn't mean it doesn't have some performance in another. In this case, the lo-VHF may work in both hi-VHF and UHF, albeit poorly. The problem is that the signal gets added distructively (out of phase) from each antenna when you have such a setup without some sort of filter on each antenna lead. You really don't want the same signal mixing from 2 antennas. You should have no trouble getting WLS/WGN/WTTW analog from that location. To me, this indicates you have a problem with your antenna combining idea. All the amplification in the world won't help you in this case.

The way I see it you have 2 choices:
1) Do you have enough room for a channel master 3016? Seen here: http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=ANC3016
You're close enough and that antenna is VHF and UHF.
-or-
2) get a UHF and VHF filter and then combine your UHF DB4 with a seperate VHF antenna before going into the amp. such as this one: http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=UVSJ

#1 seems like the cheaper and simpler route to me.

The Channel Master 3016 is a little bit longer and a little bit narrower than my Antennas Direct V4, so it's likely to fit.

On the antenna combiner: the CM 7777 amp has two inputs (VHF, and combined) and switch to select separate or combined inputs. I can't find an explicit statement on the product Web page, but I would hope that Channel Master would include the appropriate filtering to support separate UHF and VHF.

Thanks for the advice. It looks like I'll need to visit Fry's on my next trip to the western suburbs.

The Fry's in DG rarely ever has any of the good CM stuff in stock. They *may* have a couple of different antennas sitting around, but it's highly unlikely that they'll have any decent pre-amps - CM or otherwise. I don't think I've ever seen those there.

In fact, their entire off-air reception aisle is very scantily stocked these days and never has much of anything you'd really want. Just mostly very picked-thru, 'off-brand' junk, even as far as the hardware.

You can look if you happen to be swinging by anyway, but you're probably better off just ordering that stuff online.

The Fry's in DG rarely ever has any of the good CM stuff in stock. They *may* have a couple of different antennas sitting around, but it's highly unlikely that they'll have any decent pre-amps - CM or otherwise. I don't think I've ever seen those there.

In fact, their entire off-air reception aisle is very scantily stocked these days and never has much of anything you'd really want. Just mostly very picked-thru, 'off-brand' junk, even as far as the hardware. .

That was my thoughts as well. It was one of the places that I went when looking for an antenna, but at the time they only had on outdoor model. Some Phillips for $100. More than I was interested in.

I just wound up getting a something from Amazon. With the free shipping, I spent less than $50, and am getting great reception (sans WBBM of course).

Tonight, I noticed that two of the wireless mic receivers we use at our church were picking up a strong transmission of white noise on 718 MHz (channel 55). This was WPXE (ION network) in Kenosha, but I think they have now signed off. Anyway, this noise has never occured before. Does anyone know if something (maybe Qualcomm??) just started transmitting on that frequency in the past few days? We are up in Libertyville.

Those wireless mics that operate in the 700 MHz range will be illegal to operate come June 12. Shure has good info on their website. And all the manufacturers are offering rebates if you trade your existing wireless in for a newer version.

Also, please join the church tech discussion at either of these sites:

http://churchsoundcheck.com
http://churchmedia.net


Tim Gibson
Tech Director at EV Free in Crystal Lake, IL

WLS is not handling 7.2 well at all.* I was watching 7.2's repeat in the wee hours of Sunday of Saturday night's 10 PM local news, and it was in 4:3 and, by my eyeballing guess, SD.* So here was content produced in 720p 16:9, downconverted to 480i and cropped to 4:3 for a channel that used to be SD, upconverted to 720p and pillarboxed because that channel is now HD, and if viewed on an SDTV or with a CECB downconverted again to 480i by the receiver.

If they're going to send a 720p signal, they should make use of it.

Why not use widescreen 480p for 7.2? Save more bits for 7.1 and probably provide a better 7.2 at the same time.

Dan (Woj...)

Just saw 7-1 and 7-2 last night and I'll agree that it looks like SH*T. 7-2's severe macroblocking and 7-1's lack of depth is discouraging. What's wrong with 7-2 in 480i and just increasing the bit rate some? Is 720p really necessary? Seems like overkill at the expense of 7-1

The Fry's in DG rarely ever has any of the good CM stuff in stock. They *may* have a couple of different antennas sitting around, but it's highly unlikely that they'll have any decent pre-amps - CM or otherwise. I don't think I've ever seen those there.

In fact, their entire off-air reception aisle is very scantily stocked these days and never has much of anything you'd really want. Just mostly very picked-thru, 'off-brand' junk, even as far as the hardware.

You can look if you happen to be swinging by anyway, but you're probably better off just ordering that stuff online.

solid signal.com has fair prices, good customer service, no Crook Co. taxes, and quick delivery if you wondered.

I'm looking for recommendations for changing my antenna setup for the June switchover, so I can pick up ABC when it moves back down to channel 7 and WTTW when it moves to 12.

My current setup is in my attic in Winnetka, 14.7/15.8 miles from the Hancock and Sears. I have an Antennas Direct D4 VHF-lo and an Antennas Direct DB4 UHF antenna that feed into a Channel Master 7777. The amp output is split, with one leg going into a MyHD MDP-130 in my computer, and the other going to the basement, where it is patched back upstairs to the TV.

My digital reception has been very good, but in checking today I noticed that analog 7 is nothing but noise ... which makes sense given that the D4 claims to target channels 2-6. Analog 9 and 11 are a bit snowy, but watchable, so I'm guessing that digital 12 should be OK.

Have you tried just looking at the output from your DB-4? I'm running a DB-2 over in Skokie, and during WLS's tests on 7 in December I was more than able to pull it in satisfactorily, and I'm running completely unamplified!

You're just a stone's throw more north than I am, but also a lot closer to the lake; I can't imagine the signal is dramatically different between your location and mine.

There is one difference, however, which is that my DB-2 is externally mounted while yours is in the attic. That could cause a big difference right there.

There's nothing in the ATSC standard that I am aware of that defines bitrate for HD, only resolution. Depending on the encoders a station is using, you can get a very good picture with lower bitrates. It also depends on what video you have as well. Sports at 6mbps would be beyond a joke, but if its a sitcom with very little fast movement, that could be more promising.

Talking heads don't need any bandwidth :D

solid signal.com has fair prices, good customer service, no Crook Co. taxes, and quick delivery if you wondered.Speaking of Crook Co., I hear "The Nepotism Prince" is thinking of rolling back the sales tax a bit right before the next election, which he just happens to be running in.

The s*** never ends there, does it? :rolleyes:

Have you tried just looking at the output from your DB-4? I'm running a DB-2 over in Skokie, and during WLS's tests on 7 in December I was more than able to pull it in satisfactorily, and I'm running completely unamplified!

You're just a stone's throw more north than I am, but also a lot closer to the lake; I can't imagine the signal is dramatically different between your location and mine.

There is one difference, however, which is that my DB-2 is externally mounted while yours is in the attic. That could cause a big difference right there.

I haven't tried reception on analog 7 with just the DB4. I'll give that a whirl before I order anything else. Thanks for the idea.

I'm certain you're right about signal loss in the attic. I had to try a few different locations in there before finding one that works well. I actually started with a DB2, and had to upgrade to the DB4 to get enough signal.

I went with the attic install to avoid the hassles of a roof mount, grounding wires, etc.. The only time I've been tempted to put an antenna on the roof was when I looked at the programming schedule for the PBS 1080i station in Milwaukee ... but complaining about WTTW would be hijacking my own thread. :)

Those wireless mics that operate in the 700 MHz range will be illegal to operate come June 12. Shure has good info on their website. And all the manufacturers are offering rebates if you trade your existing wireless in for a newer version.

Also, please join the church tech discussion at either of these sites:

http://churchsoundcheck.com
http://churchmedia.net


Tim Gibson
Tech Director at EV Free in Crystal Lake, IL

Thanks for the info. We are looking into having the mics rebanded. Otherwise, we'll have to go the new route. Where are the government coupons for these things? ;)

Speaking of Crook Co., I hear "The Nepotism Prince" is thinking of rolling back the sales tax a bit right before the next election, which he just happens to be running in.

The s*** never ends there, does it? :rolleyes:

Ya a whole .25%, Dont do us any favors. That criminal in office should be the next one to go down like the ex gov. :mad:

Thanks for the info. We are looking into having the mics rebanded. Otherwise, we'll have to go the new route. Where are the government coupons for these things? ;)

How about some government relief? As a semi-pro musician, I have over a grand invested in two clip-on wireless systems. My good one is on UHF 69 (no hope there, the feds are using it), and my back-up is on VHF 12 (oops - here comes WBBM). I'm thinking about having them hard wired, since the manufacturers are telling me it is cheaper to buy a new one than to have it re-banded.

I was watching ABC 7.2 last night and the compression was such that it looked like a badly mastered DVD from 1998. 720p for this channel is completely ridiculous.

The Sox look good on the U tonight, keep up the good work!

How about some government relief? As a semi-pro musician, I have over a grand invested in two clip-on wireless systems. My good one is on UHF 69 (no hope there, the feds are using it), and my back-up is on VHF 12 (oops - here comes WBBM). I'm thinking about having them hard wired, since the manufacturers are telling me it is cheaper to buy a new one than to have it re-banded.

Yes, it's almost criminal what the FCC has done to wireless mic users. We've spent thousands to buy our mics, and then the FCC eliminates an entire block of spectrum (700 MHz) being used by many of these systems. But wait, there's more. Last October, the FCC approved the use of white spaces in the DTV band for a new crop of handheld devices. So, anyone in the audience with one of these devices has the potential to walk on your wireless mic signal. There are a bunch of really unhappy people about this. Seems like the FCC caved to political pressure from the device manufacturers and rushed to approve the white space devices instead of implementing a well thought out technical policy benefiting all users. Are we surprised? There is a letter to the former FCC commissioner here (http://www.churchsoundcheck.com/Dr-Hunt_letter-to-FCC.pdf) about this. It's a great read.

