Quick question:
What are people in downtown Chicago getting on analog channel 13 and 41?
(Or has everyone thrown out their analog tuners and gone digital?)

WYIN is broadcasting four separate channels ... no reuse! There are two separate HD channels (D1 and D2) and two separate SD channels (D3 and D4). The HD channels are running just under 8 mbps each and the SD channels are running around 1 mbps. All four channels are 16x9. When I caught them last night all four were showing the same content, but they are different streams.
It's causing havoc with Comcast's SD feed, the only feed I can get. It's basically the HD downconverted. The result is that an SD program that is also letterboxed ends up double-letterboxed. You get a really tiny picture in the middle of the screen, with the CC data lines flickering along the top of the tiny picture. HD stuff seems to be regular letterboxed.

It's causing havoc with Comcast's SD feed, the only feed I can get. It's basically the HD downconverted. The result is that an SD program that is also letterboxed ends up double-letterboxed. You get a really tiny picture in the middle of the screen, with the CC data lines flickering along the top of the tiny picture. HD stuff seems to be regular letterboxed.

Call Comcast and bitch, that's what your paying for. Or wait till 56 decides to do something.

Just was browsing one of the earlier posts about the stations and saw this one:

WGN-DT : 645 kW - (19) - CW drops to 600 kw in 2009, but raises antenna height by ~150'


Any one know if WGN has done this yet or are they still in the process of raising the antenna? Just was curious if anyone knew.

Quick question:
What are people in downtown Chicago getting on analog channel 13 and 41?
(Or has everyone thrown out their analog tuners and gone digital?)

I'm not downtown (I'm about 15 miles SW), but:

- When 4.1 started transmitting, analog 13 disappeared. As of just now, it's still gone.

- Analog 41 was still running the Korean programming currently on 13.1.

BTW, the white line on the left edge of the picture on 13.1 and analog 41 -- which they appeared to have fixed on Friday -- is now back again.

It's causing havoc with Comcast's SD feed, the only feed I can get. It's basically the HD downconverted. The result is that an SD program that is also letterboxed ends up double-letterboxed. You get a really tiny picture in the middle of the screen, with the CC data lines flickering along the top of the tiny picture. HD stuff seems to be regular letterboxed.

Comcast has a similar problem with their analog channel 11 feed; it is somewhat zoomed in and also shows the flickering line on the top of the picture.

I'm not downtown (I'm about 15 miles SW), but:

- When 4.1 started transmitting, analog 13 disappeared. As of just now, it's still gone.

- Analog 41 was still running the Korean programming currently on 13.1.
Thanks. I was thinking downtown because of the range of the signals. Analog 13 appears to still be licensed although it is a weird official call sign (WOCK-CD on a "CA" type station on channel 13). Perhaps the FCC is just screwy again. (Upon further review WOCK was displaced from channel 13 ... so it is right that they stopped broadcasting there. The FCC just has a record to cleadn up.)

When WOCH gets their companion channel CP change approved I expect we'll see WOCK and WOCH on both digital feeds ... with the UHF WOCH providing a clearer signal.

BTW, the white line on the left edge of the picture on 13.1 and analog 41 -- which they appeared to have fixed on Friday -- is now back again.
The line wasn't there last night at 10:20pm. I wonder what broke it?

WHat is the deal with WLS TV 7.1??
Ever since the digital trans. It has been weka as hell 65-70% Signal on my Dish network 622.

I have a winegard hd8200p and a winegard hd8275 preamp. Channel 2.1 is now finally watchable but 7.1 is not here in Plano. My parents are in Sugar grove and have an older winegard 35" up on a tower and same thing all other channels blow in 95-100% signal???

I'm also in Plano but receive WLS-DT fairly well. There are periodic video and audio glitches caused by electrical impulses and lightning but overall ss usually reads 87-93% here on the north side of town. However I do hope they get to move to rf 44 and thus restore their former very stable signal.

When WOCH gets their companion channel CP change approved I expect we'll see WOCK and WOCH on both digital feeds ... with the UHF WOCH providing a clearer signal.I assume you really mean a "stronger" or "more stable" signal there - not "clearer" - because it's doubtful that the picture quality will actually be any "clearer".

The line wasn't there last night at 10:20pm. I wonder what broke it?From what I've heard in the past, I think it might be a particular tape player they're using.

Any one know if WGN has done this yet or are they still in the process of raising the antenna? Just was curious if anyone knew.Man, this whole digital thing is regressing rather than progressing.

It's going back to how it was for me when I originally got into receiving digital a few years back - when the power levels were lower and the tuners weren't as sensitive - and I was only receiving about 3/4 of the available Chicago transmissions.

Between that and the watering down of the HD, we have surely been going backwards with this.

(And that's not even counting that I'm getting less stations than I did in analog.)

This is BS.

Added height will more than compensate for the itty, bitty, 0.3 dB decrease in power.

- Trip

I don't know if it will for me, though - being 41 miles out and going through a bunch of trees.

I can't get WBBM or WLS at all lately. I never had this much trouble with VHF before.

You know, we do have a pretty high-powered "official, McHenry County radio station" FM transmitter not too far away. I wonder if that has anything to do with it? (I get awful reception for HD radio, too. I know it's very low-powered, but even at 41 miles, people tell me I should be receiving better.)

Man, this whole digital thing is regressing rather than progressing.

It's going back to how it was for me when I originally got into receiving digital a few years back - when the power levels were lower and the tuners weren't as sensitive - and I was only receiving about 3/4 of the available Chicago transmissions.

Between that and the watering down of the HD, we have surely been going backwards with this.

(And that's not even counting that I'm getting less stations than I did in analog.)

This is BS.

Nah, this is good. The slightly lower power is a great thing; otherwise, they'd be broadcasting to the Quad Cities. :D As it is, your overall signal will go up a tad with this change. Especially since you are more than 40 miles out, and will eventually get interference with WMTV in Madison, when they quintuple their power on channel 19, eventually.

I don't know if it will for me, though - being 41 miles out and going through a bunch of trees.

I can't get WBBM or WLS at all lately. I never had this much trouble with VHF before.

You know, we do have a pretty high-powered "official, McHenry County radio station" FM transmitter not too far away. I wonder if that has anything to do with it? (I get awful reception for HD radio, too. I know it's very low-powered, but even at 41 miles, people tell me I should be receiving better.)

Yikes! Doug Lung over at tvtechnology.com just had an article about VHF interference from FM. If you don't have an FM trap and you're close to 105.5 FM's tower at the college, yikes-o-rama! You bet that'll cause problems. I have 5 within eyesight (106.3's blinking tower to my northwest, 89.5 and 90.5 FM west-northwest, 94.9 slightly south of west, 92.5 to my southeast), and all give me interference with 7-13 unless I turn the CM 7777's FM trap...

And oh, BTW, WGN hasn't done their antenna yet. Most had planned for this late summer or fall to do their upgrades on one or two nights.

WYIN is broadcasting four separate channels ... no reuse! There are two separate HD channels (D1 and D2) and two separate SD channels (D3 and D4). The HD channels are running just under 8 mbps each and the SD channels are running around 1 mbps. All four channels are 16x9. When I caught them last night all four were showing the same content, but they are different streams.

Yikes-o-yikes-o-rama. Is that what I was seeing last night? Wow. And I was going to say: I finally saw 56-4. I just have a 26" analog and my little Zenith DTT-900. 56-4's picture could be described as somewhere between a nightmare, a disaster, and a flat-out train wreck. I've seen much better on YouTube! Again, though, it looks like they're just testing...a static frame of weather could go on there with no problem,and it would be fine. But anything with motion, and prepare to see a completely jumbled mess.:eek:

Again, though, it looks like they're just testing...
I'd say "test failed". Crank the SDs up to 1.5 mbps or 2 mbps if they are going to be used for live video. The HDs can run at 7 mbps. Find something good to put on the channels (independent content ... no SD copies of HD).

And that seems to be the biggest challenge ... what to put on the subchannels. There are already two other PBSs in the market with PBS HD ... Create, V-Me and MHZ have homes. Titan TV seems to think that .2 will be Create, but that is a HD channel. Is Create available in HD?

A slate/info channel can be done on next to no bandwidth (such as WGVU/WGVK's 540 kbps "Info Channel"). Just enough to change the picture every few seconds instead of 30 times per second. That would also be a way to free up space to make .3 watchable without robbing from .1 or .2.

The only good thing I can say is that it is nice to see 16x9 SD channels. It would be nicer if the content was 16x9 and it wasn't just black pixels on the sides, but I like 16x9 channels.

And that seems to be the biggest challenge ... what to put on the subchannels.

For starters, they should stop trying to squeeze in an HD main channel and and an HD subchannel. Frankly, I'd rather see them just run one HD channel by itself - and go back to an all HD line-up like WTTW used to run on 11.1.

If they just must have a subchannel, then I'd still rather see an all HD line-up on 56.1 and the regular SD stuff on 56.2 (again, like it used to be back in the 11.1 / 11.2 days).

There's no need for a main channel and three subchannels (and we definitely do not need another weather / text / info subchannel).

Are there any Indoor Antennas that will get good reception from the Streamwood area? Rabbit Ears + Amplifier?

http://uhfhdtvantenna.blogspot.com/ :D

Make it with 10" bow ties and a 34"X28" reflector

Titan TV seems to think that .2 will be Create, but that is a HD channel. Is Create available in HD?Titan TV is still going by what used to be on 56.2 - and that was Create. They just took it off a couple of months ago.

However, 56.3 never had anything on it, let alone HD. I never even picked up the PSIP for it if it was in existence.

Create is not available anywhere in HD, as far as I know.

There's no need for a main channel and three subchannels (and we definitely do not need another weather / text / info subchannel).Yeah, I feel exactly the same way - but I think we're the minority around here now.

Didn't used to be that way. This thread used to be filled with people that felt that way (or maybe it was the "original" thread - this is at least the second one), but I think they just gave up and don't even bother posting to voice their feelings anymore.

Yikes! Doug Lung over at tvtechnology.com just had an article about VHF interference from FM. If you don't have an FM trap and you're close to 105.5 FM's tower at the college, yikes-o-rama! You bet that'll cause problems.I'm not really right on top of it - I'm 5 miles away from it. But it is pretty high-powered, and there's a good amount of open space between the college and the town. Since I don't have an amp on there right now, there's nothing to block it out.

(I guess using the rooftop antenna for FM radio is out then if I have to have the trap on all the time, right? Or will that not affect between 6 and 7?)

I'm not really right on top of it - I'm 5 miles away from it. But it is pretty high-powered, and there's a good amount of open space between the college and the town. Since I don't have an amp on there right now, there's nothing to block it out.

(I guess using the rooftop antenna for FM radio is out then if I have to have the trap on all the time, right? Or will that not affect between 6 and 7?)

WZSR's signal is pretty potent---it's a regular receive in Rochelle, IL, some 50 miles away to the southwest---not bad for a Class "A" FM. It's nulled to the south and east to protect a small station on the same frequency in Wilmington.

If you use an FM trap, then yeah, you can't use the antenna to receive stations. Most FM traps knock the signaldown by 20 dB. With two 50 kw class "B" stations nearby, a 20 kw class B within site of my house, and a 6 kw FM's blinking tower to my northwest...if I don't have an FM trap on, it's a mess. People in Dundee/Gilbert's have had lots of trouble with 103.9 interfering; that was one issue I learned about in my early years on this board. And that was interfering on UHF! I'd be interested to know if anyone can get WLS in the northwest 'burbs, or in areas close to a strong FM signal.

Yeah, I feel exactly the same way - but I think we're the minority around here now.

Didn't used to be that way. This thread used to be filled with people that felt that way (or maybe it was the "original" thread - this is at least the second one), but I think they just gave up and don't even bother posting to voice their feelings anymore.

Still very frustrated about subchannels. About the only thing I could do is quit giving WTTW money. Can't bitch about it forever. The plus side is that the crappy HD put out by the networks makes streaming Netflix and Amazon VOD look not too bad.

... the crappy HD put out by the networks ...

CBS via WBBM (and WBBM's local newscast) still looks excellent; unfortunately they seem to be the only one in the Chicago market where quality wins out over quantity.

WLS has filed for a digital translator on RF-7 contingent upon being granted the RF-44 facility:

https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101327455&formid=346&fac_num=73226

The power for the ``low power'' facility is 4.75 kW ERP. That's well above the 300 watt limit for such a digtal translator facility on VHF. Presuming this is not an error in the app, does it mean that WLS will effectively operate two full-power facilities in the market?

If so, and if granted, won't that give WLS an advantage over other Chicago broadcasters? Further, could it not set a precedent elsewhere with digital stations on UHF applying for what really are high power translators on VHF?

Not sure if this is old news for you guys. Sound like WLS wants to move back to UHF:

http://hdtvprofessor.com/HDTVAlmanac/?p=1016

Still very frustrated about subchannels. About the only thing I could do is quit giving WTTW money. Can't bitch about it forever.I really meant the "gave up" part in terms of all the other channels getting continually worse - not just WTTW, which happened so long ago that even I don't gripe about it anymore.

It just seems like either people don't say anything at all, or are just toally happy happy about it - one or the other - and that just puzzles me, because on the rest of the forum, people are complaining like crazy all the time (and I'm talking about both the straight OTA signal, along with the feed they get of it though their providers - which is generally the same. So it's not just that they're complaining because they all are paying for it, and the provider is whittling it down - it comes to them the same as we're getting OTA, so they have reason to complain the same way people who are getting it "for free" do).

Now, before anyone gets the idea that this is consuming me 24/7 so badly that it's ruining my life - it isn't. I'm just puzzled, compared to how it used to be here - that's all.

I sent WLS engineering an email a few months ago, complaining and asking what the heck happened to the PQ on 7.1. I knew the answer, but thought it would sound better coming from the "average joe" who did not know.

I never even got an answer, but I did at least voice my displeasure.

Not sure if this is old news for you guys. Sound like WLS wants to move back to UHF:

http://hdtvprofessor.com/HDTVAlmanac/?p=1016

It is old news.

I sent WLS engineering an email a few months ago, complaining and asking what the heck happened to the PQ on 7.1. I knew the answer, but thought it would sound better coming from the "average joe" who did not know.

I never even got an answer, but I did at least voice my displeasure.Yeah, I guess some people even got their ABC affiliates to switch Live Well to 480i widescreen. I don't know how they managed that. But apparently, at least some affiliates do care. Just not ours, I guess.

If nobody noticed WMAQ is now airing Syndicated HDTV Programs.. Ellen DeGeneres Show

Not sure if this is old news for you guys. Sound like WLS wants to move back to UHF:

http://hdtvprofessor.com/HDTVAlmanac/?p=1016Not only did we know, but we knew better. "Your source for Independent HDTV information from an industry expert you can trust" has bad information on that page:
"Note that UHF channels used to go up to channel 83, but the frequencies for channels 52 to 83 were auctioned off as part of the transition to digital broadcasts."70-83 went away for cellular telephone use long before the digital transition began.

His very incomplete station list of moving from VHF to UHF also includes WWAZ Fond du Lac ... which got permission to go the other way.

