Hello all,

It is amazing sometimes to think how TV stations on top of Sears Tower (or any tall tower) manage to stay on the air during a thunderstorm. A guy I know, David Mayhew, is learning about meteorology and storm chasing, but he is most definitely an expert photographer. And now, he's learning
to combine those skills and, well...see for yourself. These were taken Thursday, August 23, 2007.

http://davidmayhewphotography.com/galleries/main.php?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=16572

He was mad though. The reason? Two of the strikes he missed getting on Sears Tower featured an explosion of sparks when the bolt hit the antenna mast...and he missed them both, but got all the others!

Still, not bad, eh? Reportedly, the winds from the storm were shaking the good ol' Sears so bad that on the top floors, you couldn't walk in a straight line.

When one of the stations (I think WMAQ-DT) did a cutaway from their live Hancock cam during that storm, you could clearly tell the building was swaying!

Enjoy.

wttw has not been the same for me since the storms, anyone else?

I just gave my daughter my not-so-old plasma, but she is still using rabbit ears, my protests and nagging notwithstanding. So naturally she doesn't get many channels clearly (never has). She has limited placement options for the antenna, which doesn't help. Obviously, the top of the set is no longer an option as it was with her old 25" CRT.

I've temporarily hooked up two (one to each tuner), one her amplified Jensen, the other a passive Radio Shack I lent her, because it had worked well in my spare bedroom. The passive RS seems to work much better (why is that?).

She is in a one story bungalow on the northwest side of the city, about 8-1/2 miles from the towers at roughly 5000 north and 5000 west. This close, it seems that even a rabbit ears would work, although good old WBBM-DT remains in the green range. Any suggestions for an indoor antenna that might actually do the job? (She resists an outdoor, primarily for financial reasons.)

After you stop laughing, what outdoor model(s) would you recommend? I suspect almost any would work, but given that labor is likely to cost more that the antenna itself, it seems prudent to get one that will withstand our "challenging" climate for many years.

There is an antenna on the roof already. It's hard to see, much less guess what shape it might be in. The only coax I've found, though, seems to be the previous owner's cable connection. At least hooking it up yields no signal whatsoever. Do you think there is a reasonable chance that all that would be needed is new RG6 from the existing antenna? I know my 40 year old one works very well, but I don't know if it is the rare exception.

How would you recommend I find an installer (none of us is going to go up on the roof :eek:)? Cost is an object! There must be a better option than picking someone blindly from the yellow pages.???

I realize these questions are asked repeatedly, but I haven't found an answer that fits this situation (or didn't know it if I did).

Thanks for any help.

wttw has not been the same for me since the storms, anyone else?

Locking fine in DeKalb.

I just gave my daughter my not-so-old plasma, but she is still using rabbit ears, my protests and nagging notwithstanding. So naturally she doesn't get many channels clearly (never has). She has limited placement options for the antenna, which doesn't help. Obviously, the top of the set is no longer an option as it was with her old 25" CRT.

I've temporarily hooked up two (one to each tuner), one her amplified Jensen, the other a passive Radio Shack I lent her, because it had worked well in my spare bedroom. The passive RS seems to work much better (why is that?).

More than likely, it is because you are amplifying more noise than signal than the Jensen. And as rabbit ears go, the RS model is decent. That's my "test" antenna, if you have the model I have.

She is in a one story bungalow on the northwest side of the city, about 8-1/2 miles from the towers at roughly 5000 north and 5000 west. This close, it seems that even a rabbit ears would work, although good old WBBM-DT remains in the green range. Any suggestions for an indoor antenna that might actually do the job? (She resists an outdoor, primarily for financial reasons.)

Does she have an attic? If not, you said she has limited options. See if those "limited options" work with the rabbit ears. At 8.5 miles, I would say 5-10 miles is max for rabbit ears for WBBM, and 15 miles for UHF.


After you stop laughing, what outdoor model(s) would you recommend? I suspect almost any would work, but given that labor is likely to cost more that the antenna itself, it seems prudent to get one that will withstand our "challenging" climate for many years.

At that distance, even a small WInegard "Square Shooter" should work fine:

http://www.winegard.com/offair/squareshooter.htm

You can get one at Tri-State Electronics, I think.


There is an antenna on the roof already. It's hard to see, much less guess what shape it might be in. The only coax I've found, though, seems to be the previous owner's cable connection. At least hooking it up yields no signal whatsoever. Do you think there is a reasonable chance that all that would be needed is new RG6 from the existing antenna? I know my 40 year old one works very well, but I don't know if it is the rare exception.


Without seeing the setup, it's impossible to tell where it goes. I would, if it is safe to do so, have someone go up there and see what condition it is in, and if the old cable has fallen off/broken.


How would you recommend I find an installer (none of us is going to go up on the roof :eek:)? Cost is an object! There must be a better option than picking someone blindly from the yellow pages.???

I realize these questions are asked repeatedly, but I haven't found an answer that fits this situation (or didn't know it if I did).

Thanks for any help.

I would try the easy solution first: maybe get an extension cable for the Radio Shack rabbit ears and see if it can work. Does the antenna have a clear shot to Sears/Hancock?

wttw has not been the same for me since the storms, anyone else?

Not for me either, but then all my OTA HD stations are now poor compared to before the storms. Maybe my pre-amp got toasted, as I did loose my cable modem and one port on my router. Time to go up on the roof and replace the pre-amp to see if that makes an improvement.

...Does she have an attic? If not, you said she has limited options. See if those "limited options" work with the rabbit ears. At 8.5 miles, I would say 5-10 miles is max for rabbit ears for WBBM, and 15 miles for UHF.

At that distance, even a small WInegard "Square Shooter" should work fine... Thanks for the response. You deserve to be paid for this. :)

I never considered one like the Square Shooter because I thought they'd be UHF only.

It looks like it might be easy to place. Would it work somewhere other than on the roof? They picture it that way, but I don't know the reception conditions at the pictured installations. If it could, I might be able to find a spot I could deal with, although I'm not sure.

In any case, I'll talk to her about the Square Shooter. She would appreciate its small size, I know.

...Does she have an attic? If not, you said she has limited options. See if those "limited options" work with the rabbit ears. At 8.5 miles, I would say 5-10 miles is max for rabbit ears for WBBM, and 15 miles for UHF...I would try the easy solution first: maybe get an extension cable for the Radio Shack rabbit ears and see if it can work. Does the antenna have a clear shot to Sears/Hancock?The options are limited by having only a couple of places to put the rabbit ears, both low (tables), and small rooms, making it difficult to position the elements without them being in the way. Moreover, they've never found a single position that works for all stations, so the antenna has to be where they can see the TV while they maneuver the "ears" around.

She has an attic, and a clear shot to the towers, but the second reason she resists an outdoor antenna is that she doesn't like the idea of holes being drilled in her walls. I've finally gotten her to consider that the hole her existing "cable to nowhere" comes through could be reused, but I'm sure she'd draw the line at drilling another.

She probably wouldn't trust me to do it anyway, having a lifetime's worth of experience with what a klutz I am. :o The only one I know who might rival my DYI incompetence is her husband. ;) So, if we have to hire someone anyway, we might as well do it right.

Thanks again for all your help, not only to me but to so many other members.:cool:

You're probably right. I thought the days were past when I could simply go over to my friend's house and watch WTMJ in the NW burbs. I guess people no longer know how to do it because everyone's been into cable for so long, and antenna reception has become a lost science.

Long,

I can say this. Ground clutter is not really the problem. People put up either inadequate antennas, lead-in cable, make poor connections or use poor connectors, or point the antenna incorrectly. If any one of these is bad,
you're toast. I've been doing this now for 4 years, and I've learned that the connectors are killer. Mess that up, and you can have a 4228 on top of a 300' tower, but you won't get much or anything.

I practiced in my attic on how to do connections right, find what connectors work best, what cable does...and when/why to use what. One of the antennas I recommended to a friend in Hoffman Estates was the Winegard HD 8200P. He can lock WTVO with no tropo off the side with a 4th gen tuner, while pointing at Chicago. He locks WBBM-DT easily(!).

I don't think it's much more difficult on UHF. In fact, with digital, the signal is roughly 18 dB cleaner. I was told when I first jumped on AVS that DX'ing or even 70 mile reception wasn't possible. I was getting WCIU-DT at 15 kw exactly 60 miles away from the transmitter (measured via GPS), low near a river valley, with channel 27 in Madison interfering from time to time. People got 2.3 kw WQRF-DT (at the time, at that low power) 40 miles out. And I could lock it on a roof 60' up in Crystal Lake, 50 miles out!

Once you get above 400 kilowatts on UHF, it's all about the height of the antenna: yours and the station. Assuming yours is decent. The fact that someone who has done it right in Dundee can lock them should being hope to some of you that it is possible.

Thanks for the response. You deserve to be paid for this. :)

Cash only, please. ;):D


I never considered one like the Square Shooter because I thought they'd be UHF only.

It will pick up VHF 10-15 miles out. For the 'burbs, it won't be reliable, for the most part, unless you are close in.

It looks like it might be easy to place. Would it work somewhere other than on the roof? They picture it that way, but I don't know the reception conditions at the pictured installations. If it could, I might be able to find a spot I could deal with, although I'm not sure.
It will work anywhere you can get reception. Remember, if analog reception is halfway decent, digital is possible. A friend of mine who lives in Elburn
took a dipole antenna with a DTV tuner on his laptop, and laid it on the floor on the first floor of his home. He still locked most stations from Chicago!
No significant tropo, either.


In any case, I'll talk to her about the Square Shooter. She would appreciate its small size, I know.

The options are limited by having only a couple of places to put the rabbit ears, both low (tables), and small rooms, making it difficult to position the elements without them being in the way. Moreover, they've never found a single position that works for all stations, so the antenna has to be where they can see the TV while they maneuver the "ears" around.
Yeah, that's classic analog with rabbit ears in the house.

She has an attic, and a clear shot to the towers, but the second reason she resists an outdoor antenna is that she doesn't like the idea of holes being drilled in her walls. I've finally gotten her to consider that the hole her existing "cable to nowhere" comes through could be reused, but I'm sure she'd draw the line at drilling another.
That's understandable. But with a clear shot to the towers, you know...before you get the Square SHooter, hook up the "rabbit ears". You might get fortunate.

She probably wouldn't trust me to do it anyway, having a lifetime's worth of experience with what a klutz I am. :o The only one I know who might rival my DYI incompetence is her husband. ;) So, if we have to hire someone anyway, we might as well do it right.

LOL! I'm a strange bird. Up until I was about 25, I was only gusty enough to go on a V-shaped roof to adjust weather instruments. As I get older, my balance has actually improved. Ah, well..I am definitely not complaining!


Thanks again for all your help, not only to me but to so many other members.:cool:

My pleasure. I can relax a bit this year as I won't be bombarded with "how do I get WBBM-DT?" for the Super Bowl. With FOX carrying it, I can just say..."see that coat hanger in your closet? Put a little lead-in cable to it and attach to the TV, and voila!" :D

By the way, although I only watched a little bit of it, I noticed WMAQ's local production of the Bears game tonight was in widescreen, and possibly HD? I don't have an HDTV, I just use my tuner to "letterbox" it. Either way, it was noticed, and was a very solid looking broadcast, too!

Yes, it was HD, and it looked real good. Maybe not quite as sharp as WBBM's games, but no artifacts at all directly related to the game - only a little on those "spinning scene changes" involving graphics and the like. It was a bit sharper than WFLD's games usually are.

I don't know - WFLD-DT hasn't really been impressing me as much as they used to lately. I seem to be noticing a lot more artifacting in general on there these days.

Also, I've got to remember to drop WYCC a line soon. When they cut off analog, we're going to only have that inferior blurry, smeary digital signal. I used to barely be able to handle watching it on my smaller, analog set, but the difference really shows with my 50" display now. It's so bad, I hardly even watch it anymore. The analog channel is a little snowy, but it's sharp as a tack and shows much more detail. It's bad enough that you'd think they would've noticed by now and tried to do something about it.

Looking at the Packers schedule, they have 2 games on WDJT and the rest that aren't in primetime are on WITI. Unless that late season flex scheduling moves them to primetime. The only time they might have a game on ABC would be a preseason game. You'd probably get a better answer from a Packer fan though.

Any idea on what would be a good height to get that 4228 up to? I do believe I have a pretty clear line of sight in that direction.

Tom

I do have a CM 4228 and when I lived in Walworth in a apartment I was on second floor facing south and have clear view to the southeast to southwest. I had the 4228 w/CM 7777 and a rotor on the floor inside looking out the patio door about 25ft from the ground and I get Chicago 5,7,9,11,20,32 & 50 at 73 miles away with no problems. As all the Milwaukee station antenna farm is in Shorewood north of Milwaukee. GO to tvfool.com and see what your result will be it little better than antennaweb result. The 4228 should be your good choice if you really want to get Grand Rapids, MI station then HD8200 would be a good choice. Take your DB-4 outside with long cable and see what you can get if you get it but it breaks up then 4228 would be good choice to go. I have built a homemade DB-2 hookup to CM 7777 and use that as a test antenna. I was able to get Madison Fox 47-DT on 11 at 15kw at 60 miles away and the antenna pointed due east and the station is Northwest of me and Milwaukee PBS 10-DT on 8 at 25 kw with no problem. I did pickup WZZM ABC 13-DT from Grand Rapids, MI 140 miles away one night. Gilbert is right about WGN 9 and WMTV 15 which is on 19 I get mostly Madison NBC but when I loose that then I can get WGN station.

When you get the antenna up on the roof don't mount the antenna ont the roof right a way use a 2x4 or a 2x6 boad under the tripod each leg and put sand bags on them and move it around on the roof untill you find a sweet spot but also move the height as well when you move around then mount it onto the roof. When mount it on the roof make sure you put 2x6 or 2x8 under the roof sheeting to get better mounting footing as it will not try to pull out in heavy wind and use long bolts and nuts and large washers rather than using lag bolts.

There is Chester Electronics store in Kenosha they carry TV antenna can't remember if they carry CM or Wingard or both they even have antenna that the manufacter no longer make in stock havent been in there for long time. Otherwise there is Marmax in Franklin, WI they would have CM 4228 in stock along with CM 7777 and is a CM dealer and have all the needs to set up a roof mount.

-Willie

Yes, it was HD, and it looked real good.


Nice! Major kudos for them for doing that. I noticed WIFR-DT in Rockford was carrying it, but it was definitely SD 4:3 cropped.

I don't know - WFLD-DT hasn't really impressing me as much as they used to lately. I seem to be noticing a lot more artifacting in general on there these days.

I thought you said you had a new TV---correct me if I am wrong---but if so, could that be a contributing factor? Everything on WFLD-DT looks nice to me.
NBC artifacts like crazy on NASCAR, but other threads have pointed out it's because, in part, their backhaul isn't as good as, say, CBS'.


Also, I've got to remember to drop WYCC a line soon. When they cut off analog, we're going to only have that inferior blurry, smeary digital signal. I used to barely be able to handle watching it on my smaller, analog set, but the difference really shows with my 50" display now. It's so bad, I hardly even watch it anymore. The analog channel is a little snowy, but it's sharp as a tack and shows much more detail. It's bad enough that you'd think they would've noticed by now and tried to do something about it.

Oh, they know about it. I think the plan was that things would get upgraded after they settled into their new broadcast center, which they now have done. Occasionally, I'll watch the 10 PM BBC World News or the midnight coverage of DW's english news service. I'll watch it on analog if possible; that's difficult to do even in winter because of all the digital "hash" I get from WHA-DT 20 from Madison. When the Chicago analogs shut down, we'll be getting Madison frequently in the Chicago area in the spring-fall, methinks.
Their encoders definitely need to be upgraded, but they're on such a tight budget I don't know when it will happen. For the first time, they have really made an effort over the past year to do fundraising. I'm seeing employees I never knew they had do promos.

By the way, although I only watched a little bit of it, I noticed WMAQ's local production of the Bears game tonight was in widescreen, and possibly HD? I don't have an HDTV, I just use my tuner to "letterbox" it. Either way, it was noticed, and was a very solid looking broadcast, too!

for those that missed it, the game this thurs is reported to be in hd as well.

for those that missed it, the game this thurs is reported to be in hd as well.Yes, Channel 5 has been promoting it as such.

Hello all,

It is amazing sometimes to think how TV stations on top of Sears Tower (or any tall tower) manage to stay on the air during a thunderstorm.

I'd like to know that as well. Seems like lightening would blow out the transmitter. I've seen lightening strike the old WAUR tower here in Aurora countless times. That tower is of course abandoned, but the AM array that surrounds it is very much still in use.

I'd like to know that as well. Seems like lightening would blow out the transmitter. I've seen lightening strike the old WAUR tower here in Aurora countless times. That tower is of course abandoned, but the AM array that surrounds it is very much still in use.

Everything is VERY well grounded.

Everything is VERY well grounded.

Speaking of things that may or may not be well grounded, how's the WWME-LD install going? :D

Speaking of things that may or may not be well grounded, how's the WWME-LD install going? :D

Nice segway!:D Its going ok. It's in and was running for a time off air. We now have some minor issues with it that are being corrected and then we just need the antenna installed.

^ Same here. Someone recommend a good antenna. I live in Naperville near Route 58 and Hwy. 88. Are there some good ones for $30 or so?

I live near Waubonsie High School (Eola and Rt. 34) so I'm a little farther West than you. I use an Antennas Direct V4 MKII with a Channel Master 7777 preamp in my attic. I get great reception on all Chicago digital channels and often pick up 56.1/.2 from Gary as well.

If you want to get Ch. 2 digital (2.1 on channel 3) I don't think any $30 antenna will do the trick. The V4 MKII is under $50 and the 7777 runs about $50 as well. Still pretty cheap for a one time cost.

I like the V4 MKII because its pretty small and can easily fit in many attics. If you go roof mount, you can probably get a bigger and more capable VHF/UHF antenna and not need a pre-amp, but a good quality antenna is still going to run in the $80-$100 neighborhood.

If you don't mind missing Ch 2.1, an Antennas Direct DB4 is a very compact and capable UHF antenna. It can pull in some of the upper VHF as well. I'm sure Wineguard and Channel Master make their version of the "4 bow tie" anntenna, so you can shop around. Try www.solidsignal.com online. I think I've seen the DB4 at Tiger Direct across from Portillos on Jefferson and Rt. 59.

Again, spending $80 - $150 once for some good looking HD-TV is awfully cheap compared to even a $20 a month cable bill. :)

Dan (Woj...)

Hi guys...I've been reading through these posts and learned quite a bit. I just purchased my first hdtv about a week a go and wow! How did I ever watch tv without it? Anyway I'm using an RCA ANT706 which can be found here. http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=6830986&st=rca+ant&type=product&id=1091101854364

I live in the 53170 zip code borderline eastern WI and IL area. I'm having the same problems you would expect. No 2.1 and My 9.1 goes in and out which is very important for me to have because Im a huge baseball fan. I also want the 2.1 for football games. I do occasionally grab 58.1 which is cbs milwaukee but like 9.1 it's in and out. Is there a way I can boost my current setup? Or do I have to go for the db4 or channelmaster? Also, my tv is a new sharp aquos...how do I tell which generation tuner it is? Thanks in advance.

Hi guys...I've been reading through these posts and learned quite a bit. I just purchased my first hdtv about a week a go and wow! How did I ever watch tv without it? Anyway I'm using an RCA ANT706 which can be found here. http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=6830986&st=rca+ant&type=product&id=1091101854364

I live in the 53170 zip code borderline eastern WI and IL area. I'm having the same problems you would expect. No 2.1 and My 9.1 goes in and out which is very important for me to have because Im a huge baseball fan. I also want the 2.1 for football games. I do occasionally grab 58.1 which is cbs milwaukee but like 9.1 it's in and out. Is there a way I can boost my current setup? Or do I have to go for the db4 or channelmaster? Also, my tv is a new sharp aquos...how do I tell which generation tuner it is? Thanks in advance.

Hi Ourmuse, and welcome to the forum!

I'll answer the last question first, since it is easy: You have a 5th generation tuner. Definitely a good one!

Now, as for an antenna, that's an amplified indoor one, and is only reliable out to about 25 miles from the signal. You could go with a DB-2, which will get you 9. Unfortunately, 2.1 is the big problem. You would need a large outdoor antenna to get it from your distance, such as the Winegard
HD7084:

https://www.tselectronic.com/winegard/hd7084.html

Otherwise, a DB-2 would work, but would not let you get WBBM. On the other hand, with more gain, you should be able to get 58.1 from Milwaukee
with that antenna. I'll assume you live in a townhome/apartment where an outdoor antenna is impossible to do, or at least a big one, so a DB2 or ChannelMaster 4221 will work.

Hi Ourmuse, and welcome to the forum!

I'll answer the last question first, since it is easy: You have a 5th generation tuner. Definitely a good one!


Thanks! good to know.



