Chicago, IL - OTA [Text View] - Page 30

Rammitinski

11-01-09, 03:28 AM

For OTA network broadcasts of college and professional major sports (football, basketball, baseball, and hockey), is the PQ really so poor that all a 46" HD TV will buy me is a clearer view of digital artifacts as compared to a CECB coupled with a 27" SD TV (Sony)?WMAQ (NBC), WLS (ABC) and WGN (CW) are all pretty bad (and between them, they show all 4 sports you mentioned). WLS is really soft and lacks fine detail. It also has a lot of "dirty" mosquito noise that I've been noticing lately, on faces and clothes when people are shown from medium distance.

WTTW (PBS) isn't all that great, either, on certain nature scenes - like cheetahs chasing prey or running water (but at least there's no sports on it). WFLD (FOX) shows occasional microblocking on very fast movement - like Nascar close-ups - and they don't even have any subchannels. Their Baseball and Football don't show much fine detail, either, and often don't look much better than widescreen SD to me (like ABC now). But that's not really a local issue.

Hockey seems to be pretty bearable to me (on WMAQ and WGN) - but then, they don't really show that much of it, and the worst artifacts are on close-ups of the players and scenes - and with Hockey they seem to stick more to the far, wider shots. The AHL Wolves are shown here now on WPWR (MyTV - or whatever it is these days) - only thing is, they're in 16:9 SD - and it's not very good SD - lots of double image-type "ringing".

Sports still look very presentable on WCIU (independent), but to my eyes it's lost some detail since the earlier days (maybe it's just a tad softer or something). Some people will probably argue with me here about that, but that's how it appears to me, anyway. I don't really notice any blocking on it, though.

WBBM (CBS) has no subchannels, is 1080i, and is pretty much the benchmark around here - although I do see a little blocking on that, too, during close-ups on Football games from time to time (some will probably argue with me about that one, too, but I know I'm not imagining it - maybe their eyes and brain just aren't as sensitive as mine).

I would say that with WCIU, with the Sox, Flubs and Boo-wulls (they're all fairly watchable on WGN, too - as long as they don't start showing close-ups), CBS (Football), FOX (Baseball, Football, Auto Racing), and the Hawks/Hockey on WGN and WMAQ, it's probably about as good as you're going to get these days.

It's NBC and ABC that generally get the most complaints around here - especially on Football, Basketball and the Olympics (WGN elicits it's share of bi***ing, too).

It's up to you as to whether you want to try and watch it on a 46", hi-rez display or not - but just remember - it's likely to get even worse as time goes on. If you're planning on watching a lot of Blu-ray, though, you're probably going to want a halfway-decent sized display. Otherwise, what would be the sense?

Relative to this thread, I probably am one of the worst complainers about this kind of stuff. But over in the programming threads, my complaints pale in comparison to many. So make of that what you will.

tvropro

11-01-09, 07:36 AM

WMAQ (NBC), WLS (ABC) and WGN (CW) are all pretty bad (and between them, they show all 4 sports you mentioned). WLS is really soft and lacks fine detail. It also has a lot of "dirty" mosquito noise that I've been noticing lately, on faces and clothes when people are shown from medium distance.

WTTW (PBS) isn't all that great, either, on certain nature scenes - like cheetahs chasing prey or running water (but at least there's no sports on it). WFLD (FOX) shows occasional microblocking on very fast movement - like Nascar close-ups - and they don't even have any subchannels. Their Baseball and Football don't show much fine detail, either, and often don't look much better than widescreen SD to me (like ABC now). But that's not really a local issue.

Hockey seems to be pretty bearable to me (on WMAQ and WGN) - but then, they don't really show that much of it, and the worst artifacts are on close-ups of the players and scenes - and with Hockey they seem to stick more to the far, wider shots. The AHL Wolves are shown here now on WPWR (MyTV - or whatever it is these days) - only thing is, they're in 16:9 SD - and it's not very good SD - lots of double image-type "ringing".

Sports still look very presentable on WCIU (independent), but to my eyes it's lost some detail since the earlier days (maybe it's just a tad softer or something). Some people will probably argue with me here about that, but that's how it appears to me, anyway. I don't really notice any blocking on it, though.

WBBM (CBS) has no subchannels, is 1080i, and is pretty much the benchmark around here - although I do see a little blocking on that, too, during close-ups on Football games from time to time (some will probably argue with me about that one, too, but I know I'm not imagining it - maybe their eyes and brain just aren't as sensitive as mine).

I would say that with WCIU, with the Sox, Flubs and Boo-wulls (they're all fairly watchable on WGN, too - as long as they don't start showing close-ups), CBS (Football), FOX (Baseball, Football, Auto Racing), and the Hawks/Hockey on WGN and WMAQ, it's probably about as good as you're going to get these days.

It's NBC and ABC that generally get the most complaints around here - especially on Football, Basketball and the Olympics (WGN elicits it's share of bi***ing, too).

It's up to you as to whether you want to try and watch it on a 46", hi-rez display or not - but just remember - it's likely to get even worse as time goes on. If you're planning on watching a lot of Blu-ray, though, you're probably going to want a halfway-decent sized display. Otherwise, what would be the sense?

Relative to this thread, I probably am one of the worst complainers about this kind of stuff. But over in the programming threads, my complaints pale in comparison to many. So make of that what you will.

I have a solution to all the digital artifacts. Go to your local thrift store pick up a 13" analog color set for $5.00 toss a converter box on it and enjoy beautiful quality digital. :rolleyes: I just had to say it LOL :D

andyross63

11-01-09, 08:43 AM

For stations that are available both OTA and via cable (Comcast in my area), is there any difference in PQ depending on the transport mode or is the issue the bit-starving at the source?
AFAIK, the local broadcast carried by Comcast are identical to OTA. Comcast gets the data either directly from the station through some fiber connection, or via an antenna (WYIN must be antenna, as I've seen lots of breakups at times.) Comcast pairs 2 broadcast channels, including their subchannels, per frequency. 256QAM has double the bandwidth of ATSC. The only modification is recreating the PSIP info. They don't pass on program description info, just the title.

saxhound

11-01-09, 09:39 AM

Elmhurst (15 miles west)
CM Stealthtenna with internal amp on roof
Dish 622 or Dish 222 receiver
VHF 7 = 100% (same as before)
UHF 44 = 94%

Awesomeness

11-01-09, 10:29 AM

In following this forum since last winter I detect a theme that most of the stations in the market have decided to maximize the number of subchannels at the expense of picture quality, especially with their primary HD signal. For stations that are available both OTA and via cable (Comcast in my area), is there any difference in PQ depending on the transport mode or is the issue the bit-starving at the source? For OTA network broadcasts of college and professional major sports (football, basketball, baseball, and hockey), is the PQ really so poor that all a 46" HD TV will buy me is a clearer view of digital artifacts as compared to a CECB coupled with a 27" SD TV (Sony)? I understand the HD TV does offer a better viewing experience with both standard and Blu-ray DVD media but my viewing habits are slanted to live sports vs. movies on DVD.

I had Comcast and I do not recall the picture quality being better than OTA. On some stations, OTA is much better than Comcast. On others, it is about the same. I don't remember CBS being all that great on Comcast, but it looks better OTA. Stations like FOX don't have any subchannels and nobody says their picture is better than NBC which does have substations. It all depends on the network. Stations like WCIU/MeTV/MeToo/ThisChicago have mutiple subchannels and they all look good. Stations like PBS have less subchannels and they look poor. It all depends on how good the people at the network are, like any business. You get good people working at one place and they will turn out a great product.

videoguy60467

11-01-09, 01:28 PM

I had Comcast and I do not recall the picture quality being better than OTA. On some stations, OTA is much better than Comcast. On others, it is about the same. I don't remember CBS being all that great on Comcast, but it looks better OTA. Stations like FOX don't have any subchannels and nobody says their picture is better than NBC which does have substations. It all depends on the network. Stations like WCIU/MeTV/MeToo/ThisChicago have mutiple subchannels and they all look good. Stations like PBS have less subchannels and they look poor. It all depends on how good the people at the network are, like any business. You get good people working at one place and they will turn out a great product.

Here in Elgin, Comcast vs. OTA looks the same regardless of channel. According to other forum members, this is because in most cases they pass the signal without any additional compression. I have tested this via QAM tuner and the Motorola DVR via HDMI, and the result is always the same on my 65" Mits 1080P DLP.

I also think that most viewers would agree that Fox PQ is very good if not quite up to WBBM standards. The quality on Fox seems to be very dependent on the originating program.

I agree that WCIU does the best job of any station with sub channels. I think it's a combination of having some of the best encoding equipment, and also having an outstanding engineering staff that truly cares about delivering a quality product. Some stations don't even want to admit that they have a problem, ala WMAQ. When you let them know how poor SNF looks, they try to blame Comcast. This is after telling them that the macro-blocking was also a problem on OTA / Antenna. :rolleyes:

Lord Vader

11-01-09, 01:33 PM

veets

11-01-09, 02:15 PM

RF44 is now at 90% here in Grayslake. RF7 is down to 70%, but no breakups. RF44 is now one of my strongest channels. Nice!

Once WLS finishes their antenna construction, do they plan on adding power to get up to their approved 473 kW?

videoguy60467

11-01-09, 02:19 PM

FOX's HD PQ isn't nearly as good as CBS's on the NFL games, that's for sure. On the DBStalk forum I posted a thread and poll about this. I've got both a plasma HDTV and a Samsung LED DLP HDTV. On both, CBS's 1080i PQ is much superior to FOX's 720p PQ. It's not even close.

This difference, BTW, exists both on the DirecTV-delivered local as well as my OTA feed. So much for 720p being better than 1080i.

I agree that Fox games are noticeably softer than CBS games. They rarely have macro-blocking issues though. I think NBC Games start out great, and get degraded here by WMAQ.

Rammitinski

11-01-09, 03:09 PM

OK - I take back what I said about WBBM - at least in today's Bears' game. I really don't see any hint of blocking at all. But I have seen a tiny bit in the past on occasion (the Bears in the Super Bowl a few years ago comes to mind - it was pretty noticable that day). It must depend on the game or something.

veets

11-01-09, 03:12 PM

sebenste

11-01-09, 03:22 PM

FOX's HD PQ isn't nearly as good as CBS's on the NFL games, that's for sure. On the DBStalk forum I posted a thread and poll about this. I've got both a plasma HDTV and a Samsung LED DLP HDTV. On both, CBS's 1080i PQ is much superior to FOX's 720p PQ. It's not even close.

This difference, BTW, exists both on the DirecTV-delivered local as well as my OTA feed. So much for 720p being better than 1080i.

The difference between 720p and 1080i is small in terms of bits being made available. The problem, usually, and this goes for any network, is how many bits start out...and then eventually hit your TV. For FOX, watch NASCAR and tell me the picture is bad. FOX is in the process of replacing their encoders and splicers, and that will definitely help in the months to come.

tvropro

11-01-09, 05:13 PM

Source of a broadcast be it a game or whatever can be at fault but not very much. Take channel 9 and the CW programming. I noticed the digital artifacts on channel 9, so then I switch over to my C band satellite system and look at the broadcast master feed, it's clear without the artifacts so in this case it's channel 9. ION on 38 is another one when I look at the satellite master feeds clean again. Most of the time the satellite master feeds are pretty damn good. They get butchered by the OTA affiliates. FOX actually puts up some very good backhauls too.

sebenste

11-01-09, 05:51 PM

usmaak

11-01-09, 06:22 PM

swiat

11-01-09, 06:37 PM

When is WLS going to update the OTA guide mappings from 7 to 44 with Tribune Media/Zap2it? Reason I am asking is that I have the AM21 OTA receiver from DirecTV and I'm hoping the change will default my OTA 7-1 to UHF channel 44. It's inevitable, just wonder when.

Kal Hassan

11-01-09, 09:49 PM

usmaak

11-01-09, 10:47 PM

Is there anyone that can tell me what I need to do with my vip722 to get it to pick up 7 on 44? I've tried everything I can think of, but it's still picking up VHF 7, and not 44. I've run out of ideas.The reason that I thought my dish receiver was still using the VHF signal was because the signal strength is exactly the same now as it was last night, after an hour of tuning the rabbit ears. But it turns out that I actually am getting the right broadcast now. I know this because I can now move the rabbit ears wherever I want and it makes not difference with the strength of the signal.

I am getting 74% on WLS right now. I get 100% on NBC, 100% on WGN, and 95% on FOX. I was sort of expecting to get a similar signal on WLS once the switch to 44 took place. Was I expecting too much?

dicko2

11-01-09, 10:47 PM

Now that WCHU is off, WLS CH44 is a solid 100% (6 green bars) on my tuner in Woodstock.

Kal Hassan

11-02-09, 12:01 AM

Hi. I need a little help. I've been getting a steady 72 or 73 on WLS on my Dish vip722 receiver. Tonight, that's at 68. How can I get WLS on channel 44? I rescanned, but channel 7 is still showing 68 percent. Does this mean that I'm getting 44? Because if I am, it's worse than what I was getting on channel 7.

Thanks for any help.

Here is a procedure you can try. It worked on my VIP622 DVR receiver.
Go to Menu and press System Setup tab.
Next pick Local Channels tab
You should see a list of local channels that are in memory
Highlight the boxes next to 7-1,7-2 and 7-3 and Delete them ( use delete Tab)
Press Add Locals tab
You should see a box with Transmit Number and Channel number
Enter 44 for the Transmit Number (highlight the tab first)
Channel number should now show 7 and Signal Strength bar should be green
Press the Done tab.
7-1,7-2 and 7-3 will now be reinstated in Local Channels from RF44

Please post if this works for you!
Thanks
Kal
DOE for WLS-TV

jmmilner

11-02-09, 12:53 AM

The Clearstream 2 antenna that previously served a small business has vanished and I need to install a replacement. The CS2 was co-located with an 802.11 directional antenna on a short J mast attached to a wooden pallet, weighed with cinder blocks, atop a rooftop HVAC unit (net about 8' above the flat roof). Since everything vanished, I'm free to relocate the new antenna anywhere on the roof since a whole new mounting system will be required anyway.

The roof itself is essentially a 70' x 120' flat piece of metal with a rubberized membrane. Aside from the 6 HVAC units, there is also a corner of the building which is elevated another 6'.

I'm assuming the metal roof is a ground plane and that the further away from it I get, the better, but by how much? Does the 3dB per 10' rule of thumb thrown around for residential antenna elevation apply here? At the cost of additional RG6 length (3dB per 100') I could locate the antenna on the edge of the roof closest to the transmitters (44.1 miles LOS) rather than in the center or atop the raised corner section. Any rough guess as to the benefit (in dB)? What I'm trying to do is trade-off position on the roof and height of the antenna verses the additional RG6 distances.

Here's the TV Fool for the site: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d8adf68da215595

tvropro

11-02-09, 07:49 AM

swiat,
Good question. Once we are confident CH44 is working out ok, I will ask Tribune Media Guide to make the switch. As it stands, we scrambled and built out a temporary transmitter facility for CH44 and we are not transmitting at our licensed power level of 473 kW...we are aiming for 346 kW for now. But I have a lot of confidence we are going to be ok now!:)
Kal
DOE for WLS-TV

RF 44 is down at about 75% vs 95 on RF 7 by me. Im by Midway airport with a VHF/UHF good outdoor antenna system. Is part of the problem with the reduction in signal because your old channel 52 antenna is not resonant for 44? or is it because RF 43 an RF 45 are getting into your digital pedestal (adjacent channel interference) lowering the S/N ratio and messing with the BER. 52 had about the same signal as I show on RF 7. Increasing the power from 346 to 473 kw may amount to a 1 db increase if everything else is up to par already. If so you guys may want to ask the FCC for double power so you guys can get a 3 db increase.

stwhoges

11-02-09, 12:02 PM

Hvs,

I was wondering if you could check a couple things:

1) The clock/times seems to be incorrect since we changed time this weekend. Every other channels seems to have the right time, but it seems that any of the 26's are an hour behind the actual time

2) I was wondering if you could check the schedules for all the stations (WCIU, MeTV, MeToo), since I know especially that MeTV (and some shows are new on MeToo, as well as schedule shifting on WCIU) made some changes to schedules/shows today. Who knows, maybe it's wrong at the provider too and that's the trouble with the guide data on the converter boxes; just suggesting. I just wanted to make you aware that the guide data is incorrect/off for those 3 stations and just wanted to mention it. :)

hvs10trk

11-02-09, 01:10 PM

zzzzz

11-02-09, 02:24 PM

RF 44 is down at about 75% vs 95 on RF 7 by me. Im by Midway airport with a VHF/UHF good outdoor antenna system.

I'm seeing the same thing in Chicago Ridge with several different tuners/antennas:

Samsung 46" on large apartment master antenna: RF7 shows 10/10, RF44 shows 6/10.

Accurian HD tuner on home made 4 bay UHF antenna: RF7 shows 91% (really), RF44 shows 71%.

Samsung SIR-T451 on Radio Shack 15-1880 (UHF) and flattened rabbit ears (18" per "ear" for VHF): RF7 shows 10/10, RF44 shows 6/10.

I can pick up 23-2 on RF39 with more signal strength than I can RF44. I was even getting WCHU at a higher signal strength (around 8 to 9 / 10 or about 85% depending on which tuner/antenna was being used) than WLS on RF44.

So what gives? Is WCHU still transmitting (and interfering with / being overpowered by RF44)? Or is RF44 directional to the north (as Veeps in Grayslake says he's getting it at 90%)? Or is it interference from WCPX on RF43 and/or WSNS on RF45?

stwhoges

11-02-09, 03:28 PM

1) Happens every time change for us. Device on our end needs to be rebooted.