Morton doesn't make enough salt to take that site with. :)

Yeah, I guess some people even got their ABC affiliates to switch Live Well to 480i widescreen. I don't know how they managed that. But apparently, at least some affiliates do care. Just not ours, I guess.

One thing that I've noticed is that if I'd tune into 7-3 to see the local forecast (or tune in to see Jerry Taft laugh all the way through the forecast; anyone catch when that happened a couple weeks ago?; very funny!), I can see a lot of pixelation going on, especially when they show the radar in the local forecast part. I just think it'd be great to have a bit more juice going to 7-3, so it wouldn't be so pixelated to see the weather. Occasionally, now I'll watch 7-3 for the weather, but not as much as I used to when 7-2 wasn't HD.

It's pixellated, and also a lot blurrier than it was before. I used to check those weather channels out occasionally, but I haven't looked at them in ages and I've also blocked them out, because they just look so bad (even on my 32' analog).

Yeah, I guess some people even got their ABC affiliates to switch Live Well to 480i widescreen. I don't know how they managed that. But apparently, at least some affiliates do care. Just not ours, I guess.

None of the ABC stations have knocked down LiveWell HD to LiveWell Widescreen SD like they should. WJRT and WTVG never upgraded it to 720p in the first place. The other ABC O&Os have had it from day one and as far as I have been told, all are still doing it in HD.

- Trip

WBBM has applied to put a fill-in translator on channel 26.

- Trip

WBBM has applied to put a fill-in translator on channel 26.Good!  I gather the power will be low enough not to interfere with the other nearby RF26 signal coming from ... Madison, is it?

Yeah, I guess some people even got their ABC affiliates to switch Live Well to 480i widescreen. I don't know how they managed that. But apparently, at least some affiliates do care. Just not ours, I guess.We don't have an ABC affiliate.  We have, for better or worse, an O&O.

WLS has filed for a digital translator on RF-7 contingent upon being granted the RF-44 facilityFun.  I hope one or the other PSIPs its channels to 7.4, 7.5, and 7.6, because having two 7.1's, two 7.2's, and two 7.3's will confuse a lot of tuners and a lot of viewers.

Good!* I gather the power will be low enough not to interfere with the other nearby RF26 signal coming from ... Madison, is it?

It's 15 kW, but directional to protect WKOW.

- Trip

It's 15 kW, but directional to protect WKOW.

- Trip

Yeah, but WKOW will stomp all over 26 in the western and northwest burbs in tropo. I get them with an attic antenna in DeKalb every day, with or without tropo. At 800 KW, WKOW-DT is a blowtorch and when WCIU analog 26 signed off and WKOW went 800 KW last month, people in downtown Chicago started getting them every now and then. Then again, at this stage of the game, they have little choice. That's probably their best option.

I'd like to see Chicago become the largest all-UHF market and have WBBM just petition to move up to a UHF channel like WLS did. I have to think there is a channel available for them. My guess is that the clearest channel is 39. (sorry hvs10trk!)

- Trip

It's 15 kW, but directional to protect WKOW.Thanks.  Now I wonder how far northwest it will reach, but if it doesn't get here, VHF12 does, so I suppose we'll be OK.

Thanks.* Now I wonder how far northwest it will reach, but if it doesn't get here, VHF12 does, so I suppose we'll be OK.

Considering that only 12%-15% of the signal will head northwest, north and northeast by area, you're looking at about 1,500 watts. IOW, it will be less power than WWME is on 39 by nearly 40%. One of my friends read this and angrily grumbled: "Now WBBM will have TWO signals nobody can get!". If they had 200 kw on channel 20 with a slight null northwest, or go to 39 will a slight null to the northeast, they'd be fine, and out of respect for Weigel, they should go to 20. This way, they would not only be seen everywhere, BUT also be ready for mobile TV. WLS and WPWR will be the best positioned for it.

In saying this, I am not blaming WBBM and WLS for this; it wasn't their call to go to VHF. I squarely blame the FCC for this one for not giving them enough power. AVS Forum user Foxeng in the DTV channel change thread has consistently found VHF stations come in a whopping 10 dB lower than their UHF counterparts, on average, in markets that have full power VHF's. That means to bring them up to par, you'd have to at least quadruple to quintuple the power they have now. If WBBM and WLS had 35 kw on their current channels, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. When WWTO-DT 10 LaSalle goes to 80 kw at 1400' late this year, you'll pick them up in Timbuktu.

OK, I finally bought an antenna got it connected and getting signals, even channel 2-7 at times ( im less worried about these 2 atm) that being said my signal is about 60-70 in strength.

NOW I have used some old RG-59 that I had laying around to connect this antenna should I swap that out for say quad shield RG-6? Sorry for the ignorance here on this I just never really messed with antennas and what not.

Are 56.1 through 56.4 supposed to be in 1080i or 720p?  For a while this morning I could get them intermittently (I usually do not receive WYIN at all) on two sets: one is an analog unit with a CECB on it and the other is a 4:3 SDTV.  Both allowed selecting the aspect on all four WYIN subchannels, indicating an HD signal (of upconverted content in this case but an HD transmission nonetheless), but neither displays the resolution.  The two units I have that will tell you whether an HD signal is in 720p or 1080i couldn't receive the WYIN signal where they are.

NOW I have used some old RG-59 that I had laying around to connect this antenna should I swap that out for say quad shield RG-6? Sorry for the ignorance here on this I just never really messed with antennas and what not.

Yes, if the cable is old and/or RG-59, it should be replaced with fresh cable. That may make a good deal of difference......

Speaking of regressing, noticed that WFLD brought in the blue sidebars with the station logo on both sides of their local feed. Doesn't look like they're going to debut the Office reruns in true HD - which is a shame, because I've seen them do the 5:55 weather update in 16:9 on a few occasions, yet now they've reverted back to letterbox even on that. Does it really cost them that much more money to pull the HD switch outside of network programming or news?

Are 56.1 through 56.4 supposed to be in 1080i or 720p?* For a while this morning I could get them intermittently (I usually do not receive WYIN at all) on two sets: one is an analog unit with a CECB on it and the other is a 4:3 SDTV.* Both allowed selecting the aspect on all four WYIN subchannels, indicating an HD signal (of upconverted content in this case but an HD transmission nonetheless), but neither displays the resolution.* The two units I have that will tell you whether an HD signal is in 720p or 1080i couldn't receive the WYIN signal where they are.

56 HD shows as 720P, 56 SD shows as 480i on my Sharp Aquos 1080p.

Speaking of regressing,

Digital HD would have been really nice if they passed a law of no multicasting and only HD content. But instead some of it looks worse than the old analog sd did.

Digital HD would have been really nice if they passed a law of no multicasting and only HD content. But instead some of it looks worse than the old analog sd did.
I don't know about a law but some standards would be nice. The only standard out there for digital regulates the resolution and not bitrate. :( On that note, who ever approved the 14:9 picture? I hate watching those shows that are almost widescreen.

The thing about WFLD is that with their newscast in HD, I know they have the capability to transmit their local feed in that way, yet everything except the network feed and the news broadcasts themselves are now relegated to letterbox. I thought we had gotten over colored logo sidebars since the old WBBM days... It would have been nice to see some of the syndicated shows on both WFLD and WPWR in their original/ideal format.

56 HD shows as 720P, 56 SD shows as 480i on my Sharp Aquos 1080p.Thank you.  None were in 480i when I was briefly able to receive them this morning.

Considering that only 12%-15% of the signal will head northwest, north and northeast by area, you're looking at about 1,500 watts. IOW, it will be less power than WWME is on 39 by nearly 40%. One of my friends read this and angrily grumbled: "Now WBBM will have TWO signals nobody can get!". If they had 200 kw on channel 20 with a slight null northwest, or go to 39 will a slight null to the northeast, they'd be fine, and out of respect for Weigel, they should go to 20. This way, they would not only be seen everywhere, BUT also be ready for mobile TV. WLS and WPWR will be the best positioned for it.

In saying this, I am not blaming WBBM and WLS for this; it wasn't their call to go to VHF. I squarely blame the FCC for this one for not giving them enough power. AVS Forum user Foxeng in the DTV channel change thread has consistently found VHF stations come in a whopping 10 dB lower than their UHF counterparts, on average, in markets that have full power VHF's. That means to bring them up to par, you'd have to at least quadruple to quintuple the power they have now. If WBBM and WLS had 35 kw on their current channels, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. When WWTO-DT 10 LaSalle goes to 80 kw at 1400' late this year, you'll pick them up in Timbuktu.

I saw the FCC map for the WBBM translator on 26. It has similar coverage to WMEU's application on 32. There is a null to the north and northwest, but the blue line made it up to about Mundelein. With the exception of improving coverage in the city proper, I don't think this will help their signal issues much. If this was a stand alone LD, the coverage is actually decent, but in this case it won't help much. Like mentioned if they could go to either 20 or 39, they would be fine. Now I don't know if this would be allowed, but could WBBM make a deal with another broadcaster like WYCC or WJYS where WBBM would get the UHF frequency and the other broadcaster would get the Ch. 12 signal, basically just swap frequencies. It would improve WBBM's signal, and a small broadcaster like WYCC or WJYS probably wouldn't mind a reduced electric bill.

Thank you.* None were in 480i when I was briefly able to receive them this morning.

I just took these 1 & 2 are 720p 3 & 4 are 480i 3 & 4 are 4 side letterbox 1 & 2 are letter box in HD go figure.

Sorry for the shaky camera image I was trying to keep the display up there (5 sec timeout) and take a picture without the flash at the same time.

"If they had 200 kw on channel 20 with a slight null northwest, or go to 39 will a slight null to the northeast, they'd be fine, and out of respect for Weigel, they should go to 20."


20 would be best and that wouldn't force Weigel to move. Since 39 is basically wide open as well, I'm surprised Weigel has not gone to 15 KW for WWME.

20 might not even work. Spacing to WHA and WOTV might be problematic.

In all honesty, I don't think the WWME-LD 39 allocation gets protection, only the WWME-CA 23 analog does. I would have to think they'll want to flash-cut that facility at some point, as 23 is also an attractive channel option.

- Trip

I saw the FCC map for the WBBM translator on 26. It has similar coverage to WMEU's application on 32.How does one find those maps?

1 & 2 are 720p 3 & 4 are 480iStill a puzzle why both tuners treated 56.3 and 56.4 like HD signals, then.  Maybe some day they'll come in again and I'll see how they behave at that time.

Still a puzzle why both tuners treated 56.3 and 56.4 like HD signals, then.* Maybe some day they'll come in again and I'll see how they behave at that time.
Your tuner may be confused by the poor signal.

You're not confusing 16x9 with HD are you? .3 and .4 are both 640x480i 16x9 feeds. 4x3 programs are letterboxed just like on the HD feeds. .1 and .2 are both 1280x720p 16x9 feeds.

Your tuner may be confused by the poor signal.I was just thinking the same thing.

You're not confusing 16x9 with HD are you?No, I thought not, but maybe I am after all, just at a different point in the reasoning.  My logic was that both tuners (one is a CECB feeding an NTSC TV; the other is a 4:3 SDTV CRT) allowed me to change the aspect ratio on 56.3 and 56.4, whereas on SD material they do not.

But the way you put it, I get the feeling that widescreen SD is not the same as a 16x9 image letterboxed across the middle of a 4x3 screen at SD resolution, but something else with different flags in the sideband data.  They would look the same to the viewer, and it's likely I've never run into actual widescreen SD before.

If the two tuners allow selecting the aspect ratio for widescreen SD as they do for HD, then that would explain it.

Yes, there is a flag in the datastream that says whether a stream is 4:3 or 16:9. Even HD feeds have this flag, though it's always set to 16:9.

- Trip

Thanks, then, JaL and Trip.  It didn't occur to me that a 16x9 image in an SD signal would be anything other than ordinary letterboxing.  The two tuners must allow changing the aspect on any widescreen transmission, whether SD or HD.

Thanks, then, JaL and Trip.* It didn't occur to me that a 16x9 image in an SD signal would be anything other than ordinary letterboxing.* The two tuners must allow changing the aspect on any widescreen transmission, whether SD or HD.Hopefully the tuners are looking at the aspect ratio (16x9) and ignoring the HD vs SD bit.

All of my tuners can change the display aspect on either aspect ratio input and on HD and SD feeds. A couple of them have different choices for 16x9 than 4x3. (Generally, a 16x9 input on a 4x3 display can be letterboxed turning an image with side bars into a postage stamp or zoomed cropping off the side bars, a 4x3 input on a 4x3 display may not be able to be manipulated. But this is based on the aspect rations, not the HD/SD of the signal.)

Widescreen SD can be good for radar channels and local news/weather channels ... even SD network feeds (although I have not seen one yet ... but I have only looked at four markets).

How does one find those maps?

Here's the map for WBBM on 26

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=LD1328049.html

To get to these, on the FCC website click search, then TV station query and you can search by call letters, city, and even latitude & longitude.

Here's the map for WBBM on 26

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=LD1328049.html
Thank you, but ...To get to these, on the FCC website click search, then TV station query and you can search by call letters, city, and even latitude & longitude.

Thank you again; it would have been impossible to figure out how to get there just by guessing one's way around fcc.gov, especially considering that the front page's Search box (which is of no help for this) is far more prominent than the tiny, poor-contrast word "Search" under the banner.

Digital HD would have been really nice if they passed a law of no multicasting and only HD content. But instead some of it looks worse than the old analog sd did.

I want the most amount of viewing choices possible. Picture quality is important, and I don't want to feel like I am watching a youtube video on my HD plasma. But I would not sacrifice subchannels with good content just to make the main channel have better picture quality.

Think about it, if there were no subchannels, what viewing choices would you have in the middle of the day? Two soaps, one court tv, a cooking show on PBS, and a talkshow? Compare that with what you get with subchannels. For example, with WCIU you would go from only having a court tv show with 1 channel, to having 3 more choices of 2 classic shows and a movie. You would go from 1 choice to 4 quality choices.

The question we should ask is how can we take those 4 subchannels and improve the picture quality on each subchannel?

Think about it, if there were no subchannels, what viewing choices would you have in the middle of the day?For 87.6% of Chicago TV households, they would have whatever else is on their cable/satellite subscription. :) (source (http://www.tvb.org/rcentral/markettrack/archivebymarket.asp?marketid=38))

For example, with WCIU you would go from only having a court tv show with 1 channel, to having 3 more choices of 2 classic shows and a movie.Two of WCIU's five active sub channels are also broadcast channels (albeit low power) in their own right. Sub channels DO bring new content to the marketplace, WCIU's 26.6 Chicago Ethnic TV gets a better distribution because it can be carried along side of the other channels instead of competing for channel space. (And a "free" OTA broadcast bypasses negotiation for carriage on multiple cable systems.)

And it makes me wonder "What's up with THAT?" Seven more channels that could be niche channels that wouldn't see free distribution without subchannels.

The question we should ask is how can we take those 4 subchannels and improve the picture quality on each subchannel?Reduce the bandwidth on 26.1? 10 mbps is a lot. WBBM is using less bandwidth for their 1080i feed with no subchannels.