Looks like WBBM CBS2 is also in the process of doing Real HD from the field reports.. Expected to be ready during sometime this summer..
they currently have been doing 16x9 SD from the Field

Coming soon to WLS-DT 7-2, the same 5 shows over and over again. :(

http://livewellhd.com/feature?id=6758734

- Trip

Yes, it's almost criminal what the FCC has done to wireless mic users. We've spent thousands to buy our mics, and then the FCC eliminates an entire block of spectrum (700 MHz) being used by many of these systems. But wait, there's more. Last October, the FCC approved the use of white spaces in the DTV band for a new crop of handheld devices. So, anyone in the audience with one of these devices has the potential to walk on your wireless mic signal. There are a bunch of really unhappy people about this. Seems like the FCC caved to political pressure from the device manufacturers and rushed to approve the white space devices instead of implementing a well thought out technical policy benefiting all users. Are we surprised? There is a letter to the former FCC commissioner here (http://www.churchsoundcheck.com/Dr-Hunt_letter-to-FCC.pdf) about this. It's a great read.


don't be surprised. obama had connections with clearwire, (700 MHz wireless broadband) and pushed the delay of the DTV conversion back 4 months because their stock was in the toilet and they needed capital before the spectrum was freed up. It has DOUBLED in value since the annoucement of the DTV delay, go to yahoo finance and look it up. This whole band was politically hashsed from both sides. And yes, Martin was politically motivated too.

Coming soon to WLS-DT 7-2, the same 5 shows over and over again. :(

http://livewellhd.com/feature?id=6758734

- Trip

and you thought reruns of 190 North were bad...

Jeez. I'd rather see reruns of jeopardy since they have it at 3:30 when everyone is at work.

Coming soon to WLS-DT 7-2, the same 5 shows over and over again. :(

http://livewellhd.com/feature?id=6758734

- Trip

What the hell is this crap.. I would of rather had the .2 network in HD if they are going to bitstarve the channels.

Coming soon to WLS-DT 7-2, the same 5 shows over and over again.I count six.

The next question is, how often is the same episode of each one rerun?

I count six.

The point still stands. :p

- Trip

I saw macroblocking on 7.1 lately. That 7.2 at 720p is really screwing things up. Its getting to a point that my 480i SD I get from my 4DTV C band satellite receiver looks as good as most of the HD lite that is now showing up OTA. The funny thing is thats only 480i. Keep it up broadcasters soon OTA HD quality will be a thing of the past just like with the small dish systems and cable. Time to get some equipment to get the original HD feeds off C band I guess.

So what's the story on WOCH-LP?

Are they going bye-bye, or are they just not listed because there's no official word yet?

Looks like they're going to LD on RF49, right?
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=WOCH&city=&state=

I thought the large part of the Korean community was on the North side. Why is their antenna pointed SW? Do the engineers not know who their target audience is?

I thought the large part of the Korean community was on the North side.It is. Beats me. Although I know that not just Koreans watch that channel (by a long shot, actually).

I really wish they'd swing the signal out this way more, though, because I'll bet there are more people out here that would watch the channel than way out south. I know I would.

Looks like they're going to LD on RF49, right?
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=WOCH&city=&state=

I thought the large part of the Korean community was on the North side. Why is their antenna pointed SW? Do the engineers not know who their target audience is?

They were late to the digital game with applications, and then got shut out of the "good" channels. They did have 12, but got blindsided when WBBM took it. The only "open" channels left were ones that had to be nulled to the north and northwest due to interference from Milwaukee or Madison.
They could still change their mind and go to 11 (WBBM's old allocation), but they'd get stomped on in tropo from 3 different directions. Another option would be 9. They could only run 1 kilowatt if they were a full power, but being an LD, they can only run 300 watts. 300 watts at 1600' isn't bad, but 15 kilowatts on UHF gets you 60 miles. They could have taken 20, but Polvision beat them to it and will set up a transmitter in the northwest 'burbs.
25 was another one that waited too long.

I'd rather see reruns of jeopardy since they have it at 3:30 when everyone is at work.

Speaking of Jeopardy: Today was yet another day when the audio either had an awful incessant buzz or beep. This seems to happen a few times a month. As usual, the problem disappeared when they switched to the SD feed.

Are the audio problems coming down from the satellite?

Jeez. I'd rather see reruns of jeopardy since they have it at 3:30 when everyone is at work.Well, you could join the 21st century and get some kind of recorder. ;)

I used to record it on one of my standalone DVR's, but I stopped after I found I was just letting the shows accumulate and fill up my hard drive (being on practically every day can cause that).

If you don't mind SD, and just need something for the occasional show (like Jeopardy, where having it in HD isn't really so important), you could use something like this:

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=10104532

Hey all, I've decided I'm sick of dumping $90/month for tons of channels I don't even watch on Comcast.

Living in Oak Park, which is just outside city limits (Harlem @ I-290). What sort of antenna should I be using? I doubt the landlord will let me climb on the roof to put an antenna in.

Has anyone else an outtage on CBS WBBMDT 2-1?

We lost the signal starting sometime yesterday, missing a TiVo HD OTA recording last night. There was also no signal coming through on the LiveTV view last night.

I checked again earlier this afternoon and there was no signal at all on 2-1 OTA.

I hooked up my dusty Voom box which has it's own OTA HD tuner and it tunes all the local OTA HD stations today except for CBS 2-1. The machine REBOOTS every time I try to tune to CBS 2-1 or do a full channel scan.

I also have a Zenith SD DTV converter box and that was getting the SD DTV CBS signal just fine.

I spent a while testing everything and now, just before posting this, I am once again able to receive CBS WBBMDT 2-1 HD OTA on my TiVo.

Since the signal was coming in there, I decided to try the Voom OTA HD tuner again, but it still reboots if I try to tune to CBS 2-1.


Any tips or ideas? Was there an outtage or is WBBM working on their transmission setup this weekend? Did they change their frequency or subchannel or something?

Has anyone else an outtage on CBS WBBMDT 2-1? We lost the signal starting sometime yesterday, ......Since the signal was coming in there, I decided to try the Voom OTA HD tuner again, but it still reboots if I try to tune to CBS 2-1. Any tips or ideas? Was there an outtage or is WBBM working on their transmission setup this weekend? Did they change their frequency or subchannel or something?

i just checked ch 2.1....alls well here ...and has been all week/month....no changes that i am aware of...and good signal level, as usual....it must be something on your end....

Hey all, I've decided I'm sick of dumping $90/month for tons of channels I don't even watch on Comcast.

Living in Oak Park, which is just outside city limits (Harlem @ I-290). What sort of antenna should I be using? I doubt the landlord will let me climb on the roof to put an antenna in.

Start here: http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/Address.aspx

Once you have entered your info and displayed the stations, click the button to show only the digital channels. We are less than two months from analog shut off so I wouldn't even bother with them.

Most of the transmitters are due east of you and easy to pick up if your apartment faces east. If you don't face east, you will probably still get most channels, but may not get them all. Except for CBS channel 2 (WBBM-DT on Ch 3), all the digital channels are now in the UHF band. In June when the analog stations are shut off, that will change and two VHF High Band channels (7 and 12) will be added to the mix. Also, WBBM will disappear from VHF Low Band (moves to Ch 12). So you need an antenna that picks up UHF and VHF High Band only. Don't sweat WBBM-DT for now. It can be very hard to receive on channel 3 and is moving to channel 12 in June anyway.

As to what to use for an antenna, I would get something like a Channel Master CM-4220HD (http://www.channelmasterintl.com/documentation/datasheets/Channel%20Master%20New%204200%20Series%20HDTV%20UHF%20Antenn as_200807.pdf)and hide it behind a piece of furniture in your apartment. This outside antenna will pick up UHF signals and isn't too directional. Even indoors, it should provide plenty of signal gain in your location. You may need to try several locations in your apartment to maximze the number of channels you receive. Please be aware that the 4220 isn't really designed for VHF High Band reception. While many in close-in locations like yours are having luck with this antenna on VHF High Band (see Amazon ratings), you may need to add a small VHF antenna (rabbit-ears) to the 4220 with an antenna joiner to receive channels 7 and 12. I don't have any experience with indoor antennas but others here may be able to give you some recommendations. Also, check out EV's Best Top Rated HDTV Indoor Antenna Review (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037779).

One last thing, I assume you have a digital tuner of some sort. If you ditch cable, you will either need a recent TV with a built-in ATSC digital tuner, or a set top box (about $50 but you can get a $40 coupon) to convert digital signals to analog. The Zenith DTT901 is a good set top box for an older analog TV. I have one of these and find it to be the best tuner in my house for locking channels with weaker signals or multipath issues. If you have a widescreen TV it probably already has an internal digital tuner. But if it doesn't, you should not use a set top box since it will not properly match the resoluton and aspect ratio of your widescreen TV. There are some good tuner threads in the OTA sections of the forum if you need some recommendations.

Once you ditch cable, you might miss a few of your favorite cable shows, but there is so much programming now on the web. ESPN, CNN, FOX, and Discovery Channel all have free streams of various programs. Netflix also has unlimited streaming of many TV shows and movies for $9 per month. We cut the cable 20 years ago and never looked back. I can buy a nice car with what I've saved.

Have fun.

The Sears Tower's antennae were apparently hit by copius amounts of lightning during the surprise storm the other night, and I suppose that could've done something to some signals (I wasn't watching OTA at the time, so I don't know).

Can't remember which building 2.1 transmits from at the moment, though.

WBBM-DT currently comes off of Hancock, as I recall.

- Trip

Living in Oak Park, which is just outside city limits (Harlem @ I-290). What sort of antenna should I be using? I doubt the landlord will let me climb on the roof to put an antenna in.

I'm in Oak Park as well, if you have a new tuner, a pair of rabbit ears fully extended (I mean really big ones for CBS - they should be 5-6ft fully extended), horizontal, parallel with Harlem, is pulling in every channel including CBS! I help set up my neighbor and literally we did that against an east facing wall, at ground level - the TV is in a basement - I was pretty shocked!

Old tuners don't deal so well with it though, I was able to get every channel reliably with a 5th gen (DTV converter box), but had to have the rabbit ears outside of an east facing window, but that failed the WAF.

The Sears Tower's antennae were apparently hit by copius amounts of lightning during the surprise storm the other night, and I suppose that could've done something to some signals (I wasn't watching OTA at the time, so I don't know).

Can't remember which building 2.1 transmits from at the moment, though.

WBBM-DT currently comes off of Hancock, as I recall.