2) Already re-uploaded them.

Thanks! :)

But now the guide data for both MeTV and MeToo are off, since it says "The Dick Van Dyke Show" is on now on MeTV, but actually "The Munsters" is on at the moment and then over on MeToo, the data says "The Wild Wild West", at 4pm but with the new schedule in effect, "The Rockford Files" will be on at 4pm. I know there's some new schedules that go in effect today, so that's what I was referencing before. Sorry to be confusing before; my apologies.

tvropro

11-02-09, 03:56 PM

I'm seeing the same thing in Chicago Ridge with several different tuners/antennas:

Samsung 46" on large apartment master antenna: RF7 shows 10/10, RF44 shows 6/10.

Accurian HD tuner on home made 4 bay UHF antenna: RF7 shows 91% (really), RF44 shows 71%.

Samsung SIR-T451 on Radio Shack 15-1880 (UHF) and flattened rabbit ears (18" per "ear" for VHF): RF7 shows 10/10, RF44 shows 6/10.

I can pick up 23-2 on RF39 with more signal strength than I can RF44. I was even getting WCHU at a higher signal strength (around 8 to 9 / 10 or about 85% depending on which tuner/antenna was being used) than WLS on RF44.

So what gives? Is WCHU still transmitting (and interfering with / being overpowered by RF44)? Or is RF44 directional to the north (as Veeps in Grayslake says he's getting it at 90%)? Or is it interference from WCPX on RF43 and/or WSNS on RF45?

Well as the crow flys you would be in line with my signal coming from downtown to the SW. Possibly were in a null spot or something. I tried other antenna's, etc and it shows the same thing. I can only think that RF 44 is getting hammered by 43 & 45 our way and it's getting into the digital pedestal of 44 as noise. This will widen the skirts of 44 with noise and cause errors and reduced quality. (see example attached)

hvs10trk

11-02-09, 05:59 PM

Thanks! :)

But now the guide data for both MeTV and MeToo are off, since it says "The Dick Van Dyke Show" is on now on MeTV, but actually "The Munsters" is on at the moment and then over on MeToo, the data says "The Wild Wild West", at 4pm but with the new schedule in effect, "The Rockford Files" will be on at 4pm. I know there's some new schedules that go in effect today, so that's what I was referencing before. Sorry to be confusing before; my apologies.

Not confusing at all. Very appreciated notifications. I was aware of a few bumps in the road, but now I'll take a closer look. God bless time changes. :eek:

Awesomeness

11-02-09, 06:56 PM

What happened to the ROCKFORD FILES????

NO!!!!!!!!

I need to unwind when I get home from work, and that is watching the Rifleman followed by the Rockford Files. Now that the Rockford Files are broadcast while I am at work I am screwed.

Who at MeToo made the decision to take the Rockford Files out of prime time and move it to 4pm?

Awesomeness

11-02-09, 06:59 PM

stwhoges

11-02-09, 10:45 PM

Not confusing at all. Very appreciated notifications. I was aware of a few bumps in the road, but now I'll take a closer look. God bless time changes. :eek:

Well, those weren't the only examples of the incorrect data; those were just a few that I saw/noted at the time. There's more shows that were different than what the data guide showed. Just wanted to make sure you knew that there's more to the wrong data than just those 2. :)

justalurker

11-02-09, 11:35 PM

One thing I noticed on Oct 31st scanning the EPG data on TSReader was that the current show for all the WCIU sub-channels were there but the next wasn't. Complete data for 11pm on through the next few days was available but there was a gap between the 8pm shows and 11pm.

There were also overlapping shows at 1am ... but that was on ALL channels, not just WCIU. After all, they fell back and needed two 1am hours that night.

pm3839

11-03-09, 12:18 AM

......Would there be any improvement if I purchased the smallest outdoor antenna (small because it would be kept indoors by a window). .....Is there any UHF antenna since most chicago stations are UHF. .....

heres an interesting new hi-band vhf/uhf antenna to consider....its meant to be outdoors but its small enough to be easily mounted in an attic, or maybe in a closet or on a wall....

i have not tested one of these but it looks like it may be promising....there might be a thread on it here on AVS....

Winegard FreeVision FV-HD30 Compact Outdoor Indoor DTV Antenna
Receives High Band VHF and UHF Signals
Dimensions 20.57”w x 12.98”h x 6.20”d
Weight 1.12 lbs
http://www.winegard.com/freevision/
http://images.solidsignal.com//iview.asp?p=FV-HD30&xzoom=Large-3#xview

http://pimages.solidsignal.com/FV-HD30_2_zoom.jpg
http://images.solidsignal.com//iview.asp?p=FV-HD30&xzoom=Large-3#xview

Kal Hassan

11-03-09, 02:12 AM

RF 44 is down at about 75% vs 95 on RF 7 by me. Im by Midway airport with a VHF/UHF good outdoor antenna system. Is part of the problem with the reduction in signal because your old channel 52 antenna is not resonant for 44? or is it because RF 43 an RF 45 are getting into your digital pedestal (adjacent channel interference) lowering the S/N ratio and messing with the BER. 52 had about the same signal as I show on RF 7. Increasing the power from 346 to 473 kw may amount to a 1 db increase if everything else is up to par already. If so you guys may want to ask the FCC for double power so you guys can get a 3 db increase.

Thanks. We plan to ask for more power. Probably as close to 1 MW as we can get without causing interference. Also we are working on better antenna options.This was just Phase 1 of 3 phases.
Kal

Rammitinski

11-03-09, 04:04 AM

WOCH analog is back on the air. Still Arirang programming, and not KBS.

hvs10trk

11-03-09, 05:57 AM

Well, those weren't the only examples of the incorrect data; those were just a few that I saw/noted at the time. There's more shows that were different than what the data guide showed. Just wanted to make sure you knew that there's more to the wrong data than just those 2. :)

Dove into MeTV's data on the train home. :eek: I'm afraid to look at MeToo.

ProjectSHO89

11-03-09, 07:18 AM

heres an interesting new hi-band vhf/uhf antenna to consider....its meant to be outdoors but its small enough to be easily mounted in an attic, or maybe in a closet or on a wall....

i have not tested one of these but it looks like it may be promising....there might be a thread on it here on AVS....

Previous thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1191523

tvropro

11-03-09, 07:29 AM

Thanks. We plan to ask for more power. Probably as close to 1 MW as we can get without causing interference. Also we are working on better antenna options.This was just Phase 1 of 3 phases.
Kal

Thanks for the reply. I hope you guys can get all plans up and running before you pull RF 7 down. You also really need to look into the bitstarve issues with 7.1 since 7.2 went HD. I understand there are only so many bits to use, but to destroy your flagship (7.1) to give those to 7.2 with Im sure very little viewership is just dumb. If this is a corporate HQ decision they need to rethink this one and put Livewell at 480i or p widescreen at the most.

swiat

11-03-09, 10:23 AM

Thanks for the reply. I hope you guys can get all plans up and running before you pull RF 7 down. You also really need to look into the bitstarve issues with 7.1 since 7.2 went HD. I understand there are only so many bits to use, but to destroy your flagship (7.1) to give those to 7.2 with Im sure very little viewership is just dumb. If this is a corporate HQ decision they need to rethink this one and put Livewell at 480i or p widescreen at the most.

Seconded. 480i/p would look much less blocky at the same bitrate.

From what I've heard this is a corporate decision and the engineers have their hands tied, unfortunately. I have been trying, without success, to say to management that reserving such a high bitrate to a narrow viewing demographic is short-sighted. Does Nielsen even track the subchannel ratings?

kd9fz

11-03-09, 11:41 AM

anyone using MS windows media center with a tv tuner card
and has gotten wls rf44 to actually diplay a picture?

i can get rf44 set up and get 6 green bars on the antenna signal strength option
but just cant anythng but a blank when going to the channel

tried changing the atscchannel.xml file - no luck there

maybe will have to wait for MS to correct/enable it in the media guide down loads

kd9fz
comments, criticisms and questions of sanity are always welcome

retromzc

11-03-09, 11:53 AM

danwojciechowski

11-03-09, 12:37 PM

Hello all,

I am new to this forum and the OTA HDTV scene, so I apologize in advance.

I am having trouble currently receiving WBBM (2.1) and WLS (7.1,7.2,7.3). Hopefully once WLS finally switches to their new UHF RF channel I will be OK. What does concern me is that I cannot get channel 2.1 no matter how hard I try.

I have an attic mounted CM3016 antenna with as short a RG6 coax line as possible. I know that attic mounting is not the ideal situation, but my townhome association does not allow roof mounted antennas. I am in Roselle and according to antenna web i should be pointed at 113 degrees and I am a distance of 23.2 miles from the tower. No matter where I place the antenna in the attic or direction I point it, the best I have ever been able to muster up on WBBM and WLS is 33% or less. Thus no picture. I cannot put any larger of an antenna in the attic due to spacing of trusses, so a larger antenna is also unfortunatley out.

Is there anything else I can do to maybe get WBBM? I do not currently have a amplifier of any sort, would that help? If so, anybody have a suggestion as to a good model #.

On a side note, I read somewhere on the internet that WBBM applied for a construction permit to build a low-power fill in repeater on UHF channel 26 formerly used by WCIU. Anyone know if this is true or the progress on this? Im sure the FCC is probably dragging their feet if I had to guess. And does anyone know if after such a repeater is built if I might get better reception?

I should also add that I receive all other channels with a 88% to 100% rating according to My TivoHD without any dropouts at all.

Any help would be great.

Thanks

I'm about 35 miles away and I get WBBM and WLS at more than 90 on my TV's meter. I'm using a Winegard 7694P (Hi-VHF and UHF) in my attic with a Channel Master 7777 pre-amp. The 7694P appears to be smaller than your CM3016, so it would fit. Before I did that, I'd try adding a good pre-amp. I like the Channel Master 7777 and 7778 or the Winegard 8275. I don't know whether I could get WBBM and WLS in my attic without the pre-amp, but I doubt it. There is a lot of signal loss going through the asphalt shingles. Remember to make sure the path from the power supply of the pre-amp (usually installed by the TV) to the amplifier (installed on the pole under the antenna) is able to pass DC electrical current to power the pre-amp. That means if you have any splitters along the way, make sure the path from power supply to pre-amp uses the side of the splitter that passes DC.

Dan (Woj...)

Wireman134

11-03-09, 12:51 PM

RF 44 is down at about 75% vs 95 on RF 7 by me. Im by Midway airport with a VHF/UHF good outdoor antenna system. Is part of the problem with the reduction in signal because your old channel 52 antenna is not resonant for 44? or is it because RF 43 an RF 45 are getting into your digital pedestal (adjacent channel interference) lowering the S/N ratio and messing with the BER. 52 had about the same signal as I show on RF 7. Increasing the power from 346 to 473 kw may amount to a 1 db increase if everything else is up to par already. If so you guys may want to ask the FCC for double power so you guys can get a 3 db increase.

Same here, just noticed the blip in RF7, seen a segment on the news about rescanning for WLS and went ahead an scanned. Low and behold there is another WLS broadcast. Now I have two of each 7-1 thur 7-3. The RF44 signal is only 7 bars of 10. Not as strong as the RF7's 9-10 bars. This is a little weak because RF44's output is only 346kw and transmitting antenna is cut for channel 52 correct?:eek:

dicko2

11-03-09, 01:44 PM

kd9fz

If you're using win7, you just add it in manually.

If you're not using win7, delete any attempt you've made at manually adding it. Then delete the atscchannels.xml file. Then add it in manually. You should be able to tune it after adding. It will be the only thing in your guide other than your other manually channels. Then redownload the guide to recreate the atscchannels file.

judget

11-03-09, 03:48 PM

has anyone noticed that there are now many problems with wbbm tv (channel 2 on rf 12).....

i especially notice it when they do local broadcasing like the news versus network broadcast..

lots of breakups and poor signals as well.. i have the ota signal and a friend has the satellite signal from directv and it has the same problem... is something going on with the channel 2 signal....

any help would be appreciated

judget

11-03-09, 03:56 PM

hvs10trk:

i am just curious as to when your logisital nightmare might be over and we will get the "u" and its subs at the right power... just curious because this has been going on sice june and how was channel 7 able to fix the signal problem faster then you guys.. while your signal is better it is not what it is suppose to be...

judget

11-03-09, 03:57 PM

hvs10trk:

i forgot one other thing... i was watching me tv (26.2) i believe on saturday between trick or treaters... i noticed while watching all in the family it was in a wide screen or letterbox format that the commercials were not ... then when the dick van dyke show came on it was back to normal... what happened???

kilo2824

11-03-09, 04:52 PM

I'm about 35 miles away and I get WBBM and WLS at more than 90 on my TV's meter. I'm using a Winegard 7694P (Hi-VHF and UHF) in my attic with a Channel Master 7777 pre-amp. The 7694P appears to be smaller than your CM3016, so it would fit. Before I did that, I'd try adding a good pre-amp. I like the Channel Master 7777 and 7778 or the Winegard 8275. I don't know whether I could get WBBM and WLS in my attic without the pre-amp, but I doubt it. There is a lot of signal loss going through the asphalt shingles. Remember to make sure the path from the power supply of the pre-amp (usually installed by the TV) to the amplifier (installed on the pole under the antenna) is able to pass DC electrical current to power the pre-amp. That means if you have any splitters along the way, make sure the path from power supply to pre-amp uses the side of the splitter that passes DC.

Dan (Woj...)

Dan,

Thanks very much for the info... I'm going to go out in the next few days and purchase a pre amp (probably the channel master 7777). If it doesn't work I'll bring it back. I'll post back in a few days with the results.

On a side note I get WLS RF44 at 95% now so no issues with that anymore. Now it's just down to WBBM.

Ken

bakers12

11-03-09, 05:45 PM

Hey, hvs10trk!

I just rescanned on my Channel Master CM-7000 converter box and found channel 27-1 through 27-7. Seems to work just fine, but now I've got nothing on channel 26-1 through 26-6 or 48-1.

hvs10trk

11-03-09, 06:01 PM

hvs10trk

11-03-09, 06:16 PM

stwhoges

11-03-09, 09:35 PM

Dove into MeTV's data on the train home. :eek: I'm afraid to look at MeToo.

Well, so how's MeTV and MeToo looking yet? Just curious :)

OTA_GUY

11-03-09, 09:45 PM

kd9fz

11-04-09, 01:21 AM

sebenste

11-04-09, 01:47 AM

WCHU-LD's Special Temporary Authority request to the FCC for 15 kilowatts on channel 33 was granted, and they commenced broadcasting today. However, something is not right: Tonight, WWME-LD at 3.3 kilowatts is locking fine for me, as there's a weak tropo duct to my east that favors Chicago stations on the UHF band right now. Normally I can't get them to lock. Even though WCHU has the ability to go 15 kilowatts on 33, I'm barely locking them as I type this, and their picture is always breaking up.

Ahhhh, this explains why:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=TX1340355.html

They have a much more restrictive coverage area now, and throwing maybe a few kilowatts towards me in DeKalb.
That means north of Chicago, you have no hope of getting this station.

They still have their applications in to reject their 15 kilowatt application for channel 26 and get WLS at 4.75 kilowatts of power. I wouldn't mind seeing them on 7 if WLS decides to relenquish the channel, if they fixed their audio issues.

hvs10trk

11-04-09, 06:02 AM

dito

Should be corrected this morning.

hvs10trk

11-04-09, 06:03 AM

Well, so how's MeTV and MeToo looking yet? Just curious :)

Waiting on provider. "Probably" this morning. We'll see.

swiat

11-04-09, 10:28 AM

Trip in VA

11-04-09, 10:57 AM

NO NO NO! just when I started to get WITI reliably this happens.... I will check WITI tonight and if I have issues, another complaint is off to the FCC. I am still having trouble with WCGV due to that LP analog on UHF 25... and it has a nearly identical pattern. When the antenna is up that high the pattern isn't as tight as they wish it could be.

When will they learn????? Why can't these channels be forced in the 2-13 range?

My experience with complaining to the FCC about things like this is that they won't listen. It's "up to the station" to complain about interference, I was told. So when my local station refused to do anything about it, that was the end of that, especially since I'm outside the magic contour line.

Good luck to you. I think you'll be needing it.

- Trip

radioinsomnia

11-04-09, 11:32 AM

NO NO NO! just when I started to get WITI reliably this happens.... I will check WITI tonight and if I have issues, another complaint is off to the FCC.

Trip said it far more diplomatically than I could. Out-of-market means out-of-market. Good luck.

Trip in VA

11-04-09, 11:36 AM

In my case, I was actually in market but outside the coverage contour. They wouldn't even let me get that far in the story though; they just outright said the station had to file the complaint.

- Trip

swiat

11-04-09, 02:00 PM

I am in the coverage contour and I contacted the station engineer personally. I hope this helps. This channel 33 thing was sprung on us and it there's no logic to the channel assignment.

andyross63

11-04-09, 05:23 PM

Here in Schaumburg (apartment common antenna), WCHU is coming in fairly OK. In the upper-green part of the bar of my DTT901, still with no audio.

Both WLS's are pretty much the same, bouncing around the G and o of Good.

tvropro

11-04-09, 07:15 PM

NO NO NO! just when I started to get WITI reliably this happens.... I will check WITI tonight and if I have issues, another complaint is off to the FCC. I am still having trouble with WCGV due to that LP analog on UHF 25... and it has a nearly identical pattern. When the antenna is up that high the pattern isn't as tight as they wish it could be.