Now, as for an antenna, that's an amplified indoor one, and is only reliable out to about 25 miles from the signal. You could go with a DB-2, which will get you 9. Unfortunately, 2.1 is the big problem. You would need a large outdoor antenna to get it from your distance.

I have a one similar to that but I'll need to see how it looks on the roof so I don't get bitched at by the landlord.

Otherwise, a DB-2 would work, but would not let you get WBBM. On the other hand, with more gain, you should be able to get 58.1 from Milwaukee
with that antenna. I'll assume you live in a townhome/apartment where an outdoor antenna is impossible to do, or at least a big one, so a DB2 or ChannelMaster 4221 will work.

Will I need an Amplifier for any of these? BTW I verified that I'm using rg6 throughout.

Will I need an Amplifier for any of these? BTW I verified that I'm using rg6 throughout.

If the antenna is placed indoors, yes. If outdoors, then no.

I'm thinking of getting the db4 and mounting it outside. You think that will do the trick? The RCA I have is mounted outside as of now. I also have this antenna that I just never put up

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103085&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032205&parentPage=family Would I be better off with the db4 or this? Thanks again for the help.

I'm thinking of getting the db4 and mounting it outside. You think that will do the trick? The RCA I have is mounted outside as of now. I also have this antenna that I just never put up

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103085&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032205&parentPage=family Would I be better off with the db4 or this? Thanks again for the help.

I would stay away from DB-4 and go with Channel Master 4221 4-bay because it will be cheaper than DB-4 and will have better pickup on VHF-hi (7-13). As you are about 45 miles away from Milwaukee antenna farm which is in Shorewood north of Milwaukee. I have a homebuilt DB-2 antenna indoor in a cloest on second floor apartment and I pick up all the Milwaukee station 43 miles away even the PBS 10 which is on 8 for the DT and I get northwest of me Madison 47-DT on 11 at 15 kw at 57 miles away and the antenna is pointing due east. But you will be 80-90 miles away from Madison so you may not get it with the 4221, but you will be at 50-60 miles range from Rockford station. and 60 miles range to Chicago. When I lived in Walworth I had a Channel Master 4228 and I get all Chicago station at 70 miles away, expect of course the famous WBBM 2-DT. I did pick up some the chicago station with the Homebuilt DB-2 but with allot of breakup.

Also, beware that WGN-9 and WMTV-15 both are on DT 19 Madison WMTV 15DT do have little more juice than WGN-9DT. May need more directional antenna.

That Radio Shack might not take the wind licking in that area too well.

-Willie

I'm thinking of getting the db4 and mounting it outside. You think that will do the trick? The RCA I have is mounted outside as of now. I also have this antenna that I just never put up

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103085&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032205&parentPage=family Would I be better off with the db4 or this? Thanks again for the help.

Well, that depends. As Willie above said, the 4221 will outperform a DB-4.
And while the Radio Shack VU-90 is decent for picking up stuff, Radio Shack antennas tend not to last very long outdoors. Since you have it, however, I'd say go for it and put that on the roof. I estimate it will last 5-10 years up there, unless you get hit with a whopper of a storm that takes trees down. Then all bets are off. I would normally not recommend this antenna but for indoor use and in suburban areas, but:

1. You already have it, and
2. Up there, it tends to be higher in elevation, and people get some pretty spectacular recption from Chicago in that area, for some reason.

I say give the VU-90 a try, without a preamp first, and then with one if you still have trouble.

absolutley insightful..tomorrow I'll try the radioshack antenna and let you know how it turns out..My landlord might freak but at least I'll have and idea about my range. The RCA up there is doing a hell of a job but I NEED WGN AND AT LEAST MILWAUKEE CBS...big sports fans here..We do get nbc, abc, fox and all the rest from chicago very well but I won't rest untill I get cbs and wgn clear. Thanks guys and I'll lwt you know the results.

On the tv in my 3rd level apartment, I somtimes pick up Milwaukee CBS. I am using the Philips Silver Sensor antenna and the standard coax. cable that came with the antenna. What kind of cable upgrade do I need to make the most out of this signal? or do I need an amplifier? Thanks

On the tv in my 3rd level apartment, I somtimes pick up Milwaukee CBS. I am using the Philips Silver Sensor antenna and the standard coax. cable that came with the antenna. What kind of cable upgrade do I need to make the most out of this signal? or do I need an amplifier? Thanks


Hello YNG,

Where are you located at (what city)? That would help us. Thanks!

Wow - another interesting night for reception. Milwaukee's locking here in the NW burbs but half the Chicago digitals are getting hammered... Also getting lots of reception blips on some of the other normally vacant frequencies, just underneath locking strength... Hopefully, those of you with better positioning are having a good tropo night!

Unfortunately since so many people are willing to pay extra money for the "wonderful" hi-def pictures that cable and satellite provide, I don't think a lot of people would want to put up an antenna. I think the networks should do a better job of promoting the fact that hi-def is free, over that air, and much better than anything you'll get from a cable company.

My radioshack antenna did the trick...got the WGN and milwaukee cbs...Analogs all went to hell but who cares...thanks for the help guys. Now when will the digitals start broadcasting more in hd?

On the tv in my 3rd level apartment, I somtimes pick up Milwaukee CBS. I am using the Philips Silver Sensor antenna and the standard coax. cable that came with the antenna. What kind of cable upgrade do I need to make the most out of this signal? or do I need an amplifier? Thanks

I am located on the Northside of Chicago, ZipCode 60640.

My radioshack antenna did the trick...got the WGN and milwaukee cbs...Analogs all went to hell but who cares...thanks for the help guys. Now when will the digitals start broadcasting more in hd?Now you can watch the Brewers' games on 58.2 on the weekends, and see them, along with the Cubs, blow their lead to the Cards (who just got Mulder back) ;):D.

Unfortunately since so many people are willing to pay extra money for the "wonderful" hi-def pictures that cable and satellite provide, I don't think a lot of people would want to put up an antenna. I think the networks should do a better job of promoting the fact that hi-def is free, over that air, and much better than anything you'll get from a cable company.

My impression that the High Def locals are passed unchanged through Comcast?

Speaking of reception in the past day or so, is anyone else having any difficulty with the locals? Half the digitals are still getting hammered at my location in the NW burbs, and the others are down in signal strength by 10%.

I am located on the Northside of Chicago, ZipCode 60640.

OK. More than likely, that reception has been caused by a temperature inversion, which has been bringing Milwaukee and Madison signals to the area.
I don't know how high your antenna is off the ground, but my suggestion is wait until we turn cooler next week, then see if you still get it. If you do, then I'd recommend a ChannelMaster 7777 preamplifier...but then you'd overload your Chicago locals, more than likely.

Speaking of bringing in distant stations, the Chicago digitals are being hammered by the Madison stations coming in, all of theirs are on the same channels as the Chicago digitals. Madison's analogs are on 3, 15, 21, 27, 47, and 57. Their digitals are on 11, 19, 20, 26, 32 and 50. So, you can see a lot of them interfere with us when the conditions are right, like they have been.

Ourmuse, congrats...but again, with the change in weather next week to cooler, see if it hurts your reception. If so, you'll need a preamp.

Bellbm---they won't promote it, because eventually in the next few years, they will get a $.25 fee or better from each cable subscriber (as they do from satellite now).

Swalve---they pass through with no compression. However, it does go through a couple of decoders and encoders on the way to you, so the end result is an additional 3-5 second delay, and a slight loss of resolution as the encoding/decoding process isn't perfect.

Thanks for the reply Sebenste. Running a preamp won't ruin my tv will it? I just wont be able to get the local stations, because the signal is too powerful. If thats the case I might just have to unhook when I'm not watching CBS Milwaukee.

Thanks for the insight, Gilbert. It really helps me put it into perspective.

I kind of figured that something else must have been coming in from somewhere, but I had no idea that Madison was the main culprit. (My first thought was preamp malfunction.) Right now I can't lock watchable digital signals on WLS (52), WYCC (21), WCPX (43), and WPWR (51). Others like WMAQ, WCIU, and even WFLD are experiencing break-up tonight. I normally have 90% lock on all of those stations, so this is quite frustrating since I haven't been able to get a great signal since yesterday. Hopefully, all the locals return to what they should be once the cooldown occurs...

Now you can watch the Brewers' games on 58.2 on the weekends, and see them, along with the Cubs, blow their lead to the Cards (who just got Mulder back) ;):D.


I'm a White Sox fan! :cool:

So you think it might be the heat that's helping me...God I hope not. I bought a 4300 joules surge protector...you think that on top of a grounding block to the antenna will be good enough to secure my electronics?

I have another question...When the transition takes place, is there any guarantee that it will always be free like it has been forever?

Thanks for the reply Sebenste. Running a preamp won't ruin my tv will it? I just wont be able to get the local stations, because the signal is too powerful. If thats the case I might just have to unhook when I'm not watching CBS Milwaukee.

No, unless you're a few miles from the stations..and running a high-powered preamp. Then you can cause damage, but otherwise you're fine. No problems from Kenosha, as the one station there won't be tuned into, I'm guessing. Unless you like to watch Shop At Home 24 hours a day. :D

Thanks for the insight, Gilbert. It really helps me put it into perspective.

I kind of figured that something else must have been coming in from somewhere, but I had no idea that Madison was the main culprit. (My first thought was preamp malfunction.) Right now I can't lock watchable digital signals on WLS (52), WYCC (21), WCPX (43), and WPWR (51). Others like WMAQ, WCIU, and even WFLD are experiencing break-up tonight. I normally have 90% lock on all of those stations, so this is quite frustrating since I haven't been able to get a great signal since yesterday. Hopefully, all the locals return to what they should be once the cooldown occurs...

Long: WLS gets interference from the analog TBN northwest of Milwaukee. When I can't get WLS, I can turn my antenna north, turn on my analog tuner to channel 52 and there they are. WCPX, not sure what the issue is there. WMAQ may be getting interference from WHOI-19 from Peoria, and WFLD may be getting interference from WMBD-31 from Peoria as well. Now you know why I can't wait for analog shutdown...a lot of reception problems will be solved. And we'll be getting a lot more Madison TV, I reckon. I can get blips of WHA-DT 20 from Madison, but I get too much interference from analog WYCC-TV 20 from Chicago to lock it by day. But someone out in Rochelle, with WYCC's signal blocked by a ridge, can easily lock it, 85 miles away.


Muse,

> I'm a White Sox fan!

As a Cubs fan, I still like you anyway. :D

>I have another question...When the trasition takes place, is there any >garuantee that it will always be free like it have forever?

Yes, as long as stations broadcast over-the-air. The FCC rules say that the primary channel (anything ending in -1) must be free. No HD requirement, could be 4:3, but it must be free. However, subchannels could be encrypted with subscription TV. That used to be the case in Dallas/Fort Worth and a few other markets when an over-the-air pay TV service briefly made a small mark on the scene. It went bankrupt some time ago.

As a Cubs fan, I still like you anyway. :D

.[/QUOTE]

no reason we can't along! ;)

One last thing...still wondering why the analogs went to crap if it started getting all the digitals? Not that I care about the analogs anymore but it just seems weird..

I'm a White Sox fan! :cool:Thank God there are others here! I feel like the odd man out sometimes.

Hope you enjoyed the comment then. :)

As a Cubs fan, I still like you anyway. :D
no reason we can't along! ;)


LOL! :D


One last thing...still wondering why the analogs went to crap if it started getting all the digitals? Not that I care about the analogs anymore but it just seems weird..

That is a bit odd, but here's what I hope is a good explanation: weak reception trumps good reception with multipath. You likely had "ghosts" with your indoor antenna on analog, at least to some degree; the best 6th gen tuners handle that well and 5th gen tuners do a very good job as well. But, there's a breaking point, where the tuner cannot figure out what reflected signal it should decode. And, if the reception isn't constant, the strongest reflected signal one moment may become weak the next moment.

But outside, you have no multipath. You do have weaker reception, but 5th and 6th gen tuners can handle that well-especially 6th gen, but 5th gen tuners pick up stations very decently. So it's far more tolerant of weak signals than it is multipath, which also explains how a third floor apartment can get
Milwaukee with a small antenna from the north side of Chicago.

And Ramm, you better hope Ozzie starts getting mad again and whips your boys back in line!

WCPX, not sure what the issue is there.Could it be 43 from Waukesha (HSN) or 43.1 from Mayville (TBN)?

(And Ozzie will probably be gone next year. If not before the start of the season, then he should be sometime during it - due to all that bad karma he picked up earlier this year.)

Thank God there are others here! I feel like the odd man out sometimes.
Hope you enjoyed the comment then. :)



I did...ya I was at the at all the '05 home playoff games, world series (we were on the fundamentals deck when konerko hit the slammy...freaking amazing!) and this years burhle no hitter to name some of the highlights of seen at that fantastic park...my gf is a Cub fan so it's good to have hd for both... I'll watch any baseball game pretty much if it's in hd..looks so damn good!

and sebenste thanks for the help..I'll keep you guys updated if there's any issues with my new setup in the coming weeks..

I'll watch any baseball game pretty much if it's in hd..looks so damn good!Same here, basically.

I've been watching the HD Cub games myself the last few days on WGN-DT. Of course, I'm rooting against them with all my heart and soul (which hasn't been all that easy to do, because I absolutely hate the Dodgers - even moreso than the Cubs. In fact, I've never been much of an N.L. fan in general at all, although I've always been a pretty big Reds fan going back to their "Big Red Machine" days and the '75 World Series, which was by far the best one ever in my lifetime).

I must say though, that they really need to improve upon that constant macroblocking during fast movements. Even the Sox' games show it more on 'GN than they do on WCIU-DT, but for some reason, it's noticably worse on the Cub games.

Could it be 43 from Waukesha (HSN) or 43.1 from Mayville (TBN)?

Oh yeah, forgot about those, thanks. Yes, it very well could be. Double whammy!

(And Ozzie will probably be gone next year. If not before the start of the season, then he should be sometime during it - due to all that bad karma he picked up earlier this year.)

Yeah, I don't know what happened there. Sure, teams have slumps after World Series for a time, but this was a total free fall to the cellar, and fast. I can't explain it.

I must say though, that they really need to improve upon that constant macroblocking during fast movements. Even the Sox' games show it more 'GN than they do on WCIU-DT, but for some reason, it's noticably worse on the Cub games.
That's because we hit the ball harder and faster, so the encoders can't keep up! :D

I am guessing that the fiber feed from Wrigley isn't as good as the microwave feed from the Cell. There's a big brouhaha over on the HD programming board
about NBC HD being inferior to the other networks. It's clearly the inferior backhaul (transmission) feed from the sports venues to the network causing the problem. More bandwidth, less macroblocking. And with encoders costing in the 5 figures and WGN on the auction block, don't expect them to upgrade it anytime soon.

Oh yeah, forgot about those, thanks. Yes, it very well could be. Double whammy!


Yeah, I don't know what happened there. Sure, teams have slumps after World Series for a time, but this was a total free fall to the cellar, and fast. I can't explain it.


That's because we hit the ball harder and faster, so the encoders can't keep up! :D

I am guessing that the fiber feed from Wrigley isn't as good as the microwave feed from the Cell. There's a big brouhaha over on the HD programming board
about NBC HD being inferior to the other networks. It's clearly the inferior backhaul (transmission) feed from the sports venues to the network causing the problem. More bandwidth, less macroblocking. And with encoders costing in the 5 figures and WGN on the auction block, don't expect them to upgrade it anytime soon.

We take the same feeds as WGN. Both fields have fiber. Both I believe have microwave backup as well. It also has a lot to do with the encoders.

My radioshack antenna did the trick...got the WGN and milwaukee cbs...Analogs all went to hell but who cares...thanks for the help guys. Now when will the digitals start broadcasting more in hd?


That good that you could use the RS antenna. I wouldn't worry about analog the digital just spoil you after you watch the digital after awhile, even the SD one and then you never want to go back to analog. The SD which is same format as analog but in digital picture and much clearer and cleaner.

Gilbert would be correct on siginal problem and it would go away when analog shut down in 2-09. If you sill have problem getting WGN-DT you could try the homebuilt DB 2 or get Channel Master 4220 with a pre-amp and point that to Chicago and get a A/B coax switch Radio Shack has a remote A/B switch.

-Willie

Well, I just received my OnAir GT tuner for my computer today and have to say I'm quite pleased. The main reason I got it was to watch Bears games in HD and so far, I seem to be getting Fox in pretty well (most of the games will be broadcast on this channel) considering I'm only using the antenna that came with the tuner.

Anyway, the best consistent signal strength I could get hovered around 21-24 dB throughout the game. I think I read the ideal strength is 30+ so I still have a little ways to go to make sure I can record the game without any stutters, jerkiness, etc. I believe I still have an antenna in the attic but it hasn't been used in years and I'm not sure if I'll even be able to run a cable down to my room (or if it even has a cable still attached to it). In case I can't, does anyone have any recommendations on a good indoor antenna that I can pick up at a store before the game (Radio Shack, Best Buy, etc)? Here's the specifics:

I live in a ranch house at the bottom of a slight hill in a suburb (Schaumburg) with lots of trees over 30 feet around me. Here's what antennaweb shows for my address:

http://www.xcelluploader.com//files/21/Miscellaneous/screenshot.jpg

Here's where the room is located (red dot):

http://www.xcelluploader.com//files/21/Miscellaneous/House.jpg

Thanks in advance for any tips/suggestions.

Same here, basically.

I've been watching the HD Cub games myself the last few days on WGN-DT. Of course, I'm rooting against them with all my heart and soul (which hasn't been all that easy to do, because I absolutely hate the Dodgers - even moreso than the Cubs. In fact, I've never been much of an N.L. fan in general at all, although I've always been a pretty big Reds fan going back to their "Big Red Machine" days and the '75 World Series, which was by far the best one ever in my lifetime).

I must say though, that they really need to improve upon that constant macroblocking during fast movements. Even the Sox' games show it more on 'GN than they do on WCIU-DT, but for some reason, it's noticably worse on the Cub games.
Yeah, WGN HD sucks for baseball games. The Cubs games on it are terrible. If the camera is focusing on one thing, like showing the pitch to home plate its fine, but when the camera is moving then you can totally notice the macro blocking and its extremely annoying. On CSN HD you don't notice this at all.

Yeah, WGN HD sucks for baseball games. The Cubs games on it are terrible. If the camera is focusing on one thing, like showing the pitch to home plate its fine, but when the camera is moving then you can totally notice the macro blocking and its extremely annoying. On CSN HD you don't notice this at all.
It's all in the encoding. :D CSN HD is not stricken by the 19.39mb that us OTA stations are. I believe they have up to 45mb but don't quote me on that.:D

Well, I just received my OnAir GT tuner for my computer today and have to say I'm quite pleased. The main reason I got it was to watch Bears games in HD and so far, I seem to be getting Fox in pretty well (most of the games will be broadcast on this channel) considering I'm only using the antenna that came with the tuner.

Anyway, the best consistent signal strength I could get hovered around 21-24 dB throughout the game. I think I read the ideal strength is 30+ so I still have a little ways to go to make sure I can record the game without any stutters, jerkiness, etc. I believe I still have an antenna in the attic but it hasn't been used in years and I'm not sure if I'll even be able to run a cable down to my room (or if it even has a cable still attached to it). In case I can't, does anyone have any recommendations on a good indoor antenna that I can pick up at a store before the game (Radio Shack, Best Buy, etc)?

Thanks in advance for any tips/suggestions.

Hello Xee,

Welcome to the forum...and nice, nice way of showing us where you are and a great description of what you have and what you're trying to do. Way thumbs up for that!

IMO, your first job is to find out where that attic antenna goes to. If it's still hooked up, then it more than likely goes to an outlet somewhere. Find out where; it should give you superior reception of any of the "indoor" antennas.
Because it has been sheltered from the elements, it should work fine; indoors, those things can last, I'm estimating for 50+ years using good RG-6 cable. Second, as long as you have a signal to noise above 20:1, you'll be fine on most tuners. 30:1 is great, but out there, probably not achievable except with an outdoor antenna.

If the attic antenna doesn't work out, is there a specific room you want to watch it from? The "Silver Sensor" UHF antenna does a good job for what it is designed to do: sit on a TV top or shelf and get stations. Gain is significant, even though the antenna is small. Beyond that, the antenna you got with your OnAirGT will do about as good as the rest of them, believe it or not.

The only other thing I could suggest is a bit weird, but it would work: try putting a preamplifier, such as the Winegard AP-2870:

http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/ap2870.htm

But that would be a pain to set up. I suggest you first watch the station, keeping it on in the background, and listen for breakups; if none, then do nothing. The OnAirGT has very good sensitivity, and as you know, the VHF/UHF dipole combo that it comes with works amazingly well with the unit.

Thanks to all the posters in this thread for the great info.

FYI: Reception in the city seems great.