Thanks for the replies. It does seem to be back to normal now on my TiVo which is my main tuner, but it's odd that it's still crashing/rebooting my other tuner box. That has never happened before on CBS or any other channels.

You not supposed to watch tv when storms are in the area.. ;)

The Sears Tower's antennae were apparently hit by copius amounts of lightning during the surprise storm the other night, and I suppose that could've done something to some signals (I wasn't watching OTA at the time, so I don't know).

Can't remember which building 2.1 transmits from at the moment, though.
Yep and knocked out the strobes on the east tower.

Has anyone else an outtage on CBS WBBMDT 2-1?

We lost the signal starting sometime yesterday, missing a TiVo HD OTA recording last night. There was also no signal coming through on the LiveTV view last night.

I checked again earlier this afternoon and there was no signal at all on 2-1 OTA.

I hooked up my dusty Voom box which has it's own OTA HD tuner and it tunes all the local OTA HD stations today except for CBS 2-1. The machine REBOOTS every time I try to tune to CBS 2-1 or do a full channel scan.

I also have a Zenith SD DTV converter box and that was getting the SD DTV CBS signal just fine.

I spent a while testing everything and now, just before posting this, I am once again able to receive CBS WBBMDT 2-1 HD OTA on my TiVo.

Since the signal was coming in there, I decided to try the Voom OTA HD tuner again, but it still reboots if I try to tune to CBS 2-1.


Any tips or ideas? Was there an outtage or is WBBM working on their transmission setup this weekend? Did they change their frequency or subchannel or something?

Probably copious amounts of moisture in the air.

Comedian. :p;)

(I don't know what possessed me to use that term - I just thought it would sound pretty funny myself.)

WBBM has been screwed up on Dish for the last couple of days, also, so there must be something going on over there.

WFLD-DT is only showing the SD feed of Fox News Sunday. All of the commercials are also in SD. Have they been down for a while?

It's back now.

Comedian. :p;)



WBBM has been screwed up on Dish for the last couple of days, also, so there must be something going on over there.

Maybe Dishes setup is a coat hanger out the window :p

WBBM's been rock solid by me. As the leaves on trees sprout and they get waterlogged by the rain. More people with antenna's facing into this will have 2.1 go down. It's called attenuation.

WLS 7 basketball game on ABC looks like CRAP...compression artifacts everywhere. Compared to the Masters a few weeks ago on CBS, the difference is like night and day.

WLS 7 basketball game on ABC looks like CRAP...compression artifacts everywhere. Compared to the Masters a few weeks ago on CBS, the difference is like night and day.

It looks like Fox's old 480P widescreen. Do they not understand that no one is watching 7.2?

It looks like Fox's old 480P widescreen. Do they not understand that no one is watching 7.2?

I never saw that to compare it to, but this is the WORST looking picture quality of a sporting event I've ever seen in the three years I've had access to an HD signal. I'm watching on a 37" screen and it looks horrible. It must look like a youtube video during fast movement on a 60"+ screen. This insanity of running two 720p streams concurrently needs to stop.

I never saw that to compare it to, but this is the WORST looking picture quality of a sporting event I've ever seen in the three years I've had access to an HD signal. I'm watching on a 37" screen and it looks horrible. It must look like a youtube video during fast movement on a 60"+ screen. This insanity of running two 720p streams concurrently needs to stop.

Welcome to the future. They don't care about picture quality its all about viewers to watch the commercial time they sell. More channels and HD on top of it is a calling card. HD lite is widespread on cable and small dish systems. I would be surprised if they ever change it back. Another one bites the dust, it was just time with OTA.

Hats off to channel two right now, they have the best HD out there I think.

All the promotion for Livewell is touting "HD HD HD," so I think there's pretty much no hope for 7.2 to return to SD unless WLS drops Livewell (or ABC drops it, since WLS is an O&O and carrying Livewell might be a network decision rather than one by the station).

Meanwhile, 7.2's schedule is something like this, all times Central:

11pm - 2 am: the three hours of Livewell's six series
2 am - 5 am: infomercials and repeats of stuff from 7.1
5 am - 8 am: see 11pm
8 am - 10am: see 2 am
10am - 1 pm: see 11pm
1 pm - 3 pm: see 2 am
3 pm - 8 pm: see 11pm
8 pm - 11pm: see 2 am

How many different episodes of each of their six series will air in a day (could be five of the same episode for all we know) remains to be seen.

Live Well HD is actually being produced by ABC, so it wouldn't be something that would be "dropped" (unless it went cable-only--wouldn't be a bad move IMO) so much as something they'd have to shut down.

I won't cry if they shut it down.

- Trip

Live Well HD is actually being produced by ABC, so it wouldn't be something that would be "dropped" (unless it went cable-only--wouldn't be a bad move IMO) so much as something they'd have to shut down.That's what I was afraid of.  Thanks, Trip.I won't cry if they shut it down.Nor would anyone else here.

I watched their preview one of the times it aired Saturday: for this they need to wreck the resolution of the main channel?

I'm in Oak Park as well, if you have a new tuner, a pair of rabbit ears fully extended (I mean really big ones for CBS - they should be 5-6ft fully extended), horizontal, parallel with Harlem, is pulling in every channel including CBS! I help set up my neighbor and literally we did that against an east facing wall, at ground level - the TV is in a basement - I was pretty shocked!

Old tuners don't deal so well with it though, I was able to get every channel reliably with a 5th gen (DTV converter box), but had to have the rabbit ears outside of an east facing window, but that failed the WAF.


My TV has built in ATSC/QAM tuners. It's a new Samsung DLP (<1 year old).

My problem is that I have nowhere to put that Channel Master 4221 HD. It's about 3 feet x 4 feet. I doubt the landlord will let me put something like that outside. What if I stick it under the couch? I can't really put it behind the couch as there's a huge radiator there...I assume that would ruin the reception.

What sort of options do I even have here?

My TV has built in ATSC/QAM tuners. It's a new Samsung DLP (<1 year old).

My problem is that I have nowhere to put that Channel Master 4221 HD. It's about 3 feet x 4 feet. I doubt the landlord will let me put something like that outside. What if I stick it under the couch? I can't really put it behind the couch as there's a huge radiator there...I assume that would ruin the reception.

What sort of options do I even have here?

Look at the 4220 HD. It's half the size at 5.5 x 24.5 x 15.25 in. You do need to face the antenna east. It won't work lying flat on the floor. Hang it on the wall and decorate it. Or, try the rabbit ears, then go to something larger if needed. Do check out EV's Best Top Rated HDTV Indoor Antenna Review in the HDTV technical forum.

It looks like Fox's old 480P widescreen.Exactly. I flipped past "Desperate Housewives" last night, and I found myself thinking, "What in the world? Isn't this supposed to be in HD?"

So, do you think the WLS folks who approved the capital expenditures for local news were aware of the impact Livewell HD would have on 7.1 picture quality? Seems kind of silly to me to spend a big pile of money upgrading studios, trucks and helicopters in order to feed a bit-starved channel.

So, do you think the WLS folks who approved the capital expenditures for local news were aware of the impact Livewell HD would have on 7.1 picture quality? Seems kind of silly to me to spend a big pile of money upgrading studios, trucks and helicopters in order to feed a bit-starved channel.

Bitstarving is done all the time on Cable, Dish, Uverse etc systems. The programmers found out a long time ago most are interested in quantity vs quality. Look at the SD and HD lite picture quality on the small dish systems. Macroblocking, Mosquito noise. They have pushed the envelope beyond the max. Thats why they are migrating to mpeg 4 so they can cram more crap in the pipe. The problem with ATSC is its based on an old compression that don't have the capabilities of the newer codecs. So by multicasting beyond its limits it's going to suffer even more.

Soon the only one that will see a real quality picture is the engineer in the master control room :(

Exactly. I flipped past "Desperate Housewives" last night, and I found myself thinking, "What in the world? Isn't this supposed to be in HD?"

As time goes on I don't see OTA HD looking any better than a very good first generation SD picture. I feel sorry for the late adapters, they will never get the impact we saw when HD first started. Its all about making a buck with television, and advertising dollars pay the over bloated salaries.

Well, you could join the 21st century and get some kind of recorder. ;)

I used to record it on one of my standalone DVR's, but I stopped after I found I was just letting the shows accumulate and fill up my hard drive (being on practically every day can cause that).

If you don't mind SD, and just need something for the occasional show (like Jeopardy, where having it in HD isn't really so important), you could use something like this:

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=10104532

It's not that important to record. I was just making a point that the programming on Livwell sucks so bad that Jeopardy reruns are better than it.

My TV has built in ATSC/QAM tuners. It's a new Samsung DLP (<1 year old).

My problem is that I have nowhere to put that Channel Master 4221 HD.

What sort of options do I even have here?

Maybe you missed it in my post, but I was able to receive all of the locals in digital with fully stretched out rabbit ears, horizontal, parallel with harlem, on an east facing basement wall. That was with a brand new Panasonic TV. If you have a pair lying around, give it a go!

So, do you think the WLS folks who approved the capital expenditures for local news were aware of the impact Livewell HD would have on 7.1 picture quality? Seems kind of silly to me to spend a big pile of money upgrading studios, trucks and helicopters in order to feed a bit-starved channel.

Here's the link to report your dissatisfaction with WLS:
http://abclocal.go.com/wls/feature?section=resources/inside_station/station_info&id=5770573

Here's the link to report your dissatisfaction with WLS:
http://abclocal.go.com/wls/feature?section=resources/inside_station/station_info&id=5770573

While I don't watch a lot of local news, ever since Channel 2 started doing their news in HD, I find myself turning to them more often. Their picture is amazing and so clear. Channel 7's HD new just looks dull.

I was able to receive all of the locals in digital with fully stretched out rabbit ears, horizontal, parallel with harlem, on an east facing basement wall.But for people who don't notice that your location is Oak Park, they won't understand what's special about stretching them out parallel to Harlem.  It's that the lines from you to the transmitters are approximately perpendicular to Harlem.

For WBBM-DT I stretch out the rabbit-ear dipoles roughly parallel to Rogers.  Doing it here parallel to Harlem would get very poor results.

(After June 12 I'll push them in and turn them higher up; even if I wanted WOCK's digital signal on RF4, it won't be there for a long time to come.)