WBBM is stat muxing. You caught it during a static image when the stat muxer pulled a lot of bandwidth out of it. I bet if you caught it during a football game, it'd be using a lot more.

- Trip

WBBM is stat muxing. You caught it during a static image when the stat muxer pulled a lot of bandwidth out of it. I bet if you caught it during a football game, it'd be using a lot more.

- TripCould be - but there are still plenty of artifacts on WBBM during closeups on Football games.

I want the most amount of viewing choices possible......I would not sacrifice subchannels with good content just to make the main channel have better picture quality......The question we should ask is how can we take those 4 subchannels and improve the picture quality on each subchannel?Don't know, but perhaps it would be more appropriately discussed here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1071664

My dtv receivers only get 2.1 and no other sub channels. Does WBBM do stat muxing to hide something on their channel?

For 87.6% of Chicago TV households, they would have whatever else is on their cable/satellite subscription. :) (source (http://www.tvb.org/rcentral/markettrack/archivebymarket.asp?marketid=38))

Broadcast television is not a feeder for cable or pay television. Broadcast television is for public enjoyment, and that means more viewing choices.

Broadcast television is not a feeder for cable or pay television. Broadcast television is for public enjoyment, and that means more viewing choices.My point being that 87.6% of Chicago TV Households already have many more choices than they can receive OTA ... their viewing options are not limited to one channel per licensed broadcast station.

It is unfortunate for broadcasters that all that does get to most cable/satellite systems is one of their channel feeds. Many who have cable wouldn't bother with OTA and sub channels are not being delivered to those TV Households. Those with satellite may be watching the OTA sub channels as both companies "HD" satellite receivers also include OTA tuners and mix OTA with the subscription service. OTA provides an alternate method for delivery to the TV Households. There are easier ways of feeding cable systems - it is getting the content to the viewer that I was talking about.

But back to the point of what I was saying, 87.6% of Chicago TV Households have other options easily available without sub channels. As long as they are engineered well I have no problem with OTA stations providing additional content, but sub channels are not the only way of getting content to TV Households.

My dtv receivers only get 2.1 and no other sub channels. Does WBBM do stat muxing to hide something on their channel?

No, CBS just bought new encoders a little while back, and whatever they bought has variable bitrates.

- Trip

Last night I saw two new digital stations. They are WCHU (61.1) and WLFM (61.2). Both map to channel 44.

Last night I saw two new digital stations. They are WCHU (61.1) and WLFM (61.2). Both map to channel 44.

Sebenste had posted a long time ago that WCHU was getting RF44 for its digital signal.  Soon WLS will be bumping them somewhere else, maybe to do a flash-cut on 6.

My dtv receivers only get 2.1 and no other sub channels. Does WBBM do stat muxing to hide something on their channel?


WBBM does not have any additional sub-channels - that's why you don't see any.

They aren't hiding anything!

Sebenste had posted a long time ago that WCHU was getting RF44 for its digital signal.* Soon WLS will be bumping them somewhere else, maybe to do a flash-cut on 6.

I just got home from work and I tried channel 44 on my ChannelMaster 4228 8-bay UHF on my Zenith DTT-900, all in my attic. It breaks up constantly, as I am right on the edge of reception, which is not surprising....especially since it's raining pretty good here. 44 will need to apply for another digital channel---fast---because WLS will likely occupy that channel in months. I really don't know what channel is open. Let's see:

16 - WTVO-DT Rockford...can't interfere with that.
17 - WYIN-DT
18 - The CW in Milwaukee...can't interfere with that or soon(?) to be WSPY-LD in Plano.
19 - WGN-DT
20 - Polnet in Schaumburg will have an LD here soon
21 - WYCC-DT
22 - WVCY Milwaukee, and Polent has another CP for this too; and WSBT-DT South Bend
23 - WMME-CA analog
24 - WPVN-CA Aurora
25 - W25BR Chicago: Home shopping, getting kicked off anyway due to interference with Milwaukee
26 - WBBM-LD, soon-to-be
27 - WCIU-DT
28 - WTMJ-DT Milwaukee and WSJV South Bend
29 - WMAQ-DT
30 - WSPY-CA Plano
31 - WFLD-DT
32 - Hopefully soon-to-be WMEU-LD
33 - WITI Milwaukee
34 - WEDE-CA and soon to be WEDE-LD
35 - WMVT-DT Milwaukee
36 - WJYS-DT
38 - WGBO-DT
39 - WWME-LD
40 - Waubonsee College, Sugar Grove + blowtorch WPXN-DT PAX Milwaukee
41 - WOCH-CA analog (Korean)
42 - WQRF-DT Rockford, WNDU-DT South Bend
43 - WCPX PAX Chicago
44 - Relatively soon-to-be WLS-DT
45 - WSNS-DT
46 - WDJT-DT Milwaukee and WHME-DT South Bend
47 - WTTW-DT
48 - WMEU-CA analog
49 - WOCH-LD
50 - WXFT-DT
51 - WPWR-DT

VHF-HI...300 watts on channel 9 or 11...do we want to go there? :eek:

Also, Venture Technologies, who own WCHU, got a permit only 4 days ago to sign it on using a 6 month special temporary authority application from the FCC:

https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=779602&formid=911&q_num=5210

And you can see their coverage area. Big null to the east, of course, to protect channel 44 in Grand Rapids,
and slight one to the west, I believe, for a station which is no longer on the air.

50 is WXFT, no go.

- Trip

50 is WXFT, no go.

- Trip

D'oh! Fixed that, thanks. Yep, 44 was the last major open option. Even at 11.6 kw with a slight null, I am locking WCHU out here.

Sebenste had posted a long time ago that WCHU was getting RF44 for its digital signal.* Soon WLS will be bumping them somewhere else, maybe to do a flash-cut on 6.

I doubt that they'll switch 6 to digital since they're really just using it to act like a radio station on 87.7FM (and it seems like they're getting advertisers now so they may actually be able to make it profitable).

I don't see why they'd want to give that up unless there's some way to squeeze a lower bandwidth digital signal *and* analog audio into the channel 6 allocation? Is that even possible?

Last night I saw two new digital stations. They are WCHU (61.1) and WLFM (61.2). Both map to channel 44.

I can pick up RF44/61.1/61.2 no problem here on three different tuners (about 75-80% signal strength).

BUT only the tuner in my year-old Samsung TV gets any audio. Neither of my older stand-alone HDTV tuners pick up any sound. Both of these and the TV itself list a single audio stream captioned as "English"

What is it with these ethnic stations and DTV audio?

I can pick up RF44/61.1/61.2 no problem here on three different tuners (about 75-80% signal strength).

BUT only the tuner in my year-old Samsung TV gets any audio. Neither of my older stand-alone HDTV tuners pick up any sound. Both of these and the TV itself list a single audio stream captioned as "English"

What is it with these ethnic stations and DTV audio?

Good! I thought my DTT-900 tuner was wacky. I am getting no audio on them, either. Now that the sun has set and the noise floor has dropped, WCHU-LD is a hard lock at about 9-10 kw in my direction for me.

WBBM does not have any additional sub-channels - that's why you don't see any.

They aren't hiding anything!Trip said they had stat mux which seemed peculiar if they only have one stream. But some stations have hidden streams which might require stat mux. For example, one station uses a hidden pid to send newscasts for insertion on another station in a different market. Another example, mobile DTV uses pids that ordinary digital receivers or set-top-boxes would ignore. And aren't there some audio-only "radio stations" on a few digital television stations? These are what I meant by "hidden streams" that would benefit from a stat mux. I believe the technical term would be "conditional access" where you need "authorization" to decode that particular pid stream. But if WBBM doesn't have any, using a stat mux has no benefit.

My Zenith DTT901 is picking up RF44's channels with no audio either, but other tuners (if they're receiving it where they are) are getting it with audio.  If I feel ambitious some time over the next few days I'll swap CECBs and see if it's the DTT901 or the signal.  The same DTT901 is getting audio on all other local ATSC stations that it receives.  At first I thought it was the wrong language selection but neither 61.1 nor 61.2 offers any alternative languages.

As for a permanent DTV channel, can't they flash-cut on 6?

As for a permanent DTV channel, can't they flash-cut on 6?

They could, but the signal would get out about as well as channel 4...ie, about to Midway airport and that's it.

......I really don't know what channel is open. Let's see:

16 - WTVO-DT Rockford...can't interfere with that.
17 - WYIN-DT
........

great list, sebenste....its very useful to see it this way....thanks!

but....what happened to uhf channels 14 and 15? are they now 'out of band' or not available for some other reason? i think i remember something about taxi cab radios, etc being on the uhf ch 14 and 15 freqs?

I just got home from work and I tried channel 44 on my ChannelMaster 4228 8-bay UHF on my Zenith DTT-900, all in my attic. It breaks up constantly, as I am right on the edge of reception, which is not surprising....especially since it's raining pretty good here. 44 will need to apply for another digital channel---fast---because WLS will likely occupy that channel in months. I really don't know what channel is open. Let's see:

16 - WTVO-DT Rockford...can't interfere with that.
17 - WYIN-DT
18 - The CW in Milwaukee...can't interfere with that or soon(?) to be WSPY-LD in Plano.
19 - WGN-DT
20 - Polnet in Schaumburg will have an LD here soon
21 - WYCC-DT
22 - WVCY Milwaukee, and Polent has another CP for this too
23 - WMME-CA analog
24 - WPVN-CA Aurora
25 - W25BR Chicago: Home shopping, getting kicked off anyway due to interference with Milwaukee
26 - WBBM-LD, soon-to-be
27 - WCIU-DT
28 - WTMJ-DT Milwaukee and WSJV South Bend
29 - WMAQ-DT
30 - WSPY-CA Plano
31 - WFLD-DT
32 - Hopefully soon-to-be WMEU-LD
33 - WITI Milwaukee
34 - WEDE-CA and soon to be WEDE-LD
35 - WMVT-DT Milwaukee
36 - WJYS-DT
38 - WGBO-DT
39 - WWME-LD
40 - Waubonsee College, Sugar Grove + blowtorch WPXN-DT PAX Milwaukee
41 - WOCH-CA analog (Korean)
42 - WQRF-DT Rockford
43 - WCPX PAX Chicago
44 - Relatively soon-to-be WLS-DT
45 - WSNS-DT
46 - WDJT-DT Milwaukee and WHME-DT South Bend
47 - WTTW-DT
48 - WMEU-CA analog
49 - WOCH-LD
50 - WXFT-DT
51 - WPWR-DT

VHF-HI...300 watts on channel 9 or 11...do we want to go there? :eek:

Also, Venture Technologies, who own WCHU, got a permit only 4 days ago to sign it on using a 6 month special temporary authority application from the FCC:

https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=779602&formid=911&q_num=5210

And you can see their coverage area. Big null to the east, of course, to protect channel 44 in Grand Rapids,
and slight one to the west, I believe, for a station which is no longer on the air.

You forgot a couple, 22 WSBT South Bend. That power monster from the east, and 42 WNDU SB.

great list, sebenste....its very useful to see it this way....thanks!

but....what happened to uhf channels 14 and 15? are they now 'out of band' or not available for some other reason? i think i remember something about taxi cab radios, etc being on the uhf ch 14 and 15 freqs?

14 and 15 are used for police and emergency communications in large cities like ours. There's a ban on any station from broadcasting on those channels within 100 or something like that miles from Chicago.

You forgot a couple, 22 WSBT South Bend. That power monster from the east, and 42 WNDU SB.

Yes, indeed. Thanks tvropro! Edited post above.

Yes, indeed. Thanks tvropro! Edited post above.An even bigger problem for Channel 30 than WSPY-CA may be Trinity Broadcasting's CP for W57DN although it technically expires in a week.

My friend and I just ran some interference analyses for potential WBBM channels. I ran it assuming WCPX's antenna and height but at 300 kW. I checked channel 30 assuming WSPY could be paid off, but it's too problematic to WMBD in Peoria.

I ran channel 39 and it almost works. It causes 0.6% interference to WAOE-39, which is just above 0.5%, I can't imagine an interference agreement not coming out of it. The bigger problem is the 5.7% interference to WPXE-40. However, it's all on the Illinois side of the state line in WCPX's coverage area, so maybe they could hammer out an interference agreement. Who knows.

I didn't try anything else.

- Trip

For example, one station uses a hidden pid to send newscasts for insertion on another station in a different market. Another example, mobile DTV uses pids that ordinary digital receivers or set-top-boxes would ignore.
Trip has the TSReader output for the station and understands it better than the guy who captured that particular TSReader output. :)

WPWR is a good example of hidden channels. They have 50.1 as a public 1280x720p HD feed, but also have a SD feed of the same programming in 4:3 (with no logo) and an active MobileTV feed. WBBM has their public 1920x1080i HD feed with a SAP channel and TVGOS data and no other hidden PIDs.

(It would be interesting to find out what WPWR is doing with their hidden feed.)

As far as I know, most of the CBS O&O stations got new encoders that stat mux but don't actually have anything else in the stream to dedicate it to. I imagine they just wanted better encoders or maybe got something that'll be more compatible with Mobile DTV should that turn out well. I'm really not sure.

- Trip

I'm getting WCHU about 35 mi SE of Chicago (between the blue and green line on that attached map) with a strength of 10 out of 10 on my Samsung LCD, the lowest it went to was 8 out of 10. The audio is fine on it.

They could, but the signal would get out about as well as channel 4...ie, about to Midway airport and that's it.

I thought the biggest problem was WOCK's severely directional signal. Once they go omnidirectional which I see now is listed as a CP and not an APP, shouldn't the signal improve? I know Venture is also trying to go omnidirectional on analog 6 to improve coverage to the north. Unfortunately, it's starting to look like 9 and 11 are the best options for WCHU, and WLFM "could" flash cut to 6, but they are basically operating as a radio station and doing pretty good with that so they might want to stay analog as long as possible.

You forgot a couple, 22 WSBT South Bend. That power monster from the east, and 42 WNDU SB.

Also, Lesea has translators for WHME South Bend on 18 in Gary and 24 in Valparaiso with digital flash cut CP's.

Was only able to lock WCHU-LD after dark yesterday, and it is very weak at best in Arl Hts. Wonder if it's due to a NW null.

Some questions about WBBM's app for a channel 26 translator at Big Willie:

Why do the FCC database, the map in WBBM's app, and the text of WBBM's app, seem to show the same pattern but in different directions (null East [Lake Michigan, most logical], null North, and null South respectively)?

I'm surprised that they would not interfere with WCCU, though the app says they will not.

However, won't they have a big problem with interference from WCCU, a blowtorch I recently caught in Manistique, MI, 400 miles away?

One more thought about the Chicago VHF woes:

Would it help the VHFs to move their facilities off of Willis Tower, and onto a shorter skyscraper at the edge of The Loop (in the words of Bob Barker, as close to 1000 feet - without going over) where they could greatly increase their power, resulting in the same theoretical coverage, but putting much more RF into the city proper?

Some questions about WBBM's app for a channel 26 translator at Big Willie:

Why do the FCC database, the map in WBBM's app, and the text of WBBM's app, seem to show the same pattern but in different directions (null East [Lake Michigan, most logical], null North, and null South respectively)?