I'm in the 6000 block of North Winthrop Ave in the Edgewater neighborhood of Chicago (zip 60660). Using the (amplified) Terk TV-3 I receive WMAQ, WLS, WGN, WTTW, WFDL, WCPX, and WPWR very well. WGN always requires the amplifier, the other stations are usually stable without it. WBBM is tricky; with maximum amplification it is sometimes fairly stable.

Interestingly, my reception of WBBM seems to improve when I turn on my audio receiver (located under the television). Anyone want to take a guess as to why that would be so?

All-in-all, this is a fabulous alternative to paying for (unreliable) cable service. I'm on the 5th floor of my apartment building, without a line-of-sight to either Sears or Hancock, with tall buildings near me, but with 100 yards or so of open space outside my windows. Does anyone think it would be worth it to experiment with different antennae? Any recommendations?

Thanks to all the posters in this thread for the great info.

FYI: Reception in the city seems great.

I'm in the 6000 block of North Winthrop Ave in the Edgewater neighborhood of Chicago (zip 60660). Using the (amplified) Terk TV-3 I receive WMAQ, WLS, WGN, WTTW, WFDL, WCPX, and WPWR very well. WGN always requires the amplifier, the other stations are usually stable without it. WBBM is tricky; with maximum amplification it is sometimes fairly stable.

Interestingly, my reception of WBBM seems to improve when I turn on my audio receiver (located under the television). Anyone want to take a guess as to why that would be so?

All-in-all, this is a fabulous alternative to paying for (unreliable) cable service. I'm on the 5th floor of my apartment building, without a line-of-sight to either Sears or Hancock, with tall buildings near me, but with 100 yards or so of open space outside my windows. Does anyone think it would be worth it to experiment with different antennae? Any recommendations?

Hi Carver,

It took me a moment to figure out WFDL=WFLD. :) Glad you can get that, and most of the others!

As for WBBM, it's entirely possible that signal somehow gets reflected off the radio if it's nearby, and gets blocked when turned on. Otherwise, you got me.
It's WBBM...it's always a guessing game whether or not you'll get it, and why.

As for experimenting...try the ones at Radio Shack, not the Terk models. Generally, Terk is inferior to other brands. A Zenith Silver Sensor would let you get most stations, but then you'd lose WBBM. This may work:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2253765

If you have the bucks, give it a try.

This may work:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2253765

If you have the bucks, give it a try.Walmart sells what looks to be the same thing in their stores under the Philips name for 10 bucks cheaper, if you want to try that one first.

This may work:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2253765

If you have the bucks, give it a try.


Lowes also carry them as what Ramm said above at Wal-Mart for $39.99 at both places. It is Phillips Mant 940. I have heard good feed back on them but the Noise is at 4.0 and not so good for VHF-lo. I guess with that try it if don't work take it back for money back.

-Willie

Gilbert,

Since you're the resident meteorologist on this group, I just thought I'd ask about this. What I thought was simple tropo has been affecting me for about a week now. I thought it would pass once the coolfront went through, but as of last night I still received watchable Milwaukee stations, at the apparent expense of the Chicago locals..

The digital channels that are still giving me trouble:
21 WYCC
27 WCIU
36 WJYS
43 WCPX - also indicated here as in-line for SE WI interference
51 WPWR
52 WLS - You mentioned analog TBN out of SE WI on this one, but I couldn't pull in anything but static on the old boob-tube tuner.
53 WGBO

I don't know what's killing 51 WPWR and 53 WGBO but I suppose that whatever's the culprit is hitting the whole low-50's range.

Up until several days ago, both 21 WYCC and 27 WCIU both were a seemingly undefeatable 90%+ lock for me even in the worst thunderstorms and both of which you indicate are directly in-line for Madison interference.

You had mentioned WJYS being severely curtailed to the north due to analog WMVS from Milwaukee. Last night, WMVS DT 35 was plowing in at 70-80% steady, so their analog counterpart must have been killing WJYS 36 from Chicago.

Of the other Milwaukee digitals, as of last night I was also able to get watchable locks on 25, 28, and 33. 34 and 46 came in just-under. My antenna faces SE from Arlington Heights, and while I might expect some back-end effect from NW toward Madison, I'm still at a loss as to how Milwaukee made it down this far for a week now since I'm not even properly aimed straight north to receive it.

Does something in the atmosphere still have yet to stabilize, and is 'normal' reception still around the corner? I've gotten some sporadic Milwaukee reception before, but it usually died off within hours, and my Chicago locals haven't been stymied this badly for at least that I can recall. (Of course if this is how it's going to lock-in going forward, then I'm going to have to get something with a greater front to back ratio and perhaps sink some money into that Winegard 7084 I've been thinking about, complete with its ginormous 10-foot box...)

Any additional thoughts you might have would be wonderfully appreciated.

Thanks again

Hello Long,

Gilbert,

Since you're the resident meteorologist on this group, I just thought I'd ask about this. What I thought was simple tropo has been affecting me for about a week now. I thought it would pass once the coolfront went through, but as of last night I still received watchable Milwaukee stations, at the apparent expense of the Chicago locals..

The digital channels that are still giving me trouble:
21 WYCC
27 WCIU
36 WJYS
43 WCPX - also indicated here as in-line for SE WI interference
51 WPWR
52 WLS - You mentioned analog TBN out of SE WI on this one, but I couldn't pull in anything but static on the old boob-tube tuner.
53 WGBO

I don't know what's killing 51 WPWR and 53 WGBO but I suppose that whatever's the culprit is hitting the whole low-50's range.

The front has passed, BUT a couple of things are going on. The front stalled in central Illinois, and warm air aloft is trying to push back north. Thus, the tropo continues. I thought the fornt would get far enough south to keep it from happening, but that isn't the case. There's an analog 51 in Rockford
and a 53 in Michigan that's hurting you. Last night, at a friend's house in Elburn who I helped do an antenna install for, he was getting channel 4 from Detroit on tropo, and some UHF stations from Michigan were coming in as well.
He was also locking channel 8 from the Quad Cities off the back side of his VU-190 Radio Shack antenna! Milwaukee was booming in, too.

Up until several days ago, both 21 WYCC and 27 WCIU both were a seemingly undefeatable 90%+ lock for me even in the worst thunderstorms and both of which you indicate are directly in-line for Madison interference.

You had mentioned WJYS being severely curtailed to the north due to analog WMVS from Milwaukee. Last night, WMVS DT 35 was plowing in at 70-80% steady, so their analog counterpart must have been killing WJYS 36 from Chicago.
Ding ding ding ding ding! Correct on all. Madison was coming in too.

Of the other Milwaukee digitals, as of last night I was also able to get watchable locks on 25, 28, and 33. 34 and 46 came in just-under. My antenna faces SE from Arlington Heights, and while I might expect some back-end effect from NW toward Madison, I'm still at a loss as to how Milwaukee made it down this far for a week now since I'm not even properly aimed straight north to receive it.
Last night was a very good tropo night. I know people keep saying "hey, the tropo is good tonight", but I have seen good, and when you pluck stations from Ohio and southeast Michigan, that's a truly good night. South Bend and Milwaukee locks are a dime a dozen in the spring-fall. But when you get a stationary front to your south, all sorts of wild reception can occur that takes it to a whole other level....to the point where even if the antenna is pointed the wrong way, you still get a decent signal.

You can now also see why I want analog to shut off. If it was, you'd have no problem with Chicago, because the Madison/Milwaukee/Rockford analogs wouldn't have interfered with your Chicago reception.

Does something in the atmosphere still have yet to stabilize, and is 'normal' reception still around the corner? I've gotten some sporadic Milwaukee reception before, but it usually died off within hours, and my Chicago locals haven't been stymied this badly for at least that I can recall. (Of course if this is how it's going to lock-in going forward, then I'm going to have to get something with a greater front to back ratio and perhaps sink some money into that Winegard 7084 I've been thinking about, complete with its ginormous 10-foot box...)

This is why, when I do antenna installs or recommend antennas to others in the suburban/rural areas, I recommend antenna sizes 3 sizes bigger than recommended. When the FCC allocates channels, power and antenna height, tropo has no influence on those decisions whatsoever. In the FCC's eyes, they don't think tropo/"E-skip" happens significantly. It's those times when you need to have that larger antenna to get a stronger signal that overwhelms the tropo, and/or keeps the other unwanted signals from coming in. To those who poo-poo that thought, look at any rural or even Comcast tower that has antennas on it. The ones that Comcast uses to pick up the Chicago HD's
(yes, those are received OTA to a good part sans WBBM) are indeed 3 times larger than needed, and within 5 miles of Sears! They probably have to lower the signal using an attenuator, but at least they know that if for some reason, they go to low power...they'll still get signal. When choosing an antenna, always choose for a low-power or tropo situation, and then you'll be fine. In an apartment, you generally can't do that. And even I can't do it to the extent I want for the Chicago stations, because I am so far away from the transmitters. But for Rockford, it's great...and when WIFR-DT Rockford went to low power/low transmitter height several years ago after a tower collapse, the large antenna system easily beat Comcast's for reception...and they have a 400' tower!


Any additional thoughts you might have would be wonderfully appreciated.

Thanks again

The Winegard 7084...do it. What we're seeing now with tropo is normal this time of year. Best tropo is spring/fall, *usually*, but you can and do get doozies in the summer, and you get mild tropo throughout the summer nearly continuously.

Thanks again for the wisdom, Gilbert. I guess the situation could still be resolved by 'waiting it out' somewhat longer until nature manages to resolve itself. But the longer this takes to happen, a bigger re-install with the Winegard looks more and more tempting... and then maybe, just maybe, I'll finally run out of questions to ask.

Regards

I was receiving WZZM-DT from Grand Rapids last evening, at about 70%.

I was also getting Quad Cities briefly. But that happens occasionally. With 'ZZM, there are a lot of trees in the way.

The only time I got WZZM before was with my indoor antenna a couple of years back, when I was first experimenting with reception at this same time of year (Gilbert probably remembers that one).

I have to say that they've got a very colorful, attractive weather channel. I like the looks of it much better than any of the ones closer in, which all look similar.

Thanks again for the wisdom, Gilbert. I guess the situation could still be resolved by 'waiting it out' somewhat longer until nature manages to resolve itself. But the longer this takes to happen, a bigger re-install with the Winegard looks more and more tempting... and then maybe, just maybe, I'll finally run out of questions to ask.

Regards

Do it! I've been telling Ramm to do it forever, but those lazy Sox fans... :eek: :D ;)

Seriously though, it would solve almost all of your reception problems, and then you can also have fun "DX" like Ramm and I have been seeing (and you to a lesser extent). It amazes me that I can watch a high-def TV station with a perfect signal lock, even for several hours, with my setup. Watching WSBT-DT 22.1's newscast makes me feel I'm sitting in South Bend, behind the cameras, watching on a studio monitor.

I really want Ramm to do this as well, not only so he can lock WBBM continuously, but the DX he can get up in Crystal Lake on the elevated part of town he is on should result in nothing short of astonishing DX with a good antenna this time of year. Me being low near a river valley hurts me considerably, but a few years ago I successfully got the PBS station from Erie, PA, on tropo during a calm evening. I was surprised!

Sorry for continuing here, but the best analog tropo I ever saw was growing up in my parents' house in Calumet City, southeast suburb right near the Indiana state line with a large VHF-UHF separate antennas pointed north-northwest. One early Sunday morning I got the Philadelphia, PA stations like locals with top-of-the-hour ID's as well. Every channel had a station on it, and the dial was full of surprises. Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Indiana, I think I even got WHAS from Louisville, IIRC. Big high pressure in the fall just sat on us and gave the entire eastern U.S. a clear morning with a humongous temperature inversion that covered thousands of square miles. Literally, the effective transmitter height was 15,000+ feet that morning. This coming weekend, there's a chance of that happening again.

FInally, I agree...WZZM-DT has an excellent weather channel, and I like it as much as NBC Weather Plus. One of the Quad Cities stations does something similar, and it is very nice, too. ABC-7 should just drop Accu-Weather and show the radar continuously like they used to, or do what WZZM does. It would rock the house!

I was getting a few of the analogs from Madison fairly well last night, but I've still yet to ever get any of their digitals.

For some reason, that market has totally escaped me.

Maybe with the better antenna, like you say.

I was getting WSBT-DT last night, and out of all the distant markets, I get that one channel most often - at least once a week I'd say - which is nice, because it gives me yet another CBS station to choose from. And believe it or not, I seem to get it more regularly with my indoor antenna!

I wish I could get WYIN-DT from that direction as well. I've just ever gotten fleeting glimpses of it. Probably the lower power at work there.

I was receiving WZZM-DT from Grand Rapids last evening, at about 70%.

I was also getting Quad Cities briefly. But that happens occasionally. With 'ZZM, there are a lot of trees in the way.

The only time I got WZZM before was with my indoor antenna a couple of years back, when I was first experimenting with reception at this same time of year (Gilbert probably remembers that one).

I have to say that they've got a very colorful, attractive weather channel. I like the looks of it much better than any of the ones closer in, which all look similar.


I did get WZZM awhile back and I was impress with the WZZM 13-2 weather
channel even better than WLS and WIFR weather channel.

Which antenna were you using ? I got WZZM with my HB DB-2 and even got the Quad-City 8 WQAD-HD, WQAD-WX and WBQD-LP the same night as WZZM but got it from backside of the antenna. I even got Wausaw WAOW-DT Channel 9.

Gilbert,

I have a question on your attic setup I know you have several antena in the attic and hook up to A/B switch did you use CM pre-amp on each one antenna and did you use 1 power supply to feed both pre-amp or use power supply for each units. I see that CM 7775,7777 & 7778 use the same power supply.

Antenna #1 ----- CM 7777 PA ------A/B switch (a side) ------- CM P/S---TV
Antenna #2------ CM 7778 PA ------A/B switch (b side)--------

or

Antenna #1-----CM 7777 PA-----CM P/S ----- A/B switch (a) -------TV
Antenna #2-----CM 7778 PA-----CM P/S ----- A/B switch (b)


-Willie

Which antenna were you using ? I got WZZM with my HB DB-2 and even got the Quad-City 8 WQAD-HD, WQAD-WX and WBQD-LP the same night as WZZM but got it from backside of the antenna. I even got Wausaw WAOW-DT Channel 9.Last night I was getting WZZM with the outdoor U-75R. The time before I was using the Radio Shack 15-1880 (which, in my experience, along with the Silver Sensor, are two of the best, set-top indoor antennas ever made).

With the U-75R I use the CM 7777 preamp, and the RS one has a built-in 24 db amp.

I was also getting all kinds of screwy reception from channels from the sides of the U-75R last night.

Last night I was getting WZZM with the outdoor U-75R. The time before I was using the Radio Shack 15-1880 (which, in my experience, along with the Silver Sensor, are two of the best, set-top indoor antennas ever made).

With the U-75R I use the CM 7777 preamp, and the RS one has a built-in 24 db amp.

I was also getting all kinds of screwy reception from channels from the sides of the U-75R last night.


Just wonder what you will get if had Antenna Direct XG-91 antenna up there instead of U-75R. The VHF-hi / UHF antenna Ch 7-69 at other posting that you said it look like RS U-75R it made by Antenna Craft model #HBU22 and you can get it from direct from AC for $34.99 . Just 70" long and it only weight at 5.6 #. http://www.antennacraft.net/HBU22.htm and the specs http://www.antennacraft.net/pdfs/HBU22.pdf


-Willie

Wow!! Cool!

I just pointed the U-75R towards Chicago, and I'm getting WSBT-DT, WNIT-DT, WNDU-DT and WSJV-DT from South Bend!

I wish it was always like this!

Yeah, I was considering that model, but I doubt if the gain will be any better than the U-75R - it'll just get me those hi-VHF channels from Milwaukee. But I still wouldn't mind trying it, just to see how good it actually is. When WBBM-DT switches, I'm pretty sure it will do a good enough job for that.

The XG-91 would be nice for sure, but it's kind of huge for me to wrestle with alone right now. I don't relish getting up on the roof alone with that thing. At least with the lighter, smaller antennas I can experiment with them without actually having to go up there - I just have to get on the ladder up to the peak and can still stand on it. If I go up there, I at least like to have someone down below to help break my fall!

Which antenna were you using ? I got WZZM with my HB DB-2 and even got the Quad-City 8 WQAD-HD, WQAD-WX and WBQD-LP the same night as WZZM but got it from backside of the antenna. I even got Wausaw WAOW-DT Channel 9.

Nice catch of Wausau! I've gotten their stations including WAOW a few times last year. I used the ChannelMaster 4228 to do that. Doggone, I should have rotated the antenna northwest. I was getting a weak channel 14 from Green Bay, WI at the time while pointed at Chicago, and that should have tipped me off.


Gilbert,

I have a question on your attic setup I know you have several antena in the attic and hook up to A/B switch did you use CM pre-amp on each one antenna and did you use 1 power supply to feed both pre-amp or use power supply for each units. I see that CM 7775,7777 & 7778 use the same power supply.

Antenna #1 ----- CM 7777 PA ------A/B switch (a side) ------- CM P/S---TV
Antenna #2------ CM 7778 PA ------A/B switch (b side)--------

or

Antenna #1-----CM 7777 PA-----CM P/S ----- A/B switch (a) -------TV
Antenna #2-----CM 7778 PA-----CM P/S ----- A/B switch (b)


-Willie

I have 3 antenna system setups:

A) ChannelMaster 4228 on a ChannelMaster rotor, diplexed with a Winegard (discontinued) monster 13' VHF-only antenna, via a ChannelMaster 7777 preamp. This is "A" on my "ABC" switch.

B) ChannelMaster 4228 #2 to get WLS and WTTW in tropo situations, diplexed with a VU-160 (discontinued) from Radio Shack to get WWTO-DT
in Ottawa, and the possibly soon to sign on WMKB-LD channel 8, which has its transmitter now on the WDEK tower. A friend saw a tower crew hoist the antenna for it up there last week. Oddly enough, much of DeKalb may not get it; its extremely directional east and west, with only 2 watts pointed my way. This is "B" on my "ABC" switch.

C) A VU-90 Radio Shack antenna, hooked up to a Magnavox (IIRC) preamp, a cheapie I picked up at Farm and Fleet that has low noise and does very well.
Hooked up to my cheap stereo, it gets the Chicago analog FM stations decently. This is not hooked up to my ABC switch. I had planned to use it to get another antenna to get channel 8 out of Rochelle, but it decided to come to me.

My TV outlet wall plate is a bit interesting. Instead of the normal one or two connectors, there's 8 of them, and 7 are used! To power all 3 preamps, I had to use a power strip in the basement, up way into the ceiling.

Wow!! Cool!

I just pointed the U-75R towards Chicago, and I'm getting WSBT-DT, WNIT-DT, WNDU-DT and WSJV-DT from South Bend!

I wish it was always like this!

Yeah, I was considering that model, but I doubt if the gain will be any better than the U-75R - it'll just get me those hi-VHF channels from Milwaukee. But I still wouldn't mind trying it, just to see how good it actually is. When WBBM-DT switches, I'm pretty sure it will do a good enough job for that.

The XG-91 would be nice for sure, but it's kind of huge for me to wrestle with alone right now. I don't relish getting up on the roof alone with that thing. At least with the lighter, smaller antennas I can experiment with them without actually having to go up there - I just have to get on the ladder up to the peak and can still stand on it. If I go up there, I at least like to have someone down below to help break my fall!

It's actually not bad to handle---the owner of the company who sells them held it in is left hand, on the roof, posing for an Associated Press photographer...and he didn't seem to be a strong guy. I've heard it is very lightweight. Assembling it is somewhat painful/tedious, though.

Wow!! Cool!

I just pointed the U-75R towards Chicago, and I'm getting WSBT-DT, WNIT-DT, WNDU-DT and WSJV-DT from South Bend!

I wish it was always like this!

Yeah, I was considering that model, but I doubt if the gain will be any better than the U-75R - it'll just get me those hi-VHF channels from Milwaukee. But I still wouldn't mind trying it, just to see how good it actually is. When WBBM-DT switches, I'm pretty sure it will do a good enough job for that.

The XG-91 would be nice for sure, but it's kind of huge for me to wrestle with alone right now. I don't relish getting up on the roof alone with that thing. At least with the lighter, smaller antennas I can experiment with them without actually having to go up there - I just have to get on the ladder up to the peak and can still stand on it. If I go up there, I at least like to have someone down below to help break my fall!


You would be surprise how lightweight the XG-91 is, yes it long at 93" just under 8' with 23" wide and 20" high which is the corner refector end and the beast only weight in at 6.5 lbs and that is under half of the weight of CM 4228 at 16 lbs at about 3.5 square foot. The XG-91 is well balance setup and what nice it has built in tilt bracket so you can tilt up to 10-15? degree. I would love to have this but it too large for my apartment.