Bitstarving is done all the time on Cable, Dish, Uverse etc systems. The programmers found out a long time ago most are interested in quantity vs quality. Look at the SD and HD lite picture quality on the small dish systems. Macroblocking, Mosquito noise. They have pushed the envelope beyond the max. Thats why they are migrating to mpeg 4 so they can cram more crap in the pipe. The problem with ATSC is its based on an old compression that don't have the capabilities of the newer codecs. So by multicasting beyond its limits it's going to suffer even more.

Soon the only one that will see a real quality picture is the engineer in the master control room :(

And let me tell you, the raw Cubs/Sox feed is beautiful. :D

Ya too bad you couldn't share it with us.. I would love to see a Cband/ku back haul from wciu to us :)

The programmers found out a long time ago most are interested in quantity vs quality.Yes, but only if there's actually something on those extra channels worth watching. In this case, though...

Face it - they are just forcing this crap on us, even though no one has any interest in it. We all know what's behind the real reasons for these "expansions of available channels", but has it ever been this obvious?

Channel 7's HD now just looks dull.Everything on there now looks dull, soft and fuzzy. I don't even watch the channel at all anymore since this.

I used to at least watch Kimmel at night, but even that looks like complete s***.

Everything on there now looks dull, soft and fuzzy. I don't even watch the channel at all anymore since this.

KABC in LA has now fallen into this trap as well. I posted some screen caps on that thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16351704#post16351704

LW had some "HD" programming on over lunch.

I can't wait/dread to see how bad it looks on my home TV's. These caps are from a Fusion USB tuner.

FWIW, I contacted Channel 7 Engineering about the poor PQ on 7.1, and received this reply:

Thanks for contacting ABC 7 Chicago. We do appreciate questions and
comments. Since we upgraded 7.2 to HD, 7.1 has had some quality issues.
We have been tweaking the system to correct the quality issue and make
it better. It is a work in progress.

And let me tell you, the raw Cubs/Sox feed is beautiful. :D

I can imagine :) Digital can be really great but by the time it makes it to it's intended audience it can be pretty sad :(

FWIW, I contacted Channel 7 Engineering about the poor PQ on 7.1, and received this reply:

That's funny... where are they getting these magical bits from 7.3 or the bit fairy :rolleyes:

Maybe you missed it in my post, but I was able to receive all of the locals in digital with fully stretched out rabbit ears, horizontal, parallel with harlem, on an east facing basement wall. That was with a brand new Panasonic TV. If you have a pair lying around, give it a go!



ROFLMAO, I bought the RadioShack "UFO" antenna, put it on the floor behind my TV, and without even any adjustment the signal is 100% (according to the TiVo and TV). God bless my 7.4 mile distance to the Sears Tower.

FWIW, I contacted Channel 7 Engineering about the poor PQ on 7.1, and received this reply:

Good luck with that. It looks like now WLS may be a driving force behind this new ABC Sub Channel Network:

LINK: http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/209986-ABC_O_Os_Launch_Digital_Network.php


ABC O&Os Launch Digital Network
Stations look to 'Live Well' on subchannels
By Michael Malone -- Broadcasting & Cable, 4/27/2009 12:00:00 AM MT
ABC's 10 owned stations will launch a new digital channel, Live Well HD Network, April 27 with three hours of daily original programming produced primarily by the stations themselves. The network is ad-supported; stations represent major markets such as New York and Los Angeles.

The female-targeted, hi-def network focuses on home, health and lifestyle. It will launch with six half-hour programs, including the design show Home With Lisa Quinn, the cooking program Let's Dish and the outdoor-themed Motion. Live Well is run by WLS Chicago President/General Manager Emily Barr and the O&Os' Digital Media Executive VP Bill Burton.

Live Well will co-exist alongside digital channels such as Accuweather at the ABC stations, and will stream on LiveWellHD.com. Barr and Burton say the project was almost two years in the making.

7.2 was showing something in HD last night, and, I mean, it looked downright terrible. If you think ION Life blocks up with every little movement, you ain't seen nothing 'till you've seen this.

On the other hand, 7.1 was showing something in HD, too, and it looked a little better than it had been - so maybe they were "tweaking" it some. Probably by just taking back some of the bits from 7.2.

But man, did 7.2 look bad. You couldn't even watch it. It was as bad as those high school basketball games used to look on MeTV before they upgraded things over there.

It's not as if Livewell programming nor anything else on 7.2 (except maybe repeats of local news) actually benefited from being in 720p instead of 480i; it's in 720p at 7.1's expense only because some marketing creature thought that crowing "HD" would get more advertising revenue without thinking of the viewership loss and dissatisfaction for the main channel.

7.2 was showing something in HD last night, and, I mean, it looked downright terrible. If you think ION Life blocks up with every little movement, you ain't seen nothing 'till you've seen this.

On the other hand, 7.1 was showing something in HD, too, and it looked a little better than it had been - so maybe they were "tweaking" it some. Probably by just taking back some of the bits from 7.2.

But man, did 7.2 look bad. You couldn't even watch it. It was as bad as those high school basketball games used to look on MeTV before they upgraded things over there.

I saw the HD over on 7.2 too. It was okay as long as the camera didn't move, soon as it moved forget it all over macroblock city. I also noticed on 7.1 how much detail is now missing compared to even 5.1 which has been soft since 5.3 launched.

They can't do much tweaking because there are only so many bits going around. Even with stat mux if both HD channels need bandwidth because of a specific scene one or the other will be bit starved. When the bandwidth isn't there it isn't there. The Mpeg 2 codec is not as good as Mpeg 4 is as far as compressing. Why do you think all the HD multicasting has adopted Mpeg 4.

Short of scraping the whole ATSC system and redesigning it with Mpeg 4 which would mean all ATSC tuners would be no good and you would have to buy another tv, tuner or converter box (that would really go over good with the public :eek:) There isn't much that's going to change.

The female-targeted, hi-def network focuses on home, health and lifestyle. It will launch with six half-hour programs, including the design show Home With Lisa Quinn, the cooking program Let's Dish and the outdoor-themed Motion. Live Well is run by WLS Chicago President/General Manager Emily Barr and the O&Os' Digital Media Executive VP Bill Burton.
[/I][/B]

Great.... I get a crappy ABC picture so some rookie Lifetime/Oxygen/TLC/HGTV knockoff network can thrive... genius. I'm guessing the big 4 networks still don't understand the potential of the subchannels. NBC-US and Livwell... completely useless. At least FOX and CBS decide it's better to have one sharp primary feed than a subpar primary feed and a waste of bandwidth feed.

I emailed the programming department and got this response. Im going to show them this thread in hopes that we can get the quality back on these channels.


Thank you for your email.

We certainly appreciate you taking the time to share your comments about
LIVE WELL HD, however, would we hope that you might give it a little
more time before dismissing it. (At the time of your writing the
station had only been on the air 12 hours, and no repeat showings of our
new shows had been broadcast.)

This is a new, exciting venture and we take viewer feedback very
seriously. It's a great help in identifying any technical or content
problems. As such, your comments have been shared with our General
Manager and Engineering Department.

Thank you for your interest in ABC 7.

My rebuttal to their email

Actually,

7.2 went HD on 4-21, and your schedule for livewell shown here http://livewellhd.com/feature?id=6758734 shows that you are showing a bunch of repeats. The quality issues arrive from putting two Hd channels and one standard def channel in the space that was meant for one hd channel originally. The quality of the HD channel has been steadily declining over the years and what was once a beautiful HD channel has slowly turned into a very youtube hd like experience. In fact, I have seen High definition content coming from youtube that looks better what live well, and WLS's main ABC programming looks like. I used to watch ABC7's news because the quality of the picture coming from abc was one of the best in Chicago, that has come and passed and I now watch my news on CBS2HD.

If you would like more feedback from what REAL viewers are saying please see this thread over at AVS forum. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=815397&page=162 Many like me are mad that WLS has chosen to put viewers second by giving us sub standard HD.

Robert

My rebuttal to their email

Actually,

7.2 went HD on 4-21, and your schedule for livewell shown here http://livewellhd.com/feature?id=6758734 shows that you are showing a bunch of repeats. The quality issues arrive from putting two Hd channels and one standard def channel in the space that was meant for one hd channel originally. The quality of the HD channel has been steadily declining over the years and what was once a beautiful HD channel has slowly turned into a very youtube hd like experience. In fact, I have seen High definition content coming from youtube that looks better what live well, and WLS's main ABC programming looks like. I used to watch ABC7's news because the quality of the picture coming from abc was one of the best in Chicago, that has come and passed and I now watch my news on CBS2HD.

If you would like more feedback from what REAL viewers are saying please see this thread over at AVS forum. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=815397&page=162 Many like me are mad that WLS has chosen to put viewers second by giving us sub standard HD.

Robert

Good Luck

Very nice! Let's hope some good comes from this.

Do you guys notice issues with NBC? I haven't noticed problems yet -though I'm using a CECB to decode the signal and send it to my receiver, which upscales to 1080p and sends it to a projector...

The Channel Master 3016 is a little bit longer and a little bit narrower than my Antennas Direct V4, so it's likely to fit.

On the antenna combiner: the CM 7777 amp has two inputs (VHF, and combined) and switch to select separate or combined inputs. I can't find an explicit statement on the product Web page, but I would hope that Channel Master would include the appropriate filtering to support separate UHF and VHF.

Thanks for the advice. It looks like I'll need to visit Fry's on my next trip to the western suburbs.

In case you haven't found the information yet, the 7777 does have the bandpass filters to combine an UHF and a VHF antenna. In the single antenna mode, use the combined input. In the 2 antenna mode, the VHF antenna goes to the VHF input and the UHF antenna goes to the combined input.

I use the 7777 to combine a V4 with a DB4. For the record, despite the description as a "low VHF" antenna, the V4 does a fine job for all VHF and UHF, at my location. The only reason I use 2 antennas is so I can point the UHF antenna off angle to get 56.1/.2 from Gary, IN.

Dan (Woj...)

My rebuttal to their email

Apparently the owners think that WLS-TV is an acronym for "Women Love Sh*t TV". :D

I'd be highly insulted if I was in their target demo! At least WTTW got it sort of "right" with create -- bitstarve the hell out of it until it proves it has a market.