Where are you seeing this? I see it as aimed toward 185 degrees in all places. It has to be aimed that way to protect both WKOW and WCGV I would guess.

I'm surprised that they would not interfere with WCCU, though the app says they will not.

However, won't they have a big problem with interference from WCCU, a blowtorch I recently caught in Manistique, MI, 400 miles away?

The FCC does not allow tropo to be used as a reason for dismissing things.

- Trip

Been reading all the posts here concerning no place to put channels without interference. I guess it's time to scrap the whole ATSC MPEG 2 standard and use a more efficient codec with MPEG 4. That way they could bunch all the network channels together and multicast on one frequency. I guess using an antiquated system that was designed in the 90's is typical of how thing s work with OTA in this country. Just like how far NTSC was behind the times.

Could you imagine the chaos if they said all the tv's, converter boxes and transmitters need to be replaced again :eek:

Trip said they had stat mux which seemed peculiar if they only have one stream. But some stations have hidden streams which might require stat mux. .... But if WBBM doesn't have any, using a stat mux has no benefit.A lower bitrate saves DVR space.

As far as I know, most of the CBS O&O stations got new encoders that stat mux but don't actually have anything else in the stream to dedicate it to. I imagine they just wanted better encoders or maybe got something that'll be more compatible with Mobile DTV should that turn out well. I'm really not sure.CBS went with Harris, which is a co-developer of the Mobile TV standard (also known as ATSC-M/H (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATSC_M/H), for those out of the loop). ATSC-M/H is pretty much a CBR stream, that can only be sent in 917 kbps chunks. Three of them will be needed to produce a high-quality picture in complex motion scenes. By my latest calculations, once a Mobile TV stream is taken into account, a subchannel-free HD feed is limited to 15.7 Mbps of video bitrate.

Would it help the VHFs to move their facilities off of Willis Tower, and onto a shorter skyscraper at the edge of The Loop (in the words of Bob Barker, as close to 1000 feet - without going over) where they could greatly increase their power, resulting in the same theoretical coverage, but putting much more RF into the city proper?It might also increase multipath issues, especially in urban environments. VHF multipath is quite possible, and, compared to UHF multipath, is especially difficult to get rid of.

The Zenith DTT901 and Digital Stream DTX9950 CECBs can't interpret the audio of WCHU's DT signal, and both 61.1 and 61.2 are silent.  Our TVs with ATSC tuners and the other two CECBs (a Magnavox TB100MG9 and a Zinwell ZAT-970A release 0830) can manage the audio as well as the video for those two channels.

That makes WLFM on 61.2 a silent radio station for anyone with either of those CECB models.

Trip has the TSReader output for the station and understands it better than the guy who captured that particular TSReader output. :)

WPWR is a good example of hidden channels. They have 50.1 as a public 1280x720p HD feed, but also have a SD feed of the same programming in 4:3 (with no logo) and an active MobileTV feed. WBBM has their public 1920x1080i HD feed with a SAP channel and TVGOS data and no other hidden PIDs.

(It would be interesting to find out what WPWR is doing with their hidden feed.)

If the WPWR SD feed is hidden, how did you detect it? Can it be tuned with a regular tuner?

Where are you seeing this? I see it as aimed toward 185 degrees in all places. It has to be aimed that way to protect both WKOW and WCGV I would guess.



The FCC does not allow tropo to be used as a reason for dismissing things.

- Trip

FCC coverage map:
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DS594102.html

(I agree that it is actually beamed South, that two of the three sites just applied the wrong pattern rotation).

Tropo: True, but maybe a good reason for CBS to dismiss it :-)

WHOA!! just went to the FCC website again - clicking on the link for the proposed ch 26 translator incorrectly brings up the channel 3 coverage map!! (my browser may actually be at fault for this one)

That is one of the channel 3 maps. And I'm seeing a link to the correct channel 26 map under channel 26.

- Trip

If the WPWR SD feed is hidden, how did you detect it? Can it be tuned with a regular tuner?

I used elven magic. :) Naw, just some special software that reads the stream directly and shows how the bandwidth is used. Tuners use this information as well to know what channels are there and how to display them. There isn't channel information pointing at WPWR's hidden SD feed so a regular tuner wouldn't find it. It would take a tuner that ignored the channel information.

As far as I know, most of the CBS O&O stations got new encoders that stat mux but don't actually have anything else in the stream to dedicate it to. I imagine they just wanted better encoders or maybe got something that'll be more compatible with Mobile DTV should that turn out well. I'm really not sure.- TripAll I know is that both WBBM and WIFR look terrible the last couple of months or so. They lack the detail they used to have, show more artifacts (at least WIFR seemed to last night), and have some excessive edge-enhancement applied to them. FOX had the same problem a couple of months back when they got new encoders - they apparently were set to default that way (the problem was consistent nationwide - many of the dramas were looking "cartoonish"). There was a big uproar in the Programming forum here, and people were contacting the stations left and right about it, and they finally adjusted it.

Now that I know CBS has added new encoders, too, that might explain what I've been seeing. I'm just surprised there hasn't been any talk of it over in those forums here - other that I suppose that no one's been watching that channel much (especially during rerun season).

I don't know, but both WBBM and WIFR look terrible the last couple of months or so. They lack the detail they used to have, show more artifacts, and have some excessive edge-enhancement applied to them ... Now that I know CBS has added new encoders, too, that explains what I've been seeing. I'm just surprised there hasn't been any talk of it over in those forums here - other that I suppose that no one watches that channel much. ... Perhaps someone here could use some of their "connections", and at least get WBBM to adjust their settings.It might not be just WBBM. I know that CBS has been switching over to a new DVB-S2 distribution system that includes new Harris NetVX encoders. If both WIFR and WBBM went south at the same time, that might explain things -- it would then be a problem at CBS's end.

Ramm, you say that you noticed a reduction in picture quality of WIFR and WBBM at about the same time? How close together did they go south? Within a couple of days, or sooner? Later?

It might not be just WBBM. I know that CBS has been switching over to a new DVB-S2 distribution system that includes new Harris NetVX encoders. If both WIFR and WBBM went south at the same time, that might explain things -- it would then be a problem at CBS's end.

Ramm, you say that you noticed a reduction in picture quality of WIFR and WBBM at about the same time? How close together did they go south? Within a couple of days, or sooner? Later?I just really took notice of it tonight on the Bears game on WIFR (I usually don't watch CBS all that much anyway, and that's why it took me this long to notice it on that station, too. But I first noticed it on WBBM at least a couple of months back, which would jibe with what Trip said about when they changed over. Come to think of it, though, I think I did notice it on some of the same programs on WIFR when I flipped by starting at around the same time. I just didn't register it in my brain very well at the time).

That would make sense that it's the network, though.

Has anyone experienced withdrawal symptoms when switching from cable/satellite to OTA? I'll admit I'm spoiled watching just about everything in HD via Comcast cable. But every so often I look at my cable bill & think why am I spending so much money just to watch TV?

I've considered satellite, but the pricing is not much different than cable depending on what kind of promo someone is offering, at least for the channels I watch. So I frequently think about going OTA and using Hulu, etc for at least some cable programs that I might miss.

Has anyone here dropped cable/satellite & gone OTA and regretted doing it and missing all the channels you used to get? Has the Internet really helped fill in missing programming?

If it's cable, at least you could try doing without for awhile with no major consequences, like if you had a commitment to deal with.

That would make sense that it's the network, though.Well, one thing to note is that WIFR isn't owned by CBS, yet you saw local coverage with the problems. I don't know if WIFR installed a NetVX like WBBM and CBS in NY did, but if they did, it might explain the edge enhancement problems of WIFR's local broadcast.

That said, try to catch some network programming from WIFR tomorrow, and see if you notice the same problems that have plagued WBBM. I recommend the golf coverage; CBS is renowned for excellent high-motion and low-motion scenes in their coverage.

I've posted a topic on the HDTV Programming forum about CBS's EE:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1173241

Trip has the TSReader output for the station and understands it better than the guy who captured that particular TSReader output. :)

WPWR is a good example of hidden channels. They have 50.1 as a public 1280x720p HD feed, but also have a SD feed of the same programming in 4:3 (with no logo) and an active MobileTV feed. WBBM has their public 1920x1080i HD feed with a SAP channel and TVGOS data and no other hidden PIDs.

(It would be interesting to find out what WPWR is doing with their hidden feed.)Stations mainly employ the stat mux to apportion more bits to the stream needing it the most (i.e., for fast motion during sporting events, or strobe-light effects, or maybe confetti effects) as opposed to improving storage in viewers' DVRs. But in a case where the 2nd stream is a simulcast, both streams would be needing more bits at exactly the same time. So, maybe using time-delay on the 2nd stream could be employed to allow stat muxing to help in that case. (This is one trick in a multi-pass encoder.)

Stations mainly employ the stat mux to apportion more bits to the stream needing it the most (i.e., for fast motion during sporting events, or strobe-light effects, or maybe confetti effects) as opposed to improving storage in viewers' DVRs. But in a case where the 2nd stream is a simulcast, both streams would be needing more bits at exactly the same time. So, maybe using time-delay on the 2nd stream could be employed to allow stat muxing to help in that case. (This is one trick in a multi-pass encoder.)So what is the point in using stat mux on a feed like WBBM that has no other stream? (Not even hidden ones or mobile TV.) Or are they just thinking ahead?

Or are they just thinking ahead?Of course they are. Why else would they be doing it?

Of course they are. Why else would they be doing it?
Stupidity? Corporate group think? Vendor recomendation?

I still think it's a nod to DVR users.

I still think it's a nod to DVR users.Not necessarily to someone who went out and bought a large, hi-rez display, for whom PQ would be of the utmost importance.

Really, to many people like that (such as myself), even without massive hard drives, we don't mind watching and erasing recordings more often - if it means keeping better PQ.

(And with my Tivo, I wouldn't be worrying about the HDD space all that much anyway. You can also upgrade the HDD in the DTV Pal DVR.)

Stupidity? Corporate group think? Vendor recomendation?How many instances can you think of where encoders were upgraded where their weren't definite plans to add more "offerings" - if not immediately, then in the foreseeable future?

Has anyone experienced withdrawal symptoms when switching from cable/satellite to OTA? I'll admit I'm spoiled watching just about everything in HD via Comcast cable. But every so often I look at my cable bill & think why am I spending so much money just to watch TV?

I've considered satellite, but the pricing is not much different than cable depending on what kind of promo someone is offering, at least for the channels I watch. So I frequently think about going OTA and using Hulu, etc for at least some cable programs that I might miss.

Has anyone here dropped cable/satellite & gone OTA and regretted doing it and missing all the channels you used to get? Has the Internet really helped fill in missing programming?

I made the switch to OTA and am happy. WCIU/MeTV/MeToo/ThisTV channels offer a LOT of viewing choices, and the picture quality looks good. I could not be happier! ThisTV offers a bunch of movies, chances are you will find something here you like.

Ion (38.1) has movies and it appears they play them almost every night.

OTA has more viewing choices today than 2 years ago when I got cable. And the channels come in stronger than they did in the past. 2 years ago I could not get CBS, now I can get it.

I won't miss my monthly cable bill. They were going to raise the price. No way am I spending $1000 per year on cable. There are too many other places I would rather spend $1000.

How many instances can you think of where encoders were upgraded where their weren't definite plans to add more "offerings" - if not immediately, then in the foreseeable future?

While plenty of stations do add new encoders before adding services, there are plenty that upgrade encoders without doing so. Just today I was chatting with a station manager who is itching to get a new encoder so he can crush the SD subs down more while improving the HD.

- Trip

While plenty of stations do add new encoders before adding services, there are plenty that upgrade encoders without doing so. Just today I was chatting with a station manager who is itching to get a new encoder so he can crush the SD subs down more while improving the HD.

- Trip

We thoroughly tested our stat mux encoding before actually commiting to them. I fed an HD game, SD game, Cops, MeTV and i forgot what else and suprisingly had great results. Now we have the next generation of encoders. (which we tested before going online)

While plenty of stations do add new encoders before adding services, there are plenty that upgrade encoders without doing so. Just today I was chatting with a station manager who is itching to get a new encoder so he can crush the SD subs down more while improving the HD.

- TripWell, that's a total rarity, I'm sure (especially in this economic climate). It's not in this market, though.

How can you be positive he's being totally on the level, anyway?

On Channel 26, wonder who will get priority here, WBBM or WCHU? WBBM is full power just trying to slightly improve city coverage, but WCHU was kicked off and is forced to move. I would think WBBM would be better off asking the FCC to raise power on their VHF12 signal. If WWTO can go 80KW on 10, why can't WBBM get 30 or 40KW.

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=129745

Wouldn't that be breaking their tradition, though?

I was watching MeTV earlier tonight when the picture began to break up. Thought the antenna (Silver Sensor) was misaligned so readjusted it. No help. Did a rescan and picked up quite a few stations which are different than the usual tropo selections:

WKOW 27, Madison, WI
KRIN/KYIN 2 and 24, Waterloo and Mason City, IA
WBUW 57, Madison, WI
'TPT2' 2(Twin Cities Public Television), Minneapolis, MN

Iowa has been coming and going but Madison was steady for a good couple hours. Watched an episode of Emergency on their RTN sub-channel, then caught the 10PM newscast.

Antenna is only sitting on top of the television, pointed out the 1st story front window. Amazing so far.

-Jim

Well, that's a total rarity, I'm sure (especially in this economic climate). It's not in this market, though.
See hvs10trk's post for an example from Chicago land.

How can you be positive he's being totally on the level, anyway?
Nothing like being called a liar on the internet. :rolleyes: Do you have proof that the station manager isn't on the level or is it just an unfounded accusation?

(BTW: Limiting your knowledge to what ~20 digital stations have done seems foolish. Especially when discussing stations owned from outside of the market.)

On Channel 26, wonder who will get priority here, WBBM or WCHU? WBBM is full power just trying to slightly improve city coverage, but WCHU was kicked off and is forced to move. I would think WBBM would be better off asking the FCC to raise power on their VHF12 signal. If WWTO can go 80KW on 10, why can't WBBM get 30 or 40KW.

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=129745
Being a displacement should help although WBBM did file first. If WCHU was a Class A station they would have a better chance.

It is a good question ... pitting a full power broadcaster vs a low power broadcaster. There is no mention of the WBBM application in WCHU's application so I wonder if they were oblivious to it's existence when they prepared the filing? All things being equal I'd say first come first served ... WBBM would win.

WWTO's 80KW will likely help them on a stick in the middle of fields in the countryside. 40KW on WBBM may not help at all with the multi-path and canyons of downtown. But I'll leave that math to more qualified engineers.

I was watching MeTV earlier tonight when the picture began to break up. Thought the antenna (Silver Sensor) was misaligned so readjusted it. No help. Did a rescan and picked up quite a few stations which are different than the usual tropo selections:

WKOW 27, Madison, WI
KRIN/KYIN 2 and 24, Waterloo and Mason City, IA
WBUW 57, Madison, WI
'TPT2' 2(Twin Cities Public Television), Minneapolis, MN

Iowa has been coming and going but Madison was steady for a good couple hours. Watched an episode of Emergency on their RTN sub-channel, then caught the 10PM newscast.