To have something to fall on below I guess you will have to hope for allot of snow this winter, it just seam for last decade it really not a winter around here as it was back in before the early 80's can't go snowmobileing anymore around here or even down in your area and almost can't do it in the far northern WI any more and the price on a new snowmobile forget it cheaper to rent one than own one.

-Willie

Well, my first attempt to watch a Bears game in HD wasn't a complete success.

I didn't have the time to check the condition of the antenna in the attic so I just stopped by the 'Shack and bought a $25 indoor antenna that had gotten good reviews online. At the beginning I was extremely hopeful since my signal-to-noise ratio seemed to be hovering at 24-26 dB (was watching the game through a USB tuner on my computer). However, I guess the signal hadn't been as consistent as I thought since I saw 3-5 second intervals like the one below, peppered throughout the game:

http://www.xcelluploader.com//files/21/Miscellaneous%20Posts/Benson.jpg

Is there anything I can due to boost the signal of this indoor-antenna a bit or is my best option still to try to get hooked up to the antenna in the attic?

Noticed your spectacled image...this is what I got a lot when I used the sensor antenna indoors. And this is why I stopped using the sensor - too much multipath trouble to begin with, and being indoors also weakens the signal considerably to the point where you have to adjust the unit differently for each channel. However, this week has not been any better for outdoor reception either, so you're not alone in your frustration. Bellwether stations like WFLD and WMAQ have been problematic for me during the past week in ways that I hadn't seen since I used the set-top antenna.

IMHO, with 24-26 dB, you're probably amplified as much as you ought to be with a set-top antenna. My inclination would be to try the attic unit.

I live in Channahon il 60410. I have a new Sony lcd KDL32S20L1 TV and I put a Winegard 7084 antenna in the attic of my tri level. I get everything except WBBM. I have listed signal strength at the right below. Do you think a preamp will give me a chance of getting WBBM without hurting the other stations ?
Channels 5.1 and 9.1 and 32.1 say they're at 98%. Or does anyone have any other ideas? The cable length is only about 10'

Thanks John


miles signal strength
* green - uhf WPWR-DT 50.1 MNT GARY IN 47° 42.8 51 31db
* lt green uhf WSNS-DT 44.1 TEL CHICAGO IL 47° 42.8 45 27db
* lt green -uhf WCIU-DT 26.1 IND CHICAGO IL 47° 42.8 27 28db
* lt green uhf WTTW-DT 11.1 PBS CHICAGO IL 47° 42.8 47 29db
* red - uhf WGN-DT 9.1 CW CHICAGO IL 47° 42.8 19 31db
* red - uhf WFLD-DT 32.1 FOX CHICAGO IL 47° 42.8 31 31db
* red - uhf WLS-DT 7.1 ABC CHICAGO IL 47° 42.8 52 26db
* red - uhf WXFT-DT 60.1 TFA AURORA IL 47° 42.9 59 18db
* red - uhf WCPX-DT 38.1 ION CHICAGO IL 47° 42.9 43 29db
* red - uhf WMAQ-DT 5.1 NBC CHICAGO IL 47° 42.8 29 30db
* blue - uhf WJYS-DT 62.1 REL HAMMOND IN 47° 42.8 36 27db
* violet - uhf WYIN-DT 56.1 PBS GARY IN 100° 43.2 17 22db
* violet - vhf WBBM-DT 2.1 CBS CHICAGO IL 47° 44.3 3 0db

Noticed your spectacled image...this is what I got a lot when I used the sensor antenna indoors. And this is why I stopped using the sensor - too much multipath trouble to begin with, and being indoors also weakens the signal considerably to the point where you have to adjust the unit differently for each channel. However, this week has not been any better for outdoor reception either, so you're not alone in your frustration. Bellwether stations like WFLD and WMAQ have been problematic for me during the past week in ways that I hadn't seen since I used the set-top antenna.

IMHO, with 24-26 dB, you're probably amplified as much as you ought to be with a set-top antenna. My inclination would be to try the attic unit.

I'm with long. If the antenna I recommended didn't work, there's too much multipath...your attic antenna is now your best option besides your other one, which did work.

I live in Channahon il 60410. I have a new Sony lcd KDL32S20L1 TV and I put a Winegard 7084 antenna in the attic of my tri level. I get everything except WBBM. I have listed signal strength at the right below. Do you think a preamp will give me a chance of getting WBBM without hurting the other stations ?
Channels 5.1 and 9.1 and 32.1 say they're at 98%. Or does anyone have any other ideas? The cable length is only about 10'

Thanks John


miles signal strength
* green - uhf WPWR-DT 50.1 MNT GARY IN 47° 42.8 51 31db
* lt green uhf WSNS-DT 44.1 TEL CHICAGO IL 47° 42.8 45 27db
* lt green -uhf WCIU-DT 26.1 IND CHICAGO IL 47° 42.8 27 28db
* lt green uhf WTTW-DT 11.1 PBS CHICAGO IL 47° 42.8 47 29db
* red - uhf WGN-DT 9.1 CW CHICAGO IL 47° 42.8 19 31db
* red - uhf WFLD-DT 32.1 FOX CHICAGO IL 47° 42.8 31 31db
* red - uhf WLS-DT 7.1 ABC CHICAGO IL 47° 42.8 52 26db
* red - uhf WXFT-DT 60.1 TFA AURORA IL 47° 42.9 59 18db
* red - uhf WCPX-DT 38.1 ION CHICAGO IL 47° 42.9 43 29db
* red - uhf WMAQ-DT 5.1 NBC CHICAGO IL 47° 42.8 29 30db
* blue - uhf WJYS-DT 62.1 REL HAMMOND IN 47° 42.8 36 27db
* violet - uhf WYIN-DT 56.1 PBS GARY IN 100° 43.2 17 22db
* violet - vhf WBBM-DT 2.1 CBS CHICAGO IL 47° 44.3 3 0db

Hey John,

Kudos to you for posting the signal to noise ratios! Very nice. Sadly, here comes some basic math at you...

0 db times any number of amplification is zero. However, conspicuously absent from your list is WGBO-DT 53, and WYCC-DT 21. Did you leave those off by accident?

In any case, your "best" bet---if it is even possible---is to move the antenna closer to an outside wall that is not being blocked or is less blocked by an object, to at least get some semblance of signal from WBBM. And even then, being indoors...getting WBBM from there will be tough. If you can move the antenna and get at least some signal on WBBM (or want to see WYCC-DT or WSNS-DT), then and only then would I go for a Winegard AP-2870:

http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/ap2870.htm

Otherwise, that's probably as good as you will get. Sorry. :(

Thanks Gilbert

I do get WGBO-DT 53 at 23db , and WYCC-DT 21 at 26db I just didn't list them. I'll try moving the antenna around a little. Do you think I'll have a shot
in 2009 of getting cbs and abc when they are both on vhf? I don't get a real good analog signal now on vhf.

Thanks John

Thanks Gilbert, Ramm, and Willie for the recommendations. I'll give the RadioShack/Philips a try.

Sorry about my dyslexia with WFLD.

I apologize in advance for this being long. I live in Aurora near Ogden & Eola. I have a huge Radio Shack antenna, likely the VU-190 XR or whatever was similar to it 8-9 years ago. I purchased it mainly to tune in FM on my stereo.
Now that I have an HDTV and find cable & satellite prices ridiculous, I’ve been using my antenna to pull in those free HD/Digital channels with great success, except, of course, for channel 2.1 WBBM. I have a direct run of RG from the antenna to the tv with no splitters in between. Also, using a compass I have positioned my antenna to the heading recommended by antennaweb.
I know my main problem is that the antenna is in the attic, but my roof is angled/scary enough to keep me off it if at all possible. Without a pre-amp all channels come in at an average of 75% strength, except for 9.1 WGN at 15% (no viewable picture) and 2.1 WBBM at 30-35% (very pixilated and unwatchable). With a pre-amp all stations average about 85-90% strength, with 9.1 WGN boosted to a very watchable 70%. However, 2.1 WBBM stays at a wimpy 30-35%. Sometimes at night it goes to 40% and I can actually watch it, but it still gets drop-outs. I would think getting it to 50-60% would provide constantly viewable images.
The pre-amps I’ve tested are Winegard AP2870, Radio Shack Model: 15-2507, Channel Master 3041DBS, and a Phillips/Magnavox M61112 (from Menards). All have similar specs and produced roughly the same results. I am keeping the Magnavox since it is the cheapest ($25). I originally wanted a Channel Master 7777 but I can’t get one unless I order it online, and if it doesn’t work, returning it is a pain, plus restocking fees, etc….
So on to my questions: Why don’t the pre-amps boost 2.1 WBBM the same way that 9.1 WGN gets a signal increase? I’m obviously getting a pretty good lock on WBBM if I can get 30% in an attic without amplification, but the pre-amps seem to have no affect on boosting the signal. With that being said, is the Channel Master 7777 that much better? Or am I taking a gamble by ordering one? Can anybody offer any other suggestions besides mounting the antenna on the roof, for now?
I appreciate the help,
Matt
P.S. For what it’s worth, I am able to pick up the analog WBBM. Although it’s a little more snowy than I’d like, it is watchable.

I'll let someone else answer that other stuff, but as far as the CM 7777, you can order it from www.crutchfield.com. They are a great company and VERY accomodating about returns.

In fact, that's where I got mine from. The shipping cost was less than all others, so it came to around the same total price. I've done business with them a lot over the years, and I've returned a few things to them with no hassles, at their expense.

Welcome, Mattman!

Make sure that the amplifier works on both VHF and UHF. Some amps need to be switched to handle VHF. Channel 2.1 is the only VHF channel in Chicago, actually on analog channel 3's frequency. Channel 9.1 and all the others are really up in the UHF range because the digital channel numbers are mapped to their real frequencies. 9.1 is aired on analog 19's frequency.

I just thought of something -

If you already haven't tried them, Fry's right down the road from you carries some Channelmaster stuff.

I don't recall seeing the CM 7777 the last couple of times I was there, but it might be worth checking out. They could've just been out of stock.

bakers12, How would one switch the amp to handle VHF? None of the ones I tried had any switches on them. All had specs listing dB increase for VHF, though.

Rammitinski, I bought the Channel Master 3041 from Fryes. They apparantly don't carry the 7777.

Thanks for the replies so far.

I apologize in advance for this being long. I live in Aurora near Ogden & Eola. I have a huge Radio Shack antenna, likely the VU-190 XR or whatever was similar to it 8-9 years ago. I purchased it mainly to tune in FM on my stereo.
Now that I have an HDTV and find cable & satellite prices ridiculous, I’ve been using my antenna to pull in those free HD/Digital channels with great success, except, of course, for channel 2.1 WBBM. I have a direct run of RG from the antenna to the tv with no splitters in between. Also, using a compass I have positioned my antenna to the heading recommended by antennaweb.
I know my main problem is that the antenna is in the attic, but my roof is angled/scary enough to keep me off it if at all possible. Without a pre-amp all channels come in at an average of 75% strength, except for 9.1 WGN at 15% (no viewable picture) and 2.1 WBBM at 30-35% (very pixilated and unwatchable). With a pre-amp all stations average about 85-90% strength, with 9.1 WGN boosted to a very watchable 70%. However, 2.1 WBBM stays at a wimpy 30-35%. Sometimes at night it goes to 40% and I can actually watch it, but it still gets drop-outs. I would think getting it to 50-60% would provide constantly viewable images.
The pre-amps I’ve tested are Winegard AP2870, Radio Shack Model: 15-2507, Channel Master 3041DBS, and a Phillips/Magnavox M61112 (from Menards). All have similar specs and produced roughly the same results. I am keeping the Magnavox since it is the cheapest ($25). I originally wanted a Channel Master 7777 but I can’t get one unless I order it online, and if it doesn’t work, returning it is a pain, plus restocking fees, etc….
So on to my questions: Why don’t the pre-amps boost 2.1 WBBM the same way that 9.1 WGN gets a signal increase? I’m obviously getting a pretty good lock on WBBM if I can get 30% in an attic without amplification, but the pre-amps seem to have no affect on boosting the signal. With that being said, is the Channel Master 7777 that much better? Or am I taking a gamble by ordering one? Can anybody offer any other suggestions besides mounting the antenna on the roof, for now?
I appreciate the help,
Matt
P.S. For what it’s worth, I am able to pick up the analog WBBM. Although it’s a little more snowy than I’d like, it is watchable.

Hey Mattman,

Welcome to the forum!

Any chance you could move the antenna in the attic a bit, say between
two different beams? That *might* help. Otherwise, are you using RG-59 cable going down from the attic? At a minimum, RG-6 should be used,
and preferably quad-shield or tri-shielded Belden cable to eliminate unwanted interference. The snow on analog 2 indicates you could use a little boost on that. The low signal on high-powered WGN indicates multipath causing interference on the low end of the VHF channels. I bet on analog channel 20, you are seeing some "ghosting".

I would try replacing the cable if it isn't RG-6 (making sure all connections are good and tight first), then try moving the antenna to a different portion of the attic and then, if those fail, try a ChannelMaster 7777 preamplifier. Since that is the only antenna you have, there's no need to switch the 7777 into dual-antenna mode.

How would one switch the amp to handle VHF? None of the ones I tried had any switches on them. All had specs listing dB increase for VHF, though.

If it had a way to switch it, the instructions would tell you. Not all of them have it.

Thanks Gilbert

I do get WGBO-DT 53 at 23db , and WYCC-DT 21 at 26db I just didn't list them. I'll try moving the antenna around a little. Do you think I'll have a shot
in 2009 of getting cbs and abc when they are both on vhf? I don't get a real good analog signal now on vhf.

Thanks John

Ah, OK. I think so. They'll be able to boost power after shutdown, so you should be good to go when that happens.

Ah, OK. I think so. They'll be able to boost power after shutdown, so you should be good to go when that happens.


So you're saying the digital channels are getting a power boost when the analogs are gone?

Hi all. I've read through the entire thread, and I'm now looking for some advice.

I live in Vernon Hills, IL, zip 60061, and I'm trying to figure out the best setup for an antenna at my particular location. I took a screen print from Google Earth and attached it to this message. My house is labelled in the upper left, the line goes to the Hancock Tower.

I'm looking to set something up that will be a "set it and forget it" solution, meaning not having to re-orient after a stiff wind, or replace the antenna after only a few years, and I'd like to get WBBM-DT. I'm between 30 and 31 miles from the Hancock Tower, so I'm assuming one of the antennas mentioned in the beginning of this thread, mounted on the roof, is my best bet.

Trouble is, I need something that will ideally be invisible, at least from the front of the house. I initially thought to mount in the attic, but I have a pretty steep roof, and I'm afraid rain and collected snow will severely hurt my chances of getting reliable signal. Is this a valid concern in my case? Is it one of those things that I won't know until I try?

Mounting outdoors, I'd like to mount the antenna towards the back of the house, on or near the chimney, but just high enough to clear the peak of the roof, hopefully staying mostly invisible from ground view down the street. The peak of the roof is about 30' off the ground, so I'm thinking the antenna can be at about 32' or so for the TV signal to clear the peak. My only question about this is there are several houses along the line I have in the picture, where the signal will be coming over. Those houses are about the same height as mine. Do I have to consider signal diffraction creating a dead zone behind those other houses, making me need to raise my antenna even more?

BTW, would a Winegard HD7080P be a good choice? I know it's a bit smaller than the recommended 7082 and 7084, but I might have to put this up myself, as I haven't had much luck finding a professional installer, and I thought the smaller size would be easier to handle during mounting.

Thanks for any advice.

So you're saying the digital channels are getting a power boost when the analogs are gone?

More than likely. The FCC has set base power for VHF channels at about 3.2 kw for new ones, such as WLS and WBBM. But WBBM's engineering study shows they can easily go 4 times that power and not interfere with anyone.

Hi all. I've read through the entire thread, and I'm now looking for some advice.

Welcome to the forum, George!


I live in Vernon Hills, IL. I'm looking to set something up that will be a "set it and forget it" solution, meaning not having to re-orient after a stiff wind, or replace the antenna after only a few years, and I'd like to get WBBM-DT. I'm between 30 and 31 miles from the Hancock Tower, so I'm assuming one of the antennas mentioned in the beginning of this thread, mounted on the roof, is my best bet.

You got it!

Trouble is, I need something that will ideally be invisible, at least from the front of the house. I initially thought to mount in the attic, but I have a pretty steep roof, and I'm afraid rain and collected snow will severely hurt my chances of getting reliable signal. Is this a valid concern in my case? Is it one of those things that I won't know until I try?

Yes, that is most certainly a valid concern. It will hurt the signal by 10%-25%. And, the attic itself kills over 50% of the signal by itself.


Mounting outdoors, I'd like to mount the antenna towards the back of the house, on or near the chimney, but just high enough to clear the peak of the roof, hopefully staying mostly invisible from ground view down the street. The peak of the roof is about 30' off the ground, so I'm thinking the antenna can be at about 32' or so for the TV signal to clear the peak. My only question about this is there are several houses along the line I have in the picture, where the signal will be coming over. Those houses are about the same height as mine. Do I have to consider signal diffraction creating a dead zone behind those other houses, making me need to raise my antenna even more?
Yes, but you are far enough away so that if you can clear the top of your house, you should be OK.

BTW, would a Winegard HD7080P be a good choice? I know it's a bit smaller than the recommended 7082 and 7084, but I might have to put this up myself, as I haven't had much luck finding a professional installer, and I thought the smaller size would be easier to handle during mounting.

Thanks for any advice.

That is true, but remember this: if you want WBBM, you *have* to go big.
And, initially WLS and WBBM will be at fairly low power on 7 and 9 in 2009 sometime, and you want enough "pad" to handle that. Grab a friend, family member, etc to help you out...antenna installs on roofs is *never* a one person job, for safety reasons.

I'd go with the 7084. If you want a no-tweak, no-bicker install, you can't have it both ways (small/convenient with questionable reception vs. large/inconvenient and great reception). When getting WBBM, the adage "if you're going to do it, do it right" more than applies here.

But it is worth it; their picture over-the-air is fantastic.

Hi all. I've read through the entire thread, and I'm now looking for some advice.

I live in Vernon Hills, IL, zip 60061, and I'm trying to figure out the best setup for an antenna at my particular location. I took a screen print from Google Earth and attached it to this message. My house is labelled in the upper left, the line goes to the Hancock Tower.

George, looks like you live in Greggs Landings (just a guess). I used to live in Mundelein out by 176 and 60/83 and was able to pull in everything with an attic antenna, except for WBBM which was hit and miss, but that was before the put up their new antenna and increased the power. If you can go with a roof mount that would be the best but your neighbors might like you if you can try the attic first and then the roof if that doesn't work out.

Mounting outdoors, I'd like to mount the antenna towards the back of the house, on or near the chimney, but just high enough to clear the peak of the roof, hopefully staying mostly invisible from ground view down the street. The peak of the roof is about 30' off the ground, so I'm thinking the antenna can be at about 32' or so for the TV signal to clear the peak. My only question about this is there are several houses along the line I have in the picture, where the signal will be coming over. Those houses are about the same height as mine. Do I have to consider signal diffraction creating a dead zone behind those other houses, making me need to raise my antenna even more?

Yes, but you are far enough away so that if you can clear the top of your house, you should be OK.

OK - That's good to know.

That is true, but remember this: if you want WBBM, you *have* to go big.
And, initially WLS and WBBM will be at fairly low power on 7 and 9 in 2009 sometime, and you want enough "pad" to handle that. Grab a friend, family member, etc to help you out...antenna installs on roofs is *never* a one person job, for safety reasons.

I'd go with the 7084. If you want a no-tweak, no-bicker install, you can't have it both ways (small/convenient with questionable reception vs. large/inconvenient and great reception). When getting WBBM, the adage "if you're going to do it, do it right" more than applies here.

But it is worth it; their picture over-the-air is fantastic.

Yeah, I just had to ask. :-) Thanks.

George, looks like you live in Greggs Landings (just a guess). I used to live in Mundelein out by 176 and 60/83 and was able to pull in everything with an attic antenna, except for WBBM which was hit and miss, but that was before the put up their new antenna and increased the power. If you can go with a roof mount that would be the best but your neighbors might like you if you can try the attic first and then the roof if that doesn't work out.

You're right - I'm in Greggs Landing.

Good to hear you got everything except WBBM with the attic antenna. I'm currently able get all UHF stations with an indoor antenna, works just fine about 90% of the time, anyway. Ch. 20 is iffy most of the time, though.

My attic is kind of weird - I have a support 3 feet or so, that looks like the letter A on it's side, for the length of the attic. I'll have to go up again and look, but I don't think I can get a really big antenna to fit in there. Plus, I'd hate to have to pull it out of there if I can't get WBBM reliably.

You're right - I'm in Greggs Landing.

My attic is kind of weird - I have a support 3 feet or so, that looks like the letter A on it's side, for the length of the attic. I'll have to go up again and look, but I don't think I can get a really big antenna to fit in there. Plus, I'd hate to have to pull it out of there if I can't get WBBM reliably.