Do you guys notice issues with NBC? I haven't noticed problems yet -though I'm using a CECB to decode the signal and send it to my receiver, which upscales to 1080p and sends it to a projector...You're using a 480i CECB as a source for your projector? Why? Is it one of those 480p In Focus's or something?

You really should be using an HD tuner if you want to get the full enjoyment from your setup (even if it is only 480p, it'll still make a world of difference).

"Upscaling" a 480i signal to 1080i doesn't really mean much.

At least FOX and CBS decide it's better to have one sharp primary feed than a subpar primary feed and a waste of bandwidth feed.As for FOX, apparently you haven't noticed that excessive edge enhancement they started applying the last few weeks - that's giving people headaches and making shows completely unwatchable (many people have been just turning the shows off when they're like that. I came close myself during Prison Break a couple of times last week. It literally looked like a cartoon).

People have been complaining like crazy, and supposedly they're now "working on it" (see the Programming forum here for more info).

7.2 is horrible. Even the LW bug keeps pixelating!!

You're using a 480i CECB as a source for your projector? Why? Is it one of those 480p In Focus's or something?

You really should be using an HD tuner if you want to get the full enjoyment from your setup (even if it is only 480p, it'll still make a world of difference).

"Upscaling" a 480i signal to 1080i doesn't really mean much.

I'm just using a CECB for right now as a placeholder till I find something I want to do - torn between the DTV Pal HD tuner/DVR and a USB stick for my laptop. I can export the video at 1080p to the receiver/projector to take advantage of the HD programming...

OK, then. Good reason. :)

That DTV Pal DVR still doesn't sound very reliable to me, though. I don't know if that's ever going to get there. Even if they do get the bugs out, people are reporting getting dead units. I know I don't have any confidence in it yet.

OK, then. Good reason. :)

That DTV Pal DVR still doesn't sound very reliable to me, though. I don't know if that's ever going to get there. Even if they do get the bugs out, people are reporting getting dead units. I know I don't have any confidence in it yet.

Yeah there's also the fact that it doesn't do name-based recording - only time-based. Ugh!

I'll most likely pick up the USB tuner and give it a try this summer...

Everything on there now looks dull, soft and fuzzy. I don't even watch the channel at all anymore since this.

I used to at least watch Kimmel at night, but even that looks like complete s***.

You're in a location to be able to grab WISN in that case, aren't you?

Between the two markets, you can mostly avoid subchannels.

ABC - WISN (no subs)
CBS - WBBM (no subs)
CW - WVTV (no subs)
FOX - doesn't matter (no subs on either affiliate)
NBC - WTMJ (only the weather sub, no Universal Sports)
PBS - WMVS (no subs)

Wow, I just got my first look at 7.2. I can't believe that any engineer would look at that picture and call it HD and expect anyone to want to watch it.
They were showing the promo for Chopper 7 HD. It states "clearer picture". Yeah right.

Such a shame. WLS has been such a leader when it comes to HD. The first station to have local news in HD, produce local programs in HD (like 190N), and air syndicated programming in HD. Now they are the leader in making HD look terrible.

I just hope Channel 2 doesn't add any subchannels. Their newscasts are outstanding. I think I read last week that their news ratings are improving. If I was in their marketing department, I would capitalize on this. "Other stations starve their HD channel with meaningless programming, but we give you the clearest picture in Chicago. This isn't your father's Channel 2. CBS 2 - HD"

Expect WFLD FOX Chicago to broadcast their News In HD within 2-3weeks

You're in a location to be able to grab WISN in that case, aren't you?Something interferes with it - I forget what. I can get it on occasion, later at night.

But I can get WTVO-DT from Rockford 24/7, at about 95% signal strength.

I'd have to replace my amp and my rotor in order to get Milwaukee, as they both went out late last fall. I've just had the outdoor antenna pointed at Chicago all winter. I have an indoor antenna A/B'd on my main set that's pointed at Rockford and gets me WTVO-DT (ABC), WIFR-DT (CBS) and WQRF-DT (FOX).

I will definitely replace the amp, but I may not even bother with the rotor, as I'm tired of messing with it.

You're in a location to be able to grab WISN in that case, aren't you?

Between the two markets, you can mostly avoid subchannels.

ABC - WISN (no subs)
CBS - WBBM (no subs)
CW - WVTV (no subs)
FOX - doesn't matter (no subs on either affiliate)
NBC - WTMJ (only the weather sub, no Universal Sports)
PBS - WMVS (no subs)

I wish I could get WISN, but I can't thanks to WEDE on RF34! Same thing goes for WCGV because of W25DW.... Funny, the other Milwaukee stations come in just fine.

I just hope Channel 2 doesn't add any subchannels. Their newscasts are outstanding. I think I read last week that their news ratings are improving. If I was in their marketing department, I would capitalize on this. "Other stations starve their HD channel with meaningless programming, but we give you the clearest picture in Chicago. This isn't your father's Channel 2. CBS 2 - HD"

CBS O&O's have been banned from adding subchannels due to "quality issues". They want every bit going to the primary channel. They want quality over quantity, and their president has bluntly said so.

I will definitely replace the amp, but I may not even bother with the rotor, as I'm tired of messing with it.

How about getting a heavy duty bell rotor used for amateur radio beams. It should be able to handle any tv antenna array :) and last.

CBS O&O's have been banned from adding subchannels due to "quality issues". They want every bit going to the primary channel. They want quality over quantity, and their president has bluntly said so.

I hope that don't change. Once WBBM gets on 12 they will have the power to really be a digital HD leader. After so many years of poor reception in analog and digital... It's about time :D

CBS O&O's have been banned from adding subchannels due to "quality issues". They want every bit going to the primary channel. They want quality over quantity, and their president has bluntly said so.I hope that don't change. Once WBBM gets on 12 they will have the power to really be a digital HD leader.I wouldn't be shocked if CBS stations throttle down HD bandwidth to implement "ATSC-M/H", which would simulcast a center-cut version of CBS programming, to mobile audiences. Too much money to gain from it. If done right, 16.1 Mbps of space would still be available for HD video throughput. More info here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1078353&highlight=).

EDIT: Doesn't a WBBM engineer read this thread? Though football season is over, perhaps ATSC-M/H conditions could be simulated with a motion-heavy show, say, The Unit from 9-10 PM on Sundays. I know that WBBM uses Harris NetVX equipment, which can be programmed to allocate bitrates differently at different times, down to the day and hour. Perhaps he could temporarily program the NetVX to top out at ~16.1 Mbps for The Unit's time period, then alert this thread to watch and see how things look.

Mobile DTV is widescreen I believe, so I doubt they'd center cut it.

- Trip

Wow, I just got my first look at 7.2. I can't believe that any engineer would look at that picture and call it HD and expect anyone to want to watch it.
They were showing the promo for Chopper 7 HD. It states "clearer picture". Yeah right.

Such a shame. WLS has been such a leader when it comes to HD. The first station to have local news in HD, produce local programs in HD (like 190N), and air syndicated programming in HD. Now they are the leader in making HD look terrible.

I just hope Channel 2 doesn't add any subchannels. Their newscasts are outstanding. I think I read last week that their news ratings are improving. If I was in their marketing department, I would capitalize on this. "Other stations starve their HD channel with meaningless programming, but we give you the clearest picture in Chicago. This isn't your father's Channel 2. CBS 2 - HD"

I checked out 7.2 last night. OMG! :eek: This is really nasty!
I know that sometimes people rant about PQ that is only slightly less than perfect, but this is not even close to SD.

My bigger concern is how soft 7.1 is now.

I sent a message via the link posted earlier in this thread, and got the same canned reply. :mad:

I am certainly not the most discerning viewer when it comes to picture quality, but what ABC 7 has done to their main channel is a huge disappointment. I remember when their news first went HD. It looked incredible. Now everything just looks dull and lifeless. NBC 5 now looks much better than 7. WLS has completely eliminated the advantage they gained when they updated their news production to HD. I appreciate additional choices, but why even bother with HD when it looks like this. I'll be watching the news on 5 until they fix it. :(

Even though I'm new to the boards, I have lurked in the past around these boards and the info has been pretty helpful from different threads I've went into on AVS here!

I noticed tonight when I was watching Me-TV, that the guide seemed to be incorrect. In the guide it said "Perry Mason", but instead "I Love Lucy" was being shown. Then the following program said "The Untouchables", but "The Cosby Show" was airing instead. I thought (from my times lurking before) I recalled a poster who helps out at WCIU, so I figured someone would like to know this.

stwhoges, thanks for the tip. I'm sure it will be read.

And welcome to the funny pages.

I know that sometimes people rant about PQ that is only slightly less than perfect...I've never seen a complaint or rant here from anyone that's been watching these broadcasts on anything larger than a 27" screen that wasn't completely justifiable.

I am certainly not the most discerning viewer when it comes to picture quality, but what ABC 7 has done to their main channel is a huge disappointment. I remember when their news first went HD. It looked incredible. Now everything just looks dull and lifeless. NBC 5 now looks much better than 7. WLS has completely eliminated the advantage they gained when they updated their news production to HD. I appreciate additional choices, but why even bother with HD when it looks like this. I'll be watching the news on 5 until they fix it. :(

I made a prediction and told my friends about it that when they were done butchering HD we would probably have the same quality picture we had with analog SD. I think it may turn out worse though now.

They made SD digital look so crappy on the pizza dish systems and cable that people are glad to get a picture that looks like the old SD OTA minus the snow and ghosts, but now full of macroblocking and mosquito noise. (Enter HD lite)

Even though I'm new to the boards, I have lurked in the past around these boards and the info has been pretty helpful from different threads I've went into on AVS here!

I noticed tonight when I was watching Me-TV, that the guide seemed to be incorrect. In the guide it said "Perry Mason", but instead "I Love Lucy" was being shown. Then the following program said "The Untouchables", but "The Cosby Show" was airing instead. I thought (from my times lurking before) I recalled a poster who helps out at WCIU, so I figured someone would like to know this.

Welcome Stwhoges,
I will check it out when I get in.

Even though I'm new to the boards, I have lurked in the past around these boards and the info has been pretty helpful from different threads I've went into on AVS here!