Antenna is only sitting on top of the television, pointed out the 1st story front window. Amazing so far.

-Jim

Yes, Jim, YES!!! I just got back from a friend's house. At my place in DeKalb right now, I am watching WNEM-DT rf 22, resolves to 5.1, from Flint, MI! My first tropo ever from the Flint/Saginaw/etc market! But my friend, who lives in Waterman, has a ChannelMaster 4228 classic antenna with a CM 7777 preamp, fixed pointed at Rockford on a 30' tower. This is what he got before I left:

1. WUCW-DT rf 22, (24.1), Minneapolis/Twin Cities (no picture, sorry!)

2. WHRM-DT, Wausau, WI:

http://weather.admin.niu.edu/gilbert/shawn0824/tropo10.jpg

http://weather.admin.niu.edu/gilbert/shawn0824/tropo9.jpg

3. KNLC-DT, 900 kilowatts on channel 14, St. Louis, MO:

http://weather.admin.niu.edu/gilbert/shawn0824/tropo8.jpg

http://weather.admin.niu.edu/gilbert/shawn0824/tropo7.jpg

4. WXOW-DT Grand Rapids, MI (rf 19, right over WGN-DT with antenna pointed at Rockford!):

http://weather.admin.niu.edu/gilbert/shawn0824/tropo2.jpg

5. WBAY-DT, Green Bay, WI, rf 23:

http://weather.admin.niu.edu/gilbert/shawn0824/tropo1.jpg

http://weather.admin.niu.edu/gilbert/shawn0824/tropo2.jpg

It's still good, so I am still checking! At 12:30 AM, every Green Bay, WI full power station is
coming in on my TV!

Edit: I just got, at 1 AM...

WHRM-DT 20.1 Wausau (same as Shawn locked)
KLJB-DT 18.1 Ottumwa/Quad Cities, IA
KSMQ-DT 15.1 (rf 20) Rochester, MN (*)
KRIN-DT 35.1 (rf 32) Cedar Falls, IA (*)

(*) First-timers for me

See hvs10trk's post for an example from Chicago land.He said absolutely nothing about "improving the HD", like the guy Trip referred to.

These people are in business to make a profit - not for altruistic reasons.

Saying he'd "like to be able to do it" and actually doing it are completely different things. I'm not calling anybody a blatant "liar" - that was more of a rhetorical question. But personally, I'll believe it when I see it.

He said absolutely nothing about "improving the HD", like the guy Trip referred to.

These people are in business to make a profit - not for altruistic reasons.

Saying he'd "like to be able to do it" and actually doing it are completely different things. Personally, I'll believe it when I see it.

I have never heard or known of any station that actually improved the picture quality on their main channel by upgrading their encoders. At least not permanently. If there did seem to be a slight improvement, it wasn't there for long as they then proceeded to add the subchannel(s) they had planned.

In the case of WCIU, I think the PQ may have improved ever-so-slightly momentarily (and I'm not even sure of that, as it's been so long now I can't even remember clearly), but (if it did) then it went back to being about the same after the new subs came on line.

And now a lot of stations are gearing up for mobile on top of it - just as you or someone else suggested earlier. They can keep upgrading encoders - but things will never ultimately get better for the consumer as far as picture quality. It just doesn't work that way. if anything, It has degraded from all the providers that were around in the earlier days of HD.(Most of these people that never had HD before recently and think HD looks so spectacular from the providers these days would have their socks blown off if they saw what was being sent out 10 years ago.)

If I'm wrong and there's ever an exception, by all means, let me know. But momentary improvements don't count.

From what I've seen out there with channels running subchannels they get softer and induce many digital artifacts vs just running one HD channel. Unfortunately they will continue to cram as much content as possible in the tight bandwidth since it's all about money. Cable and satellite have already done it OTA is next. Not much sense to spend money on a very large screen HDTV since all you end up with is a soft/artifact mess. And the larger the screen the more you see it. May as well hook that mess up to a 13 inch SDTV and call it a night :(

I think in about 5 years time, I'd be able to make a killing if I started a company that made 27" - 36" 480i analog CRT's again. And I say that only half-jokingly.

I think in about 5 years time, I'd be able to make a killing if I started a company that made 27" - 36" 480i analog CRT's again. And I say that only half-jokingly.

I predicted this to quite a few years ago and it's coming true. Eventually when there done butchering all the HD signals out there they wont look any better than the SD analog stuff we had. The pie plate dishes are one of the biggest offenders out there. They brainwash the people with subpar poor digital SD for so long they think thats the norm. Then when they see something a tad bit better (bitstarved digital HD) they think it's the cats meow. They charge them more money and there evil little plan works.

If people saw what a SD analog or digital master can look like on C band they would be so blown away by it and Im talking SD.

When I bought my Sharp AQUOS 1080p last Feb I told the guy in the showroom I wanted to see some HD. They only had Direct Tv hooked up and the HD looked sub-par I was kind of put off when I saw it and thought maybe this tv is crap. They were using component. After buying it I brought it home and fed a 1st generation SD digital master to it via S video from c band. Now keep in mind I had it in smart stretch also (to fill the screen) It blew the doors in on what I saw in the showroom from Direct tv and marketed as HD.

That just proves my theory I spoke about above. The only ones that will ever be able to see a beautiful HD or SD picture will be the guys in the control room or those tuning into the broadcast master feeds at home with the right equipment.

What they sell to the consumer should be marketed as Widescreen SLP VHS Quality :eek:

I've always believed that the FCC (with Congressional permission, of course) could have "jump started" the whole DTV transition, by changing the way we licensed Digital stations.

We should have licensed a "Transmission Consortium" in each market, then licensed the existing stations (and newcomers) as "Digital Programmers". With a couple of transmitters and a tower, the "stations" could have all been on the air with Digital SDTV from day one. As the "programmers" acquired HDTV programming, more transmitters could have been lit-up. Transmitters could be turned on and off as needed, or programming re-allocated to different channels, as required....just like Cable and satellite do it.

The sub-channels could then be placed wherever the spare bandwidth existed, without regards to "whose channel it is". And, the FCC could have rewarded markets that did a good job, with more bandwidth (RF Channels) via their Transmission Consortium.

I think in about 5 years time, I'd be able to make a killing if I started a company that made 27" - 36" 480i analog CRT's again. And I say that only half-jokingly.I must be the smartest guy in the room. My HD set is a 37" 1080i CRT and although it can handle HDMI and component it does a great job of not ruining SD content.

I believe people want content ... they expect a clear picture. If it is delivered to them in enhanced definition instead of "high" definition I don't believe most will care. Clear enough works well for the vast majority of viewers.

Many would just be happy to get a signal after the analog shutoff.

What kind of weather or other conditions should we keep an eye on to estimate what times might have good tropo?

I've always believed that the FCC (with Congressional permission, of course) could have "jump started" the whole DTV transition, by changing the way we licensed Digital stations.

I nominate you for chairman of the FCC.

Seriously, when do we get some engineers on the Commission, instead of a bunch of lawyers?

What kind of weather or other conditions should we keep an eye on to estimate what times might have good tropo?

Cool air at ground level, but with warmer air coming in aloft. An approaching warm front is a good tip-off, as is a stationary front in your area. It doesn't guarantee tropo, but your chances are much better when that happens.

In the case of WCIU, I think the PQ may have improved ever-so-slightly momentarily (and I'm not even sure of that, as it's been so long now I can't even remember clearly), but (if it did) then it went back to being about the same after the new subs came on line.


I caught the White Sox last night in HD on WCIU and it was good picture quality. The subchannels did not seem to harm the HD picture at all.

I caught the White Sox last night in HD on WCIU and it was good picture quality. The subchannels did not seem to harm the HD picture at all.I never said they did. I said the main channel looked the same as it did before they upgraded the encoders.

I must be the smartest guy in the room. My HD set is a 37" 1080i CRT and although it can handle HDMI and component it does a great job of not ruining SD content.

I believe people want content ... they expect a clear picture. If it is delivered to them in enhanced definition instead of "high" definition I don't believe most will care. Clear enough works well for the vast majority of viewers.

Many would just be happy to get a signal after the analog shutoff.My main TV is a 50" Elite plasma - it does great with SD, and can even make a marginable SD picture look better, between it's scaler and noise reduction features. Still, when the channels look bad, they look bad. Garbage in, garbage out. You can't make a silk purse out of ION Life, Live Well, Universal Sports, WFBT-DT (good Lord - those poor Chinese), 56.3 & 56.4 etc. - even if you spent thousands extra on a Silicon Optix scaler and an Algolith Mosquito.

I'm assuming what you mean by that "smartest guy" remark is the fact that HD CRT's handle SD the best of any technology out there. But anyone buying a TV now (and in the last few years) can't get something like that new, from a B&M store (only SDTV sets no larger than 20", and the cheapest brands imaginable). They're really manipulating the LCD flat panels onto people more than anything else now (higher markup), and those happen to be the absolute worst with SD in general.

By the way - all those channels mentioned are still totally unwatchable on my 32" 480i CRT. If anyone can actually watch them, they're a better person than I am. Or worse - as far as their eyesight. And as far as content - I can't imagine a subchannel being less worth watching by anyone than Live Well (which, of course, to add insult to injury, is HD on top of it). I know there are at least a couple of people here who will say "but they rerun the local news from the main channel - and that's reason enough for it to exist" - and to that I reply, get a #@%$&*#@ VCR dirt cheap from a resale shop, or even free from someone you know. It's not nice or fair that it makes 7.1 here look like widescreen SD, for all of us millions who have spent big bucks on a large, HD display.

My main TV is a 50" Elite plasma - it does great with SD, and can even make a marginable SD picture look better, between it's scaler and noise reduction features. Still, when the channels look bad, they look bad. Garbage in, garbage out. You can't make a silk purse out of ION Life, Live Well, Universal Sports, WFBT-DT (good Lord - those poor Chinese), 56.3 & 56.4 etc. - even if you spent thousands extra on a Silicon Optix scaler and an Algolith Mosquito.

I'm assuming what you mean by that "smartest guy" remark is the fact that HD CRT's handle SD the best of any technology out there. But anyone buying a TV now (and in the last few years) can't get something like that new, from a B&M store (only SDTV sets no larger than 20", and the cheapest brands imaginable). They're really manipulating the LCD flat panels onto people more than anything else now (higher markup), and those happen to be the absolute worst with SD in general.

By the way - all those channels mentioned are still totally unwatchable on my 32" 480i CRT. If anyone can actually watch them, they're a better person than I am. Or worse - as far as their eyesight. And as far as content - I can't imagine a subchannel being less worth watching by anyone than Live Well (which, of course, to add insult to injury, is HD on top of it). I know there are at least a couple of people here who will say "but they rerun the local news from the main channel - and that's reason enough for it to exist" - and to that I reply, get a #@%$&*#@ VCR dirt cheap from a resale shop, or even free from someone you know. It's not nice or fair that it makes 7.1 here look like widescreen SD, for all of us millions who have spent big bucks on a large, HD display.

I think Live Well looks better than the weather subchannels. It is not the best example of HD, but it is not horrible either. Live Well does break up a little if the camera moves too fast, but for having a cooking show or something like that the picture quality is not bad. I would like to see PBS on 11 do the same thing, change their subchannels to HD the same way ABC does.

I think Live Well looks better than the weather subchannels. It is not the best example of HD, but it is not horrible either. Live Well does break up a little if the camera moves too fast, but for having a cooking show or something like that the picture quality is not bad. I would like to see PBS on 11 do the same thing, change their subchannels to HD the same way ABC does.

Wow! With all due respect, Livewell is some of the nastiest so called HD PQ on TV! It's a pixelated mess. If this looks good, I'll assume it's on a small display, and/or at a long distance for your display size.

While 7.1 has improved a bit since the Live Well HD launch, there has been a substantial reduction in PQ. I challenge anyone with a quality HD display to watch the news on 7.1, and then switch to 2.1 and compare the difference. It's night and day.

Frankly, Channel 7 would be better served to drop the Live Well down to 480P widescreen, and re-allocate the bits to 7.1.

Frankly, Channel 7 would be better served to drop the Live Well down to 480P widescreen, and re-allocate the bits to 7.1.

Fixed that for you. :D :D :D

Anyone catch the Miss Universe pageant on NBC last Sunday? Strictly for anthropological reasons, of course. ;) It was an absolute mess. Slightest motion meant major blurring, blockiness, etc. I also checked out the HD broadcast of the same on the spanish language channel (44.1, I think). Same disaster. It was really REALLY bad, difficult to watch.

This was the first year they broadcast this event in HD. What a letdown.

fixed that for you. :d :d :d

lol! :d

Anyone catch the Miss Universe pageant on NBC last Sunday? Strictly for anthropological reasons, of course. ;) It was an absolute mess. Slightest motion meant major blurring, blockiness, etc. I also checked out the HD broadcast of the same on the spanish language channel (44.1, I think). Same disaster. It was really REALLY bad, difficult to watch.

This was the first year they broadcast this event in HD. What a letdown.

I took my glasses off, and drank a six-pack. The girls were Beautiful! and the HD PQ was still remarkably better than Live Well HD! :p

Yes, they were (beautiful), though they botched up the top ten. but that's a whole 'nother subject.

I've only tuned in to Live Well a handful of times for a couple minutes at a time, but Live Well is video perfection compared to the abysmal Miss Universe broadcast. If the women are standing still, yes, great HD. But once they start jiggling, err, I mean moving, all hell broke loose in terms of macroblocking or general blurring.

hi i am new to this forum though i have read it many times.

can anyone tell me what is going on with the upgrades at channel 7 and 26.. i read with interest that channel 7 is moving it frequency and channel 26 is upping its power. do we know when this will happen?

fall tv is coming and i want to be able to watch all chicago stations from the city of chicago limits. i have only my uhf/vhf antenna. i tired a friends antenna and not a better view. i get all other stations with the exception of 62 but nothing on there worth watching.

please help a poor person with a time period

Wow! With all due respect, Livewell is some of the nastiest so called HD PQ on TV! It's a pixelated mess. If this looks good, I'll assume it's on a small display, and/or at a long distance for your display size.

While 7.1 has improved a bit since the Live Well HD launch, there has been a substantial reduction in PQ. I challenge anyone with a quality HD display to watch the news on 7.1, and then switch to 2.1 and compare the difference. It's night and day.

Frankly, Channel 7 would be better served to drop the Live Well down to 480P widescreen, and re-allocate the bits to 7.1.

LiveWell is not as bad as you make it out to be. Watch 11.3 and then turn to LiveWell and compare the difference between the two subchannels. Maybe I am not as critical of HD after having comcast for a couple years. I would not call LiveWell good HD, but I would not call it horrible either. I watch on a 50" plasma and sit about 9 feet away. As long as the picture is not grainy or blurred, then I consider it to be good. I remember what bad picture quality was when I first switched from a CRT to plasma and watched 480i. Now that was horrible.