When will they learn????? Why can't these channels be forced in the 2-13 range?

Screw this OTA DXing ever since these low power joke stations started popping up years ago they have played havoc with it. It's not like back in the good old days when you had the regular high power locals and that was it. The FCC has made a big mess of the airwaves especially now by chopping off 52-69. I'll go back to my C and Ku band satellite. I can watch channels all over the world with that and never have to worry about conditions or some jerk in government screwing things up over a freaking dollar. Who the hell is WCHU anyway some more foreign crap? Just multicast the crap on some other foreign channels subchannel.

swiat

11-04-09, 07:52 PM

WCHU has completely wiped out FOX 6 WITI for me. I am pretty ticked off.
WCHU needs to move somewhere else. I was getting WITI very well before the bonehead move to put them on UHF 33.

bigdnwi

11-04-09, 08:16 PM

WCHU has completely wiped out FOX 6 WITI for me. I am pretty ticked off.
WCHU needs to move somewhere else. I was getting WITI very well before the bonehead move to put them on UHF 33.

WCGV complained and was able to force the low power 25 here to go to VHF Ch. 2 for digital (when they will actually move who knows). Maybe if WITI complains, they will force WCHU to move as well. Why WCHU wanted 33 is a mystery because they are basically cutting off the northern half of the market, although they were probably desperate since they got kicked off 44. In this case would VHF have been better for them, maybe Ch. 11. At least they could go omnidirectional.

Trip in VA

11-04-09, 08:31 PM

WCHU-LD has requested channel 7, but WLS doesn't seem like they're in a hurry to give it up.

- Trip

tvropro

11-04-09, 10:36 PM

WCHU-LD has requested channel 7, but WLS doesn't seem like they're in a hurry to give it up.

- Trip

Why does WLS need channel 7 anymore? Once they have 44 which they had to have 100%. All I can say is this whole digital transition has caused nothing but problems in so many ways. If Canada is smart they willl stay analog.

Anything the government is behind is screwed up :eek:

ALL LOW POWERED STATIONS SHOULD BE FORCED TO USE VHF.

Trip in VA

11-04-09, 10:40 PM

ALL LOW POWERED STATIONS SHOULD BE FORCED TO USE VHF.

I would disagree with this sentiment, but then, two of the big four networks are provided to me on UHF LP digital stations.

- Trip

swiat

11-04-09, 11:28 PM

I've got a "novel" concept for the FCC... Make a couple community digital stations. The stations pay rent to the owner for the rights to broadcast on a 480i subchannel. There would be 4-6 subchannels per community station. That would greatly help these ma and pa stations from popping up and causing as much co-channel interference. It's more spectrum efficient, too. There are too many low viewership stations with SD programming taking up 6 MHz of extremely bandwidth.

C'mon we have to think outside the box and make this work. The current way of assigning channels has too many co-channel issues. In Chicago, forcing these stations to VHF where there is a bunch of open spectrum yet is a good place. Elsewhere, where there is more UHF spectrum, sure, let them live there. We just don't have the room for them on UHF in this market given the co-channel adjacent market issues.

Imagine something like WCHI-LD on VHF 7 (made up call, perhaps)
x-1 KBC
x-2 azteca america
x-3 CCTV-9
x-4 polish or russian
x-5 home shopping network

sebenste

11-05-09, 12:04 AM

WCGV complained and was able to force the low power 25 here to go to VHF Ch. 2 for digital (when they will actually move who knows). Maybe if WITI complains, they will force WCHU to move as well. Why WCHU wanted 33 is a mystery because they are basically cutting off the northern half of the market, although they were probably desperate since they got kicked off 44. In this case would VHF have been better for them, maybe Ch. 11. At least they could go omnidirectional.

So here's what happened.

WCHU filed for 44, they got it, and signed it on. Then analog shutdown happened. WLS found out their signal stunk for most people. The only good UHF channels left were 44 and 49, 44 the best of the two. Now, WCHU knew this was coming, and had asked for 15 kilowatts on channel 26. But then WBBM filed for 15 kilowatts on channel 26. WBBM will likely get priority.
So, WCHU decides that they want 7, because hey, if you allow WLS to have 4.4 kilowatts, by golly, we should be able to have that too, because look at how many people have trouble getting WLS even at 4.4 kilowatts! But WLS wanted a 6 month transition time and got it, and so now, WCHU is stuck. They have to protect analog 33 in Rockford with Weigel's LP out there, AND the blowtorch WITI-DT 33 in Milwaukee. So, highly directional southwest they go, with no audio and all for thosse with LG/Zenith converter boxes (and others) on channel 33, the next available best slot, which is actually pretty bad.

44 and 49 were the best choices for full and low-power stations to go to; KBS and friends on analog 41 have channel 49 as a digital (and when that signs on, it'll get out). Now 44 is gone, and Venture Technologies gets the scraps, unfortunately.

If WBBM is denied (which I doubt), they'd move to 26 and wreck my signal of WKOW-DT. My guess is that they are on 33 permanently...unless, by a miracle, they grab 7 at 4.4 kw, which would set a precedent I don't think the FCC wants to do.

sebenste

11-05-09, 12:05 AM

sebenste

11-05-09, 01:44 AM

Tonight's FCC database had a few interesting local entries.

W40CN, Waubonsee College out in Sugar Grove, wants an initial 6 month extension to building out their 15 kilowatt facilities.

https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=804315&formid=337&q_num=5000

They are in severe financial hardship, and they all but said another 6 month extension is coming. I wonder if it will even get built out.

WMEU-CA analog channel 48 asks for another 6 months on analog. They were going to build out their digital facility, but that has been delayed indefinitely.

swiat

11-05-09, 10:15 AM

So here's what happened.

WCHU filed for 44, they got it, and signed it on. Then analog shutdown happened. WLS found out their signal stunk for most people. The only good UHF channels left were 44 and 49, 44 the best of the two. Now, WCHU knew this was coming, and had asked for 15 kilowatts on channel 26. But then WBBM filed for 15 kilowatts on channel 26. WBBM will likely get priority.
So, WCHU decides that they want 7, because hey, if you allow WLS to have 4.4 kilowatts, by golly, we should be able to have that too, because look at how many people have trouble getting WLS even at 4.4 kilowatts! But WLS wanted a 6 month transition time and got it, and so now, WCHU is stuck. They have to protect analog 33 in Rockford with Weigel's LP out there, AND the blowtorch WITI-DT 33 in Milwaukee. So, highly directional southwest they go, with no audio and all for thosse with LG/Zenith converter boxes (and others) on channel 33, the next available best slot, which is actually pretty bad.

44 and 49 were the best choices for full and low-power stations to go to; KBS and friends on analog 41 have channel 49 as a digital (and when that signs on, it'll get out). Now 44 is gone, and Venture Technologies gets the scraps, unfortunately.

If WBBM is denied (which I doubt), they'd move to 26 and wreck my signal of WKOW-DT. My guess is that they are on 33 permanently...unless, by a miracle, they grab 7 at 4.4 kw, which would set a precedent I don't think the FCC wants to do.

Well, to be fair, 33 is no more a usable channel than 8, 18, 25, 28, 34, 35, 40 or 46. So, why are those other channels considered occupied and somehow 33 is OK? And why aren't 3, 5, 9, 11 considered usable? 11 may have something over the lake, but these are open channels that should be used. There's nothing saying WCHU has to be on UHF. WCHU is causing harmful interference to a full powered station. Using the logic they are using it would be OK to set up a 15 kW LD directional to the northwest in Racine on UHF 19, 21, 27, 29, 31, 36, 43, 44, 45, 47, 51. That makes no sense either.

Now.. this doesn't even mention the fact WCHU will get hammered whenever the most minor tropospheric enhancement occurs.

Trip in VA

11-05-09, 10:27 AM

Well, to be fair, 33 is no more a usable channel than 8, 18, 25, 34, 35, 40 or 46. So, why are those other channels considered occupied and somehow 33 is OK?

8 - VHF.
18 - WSPY-LD, probably WYIN-17.
25 - W25DW-D.
34 - WEDE-CA.
35 - Unsure; could have been a coin flip between this and 33 for them.
40 - W40CN-D, WHCH-LD.
46 - WMEU-LD (even if it's not going to be built, it's still authorized and thus protected)

- Trip

swiat

11-05-09, 11:31 AM

8 - VHF.
18 - WSPY-LD, probably WYIN-17.
25 - W25DW-D.
34 - WEDE-CA.
35 - Unsure; could have been a coin flip between this and 33 for them.
40 - W40CN-D, WHCH-LD.
46 - WMEU-LD (even if it's not going to be built, it's still authorized and thus protected)

- Trip

Why is VHF an excuse? These are usuable channels. As far as I can tell, the FCC has not taken away VHF for TV. WEDE-CA should also be shut off. It is already on 62-2 and it also causes harmful interference to WISN. 25 has applied to move to 2 due to interference with WCGV. WSPY has farther separation between them and Milwaukee. 40 does also to a lesser extent.

WMEU has a LD app to move to 32. That is a SMART move. 46 has the 1MW WDJT on it.

This does not answer my other question why stations are given an entire 6 MHz of valuable bandwidth for a SD program very few people watch. This does not serve the public interest as a whole when considering the tradeoff of harmful interference to a full powered station.

It seems the FCC is taking an approach to put channels wherever they want for $$$ regardless of interference and only move them when the complaints from the TV stations roll in. WHAT A BACKWARD APPROACH! Why not consider the interference to BOTH stations BEFOREHAND and then assign channels that way.

VHF is underused. UHF is overused. Interference is bad and should be minimized as much as possible. Simple as that.

dattier

11-05-09, 12:28 PM

Also, I can't figure out why protecting the stations in Milwaukee and Rockford requires keeping WCHU-LD's signal south of Irving Park Road. Isn't that going overboard?

Trip in VA

11-05-09, 12:58 PM

Why is VHF an excuse? These are usuable channels. As far as I can tell, the FCC has not taken away VHF for TV.

Because VHF sucks. Nobody intelligent really wants to be there if you hope to be received with indoor antennas.

WEDE-CA should also be shut off. It is already on 62-2 and it also causes harmful interference to WISN.

The FCC does not discriminate based on programming.

25 has applied to move to 2 due to interference with WCGV.

My reading of their application is that they received interference from WCGV within the W25DW-D protected coverage area, not that they caused interference to WCGV.

VHF is underused.

With good reason.

EDIT: I want to clarify that I'm not disagreeing with the premise that they've shoved too many stations into the spectrum, but these are the rules the FCC has adopted. I'm simply pointing them out.

- Trip

tvropro

11-05-09, 02:32 PM

Now.. this doesn't even mention the fact WCHU will get hammered whenever the most minor tropospheric enhancement occurs.

Yeah if tropo gets going from the north WITI is going to stomp it. GOOD! Stupid FCC and there bone head decisions.

moxie1617

11-05-09, 02:36 PM

More good news about ABC on 44. I can pick it up now on the 1st floor on the side of the house that is away from the antenna using a RS 15-1880 and a CM7000.

Again I am located at: N 42 04' 46" W87 43' 5.5"
From antenna to me is 14.5 mi bearing 347 magnetic.

bigdnwi

11-05-09, 08:43 PM

Because VHF sucks. Nobody intelligent really wants to be there if you hope to be received with indoor antennas.

I agree VHF is not the best place to be. However, with these low powers, wouldn't an omnidirectional VHF potentially covering a decent part of the market be better than a really directional UHF only serving a small portion of the market. In these cases you could only be a few miles from the transmitter and not receive anything because it's so directional. Also, in WCHU's case any small bit of tropo and they will be gone, same thing with Analog 25, 34, and 40. Milwaukee kills them all summer long. However, WLFM Analog 6 stayed pretty decent even in tropo because there's nothing interfering with them. So, while VHF can be hard to receive, having a UHF getting killed by tropo constantly and having such a directional pattern doesn't seem like a good alternative.

kd9fz

11-05-09, 08:45 PM

WEDE - 62.2

no longer are we in EDEN
now it shows as MCTV
but the FN still has shows at various times

strange lookin logo in lower right of screen MCTV riding on top of red/green FN

kd9fz
comments, crticisms and questions of sanity are always welcome

Trip in VA

11-05-09, 09:25 PM

So, while VHF can be hard to receive, having a UHF getting killed by tropo constantly and having such a directional pattern doesn't seem like a good alternative.

Being hard to receive some of the time is better than being hard to receive all the time.

- Trip

pm3839

11-05-09, 09:45 PM

WEDE - 62.2.....no longer are we in EDEN....now it shows as MCTV....but the FN still has shows at various times.....strange lookin logo in lower right of screen MCTV riding on top of red/green FN.....

the MC is MORRIS CERULLO...who is yet another rip-off wacko phoney baloney bible thumper begging for money in the 'name' of religion! what a waste of broadcast spectrum and electricity!

sebenste

11-05-09, 10:55 PM

8 - VHF.

- Trip

8 in Milwaukee and a low power out by Elburn yet to be built.

Trip in VA

11-05-09, 11:03 PM

8 in Milwaukee and a low power out by Elburn yet to be built.

I had thought the WMKB-LD permit expired, but I see they reapplied.

And Milwaukee doesn't count, as that was the entire point of the post. :)

- Trip

swiat

11-06-09, 10:29 AM

---

swiat

11-06-09, 10:34 AM

----

swiat

11-06-09, 10:39 AM

Being hard to receive some of the time is better than being hard to receive all the time.

- Trip

I reject the premise that digital TV on VHF is impossible to receive. How many people get WBBM just fine now? What is the ratio of those that get WBBM just fine to those that don't? 10:1, more? People have become way to lazy and in some cases they lost the knowledge they had before cable TV about antennas. If I can get WZZM and WGVU from over the lake on VHF someone with half a brain can get a VHF station that is much closer in. Heck, nearly the entire Grand Rapids market is on VHF! VHF stations with adequate power can be received in all but the most extreme circumstances (bad high rise locations). Even that could be mitigated by what we use to have in buildings: a outdoor antenna multiplexed to the residents. The problem is that cable TV and the high rise owners have some back room deals with exclusivity. Most importantly, the FCC seriously underestimated the ERP it takes to cover an area. They need to reevaluate those power levels.

VHF can be used. A LD station with 4.75 kW ERP on VHF hi on 7 is a good start. This < 1 kW nonsense has to be reevaluated.

I will enjoy when WCHU gets stomped on in the Spring and Summer by WITI if they stay on that channel.

Trip in VA

11-06-09, 10:50 AM

I reject the premise that digital TV on VHF is impossible to receive.

I said "hard," not impossible.

People have become way to lazy and in some cases they lost the knowledge they had before cable TV about antennas. If I can get WZZM and WGVU from over the lake on VHF someone with half a brain can get a VHF station that is much closer in.

I've seen VHF work well, and I've seen it work poorly. Ultimately, the fact is that indoor antennas suck at VHF. I've been told 80% of antennas sold are indoor models. It's easy to say "get a roof antenna" but most people are not willing to go through the trouble. Even on AVS I've seen lots of people say, "I get all the networks except the VHF one, so I'm just not going to watch it."

VHF stations with adequate power can be received in all but the most extreme circumstances (bad high rise locations). Even that could be mitigated by what we use to have in buildings: a outdoor antenna multiplexed to the residents. The problem is that cable TV and the high rise owners have some back room deals with exclusivity.

When 90% of viewers are going to use the cable in the building or put a satellite dish on their exclusive use balcony, what incentive does the building owner have to maintain a rooftop antenna system? Even absent exclusive deals.

Most importantly, the FCC seriously underestimated the ERP it takes to cover an area. They need to reevaluate those power levels.

[...] A LD station with 4.75 kW ERP on VHF hi on 7 is a good start. This < 1 kW nonsense has to be reevaluated.

No arguments there. KTVJ-LP in the San Francisco market has a permit for channel 4 and has applied for 1.2 kW, seeking a waiver of the 0.3 kW limit. I suspect the FCC will reject it, but it's not for lack of trying.

I've spoken to the owner and helped him try to locate a UHF channel without success.

Should the stupid decision to put WCHU on 33 remain, I will enjoy springtime and summer when it gets stomped into the ground because of tropo enhancement. I wonder if WCHU will still be happy about the move to the channel then...

The thought will probably be "at least we're not on VHF!"

- Trip

saxhound

11-06-09, 11:37 AM

I was up on the roof yesterday to check on the condition of the CM Stealthtenna I installed last spring. I figured it might be my last chance before winter rears its ugly head. I was distressed to find that the gray metal VHF wings are already starting to rust. Since I have at least two or three more days of good weather, I'm thinking of giving it a spray coat or two of Rustoleum. Any thoughts on whether this is a bad idea? I'm getting all the locals at either 100% or slightly less, and I don't want to screw up a good thing.

Linc33

11-06-09, 11:52 AM

Hi All,

Hope this is the correct forum. I am in 60021 zip, Chicago NW suburbs, we recently canceled ATT UVerse TV to save $ and am trying to get OTA TV to work w/ antenna and converter box.

I went to tvfool.com to determine what channels I should be getting.

I purchased a GE 24769 Outdoor Antenna for Digital HDTV Futura and put it on the roof temporarily and according to the Converter Box, I get peak strength of 35-40, but CANNOT get CBS on Hi-VHF.

Can the collective wisdom of this forum please recommend an appropriate antenna for my situation?

Thanks in advance for any help, and please let me know if I can provide any more information to help, I am very new to this process and (obviously) my first post.