I am up in Grayslake 7 miles directly NW of you and have had good luck with two attic mounted Channel Master 4228 UHF antennas paired with two CM 7777 preamps. I also use an older Radio Shack VU-120 for WBBM DT and the VHF analogs. For the same reasons you mentioned, I have preferred not to mount an outdoor antenna, and so far I haven't had to. I get reliable reception of the UHF digital channels, except for tropo days during the summer when channel 52 northwest of Milwaukee bombs out WLS which is also on 52 (I seem to be getting more of this condition recently so it may be time to reposition the antenna). WBBM is good about 60% of the time. On those days it's not, I have a Radio Shack remote switch and go to the 4228 pointed at Milwaukee for CBS affiliate WDJT CH 58 (MPTV CH 36 also has a fantastic picture). You are closer to Chicago so attic mounting should work for you too. The 4228 is fairly easy to mount in a tight attic, so you could give this a try first. But, a large VHF antenna for channel 3 sounds like it may be difficult to mount in a truss structure attic such as yours. I have seen it done though. Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

I am up in Grayslake 7 miles directly NW of you and have had good luck with two attic mounted Channel Master 4228 UHF antennas paired with two CM 7777 preamps. I also use an older Radio Shack VU-120 for WBBM DT and the VHF analogs. For the same reasons you mentioned, I have preferred not to mount an outdoor antenna, and so far I haven't had to. I get reliable reception of the UHF digital channels, except for tropo days during the summer when channel 52 northwest of Milwaukee bombs out WLS which is also on 52 (I seem to be getting more of this condition recently so it may be time to reposition the antenna). WBBM is good about 60% of the time. On those days it's not, I have a Radio Shack remote switch and go to the 4228 pointed at Milwaukee for CBS affiliate WDJT CH 58 (MPTV CH 36 also has a fantastic picture). You are closer to Chicago so attic mounting should work for you too. The 4228 is fairly easy to mount in a tight attic, so you could give this a try first. But, a large VHF antenna for channel 3 sounds like it may be difficult to mount in a truss structure attic such as yours. I have seen it done though. Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

Thanks for the info, veets.

I actually was thinking about trying to get CBS from Milwaukee. How is your reception of it from Grayslake? I'm about 50 miles away according to Google Earth, so I thought it might be even less reliable than trying to get WBBM-DT from Chicago.

Reception of CBS 58 from Milwaukee is nearly flawless from here and really dependable. AntennaWeb says I'm 53.4 miles from the transmitter (vs. 37.8 miles for WBBM). At 1 megawatt ERP, it's easy to get from the northern suburbs, and actually more reliable than some of the Chicago UHF channels. Good thing too since today's Bears game is being carried by 58 and I can't get WBBM today.

I am an OTA viewer in Wheaton 3 with a rooftop antenna on my 2-story house and have upstairs and downstairs HDTVs. To get WBBM at all, and to improve other reception I bought a couple of 15-2507 signal amplifiers from Radio Shack.

The downstairs TV picks up WBBM most of the time, but incredibly the upstairs TV (Samsung tube with built-in tuner), which had previously never needed the amplifier, had begun not receiving WBBM, even with the amplifier that I installed this weekend.

With the shorter coax run, I am surprised at the sudden loss of WBBM upstairs and am especially mystified that the amplifier has not fixed the issue, sine it worked so well downstairs.

Any suggestions?

pbassett, you might be running an RG-59 cable to the upstairs TV, while the lower TV gets a quad-sheilded RG-6 run. RG-59 is more susceptible to random noise leaking into the cable run, which would affect a lock on a VHF-low station like WBBM. Since all preamps create some additional noise, this would exacerbate the problem.

Reception of CBS 58 from Milwaukee is nearly flawless from here and really dependable.It's fairly easy to receive here, too, at around 63 miles.

Can people in the Naperville area pick up Milwaukee stations such as Fox and CBS?

I am an OTA viewer in Wheaton 3 with a rooftop antenna on my 2-story house and have upstairs and downstairs HDTVs. To get WBBM at all, and to improve other reception I bought a couple of 15-2507 signal amplifiers from Radio Shack.

The downstairs TV picks up WBBM most of the time, but incredibly the upstairs TV (Samsung tube with built-in tuner), which had previously never needed the amplifier, had begun not receiving WBBM, even with the amplifier that I installed this weekend.

With the shorter coax run, I am surprised at the sudden loss of WBBM upstairs and am especially mystified that the amplifier has not fixed the issue, sine it worked so well downstairs.

Any suggestions?

Did you add one amplifier to each TV set? Unless you need an amp on the upstairs TV (it was working?), I'd remove it. To me add-on amplifiers are a last resort. Adding a good amplifier on the antenna mast is OK, but Radio Shack amps behind the TV can be asking for trouble.

For what it's worth, I do have add-on R/S amps, but they are for distribution. They make a bad signal worse, however.

Good news, friends!

Tune in to 20.1 (WYCC-DT1). Now, check the resolution.

Next, tune in to 20.2.

Surprise!!!

Hey Ramm,

I can't check WYCC-DT right now. What did they do? I know once they were in their new building, they were going to go HD on 20.2, or at least what they said...

What's going on?

Yeah I notice something changed when I was skimming through sunday. I just shrugged it off thinking it was nothing. Wonder what they have up their sleves. (besides some trick cards.) :eek:

Hey Ramm,

I can't check WYCC-DT right now. What did they do? I know once they were in their new building, they were going to go HD on 20.2, or at least what they said...

What's going on?20.1 is now 1080i, and 20.2 is 480i.

They seem to be simulcasting the old programming on both channels so far.

20.2 has some kind of a pixellation problem right now, though.

I'm seeing a test pattern on 20.3 also.

Oh, Jeez.

Just what we need - another over-compressed, bit-starved, so-called HD PBS station.

Pretty soon I'm gonna hafta start watching everything on my 19" LCD.

I don't know what feed they used for their analog transmission, but last night, it was horrible. It was pixelating all over the place, and the audio was gargley. I thought it was a Comcast issue at first, but I saw the same issue when I used an antenna on a TV to check.

Seems better today.

I'm located in Huntley, IL (zip 60142) about 40 miles NW of Chicago. I'm using a roof-mounted antenna (I believe a Winegard - about 3 years old, not sure of the model but I could find out) with a TruSpec CA30/1000 to boost the signal. We get excellent reception, and no problems with WBBM as many have posted above.

We also get many of the Rockford HD channels - 17-1 and 2, and 39-1. Here's the puzzler. We get analog 13 out of Rockford clear as a bell, but we can't get the HD signal for this channel at all. It's puzzling, and I was just curious why this could be? I've tried reprogramming (We're using a Samsung DTBH260F with an older HD-ready projection set) but we can never pick up any of the 13's.

I honestly can't complain - we have excellent reception of all the other channels & currently receive 30 digital channels. On a clear day, we get an Indiana channel popping up in the channel list too, but it's infrequent (and I can't remember which network it is off the top of my head.)

So... any ideas on why 13 would come in crystal clear on analog and not at all on digital?

Your antenna's not pointed at Rockford. Next up, 13's digital channel actually broadcasts on UHF until 2009 (when it'll go to channel 13), and broadcasts the weakest UHF signal of all the Rockford stations. Your VHF sections are probably stronger/less directional than the UHF sections. Nothing to worry about and no need to replace anything.

Can people in the Naperville area pick up Milwaukee stations such as Fox and CBS?

Hello Matt,

No, it's too far away. The distance limit is roughly 60 miles; on a good day, 70 miles, consistently, with a large antenna.

is 44.1 off the air?

Your antenna's not pointed at Rockford. Next up, 13's digital channel actually broadcasts on UHF until 2009 (when it'll go to channel 13), and broadcasts the weakest UHF signal of all the Rockford stations. Your VHF sections are probably stronger/less directional than the UHF sections. Nothing to worry about and no need to replace anything.

Actually, WIFR-DT is the weakest at 50 kw, with interference from channel 41 from Chicago making things worse. Channel 13 broadcasts on channel 54 with about 169 kw, but because they are so high on the UHF band, it is a bit harder to get.

But you are right...no need to replace anything, but you might want to rotate your antenna to get it, or put on a second one up there and do an A/B switch at the TV if you're interested.

Seems WYCC-DT was just testing - it's gone back to the way it used to be now.

Either that, or they just put it back while they work on that 20.2 output.

For those interested in Channel Master products I saw at CM's website that True Value is a reseller of CM products. Today I went to my local True Value store and ordered a CM 4221.

The tricky part is when the owner went to search the True Value warehouse inventory using Channel Master as a search term, it brought up nothing. We did find it eventually but Channel Master is listed under their parent company PCT. Price was listed at $21, and there is no shipping. Solid Signal charges $16 for shipping alone. The Chicago warehouse was out of stock until next friday but I'm in no rush. If he had to bring it in from another warehouse then I would have to pay shipping. It seems like a good way to go if you know that you won't return it.

WGN-DT looked awful during the Cub game today. Even the slightest camera zoom or pan caused motion artifacts. The picture looked great as long as nothing was moving.
I shouldn't be surprised after enduring these artifacts on WGN for about 7 years, but today was the worst ever. Maybe someday they will update their equipment.

is 44.1 off the air?

Yep, finally got a chance to check. No idea why or when it will be back up. Obviously a serious transmitter failure....it's been over 4 days.

Yep, finally got a chance to check. No idea why or when it will be back up. Obviously a serious transmitter failure....it's been over 4 days.

When the DirecTV "techs" hooked up the new non tivo HD-DVR it didn't find 44.1 and I was very impressed until I tried it myself directly to the TV ATSC tuner. It's still a crappy receiver when you've been spoiled by their HD tivo. And its no better at receiving 56.1 than the tivo was. :rolleyes:

little help from the pros here

I'm in Wauconda (60084) 2 story home, tv (HD ready) is on the first floor and am wondering what is the smallest I can go to pick up OTA HD broadcasts

I'm not concerned with receiving WBBM .... mostly just want WMAQ, WFLD, and secondarily WLS and WGN

is this antenna (Philips MANT510) by any means an option?
http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Philips-Indoor-Antenna-MANT510/sem/rpsm/oid/158312/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do


yellow - uhf WSNS 44 TEL CHICAGO IL 142° 38.5 44
* yellow - uhf WSNS-DT 44.1 TEL CHICAGO IL 142° 38.5 45
yellow - uhf WPWR 50 MNT GARY IN 142° 38.5 50
* yellow - uhf WPWR-DT 50.1 MNT GARY IN 142° 38.5 51
* yellow - uhf WMAQ-DT 5.1 NBC CHICAGO IL 142° 38.5 29
yellow - uhf WXFT 60 TFA AURORA IL 142° 38.5 60
* yellow - uhf WXFT-DT 60.1 TFA AURORA IL 142° 38.5 59
* yellow - uhf WFLD-DT 32.1 FOX CHICAGO IL 142° 38.5 31
yellow - uhf WCIU 26 IND CHICAGO IL 142° 38.5 26
* yellow - uhf WCIU-DT 26.1 IND CHICAGO IL 142° 38.5 27
* green - uhf WCPX-DT 38.1 ION CHICAGO IL 142° 38.5 43
* green - uhf WTTW-DT 11.1 PBS CHICAGO IL 142° 38.5 47
* green - uhf WLS-DT 7.1 ABC CHICAGO IL 142° 38.5 52
lt green - vhf WTTW 11 PBS CHICAGO IL 142° 38.5 11
red - uhf WYCC 20 PBS CHICAGO IL 140° 37.9 20
red - uhf WGBO 66 UNI JOLIET IL 140° 37.9 66
red - uhf WFLD 32 FOX CHICAGO IL 140° 37.9 32
* red - uhf WGN-DT 9.1 CW CHICAGO IL 142° 38.5 19
red - uhf WPXE 55 ION KENOSHA WI 17° 32.6 55
blue - vhf WMAQ 5 NBC CHICAGO IL 142° 38.5 5
blue - uhf WCPX 38 ION CHICAGO IL 140° 37.9 38
blue - vhf WBBM 2 CBS CHICAGO IL 140° 37.9 2
* blue - vhf WBBM-DT 2.1 CBS CHICAGO IL 140° 37.9 3
blue - uhf WWME-CA 23 IND CHICAGO IL 142° 38.5 23
blue - uhf W34CK 34 REL ARLINGTON HEIGHTS IL 142° 38.5 34
blue - uhf W68DO 68 TBN PALATINE IL 142° 38.5 68
blue - vhf WGN 9 CW CHICAGO IL 140° 37.9 9
blue - vhf WLS 7 ABC CHICAGO IL 142° 38.5 7
blue - vhf WMVS 10 PBS MILWAUKEE WI 14° 55.8 10
blue - uhf WMVT 36 PBS MILWAUKEE WI 14° 55.8 36
blue - uhf WVCY 30 REL MILWAUKEE WI 14° 55.2 30
blue - uhf WVTV 18 CW MILWAUKEE WI 14° 55.9 18
blue - uhf WDJT 58 CBS MILWAUKEE WI 12° 56.6 58
blue - uhf WCGV 24 MNT MILWAUKEE WI 14° 55.2 24

I'm certainly not a *pro*, but I live about 33 miles south of you in Glendale Hgts. Just finished putting up a Winegard HD7082P. Got it from Tri-State Electronic in Mt Prospect. I found it on the web and called to check if they had it and got a price that was more than the website. Website was $89.55...store said $112.00. I asked about the difference and they said print out the page and they would give me the price. They did and it's a nice store; maybe more contractor than DIY but they seem to be good people.
Picked it up in a 94 Maxima and just slid it thru the trunk into the hole where the back armrest folds down.

Took 30 minutes to set it up and mount on the mast. Got it pointed toward Chicago and hooked up to a Tivo HD running into a Sony KD34XBR970 tube set thru component.

Here's what the Tivo signal meter says:
(9/22 11:30pm)

CBS 2-1 WBBMDT freq 3 peak 91 (great picture)

NBC 5-1 WMAQDT freq 29 peak 88 (great picture)
NBC 5-2 WMAQDT2 freq 29 peak 87 (great picture)

ABC 7-1 WLSDT freq 52 peak 91 (great picture)
ABC 7-2 WLSDT2 --------------same--------------
ABC 7-3 WLSDT3 --------------same--------------

CW 9-1 WGNDT freq 19 peak 81 (very good picture)
CW 9-2 WGNDT2 --------------same--------------

PBS 11-1 WTTWDT freq 47 peak 89 (very good picture)
PBS 11-2 WTTWDT2 --------------same--------------
PBS 11-3 WTTWDT3 --------------same--------------
PBS 11-4 WTTWDT4 --------------same--------------

PBS 20-1 WYCCDT freq 21 peak 52 (vcr quality picture)

IND 26-1 WCIU-DT freq 27 peak 57 (average picture)
IND 26-2 WCIU-DT2 --------------same--------------

FOX 32-1 WFLDDT freq 31 peak 91 (great picture)

ION 38-1 WCPX-DT freq 43 peak 91 (great picture)
ION 38-2 WCPX-DT2 --------------same--------------
ION 38-3 WCPX-DT3 --------------same--------------
ION 38-4 WCPX-DT4 --------------same--------------

??? 39-1 WQRFDT freq 42 peak 87 (no picture at all)

MNT 50-1 WPWRDT freq 51 peak 95 (great picture)

PBS 56-1 WYINDT freq 17 peak 63 (macroblocking)
PBS 56-2 WYINDT2 --------------same--------------

TFA 60-1 WXFTDT freq 59 peak 84 (good picture)

REL 62-1 WJYSDT freq 36 peak 84 (good picture)

UNI 66-1 WGBODT freq 53 peak 87 (good picture)
==================================================

I'm glad I got the Winegard even tho I thought it would be a lot more work than it was..and it's even better than I hoped.

I don't know how strong your signal is up there but I didn't think I could get by with an indoor antenna.

HTH

dave_k

little help from the pros here

I'm in Wauconda (60084) 2 story home, tv (HD ready) is on the first floor and am wondering what is the smallest I can go to pick up OTA HD broadcasts

I'm not concerned with receiving WBBM .... mostly just want WMAQ, WFLD, and secondarily WLS and WGN

is this antenna (Philips MANT510) by any means an option?
http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Philips-Indoor-Antenna-MANT510/sem/rpsm/oid/158312/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do


Hi Musick. I'm not too far from you, in Vernon Hills. Not one of the pros either, but I did pick up an indoor amplified antenna last spring, kind of like the one you linked to. (A G.E. Futura, from Home Depot, I think) It sits on a shelf above my TV on the first floor of my house. I just wanted to see if I could pick anything up. I got all the majors except WBBM-DT. Signal strength on the different channels ranges from 33% to 80%. Over time, though, my experience has been that on any given day, what came in at 80% yesterday may only be coming in 30% today, and results in drop-outs. I can honestly say that with this antenna, at some point over the last 6 months or so, every channel I have watched has experienced at least occasional drop-outs, some more than others. I'm just not able to get reliable reception with an indoor antenna at my location, over time. I'm considering an outdoor, roof-mounted antenna for this reason.

One other thing to note - you mentioned not being interested in WBBM-DT, and only secondarily interested in WFLD-DT and WLS-DT. WLS-DT is currently on UHF, which can be picked up by a small indoor antenna like you linked to. But once the digital cutover happens in Feb. 2009, they are moving to VHF channel 7, and I don't think you'll be able to pick them up in Wauconda with a small indoor antenna.

Not trying to discourage you. I say get the antenna - you should be able to get a signal, and you can decide if it's good enough for you or not. Worst case, you're out $40.

You can get the MANT510 at most Walmart stores. Just get it from there and you can easily return it with no hassles if it doesn't measure up.

The Radio Shack 15-1892 is supposed to be a pretty good amped indoor antenna, also. It has a memory for antenna positions and is remote controlled. It is also a VHF/UHF model, and is priced at 50 bucks.

PBS 20-1 WYCCDT freq 21 peak 52 (vcr quality picture) That "VCR-quality" picture isn't a result of the low signal strength, just so you know.

It's just naturally blurry like that. Even the analog version blows it away for sharpness and detail.

I really wish they would get on the ball and do something about that.

thanx for the opinions guys
I have Directv (non HD) for regular programming
I would just like to be able to see some hi def programming here and there

the cost of the MANT510 and the fact I could return it if I wasn't happy with the results more than justifys me giving it a try and if it does a pretty good job at getting signals it should be well worth the investment even if just used till 09

I really don't have the knowhow patience to put up an outdoor antenna and the same for going up into the attic (somewhere I haven't even bothered to go in 4 years since moving in)

That "VCR-quality" picture isn't a result of the low signal strength, just so you know.

It's just naturally blurry like that. Even the analog version blows it away for sharpness and detail.

I really wish they would get on the ball and do something about that.

Yeah, it looks like they just took their analog output and plugged it into an All-In-Wonder card to encode it for digital. WCIU had a similar look before they switched over to their digital system.

thanx for the opinions guys
I have Directv (non HD) for regular programming
I would just like to be able to see some hi def programming here and there

the cost of the MANT510 and the fact I could return it if I wasn't happy with the results more than justifys me giving it a try and if it does a pretty good job at getting signals it should be well worth the investment even if just used till 09

I really don't have the knowhow patience to put up an outdoor antenna and the same for going up into the attic (somewhere I haven't even bothered to go in 4 years since moving in)

It nice to watch HD local programing though OTA and not only that but if the dish is out you have a backup for local news or shows.

You might be surprise you might already have a antenna sitting up there.

-Willie

You might be surprise you might already have a antenna sitting up there.

-Willie

nope it was new construction :)

I'm certainly not a *pro*, but I live about 33 miles south of you in Glendale Hgts. Just finished putting up a Winegard HD7082P. Got it from Tri-State Electronic in Mt Prospect. I found it on the web and called to check if they had it and got a price that was more than the website. Website was $89.55...store said $112.00. I asked about the difference and they said print out the page and they would give me the price. They did and it's a nice store; maybe more contractor than DIY but they seem to be good people.
Picked it up in a 94 Maxima and just slid it thru the trunk into the hole where the back armrest folds down.

Took 30 minutes to set it up and mount on the mast. Got it pointed toward Chicago and hooked up to a Tivo HD running into a Sony KD34XBR970 tube set thru component.
I'm glad I got the Winegard even tho I thought it would be a lot more work than it was..and it's even better than I hoped.

I don't know how strong your signal is up there but I didn't think I could get by with an indoor antenna.

HTH

dave_k

Hi Dave,

This is what happens when you do it right. The Winegard 7082P is the perfect size for your location; it will allow you to get everything you need, obviously. As for WYIN-DT breaking up, that's from the antenna not pointing in the right direction. If it was pointed a little more south, you'd get it. Of course, you'd probably lose everything else, or have lower signal strength.