I noticed tonight when I was watching Me-TV, that the guide seemed to be incorrect. In the guide it said "Perry Mason", but instead "I Love Lucy" was being shown. Then the following program said "The Untouchables", but "The Cosby Show" was airing instead. I thought (from my times lurking before) I recalled a poster who helps out at WCIU, so I figured someone would like to know this.
It's correct now. Sometimes the Guide data needs a good kick in the pants. :D

stwhoges, thanks for the tip. I'm sure it will be read.

And welcome to the funny pages.Thank you for the welcome bakers! :)

Welcome Stwhoges,
I will check it out when I get in.Thanks for the welcome too, hvs10trk!

It's correct now. Sometimes the Guide data needs a good kick in the pants. :DLOL, a bit of a pain in the tuchas, eh? :p

And thanks for the fix! Seems the fix tossed "The Untouchables" right at the noon slot (when it's supposed to be on, with this new Me-TV schedule), instead of always seeing in the guide "Charlie's Angels" , back in the day when that was associated with the old Me-TV schedule. :)


I'll be curious if the Me-Too guide stays right during this whole upcoming month of marathons. The guide data has a lot of shows to be ready for.

It's correct now. Sometimes the Guide data needs a good kick in the pants. :D

Can you kick the guide data for 48-1? I haven't been seeing any data for it.
Thanks

I still have yet to hear back from WLS, It seems like they dont give a crap anymore about the viewer. Thats obvious from the sub par youtube HD video on 7.2.

Can you kick the guide data for 48-1? I haven't been seeing any data for it.
Thanks

It's ok that I can see.

I'm having some real issues with ABC (7-1) giving huge random blocks of digital noise every few minutes. Only about 7.5 miles from the Sears Tower. Signal strength is 80 or better. Occasionally see it on NBC (5-1) as well, but it's really obnoxious on ABC.

Antenna is a Radio Shack "UFO". No discernible reduction in this strange digital blocking by adjusting gain, location, or "channel" on it.

http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/towerticker/2009/04/wbbmtv-eliminating-jobs.html

WBBM-TV eliminating jobs; Joanie Lum, Bill Zwecker, Howard Sudberry among those cut

I still have yet to hear back from WLS, It seems like they dont give a crap anymore about the viewer. Thats obvious from the sub par youtube HD video on 7.2.

If you hear back you'll probably get a canned reply like "Were sorry for the inconvenience, were working on it" Sure!

http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/towerticker/2009/04/wbbmtv-eliminating-jobs.html

WBBM-TV eliminating jobs; Joanie Lum, Bill Zwecker, Howard Sudberry among those cut

One anchor on the 6 and 10pm news? Seems like a lame stunt that doesn't work too well when tried. WBBM needs to keep up with the investigative reporting on the usual crooks and promote that in prime time to get the ratings. They are good at that. I get the sense more and more that channel 7 and 5 are go along to get along newscasts. With the exception of the WLS-iteam segments, of course.

I'm having some real issues with ABC (7-1) giving huge random blocks of digital noise every few minutes. Only about 7.5 miles from the Sears Tower. Signal strength is 80 or better. Occasionally see it on NBC (5-1) as well, but it's really obnoxious on ABC.

Antenna is a Radio Shack "UFO". No discernible reduction in this strange digital blocking by adjusting gain, location, or "channel" on it.It's a problem with WLS, not you at all. They have recently reduced "bitrate" on the ABC HD feed, to allow a second HD feed to occupy the 19.4 Mbps (megabits per second) of bitrate WLS can use. The problem is, only one HD feed can occupy a digital TV station, without causing the problems you notice. For additional evidence, just watch a few minutes of the feed on 7-2.

This same problem also occurs at a Philadelphia, PA station that is, like WLS, owned by ABC. A screenshot of a user with the same problem can be seen in this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16369512#post16369512).

NBC channel 5-1 has low-bitrate issues too, since that station airs too many feeds in their 19.4 Mbps feed, in addition to their HD channel. Since they don't have a second HD channel, their problem is smaller than WLS.

I'm trying to publicize this issue as widely as possible.

It is also being discussed here http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r22262924-WLSDT-ABC-Chicago-HD-Picture-quality-went-to-crap .

I will be adding some info on my OTA DTV site, as well.

Regards,

Randy

I'm having some real issues with ABC (7-1) giving huge random blocks of digital noise every few minutes. Only about 7.5 miles from the Sears Tower. Signal strength is 80 or better. Occasionally see it on NBC (5-1) as well, but it's really obnoxious on ABC.

Antenna is a Radio Shack "UFO". No discernible reduction in this strange digital blocking by adjusting gain, location, or "channel" on it.At 7.5 miles you really should be using an un-amped antenna. What could be causing your issues is overload.

I'm not positive, but I think that antenna still amps some even when it's turned down all the way, and if you turn the amp completely off, it might not even work at all.

I yanked the power from the antenna. It did not work at all, like you said.

I'll go grab a cheapie antenna from RadioShack and see what happens. Had a really nasty spell during The Office...right at a critical moment.

Hey all,

I have been very busy the last several months, as you can tell by my relative lack of posting. That's what happens when you have a rotten winter/spring and you're a weatherman! :p

BUT...

I'm catching up again and I just noticed that on April 23, WWTO-DT got their application for 80 kilowatts approved on channel 10 after analog shutdown! At 1300', that's a blowtorch. That almost doubles their current broadcast range. With that signal, they should make the Wisconsin border, Peoria, and much of Chicago easily!

This also greatly helps WLS and WBBM now! How?

The FCC says that no full-power station should be put at a competitive disadvantage because of a lack of power, barring interference issues with other stations. It's how WBBM got 4.4 kilowatts on channel 3; they claimed WPWR-DT, at 1 million watts, reached farther than WBBM could. Yeah, I know that was a farce due to the interference one gets on channel 3, but the point remains.

So now, WLS has 4.4 kilowatts, and WWTO-DT has 80 kw after June 12. Even though they're not broadcasting from Chicago, their service area will be HUGE after June 12, when they fire up their new transmitter. Essentially, the argument boils down to this: WBBM and WLS can go to the FCC and say: hey, you give us 8 kilowatts and 4.4 kilowatts, and you give them 80 kw? Whiskey Tango Hades, over! And, WLS has explicitly mentioned they want to go to higher power. This gives them an easy way to do this. WWTO gets to crank the cottage of wattage in our market, why can't we?

Now, I could be wrong here...if LaSalle county isn't in the Chicago DMA. I think it still is. If not, there's still room for argument here, and it will make WBBM and WLS's arguments easier, regardless.

While it is in the DMA, they can't go up to 80 kW.

Remember, the rule is that they can expand to match the coverage of the largest station in the market. So the first problem is that, of course, the stations on Sears are higher up, so that pushes the power level down.

The second problem is that WWTO has a directional pattern. It's a rather vicious one too, cutting the south half off the circle. Now I'm not sure if it's area over land (which would discount the area over the lake) or area within the coverage contour, but that could constrain the amount of boost they could get. I guess it's a matter of how the FCC interprets the rule.

The third problem is one you pointed out--interference concerns with other stations. WBBM-DT 12 will have to work out interference problems with WREX-DT 13 and WINM-DT 12 among others, and WLS-DT would have to do the same with WOOD-DT 7 and WMVS-DT 8. I'm not sure how much of a boost they could get given those issues.

- Trip

While it is in the DMA, they can't go up to 80 kW.

Remember, the rule is that they can expand to match the coverage of the largest station in the market. So the first problem is that, of course, the stations on Sears are higher up, so that pushes the power level down.

The second problem is that WWTO has a directional pattern. It's a rather vicious one too, cutting the south half off the circle. Now I'm not sure if it's area over land (which would discount the area over the lake) or area within the coverage contour, but that could constrain the amount of boost they could get. I guess it's a matter of how the FCC interprets the rule.

The third problem is one you pointed out--interference concerns with other stations. WBBM-DT 12 will have to work out interference problems with WREX-DT 13 and WINM-DT 12 among others, and WLS-DT would have to do the same with WOOD-DT 7 and WMVS-DT 8. I'm not sure how much of a boost they could get given those issues.

- Trip

Trip,

Right on the 80 kw. I should be more clear to say that they should be able to get the 80 kilowatt *equivalent at that height*. 80 KW from Sears at 1700' would get WBBM almost to the Mississippi River!
(WLS-TV 7's analog signal is watched by a few in Dixon, IL...with good antennas, of course, but you catch my drift.)

As for the directionality, WLS would have to have a null to the north if they went a lot higher in power, and WBBM's issues as noted. But my point remains: this means they should, in theory, be able to get significantly more power, within the interference restrictions you mention, if they wanted it. WLS needs an easy "excuse" to boost power, instead of preparing a big engineering statement. While it will help, now they have an easier "out".

And as for WWTO, let me be blunt: they probably have zero viewership, or near there, from channel 10 in Ottawa and Peoria now; this doesn't change that. What they really want is Chicago and cable TV coverage for free, and now they'll have it due to "must carry".

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT1301838.html

Our roofer noticed that the 300Ω-to-75Ω adaptor (or maybe it's a 75Ω-to-300Ω in use backwards? it's the kind with two clips at the ends of wires on the 300Ω end and a female F-connector on the 75Ω end) was loose and broken and replaced it.  Now the old antenna is performing better than ever: WBBM-DT, WJYS-DT, and WWME-LD are coming in strong enough that they can survive the two-way split to feed two televisions without an amplifier.  Previously WBBM-DT and WWME-LP could feed one TV but needed the amplifer to feed both, and WJYS-DT wasn't coming in at all.

We're still not getting WYIN-DT, but I figure that any of their programming that isn't specific to Hoosiers is also broadcast on WYCC or WTTW or both, so we can live without it.

We don't get WWTO either (except for TBN on Comcast channel 230), but if we're lucky, we still won't after their power increase.  According to the map, their increased coverage will miss us, and our antenna faces south-southeast, not west-southwest.

WXFT-DT & WGBO-DT

It's not that these two stations are very important to my viewing but for the last several days I have had no video or audio on either WXFT-DT 60-1 or WGBO-DT 66-1. There is plenty of signal there (at least 80% ss), just no video or audio. This is with a Sony built in tv tuner. All other stations are fine. Any others seeing this?