-Linc

lgdavis

11-06-09, 12:22 PM

I reject the premise that digital TV on VHF is impossible to receive. How many people get WBBM just fine now? What is the ratio of those that get WBBM just fine to those that don't? 10:1, more? People have become way to lazy and in some cases they lost the knowledge they had before cable TV about antennas. If I can get WZZM and WGVU from over the lake on VHF someone with half a brain can get a VHF station that is much closer in. Heck, nearly the entire Grand Rapids market is on VHF! VHF stations with adequate power can be received in all but the most extreme circumstances (bad high rise locations). Even that could be mitigated by what we use to have in buildings: a outdoor antenna multiplexed to the residents. The problem is that cable TV and the high rise owners have some back room deals with exclusivity. Most importantly, the FCC seriously underestimated the ERP it takes to cover an area. They need to reevaluate those power levels.

VHF can be used. A LD station with 4.75 kW ERP on VHF hi on 7 is a good start. This < 1 kW nonsense has to be reevaluated.

Well said and 100% correct. This should be made a "sticky".:)

If you want "free TV", you just might have to expend a little effort and put up an antenna. :eek:

I'm old enough to remember when everybody just put one up if they expected to watch TV - because it was common knowledge that indoor ant's were flaky.

Antennas belong outside - anything inside is a compromise and a crap shoot. Mr. Viewer can ignore that fact if he insists, but then should not whine when the results are less than stellar.

If you can't or won't put one up, you pay Comcast.

radioinsomnia

11-06-09, 12:52 PM

Hi Gilbert,

Long ago, I remember finding Longley-Rice maps here that could be loaded into Google Earth. I can't find them at the beginning of this thread anymore. Were they not being updated? I've used tvfool.com but also found having machine-readable map files to be very useful.

Thanks.

tvropro

11-06-09, 01:45 PM

I will enjoy when WCHU gets stomped on in the Spring and Summer by WITI if they stay on that channel.

So will I, I've seen analog channel 2 get knocked out completely by e skip from Nebraska years ago so seeing what will happen in digital will be interesting. WITI was smoking with tropo by me all summer before they even did there upgrades. I refuse to even turn on my Zenith box for DXing now unless these clowns at the FCC wake up and cut this BS out. There are too many low power stations in a market like Chicago and these no minds took away the UHF spectrum even more. Then refuse to allocate these stupid channels to VHF.

As far as Channel 7 moving to 44 IMHO it was a stupid move but they caved to the whiners that only want to use a UHF hoop to receive everything 50 miles away. Channel 7 could have kept the juice up and these hoop users would need to put up a good outdoor VHF-UHF antenna or go to cable for the locals.

Channel 7 has more problems than signal strength. They look terrible with there bitstarving. I was showing a neighbor Wheel of fortune in so called HD yesterday. Vanna's face was in pieces and blocks and you couldn't even make it out half the time. This is technology screw that. I also was showing my neighbor how good a SD master can look on C band satellite before butchering. I had the CW on in DVB and there was NO Macro blocking or Mosquito noise and was sharper then HD 9 OTA.

I say we scrap the whole ATSC MPEG 2 system since it's 10 years outdated already and with the way the bean counters think MPEG 7 wouldn't meet there compressing need's.

George Molnar

11-06-09, 02:46 PM

Well said and 100% correct. This should be made a "sticky".:)

If you want "free TV", you just might have to expend a little effort and put up an antenna. :eek:

I'm old enough to remember when everybody just put one up if they expected to watch TV - because it was common knowledge that indoor ant's were flaky.

Antennas belong outside - anything inside is a compromise and a crap shoot. Mr. Viewer can ignore that fact if he insists, but then should not whine when the results are less than stellar.

If you can't or won't put one up, you pay Comcast.
If you're within the station's predicted coverage contour, there is plenty of signal outside your home. How much of that gets inside into your t.v. receiver depends upon the antenna's quality, location, and orientation, and building construction materials and other blockages.

12voltguys

11-06-09, 07:29 PM

VHF is usually easier to receive at farther distances, but you need a VHF antenna.

I live 60 miles from Milwaukee, and in my attic, I have a VHF antenna and a UHF antenna combined using a CM7777 pre-amp, pointing towards Chicago. (30 miles away)

The UHF antenna is a CM4228, one of the best UHF antennas available. When I point it at Milwaukee, I get 1 UHF station consistently, at about 50% or so signal level. A few others come in occassionally, but are not watchable.

The VHF antenna is a home-made folded dipole, just a length of 300-ohm twin-lead wire, but cut to the right length for the middle of the VHF-high band. (Channel 10, if I recall correctly.)

It used to be longer, cut for Channel 3, so I could receive WBBM-DT - which it did, just fine - always - no drop outs - ever.

When WBBM-DT switched frequencies to channel 12, the VHF-antenna couldn't receive them anymore. I also couldn't receive WLS-DT on channel 7.

When I shortened the antenna to the right length for their new frequencies, it started working again just fine, and with a higher signal level than before.

As a bonus, the same VHF antenna picks up WMVS-DT, the Milwaukee 1080i PBS station - 60 miles away from me, with no dropouts or glitches - ever.

All this for an antenna that is probably less than $1 in materials, not counting the pre-amplifier, coax, etc.

Just trying to make the point - it's a lot easier to get VHF using a VHF antenna, than wishing TV stations would change over to UHF.

Thanks George. That might be worth looking into. I've got some irons in the fire right now so, I'll put that on the bottom of the list and give it a try at some point.

sebenste

11-06-09, 07:44 PM

12voltguys

11-06-09, 08:20 PM

Quick question. Is anyone splitting an OTA signal to two different HDTVs? Is there any loss? I'm looking at adding a second HDTV soon.

jmmilner

11-06-09, 10:44 PM

Quick question. Is anyone splitting an OTA signal to two different HDTVs? Is there any loss? I'm looking at adding a second HDTV soon.

TINSTAAFL. Typical loss for a 2-way splitter is 3.5dB although a really cheap splitter can go twice that. The laws of physics say the best you can do when splitting the signal power evenly is 3.0dB (1/2 the original power) but there are additional losses in any real-world device. As to the impact that will have on your picture, the "digital cliff" comes into play. As long as your current signal is near 100% (using whatever metric your HDTV and/or CECB provides), it is likely you'll be fine with the split signal. If you have dropouts on your current HDTV, expect more or no picture at all when you add a second set.

12voltguys

11-06-09, 11:04 PM

TINSTAAFL. Typical loss for a 2-way splitter is 3.5dB although a really cheap splitter can go twice that. The laws of physics say the best you can do when splitting the signal power evenly is 3.0dB (1/2 the original power) but there are additional losses in any real-world device. As to the impact that will have on your picture, the "digital cliff" comes into play. As long as your current signal is near 100% (using whatever metric your HDTV and/or CECB provides), it is likely you'll be fine with the split signal. If you have dropouts on your current HDTV, expect more or no picture at all when you add a second set.

Well I guess I won't be adding a second set to the antenna then:D

Thanks alot for your reply

jmmilner

11-06-09, 11:33 PM

Well I guess I won't be adding a second set to the antenna then:D

Thanks alot for your reply

I gather from your response that you already have issues with OTA on a single HDTV. There is plenty of information on antennas, antenna placement (outside - the higher the better), coax loss (use RG6 - shorter is better), and preamps in this forum. I'd suggest scanning for suggestions that match your situation (distance, antenna placement limitations, etc.) and first optimize the signal for your current set. At that point you can decide if a second set will fly or if more measures (likely a preamp) are in order. If all else fails, describe your situation and location, somebody nearby will likely share what works for them.

tvropro

11-07-09, 02:33 AM

Quick question. Is anyone splitting an OTA signal to two different HDTVs? Is there any loss? I'm looking at adding a second HDTV soon.

I have my master (Chicago) OTA antenna split to 6 tv's, HD & SD, 3 Vcr's, 2 CECB's and another tv tuner. I also inject 4 OTA channels in the system from my satellite receivers. I have no degradation. This is because after I do the antenna and modulator mixing I feed it to a distribution amplifier with plenty of gain. I use RG-6 for everything with quality 1ghz splitters and a Winegard distribution amp.

I also have 3 other antenna systems for DXing using Winegard preamps connected to my Zenith DTT-900.

The moral of the story is you can split a signal quite a bit. You must have a good signal to start with. If it's marginal you need to start with a good outdoor antenna (outside) and a preamp at the antenna. Then add a distribution amplifier if your going to do multiple cascades. You have to understand signal gain, line loss, splitter loss, insertion loss, and tilt. Once you have that mastered you can overcome most problems associated with just about any antenna system and distribution. It's not just plug and play though.

pm3839

11-07-09, 07:36 AM

Quick question. Is anyone splitting an OTA signal to two different HDTVs? Is there any loss? I'm looking at adding a second HDTV soon.

yes, u can almost certainly feed several tv's from one antenna....u didnt say where u are but if youre anywhere within about 30 to 40 miles (or maybe even 50 miles) from the transmitters (in downtown chicago) u should have no major problems....

to give u an idea of whats possible, i am 10 miles from the chicago transmitters ....i'm feeding 4 tuners thru a 4 way splitter and a lot of coax (some of it is even the higher loss rg-59) from a very old and small 'outdoor type' tv antenna thats lying on my attic floor....and using no amplifier or pre-amp....and this antenna isnt even pointed at chicago....i re-aimed it to get wyin pbs from indiana, 35 miles away....its by far my weakest full power station but its consistently well above threshold....

i can even get some of the low power stations fairly well thru this 'far less than ideal' antenna system....

bigdnwi

11-07-09, 07:45 PM

WCIU DT has been mapping to 27.3, 27.4 etc. for several days. Is their a problem with the PSIP equipment? I'm not sure about WWME RF 39 since I can't receive it.

rec630

11-07-09, 09:28 PM

WCIU DT has been mapping to 27.3, 27.4 etc. for several days. Is their a problem with the PSIP equipment? I'm not sure about WWME RF 39 since I can't receive it.

Some others have previously posted the same information about mapping to 27.x, but it's still coming in on 26.x for me. I have noticed though that I'm not getting any program guide information.

12voltguys

11-07-09, 09:59 PM

I have my master (Chicago) OTA antenna split to 6 tv's, HD & SD, 3 Vcr's, 2 CECB's and another tv tuner. I also inject 4 OTA channels in the system from my satellite receivers. I have no degradation. This is because after I do the antenna and modulator mixing I feed it to a distribution amplifier with plenty of gain. I use RG-6 for everything with quality 1ghz splitters and a Winegard distribution amp.

I also have 3 other antenna systems for DXing using Winegard preamps connected to my Zenith DTT-900.

The moral of the story is you can split a signal quite a bit. You must have a good signal to start with. If it's marginal you need to start with a good outdoor antenna (outside) and a preamp at the antenna. Then add a distribution amplifier if your going to do multiple cascades. You have to understand signal gain, line loss, splitter loss, insertion loss, and tilt. Once you have that mastered you can overcome most problems associated with just about any antenna system and distribution. It's not just plug and play though.

Well I do have a brand new CM 7777 here so, if need be I can use it.

I'm using a DB 8 antenna outdoors. It's UHF only. It's only mounted about 7 ft in the air. It works well enough that I don't really need to go higher. If I have to in the future, I will. I"m 60 miles from the transmitters.

Awesomeness

11-07-09, 10:04 PM

What is wrong with MeTV? There are black bars on the top and bottom of the screen. WCIU has black bars on the top, bottom, and sides.

hvs10trk

11-07-09, 10:49 PM

WCIU DT has been mapping to 27.3, 27.4 etc. for several days. Is their a problem with the PSIP equipment? I'm not sure about WWME RF 39 since I can't receive it.

Hard to explain what it is. It's one of those stupid workflow things to where if you dont follow it to a T, you channel mapping disappears. It'll be fixed in the morning.

Edit: Fixed Now.

hvs10trk

11-07-09, 10:51 PM

What is wrong with MeTV? There are black bars on the top and bottom of the screen. WCIU has black bars on the top, bottom, and sides.

When was MeTV like this and for how long. (Side effect of an upgrade) WCIU probably had a letterboxed SD show/movie playing.

Awesomeness

11-07-09, 11:01 PM

When was MeTV like this and for how long. (Side effect of an upgrade) WCIU probably had a letterboxed SD show/movie playing.

The black bars were on during All In The Family. MeTV seems to be back to normal now.

andyross63

11-08-09, 09:27 AM

Just a note that next Saturday (11/14), "Ask This Old House" at 6PM on WTTW will have one segment where they put up an outdoor antenna. Might be useful for those looking into what is involved. Or for those knowledgeable to find out what they do wrong.:) If I remember from the preview, it is one of their regular electricians that does the install, and not one of the 4 regulars.

rec630

11-08-09, 06:06 PM

The black bars were on during All In The Family. MeTV seems to be back to normal now.

I Love Lucy is letterboxed right now on 26-2. Aspect ratio is locked and can't be changed according to the DTT901 when I tried to "zoom" it. First time I've seen Lucy shown like this. ETA: just went to commercials which are full screen.

sebenste

11-09-09, 12:12 AM

I refuse to even turn on my Zenith box for DXing now unless these clowns at the FCC wake up and cut this BS out. There are too many low power stations in a market like Chicago and these no minds took away the UHF spectrum even more. Then refuse to allocate these stupid channels to VHF.

Tv,

If you do that, you'll miss some great DX. In spite of the interference, I logged stations from Rochester, MN, to Alpena, MI this year. Don't give up hope...

As far as Channel 7 moving to 44 IMHO it was a stupid move but they caved to the whiners that only want to use a UHF hoop to receive everything 50 miles away. Channel 7 could have kept the juice up and these hoop users would need to put up a good outdoor VHF-UHF antenna or go to cable for the locals.

Uh-uh. Your argument is fine up until that point, but you left out a very important problem: WLS 7, like WBBM, goes straight to heck in a handbasket in and NEAR thunderstorms. In my case, anything less than 30 miles away wiped out WLS. Also, atmospheric noise caused annoying audio dropouts out here. In Oklahoma City KWTV-DT with 60 kw at 1600' is having to throw in the towel and they are headed for 1 million watts on an empty UHF frequency. That due to incessant thunderstorms knocking them out during severe weather, when infamous meteorologist Gary England hits the airwaves and gets major ratings.

Channel 7 has more problems than signal strength. They look terrible with there bitstarving. I was showing a neighbor Wheel of fortune in so called HD yesterday. Vanna's face was in pieces and blocks and you couldn't even make it out half the time. This is technology screw that. I also was showing my neighbor how good a SD master can look on C band satellite before butchering. I had the CW on in DVB and there was NO Macro blocking or Mosquito noise and was sharper then HD 9 OTA.

Yep. Now, with the encoders WCIU and WYIN have, I'm thinking it would look better. But not with what they have now.

I say we scrap the whole ATSC MPEG 2 system since it's 10 years outdated already and with the way the bean counters think MPEG 7 wouldn't meet there compressing need's.

Ha! I think MPEG2 can do a little better with better processing power. You know, I would be real scared if WBBM and WMAQ had WCIU's/WYIN's encoders. WBBM might look even a bit more jaw-dropping than it is now.

pm3839

11-09-09, 05:38 AM

did wyin pbs 56.1 recently upgrade something to explain why i am consistently receiving them at about 10% to 12% higher signal level for the last week or 10 days?

did they increase their tx power? or go to a taller transmit antenna? or maybe a better tx antenna? i didnt change anything here to explain it....

tvropro

11-09-09, 07:18 AM

Tv,

Uh-uh. Your argument is fine up until that point, but you left out a very important problem: WLS 7, like WBBM, goes straight to heck in a handbasket in and NEAR thunderstorms. In my case, anything less than 30 miles away wiped out WLS. Also, atmospheric noise caused annoying audio dropouts out here. In Oklahoma City KWTV-DT with 60 kw at 1600' is having to throw in the towel and they are headed for 1 million watts on an empty UHF frequency. That due to incessant thunderstorms knocking them out during severe weather, when infamous meteorologist Gary England hits the airwaves and gets major ratings.

I guess impulse noise is a bad offender with digital. Analog would accept it and deal with it so much better. I don't see any issues OTA with thunderstorms where Im at. Although I've seen lightning causing breakup in C band on my Digicipher 2 decoder. (DC-2 is what ATSC is based on)

I shouldn't be watching tv during a thunderstorm anyway, when they get close I turn it off. I've heard horror stories from people who took lightning strikes watching tv during a storm. It ain't pretty.

Ha! I think MPEG2 can do a little better with better processing power. You know, I would be real scared if WBBM and WMAQ had WCIU's/WYIN's encoders. WBBM might look even a bit more jaw-dropping than it is now.

I think the days of glistening HD are gone with OTA and small dish or cable systems. They refuse to look at anything but the bottom line to make more cashflow. It's getting to a point that buying a HDTV is a waste unless you going to feed it Blu Ray or a big dish satellite master feed. Even MPEG 4 on the pizza systems don't cut the mustard. MPEG 2 is so out dated already that anything more than one channel OTA in HD it's suffering.

As far as DXing OTA goes were going into winter and conditions are usually down. Maybe by next spring 33 will open up again. I really enjoyed how WITI
came blasting in here and still may knock out LP 33 here with mean tropo. I still have WSBT smoking in here, till some bonehead wants that frequency locally. Maybe the FCC should have kept 52-69 and sold off 2-13.

swiat

11-09-09, 10:32 AM

Just a constructive comment:

I think you guys at WCIU have a variable bit encoder. Could you tweek it some during the 11am Saturday SEC football games to improve the resolution on THIS 26-4?