I would not mind if LiveWell dropped to 480p. Most people would be happy with that for cooking shows and the kind of content on LiveWell. I think most people would want the best HD quality for movies and prime time shows.

Anyone catch the Miss Universe pageant on NBC last Sunday? Strictly for anthropological reasons, of course. ;) It was an absolute mess. Slightest motion meant major blurring, blockiness, etc. I also checked out the HD broadcast of the same on the spanish language channel (44.1, I think). Same disaster. It was really REALLY bad, difficult to watch.

This was the first year they broadcast this event in HD. What a letdown.Yes - it was by far the worst, most unwatchable thing I've ever seen on a main HD channel in my life. And that's no exaggeration (I imagine all the flashing lights are what made it especially atrocious).

I could only stomach the first five minutes, until all the contestants had been introduced - but even if it had looked spectacular, I would've tuned out at that point, anyway. I haven't checked into the event in a few years, and I found that it just wasn't geared toward people such as myself at all anymore.

I would not call LiveWell good HD, but I would not call it horrible either. I watch on a 50" plasma and sit about 9 feet away. As long as the picture is not grainy or blurred, then I consider it to be good.Well, then, consider yourself lucky that your eyes and brain are not susceptible to the intolerance of excessive digital artifacts then - like most of the rest of us.

I don't know what WLS looks like, but I know what LiveWell looks like on co-owned WTVD, and I would absolutely refuse to watch it if there was anything on worth watching. Any movement dissolves into blocks. It's completely unwatchable.

- Trip

WLS definitely suffers from the sub channels, WBBM and WFLD look much better to me.

I don't know what WLS looks like...Like I said before, 7.1 basically looks like widescreen SD now. Some shows, like Oprah and All My Children (neither of which I watch, thank God) are soft, smeary, and show absolutely no fine detail at all (they also add some edge-enhancement to try and make up for it).

Yes - it was by far the worst, most unwatchable thing I've ever seen on a main HD channel in my life. And that's no exaggeration (I imagine all the flashing lights are what made it especially atrocious).

I could only stomach the first five minutes, until all the contestants had been introduced -

THANK YOU. I couldn't believe nobody else had commented about this on AVS. At least the couple times I've searched for it, nothing turned up in terms of discussion. Historically bad.


I don't watch pageants for the most part, but I was curious to see this one as it was in HD widescreen for the first time. The other disaster of the pageant was the performance of that Heidi chick made "famous" from The Hills MTV show & I'm a Celebrity.. Get Me Out of Here. I had to avert my eyes as it was just that embarrassing to watch. I have a new appreciation for the performance and vocal skills of Britney Spears after that train wreck.

WGN-DT had applied for 600 kilowatts of power after analog shutdown, and to raise their antenna height on Sears. They had to lower their current power slightly to compensate for the increased distance. Now we know that the FCC said no to that due to interference with WXMI-DT in Grand Rapids, MI, but the FCC offered WGN to get an interference agreement with WXMI-DT saying that they don't mind. WXIN agreed to that, so WGN's application has been reconsidered at the FCC. It should get approved without further incident.

WXMI in Grand Rapids, not WXIN in Indianapolis. ;)

But yeah, they're both owned by Tribune. So they had to get an interference agreement with themselves.

- Trip

WXMI in Grand Rapids, not WXIN in Indianapolis. ;)

But yeah, they're both owned by Tribune. So they had to get an interference agreement with themselves.

- Trip

I plead too many call sign letters to remember. :D Other actions: Trinity Broadcasting Network did apply to flash cut their Elgin translator to channel 30 several years ago, and has requested a 6 month extension to build it out after all...and then probably sell it.

Other actions: Trinity Broadcasting Network did apply to flash cut their Elgin translator to channel 30 several years ago, and has requested a 6 month extension to build it out after all...and then probably sell it.
"In addition, it would not have been feasible for Trinity to transition its Low Power TV and TV Translator stations to digital prior to June 12, 2009, in view of the Congressional extension of the full power digital transition from February 17 to June 12, 2009. Had Trinity constructed W30CK-D’s digital facilities prior to that date, it would have risked disenfranchising numerous viewers who receive its TV Translators’ signals off-air."

57 went silent last year due to equipment problems ... did they make it back? (I wish the FCC's system was more clear about such things. Although the Silent STA expired in March and was not renewed so they should be on the air.)

With LaSalle so far out of town TBN should use 30 themselves.

good morning when could we see more HD programs on WCIU?

good morning when could we see more HD programs on WCIU?

Whenever the syndicators offer them in HD.

Last evening (about 9PM), I was playing around with my DTT901 to see what I could get. I now get WCHU, but no audio. A Samsung TV in the bedroom did have audio.

Stepping through the manual tuning, there was some activity on RF9. Just enough to give a bouncing bar in the BAD zone, but not enough to get a picture or info. I don't see RF9 as being used in any lists I've seen posted. Any idea on what it might have been?

I'm in Schaumburg, using an apartment MATV system.

Last evening (about 9PM), I was playing around with my DTT901 to see what I could get. I now get WCHU, but no audio. A Samsung TV in the bedroom did have audio.

Stepping through the manual tuning, there was some activity on RF9. Just enough to give a bouncing bar in the BAD zone, but not enough to get a picture or info. I don't see RF9 as being used in any lists I've seen posted. Any idea on what it might have been?

I'm in Schaumburg, using an apartment MATV system.

Given that KCRG-TV9 just got a power boost in Cedar Rapids, and tropo has been favorable to the west, I'm guessing it was that.

Last evening (about 9PM), I was playing around with my DTT901 to see what I could get. I now get WCHU, but no audio. A Samsung TV in the bedroom did have audio.

Stepping through the manual tuning, there was some activity on RF9. Just enough to give a bouncing bar in the BAD zone, but not enough to get a picture or info. I don't see RF9 as being used in any lists I've seen posted. Any idea on what it might have been?

I'm in Schaumburg, using an apartment MATV system.

I was going to comment on that too but wanted to see if anyone else had first. I can get 61-1 and 61-2 fairly steady now. I've also been getting 13-1 and 13-2 steady all day. 13-1 and 2 didn't have any audio last week but now they do. Audio on 61 too. Can hear them on my TV no problem. Good signal strength on both channels too. I don't know if the channels will be reliable consistently now, this may be due to to the weather but thought I'd mention that.

WCHU-LD 44 (61.1/61.2) has filed for displacement, to get out of the way of the WLS juggernaut...and has asked for channel 26 as a result.

Hmmm, who else wanted 26...:eek:

WBBM and WCHU...my money is on WBBM. Bigger, badder and they applied first. Not to mention, of course, the translator to improve the VHF issue that WBBM has; the FCC will look favorably, IMO, on WBBM. We'll see how it goes, but this just got a little interesting.

Also, 61 analog is off the air now, as far as I can tell.

61 analog has been off the air as long as 61 (RF44) digital has been on, but analog 6 is still going.

So now several of us have posted that the Zenith DTT601 can't produce audio from WCHU/WFLM's digital signal.  Neither could my Digital Stream DTX9950.  The Zinwell ZAT-970A (0830 model) and the Magnavox TB100MG9 both do, and so do all four of our TVs that have their own ATSC tuners.

I was getting 61.1-61.2 late last night (Crystal Lake) on my 4th generation Sony tuner, but it was breaking up (both sound and video). I didn't even bother to check it on the newer TiVo in the living room - but I'd assume it was coming in better. Everything else does.

Not that I really care all that much, though, as I won't ever watch that channel, anyway.

Does any reader of this thread have a DTVPal DVR?  If so, and you can receive 61.1 and 61.2, can the DTVPal DVR decode the audio on those channels?

Probably not the same anyway, but I have a DTV Pal CECB (not even a DTV Pal Plus) - although it's stashed away right now, and I have no immediate plans to bring it out.

'Tinski: you have a different product from the same company, you rarely receive the station I'm asking about and have no interest in the fare on either of its channels, and you have no intention of hooking that product up nor of watching those channels when you can get them ... OK, fine on every count, but then why bother responding to a question like the one I asked?

It's been *said* in the DVR thread that the Pal DVR's tuner is the same as the one in the Pal Plus CECB.

So if it turns out nobody has a Pal DVR here, but they have a Pal Plus, that might give you an idea.

It's been *said* in the DVR thread that the Pal DVR's tuner is the same as the one in the Pal Plus CECB.

So if it turns out nobody has a Pal DVR here, but they have a Pal Plus, that might give you an idea.OK, thank you, that's potentially helpful.

AUDIO ON WYIN

Anyone else notice the audio delay on all four WYIN channels? The audio is at least 20 seconds behind the video. Been like this the last couple of days ota, via Directv and also via Comcast.

Does any reader of this thread have a DTVPal DVR?* If so, and you can receive 61.1 and 61.2, can the DTVPal DVR decode the audio on those channels?

I have a DTVPal DVR, and I am getting both 61.1 and 61.2 in Elgin with an attic antenna. Sound is good and stable, and signal strength is ~ 78 compared to 90-98 for most other Chicago locals.

For what it's worth, the DTVPal DVR's tuner is the best I currently have in the house. The others are JVC LCD, 2 Sharp LCDs, Mits 65" DLP and Tosh 37" LCD.

Thank you, videoguy60467 (the thanking function having been removed for retooling, that has to be said in a post).  I'm thinking about a DTVPal DVR if we ever improve our antenna setup, and if it were not going to be reliable in decoding the audio when reception is not a problem, that would be a factor against it.  As little as I need the two particular channels where the problem's shown up with the DTT901 and the DTX9950, who knows when there may be other such channels with content that I'd want to watch?

Glad there was at least someone here with a Pal DVR that could relate their experience. I asked over in the Pal DVR thread if the DVR definitely had the same tuner as the Pal Plus, and someone linked to something that said it did.

(Now, if only the above poster had a Zenith or DS to compare it to in his situation. ;))

I think you'll be happy with the Pal, otherwise, as long as all the bugs are fixed - but I wouldn't necessarily get it mainly as a possible upgrade to the receiving abilities of your Zenith. It may slightly be better - or it may not. Shouldn't at least be worse, anyway (I found the Pal 'Regular' to be about equal to the Zenith in my situation - and the 'Plus' model is *supposed* to be a bit better - although there are reports by some that it's really no better in their situation).

The Pal DVR is slightly amped internally to make up for the split to the two tuners, but only enough to make that up. From what I've read, it sounds like there are just as many people that find it doesn't measure up to their best tuner as there are that say it's their best.

So it's hard to say. Conflicting reports all around - as is usually the case with tuners.

For now the DTVPal DVR would do me no good, as the only HDTV in the house is in a location with poor OTA reception, so it's a slave to the cable connection and the Motorola DVR from Comcast.  But if my interest in cable far wanes sufficiently, the investment in an additional outdoor antenna and the cabling for it plus a DTVPal DVR may be justified.

Well, I don't know what your tastes are, but IMO, programming on cable shouldn't be expected to get any better in the near future.

I have a pretty basic satellite package myself, but I really can't imagine my interest in the programming waning all that much more.

Hopefully you can get through the winter with it, then deal with that in the spring if you make your decision by then. I might even change my package slightly to one for 3 bucks more for the winter - at least it'll have IFC, National Geographic, the Sirius/XM Music Channels (which are actually less compressed and sound better than directly via their satellite to their tuner), Comcast Sports Net (for the Hawks - couldn't care less about the Bulls) and free Playboy TV. I'll lose ESPN, but I really don't care about that in the winter (I'm a Bears' fan - but not necessarily a Pro Football fanatic. I just keep up with the standings and the basic, important info - like injuries, etc, - stuff I can get in the local paper. In fact, other than for Baseball in the summer, I really don't have any use for that channel at all. It's gotten pretty bad - even saw a 10-minute long "Reality" segment on Sportscenter a couple of weeks back. You really can't go much lower than that).

I don't have HD for that - but I honestly don't think having that would make me watch anything anymore than I do (I do have a DVR for it, though). Got a TiVo HD, too - but I can't use it with that, obviously. Only OTA.

and free playboy tv

How???

and is it in uncompressed HD? :D

For now the DTVPal DVR would do me no good, as the only HDTV in the house is in a location with poor OTA reception, so it's a slave to the cable connection and the Motorola DVR from Comcast.* But if my interest in cable far wanes sufficiently, the investment in an additional outdoor antenna and the cabling for it plus a DTVPal DVR may be justified.

Have you compared tuners between the DTVPal and your HDTV? Perhaps the DTVPal tuner can get channels you didn't believe you can get.

and is it in uncompressed HD? :DNeither. It's highly compressed SD (it's bearable on my 32" analog, though). It is free, though.

I know you're being sarcastic, but in case you didn't know, no provider shows uncompressed HD.

OK, thank you, that's potentially helpful.

I too recall reading the PalPlus and the DTVPalDVR had the same tuner. I have the PalPlus and trying to get 61.1 or 61.2, the unit goes to 060-2 WXFT-DT with a signal strength of ~70 +/- 3, but no sound and no picture

ETA: I tried with the DTT901 and no signal strength at all for 61.1 or 61.2 which surprises me since it locks better than the DTVPal. Going to 60.2 on this unit locks in WGBODT. Hope this helps

hi i am new to this forum though i have read it many times.....can anyone tell me what is going on with the upgrades at channel 7 and 26.......i want to be able to watch all chicago stations from the city of chicago limits. i have only my uhf/vhf antenna. i tired a friends antenna and not a better view. i get all other stations with the exception of 62 but nothing on there worth watching. please help a poor person with a time period

welcome to our little asylum here, judget.....

if youre anywhere inside the chicago city limits and u cant get ch 7 or 26 (or most any other medium or high power chicago station) u must have a basic antenna system problem which could probably be easily fixed....u should be getting those channels with no problem....especially ch 26...

ch 62 transmits at a much lower power and its antenna pattern is directional but i think they are going to higher power sometime soon.....

give us some details on what antenna, etc youre using and i bet we can help u out...

week end wee hours on THIS tv has started showing
"sea hunt" with lloyd bridges -
praise be for something other than patty duke and mr. ed reruns
now if MeToo can just add it in .....

kd9fz
comments, criticisms and questions of sanity are always welcome

Looks like you got your wish for a day, see? (http://www.wciu.com/schedule.php?station=wmeu&date=9/3/09) From the schedule, looks like you can see Sea Hunt on MeToo for a whole day during the marathons on MeToo on September 3rd.

Looks like you got your wish for a day, see? (http://www.wciu.com/schedule.php?station=wmeu&date=9/3/09) From the schedule, looks like you can see Sea Hunt on MeToo for a whole day during the marathons on MeToo on September 3rd.

i got the old vcr cleaned and bought a couple fresh tapes

i got the superman and combat! marathons taped too


kd9fz
comments, criticisms and questions of sanity are always welcome

I too recall reading the PalPlus and the DTVPalDVR had the same tuner. I have the PalPlus and trying to get 61.1 or 61.2, the unit goes to 060-2 WXFT-DT with a signal strength of ~70 +/- 3, but no sound and no picture

ETA: I tried with the DTT901 and no signal strength at all for 61.1 or 61.2 which surprises me since it locks better than the DTVPal. Going to 60.2 on this unit locks in WGBODT. Hope this helpsI think what you have there is a reception issue if you can't get 61.1 or 61.2 on either tuner.  I get the signal fine, and all four TVs that have ATSC tuners and two of the CECBs can display the channels, but the other two CECBs show video without audio.