WXFT-DT and WGBO-DT are giving us their own problems.  One TV doesn't seem to like their PSIP data any more and shows them only on 59-1 and 53-1 with no channel IDs.  Another shows WXFT-DT both on 59-1 with no channel ID and on 60-1 as WXFT DT, and WGBO-DT both on 53-1 with no channel ID and on 66-1 as WGBODT.  Our other TV with an ATSC tuner and all of our CECBs show the two stations properly, only on their virtual channels, with their channel IDs.

It should be noted that all seven of these tuners cope perfectly well with Weigel's PSIP, having no trouble with three different major channels on RF27 nor with channels from two different physical frequencies on virtual channel 23.

WXFT-DT and WGBO-DT are giving us their own problems.* One TV doesn't seem to like their PSIP data any more and shows them only on 59-1 and 53-1 with no channel IDs.* Another shows WXFT-DT both on 59-1 with no channel ID and on 60-1 as WXFT*DT, and WGBO-DT both on 53-1 with no channel ID and on 66-1 as WGBODT.* Our other TV with an ATSC tuner and all of our CECBs show the two stations properly, only on their virtual channels, with their channel IDs.

It should be noted that all seven of these tuners cope perfectly well with Weigel's PSIP, having no trouble with three different major channels on RF27 nor with channels from two different physical frequencies on virtual channel 23.


I've noticed weird numbers popping up for 60 and 66 the other day. They should abandon the whole mapping idea and you just tune to the RF channel. The problem is people are so dumb they would never know where there favorite channel went. :eek: Digital is better right :rolleyes:

WXFT-DT and WGBO-DT are giving us their own problems.* One TV doesn't seem to like their PSIP data any more and shows them only on 59-1 and 53-1 with no channel IDs.* Another shows WXFT-DT both on 59-1 with no channel ID and on 60-1 as WXFT*DT, and WGBO-DT both on 53-1 with no channel ID and on 66-1 as WGBODT.* Our other TV with an ATSC tuner and all of our CECBs show the two stations properly, only on their virtual channels, with their channel IDs.

It should be noted that all seven of these tuners cope perfectly well with Weigel's PSIP, having no trouble with three different major channels on RF27 nor with channels from two different physical frequencies on virtual channel 23.

I went to a friend's house a few days ago and noted that when I did a scan, I also had 53-1 and 59-1 come up nameless, and had 60-1 and 66-1 as normal properly identified. This with a 40" Samsung.

Our roofer noticed that the 300Ω-to-75Ω adaptor (or maybe it's a 75Ω-to-300Ω in use backwards? it's the kind with two clips at the ends of wires on the 300Ω end and a female F-connector on the 75Ω end) was loose and broken and replaced it.* Now the old antenna is performing better than ever: WBBM-DT, WJYS-DT, and WWME-LD are coming in strong enough that they can survive the two-way split to feed two televisions without an amplifier.* Previously WBBM-DT and WWME-LP could feed one TV but needed the amplifer to feed both, and WJYS-DT wasn't coming in at all.

We're still not getting WYIN-DT, but I figure that any of their programming that isn't specific to Hoosiers is also broadcast on WYCC or WTTW or both, so we can live without it.

We don't get WWTO either (except for TBN on Comcast channel 230), but if we're lucky, we still won't after their power increase.* According to the map, their increased coverage will miss us, and our antenna faces south-southeast, not west-southwest.

Good! I bet if you put a preamp on there:

1. You would get WYIN;
2. You might overload the Chicago stations.

Either way, WYIN should be coming in on some calm and clear nights, or when a warm front is approaching. See if you can get anything else this spring-fall when "tropo" hits.

They should abandon the whole mapping idea and you just tune to the RF channel. The problem is people are so dumb they would never know where there favorite channel went.It's not that people are that dumb.  It's that the broadcast industry and the FCC thinks people are that dumb.  TV stations have changed channels and networks have moved from one station to another (and therefore to other channels) many times in many markets and viewers have learned where to find the programs.

Good! I bet if you put a preamp on there:

1. You would get WYIN;
2. You might overload the Chicago stations.I'll give it a try when the weather is appropriate.

WYIN-DT's been coming in steady out here for the last couple of hours around 66-68%.

......80 KW from Sears at 1700' would get WBBM almost to the Mississippi River! (WLS-TV 7's analog signal is watched by a few in Dixon, IL...with good antennas, of course, but you catch my drift.)

wow....very interesting.....dixon is more than halfway to the iowa border from chicago....thats quite a distance....how much of an antenna and how high up does it have to be to do this? and how many other chicago tv signals make it out there, if any?

........The FCC says that no full-power station should be put at a competitive disadvantage because of a lack of power, barring interference issues with other stations. It's how WBBM got 4.4 kilowatts on channel 3; they claimed WPWR-DT, at 1 million watts, reached farther than WBBM could.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/images/icons/icon5.gif.....so that means wbbm had even less than 4.4 kw originally? what power were they at then?

is there some crazy and/or obscure fcc rule that says digital vhf low-band tv transmitters have to be at a very low power level east of the mississippi river for some wacky reason? i think i read that long ago in a thread here somewhere...if so, whats that all about?

It's not that people are that dumb.* It's that the broadcast industry and the FCC thinks people are that dumb.* TV stations have changed channels and networks have moved from one station to another (and therefore to other channels) many times in many markets and viewers have learned where to find the programs.



One of the reasons that 48.1 was mapped in is because people don't know what 26.3 is. I deal with clients all the time that can barley operate an analog tv. Digital just boggles there mind.

wow....very interesting.....dixon is more than halfway to the iowa border from chicago....thats quite a distance....how much of an antenna and how high up does it have to be to do this? and how many other chicago tv signals make it out there, if any?

WGN barely comes in, from one person I have heard. Because of it's lower frequency and high power, WLS used to be easily picked up in Grand Rapids, MI, before a digital 7 signed on over there.

I have a friend who used to live in Creston, IL, about 10 miles west of DeKalb. Using a Radio Shack VU-190 antenna, which isn't very good in either construction or receive quality, he could get a more than watchable signal from WOCH-CA when it was on channel 28 (now on 41), and did well with the other stations. That's more than 70 miles out.

Height is might, and I'd rather have that than very high power. At a measly 4.75 kilowatts, WLS-DT easily made it out to my attic antenna during it's channel 7 RF test some months ago. I hope WBBM will do a public test before June so we can see it before they switch over.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/images/icons/icon5.gif.....so that means wbbm had even less than 4.4 kw originally? what power were they at then?

is there some crazy and/or obscure fcc rule that says digital vhf low-band tv transmitters have to be at a very low power level east of the mississippi river for some wacky reason? i think i read that long ago in a thread here somewhere...if so, whats that all about?

Yessir, 3.7 kw. That is the maximum allowed on Hancock at that height for channels 2-6. To get the additional 700 watts of ERP, they had to show they were at a competitive signal disadvantage to the strongest station in the market. That would, in theory, be channel 50...but the additional 700 watts doesn't really matter. Furthermore, they had to have a signal null to protect channel 3 in Madison. So northwest suburban folks get a signal less than 3 kilowatts still, if you are directly inbetween Chicago and Madison.

The rule is 10 kw at 1000' for sites east of the Mississippi, broadcasting on channels 2-6. West of the Mississippi, and you go 100 kw, I believe. Go higher than that, and you must lower your power. I can't remember what VHF-HI is offhand right now, but I think it isn't any better. Stations all over are screaming competitive disadvantage to their UHF counterparts. And, by justifiable means, you can go higher power if the FCC allows. One station in the southeastern U.S. wants 3 million watts on their UHF channel, IIRC, because they claim they've lost viewers. It will be interesting to see if the FCC grants that.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/images/icons/icon5.gif.....so that means wbbm had even less than 4.4 kw originally? what power were they at then?

The FCC allotted them 2.6 kW.

is there some crazy and/or obscure fcc rule that says digital vhf low-band tv transmitters have to be at a very low power level east of the mississippi river for some wacky reason? i think i read that long ago in a thread here somewhere...if so, whats that all about?

It's not obscure, it's 47CFR73.622 or 623 (I forget which). In Zone I, where WBBM is located, power is capped at 10 kW from 1000 feet for low-VHF, 30 kW at 1000 feet for upper-VHF, and the nation-wide limit for UHF is 1000 kW at 1200 feet. Stations get more power than that due to 47CFR73.622(f)(5) which says stations can expand coverage to match the "largest station" in the market, which is the rule we're discussing.

- Trip

One station in the southeastern U.S. wants 3 million watts on their UHF channel, IIRC, because they claim they've lost viewers. It will be interesting to see if the FCC grants that.

I think you're thinking of WBNS-DT in Columbus OH which actually wants 1700 kW on channel 21. The FCC has yet to rule on that one.

VHF power limits are 30 kW at 1000 feet in Zone I, 160 kW at 1000 feet in Zone II. I've got a nice calculator for height versus power on RabbitEars: http://www.rabbitears.info/calc.php

- Trip

.....The rule is 10 kw at 300' for sites east of the Mississippi, broadcasting on channels 2-6. West of the Mississippi, and you go 100 kw, I believe. Go higher than that, and you must lower your power.....

ok....very interesting.....thanks to u and 'Trip in VA' for your replies....

but....i still dont get it entirely....whats so different east versus west of the Mississippi in digital? as far as i know there is no such parallel rule on analog vhf low-band....those stations can run 100 kw max visual analog power anywhere in the country.....and with lower power limits if their antenna is very high up....right? why is there this difference east versus west of the Mississippi in digital only?

ok....very interesting.....thanks to u and 'Trip in VA' for your replies....

but....i still dont get it entirely....whats so different east versus west of the Mississippi in digital? as far as i know there is no such parallel rule on analog vhf low-band....those stations can run 100 kw max visual analog power anywhere in the country.....and with lower power limits if their antenna is very high up....right? why is there this difference east versus west of the Mississippi in digital only?

In Zone I, stations are packed closer together due to denser population and more cities which wanted their own stations. In the west, a station needs to carry as large an area as possible since there's often little overlap between coverage areas.