It looked pretty bad this past Saturday and I don't remember it being that bad during previous weeks. Usually my ESPN gameplan SD version looks like crap and this past weekend it looked better than 26-4, sadly.

sebenste

11-09-09, 10:37 AM

I guess impulse noise is a bad offender with digital.
Especially on VHF, and even much more so on VHF-LO. If you are within 30 miles of the transmitter, it seems not to matter much, but get out west of route 59, and that's where the problems can begin.

I think the days of glistening HD are gone with OTA and small dish or cable systems. They refuse to look at anything but the bottom line to make more cashflow. It's getting to a point that buying a HDTV is a waste unless you going to feed it Blu Ray or a big dish satellite master feed. Even MPEG 4 on the pizza systems don't cut the mustard. MPEG 2 is so out dated already that anything more than one channel OTA in HD it's suffering.
Not necessarily. WBBM doesn't have cash flow problems due to its HD...it's due to its weak signal. And even though it is inferior to a full power UHF signal
<i>given the lack of VHF antennas</i> and impulse noise due to atmospheric conditions, it still is much better than what it once was, to be sure. That's probably helped them in the news department. Third and 4th TV's in homes can finally get them now, to a much beetter degree.

As far as DXing OTA goes were going into winter and conditions are usually down. Maybe by next spring 33 will open up again. I really enjoyed how WITI
came blasting in here and still may knock out LP 33 here with mean tropo. I still have WSBT smoking in here, till some bonehead wants that frequency locally. Maybe the FCC should have kept 52-69 and sold off 2-13.

Eh, I probably shouldn't tell you that Polnet owns 20 in Schaumburg, and 22 in Aurora. They all have construction permits, as well as Aurora's analog 24 to go to 150 kilowatts form the 3 kilowatts they are at now (don't ask me why, I'd flash cut that to 15 kw digital).

sebenste

11-09-09, 10:39 AM

hvs10trk

11-09-09, 01:28 PM

drhey19

11-09-09, 04:27 PM

Has anyone ever heard anything about the .2 Network subchannel? It would be great to have that or CoolTV here in the Chicago market.

kd9fz

11-09-09, 04:59 PM

METV and METOO interaction and the dtt-901
monday's 2:30 am movie 'the whole town's talking' was in stretch-o-vision
black bars on top and bottom - had to set the dtt-901 aspect ratio to 16:9 and got
a reduced picture with black on ecery side --
during a commercial i changed channels and noticed 26.3 with sheperd's chapel had
black bars on the sides and behold the dtt-901 aspect ratio had changed from the 4:3
it was set to 16:9 ... changed the setting to 4:3 and went back to 26.2
now 26.2 was back to 4:3 aspect ratio and nothing was done to the 26.2 channel setup
so how did the aspect ratio setting change?
the dtt-901 going bad?
some interacting of the 26.2/26.3 feeds confusing the dtt-901?
neither 26.1 nor 26.4 had a change in their aaspect ratio settings
just 26.2 and 26.3 were affected

kd9fz
comments, critcisms and questions of sanity are always welcome

andyross63

11-09-09, 05:21 PM

This has been happening alot lately. WCIU seems to be having an issue where something is triggering letterboxing or stretching. I've seen 26-1 showing SD material stretched a few times. This is on a DTT901, my Comcast cable box, and a ClearQAM TV. Probably a software bug in bleeding edge technology.

hvs10trk

11-09-09, 05:59 PM

hvs10trk

11-09-09, 06:01 PM

Awesomeness

11-09-09, 06:05 PM

Ding, Ding. God bless technology. :o

Why did MeTV/MeToo decide to upgrade software? They had the best SD in all of chicago.

hvs10trk

11-09-09, 06:27 PM

Why did MeTV/MeToo decide to upgrade software? They had the best SD in all of chicago.

Affects only MeTV. Physical hardware upgrade.

tvropro

11-09-09, 09:09 PM

Eh, I probably shouldn't tell you that Polnet owns 20 in Schaumburg, and 22 in Aurora. They all have construction permits, as well as Aurora's analog 24 to go to 150 kilowatts form the 3 kilowatts they are at now (don't ask me why, I'd flash cut that to 15 kw digital).

I think a LPTV channel in Aurora won't interfere with me here. I'm by Midway so thats a good 35+ miles away. On top of that Aurora would be on the back side and also off axis for me. I think I still would have a good chance for WSBT. Also Aurora is in a valley so it won't get out too well.

Now Milwaukee I get screwed on since I'm south of the loop and even though my ant is off axis for Milwaukee I still have a sidelobe of ch 33.

Like I said before if all this interference keeps up with low power channels poping up on every frequency from Milwaukee, Rockford, South Bend etc I'll throw in the towel for OTA and just watch stuff on my dishes. I was really big into OTA DXing till I got my C band system in 87 then I gave up on it because everything I wanted I could get on the dish and then some. I only started getting back into OTA DXing since digital looks really great when locked unlike analog did. If they prevent me from receiving them there is nothing I can do but forget it. :(

Channel two's HD looks very good but could be better. A backhaul HD feed on satellite is eye candy. What Im going to do is invest in a new receiver hopefully sometime soon that can get things like CBS, NBC, ABC, etc HD masters off the birds. http://www.azbox.com/HDElite.php Then I will quit watching the local channels like back in the day I watched CBS on my dish because I never had to deal with channel 2's impulse noise etc.

stwhoges

11-09-09, 10:17 PM

So, Hvs, is "You and Me This Morning" not on MeTV any more? I just saw that they were on a on the clock schedule for MeTV again today, so I was just wondering. I mean I saw a few brief like one minute clip headlines on MeTV, but that's about it; just was wondering if you knew anything about it.

sebenste

11-09-09, 11:48 PM

I think a LPTV channel in Aurora won't interfere with me here. I'm by Midway so thats a good 35+ miles away. On top of that Aurora would be on the back side and also off axis for me. I think I still would have a good chance for WSBT. Also Aurora is in a valley so it won't get out too well.

:eek: This signal is omnidirectional and 30 miles for a 15 kilowatter should not only interfere with you, but if you pointed at it with your array, you should get it. Now, before I get a bunch of replies saying "you can't compare that" with what I'm about to say, hang tight...

When WCIU was on STA power of 15 kilowatts, you could get them 70 miles away. Shucks, with WCHU on 44 at 11 kilowatts, I could get them in the evenings easily when the noise level quieted down. Had my antenna been on the roof, and had 60%+ of my signal not been absorbed by my shingles, beams and whatnot, I'd have locked it all the time. Heck, if I could have my antenna on the roof, I still could lock WCHU in it's current configuration. But...

People will say, "well, duh! It's the height, stupid!"...and it is! But something needs to be said about the pureness of the digital signal, and the power levels. When WQRF-DT was side-mounted onto WTVO's antenna at 3.3 kilowatts, I could lock them with my ChnnelMaster 4228 pointed at Chicago, from DeKalb...and I get multipath from Rockford from an adjacent townhome, and I'm physically 30 miles away from the tower, AND behind a ridge to boot to partially block the signal! WSBT is strong enough here to interfere with WVCY-DT 22 in Milwaukee. It cancels them out.

Yes, height means might, absolutely no question (WSBT's signal goes farther than WNDU from South Bend for that reason). But yet, in tropo, I've gotten the South Bend Weigel ABC low power digital with 3 kilowatts thrown my way!

Now Milwaukee I get screwed on since I'm south of the loop and even though my ant is off axis for Milwaukee I still have a sidelobe of ch 33.

If you are near Midway, congrats. You're pretty much getting the full blast of the 15 kilowatts coming from Hancock. You will need an extremely directional (large) antenna to get them with tropo now.

Like I said before if all this interference keeps up with low power channels poping up on every frequency from Milwaukee, Rockford, South Bend etc I'll throw in the towel for OTA and just watch stuff on my dishes. I was really big into OTA DXing till I got my C band system in 87 then I gave up on it because everything I wanted I could get on the dish and then some. I only started getting back into OTA DXing since digital looks really great when locked unlike analog did. If they prevent me from receiving them there is nothing I can do but forget it. :(

But this is just temporary. The STA is until they approve 26 (unlikely, in my opinion due to WBBM), or until they move to channel 7 at 4.4 kilowatts (also very unlikely, in my opinion).

BTW, FWIW: WSPY-LD has gotten an extension to build their digital signal by 6 months. They are claiming negative cash flow and severe financial hardship. The FCC kept the supporting documents off the application, but they readily agreed to it. Anyway...

Channel two's HD looks very good but could be better. A backhaul HD feed on satellite is eye candy. What Im going to do is invest in a new receiver hopefully sometime soon that can get things like CBS, NBC, ABC, etc HD masters off the birds. http://www.azbox.com/HDElite.php Then I will quit watching the local channels like back in the day I watched CBS on my dish because I never had to deal with channel 2's impulse noise etc.
Wait until they encrypt the signal. That won't last long. Unless you are or know someone in the biz...

Trip in VA

11-10-09, 12:20 AM

They withdrew the channel 26.

- Trip

Rammitinski

11-10-09, 02:13 AM

Has anyone ever heard anything about the .2 Network subchannel? It would be great to have that....here in the Chicago market.No it wouldn't - that's an HD subchannel. Maybe if they kept it at 480i widescreen, and put it with a channel that had no other subs.

hvs10trk

11-10-09, 06:00 AM

tvropro

11-10-09, 07:43 AM

If you are near Midway, congrats. You're pretty much getting the full blast of the 15 kilowatts coming from Hancock. You will need an extremely directional (large) antenna to get them with tropo now.

I have a modified U120 pointed at Milwaukee It is pointed slightly NW. If I pointed it more NW the gun barrels (null) of the elements would point at the loop and have maximum rejection.

http://www.themusicworkshopchicago.com/satellite/electronic.htm

From what I've seen of WITI 's signal in the past during tropo it can kill a local I'm sure.

Wait until they encrypt the signal. That won't last long. Unless you are or know someone in the biz...

Not everything goes to CA (conditional access) mode. One of the fun things about the satellite FTA hobby is the hunt and find. You can get some awesome stuff up there. When there is a problem with the cable channels they go out of CA and we receive them. It gives us a taste of what the engineers see in the control room.

http://www.themusicworkshopchicago.com/satellite/picture.htm

If most of the HD buffs out there saw the quality of those channels they would never want to go back to what they offer the consumer. The consumer level is okay for Joe sixpack weekend tv watcher, but not for videophiles and purests.

swiat

11-10-09, 10:20 AM

They're about as good as they're going to get.

Any chance the SEC games will be moved to 26-1 then? Wouldn't those games have better ratings than The Steve Harvey Show or whatever rerun is on at that time? I'd rather have it on 26-4 then not at all, so I do appreciate the effort of bringing the SEC network to OTA.

Awesomeness

11-10-09, 10:36 AM

They're about as good as they're going to get.

Is this because ABC/ESPN will not allow you to broadcast the games in HD and compete with ABC OTA?

You guys have a golden opportunity here. You have games some weeks that are better than what is on CBS or ABC.

sebenste

11-10-09, 10:52 AM

If most of the HD buffs out there saw the quality of those channels they would never want to go back to what they offer the consumer. The consumer level is okay for Joe sixpack weekend tv watcher, but not for videophiles and purests.

Can't argue with that. HVS has mentioned how the 1 gigabit/second (compared to 19.3 megabit/second) feed from U.S. Cellular Field looks like.
One of our own saw the 100 megabit/second feed of the Obama celebration party in Grant Park. But that's the thing: That's the raw feed; it's why it needs to be at least double the bitrate of what you send out to the stations/networks to look excellent. And cable/sat/OTA has pushed it to the limit right now with the current 19.3 mb/sec rates.

hvs10trk

11-10-09, 01:36 PM

Any chance the SEC games will be moved to 26-1 then? Wouldn't those games have better ratings than The Steve Harvey Show or whatever rerun is on at that time? I'd rather have it on 26-4 then not at all, so I do appreciate the effort of bringing the SEC network to OTA.

IMO, doubtful they'd move to 26.1.

danwojciechowski

11-10-09, 03:20 PM

Well I guess I won't be adding a second set to the antenna then:D

Thanks alot for your reply

You don't have to give up that easily. ;) My single antenna feeds 2 HDTVs, 1 HD-DVR, and 2 DVD-Recorders, with wonderful results. Of course I employ distribution amps (a.k.a. powered splitters), to ensure my signals don't get too weak. Also, over amplifying your signal is going to destroy it as well. You'll need to do a little experimentation.

Dan (Woj...)

stwhoges

11-10-09, 04:50 PM

I think the "Me" part of it toned itself down to a couple of quick hits.

Oh, I gotcha. Well, then I must tell you to pass along my thanks for MeTV adding "I Dream of Jeannie" in the mornings, right next to Bewitched! :) It just always seems that "Jeannie" gets kicked off a lot when schedules change, so I appreciate seeing it back again!

tvropro

11-11-09, 05:22 PM

Can't argue with that. HVS has mentioned how the 1 gigabit/second (compared to 19.3 megabit/second) feed from U.S. Cellular Field looks like.
One of our own saw the 100 megabit/second feed of the Obama celebration party in Grant Park. But that's the thing: That's the raw feed; it's why it needs to be at least double the bitrate of what you send out to the stations/networks to look excellent. And cable/sat/OTA has pushed it to the limit right now with the current 19.3 mb/sec rates.

Yes the backhauls are the best.

On a DXing note I decided to see how bad WCHU clobbers my Milwaukee antenna and believe it or not it's not getting to me very good on that stick. There is hope that WITI will blast it out with good tropo. Here is the Zeniths signal strength of WCHU on the WITI stick.

When tropo or e skip is strong it can act like a local 100-1000 miles away. So I hope to use a old phrase that WITI "puts the mall down!"

swiat

11-11-09, 06:04 PM

Does anyone have a URL that describes the radiation patterns of a stacked folded dipole antenna? I'm working on a repeater site and my desire is to emulate what many Milwaukee broadcast stations do, that is gain in the N, S, and W, but little to the east (over the lake). I'm thinking you align the elements vertically on top of each other, but something tells me the beam will be too tight. The antenna I am working on is vertically polarized, BTW.

stwhoges

11-11-09, 06:24 PM

62.3 is gone now from the channel lineups. I just noticed that this morning when I was flipping around.

By the way, any one know when 56 is gonna disversify their 4 channels? Just curious.

retromzc

11-11-09, 08:59 PM

BTW, FWIW: WSPY-LD has gotten an extension to build their digital signal by 6 months. They are claiming negative cash flow and severe financial hardship. The FCC kept the supporting documents off the application, but they readily agreed to it. Anyway...

I doubt anyone would even miss WSPY-LD. The picture is either so bright you can't see anything or so dark you can't see anything. And since it's on automation 99% of the time and everyone at WSPY goes home at 6:30 it often sits for hours with nothing showing on screen except "no signal" from the sat. feed. There is only one half hour local show Mon.-Fri. and their cameras are so "out of whack" you can't see anything anyway. No wonder they have financial hardships. Total waste of airway use.

swiat

11-12-09, 01:57 PM

Being that WPWR has arguably the most powerful signal in the area, why don't they have subchannel programming? Would people be that upset with 1 SD subchannel taking away bits from the WWF?

Seems like some stations have too many subchannels, some are underusing the technology.

I'd like to see WPWR be an America One affiliate.

Trip in VA

11-12-09, 02:15 PM

WPWR has a hidden SD sub plus Mobile DTV.

- Trip

Rammitinski

11-12-09, 02:57 PM

No wonder I see artifacts on it.

dicko2

11-12-09, 04:27 PM

WPWR has a hidden SD sub plus Mobile DTV.

- Trip

OK, I'll bite. What's a hidden subchannel?

Trip in VA

11-12-09, 04:50 PM

tvropro

11-12-09, 06:09 PM

It's exactly what it sounds like. It's a subchannel that's there, using data, just not made available to your receiver. justalurker found it when collecting data for my website. Last I spoke with him, he told me it appears to be an SD simulcast of 50-1 but without the bug in the corner.

- Trip
That means it's not mapped in. If that's the case your STB or ATSC tuner in your HDTV ain't gonna see it.

That brings up something weird I map in 47.5 and 47.6 on my Aquos but there is nothing there. Don't ask me what thats all about.

Trip in VA

11-12-09, 06:13 PM

That means it's not mapped in. If that's the case your STB or ATSC tuner in your HDTV ain't gonna see it.

If it just wasn't mapped, you might be able to see it on some receivers. It's actually completely absent in the part of the stream that is supposed to identify where the audio/video components are. (The PMT, for anyone who wants the proper name.)

That brings up something weird I map in 47.5 and 47.6 on my Aquos but there is nothing there. Don't ask me what thats all about.

http://www.updatelogic.com/network.html

:)

- Trip

dicko2

11-12-09, 09:15 PM

So why would they do that if no one can see it?

Trip in VA

11-12-09, 09:22 PM

No idea. I would guess they're trying to feed it somewhere (if you know to look for it, it's easy enough to look at with TSReader and probably non-consumer receivers), but where is anyone's guess.

- Trip

neilkaz

11-14-09, 06:18 PM

I stopped by my mom-im-law's place today on the NE edge of Lake Zurich just south of Hawthorn Woods to check out whether RF7 or RF44 would be best for WLS-TV.

She has one of my old CM 4228 8-bays up on a chimney mount and split to to sets and she has some severe issues with trees in the way. Overall signals are better now that the leaves are down, as one would expect.

Anyhow, on the TV with the Apex STB, WLS TV now comes in on 44 instead of Spanish. I didn't do a rescan, but she doesn't speak nor watch Spanish anyhow. RF7 had just a barely acceptable signal, but would sometimes break up, whereas RF44 was lots better and rock solid. Strengths were about 25-27for RF7 and 65-67 for RF44.