Have you compared tuners between the DTVPal and your HDTV? Perhaps the DTVPal tuner can get channels you didn't believe you can get.I don't have any DTVPal products at my disposal, Awesomeness.  That's why I posed the question here.

Here's the reason I brought this up.  If we're suddenly getting new ATSC channels where some tuners can extract the audio from their signals and some cannot, maybe we'll get more like that.  We can do just fine if only certain rooms in the house get the sound on WCHU or WLFM, but what if more new stations come on the air and are like that?  So if the DTVPal DVR (the only Dish/Echostar/whatever product I'm thinking of buying) can't extract the audio from those channels either, that would affect my decision about buying one.

i got the old vcr cleaned and bought a couple fresh tapes

i got the superman and combat! marathons taped too


kd9fz
comments, criticisms and questions of sanity are always welcome


Watch out for those "turbulent waters":p

Just thought I'd mention that someone in the DTV Pal CECB thread the other day mentioned that their Plus doesn't receive as well as their Zenith.

WGN-DT had applied for 600 kilowatts of power after analog shutdown, and to raise their antenna height on Sears. They had to lower their current power slightly to compensate for the increased distance. Now we know that the FCC said no to that due to interference with WXMI-DT in Grand Rapids, MI, but the FCC offered WGN to get an interference agreement with WXMI-DT saying that they don't mind. WXIN agreed to that, so WGN's application has been reconsidered at the FCC. It should get approved without further incident.

That explains why WGN has dropped off of the face of the earth out here in Bearbonnais. I used to get them reliably, and now they do nothing but pixlate, Nothing has changed in the system.

welcome to our little asylum here, judget.....

if youre anywhere inside the chicago city limits and u cant get ch 7 or 26 (or most any other medium or high power chicago station) u must have a basic antenna system problem which could probably be easily fixed....u should be getting those channels with no problem....especially ch 26...

ch 62 transmits at a much lower power and its antenna pattern is directional but i think they are going to higher power sometime soon.....

give us some details on what antenna, etc youre using and i bet we can help u out...

i do live inside the city limits along the lakefron in a highrise. i know from speaking with the people at 26 that they have a problem with the signal penetrating high rises and they are upping there power to fix this problem. the same issue is ongoing with channel 7.

i have an indoor antenna because a high rise i can not have an outdoor antenna.

i have the tv near the window. i get the balance of the chicago stations without a problem.


please assist me with my problem

i do live inside the city limits along the lakefron in a highrise. i know from speaking with the people at 26 that they have a problem with the signal penetrating high rises and they are upping there power to fix this problem. the same issue is ongoing with channel 7.

i have an indoor antenna because a high rise i can not have an outdoor antenna.

i have the tv near the window. i get the balance of the chicago stations without a problem.


please assist me with my problem

Not so much upping the power as it is adding different polarities to our signal as well. Combination of the 2 should improve reception in the city.

Hi all - been lurking for months on and off, more on lately in efforts to do this: watch Milwaukee area locals (WITI - FOX affiliate in particular) in Crystal Lake, IL.

Had a very competent and pleasant fairly local antenna installer to my house today trying one and then another antenna (Winegard GS2200 then a HD7695)) raised 10 or so feet above my roof. The 2200 got nothing from Milwaukee (65 or so miles). With the 7695 some Milwaukee stations were signal strength 65 or higher regularly (at least a few minutes or so) through my Dish Network receiver. These appeared to be watchable for the long term. However, some other Milwaukees, WITI included, ranged in strength from 58-68. Not watchable in the long term for me, to much cutting out too often.

They used Winegard antennas and pre-amps and raised the antenna 10 feet or so on a mast and tripod on my rooftop.

In the end I had them install nothing since what I wanted wasn't going to happen reliably.

They did say leaf loss would improve the signal strength, maybe even quite noticeably in the next couple months. Is that true?

I can add a few more details if that would help (dish network receiver model, etc), but my guess is they don't matter too much.

Any other options for me that any of you can think of?

Thanks!

Just thought I'd mention that someone in the DTV Pal CECB thread the other day mentioned that their Plus doesn't receive as well as their Zenith.

That's certainly true for me

Any other options for me that any of you can think of?

I would think you might have more luck with a bigger antenna and/or more height. Winegard's site lists the 7695 as a zone 3 antenna; they have other zone 4 antennas that have more gain. The VHF/UHF ones are behemoths; if you can live without WMVS you could try a UHF only model such as their 9095 which would be smaller (and has 3-4 more dB of gain over the 7695).

I would think you might have more luck with a bigger antenna and/or more height. Winegard's site lists the 7695 as a zone 3 antenna; they have other zone 4 antennas that have more gain. The VHF/UHF ones are behemoths; if you can live without WMVS you could try a UHF only model such as their 9095 which would be smaller (and has 3-4 more dB of gain over the 7695).

I would put a 9095 up as high as possible with a preamp at 65 miles he should have a good chance with enough height & antenna gain to get Milwaukee reliably. I have to stress Height though like 50 feet this will make the largest difference.

As far as STB's I would get a Zenith DTT 900 (if he can find one) or 901 they work very well for DX signals. Forget the Dish crap.

Hi all - been lurking for months on and off, more on lately in efforts to do this: watch Milwaukee area locals (WITI - FOX affiliate in particular) in Crystal Lake, IL.

Had a very competent and pleasant fairly local antenna installer to my house today trying one and then another antenna (Winegard GS2200 then a HD7695)) raised 10 or so feet above my roof. The 2200 got nothing from Milwaukee (65 or so miles). With the 7695 some Milwaukee stations were signal strength 65 or higher regularly (at least a few minutes or so) through my Dish Network receiver. These appeared to be watchable for the long term. However, some other Milwaukees, WITI included, ranged in strength from 58-68. Not watchable in the long term for me, to much cutting out too often.

They used Winegard antennas and pre-amps and raised the antenna 10 feet or so on a mast and tripod on my rooftop.

In the end I had them install nothing since what I wanted wasn't going to happen reliably.

They did say leaf loss would improve the signal strength, maybe even quite noticeably in the next couple months. Is that true?

I can add a few more details if that would help (dish network receiver model, etc), but my guess is they don't matter too much.

Any other options for me that any of you can think of?

Thanks!

If you can live without the VHF station(WMVS), go for a 91XG with a good preamp and you may want to consider a tower to get antenna really high up there.

A B SWITCH HELP NEEDED
i need an A B switch that is RF controled or another way to switch my Chicago antenna and 2nd Dish receiver output that both come into the basement and from that point I have only one cable. Dish is on channel 60 from my living room. I would like to switch or combine Chicago antenna and Dish output to the one cable going to the kitchen set. How can I do this?
Jim

Not so much upping the power as it is adding different polarities to our signal as well. Combination of the 2 should improve reception in the city.


hvs: thanks for the info. do we have an eta as to when this will happen?
i am missing lots of great programs by the issue with channel 26 and the subs.




thanks

judget

hvs: thanks for the info. do we have an eta as to when this will happen?
i am missing lots of great programs by the issue with channel 26 and the subs.




thanks

judget

Don't have one at this time.

Hi all - been lurking for months on and off, more on lately in efforts to do this: watch Milwaukee area locals (WITI - FOX affiliate in particular) in Crystal Lake, IL.

Had a very competent and pleasant fairly local antenna installer to my house today trying one and then another antenna (Winegard GS2200 then a HD7695)) raised 10 or so feet above my roof. The 2200 got nothing from Milwaukee (65 or so miles). With the 7695 some Milwaukee stations were signal strength 65 or higher regularly (at least a few minutes or so) through my Dish Network receiver. These appeared to be watchable for the long term. However, some other Milwaukees, WITI included, ranged in strength from 58-68. Not watchable in the long term for me, to much cutting out too often.

They used Winegard antennas and pre-amps and raised the antenna 10 feet or so on a mast and tripod on my rooftop.

In the end I had them install nothing since what I wanted wasn't going to happen reliably.

They did say leaf loss would improve the signal strength, maybe even quite noticeably in the next couple months. Is that true?

I can add a few more details if that would help (dish network receiver model, etc), but my guess is they don't matter too much.

Any other options for me that any of you can think of?

Thanks!

Hi bb4444,

Welcome to the forum! Glad you're here. I think/hope I can answer your question.

First of all, the latest Dish Network boxes have 5th generation tuners. They have fantastic receivers in them. But, close to the cities, they would overload the box, and cause the picture to be lost. So, Dish did a firmware upgrade which knocked down the sensitivity. I know two people with those Dish boxes, and they used to get out-of-market stations 70 to 90 miles away. After that firmware upgrade (they knew what caused it and Dish confirmed it), they lost their weaker out-of-market signals. I saw it first hand at one of my friend's houses.

If you go with the Winegard 7697, AND the amplifier your installer had, you should get solid reception through a TV with a 5th generation tuner or a 6th generation tuner. The 6th gens have been around about a year now; they are a bit more sensitive and can reject multipath (on analog, the effect was seen as "ghosts" on the screen, or multiple images) better. The 5th gens have been around 3 years or so.

What I suggest you do is connect your HD box via component or HDMI cable to your TV, and then use the RF for the antenna. Yes, you would bypass your box, and you wouldn't be able to record anything off of it, UNLESS that larger antenna helped out (which it should). Now...

You mentioned trees. If there are some trees in the way, you will gain roughly 20% or more of signal during the late fall/winter/spring. So, that will help you, too. Also, be advised that at night, the atmospheric noise floor lowers some. I am 90 miles from WKOW-DT Madison. It breaks up during the day, but with a rotor, I can get it every night...and this with an attic antenna in a one story home, and in a shallow valley to boot! Also, height is critical. With a 1,500 transmitter tower, line of sight 30' above ground level is 60 miles. So, at 65 miles, you're pushing it. But, every 10' higher you go up gets you approximately an additional ~3db (50% or so) signal gain.

Something tells me you're a Packers or Brewers fan, and you have the right idea on the antenna, and so does your installer. I would advise them to go with the 7697...we get some interesting (in a good way) reception reports from it here on AVS.

Just my $.02, and I hope that helps you!

Hi,

I'm wanting to put an antenna up on my roof. I'm wondering if I still need the VHF band. When everything went digital did all station move to UHF? I think channel 2 is still vhf. I'm located in Woodstock about 53 miles from most of the downtown Chicago towers. Any thoughts on antenna?

Thanks,
Tom

Hi,

I'm wanting to put an antenna up on my roof. I'm wondering if I still need the VHF band. When everything went digital did all station move to UHF? I think channel 2 is still vhf. I'm located in Woodstock about 53 miles from most of the downtown Chicago towers. Any thoughts on antenna?

Thanks,
Tom

Hi Tom,

Yes, 7 is still on 7 (but hopefully late this year or next year will move to 44), and WBBM is on 12 and will stay there. My recommendation is the Winegard 7697. Goes out 60 miles, and since you are near the fringe, you'll need an antenna that size. It runs about $100 over at solidsignal.com, or if you want to drive to http://www.tselectonic.com/location in Mount Prospect, and get one.

Hi Tom,

Yes, 7 is still on 7 (but hopefully late this year or next year will move to 44), and WBBM is on 12 and will stay there. My recommendation is the Winegard 7697. Goes out 60 miles, and since you are near the fringe, you'll need an antenna that size. It runs about $100 over at solidsignal.com, or if you want to drive to http://www.tselectonic.com/location in Mount Prospect, and get one.

Thanks Gilbert, I ordered a Winegard HD8200 from Tselectric today but, they said they are out of stock. He suggested the hd7698p but, I held off. He said it was the same size. The difference is they have removed the Elements for Channel 7 and under. They are no longer needed in our area since the digital switch. Those were his words. So, I will not be able to get channel 7 from the antenna you or tselectric recommended?

Thanks.

A B SWITCH HELP NEEDED
i need an A B switch that is RF controled or another way to switch my Chicago antenna and 2nd Dish receiver output that both come into the basement and from that point I have only one cable. Dish is on channel 60 from my living room. I would like to switch or combine Chicago antenna and Dish output to the one cable going to the kitchen set. How can I do this?
Jim

try a splitter and a stereo RF modulator - if you can find one.

I use some of the ce labs stereo rf modulators 1001ST - guess they don't make them any more?!

watchin all milwaukee locals as well as wkow 27 out of madison tonight on my winegard hd8200p.
:):):):)

Thanks Gilbert, I ordered a Winegard HD8200 from Tselectric today but, they said they are out of stock. He suggested the hd7698p but, I held off. He said it was the same size. The difference is they have removed the Elements for Channel 7 and under. They are no longer needed in our area since the digital switch. Those were his words. So, I will not be able to get channel 7 from the antenna you or tselectric recommended?

Thanks.

Hi Tom,

They removed the elements from channel 6 and lower, not channel 7. So, you are fine by ordering the hd7698p.

watchin all milwaukee locals as well as wkow 27 out of madison tonight on my winegard hd8200p.
:):):):)

South Bend banging in like locals. WSBT pegging my signal meter out here. WSJV nice and strong on 28.

A B SWITCH HELP NEEDED
i need an A B switch that is RF controled or another way to switch my Chicago antenna and 2nd Dish receiver output that both come into the basement and from that point I have only one cable. Dish is on channel 60 from my living room. I would like to switch or combine Chicago antenna and Dish output to the one cable going to the kitchen set. How can I do this?
Jim

Hmmmm. Good question. They have manual A/B switches, and Radio Shack I think still sells one with RF...but you have to be line-of-sight for it to get a signal to change it. Can't help you here... :(

South Bend banging in like locals. WSBT pegging my signal meter out here. WSJV nice and strong on 28.

Kinda figured South Bend was homing in when I couldn't tune WQRF. They were just gone.

Haven't played with OTA and tropo for a while so I missed the band openings darn.:( Been watching quite a few channels ITC lately on c band satellite. Love when the programmers open up there master 1st generation feeds up for us. The picture quality is breathtaking :D

Just a heads up everyone...

Through Friday and possibly Sunday, we're likely going to experience significant tropo the next few nights. Dry air, coupled with slow warming aloft and cool nights near ground level should set up good ducting over the Great Lakes over the next 2-3 nights. Best chances will be tonight through Saturday morning.

Just a heads up everyone...

Through Friday and possibly Saturday, we're likely going to experience significant tropo the next few nights. Dry air, coupled with slow warming aloft and cool nights near ground level should set up good ducting over the Great Lakes over the next 2-3 nights. Best chances will be tonight through Friday morning.

Thanks for the update.

Hi bb4444,


What I suggest you do is connect your HD box via component or HDMI cable to your TV, and then use the RF for the antenna. Yes, you would bypass your box, and you wouldn't be able to record anything off of it, UNLESS that larger antenna helped out (which it should). Now...

Something tells me you're a Packers or Brewers fan, and you have the right idea on the antenna, and so does your installer. I would advise them to go with the 7697...we get some interesting (in a good way) reception reports from it here on AVS.