What I am most fascinated by is one entry you listed: WQRF-DT. That's the 900 kilowatt blowtorch FOX affiliate from Rockford off the back of your antenna. This also tells me that from Glendale Heights with that antenna, you'd probably get it reasonably solid (and possibly WTVO-DT, the ABC affiliate---it's tower is on a small hill and even though it has only 190-ish kilowatts, people in the south suburbs get it fairly often), if you pointed the antenna to your northwest.

In fact, if you really want to have fun, try pointing it at Rockford and then try pointing it at Milwaukee, doing a scan each time, and seeing what you can get.

And kudos to you for getting the Internet-advertised price at a discount. $90 for that thing is a steal!!! :cool: It may be work, but as I said before, do the work and get what you need and it will pay off. You, sir, will have some fine HDTV, even in bad weather, for many years to come. Way to go!

BTW finally got the 7084P up in Arlington Heights today, and in combination with a new AP-8700 pre-amp, I'm pulling in most of the main locals 88%-94% on the signal meter - and that's after a four-way split. Interestingly enough, I've found that the two weakest digital signals to be WLS, which can go down to 85% but generally holds at about 88%, and WJYS which holds at no less than 60%. The main local analogs are crystal-clear with the exception of some very minor static on WFLD (probably electrical interference). No ghosting, and best of all no back-end reception clutter - stupendous to say the least. Winegard makes a heckuva antenna, and I regret having procrastinated for so long. For all those who have thought about it, Sebenste's right - just do it, you won't regret it.

One other thought - Dave K, if you simply hooked your antenna up to a moderate-level pre-amp, I think that you would peg the signal meter on all the Chicago main digitals. If you've gone this far with your installation, why not seal the deal... Just my two cents.


PBS 20-1 WYCCDT freq 21 peak 52 (vcr quality picture)

IND 26-1 WCIU-DT freq 27 peak 57 (average picture)

BTW finally got the 7084P up in Arlington Heights today, and in combination with a new AP-8700 pre-amp, I'm pulling in most of the main locals 88%-94% on the signal meter - and that's after a four-way split. Interestingly enough, I've found that the two weakest digital signals to be WLS, which can go down to 85% but generally holds at about 88%, and WJYS which holds at no less than 60%. The main local analogs are crystal-clear with the exception of some very minor static on WFLD (probably electrical interference). No ghosting, and best of all no back-end reception clutter - stupendous to say the least. Winegard makes a heckuva antenna, and I regret having procrastinated for so long. For all those who have thought about it, Sebenste's right - just do it, you won't regret it.

Yeah, Ramm *cough, cough*...what he said. ;) :D Glad it worked out for you, but I'm scratching my head on the minor static on WFLD-TV analog. Just for your reference, you are on the southern edge---literally--of Milwaukee coverage, line of sight. You should, with that setup, be able to get some, if not many, of their stations. Also, I more than bet you can get WQRF-DT FOX Rockford (42.1, resolves to 39.1), and maybe WTVO-DT ABC Rockford (16.1, resolves to 17.1 and 17.2) if you turned that antenna northwest. Might be worth a try, in case there are problems with the local affiliates, or if you want to see Packer games. As an example, the audio on the Bears "game" tonight is louder and crisp on WREX-DT, the NBC affiliate in Rockford.


One other thought - Dave K, if you simply hooked your antenna up to a moderate-level pre-amp, I think that you would peg the signal meter on all the Chicago main digitals. If you've gone this far with your installation, why not seal the deal... Just my two cents.

If your signal levels are strong on all channels...none are needed. If they are "good" to "poor", but not "very good" or "excellent" in general, then get one. If you get dropouts or lose channels from time to time, then get one if it's due to low signal.

BTW, WMAQ-DT isn't macroblocking enough. I want to see one pixel for the rest of this nightmare of a game. And an audio "technical difficulty". A rather good description of how the Bears are playing tonight, too. :rolleyes:

thanx for the opinions guys
I have Directv (non HD) for regular programming
I would just like to be able to see some hi def programming here and there

the cost of the MANT510 and the fact I could return it if I wasn't happy with the results more than justifys me giving it a try and if it does a pretty good job at getting signals it should be well worth the investment even if just used till 09

I really don't have the knowhow patience to put up an outdoor antenna and the same for going up into the attic (somewhere I haven't even bothered to go in 4 years since moving in)
Hi Musick,

I bet you won't get much (hope I am wrong). I have a friend who lives in Wauconda, and lives 1 block northeast of Bang's lake. He has a townhome which has an amplifier of unknown strength, and has an unknown antenna up there (I'm guessing decent sized) up in the second floor attic. I tried getting digital signals with my tuner, and got one. One, as in WGN-DT...and that's it!
Even with the antenna pointed at Chicago, I could lock two Milwaukee stations. I bet you'll have better fortune getting Milwaukee, and with WQRF-DT Rockford blasting at you with 900,000 watts, you should lock them easily.

WGN-DT looked awful during the Cub game today. Even the slightest camera zoom or pan caused motion artifacts. The picture looked great as long as nothing was moving.
I shouldn't be surprised after enduring these artifacts on WGN for about 7 years, but today was the worst ever. Maybe someday they will update their equipment.

I didn't see the game Saturday, but yesterday it was as bad as you described. The picture was bad OTA and off the D* satellite. I saw highlights on ch. 7 news last night and they had the pixelization too.

I posted this elsewhere but was recommended to post this here to see if I can get some suggestions...

I'm located 32 miles west/southwest of Chicago in ZIP code 60532. I'm on the 2nd floor of a 3-story apt. building, and my unit's windows all face southwest, directly opposite from where my OTA signals come.

I've tried a couple different indoor antennas, the latest being the much-touted Silver Sensor. Although that particular antenna is better than others I've tried, it still doesn't pull in the signals as well as I'd like.

I have the luxury of having an indoor antenna in a bedroom and pointing it toward Chicago, with the cable from the antenna running to the living room satellite receivers. I do this for aesthetic purposes, which also means that if I need to, I can use a bigger and better--even uglier--antenna to pull in the signals. I'd love to be able to do this to also get my CBS affiliate, WBBM Channel 2, which (a) beams from the Hancock building--all others come from the Sears Tower; and (b) is on a much lower frequency, meaning it can't come in like all the other primary channels.

So, what I'm wondering is if I can use an antenna that normally is installed outdoor to get better signals and possibly my CBS station (though the former is more important to me than the latter). Because this antenna would be "hidden" in a room that no one would enter or see, I don't mind it being aesthetically bad.

Any suggestions on whether I could do this, and if so, which models might be good? Obviously a huge antenna wouldn't do the trick--I don't have the space to put up a bowtie antenna that would stretch 6 or more feet across (roughly).

well I went out today and picked up the Philips MANT510 indoor antenna and I can happily report I am now OTA active from Wauconda

didn't do a lot of adjusting and moving around and here is what I was able to get to come in

NBC5 - DT 5.1
NBC5 - WX 5.2
WLS - HD 7.1
WLSSD2 7.2
WLSSD2 7.3
WGN - DT 9.1 (kept loosing signal)
The Tube 9.2 (semi clear signal)
WTTW - HD 11.1
WTTW - DT 11.2
WTTW - DT 11.3
WTTW - DT 11.4
WFLD - DT 32.1
WPWRDT 50.1
WPWR 51.3
59.3 (no signal)
WXFT - DT 60.1 (no signal)
WGBO DT 66.1 (weak signal)

EDIT:
add
ION 38.1
QUBO 38.2
IONLife 38.3
Worship 38.2 (weak signal)


for the low price of $34.88 I am exstatic

oddly enough I have the swivel panel aimed toward the west when it should be pointed east to get the stations
aiming it east produces much worse results

aiming it east produces much worse results

Hi Musick,

try pointing it southeast and then north-northeast. See what you get.

don't pick up anything new that I can tell
just loose WFLD when I move it away from west - sw

I'm sure if I were to move the antenna more then from where I have it sitting right now I could pick up more including WGN I would think since it registered the station when I scanned

still not sure why I am getting the best reception pointed west

Lord Vader,

The Channel Master 4228 is a very popular outdoor antenna for use in an attic. It's UHF only so channel 2 won't get picked up. Maybe in Feb. 2009 when channel 2 goes to the channel 12 slot.

If you really want channel 2 before then, you'll need a huge, room-filling antenna.

That's what I was afraid of, bakers. I can live without channel 2, since I can get the HD version on my HR20-700 or via channel 80, DirecTV's HD DNS. I'm more concerned with pulling in WTTW-11's sub-channels, as well as WCIU-26's and WFLD32's, which both seem to be problematic right now.

I live 62 miles south of the city per Antennaweb.org and I recently had installed a Winegard 8200 and a Winegard AP-8700 amp on an existing 28ft tower. The installer was not up to speed on DTV. I believe the antenna is not pointed accurately and not grounded. I have since called and begged an installer from a further distance who denied my original request of installation due to distance to take a look a it.

I have an 42" LG Plasma with built-in DVR which picks up an amazing HDTV picture.

Now that you know my situation I have two questions.

1. With proper installation will I be able to receive WBBM 3 DTV more than 20% of the time.

2. Will Feb 2009 make be the end of WLS 7 DTV for me.


I am willing to suggestion of additional hardware.

Thanks for your time

I was able to get WGN last night with some repositioning of the rabbit ears on the MANT510.... also picked up WYCC
but at the same time lost a few of the other non-essential channels

don't know why I haven't picked up WCIU yet

again very happy to be able to do this for just over $30 and have the antenna inside without a lot of setup/work

I was able to get WGN last night with some repositioning of the rabbit ears on the MANT510.... also picked up WYCC
but at the same time lost a few of the other non-essential channels

don't know why I haven't picked up WCIU yet

again very happy to be able to do this for just over $30 and have the antenna inside without a lot of setup/workThere are other antennas you could try that may perform better in your situation than the Philips model. Why just settle for what you've got now?

I can get everything but WBBM-DT here in C.L. from 40 miles out with an indoor antenna. I can even get all of the Rockford stations at 45 miles. (The antenna needs to practically be up to the living room ceiling, though, for those.)

I live 62 miles south of the city per Antennaweb.org and I recently had installed a Winegard 8200 and a Winegard AP-8700 amp on an existing 28ft tower. The installer was not up to speed on DTV. I believe the antenna is not pointed accurately and not grounded. I have since called and begged an installer from a further distance who denied my original request of installation due to distance to take a look a it.

I have an 42" LG Plasma with built-in DVR which picks up an amazing HDTV picture.

Now that you know my situation I have two questions.

1. With proper installation will I be able to receive WBBM 3 DTV more than 20% of the time.

2. Will Feb 2009 make be the end of WLS 7 DTV for me.


I am willing to suggestion of additional hardware.

Thanks for your timeExactly where are you? WBBM is pretty much out of the question at that distance, but you may have another CBS station within reach. Of course, you'd need a rotor if you still wanted the Chicago market - unless you could add another antenna and a "jointenna" coupler just for that one station.

I am in Chebanse, IL . The first town south of Kankakee on I-57

There are other antennas you could try that may perform better in your situation than the Philips model. Why just settle for what you've got now?

I can get everything but WBBM-DT here in C.L. from 40 miles out with an indoor antenna. I can even get all of the Rockford stations at 45 miles. (The antenna needs to practically be up to the living room ceiling, though, for the Rockford ones.)

I don't consider it settling in the least
I am very happy with the low cost purchase and from what I understand this antenna (MANT510) is one of the best at what it is meant to do
I have no need for WBBM.... nothing on that channel interests me in the least 'cept maybe Letterman on the rare occasion and I am not a Bears (NFL) fan

this setup in no way is going to replace my Directv service as I enjoy a great number of stations via their service (including NHL Center Ice)

the antenna will just allow me to watch some of my favorite programming now in HD (NHL on NBC, The Office, 24, Heroes, some college football, and a bit of MLB)

As long as you are satisfied and can get everything you really want dependably, I can't say anything.

But trust me - there are better indoor antennas. The amps on those Philips models are very noisy. Scan through the analog channels, and if you see those diagonal, scrolling lines, you see what I'm talking about. Something like a Silver Sensor with a good, low-noise amp added should easily outperform that little, rectangular UHF element on the Philips.

Probably no indoor model's gonna get WBBM-DT at our distances, though. As well as I can receive everything else, that one will never be possible from indoors as long as it's still low-VHF. Believe me, I've tried everything. I can get it from outdoors, though, with only amped rabbit ears.

Other than Letterman, I really don't watch anything on WBBM, either. I'm pretty fortunate to be situated well enough to able to get CBS out of Rockford and Milwaukee (which are both UHF), so it's there for me if I want it.

It is nice, like you say, that the new season of network HD programming has finally started. Seems like we've been waiting forever. I even unhooked my newer, Samsung DTB-H260F ATSC tuner and re-set up my Sony OTA DVR just for the occasion. The Sammy performs better, but I really do need that HD DVR now.

still wondering why when I show the stations I am after transmit from southeast of my location why I have the best results with the panel aimed/rotated west?

http://www.circuitcity.com/IMAGE/product/detail/phl/EC.PHL.MANT510.JPG

also is there any rule of thumb as to how long to extend the rabbit ears and in what direction to point them or is it all just trial and error?

If all you're getting is the UHF channels (which is everything but 'BBM), then extending the rabbit ears more than about 10 inches really isn't going to affect things all that much.

Mostly just trial and error, though, as far as positioning them.

The reason you're getting better results with it pointed to the side is that you're likely receiving reflections of the signals off of something. If you could get more of a clear shot towards the towers, like in a window somewhere, you'll probably get a much stronger, direct signal then. You may get more channels, too.

Also, the higher up you can get that antenna in altitude, the better.

ok cool that's what I thought about extending them for UHF
I will try different angles though for results

as for moving the unit... yeah I am only working with the 6' of cable given so I'm sure if I were to go beyond that and move the unit elsewhere I would as you say get more

ok cool that's what I thought about extending them for UHF
I will try different angles though for results

as for moving the unit... yeah I am only working with the 6' of cable given so I'm sure if I were to go beyond that and move the unit elsewhere I would as you say get moreIt's all just trial and error, basically - especially when it comes to indoor antennas.

yeah I think I'll just leave it be right now as I am getting NBC, ABC, WGN, WTTW, WFLD, and WPWR solidly on a consistant basis

the only thing I'm really missing is WCIU which I haven't locked a scan on thus far and all those other channels I lost when I repositioned to pick up WGN really aren't of importance to me and I can always reaquire with some movement

other than that I don't think there is anything I'm missing that I 'could' get that I would want

My first thought is that you may be able to get some Champaign stations. According to the FCC search tool, WCIA (48) is still under construction, but once they hit 1000 kw they should be nothing short of a blowtorch down there, and they may be your CBS answer. You may very well get other channels, but unfortunately you are situated 'in-between' the broadcast areas, so it may be hit or miss. You won't know until you try, though.

The FCC also says you are still (barely) in range for WBBM on 3. You should try a more powerful pre-amp like the AP-8275 and see what comes in when you turn your antenna both north and south. (I use the AP-8700 in Arlington Heights and it works well for me since the stations are only 23 miles away. The AP-8275 is double the gain and would overload at my place, but in Chebanse you will need all the help you can get.)

I am in Chebanse, IL . The first town south of Kankakee on I-57

yeah I think I'll just leave it be right now as I am getting NBC, ABC, WGN, WTTW, WFLD, and WPWR solidly on a consistant basis

the only thing I'm really missing is WCIU which I haven't locked a scan on thus far and all those other channels I lost when I repositioned to pick up WGN really aren't of importance to me and I can always reaquire with some movement

other than that I don't think there is anything I'm missing that I 'could' get that I would want


WCCU Fox-27 Urbana is likely your problem. Going to have to wait until Feb 2009 for it to go away.

Yeah, there's a guy here from Manteno that has problems with WCIU also.

But I think musick is in Wauconda, isn't he? (Now I'm getting confused, too.)

I'd definitely get the most directional antenna I could find, too. Where I'm at, WOCH-LP (41 analog) from Chicago was interfering with my reception of WIFR-DT (41) from Rockford, but since I've been using the very directional RS U-75R, I don't have a problem with it.

yes I am in Wauconda... needless to say nothing coming from Urbana is getting in the way of my sig

I live 62 miles south of the city per Antennaweb.org and I recently had installed a Winegard 8200 and a Winegard AP-8700 amp on an existing 28ft tower. The installer was not up to speed on DTV. I believe the antenna is not pointed accurately and not grounded. I have since called and begged an installer from a further distance who denied my original request of installation due to distance to take a look a it.

I have an 42" LG Plasma with built-in DVR which picks up an amazing HDTV picture.

Now that you know my situation I have two questions.

1. With proper installation will I be able to receive WBBM 3 DTV more than 20% of the time.

2. Will Feb 2009 make be the end of WLS 7 DTV for me.


I am willing to suggestion of additional hardware.

Thanks for your time
1. It depends on how poor the current installation is. The main things that will matter are: a) is the antenna pointed correctly, b) what is the signal loss between your antenna and the amp, and c) what kind of signal impairments (multipath, trees, buildings, etc.) are affecting you.

a) Antenna beam widths at VHF are usually pretty wide (~60 degrees), so you probably won't see that much of a difference if the antenna is off by just a few degrees. The antenna would need to be pointed pretty far off to make much of a difference.

b) Every balun, splitter, filter, cable, and connector between your antenna and the amp will cause you to lose some signal-to-noise margin, so you'll want to minimize this as much as possible. If you keep this section simple and short, you'll maximize the signal quality that you have to work with. This section is critical for maintaining the highest possible SNR.

c) Usually multipath and trees are the primary causes of signal fluctuation. Sometimes, relocating the antenna helps. It requires a lot of trial-and-error and may not be an option for some people. Other things to look for are how much clearance you have over nearby obstructions (e.g., a neighbor's roof) and distance from other conductive elements (e.g. other antennas, metallic building materials, etc.). Since VHF wavelengths are quite long, the "region of influence" surrounding the antenna and signal path is bigger than UHF signals.


The amount of improvement you can expect to see depends on how well the current setup has been optimized. Even if everything is set up right, you might still be limited by multpath/building/tree effects that are out of your control.




2) Since you have a UHF/VHF combo antenna, the move of WLS to channel 7 doesn't seem like it should pose a problem. If their new DTV transmitter is comparable to their existing analog transmitter, then you're probably still going to be OK.



Best regards,
Andy

Yeah, there's a guy here from Manteno that has problems with WCIU also.

But I think musick is in Wauconda, isn't he? (Now I'm getting confused, too.)

I'd definitely get the most directional antenna I could find, too. Where I'm at, WOCH-LP (41 analog) from Chicago was interfering with my reception of WIFR-DT (41) from Rockford, but since I've been using the very directional RS U-75R, I don't have a problem with it.

WCIU-DT is hammered by WCCU-TV 27 from Urbana from the south, and the blowtorch WKOW-TV 27 from Madison from the northwest, which is Musick's problem (I had a guy in Hoffman Estates have problems with it until he got the Winegard 8200P to keep WKOW from messing up WCIU). Even on a sunny day in DeKalb with clear, cool temperatures during the day and light winds with no tropo, I could still see it under the fuzz from WCIU-DT until WCIU-DT went full power. You're likely getting interference from WKOW. Again, February 2007 will clear that up.

interesting to hear
thanx for the heads up

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fresnel_zone

The long explanation for why higher is better...

For those of you watching WYCC-DT tonight, you already know that 20.1 is a nice, sharp 1080i...no longer an upconvert on old equipment. 20-2 is not as sharp, but still a lot better than the old 20.1. It's a simulcast of 20-1, which is odd, but in any event, both are looking very good.

Comcast now does not carry two locals in HD. And DirecTV's/Dish count is now up to 4.

And AVSForum antenna users...0. Priceless. :D

For those of you watching WYCC-DT tonight, you already know that 20.1 is a nice, sharp 1080i...no longer an upconvert on old equipment. 20-2 is not as sharp, but still a lot better than the old 20.1. It's a simulcast of 20-1, which is odd, but in any event, both are looking very good.

Comcast now does not carry two locals in HD. And DirecTV's/Dish count is now up to 4.

And AVSForum antenna users...0. Priceless. :D

doesn't look bad, and the new bug is awfully svelt

is there a future of widescreen and possible real HD programming for 20.1?

doesn't look bad, and the new bug is awfully svelt

is there a future of widescreen and possible real HD programming for 20.1?

You bet, WYCC already confirmed that in the Sun-Times when they said after the move-in, they would be doing it (how far or long it would take after they moved in, they didn't say). But suffice it to say, they didn't just spend a lot of money for 1080i equipment for 4:3 programming. :D

That said...the bug is TOO small. It either needs to be disposed of, or made larger. I can just barely make out WYCC on my 26" screen.

so here's my thing with the new and improved wycc...

i use vista media center...their sub-channel guide data doesn't work...you have to do a hack that inegrates a head end data from a cable zap2it listing into ATSC channel lists...if wycc goes with a .1 and .2 with different programming on each and comcast doesn't carry both channels, i will only be able to get the guide data for the channel carried by comcast, which proly would (edit) NOT be the hd one...

stupid ms.

so here's my thing with the new and improved wycc...

i use vista media center...their sub-channel guide data doesn't work...you have to do a hack that inegrates a head end data from a cable zap2it listing into ATSC channel lists...if wycc goes with a .1 and .2 with different programming on each and comcast doesn't carry both channels, i will only be able to get the guide data for the channel carried by comcast, which proly would (edit) NOT be the hd one...

stupid ms.