Checking her other TV with the LG STB there also was more signal on RF44 and whereas RF7 occasionally had a smidge of audio or picture breakup there was none on RF44. I did have to rescan to get RF44, which appears as a second channel 7.

She gets WBBM 2 (RF12) just fine with about a 50 signal, although many of the UHFs are considerably stronger, likely due to the antenna which gets UHF HI but isn't optimized for it.

.. neilkaz ..

Awesomeness

11-14-09, 10:02 PM

MeTV has the black bars on the top and bottom of All In The Family again.

Chicago13

11-14-09, 11:18 PM

That brings up something weird I map in 47.5 and 47.6 on my Aquos but there is nothing there. Don't ask me what thats all about.

I have that on my Vizio only they're mapped to 47.7 & 47.8. WTTW is 47 isn't it?

stwhoges

11-15-09, 12:02 AM

That brings up something weird I map in 47.5 and 47.6 on my Aquos but there is nothing there. Don't ask me what thats all about.I think I've see a blank 11.5 before (it's been a while ago when 11 mapped to 47), so I think that 11 could maybe have 1 or 2 more subchannels from seeing that before.

Trip in VA

11-15-09, 12:06 AM

I have that on my Vizio only they're mapped to 47.7 & 47.8. WTTW is 47 isn't it?

I think I've see a blank 11.5 before (it's been a while ago when 11 mapped to 47), so I think that 11 could maybe have 1 or 2 more subchannels from seeing that before.

http://www.updatelogic.com/network.html

:)

- Trip

Chicago13

11-15-09, 01:40 AM

Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
http://www.updatelogic.com/network.html

- Trip

And the purpose of the link is? :confused:

Trip in VA

11-15-09, 02:08 AM

To answer what those subchannels are.

- Trip

swiat

11-15-09, 10:31 PM

kd9fz

11-16-09, 03:21 AM

62.2 MCTV
MyChristianTV has been running a scroll on the screen bottom soliciting comments about
their programming - a novel way to check ratings maybe

kd9fz

tvropro

11-16-09, 06:53 AM

I would just like to thank the FCC and WCHU again for the co-channel interference with WITI. So, just so I have this right, I lose an HD English speaking station for a 3rd rate Spanish SD network.

OK, I'm straight now.

But this is America, the national language is now south of the border. :rolleyes:

Yeah it sucks :mad: I did all that work this summer with custom antenna's to DX Milwaukee and South Bend. I was very happy with WITI's powerhouse effects down here, now this. At least WTMJ and the others still can be got. But WITI and WSBT were the best for being there the most. Well WSBT I can still get until the next foreign language group takes over RF 22 locally. :( Screw it, I'll wait for extreme tropo to see if WITI cashes WCHU then laugh when it does.

andyross63

11-16-09, 09:54 AM

I would just like to thank the FCC and WCHU again for the co-channel interference with WITI. So, just so I have this right, I lose an HD English speaking station for a 3rd rate Spanish SD network.

OK, I'm straight now.

But, WCHU is the Chicago market, WITI is Milwaukee. The FCC gives priority to channels serving a particular market. Also, don't forget the elevator music on 61.2. At least you can hear it. My DTT901 gets no audio at all.

tvropro

11-17-09, 07:45 AM

But, WCHU is the Chicago market, WITI is Milwaukee. The FCC gives priority to channels serving a particular market. Also, don't forget the elevator music on 61.2. At least you can hear it. My DTT901 gets no audio at all.

The LPTV thing is out of control especially with the government selling off more of the spectrum. They should group all those broadcasters in one area like they do with the college stations on FM and allow only the big boys to play in the main spectrum of frequency's. What ever happened to a specific amount of distance between stations? Oh ya this is digital and don't play by the old rules. Digital IMHO is nothing more then a cluster screwup in one way or another. :(

kd9fz

11-17-09, 08:07 PM

anyone notice any effects on OTA from the meteor showers?

kd9fz

OTA_GUY

11-17-09, 09:11 PM

WCPXDT3 - 38-3

08:00PM Batman Forever
10:30PM Junk Raiders

things just geting better and better...

yesterday we missed caddy shack and magnum force!!!!! how did my TiVo miss those classics?

and tomarrow the last boy scout and the enforcer!!!

just check it out they are bringing it all week!!!!

bh7812

11-18-09, 03:15 AM

62.2 MCTV
MyChristianTV has been running a scroll on the screen bottom soliciting comments about
their programming - a novel way to check ratings maybekd9fz

I saw that too Kd, they've been running that scroll on the bottom practically non stop since Friday. This is getting really sad :( When I saw MCTV in the channel data on my TV last week I was actually hoping that they were finally trying something different..you know, try to go back in the direction they really should be at WJYS but silly me it wasn't. Just more religious stuff. :( Things are not truly going to change there until when and if that station gets bought out. I was also curious to see what was going to go on 62.3 but they've pulled that. Something tells me whatever they had planned for WJYS 62 Too fell through either indefinitely or permanently. We'll never know.

But this is America, the national language is now south of the border. :rolleyes:

Yeah it sucks :mad: I did all that work this summer with custom antenna's to DX Milwaukee and South Bend. I was very happy with WITI's powerhouse effects down here, now this. At least WTMJ and the others still can be got. But WITI and WSBT were the best for being there the most. Well WSBT I can still get until the next foreign language group takes over RF 22 locally. :( Screw it, I'll wait for extreme tropo to see if WITI cashes WCHU then laugh when it does.

It was SO neat the one night in August I was able to get ALL the Milwaukee stations for a little while! They came through like locals. Yes especially WITI. I was hoping to get a chance to check that channel out more when I eventually get a good rooftop antenna but looks like that's been decided for us already :( They're doing some good things up in Milwaukee. When extreme tropo comes up in the future, after I get a good antenna, is there any channels in the markets South and West of here that any channels in Chicago would prevent us from seeing? Just curious.

WCPXDT3 - 38-3

08:00PM Batman Forever
10:30PM Junk Raiders

things just geting better and better...

yesterday we missed caddy shack and magnum force!!!!! how did my TiVo miss those classics?

and tomarrow the last boy scout and the enforcer!!!

just check it out they are bringing it all week!!!!

Of the several up and coming networks, ION has been having the best luck. Their ratings have steadily increased and they seem to be in a good spot right now. A big sign of that is them adding more hours in the afternoons and on weekends. ION has come a long way from it's start as PAX and they seem to be doing a lot of things right at the moment. We'll see if their momentum continues!

155

11-18-09, 08:50 AM

How come the WLS 44 thing happened so rapidly at the FCC, while the WBBM 26 thing is taking forever?

sebenste

11-18-09, 10:35 AM

How come the WLS 44 thing happened so rapidly at the FCC, while the WBBM 26 thing is taking forever?

1. Not as many people having trouble picking up WBBM.
2. It's a translator, not a full power station.
3. The FCC, and anything else I've missed.

judget

11-18-09, 03:31 PM

1. Not as many people having trouble picking up WBBM.
2. It's a translator, not a full power station.
3. The FCC, and anything else I've missed.

channel 2 is having many many problems... i have been told that they are waiting for the fcc in order to boost the power back to where it was when they first went to rf12... they had to lower it and now are waiting approval to raise it back up....

swiat

11-19-09, 11:06 AM

channel 2 is having many many problems... i have been told that they are waiting for the fcc in order to boost the power back to where it was when they first went to rf12... they had to lower it and now are waiting approval to raise it back up....

Like I said a couple weeks ago, the biggest debacle in this DTV transition was the FCC's poor assumptions on coverage vs. power on VHF. They seriously underestimated what broadcasters would need because of the flawed ATSC standard and issues with multipath. The European standard requires more power from the broadcasters (still less than analog) but is more immune to multipath issues. I think I read that the European standard, DVB/T is more spectrum efficient.

So, why did we choose a flawed MPEG2 standard? Well, it's better than analog in many ways but it was mostly for business reasons... was it TI's standard? I forget.

saxhound

11-19-09, 01:15 PM

Did WLS (RF7) power down last night for a while? I tried to check the weather on 7-3 a couple times, and it wouldn't come in. I haven't added 44 to my tuner yet, since it has about 10% less signal strength than 7.

Also, (maybe I missed this earlier in the thread), is there a definitive shutdown date for RF7?

zzzzz

11-19-09, 03:28 PM

Also, (maybe I missed this earlier in the thread), is there a definitive shutdown date for RF7?

I hope the answer is "not too soon" because I pick up RF7 a lot better than RF44 (RF7=90-100%, RF44=60-65% depending on which tuner and antenna I'm using). I have no problems with the other full power UHF stations (they generally come in between 85-100% depending on the station).

justalurker

11-19-09, 05:56 PM

sebenste

11-19-09, 06:54 PM

The "translator" application for operation on channel 7 (filed August 17th) is still pending.
WLS has filed for special temporary authority (on Oct 23rd) to do that immediately.
These would be for 4.7kW operation.

It looks like WLS is trying to have both cake and a full belly.

Well, they are doing a transition. It will be 6 more months and then WLS 7 shuts down, unless the FCC authorizes continued rights for them to do so. So, 4.75 kilowatts is where they are at now. There was no power down last night, but there was VHF tropo last night that probably messed it up.

As for WBBM, what judget said...

sebenste

11-19-09, 06:56 PM

Like I said a couple weeks ago, the biggest debacle in this DTV transition was the FCC's poor assumptions on coverage vs. power on VHF. They seriously underestimated what broadcasters would need because of the flawed ATSC standard and issues with multipath. The European standard requires more power from the broadcasters (still less than analog) but is more immune to multipath issues. I think I read that the European standard, DVB/T is more spectrum efficient.

So, why did we choose a flawed MPEG2 standard? Well, it's better than analog in many ways but it was mostly for business reasons... was it TI's standard? I forget.

MPEG-2, when this was all being igured out, hadn't even had the specs fully developed when they approved it! It was quite forward thinking of them to approve it, otherwise we would have been stuck with much worse. And while DVB/T is more spectrum efficient and you can get it in moving cars/vehicles, it's harder to receive it, and less bandwidth for HD. Ask the Germans...I've seen plenty of unhappy posts about it.

The best is MPEG-4, for now...but something better may be developed later to replace it.

veets

11-19-09, 09:00 PM

The best is MPEG-4, for now...but something better may be developed later to replace it.

Or not, if the FCC decides to reallocate the broadcast TV spectrum to wireless data services. I'm surprised no one here is talking about this. When I first read about it a few weeks ago, they were considering eventually taking all of the spectrum away from TV and putting OTA only households on subscription services. It can't be a good idea to hand the cable companies and wireless carriers a monopoly. Free broadcast TV offers the only real alternative to these paid services.

Here is an ARS Technica article about the spectrum grab: Broadcasters fighting back against wireless spectrum reform (http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/11/broadcasters-fighting-back-against-wireless-spectrum-reform.ars)

lohertz

11-19-09, 11:13 PM

Well, maybe I missed it but is tropo the reason rf7 has been so spotty the last couple of days.
I generally dont have a problem on my big Sammy but my older one doesn't have the best tuner in it.

Not to mention I changed my split so that I could get more signal to the bigger tv for WBBM on Sundays. <sigh>

I didnt have a problem with WLS rf7 on the upstairs sammy until lately.

What are the plans? RF 44 with more coverage (i.e. more power than now) Same question for RF26 and WBBM.

sebenste

11-20-09, 01:24 AM

What are the plans? RF 44 with more coverage (i.e. more power than now) Same question for RF26 and WBBM.

According to Kal Hassan in an earlier post, bumping up to about 460 kilowatts from the roughtly 330kw or so they're at now...and eventually, as close to 1 million watts as possible.

Awesomeness

11-20-09, 09:36 AM

channel 2 is having many many problems... i have been told that they are waiting for the fcc in order to boost the power back to where it was when they first went to rf12... they had to lower it and now are waiting approval to raise it back up....

Channel 2 CBS needs to increase power. I can't get them.

ABC 7 is comming in crystal clear.

retromzc

11-20-09, 09:53 AM

I wasn't aware that WBBM had decreased their power from the 8kw they started out with on rf12. What power level are they using now? I can still receive them relatively well here except when there is lightning in the area.

sebenste

11-20-09, 10:16 AM

swiat

11-20-09, 10:30 AM

WBBM is 8 kw. They wanted more. We'll see what happens...

Pretty paltry considering WWTV on the highest antenna in MI on VHF 9 near Cadillac, MI broadcasts with 40kW ERP.

BTW, WLS UHF 44 and VHF 7 is on the DirecTV OTA receivers. Check it out. Cool.

retromzc

11-20-09, 10:39 AM

BTW, WLS UHF 44 and VHF 7 is on the DirecTV OTA receivers. Check it out. Cool.

Yeah, I noticed that too. 7-1 says WLS-HD, next one says 7-1 WLSSTA etc...

retromzc

11-20-09, 10:39 AM

WBBM is 8 kw. They wanted more. We'll see what happens...

Thanks Gilbert.

sebenste

11-20-09, 01:15 PM

Pretty paltry considering WWTV on the highest antenna in MI on VHF 9 near Cadillac, MI broadcasts with 40kW ERP.

They have to protect a channel 12 in northeast Indiana, anbd that's the limiting factor right now.

Rammitinski

11-20-09, 03:25 PM

ABC 7 is coming in crystal clear.I think "solidly" would be a more appropriate description in the case of digital.

swiat

11-20-09, 05:02 PM

They have to protect a channel 12 in northeast Indiana, anbd that's the limiting factor right now.

Who cares about co-channel interference, especially when it is LESS than 100 miles away (WCHU/WITI, W25DW/WCGV)?

sebenste

11-20-09, 08:21 PM

Who cares about co-channel interference, especially when it is LESS than 100 miles away (WCHU/WITI, W25DW/WCGV)?

Those two have directional antennas that blast the signal away from the full power stations. And again, even though I'm a big DX fan and don't like it either, if you are out of the official reception range of the station, the FCC says you can stomp away on the signal in those areas all you want.

What got WCVG unhappy was that being near the lake and with frequent temperature inversions, tropo was affecting their signal very frequently.
WITI is much more powerful, wattage wise, than WCVG. So I suspect WITI doesn't care.

itsthemultipath!

11-20-09, 09:37 PM

Those two have directional antennas that blast the signal away from the full power stations. And again, even though I'm a big DX fan and don't like it either, if you are out of the official reception range of the station, the FCC says you can stomp away on the signal in those areas all you want.

What got WCVG unhappy was that being near the lake and with frequent temperature inversions, tropo was affecting their signal very frequently.
WITI is much more powerful, wattage wise, than WCVG. So I suspect WITI doesn't care.

The legal difference is that the channel 12 in NE Indiana (WINM, Angola), unlike WCHU and W25DW, is a full-service station, and legally has to be protected from interference.

As many have said, and I agree, all VHF DTVs should be able to get a general power increase. As to the interference argument: if all of the stations were to increase power equally, the net increase in coverage lost to interference would be zero. New interference would be limited to areas where the stations have to date been considered "too weak to watch".

WBBM may have another option in a directional antenna, that could run more power yet protect WINM. It may not help WBBM in places like Benton Harbor, but, in Chicago proper (which is what WBBM really cares about), the difference could be significant.

Perhaps the best thing for WBBM would be to buy the UHF facility of a little-watched station and swap their VHF to that same station (giving the swapped station continued cable carriage and lower operating costs). Then getting a waiver to carry their desirable PSIP virtual channel 2 to the new RF channel.

stwhoges

11-20-09, 09:55 PM

Hvs, two things I noticed about the guide data:

1) MeTV still has in the guide data the "You and Me" for the weekday mornings, so it doesn't have the right start times for like "The Brady Bunch" or "Bewitched" or "The Nanny" or any of the morning shows up until 9am. And it doesn't even have a few shows in the data like "I Dream of Jeannie" or "The Monkees", so I didn't know if this could be looked into.

And...
2) I noticed that MeToo has a guide difference to on a couple shows during the week, like I think the evening lineup of "Wild, Wild, West", "Star Trek" and "Star Trek: TNG" isn't in there correctly (I think it shows "Rockford Files" at the "West" time slot and then it shows "Night Gallery" and "Hitchcock" in the guide data during Star Trek: TNG). And I think on the weekends, it still has on the guide, that the "Classic Movie" is on at 11am on Saturdays and I know that's been replaced with 2 episodes of the "A-Team" with this new schedule if I recall.

Just wanted to give you a heads up on a few differences.

sebenste

11-20-09, 11:13 PM

The legal difference is that the channel 12 in NE Indiana (WINM, Angola), unlike WCHU and W25DW, is a full-service station, and legally has to be protected from interference.

As many have said, and I agree, all VHF DTVs should be able to get a general power increase. As to the interference argument: if all of the stations were to increase power equally, the net increase in coverage lost to interference would be zero. New interference would be limited to areas where the stations have to date been considered "too weak to watch".

WBBM may have another option in a directional antenna, that could run more power yet protect WINM. It may not help WBBM in places like Benton Harbor, but, in Chicago proper (which is what WBBM really cares about), the difference could be significant.

Perhaps the best thing for WBBM would be to buy the UHF facility of a little-watched station and swap their VHF to that same station (giving the swapped station continued cable carriage and lower operating costs). Then getting a waiver to carry their desirable PSIP virtual channel 2 to the new RF channel.

Multi,

All stations have to be protected from interference, whether they be full or low power. However, full power stations can force low power stations off the air, if they move to that channel (like WLS displaced WCHU), or if they are causing them harm in their primary and secondary contours.