Just my $.02, and I hope that helps you!


As I figured you guys have been very helpful but you are starting to lose me...here is my summary with a follow-up question or 2 at the end:

A few alternate antennas were mentioned. I understand (at least high level) why, larger, with more range, and larger db gain numbers for some channels. Higher mount on roof would likely help.

Some talks of a different converter box and/or tuner generation were made. The installer only conencted the antenna through my Dish Net VIP 722 antenna in connection. They did not try it directly connected to the nearby tv, which is a 3 yr old LCD Samsung LN-S4041D (it as you probably all know has an AIR antenna in connection). Because of recent issues with DISH the sensitivity of that tuner was reduced. It is possible connecting to the tv directly would have pulled in Milwaukee better because it MAY HAVE a more sensitive tuner. I lose DVR funtion this way (which is ok). What does a Zenith DTT 900/901 do for me?

I didn't admit earlier, but I want Packer games. Not the best admission to make on a Chicago forum, I realize.

So, larger, better, higher mounted antenna may solve issue. Connecting to more sensitive tuner may have worked with equipment that was tried earlier.

Shouldn't the antenna installer here this week known of some of these options? Any one know of installer in NW suburbs that I might be able to make another attempt with? I am coming dangerously close to trying myself though....

Thanks to all!

So, larger, better, higher mounted antenna may solve issue. Connecting to more sensitive tuner may have worked with equipment that was tried earlier.

Shouldn't the antenna installer here this week known of some of these options? Any one know of installer in NW suburbs that I might be able to make another attempt with? I am coming dangerously close to trying myself though....

Thanks to all!

Hi BB,

Yep. When installing antennas, *in general*:

1. Bigger is better (bigger means more directional, and that means higher gain)
2. Higher is better (every 10' higher you go, signal increases on average by 50%)

Now, should the antenna installer have known this? Knowledge varies by installer, but they cannot know everything. That antenna they have is likely their choice for Chicago, not Milwaukee...they probably have never had a request to install one to get Milwaukee stations before.

I would even go one better and do the Winegard 7698...biggest and baddest there is. Same general design, just more elements for better pick-up.
Don't worry about converter boxes if your HDTV has an RF in. If your TV accepts RF in, you're golden.

If you do decide to do it yourself, be very careful. You'll need a tripod, mast, u-bolts, nuts, screws to bolt it to the home, RG-6 quad shield cable, and connectors, and equipment to splice the connectors. if you don't have the latter, I strongly suggest you call those guys back and have them get a special order for the 7698 antenna. Then you should be good to go!

Been watching quite a few channels ITC lately on c band satellite. Love when the programmers open up there master 1st generation feeds up for us. The picture quality is breathtaking :DPearls before swine. Probably better off mentioning something like that in the Technical or Programming forums, where they'd actually appreciate it (even if you're only talking about SD - it occasionally gets mentioned over there how good SD from FTA looks better overall than a lot of the "HD-Lite" out there now).

What does a Zenith DTT 900/901 do for me?
Nothing, really, as it's only a standard definition tuner, and you have an HD display.

There are a couple of newer HD tuners out (that are listed in the "Set-top box" sticky in the Technical forum here), but I don't think anybody knows for sure what generation chips they use. Might want to check out the new Centronics, and maybe the Prime DTV. I'm not sure of how new the latest K-World model is.

That antenna they have is likely their choice for Chicago, not Milwaukee...they probably have never had a request to install one to get Milwaukee stations before....

if you don't have the latter, I strongly suggest you call those guys back and have them get a special order for the 7698 antenna. Then you should be good to go!BB4444 should know that I'm in C.L., too, and a couple of years back, every installer I could find around here only did deal with setting you up for Chicago (and Rockford, which is only a couple or so miles further), as far as the standard antenna and amp they use (and they all used the same ones - they were both Winegards, but the antenna was a full range model for low-VHF).

They should order it if you request it, but if you have to you, just order the antenna yourself and see if they'll install it (I say "should", because they normally want to order it themselves for 1.) warranty/work guarantee reasons - at least that's what they'll tell you - which leads to 2.) so they can overcharge you for it - or at least charge you retail.

Is there a good Omni directional attenna or any antenna for that matter that will help me get all the Chicago and Milwaukee channels regardless of where it's pointing? I have a really big antenna up there now with a 24 db booster pointing at chicago and I get all the Chicago channels and some Milwaukee. The weird thing is that I had an antenna up there that was only 1/3 the size and it was pointed backwards towards Chicago but it got all the Chicago and all the Milwaukee channels with some breakup here and there but mostly stable. I want both ABC's CBS's and FOX's for the football season. What is my best option before the season starts? Thanks in advance - Josh My zip code is 53170 to give an idea of my location and range.

Is there a good Omni directional attenna or any antenna for that matter that will help me get all the Chicago and Milwaukee channels regardless of where it's pointing? I have a really big antenna up there now with a 24 db booster pointing at chicago and I get all the Chicago channels and some Milwaukee. The weird thing is that I had an antenna up there that was only 1/3 the size and it was pointed backwards towards Chicago but it got all the Chicago and all the Milwaukee channels with some breakup here and there but mostly stable. I want both ABC's CBS's and FOX's for the football season. What is my best option before the season starts? Thanks in advance - Josh My zip code is 53170 to give an idea of my location and range.If you use an omni-directional antenna it won't discriminate between the direct signal you want and an echo or reflection or co-channel interference you don't want, which will reduce reliability and cause station blackouts. To avoid, it's best to have two antennas pointed at the cities you want, with separate wires to a switch at the back of your receiver, so you can select the antenna pointed at the city you want to watch.

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Antennas-Direct-DB8-Multi-Directional-HDTV-Antenna_W0QQitemZ250457630625QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDo main_0?hash=item3a507027a1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14 Hows this antenna according to my previous post? Is there a way I can make the stup I have now work so I don't have to blow more money?

Hi all - been lurking for months on and off...

Any other options for me that any of you can think of?

Thanks!First off, welcome aboard!

I'm in Northwest Indiana and we had to have our antenna replaced a few months ago (old one totally messed up and spun itself around somehow; course it was over 20 years old) and went with an HD7698P Winegard antenna with a rotor hooked to it. It really gets great reception for all of Chicago stations, plus from other markets around (like South Bend), I get WSBT and (most times) WSJV pretty darn reliable about every day. (The other South Bend ones (WNDU, WNIT, WHME), I only get on occasion, unless I turn the antenna.)

I recall you mentioned about WITI FOX 6--I get that somedays, but it's a little hard to get it even with the rotor (course I am pretty far away from that market).

And just in case you were wondering, I get channel 7 with this antenna, so you won't be losing WLS, since you mentioned it. (I'll only lose it here and there if the atmosphere changes come about.)

But if you are still considering, I would recommend, as others posts above mentioned, the 7698 antenna. It's just a very good antenna and I think that you would be pleased with it.

If you use an omni-directional antenna it won't discriminate between the direct signal you want and an echo or reflection or co-channel interference you don't want, which will reduce reliability and cause station blackouts. To avoid, it's best to have two antennas pointed at the cities you want, with separate wires to a switch at the back of your receiver, so you can select the antenna pointed at the city you want to watch.

Thanks for the reply. When I tried to use the other antenna it wouldnt pick up anything without an amp. So I guess that will be my next step. Pick up an amp and try it.

Pearls before swine. Probably better off mentioning something like that in the Technical or Programming forums, where they'd actually appreciate it (even if you're only talking about SD - it occasionally gets mentioned over there how good SD from FTA looks better overall than a lot of the "HD-Lite" out there now).

HD lite is a joke, the sad thing is OTA HD is quickly becoming HD Lite. Channels 2, 32, and 50 are the only exception running one for one. Let's hope they stay that way.

You know, I almost typed up this post:

I'd be surprised to hear that 50 looks better than some of your other locals.

And then I remembered what subchannels your other locals have and suddenly, my post sounded silly.

- Trip

HD lite is a joke, the sad thing is OTA HD is quickly becoming HD Lite. Channels 2, 32, and 50 are the only exception running one for one. Let's hope they stay that way.

What bandwith does ABC give to their three subchannels?

I think the main ABC HD channel looks good.
The ABC HD subchannel is okay on non-moving images, but bad with moving images.
The ABC SD subchannel looks bad.

If they removed the SD subchannel and split the bandwith between their two HD channels, I think both would look awesome, with the HD subchannel becomming much better.

HD lite is a joke, the sad thing is OTA HD is quickly becoming HD Lite. Channels 2, 32, and 50 are the only exception running one for one. Let's hope they stay that way.

32 could add a subchannel and it wouldn't particularly matter, because of the way FOX transmits their network signal. Might as well use the bandwidth for something.

That's why I didn't mind when WITI6 added RTV. The main channel's bandwidth was going to be the same whether there was a subchannel or not.

I have a really big antenna up there now with a 24 db booster pointing at chicago and I get all the Chicago channels and some Milwaukee. The weird thing is that I had an antenna up there that was only 1/3 the size and it was pointed backwards towards Chicago but it got all the Chicago and all the Milwaukee channels with some breakup here and there but mostly stable.
The bigger the antenna, the more directional it is, generally, so it's not that weird.

What do you have up there now, and what was the smaller antenna you replaced (perhaps one of those ubiquitous Philips antennas from Menard's)?

Just a heads up everyone...

Through Friday and possibly Sunday, we're likely going to experience significant tropo the next few nights. Dry air, coupled with slow warming aloft and cool nights near ground level should set up good ducting over the Great Lakes over the next 2-3 nights. Best chances will be tonight through Saturday morning.

Thanks for the heads up, I'll try scanning late tonight and see if I get lucky again like I did a few weeks ago with getting WNDU for a few minutes. Even with the antenna being in the attic I managed that! Hopefully I can manage a few more channels, we'll see :)

interesting how wpwr 50.1 is in need of having its clock cleaned
it has been fast by 30 minutes or so for a couple weeks now

kd9fz
comments,criticisms and questions of sanity are always welcome

interesting how wpwr 50.1 is in need of having its clock cleaned
it has been fast by 30 minutes or so for a couple weeks now

kd9fz
comments,criticisms and questions of sanity are always welcome

They move to Newfoundland?:D

Tropo kicking in this evening some. Milwaukee stations are like local out here, but disappointing so far. The temperature inversion will get bigger over the next few nights, so this will get better.

The bigger the antenna, the more directional it is, generally, so it's not that weird.

What do you have up there now, and what was the smaller antenna you replaced (perhaps one of those ubiquitous Philips antennas from Menard's)?

The smaller antenna would have been this one

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3740640

The one up there now is similar to this one

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3740642

Tropo kicking in this evening some. Milwaukee stations are like local out here, but disappointing so far. The temperature inversion will get bigger over the next few nights, so this will get better.

Tropo from Milwaukee was better than South Bend here last night.

Tropo from Milwaukee was better than South Bend here last night.

It was pretty disappointing down here last night :( I didn't really get anything extra. I'll try over the next few nights since conditions should be better for it and my chances for getting extra stuff will improve. Couldn't even manage channels 13 or 61 last night.

At certain points when I scan my tv, it will stop for a bit..like hold at 3% for a few minutes like it's trying to grab stuff but some days it just can't do it. I guess it needs to be able to re-construct and hold a high percentage, or at least high enough for it to be watchable before I can see a channel. Sometimes a scan can take less than 5 minutes, others up to 10 especially if tropo conditions are great. The night I got WNDU briefly it took around 10 minutes to scan.

WGN has already dropped out for me tonight.

Last night was the first night ever, since I started watching DTV in 2002, that all stations, except for ch50, dropped out. It must have been a heck of a tropo opening.

The Tropo is really rocking tonight guys, WMBD 31-1 from Peoria is really rockin over here solid since about 11:00, and WKOW was solid this morning, watched the am news.

Tribune story on WLS power boost (today) and switch to 44, perhaps by mid-October (with continuing operation on RF#7).
www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-biz-wls-sept4,0,1577535.story

BTW, what will a tuner do when both RF#7 and RF#44 map to 7-1, 7-2 and 7-3?

Tribune story on WLS power boost (today) and switch to 44, perhaps by mid-October (with continuing operation on RF#7).
www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-biz-wls-sept4,0,1577535.story

BTW, what will a tuner do when both RF#7 and RF#44 map to 7-1, 7-2 and 7-3?

They went from 4.75 kw to 9.5 kw on channel 7 around 2 PM. Their signal should now be on par with WBBM.

Your tuner may have two 7.1's, 7.2's and 7.3's when 44 signs on.

BTW, what will a tuner do when both RF#7 and RF#44 map to 7-1, 7-2 and 7-3?That depends on the tuner.  It may


refuse to map the channel from the second station it finds;
clobber the channel from the first station it found with that from the second station when it finds it; or
give you two 7.1's, two 7.2's, and two 7.3's.

Tropo is rockin from South Bend and Milwaukee right now.

They went from 4.75 kw to 9.5 kw on channel 7 around 2 PM. Their signal should now be on par with WBBM.

Your tuner may have two 7.1's, 7.2's and 7.3's when 44 signs on.

Since I get 7 great now I won't rescan. I kinda hate rescanning each time you want to find a new digital. You should just enter in the true RF number an tell it to map when you want to save it. That's how I would design the add function in these TV's and STB's. Listening Manufacturers :eek:

A lot of tuners do let you just enter the RF channel to add a new station, TVropro.

And turn off autoscan? I have that problem with my DISH DTVPals. They scan on their own for new channels. On a tropo night new channels are added as they are found. I have to go in and delete them all to clean up the guide. :(

Hi Gilbert,
Just a confirmation that we received approval from the FCC this afternoon to raise power for DTV Channel 7 from 4.75kW to 9.5kW and we wasted no time and went up at 3PM!:) We are in the final stages of getting approval to move to CH44 at 473.5kW ..more to come on that soon.
Kal

Hi Gilbert,
Just a confirmation that we received approval from the FCC this afternoon to raise power for DTV Channel 7 from 4.75kW to 9.5kW and we wasted no time and went up at 3PM!:) We are in the final stages of getting approval to move to CH44 at 473.5kW ..more to come on that soon.
Kal

Hee hee! Yep, I saw it. :-) Congrats on 44 and high power! Well, your boss beat ya...she says up by mid-October, so I'm guessing that came from you. ;)
It will be nice to pick you up in my office again! Catch you later...

A lot of tuners do let you just enter the RF channel to add a new station, TVropro.


The Zenith STB will allow you to enter in an RF channel but you will only get a .1, to get all the sub channels you have to autoscan. My Magnavox STB and my Sharp Aquos HDTV you have to do a complete rescan to add anything digital.:(

Which box will allow you to put in like RF 33 (WITI) and scan in 6.1 and 6.2?

And turn off autoscan? I have that problem with my DISH DTVPals. They scan on their own for new channels. On a tropo night new channels are added as they are found.


Oh thats brilliant :eek:

Tropo is rockin from South Bend and Milwaukee right now.

I can see WSBT all the way up here in Crystal Lake. WNDU is still canceling out WQRF for me. I can also see a hint of analog 24 from VALPO.