Well, hold on...that's because 20.2 isn't official. The FCC rules say you need to have separate children's programming from what the main channel shows, if you have active subchannels. 20-3 is active again and running bars/tone.
Folks, here's a completely uneducated, speculative guess on what I think will happen. Did I say completely uneducated, speculative guess?

20.1 ---WYCC-DT, widescreen/HD when possible
20-2 ---PBS KIDS
20-3 ---PBS News/current affairs/global news channel (I forgot the name of it)

I might have them switched. Here's the thought process behind this *guess*: PBS Kids is on Comcast, but not OTA. That's pretty wretched of PBS to do, since they're supposed to be "public", right? I bet that gets fixed here.

PBS World/whatever fits WYCC-DT's genre of programming at night, which is becoming, or has become, a global news/issues network (reference DW, BBC, and Ireland's network news, the latter shown at 12:30 AM).

This is just a guess. But 20-2 cannot simulcast 20-1 except in test mode without offering additional children's programming. WYCC is up to something.

I apologize in advance for this being long. I live in Aurora near Ogden & Eola. I have a huge Radio Shack antenna, likely the VU-190 XR or whatever was similar to it 8-9 years ago. I purchased it mainly to tune in FM on my stereo.
Now that I have an HDTV and find cable & satellite prices ridiculous, I’ve been using my antenna to pull in those free HD/Digital channels with great success, except, of course, for channel 2.1 WBBM. I have a direct run of RG from the antenna to the tv with no splitters in between. Also, using a compass I have positioned my antenna to the heading recommended by antennaweb.
I know my main problem is that the antenna is in the attic, but my roof is angled/scary enough to keep me off it if at all possible. Without a pre-amp all channels come in at an average of 75% strength, except for 9.1 WGN at 15% (no viewable picture) and 2.1 WBBM at 30-35% (very pixilated and unwatchable). With a pre-amp all stations average about 85-90% strength, with 9.1 WGN boosted to a very watchable 70%. However, 2.1 WBBM stays at a wimpy 30-35%. Sometimes at night it goes to 40% and I can actually watch it, but it still gets drop-outs. I would think getting it to 50-60% would provide constantly viewable images.
The pre-amps I’ve tested are Winegard AP2870, Radio Shack Model: 15-2507, Channel Master 3041DBS, and a Phillips/Magnavox M61112 (from Menards). All have similar specs and produced roughly the same results. I am keeping the Magnavox since it is the cheapest ($25). I originally wanted a Channel Master 7777 but I can’t get one unless I order it online, and if it doesn’t work, returning it is a pain, plus restocking fees, etc….
So on to my questions: Why don’t the pre-amps boost 2.1 WBBM the same way that 9.1 WGN gets a signal increase? I’m obviously getting a pretty good lock on WBBM if I can get 30% in an attic without amplification, but the pre-amps seem to have no affect on boosting the signal. With that being said, is the Channel Master 7777 that much better? Or am I taking a gamble by ordering one? Can anybody offer any other suggestions besides mounting the antenna on the roof, for now?
I appreciate the help,
Matt
P.S. For what it’s worth, I am able to pick up the analog WBBM. Although it’s a little more snowy than I’d like, it is watchable.
I'm near you. I use the 7777 with an Antennas Direct DB4 MKII in my attic. I get WBBM DT in watchable form 95% of evenings and maybe 80% of days. (I don't watch much daytime TV.) By watchable I mean something like 5 momentary dropouts during an hour.

Dan (Woj...)

Well, hold on...that's because 20.2 isn't official. The FCC rules say you need to have separate children's programming from what the main channel shows, if you have active subchannels. 20-3 is active again and running bars/tone.
Folks, here's a completely uneducated, speculative guess on what I think will happen. Did I say completely uneducated, speculative guess?

20.1 ---WYCC-DT, widescreen/HD when possible
20-2 ---PBS KIDS
20-3 ---PBS News/current affairs/global news channel (I forgot the name of it)

I might have them switched. Here's the thought process behind this *guess*: PBS Kids is on Comcast, but not OTA. That's pretty wretched of PBS to do, since they're supposed to be "public", right? I bet that gets fixed here.

PBS World/whatever fits WYCC-DT's genre of programming at night, which is becoming, or has become, a global news/issues network (reference DW, BBC, and Ireland's network news, the latter shown at 12:30 AM).

This is just a guess. But 20-2 cannot simulcast 20-1 except in test mode without offering additional children's programming. WYCC is up to something.


Regarding 20.2 and 20.3...

MHz Worldview (nationally in USA). This is available on LRS Access (Comcast cable ch. 19) in Colorado Springs, CO; MPS (Time Warner ch. 76) in Minneapolis, MN; and WEIU (ch. 51 and 51-2 digital [RF ch. setting 50-2]) in Charleston, IL, KCSM in San Francisco, CA (digital ch. 43-2), DirecTV (international package only, ch. 2183 and requires special dish); and on Globecast WorldTV (channel 156) all with the same schedule as MHz Worldview in our listings. Future coverage on KBTC in Seattle / Tacoma, WA (starting date TBA); WYCC-TV in Chicago, IL (digital ch. 21-2 starting date TBA); KBDI in Denver, CO (date TBA); KVCR and KLCS, Los Angeles (date TBA). More info on these outlets will be added as it becomes available.

the above taken from:

http://www.afana.com/drupal/tvinfo

See also:

http://www.mhzworldview.org/

And 20.3 is now labeled as "MEGA HD" -- the M in MHz

so which channels are we going to lose/gain/switch in feb 09?


gotta a link or something?

hi guys, i need antenna help and you guys are my last resort so here goes. i live in zip code 60443 in a manufactured home community which says i can not have an outdoor antenna which i know is not true but i would rather not get every one of my neighbors in an uproar so, what can i do to get decent ota reception? i have tried 4 indoor antennas with little luck-i am currently using the philips manta950 which states it can be used indoors or outdoors and it actually picks up most hd stations pretty well. its odd as it is just lying in front of my 46" samsung rear projection tv on the tv stand. it by far gives me the best picture but guess what, i would like to get the infamous wbbm. my house has vinyl siding as do all of the homes here-i do not have an attic that i can put an antenna in except in the garage which is detached from my house and appr. 4 feet away from the house. it would also be nice if i could have the antenna on more than one tv as i have one tv in my living room and 2 more in bedrooms. the one tv is only hd ready but the other 2 have built in hd tuners. i also should state that i need something easy to install as i am a middle aged woman who will either need something i can do myself or get one of the son in laws to come over and do for me. they will do it but won't want to really get into it to find my best solution, it will be get it done and get the heck outta here before she needs more help. or i can try to find someone who installs antennas which seems almost impossible to do. i do have comcast but would like to be able to cancel them if i can get channel 2-haha. am i too far away to achieve this without an antenna on the roof? and where do i go to buy one if you guys happen to be able to give me any help? the philips manta i picked up i just happened to see at menards and bought it as i knew they would take it back if it didn't work. do you guys have any thoughts for me? thanks

You're right - I'm in Greggs Landing.

Good to hear you got everything except WBBM with the attic antenna. I'm currently able get all UHF stations with an indoor antenna, works just fine about 90% of the time, anyway. Ch. 20 is iffy most of the time, though.

My attic is kind of weird - I have a support 3 feet or so, that looks like the letter A on it's side, for the length of the attic. I'll have to go up again and look, but I don't think I can get a really big antenna to fit in there. Plus, I'd hate to have to pull it out of there if I can't get WBBM reliably.
I'm out in the Naperville/Aurora area, about 35 miles from the transmitters in Chicago. I'm using an Antennas Direct V4 MKII with a Channel Master 7777 pre-amp in my attic. The combo provides excellent reception for everything from Chicago, including *very* reasonable reception of WBBM-DT. If you want to try for 2.1 and you have a constrained space, I (keep) recommending the V4 MKII. At 110" wide by 59" long, its the most compact antenna I've found that will pull in WBBM. And despite the descriptioin as a "low VHF" antenna, I've tried it against a DB4 (4 bow tie) UHF antenna with the same pre-amp, and the V4 MKII is just as good as the DB4 for all UHF stations as well (at least for my location). And at $49, it's not so expensive that you couldn't try it as an experiment.

Good luck, and good reception,
Dan (Woj...)

so which channels are we going to lose/gain/switch in feb 09?


gotta a link or something?

See post #3 of this thread.

I'm near you. I use the 7777 with an Antennas Direct DB4 MKII in my attic. I get WBBM DT in watchable form 95% of evenings and maybe 80% of days. (I don't watch much daytime TV.) By watchable I mean something like 5 momentary dropouts during an hour.

Dan (Woj...)
Ack... typing too quickly. V4 MKII antenna. I've got a DB4 as well, but the V4 MKII gives great VHF reception, and by my meters, is just as good on UHF as the DB4.

Dan (Woj...)

Regarding 20.2 and 20.3...

MHz Worldview (nationally in USA). This is available on LRS Access (Comcast cable ch. 19) in Colorado Springs, CO; MPS (Time Warner ch. 76) in Minneapolis, MN; and WEIU (ch. 51 and 51-2 digital [RF ch. setting 50-2]) in Charleston, IL, KCSM in San Francisco, CA (digital ch. 43-2), DirecTV (international package only, ch. 2183 and requires special dish); and on Globecast WorldTV (channel 156) all with the same schedule as MHz Worldview in our listings. Future coverage on KBTC in Seattle / Tacoma, WA (starting date TBA); WYCC-TV in Chicago, IL (digital ch. 21-2 starting date TBA); KBDI in Denver, CO (date TBA); KVCR and KLCS, Los Angeles (date TBA). More info on these outlets will be added as it becomes available.

the above taken from:

http://www.afana.com/drupal/tvinfo

See also:

http://www.mhzworldview.org/

And 20.3 is now labeled as "MEGA HD" -- the M in MHz

Well, so much for my uneducated guesses! Thanks, betz. A few people in Champaign who get MHz Worldview say it is interesting. It will be interesting to see what happens with 20-3.

Cubs win! Cubs win! Cubs win!...in 1080i! :D

Awwwright...the Sox did it a few years ago, now it's OUR turn! :cool:

And just to keep this on-topic, FOX will carry us in the World Series in 720p HD. :cool:

(The bad part is...I missed the clincher game because I don't have cable. Cest la vie. I'll see 'em win the series.)

OK, and to really and seriously keep this on topic...the tropo tonight was both amazing and wretched. Analog channel 7 was annhilated by digital channel 7 in Grand Rapids, MI...and I wanted to see their coverage!Milwaukee is unbelievably strong with channel 63 analog almost perfect, with my 4228 pointed at Chicago, and that's a low-power station! Madison booming in, South Bend, 63-65 and channels 68 and 69 are full of stations, some overlapping. Get this: WNDU-DT has knocked out my reception of 900 kw FOX Rockford here! OK, the antenna is still pointed east, BUT it's never done that since they went full power!

And...digital hashing on WIFR-TV 23 analog was likely from a low-power digital station, WMYS-LD, in South Bend. But I did get some Quad Cities too.
And I see a nice picture on analog channel 14, the "CW" affiliate from Green Bay, WI, right over the police band interference from the Chicago area. Off topic: I'm getting weather radio stations from Wisconsin tonight! Gotta love a fall high pressure system sitting on top of us. Tomorrow night should have decent tropo, too.

GO CUBS! Go tropo! :D

Thanks, Brewers! :p :D

ok, maybe this will help someone to help me find a solution-i drove around and saw a few rooftop antennas so this is now an option for me-anyone have a suggestion which one i should buy and where i can find it? again i live in zip code 60443-i am a few blocks east of ridgeland avenue and about a mile-maybe a mile and a half south of route 30 (lincoln highway). i would like to be able to get wbbm

ok, maybe this will help someone to help me find a solution-i drove around and saw a few rooftop antennas so this is now an option for me-anyone have a suggestion which one i should buy and where i can find it? again i live in zip code 60443-i am a few blocks east of ridgeland avenue and about a mile-maybe a mile and a half south of route 30 (lincoln highway). i would like to be able to get wbbm

Labnpei,

The Winegard HD7084P is the antenna you want. Yes, I know it is large. Unfortunately, you need it to get WBBM. The 7082P might be a tad bit too small to get WBBM-DT reliably at 32 miles out, and so I am erring on the side of caution here.

https://www.tselectronic.com/winegard/hd7084.html

I know this is in Mt. Prospect, but it would be cheaper to drive up there and get it. If you do that, their in-store price is higher...print out the page above is paragraph, show it to them, and they'll give you the online price. Or, you could order it and have it shipped to you. Be advised, however, that shipping will probably run $30 or more...and that may even be way too low. I don't know.

The box for the Winegard 7084 antenna is over 100" long. Unless you have a large enough van, you will probably have to haul it in your car much the same way as you would with lumber, which means having it stick out the back and hope the cops don't stop you on the way home. (There's probably another way to do it legally, but don't ask me how...)

Note that the 7084 is the largest Winegard model that will ship via UPS, and the figures I've seen so far appear to be fairly reasonable. As an example, Solid Signal quotes $25.95 to ship the 7084 by UPS (however, their antenna price is higher at $108.99). I'm not sure what Tri State would charge for shipping, but since they don't quote it online, beware as they might overcharge you in a comparative sense. As it stands, I too have also noticed in the past how they do not honor their online prices in the store unless you 'remind' them, and I find that somewhat irritating.

In comparison, the carton for the even more ginormous Winegard 8200 antenna is over 120" long and is over the UPS threshold; the special carrier prices to ship the 8200 will almost double the price of the unit. You don't have to worry about this with the 7084, however.

In short, the 7084 can be shipped by most major carriers, and the cost is not that tremendous. Depending on the specifics of your situation, it may be well worth it.

The box for the Winegard 7084 antenna is over 100" long. Unless you have a large enough van, you will probably have to haul it in your car much the same way as you would with lumber, which means having it stick out the back and hope the cops don't stop you on the way home. (There's probably another way to do it legally, but don't ask me how...)
The way is this: Head to Menards, or Home Depot, and grab one of their "flags" that you can put on the end of the box. Then you should be OK.


I ended up buying it online because I didn't want to go through the trouble of getting that thing home on my own. Note that the 7084 is the largest Winegard model that will ship via UPS (the carton for the 8200 is over 120" long and is over the UPS threshold; the common carrier prices to ship the 8200 will almost double the price of the unit). As an example, Solid Signal quotes $25.95 to ship the 7084 by UPS. However, their antenna price is higher, at $108.99. I'm not sure what Tri State would charge for shipping, but since they don't quote their charge online, beware as they might overcharge you in a comparative sense. As it stands, I too have also noticed in the past how they do not honor their online prices in the store unless you 'remind' them, and I find that somewhat irritating.

They have an in-store and online price, but will honor their online price in-store IF you show it to them on a piece of paper printed from their website.

just went on the tristate website and it says $113.83 plus shipping for it. i may need to have it shipped as i just traded in my wonderful but gas loving chevy trailblazer for a toyota yaris-really small car. it seems to me like this is a really large antenna-is it hard to put together and install because the son in laws aren't going to like doing it. could i possibly have them put it on top of a pole instead of mounting it on my roof? i am thinking that may be easier for them. i assume this will be able to handle going on 3 tvs two of which have an integrated tuner-what else will i need to purchase? i am sorry for so many questions but i want to be somewhat certain before i get them over here to do it and find out i need parts that i can not get while they are here. thanks so much

The 7084 is a large antenna, but you don't have to do a whole lot of assembly per se; it already comes largely pre-fabricated. The main boom is really only two different pieces, one big and one small, which you screw onto each other. It is from this boom that you need to unfold all 68 of the already-attached elements. Then you attach the included boom brace to give extra stability. The whole thing clamps to your mast from both the main boom and the boom brace. If anything, the antenna becomes a little unwieldy when fully extended, so you may benefit from having an extra set of hands and eyes on-call during installation. However, it is not as complicated as those chain-store models from ChannelMaster and the like, wherein they would give you a much smaller package that you can carry home with you but then you have to piece the thing together one by one.

thanks

just went on the tristate website and it says $113.83 plus shipping for it. i may need to have it shipped as i just traded in my wonderful but gas loving chevy trailblazer for a toyota yaris-really small car. it seems to me like this is a really large antenna-is it hard to put together and install because the son in laws aren't going to like doing it. could i possibly have them put it on top of a pole instead of mounting it on my roof? i am thinking that may be easier for them. i assume this will be able to handle going on 3 tvs two of which have an integrated tuner-what else will i need to purchase? i am sorry for so many questions but i want to be somewhat certain before i get them over here to do it and find out i need parts that i can not get while they are here. thanks so much


Here the link to Wingard 7084P manual it in PDF format this will give you an idea what include the antenna and what you will need to complete the install.

http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/1450168_HD7084P.pdf

-Willie

just went on the tristate website and it says $113.83 plus shipping for it. i may need to have it shipped as i just traded in my wonderful but gas loving chevy trailblazer for a toyota yaris-really small car. it seems to me like this is a really large antenna-is it hard to put together and install because the son in laws aren't going to like doing it. could i possibly have them put it on top of a pole instead of mounting it on my roof? i am thinking that may be easier for them. i assume this will be able to handle going on 3 tvs two of which have an integrated tuner-what else will i need to purchase? i am sorry for so many questions but i want to be somewhat certain before i get them over here to do it and find out i need parts that i can not get while they are here. thanks so much

In addition to the excellent advice Willie and Long gave above, you might need a preamplifier if you are going to split the signal 3 ways. But that's more than likely a one-man job. Still, to do it right, also order a Winegard AP-8700:

https://www.tselectronic.com/winegard/ap_preamp.html

The reason? If you split the signal 3 ways, each time you split it's a roughly 3 db loss, and one dB loss for each connector. So, with that preamp, you'll boost the signal 17 dB...and overcome the loss you would have in the 3-way splitter, the coax, and the connectors. One end goes on the antenna, with a jumper cable from the antenna to the unpowered portion of the preamplifier; the second part, the powered portion, gets plugged in and also gets mounted just *before* the 3-way splitter. So make sure wherever you put the splitter, there's an electric outlet nearby, and a place to mount the small powered preamplifier portion. If you look at the picture on that page, you'll see this.

hi guys, i checked around and newegg has the 7084 for $90 plus $12 shipping so that looks to be my best price on it. do you think i can have the son in laws attach a mast to the end of the building and mount it on that instead of the roof? it would still be higher than the peak of the house but probably easier to install it that way. i may just attach it to two televisions instead of the three and go without the amplifier for now. i am assuming this can not go in the attic of my garage, right? thanks so much for all of your help-i think i am going to order it thru newegg

ok, last email before ordering-are you guys sure this is the one i need to buy to get wbbm? nothing from a local radio shack will work for me? gonna check back in an hour to see if anyone responded and then go ahead and order one from newegg. i really wish it was smaller but no returns on outdoor antennas so i guess it is the 7084.

ok, i just checked antennaweb.org and i put in my address and i am 28.9 miles out-can i get away with the 7082 instead?

ok, i just checked antennaweb.org and i put in my address and i am 28.9 miles out-can i get away with the 7082 instead?

Lab,

I wouldn't chance it. I know it will be a bit bulkier with the 7084, but here's the thing, and "what you said": if you find the 7082 is too small, which it could be, you're out $120 or whatever. Don't risk it...the 7084 will do what you want it to do.

There is a chance it could work decently in your grage attic, but not a good chance, unfortunately. Going indoors with an antenna reduces the signal strength by 50%, minimum. If you do this, you most certainly would need an amplifier, and even then, reception is never guaranteed.

Hey Gilbert. My buddy was over yesterday, and he helped me get my antenna mast down. It only took but 5 minutes, but we had some other stuff to do, so I haven't gotten at it yet (my indoor one still gets me plenty), but as long as he helps me get it back up, I should be able to improve upon things now. Time to take a ride to Tri-State now. I'm still tempted to try the 91XG, though, just for the distance. Don't know if that would be the best choice for when WBBM and WLS move, though.

I won't need any help for the wiring, and I should be able to get it to the two, main TV rooms OK.

You know, I happened to be at Fry's last night, and the CM antennas were actually well-priced, and the 4228 was a lot lighter than a expected when I picked up the box. I still need something more directional anyway, though. I probably wouldn't even get WIFR-DT with it, because of WOCK. For anybody that's looking for a UHF CM antenna, they had one open box 4220 real cheap, a few 4221's, and a few 4228's in stock. As usual, no rotors, though. This was at the D.G. Fry's.