The problem with VHF is multiple fold. I used to be in the camp where "more power will solve it". This is wrong for several reasons:

1. Thunderstorms over and in the vicinity of the transmitter or user (within 40 miles or so) destroy the reception of most stations more than 20 miles out. If they are in the vicinity of the transmitter or city/near suburban viewer, they will be lost as well, or disrupted beyond usefulness. I couldn't get WWTO, so I couldn't see that train wreck coming. And this is a HUGE deal for most of the country. Why didn't we notice it? We had such a cold summer that we had an unusually low number of thunderstorms. And when we did get them out here...WBBM was a pixellated mess without audio.

2. Most people don't have adequate VHF antennas. The directional indoor UHF home ones are barely adequate, but still get severely attenuated by being indoors, and losing anywhere from 60%-90% of signal strength once inside. Nevertheless, most people can get at least some stations. Not so with "rabbit ears" or dipoles. They actually have an average LOSS, not gain, of -4 or -5 dB, or worse over a true dipole tuned for that frequency. That means you would have to double the power and then some just to overcome the poor antenna, and that would not take into account the attenuation from being indoors. What was "acceptable" under analog isn't good enough for digital.

3. Getting an adequate VHF antenna indoors is mostly impractical due to dipole length. The Winegard Square Shooter 3000 tries, and it's the best some TV engineers claim, but in many cases, it just doesn't cut it.

Finally, having WBBM buy, say, a low-rated station such as WJYS, or WYCC (they almost did---but WYCC wanted too high a price for them to pay for channel 21), would be cost-prohibitive, to say the least, even in this economy, as I write this. WBBM had so many chances to go to full power on UHF. They could have also taken 44. And in fact, folks, channel 49 is open for a full power, but KM Communications (the fine folks over at WOCH) have that with 8 kilowatts (and if/when that signs on, it's gonna get out, due to circular polarization and beam tilt). If a full power signed on 49, there would be some null north into Wisconsin to protect 48, but I bet an interference agreement could be reached. Otherwise, it's wide open.

Now, let me say one more thing. Outside of thunderstorms, VHF-HI isn't bad. And in fact, for long range reception, I'd go with it in a heartbeat. People like me and others with outdoor antennas in the far western/southwestern burbs are seeing reception blips from KCRG-DT in Cedar Rapids on channel 9 (and also perhaps from WILL-DT from 15 miles west of Champaign). And since they went to 60 kilowatts, KCRG had few complaints, since many outdoor antennas in Iowa are VHF/UHF combination antennas. They're locking them in Dubuque, for crying out loud. But KWTV-DT in Oklahoma City, at 1600' and 62.2 kilowatts threw in the towel. They are going 1 million watts on UHF. Their signal broke up during storms, and they get them a lot more than we get them here. They became unwatchable many nights of the year. I betcha KCRG will have many more complaints next year. Additionally, June 12 is when everyone switched over, missing some of the worst of the thunderstorm season. That won't be the case next year.

So, think about it. KWTV is over 7 times the power of WBBM, and they still had too much trouble due to storms, and they do have VHF/UHF combo antennas in that market, to be sure.

swiat

11-20-09, 11:50 PM

Those two have directional antennas that blast the signal away from the full power stations. And again, even though I'm a big DX fan and don't like it either, if you are out of the official reception range of the station, the FCC says you can stomp away on the signal in those areas all you want.

Well, WCHU does a piss poor job of blasting away from WITI. I used to get WITI 100% locked. That's not during tropo inversions (DX) either. Now I get ZILCH!

What got WCVG unhappy was that being near the lake and with frequent temperature inversions, tropo was affecting their signal very frequently.
WITI is much more powerful, wattage wise, than WCVG. So I suspect WITI doesn't care.

Actually the problem according to WCGV and the FCC was (is) that W25DW is getting interfered from WCGV. It's too powerful. WITI is that much more powerful and WCHU is more prone to interference from WITI. Why would you want a channel that is arguably the top 3 most hammered co-channels in the area? (WMVT 35, WDJT 46 would be worse)

If channels are so hard to come by why is analog 34 and digital 62-2 (or 62-1 I forget) showing the same thing! Why is MeTV on 23-2 and 26-2? Why is there another separate LD channel for Metoo? What's so bad about combining meTV and MeToo on UHF 39 if eventualy you want to free space on WCIU-DT? Seems like lots of wasted bandwidth to me.

dattier

11-21-09, 12:57 AM

If a full power signed on 49, there would be some null north into Wisconsin to protect 48 ...The trouble with the nulls to the north to protect Milwaukee stations is that whoever decides on the contours has the idea that the state line is Fullerton Avenue. WOCK-LD (is that the right thing to call RF4?) and WCHU-LD are both overrestricted.

sebenste

11-21-09, 03:20 AM

The trouble with the nulls to the north to protect Milwaukee stations is that whoever decides on the contours has the idea that the state line is Fullerton Avenue.* WOCK-LD (is that the right thing to call RF4?) and WCHU-LD are both overrestricted.

Yep, it is...WOCK-LD has a construction permit to go omnidirectional...which requires a new antenna...that they don't have money for. WCHU-LD isn't, because they had to work around WITI's 1 mw power. They're a flamethrower up there...and one thing I didn't address in previous emails is this: Yes, WITI will stomp on WCHU just about everywhere when there is tropo. Bank on it.

jimboy

11-21-09, 08:34 AM

WCGV is on a temporary antenna and low height due to tower issues, so it is a lot easier to interfere with. Again, though, you aren't in their market area, so getting them was a "bonus". Even though it is great to get them, and yes, I wish they wouldn't interfere. But again, WCGV was being interfered with *inside* the market. That isn't going to happen with WITI.

Regarding WCGV......no we're not. Currently running at full power and was always at the "Top O Tower" since 2003. WVTV is the station with issues (also at the top of the tower but at 240kw instead of 1000kw).

tvropro

11-21-09, 09:04 AM

Yes, WITI will stomp on WCHU just about everywhere when there is tropo. Bank on it.

Im sure of that. Attached is a picture of what I got on WITI with weak to moderate tropo by Midway airport last summer. This is before they did there upgrades. WCHU don't give me 25% of that and there local. You know who's going to win and I can't wait :D

I've been reading the posts about VHF and thunderstorms killing digital. Digital has no buffer and is too damn fussy. Analog would take lightning like a man and show up as static in the picture. Digital see's it as errors and falls off the cliff.

The FCC is scrambling to try to get things to work and never thought all these problems would happen. It will never be sorted out and totally fixed. I forsee a new digital standard being invented and adopted down the road. If Canada is smart they will be watching this quite closely and postpone there digital transition till something better comes along. They have some large remote area's to cover and VHF won't cut it in stormy conditions.

Trip in VA

11-21-09, 10:30 AM

Wouldn't make hvs10trk very happy, but WBBM could move to channel 39 if they wanted to. They would just have to get an interference agreement with WPXE in the Milwaukee market. Given ION's financial conditions, I can't see that as being too difficult.

I say that because I have to think that WWME-CA will ultimately end up operating digitally on channel 23, where the analog signal is presently, rather than on channel 39. And according to FCC regulations, the channel 23 analog signal gets protection, while the channel 39 digital does not.

- Trip

usmaak

11-21-09, 12:00 PM

Hi,

Since I managed to get WLS to come in on 44, I've been getting a signal between 76 and 78. Though not ideal, this is enough to keep a lock on my vip722. I just noticed that the signal is now around 70. Has anything happened? Have they decreased their output power?

sebenste

11-21-09, 01:47 PM

Im sure of that. Attached is a picture of what I got on WITI with weak to moderate tropo by Midway airport last summer. This is before they did there upgrades. WCHU don't give me 25% of that and there local. You know who's going to win and I can't wait :D

I've been reading the posts about VHF and thunderstorms killing digital. Digital has no buffer and is too damn fussy. Analog would take lightning like a man and show up as static in the picture. Digital see's it as errors and falls off the cliff.

The FCC is scrambling to try to get things to work and never thought all these problems would happen. It will never be sorted out and totally fixed. I forsee a new digital standard being invented and adopted down the road. If Canada is smart they will be watching this quite closely and postpone there digital transition till something better comes along. They have some large remote area's to cover and VHF won't cut it in stormy conditions.

There is *no* digital system that won't fall off a cliff in a thunderstorm that I have seen. And the UHF transition went generally very well; what the FCC didn't see coming was the VHF issues. Can you make digital decoding more robust? Maybe, but here's the thing: taking away an analog or digital signal and replacing it with noise or EMF simply results in decoding nothing. Maybe you can get tuners to re-sync faster, but the bottom line is that you cannot decode what you don't have. Analog signals recover more quickly from noise, to be sure, but let me say that I'm seeing digital pictures clearly that would drive me nuts under analog due to snow when there aren't storms.

Additionally, in many cases, if you are losing your digital signal due to "static crashes"/lightning discharge, you shouldn't be watching TV anyway (even if your antennas are indoors). Sure, Comcast likes to advertise they'll stay on during a "storm", but they don't say "electrical storm". That's because one bolt of lightning on the pole outside your home (or subdivision) can turn your beautiful HDTV into a molten piece of junk, even with a good UPS or surge suppressor on it. In those cases, you shouldn't consider that a reception issue, but as a warning to unplug your TV! :)

Finally...and this is a big issue. The FCC reception standard is to have a "proper antenna" 30' above ground level. This was in an era of "big homes". Now, many homes today are built 15' high, one story. That would be a better standard, IMO. Head to the TVTechnology.com mag out this month:

http://www.tvtechnology.com/section/digital-tv

Click on Charlie W. Rhodes November 10th article; as I type this, it's the first on the list. You'll probably have to read it a few times to grasp some concepts, but it's good stuff.

And for the record, with a large Winegard VHF-only antenna 15' off the ground in my one story townhome attic, rather low at the edge of a river valley, I'm getting WLS at 4.75 kilowatts with no problem 99% of the time, with a 70% signal quality on my DTT-900 converter box. Ditto WBBM. This is on the far northwest side of DeKalb, exactly 60.0 miles GPS distance from Sears Tower.

sebenste

11-21-09, 01:57 PM

Regarding WCGV......no we're not. Currently running at full power and was always at the "Top O Tower" since 2003. WVTV is the station with issues (also at the top of the tower but at 240kw instead of 1000kw).

D'oh! Hey Jimboy, thanks so much for stopping by, and for the correction! Sigh...keeping track of where everyone is at and what power is tough sometimes! I deleted the post with the incorrect information.

bigdnwi

11-21-09, 04:06 PM

bigdnwi

11-21-09, 04:09 PM

Yep, it is...WOCK-LD has a construction permit to go omnidirectional...which requires a new antenna...that they don't have money for. WCHU-LD isn't, because they had to work around WITI's 1 mw power. They're a flamethrower up there...and one thing I didn't address in previous emails is this: Yes, WITI will stomp on WCHU just about everywhere when there is tropo. Bank on it.

Why didn't they wait until WTMJ signed off in June to sign on their digital signal? They could have setup the omnidirectional antenna the first time instead of signing on with a severely directional antenna and then having to purchase a second antenna later on.

andyross63

11-21-09, 04:53 PM

Anybody else notice severe audio issues with WMAQ Friday? Nightly News was pretty much totaly garbled. Conan bounced in and out. Most commercials and local news was fine. Seems to be an issue with their network feed. For several months, there have been 'popping' issues at times.

I noticed this both OTA on my DTT, and through Comcast (analog, SD and HD digital).

sebenste

11-21-09, 10:15 PM

Why didn't they wait until WTMJ signed off in June to sign on their digital signal? They could have setup the omnidirectional antenna the first time instead of signing on with a severely directional antenna and then having to purchase a second antenna later on.

They probably didn't know if their omnidirectional request was going to go through quickly. In either case, and this is just my $.01, now that we know what we know of digital on VHF, and especially on VHF-LO, I'd sign on 49 ASAP. My guess is they can't afford it, based on their other FCC applications.

OTA_GUY

11-22-09, 12:19 AM

Head to the TVTechnology.com mag out this month:

http://www.tvtechnology.com/section/digital-tv

...it's good stuff.

read them all... the stuff about fmi and attic installs... good as gold! can't talk now, off to get my fm trap for my outdoor antenna with mast mounted preamp...

tvropro

11-22-09, 07:58 AM

There is *no* digital system that won't fall off a cliff in a thunderstorm that I have seen. And the UHF transition went generally very well; what the FCC didn't see coming was the VHF issues. Can you make digital decoding more robust? Maybe, but here's the thing: taking away an analog or digital signal and replacing it with noise or EMF simply results in decoding nothing. Maybe you can get tuners to re-sync faster, but the bottom line is that you cannot decode what you don't have. Analog signals recover more quickly from noise, to be sure, but let me say that I'm seeing digital pictures clearly that would drive me nuts under analog due to snow when there aren't storms.

Additionally, in many cases, if you are losing your digital signal due to "static crashes"/lightning discharge, you shouldn't be watching TV anyway (even if your antennas are indoors). Sure, Comcast likes to advertise they'll stay on during a "storm", but they don't say "electrical storm". That's because one bolt of lightning on the pole outside your home (or subdivision) can turn your beautiful HDTV into a molten piece of junk, even with a good UPS or surge suppressor on it. In those cases, you shouldn't consider that a reception issue, but as a warning to unplug your TV! :)

Finally...and this is a big issue. The FCC reception standard is to have a "proper antenna" 30' above ground level. This was in an era of "big homes". Now, many homes today are built 15' high, one story. That would be a better standard, IMO. Head to the TVTechnology.com mag out this month:

http://www.tvtechnology.com/section/digital-tv

Click on Charlie W. Rhodes November 10th article; as I type this, it's the first on the list. You'll probably have to read it a few times to grasp some concepts, but it's good stuff.

And for the record, with a large Winegard VHF-only antenna 15' off the ground in my one story townhome attic, rather low at the edge of a river valley, I'm getting WLS at 4.75 kilowatts with no problem 99% of the time, with a 70% signal quality on my DTT-900 converter box. Ditto WBBM. This is on the far northwest side of DeKalb, exactly 60.0 miles GPS distance from Sears Tower.

They should have never sold off 52-69 in fact they should still have UHF go to 83. This would have allowed plenty of frequency's available for everyone to be on UHF. They could have sold off 2-13 instead.

The only thing I can think of with rebuilding the digital system to be immune to dropouts from short bursts of static etc that can cause errors is. If they used a massive amount of pre buffering with signals being resent a few times (in case of interruption) and were able to make one good signal out of all that data. That in theory would mask any symptoms of breakup on the screen to the end user.

I agree that anyone that has there tv on during a bad storm is a fool. If they get a real lightning hit they wont have to worry about intermittent breakup.

On antenna's people do not want to use a good setup that covers all VHF and UHF. The install needs to include proper location, antenna, height, lead in and pre and or distribution amplifier. Outside is a must in problem area's for any channel. I have used the attic route with varying results (Im 8-10 miles from the transmitters in a fairly good signal area as far as multipath and gain) I still put my antenna's outside. WHY? Better performance. The hell with these area's where they have restrictions on antenna size etc. I could never survive there. Having 4 satellite dishes from 12 feet to 20 inches and 8 tv antenna's outside they would hang me. :D One thing I have to say for all my dishes and antenna's though. I have NO reception issues. :)

Trip in VA

11-22-09, 08:28 AM

The only thing I can think of with rebuilding the digital system to be immune to dropouts from short bursts of static etc that can cause errors is. If they used a massive amount of pre buffering with signals being resent a few times (in case of interruption) and were able to make one good signal out of all that data. That in theory would mask any symptoms of breakup on the screen to the end user.

They do this on the radio. It's called "IBOC" or by the misleading marketing term "HD Radio." The result is that it takes 5 seconds to change channels.

People complain our digital system takes too long to change channels as it is.

- Trip

zippyfrog

11-22-09, 11:41 AM

People complain our digital system takes too long to change channels as it is.

- Trip

For the past two years I have wondered why this is. What causes the channel to take longer to change? With my HD tv, when I changed the analog channels (back before the transition) they went quickly, but the digital do take an extra second or two. What about the technology makes it slower?

ProjectSHO89

11-22-09, 01:40 PM

For the past two years I have wondered why this is. What causes the channel to take longer to change? With my HD tv, when I changed the analog channels (back before the transition) they went quickly, but the digital do take an extra second or two. What about the technology makes it slower?

The ATSC stream is a digital data transmission.

It takes a bit of time for the decoder to lock in, plus, there's also a bit of buffering doing on so that forward error correction can be applied if needed.

Some decoders are slower than others, some much faster.

If you want sloooooooowwww... you ought to see my Directv DVR box... damn thing is like molasses...

Rammitinski

11-22-09, 04:39 PM

ABC and TiVo finally got their act together, and they now have guide info for the new frequencies.

So I was finally able to delete the RF7 versions, which have been showing lower SS readings (didn't start out that way - but there was at least a 10-point difference when I checked before I deleted tham last night).

Also wanted to make everyone aware that ThisTV is re-running "Night of the Comet" tonight at 6 pm (they showed it late last night, and I recorded it, and plan on archiving it to DVD).

It's a great, little camp gem of an 80's Sci-Fi/Horror "B" flick. I hadn't seen it in over 20 years, myself.