There have been VHF power limits in Zone I for a very long time. WBBM-2 analog runs 26.4 kW, WMAQ-5 runs 20 kW, versus the 100 kW limit, due to their height. WLS-7 is at 55 kW, WGN-9 at 110 kW, and WTTW-11 at 60.3 kW, versus the 316 kW limit.

- Trip

Is WYINDT2 on 56.2 carrying a signal today?  At Sebenste's suggestion I tried to see if we could pull in WYIN-DT with an amplifier now that our antenna is fixed, and WYINDT1 came in blockily and shakily (in 480i) as 56.1, but 56.2 was there as WYINDT2 with just a black screen and silence.

Is WYINDT2 on 56.2 carrying a signal today?* At Sebenste's suggestion I tried to see if we could pull in WYIN-DT with an amplifier now that our antenna is fixed, and WYINDT1 came in blockily and shakily (in 480i) as 56.1, but 56.2 was there as WYINDT2 with just a black screen and silence.Like within the past week or two, 56.2 has been black for me, so I don't know what's going on with WYIN. It's good to know that I'm not the only one pulling in a black screen on 56.2 though. :) Maybe they're working on 56.2; any thoughts?


Not to be a bother another week in a row, hvs10trk, but I believe Me-TV and Me-Too schedules are off this week again. I think Me-TV has the old schedule in the guide and Me-Too has it's regular schedule in the guide--not any marathon data. Any way you could check on that, please? (Well, I figured I'd ask nice, since I asked you something very similar to this last week :))

I'd check myself, but there's no way in heck I'm going to get it in the daytime, anyway.

It used to be Create (so it's not like you were missing anything, anyway), but maybe they're changing it now. My tuners are currently also picking up a blank 17.3 and 17.4, so maybe something's being done with all of those.

If they can add World or something similar, and maybe up the power a bit, I'd be all set up real nice with PBS channels. Definitely wouldn't care about no rotor then. Just point, fix, and leave.

Like within the past week or two, 56.2 has been black for me, so I don't know what's going on with WYIN. It's good to know that I'm not the only one pulling in a black screen on 56.2 though. :) Maybe they're working on 56.2; any thoughts?


I heard that 56.2 they pulled down because they carried Create and WTTW also does and complained. I can get 56.1 solid anytime about 75% quality on the southwest side of Chicago. 56.2 has been dead.

I am sorry, I dont think we are dumb, we are just not informed.
The media concentrates more on the swine flu and murders but not the issue with channing stations
I have been bounced around differnt threads and hope I finallyfound the right one, I got this link from someone else that I was in the wrong forum

2 issues
1. Small indoor antenna
antenna model 151892 from radio shack
does it work pretty well? it was mentioned in one of the messages
I am in the schaumburg area and am having issues in 2 rooms with out antenna jacks
one is facing slightly ne and the other slightly sw as my house is at an angle
I bought the rca 55db amplified indoor antenna ant1251

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....egories&ks=960

from best buy, but works ok in the ne room but not the sw room

BB said to try a terk tv anywhere wireless system lf30sTerk - Wireless Multiroom A/V Distribution System
Model: LF-30S | SKU: 5433587
has anyone used this, and will it split the signal too much from the other tv
I have not set it up yet, got confused but is $106

2.
I am in schaumburg and also am not getting 7.1 very well and usually not any of the 5's at all thrugh my attic antenna but perfect on analog and I saw somewhere that if analog is good, there should be no digital problems- not in my case

What is the spreadsheet someone mentioned and tunning to 81?
when I tune manually to another high channel, it jumps back to 5 or 7 or whatever

WLFD FOX News Chicago set to debut HD this sunday 5/10

http://twitpic.com/4k4lh

ABC-7 sports in HD, can they catch CBS-2?

WLFD FOX News Chicago set to debut HD this sunday 5/10

http://twitpic.com/4k4lh

'Bout time! Let's see how much of their broadcast winds up in HD..

'Bout time! Let's see how much of their broadcast winds up in HD..

Only the inside studio footage..everything else SD

ABC-7 sports in HD, can they catch CBS-2?Not with LivewellHD weighing them down.

Since last Friday (5/1), I haven't been able to get any signal at all on WFLD Fox 32.1. I'm on the city's north side. The reception was always fine before, and I haven't changed anything in my equipment setup, but now no matter how I adjust the antenna there's simply nothing. (Fox's analog signal on 32 still comes in... as do all the other digital channels, same as ever.)

I've searched online and found zilch about broadcast problems. Has anyone else experienced this? If not, can anyone suggest a possible explanation?

Edited to add: Okay, Never Mind... :o

I couldn't get anything by tuning it either through the TVGOS program guide, or by entering the digits directly... just a black screen reading "No Signal." BUT when I ran an "Add Channel" Scan, it showed up and tuned in fine thereafter. Go figure.

Still no idea why it went away in the first place, though. (And this is all tuned through my Sony DHG-HDD250 DVR... maybe I should have posted it in that thread. Ah well, hindsight...)

In Zone I, stations are packed closer together due to denser population and more cities which wanted their own stations. In the west, a station needs to carry as large an area as possible since there's often little overlap between coverage areas.

There have been VHF power limits in Zone I for a very long time. WBBM-2 analog runs 26.4 kW, WMAQ-5 runs 20 kW, versus the 100 kW limit, due to their height. WLS-7 is at 55 kW, WGN-9 at 110 kW, and WTTW-11 at 60.3 kW, versus the 316 kW limit.

- Trip

Where is zone I? In northern Michigan and WI they are using 100kW for VHF lo and 316 kW for VHF hi stations. South Bend used to run 5MW on WNDU-16. What are the corresponding limits for digital TV?

You can see Zone 1 on 2nd page from top at http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2007/octqtr/pdf/47cfr73.699.pdf

Where is zone I? In northern Michigan and WI they are using 100kW for VHF lo and 316 kW for VHF hi stations. South Bend used to run 5MW on WNDU-16. What are the corresponding limits for digital TV?

http://www.rabbitears.info/Zone1.jpg

- Trip

Like within the past week or two, 56.2 has been black for me, so I don't know what's going on with WYIN. It's good to know that I'm not the only one pulling in a black screen on 56.2 though. :) Maybe they're working on 56.2; any thoughts?


Not to be a bother another week in a row, hvs10trk, but I believe Me-TV and Me-Too schedules are off this week again. I think Me-TV has the old schedule in the guide and Me-Too has it's regular schedule in the guide--not any marathon data. Any way you could check on that, please? (Well, I figured I'd ask nice, since I asked you something very similar to this last week :))

It's a wee bit off. :eek: Thanks for the heads up.

What the heck happened to WWME and WMEU for a few minutes around 3:18 this afternoon?  26.2, 23.1, 23.2, 23 analog, and Comcast 223 were delivering nothing, and it was the same on 26.3 (didn't get to check 48 analog or 48.1 before they came back) and Comcast 247.  As far as I could tell, WCIU-DT, ThisTV, and FBT were OK throughout, but "as far as I could tell" is a major qualifier.

I am certainly not the most discerning viewer when it comes to picture quality, but what ABC 7 has done to their main channel is a huge disappointment. I remember when their news first went HD. It looked incredible. Now everything just looks dull and lifeless. NBC 5 now looks much better than 7. WLS has completely eliminated the advantage they gained when they updated their news production to HD. I appreciate additional choices, but why even bother with HD when it looks like this. I'll be watching the news on 5 until they fix it. :(

Agreed. I like choice, but not at the cost ABC 7 is paying. For me, 26 TheU still manages to look alright, even when supplying 3 subchannels I actually enjoy watching. But ABC 7 trying to do 2 HD subchannels is ridiculous. If they want a better looking 7.2, what is wrong with widescreen 480p? It would still be the best looking "extra" channel out there, while still leaving enough bandwidth for 7.1 to look acceptable.

Only the inside studio footage..everything else SD

How WGN of them! :D

Agreed. I like choice, but not at the cost ABC 7 is paying. For me, 26 TheU still manages to look alright, even when supplying 3 subchannels I actually enjoy watching. But ABC 7 trying to do 2 HD subchannels is ridiculous. If they want a better looking 7.2, what is wrong with widescreen 480p? It would still be the best looking "extra" channel out there, while still leaving enough bandwidth for 7.1 to look acceptable.

Remember that whole "stupid" argument about ten posts ago? Apply it here.

How WGN of them! :D

at least WGN is doing pre-recorded specials footage in HD ;)

http://twitter.com/davidnovarro

Local stations teaming up to save costs. They will pool camera crews at some press events. What do you think?

I watched Jeopardy earlier, and man, did it look bad, bad, bad.

Some of the lettering was soft, and there was all kinds of "fuzz" on their faces.

http://twitter.com/davidnovarro

Local stations teaming up to save costs. They will pool camera crews at some press events. What do you think?

I wouldn't mind seeing a few less mics on the podium, and fewer flashes of light.

"I watched Jeopardy earlier, and man, did it look bad, bad, bad.

Some of the lettering was soft, and there was all kinds of "fuzz" on their faces."


just bought a 27" lcd it looks ok to me.... :(

Maybe with a 50" display like I have you might notice the flaws a little more. But then again, maybe not.

Just doesn't look as good as it used to. Nothing on that channel does now.

View the "We hate overly compressed ABC HD" thread on dbstalk.com
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=156899

yeah, lots of people viewing O&O ABC affiliates across the country are furious about the primary channel's picture quality.

Add me to the group disappointed with ABC's "dual HD" channels. I have to admit, I thought that you guys were blowing it out of proportion with how bad you were describing the picture to be before I got a glimpse of it myself. Watched Wheel of Fortune the other night and it looked horrible. What a huge mistake on their part. I can only hope that their engineers read this board and resolve this issue in a timely fashion.

... I can only hope that their engineers read this board and resolve this issue in a timely fashion.
I suspect that the ABC engineers advised against this, but that management made the decision to do it anyway.

Tuesday's Chicago Tonight on WTTW had a story about lip sync issues, including their own show.

You can view a clip here:
WTTW - Chicago Tonight - Chicago Tonight Recent Stories (http://www.wttw.com/main.taf?p=42,8,8&vid=050509f)

There is even a survey asking questions if you are having problems:
WTTW - Chicago Tonight - Lip Sync Problem Survey (http://www.wttw.com/main.taf?p=42,8,52)