Even if you don't like that sort of stuff, and you're a healthy, red-blooded, hetero American male, it's still worth watching just to see Kelli Maroney dancing around in baby doll lingerie. But hang around 'till the end anyway - the final scene is sure to elicit a good smile out of you. Not "classic cinema" by any means, but a very entertaining movie nonetheless. All I kept thinking throughout it was "Why don't they make fun, charming, little "B" movies like this anymore?".

sebenste

11-22-09, 04:39 PM

They should have never sold off 52-69 in fact they should still have UHF go to 83. This would have allowed plenty of frequency's available for everyone to be on UHF. They could have sold off 2-13 instead.

It's not that simple. In rural areas, 7-13 are gold. In fact, a station in Alaska
had an emergency filing and went back to VHF because that's qall they pretty much use up there. They have to, for long range TV reception.
For that purpose, VHF is superior, no question, as ong as antennas are outside.

The only thing I can think of with rebuilding the digital system to be immune to dropouts from short bursts of static etc that can cause errors is. If they used a massive amount of pre buffering with signals being resent a few times (in case of interruption) and were able to make one good signal out of all that data. That in theory would mask any symptoms of breakup on the screen to the end user.

And if you do that, it would take 10 seconds to tune in a channel, and you see where that thought has gone just above this post! :D

I agree that anyone that has there tv on during a bad storm is a fool. If they get a real lightning hit they wont have to worry about intermittent breakup.

On antenna's people do not want to use a good setup that covers all VHF and UHF. The install needs to include proper location, antenna, height, lead in and pre and or distribution amplifier. Outside is a must in problem area's for any channel. I have used the attic route with varying results (Im 8-10 miles from the transmitters in a fairly good signal area as far as multipath and gain) I still put my antenna's outside. WHY? Better performance. The hell with these area's where they have restrictions on antenna size etc. I could never survive there. Having 4 satellite dishes from 12 feet to 20 inches and 8 tv antenna's outside they would hang me. :D One thing I have to say for all my dishes and antenna's though. I have NO reception issues. :)

:D on the lightning comment! And yep, outdoor antennas perform much, much better...usually by 90% on average, sometimes a lot, lot more rhan that. Check over in the Indianapolis OTA forum. Steve Goldrich has a large stacked antenna array and last week was able to DX UHF signals from near the Gulf coast last week...over 650 miles! Heck, even with my attic antenna, I was nailing signals from St. Louis to Alpena, MI this summer. I can't imagine what I could have done with it outdoors and up 20' higher. Heck, I remember when Rammitinski was locking stations from Minneapolis (and I think a few others) when I was on vacation one day (always works out that way, sigh!).
My simple rule of thumb: buy an antenna 2 sizes larger than recommended, and get it outside, and you'll be on par as Comcast with reception.

Rammitinski

11-22-09, 06:05 PM

sebenste

11-22-09, 06:47 PM

I don't remember Minneapolis, specifically (maybe I did - I just don't remember). The furthest I can remember, perhaps because it was more recent, was far, far downstate IL, and over the border into southern Indiana - think I even picked up Kentucky briefly - last year after I got the Channel Master CECB.

I also remember early on picking up Grand Rapids with the USDTV tuner, which was rather weak compared to what's out now (and that was in the worst direction, through a ton of trees).

As far west as I can sometimes get is Quad Cities.

You must really have a lot of open, reasonably flat land in your southern direction (prarie, I'd assume). I think I have a lot of congestion and interference up this way, going out in most directions (but do pretty good notwithstanding).

I also am not as high above ground level as I originally thought - it's just that the ground dips around me, so it's kind of deceiving. I'm actually about right at ground level towards Chicago.

Yep, it was you who briefly got it, I remember. But, I have a pretty big west-east oriented ridge about 5 miles south of me. That typically blocks Peoria (I've only gotten WMBD 3 times, and only this year) for me, as well as Champaign. Also, west of me, I have the Creston Ridge, which hurts me westbound as well, but not as bad. But, northwest-northeast-southeast, I do well. But as for you, you get up and over all the ridges...so you've got a nice clean shot at everything. Crystal Lake is a nice hotspot for reception...with a good antenna, you should also be able to get Madison now. From the Chain O'Lakes, I easily locked WKOW-DT (ABC 26/27.X) from Madison.

radioinsomnia

11-23-09, 02:05 AM

Anybody else notice severe audio issues with WMAQ Friday? Nightly News was pretty much totaly garbled. Conan bounced in and out. Most commercials and local news was fine. Seems to be an issue with their network feed. For several months, there have been 'popping' issues at times.

Yes. Watching L&O on my TiVo is just plain obnoxious. Never have I heard these "popping" issues so frequently during a show.

kd9fz

11-23-09, 04:48 AM

with the temperature dropping and furaces, electric heaters, blower fans and the assorted other electrical heat generating devices being turned on,

on my dtt-901 fed by rabbit ears / loop combo and using the coax provided to an analog tv on channel 3, i noticed those dancing dots of electrical interference the other day
the picture doesnt break up, so maybe it is coming in through the power cords

i am curious if anyone else has seen this

kd9fz
comments, criticisms and questions of sanity are always welcome

George Molnar

11-23-09, 09:11 AM

swiat

11-23-09, 10:35 AM

Would it make any difference to the currents on the coax to ground the coaxial shield at the antenna mast? I have a mast that is grounded and the coax is grounded at entry to the house. However, the coaxial cable is not grounded at the mast. Would it make any difference to ground the shield currents (maybe using a hose clamp) if I did? My experience from higher frequencies and repeater installs says yes, this will help, but that is with a TX application. We are talking about RX so I was just wondering.

You never know about these unbalanced transmission line systems.

hvs10trk

11-23-09, 01:09 PM

swiat

11-23-09, 03:36 PM

Bringing everything to the same ground plane is always a good idea. Not only from a noise standpoint but a lightning protection point as well.

I assume you may be referring to mitigating noise by eliminating ground loops?

andyross63

11-23-09, 05:02 PM

The ATSC stream is a digital data transmission.

It takes a bit of time for the decoder to lock in, plus, there's also a bit of buffering doing on so that forward error correction can be applied if needed.

Some decoders are slower than others, some much faster.

If you want sloooooooowwww... you ought to see my Directv DVR box... damn thing is like molasses...

Different TV's respond differently. When looking for a small 19" for the bedroom, I had narrowed down to a Sharp and a Samsung. In doing some testing, I realized that the Sharp's digital tuner was VERY slow. The Samsung's digital is nearly as fast as the analog. At worst, it sometimes takes 1-2 seconds for the video to show, but the audio is often nearly instant.

The only issue I have with the Samsung is that once it sets a channel as analog, there is no way to make it see digital unless I do a full rescan.

hvs10trk

11-23-09, 06:00 PM

I assume you may be referring to mitigating noise by eliminating ground loops?
Yep. Found it in our office a few times.

veets

11-23-09, 09:51 PM

They should have never sold off 52-69 in fact they should still have UHF go to 83. This would have allowed plenty of frequency's available for everyone to be on UHF.

Well, that may have been just the beginning of the spectrum loss for broadcast TV:

Spectrum Comments Pour into FCC
TV Technology
November 19, 2009

The National Association of Broadcasters in Washington, D.C. urged the commission to keeps its mitts off of television spectrum. The NAB was joined in its comments by the Association for Maximum Service TV:

“MSTV and NAB herein reject the notion put forth by a select few commenters affiliated with the commercial wireless industry--namely, that to achieve a world-class broadband ecosystem, one must curtail or even eliminate consumers’ access to a free and robust over-the-air digital television service.”

The wireless industry is hotly pursuing the notion that using airwaves for broadband is a far better use of spectrum than TV. The Wireless Association (CTIA), along with the Consumer Electronics Association, asked the FCC this week to “investigate potential reallocation of broadcast spectrum.”

“To our knowledge,” they wrote, “the commission has never conducted a detailed evaluation of advanced television services, nor has it made an assessment of alternative uses and the ability of the commission to reduce the amount of spectrum assigned to broadcast television licensees.

“This spectrum is uniquely suited for mobile broadband applications, devices and services--it has highly favorable propagation characteristics and is directly adjacent to the 700 and 800 MHz spectrum utilized by the commercial wireless industry. We therefore urge the commission to take immediate action to initiate the Congressionally mandated evaluation of broadcast television spectrum usage.”

http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/90722

They are talking about the end of broadcast (free) TV here. From what I have been reading, there seems to be a surprising amount of public support for continued expansion of wireless services into the broadcast spectrum. Let's face it, OTA households are only a small percentage of viewers. The CEA and CTIA are powerful lobbying organizations, and our debt ridden government needs the dollars that selling off the spectrum will generate.

What are the chances that this could really happen?

There is some interesting discussion on this here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1192114

swiat

11-24-09, 10:10 AM

They are talking about the end of broadcast (free) TV here. From what I have been reading, there seems to be a surprising amount of public support for continued expansion of wireless services into the broadcast spectrum. Let's face it, OTA households are only a small percentage of viewers. The CEA and CTIA are powerful lobbying organizations, and our debt ridden government needs the dollars that selling off the spectrum will generate.

What are the chances that this could really happen?

There is some interesting discussion on this here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1192114

Hard not to guess Orange Julius would pull something like this after details of net neutrality have leaked out. The end game is to get as much spectrum as they can and then hike taxes to subsidize internet for very low to no income people. So in effect, you're taking away their free TV so they can have free internet? How crazy is this concept?

GO NAB! Stop this! Not fair to ask the NAB to surrender more spectrum after losing almost a 1/3 of their spectrum after the digital transition. Many are calling VHF spectrum lost, so to ask for more out of this? Crazy. Really crazy. We already have stations around here getting stomped on left and right now that's not enough?

I don't have a smart phone and I don't want to pay $40 more a month for a data plan. So, I get nothing along with many other people. Here's a suggestion, Orange Julius, how about making more efficient use of the spectrum you have by investigating compression techniques and new modulations?

TheKorn

11-24-09, 03:25 PM

What causes the channel to take longer to change? With my HD tv, when I changed the analog channels (back before the transition) they went quickly, but the digital do take an extra second or two. What about the technology makes it slower?

Well, you really have two things ganging up on you...

1) It takes longer to lock onto a digital signal. This has to do with how the digital signal is encoded when it's put on the air. It doesn't take a tremendously longer time than analog, but it does take longer before the digital bits are locked on and flowing out.

...but at that point all you have is digital 1s and 0s. You haven't actually made a picture at that point. That's where the second delay kicks in...

2) MPEG GOP decoding. To make it super simple to understand (and absolutely not completely technically correct but it'll give you the basics), the MPEG stream doesn't look like "full picture, full picture, full picture" like an analog transmission does. It looks like "full picture, just the changes from picture 1 needed to make picture 2, changes from 2 to 3, changes from 3 to 4, changes from 4 to 5, .... changes from 14 to 15, full picture, changes from 1 to 2, ...". So if you're unlucky and happen to jump into the stream right when it says "just the changes from picture 1 to picture 2", you're boned. Your decoder has missed the start point (the reference, or "I" frame), and literally has to just wait around until another "whole picture" frame shows up.

Ever see during a storm or other interference how the entire picture will sometimes freak out, for a second or so you'll get what look like movements, then the entire picture will 'snap' back in? That's what you get when you get a transmission error on an I frame. Your decoder still gets all the "changes" messages and acts on them, but they're acting on a garbage start point. Eventually another I frame (whole picture) comes in, and everything essentially starts over from that point.

(It's also how you can sometimes get errors in just a section of a picture. That happens when one of the "changes" messages gets garbled instead of an I frame.)

At worst, it sometimes takes 1-2 seconds for the video to show, but the audio is often nearly instant.

Yup, in comparison the audio portion looks more like "audio audio audio audio". There is a very small delay in decoding it, but audio doesn't use the concept of a reference frame so you can pretty much start decoding the audio immediately as you get it. Many sets simply throw out the audio data until they get to a video I-frame, so they can start everything in sync. Obviously the one you're talking about doesn't do that.

andyross63

11-26-09, 10:14 AM

George Mari

11-27-09, 04:08 PM

I'm a bit confused by the maps from TVFool.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dbc2799f0406dfd

According to that, I should barely be able to get WYIN, but WOCK and WOCH should be better. In reality, WYIN is generally OK. I occasionally get WOCK, and don't think I've gotten WOCH. I never even knew W57DN or WEDE or W25DW even existed.

TVFool is a great tool - but you have to combine it with information specific to your antenna, and your installation.

For example, you say that WOCK should be easier for you to get than WYIN - that is true - the noise margin for WOCK-CD being 33.1dB, and for WYIN it's 10.7dB.

But WOCK is on VHF 4 and WYIN is on UHF 17 - how sensitive is your antenna at VHF 4? And UHF 17 is at the low end of the UHF scale - some antennas can lose several dB of sensitivity at either end (low or high) of the UHF freq. range. Even my CM 4228 is something like 3 dB down on UHF 17 from it's max sensitivity higher up the channel range.

Another thing - WYIN shows as 32 degrees difference in compass heading (azimuth) compared to the other 2 you mention - that could be a big deal for your particular antenna, meaning you cannot just assume that if your pointed "close enough" to get one, you should be able to get the other(s).

andyross63

11-27-09, 05:07 PM

This is an apartment building, with a common antenna split across 16 units. I'm amazed anything works. It's probably original and therefore dates to about 1986. It's missing one section and another is bent.

Even how it's distributed seems weird. There is coax, but instead of a splitter or tap, it uses 2 resistors & caps to a twinlead connection. The red/black wires in the picture go to a 75/75 matching transformer from some old antenna I had. I think it basically just converts between leads and F-connector. I obviously get a stronger signal than converting the 300 back to 75.

George Mari

11-28-09, 09:04 AM

This is an apartment building, with a common antenna split across 16 units. I'm amazed anything works. It's probably original and therefore dates to about 1986. It's missing one section and another is bent.

Yeah, it does look a bit worse for wear. But at least it's outdoors, on a roof.

So, what was it you were confused about with TVFool again? :-)

tvropro

11-28-09, 10:55 AM

andyross63

11-29-09, 09:06 AM

Thats an antenna tap with 75 to 300 ohm conversion in the wall plate assembly. To get maximum signal I would bypass the plate and tie in direct to the coax. :)
That's exactly what I do.

Before it moved, WBBM on RF3 was very strong. WLS on RF7 is generally strong, although a few days ago it was bouncing around and very glitchy. RF44 was fine.

fccgrant

11-29-09, 01:42 PM

Master antenna systems are not the same as an antenna on someone's house. Master antennas are geared for apartment buildings and doing something wrong may not only affect you but may also affect other people in the building. The cabling is daisy chained from unit to unit.

Direct connection to the coax may be OK for testing but should not be used for a permanent installation.

To allow 16 units in an apartment building to receive a signal from one antenna an amplifier is placed just below the antenna. Units close to the amplifier get more attenuation (the resistors on the back of the wall plate determine this) with units further away getting less attenuation. The capacitor is to keep any AC voltage present to go to ground rather than to your TV. This is especially important if the the amplifier fails. Bypassing the cap and having a suitable amount of AC voltage going into the antenna connection of your TV may result in damage to your TV or possible shock.

The resistors also provide sufficient isolation from other televisions connected to the system. Connecting directly to the coax may result in excellent reception at your TV but cause poor reception for anyone else connected to the system. If you are close to the amplifier then your TV may be overloaded.

If you want to change to a 75 ohm connector then I suggest you purchase and install the Winegard ST-7700 and place the same amount of attenuation that is on your current connection. The ideal would be to have your landlord call someone qualified to change the connector so that other residents in your building aren't affected.

tvropro

11-29-09, 06:45 PM

TWinbrook46636

11-29-09, 09:51 PM

What is the deal with the WXFT and WGBO antenna/transmitter situation?

38.1 RF38 no id, no picture (82%) *not to be confused with WCPX also on 38.1*

60.1 RF50 WXFT Telefutura (65%)
60.2 RF50 WGBO no picture (65%)
60.2 RF38 WXFT Telefutura (82%)

66.1 RF38 WBGO Univision (82%)
66.2 RF50 WGBO Univision (65%)

fccgrant

11-30-09, 01:00 AM

It probably is a tap at 15-30 db down, but the way the antenna was I would guess the Matv system probably ain't being used anymore by many if any. The distribution amp is probably dead and the tenants have cable I bet. But you are right about it affecting the rest of the chain.

If the amp was dead then he would be getting no picture. I just went through this with 4 buildings in a condo complex where I live.

And after the HD transition you'd be amazed how many people wanted to hook up to the master which resulted in the discovery of the just mentioned amp failures.

tvropro

11-30-09, 08:09 AM

If the amp was dead then he would be getting no picture. I just went through this with 4 buildings in a condo complex where I live.

And after the HD transition you'd be amazed how many people wanted to hook up to the master which resulted in the discovery of the just mentioned amp failures.

Depending where the building is located and how strong the signal at the input is, if an amp was dead some signal will pass through. Will it be enough to lock a digital signal ? maybe.

Im sure quite a few people are trying to hook up to old Matv systems to find them not working at all, not working well etc. Sometimes buildings get rewired for cable and they use some or all of the existing wiring.

The age and condition of the antenna at the building in question with using a 300 ohm wall plate says that the system is probably 25 plus years old. I would say there are probably other issues in that system that goes beyond the antenna. I wonder how many landlords are willing to spend tall dollars to redo the matv system just to have a few tenants hook up to it? Most people in apartments and the like subscribe to cable or little dish systems these days.

The point Im trying to make is messing around with the old system could benefit him if he's the only one hooked up. It may not be right because it is not his to mess with and it will cause other issues for others if hooked up. He should consult his landlord to the status of the system and get permission to do anything. In theory my first statement in my first post would be the best solution to receiving the most signal but can open open up a can of worms for others.