Hey Gilbert. My buddy was over yesterday, and he helped me get my antenna mast down. It only took but 5 minutes, but we had some other stuff to do, so I haven't gotten at it yet (my indoor one still gets me plenty), but as long as he helps me get it back up, I should be able to improve upon things now. Time to take a ride to Tri-State now. I'm still tempted to try the 91XG, though, just for the distance. Don't know if that would be the best choice for when WBBM and WLS move, though.

You surely won't get WBBM or WLS in 2009 with that thing....not at that distance. Don't forget the rotor! I think you're going to find how directional the 8200P is, but just how good it is. I'm especially curious if you can null out WTVO-TV analog and get WYIN, and also get WWTO-DT from Ottawa over WMVT-TV.

I won't need any help for the wiring, and I should be able to get it to the two, main TV rooms OK.

You know, I happened to be at Fry's last night, and the CM antennas were actually well-priced, and the 4228 was a lot lighter than a expected when I picked up the box. I still need something more directional anyway, though. I probably wouldn't even get WIFR-DT with it, because of WOCK. For anybody that's looking for a UHF CM antenna, they had one open box 4220 real cheap, a few 4221's, and a few 4228's in stock. As usual, no rotors, though. This was at the D.G. Fry's.

Last I saw, they had a TON of 4228's, no 4221's or 4220's, so it sounds like the 4228s are selling, and the others. Anyway, I bet you will lock WIFR-DT, because the angle of WOCK is not 180 degrees from where you are. And I also bet you can lock WIFR with the 8200P. And once the Chicago analogs shut off, you should frequently receive the Madison digitals.

Hey Gilbert. My buddy was over yesterday, and he helped me get my antenna mast down. It only took but 5 minutes, but we had some other stuff to do, so I haven't gotten at it yet (my indoor one still gets me plenty), but as long as he helps me get it back up, I should be able to improve upon things now. Time to take a ride to Tri-State now. I'm still tempted to try the 91XG, though, just for the distance. Don't know if that would be the best choice for when WBBM and WLS move, though.

I won't need any help for the wiring, and I should be able to get it to the two, main TV rooms OK.

You know, I happened to be at Fry's last night, and the CM antennas were actually well-priced, and the 4228 was a lot lighter than a expected when I picked up the box. I still need something more directional anyway, though. I probably wouldn't even get WIFR-DT with it, because of WOCK. For anybody that's looking for a UHF CM antenna, they had one open box 4220 real cheap, a few 4221's, and a few 4228's in stock. As usual, no rotors, though. This was at the D.G. Fry's.


Ramm,

I would agree with Gilbert on the WBBM and WLS with the XG91 antenna after 2-09, If my memory serve me right the XG91 is best at 16-69 and nothing for the VHF hi/low. but if you go with the XG91 then I would add Wingard ya-1713 VHF-Hi antenna to the mast then you will have a good set up, both would be a very lightweight set up.

The 4228 is still at 15 pounds may not to be bad but wait until you get it on a 5-10 ft mast and get in the rotor. :eek:

How much was Fry's asking for the CM 4220?

-Willie

So I'm finally getting around to finishing installing the 8200 on my roof. (Ran out of coax connectors over the weekend). Several neighbors have already commented about the size of this monster. :D I have one run going along the roof down to the first floor, and a second run that'll be going into the attic for the second floor. Main TV will be downstairs, so that's where the amp will be located. Now do I place the outside portion of the amp before I split the signal, or after I split the signal? Thought I remembered reading somewhere to amplify before splitting the signal.

Also, does anyone know where to buy a compass? I've been looking around and can't find any stores that carry them.

I live in the top floor of a five-story apartment building in Des Plaines (about 17 miles northwest of downtown). From my apartment, the city is south east, however, the apartment is on the north west corner of the building.

I'm using this Terk indoor HD antenna (http://www.amazon.com/Terk-Technology-HDTVi-Indoor-Antenna/dp/B0001FV36E/) and a pcHDTV HD-5500 (http://www.pchdtv.com/hd_5500.html) to record OTA HD with MythTV (http://mythtv.org/).

I'm currently fighting the most with Fox (WFLD). For example, last week I recorded "The Simpsons" and "The Family Guy". "The Simpsons" was perfect; "The Family Guy" was too blocky and choppy to even try and watch. This week, I tried to record the same two shows, and even "The Simpsons" became unwatchable half-way through. I didn't even try to watch "The Family Guy".

According to "dtvsignal" (a program from the pcHDTV dvb-atsc-tools package), Fox signal strength is in the 72 to 77 range.

Compare that to NBC, which is in the 70 to 75 range; but the recording of last week's "The Office" was nearly perfect: there were several hard (three to four second) pauses, but no blockiness or choppiness.

I'm trying to decide if I should get a better antenna, get an amplifier, or just give up (and go with QAM over cable), since there's too much out of my control in the building itself.

Any ideas or suggestions are much appreciated!

Thanks,
Matt

So I'm finally getting around to finishing installing the 8200 on my roof. (Ran out of coax connectors over the weekend). Several neighbors have already commented about the size of this monster. :D I have one run going along the roof down to the first floor, and a second run that'll be going into the attic for the second floor. Main TV will be downstairs, so that's where the amp will be located. Now do I place the outside portion of the amp before I split the signal, or after I split the signal? Thought I remembered reading somewhere to amplify before splitting the signal.

Both pieces of the preamplifier should be before the split. The non-powered
part goes as close to the antenna as possible (preferably mounted on the antenna); the powered part as close to the split as possible, but before it, not after.

Also, does anyone know where to buy a compass? I've been looking around and can't find any stores that carry them.[/QUOTE]

There's one in your car, more than likely, but I highly recommend you don't bring it up to the roof. :D OK, seriously...an outdoor store such as The North Face will have it, as will most sporting goods stores.

Hey guys the tube is gone on 9.2. Any idea what will replace it... I hope WGN decides to go into full blown hd mode and gets rid of 9.2. Now if we can only get WTTW to do the same :)

Oh, we are lamenting the loss of the Tube. That channel was on for hours every day at our house.

I live in the top floor of a five-story apartment building in Des Plaines (about 17 miles northwest of downtown). From my apartment, the city is south east, however, the apartment is on the north west corner of the building.

I'm using this Terk indoor HD antenna (http://www.amazon.com/Terk-Technology-HDTVi-Indoor-Antenna/dp/B0001FV36E/) and a pcHDTV HD-5500 (http://www.pchdtv.com/hd_5500.html) to record OTA HD with MythTV (http://mythtv.org/).

I'm currently fighting the most with Fox (WFLD). For example, last week I recorded "The Simpsons" and "The Family Guy". "The Simpsons" was perfect; "The Family Guy" was too blocky and choppy to even try and watch. This week, I tried to record the same two shows, and even "The Simpsons" became unwatchable half-way through. I didn't even try to watch "The Family Guy".

According to "dtvsignal" (a program from the pcHDTV dvb-atsc-tools package), Fox signal strength is in the 72 to 77 range.

Compare that to NBC, which is in the 70 to 75 range; but the recording of last week's "The Office" was nearly perfect: there were several hard (three to four second) pauses, but no blockiness or choppiness.

I'm trying to decide if I should get a better antenna, get an amplifier, or just give up (and go with QAM over cable), since there's too much out of my control in the building itself.

Any ideas or suggestions are much appreciated!

Thanks,
Matt

Matt,

I had that same antenna and returned it; it stunk. I got the Silver Sensor, which looks the same but works MUCH better, and I'm in Du Page County, 32 miles west/southwest of the city, on the 2nd floor of a 3-story apt. building with my unit facing southwest.

I'm thinking about getting an outdoor antenna like the Stealth and putting it in a bedroom that's out of site to try and pull in WBBM Channel 2 and one or two other hard to get stations. Other than that, the Silver Sensor is much better.

I had that same antenna and returned it; it stunk. I got the Silver Sensor, which looks the same but works MUCH better, and I'm in Du Page County, 32 miles west/southwest of the city, on the 2nd floor of a 3-story apt. building with my unit facing southwest.

I'm thinking about getting an outdoor antenna like the Stealth and putting it in a bedroom that's out of site to try and pull in WBBM Channel 2 and one or two other hard to get stations. Other than that, the Silver Sensor is much better.

Are you talking about the ZHDTV1 by Zenith (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=ZHDTV1)?

It's not terribly expensive; I think it's worth a try.

Thanks!
Matt

Actually, I got the Philips brand Silver Sensor, which is half that price.

BTW, today I got in the CM3010 antenna from Solid Signal. That may be the last time I ever deal with them. The box was crushed, and when I opened it, several of the antenna's wings were bent WAY out of shape, one looked like a pretzel twist! This thing was destroyed! :mad:

And the invoice says if I return a damaged item I'll be subject to a 15% restocking fee! What the hell is THAT?!? This thing ought not to even be returned; it's in such bad shape I ought to throw it in the trash right now.

Actually, I got the Philips brand Silver Sensor, which is half that price.

BTW, today I got in the CM3010 antenna from Solid Signal. That may be the last time I ever deal with them. The box was crushed, and when I opened it, several of the antenna's wings were bent WAY out of shape, one looked like a pretzel twist! This thing was destroyed! :mad:

And the invoice says if I return a damaged item I'll be subject to a 15% restocking fee! What the hell is THAT?!? This thing ought not to even be returned; it's in such bad shape I ought to throw it in the trash right now.

That's probably not Solid Signal's fault but the shipper. Was it UPS? I personally think UPS has a box crusher installed on the conveyor belt at each warehouse. I have _never_ gotten a package shipped UPS that didn't have some part of the box smashed in :-(

Actually, I got the Philips brand Silver Sensor, which is half that price.

BTW, today I got in the CM3010 antenna from Solid Signal. That may be the last time I ever deal with them. The box was crushed, and when I opened it, several of the antenna's wings were bent WAY out of shape, one looked like a pretzel twist! This thing was destroyed! :mad:

And the invoice says if I return a damaged item I'll be subject to a 15% restocking fee! What the hell is THAT?!? This thing ought not to even be returned; it's in such bad shape I ought to throw it in the trash right now.

Give Solidsignal a call. UPS should be paying for that antenna.

Give Solidsignal a call. UPS should be paying for that antenna.

Absolutely agree. Solid Signal won't accept things YOU damage, but if it CAME damaged, call them. UPS screwed up, not Solid Signal.

Are you talking about the ZHDTV1 by Zenith (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=ZHDTV1)?

It's not terribly expensive; I think it's worth a try.

Thanks!
Matt

Hi Matt,

Yes, except there's an open box one for $26. Grab it!

And the invoice says if I return a damaged item I'll be subject to a 15% restocking fee! What the hell is THAT?!? This thing ought not to even be returned; it's in such bad shape I ought to throw it in the trash right now.No, no no, Vader: It could be used as a decorative piece of art.

It looks like WYCC has made another change: WYCC-TV 20 analog appears to be getting it's video/audio feed from WYCC-DT now. Notice the slight delay in video/audio on the analog side; last week, before the equipment switch, it was just the opposite. And now, it is the way it should be! So the analog looks better because the digital looks good. So it looks like the engineers are confident in the new equipment. And I bet 20-2 and 20-3 get lit up soon. Oh, and that "Mega SD" that they're hinting at on 20-3...it's an over-the-air spanish channel in Miami that goes live on 10/17 nationwide, and DirecTV said it will add it on 10/17 to their lineup. They produce their own programming, geared for a young audience. Let's see if that's what they put on there.

Also, MHZ Worldview says they have launched on WYCC-DT, but a quick check at 8 PM tonight shows otherwise. I'm assuming it's any day now.
Oh, wanna see their new HD control room and HD production facility? About :40 in to the video, you can see them showing something in widescreen, at least:

http://www.wycc.tv/viewarticle.aspx?article=64

I loved the Tube too, but first and foremost they never ran enough commercials to begin with, and infact they ran without any whatsoever for the first several months. Besides, one commercial every 15 minutes for some mail order junk just ain't gonna cut it. As much as I hate ads, they really do serve the most vital of functions in supporting the very things we often take for granted. The Tube was also not an outlet for new material, and this would have been another key to long term viability, both in terms of exposure and the reciprocal funding that comes along with it. The push over HD subchannels was a bold technological statement as well, but few in the the general public actually watches digital TV over the airwaves. It wasn't a bad idea at least in thought, but relatively speaking nobody knew about it, and the makers didn't iron out the funding issue from the get-go. You somehow knew it was doomed.

WGN is already 1080i; they are already at 'full' HD. They could feasibly increase their band width on the main channel if 9-2 is eliminated.
However, note that WMAQ does fine at 1080i with one subchannel, and WYCC now has a whopping two subchannels with their brand new 1080i setup, so just having the subchannel alone ought not diminish things very much. I still think that WGN's deficits have more to do with encoding than anything else. It remains to be seen, but I don't see the quality of their main channel changing anytime soon.

As for WTTW... 720p isn't the best, especially the cut-rate kind, but I would never advocate anyone getting rid of programming options just for desire of sheer volume. I will still root for more diverse and engaging options even if it means a slight quality deficit with regard to what is already there. (*Note to those at WYCC - I was hoping you'd be smart enough to have PBS kids land on 20-3, but I guess that ain't gonna happen. Shame on you WTTW. Besides - we already have V-Me... And while I'm at it, I would also advocate the return of ABC World News Now to 7-3, but I really do know that ain't gonna happen...)

Hey guys the tube is gone on 9.2. Any idea what will replace it... I hope WGN decides to go into full blown hd mode and gets rid of 9.2. Now if we can only get WTTW to do the same :)

I will miss them. They had a great mix of music, IMO. Can't blame their demise on OTA DTV distribution though. They were carried by Comcast, in this market anyway. It was pretty cool having a music video channel available OTA. I love watching music videos and I know lots of people that watched the TUBE. So why couldn't they make a go of it?

The Tube never had a viable business plan. That's why it didn't work.

...New and/or relevant material should be implemented to create interest...
Businesses should then want to advertise on the channel because of the material that creates this interest, so that they can reach their so-called demographic...
...Channel can then sell ad time which it in turn uses to finance their day to day operations and turn a profit....

It's the same model that TV has used since the beginning to make our very OTA experience viable, and the Tube did not think any of that through. All in all it was a nice concept in thought, but in the end it was thoughtlessly executed and never fully realized.

I don't really consider showing the same things over and over and over again, which is what most of our subchannels do, much of an alternative or option.

Maybe if the subs were really innovative or worthwhile, I wouldn't mind a small hit on the quality of the main channels - but as it is now (especially without The Tube), there isn't enough of anything on the subs to make it worth the degradation as far as I'm concerned. Small children might be enthralled with QUBO for awhile, but I would think that most of them would even eventually tire of the same, old repeats (actually, PAX doesn't matter so much, unless they'd go to higher-rez on the main channel - which I would be totally in favor of. Maybe just keep QUBO as a sub).

I would really like to see OTA stay the "best kept secret" that it is, for as long as possible. Especially the superior HD.

11-2 doesn't count of course, but 7-2 is just stuff re-run from the main channel. Anyone with a cheap recording device can just set it to record the shows from 7-1 if they're not able to watch them live when they first air. It's a minor hassle to endure to have better picture quality on WLS' HD channel. ABC World News would be better than what's on there now, but they'd be showing the same thing over and over all day long on that, too.

And honestly - we only really need one, good weather channel.

I'm tired of all the lame, watered-down, overly-repetitive channels on cable/satellite - why ruin the picture quality of the main, OTA channels the same way?

I don't really consider showing the same things over and over and over again, which is what most of our subchannels do, much of an alternative or option.

Maybe if they were really worthwhile, I wouldn't mind a small hit on the quality of the main channels, but as it is now (especially without The Tube), there isn't enough of anything on the subs to make it worth the degradation. Small children might be enthralled with QUBO for awhile, but I would think that most of them would even eventually tire of the same, old repeats.

11-2 doesn't count of course, but 7-2 is just stuff re-run from the main channel. Anyone with a cheap recording device can just set it to record the shows from 7-1, if they're not able to watch them live when they first air. It's a minor hassle to endure to have better picture quality on their HD channel.

And honestly - we only really need one, good weather channel.

I agree that subchannels need to be used better. 7.3 is OK, 7.2 really needs to do something. 5.2 is good, 9.2 was very good if you like that kind of music.
11-1 is great, 11-2 is only there now so that distant cable companies can get them for Rockford and Belvidere (and elsewhere), 11-3...ehhh, not my cup of tea, and 11-4...lots of dubbed over stuff that's been around a while.

The best use of subs locally could very well be PBS and WCIU-DT. 26-2 is "Me-TV", and 26-3 serves the ethnic population. 38-2 is great for kids (they rarely tire of stuff at that age---they can't remember programs like we can), I like 38-4, but 38.3 are a lot of health infomercials with some stuff that I don't care to watch anyway, and 38-1 is an infomercial car accident on the freeway---I stop just momentarily to see what flab-blaster I need to buy now. :D

I agree with Long---if 7.2 was ABC News Now, I'd park on that channel. When it was ABCNN, I did park on it. Their Asian tsunami coverage, complemented by the BBC, 4 years ago was phenomenal. And just after that, they signed off.

In another year or two when we're all digital, it will help the cause of good quality subchannels. Right now, the only viable way to have a profitable subchannel is cable rights. And that costs money.

But since the entire cable industry has committed to carrying every PBS subchannel, watch for WYCC's subs, when they sign on, to be on cable very soon thereafter.

Oh, and welcome back, WSNS-DT. Speaking of spanish stations, over on the Mexican HDTV thread, those soccer matches you see on 60/66 are being shown in HD, as well as those on the low-power analog channel 13 (Azteca America). There's a lot of HD coming from Mexico these days...I wonder when our stations that se habla espanol will go HD?

As one person put it on the Mexican TV board: he likes soccer so much, he doesn't care if the commentary is in HD. They shout player names, you know them, you can make up your own commentary. And even when the play is just crawling along, the announcers make it sound like something big is happening or about to, which makes it fun. :D

I noticed out here in DeKalb that Comcast has a great picture of Rockford's WREX-TV NBC channel 13 on their analog system. When I subscribed, it was always somewhat snowy, very annoying since they have a 400'-ish tower and only used a small UHF antenna of all things to pick it up. Today, I noticed it was clear...and I noticed a semitransparent letter "D" at the bottom left. Yep, they're taking the 13-1 feed and cropping it!

Oh, and Ramm, we need 3 good weather channels. :D
I wish there was one that just shows radar; 7.3 does it during major events with NOAA All-Hazards Radio audio.

I forgot about WWME-DT, but like 11-2, I wasn't really referring to it. I also wasn't thinking about 26-3, which shows varied, topical, ethnic programming.

38-4 is OK, even though I don't watch it, but they should just go back to showing that stuff during the overnight hours. It's just not the kind of stuff that most people put on during the daylight hours - even most religious people. Probably even extremely religious people - not if they have kids in the house that can get their hands on the remote. I do like the way they use jazz music for some of the videos now. At least it breaks the sameness.

You know what would really be good to do with 9-2? Put CLTV on there. It's only updated, what - 3 times a day (I haven't had cable in 3 years, so I don't know), but it's still interesting. I used to like it because they focused more on the suburbs than the major affiliates did (which is where I, and a good portion of the metro area's population live or have always lived). I get burned out constantly getting inundated with gangs, murders, rapes, robberies, drive-by killings of innocent children, fires, and politics as usual in the inner city every darned day. (Doesn't ANYTHING good ever happen there?)

As an average person, with just the average amount of interest in the weather, I think one, good weather channel and one radar channel would do me just fine. I know that the radar one would take up very minimal bandwith.

You know what would really be good to do with 9-2? Put CLTV on there.

I'm with you, but since the Trib owns it and Comcast has a stake in it's exclusivity to it's company,
it isn't gonna happen. Unless somehow Comcast/Tribune decides giving away their channel is a good thing. Heh, heh, heh...yeeeeah, right! :D

Sorry, I think it'd be fantastic to do. But word I had from WGN a few years ago when I made the suggestion was "no way" as a result of the above.

Over the past few days I have been dealing with a professional installer who has switched direction of my antenna a couple of times. Friday night he directed my antenna further to the west and I was able to pick up WBBM but lost almost everything else. By Sunday night/Monday morning WBBM 2 dtv was cutting out again so he moved the antenna back to its origional location to regain everything else.

A co-worker of mine had issues in receiving any channels Friday evening from 65 miles.

Just checking to see if this past weekend the signals were mixed and to see if vhf is as directional as uhf. Checking to see if direction is critical to improve my WBBM vhf signal or if this Friday/Sat was just a fluke.

I have an option of installing a larger amp AP 8275 ($100) I now have a AP 8780 or a rotor ($160).

I want to resolve whether if equipment and position can improve my signal or would I be throwing money into the wind. I am now $575 into this installation



Thanks

Over the past few days I have been dealing with a professional installer who has switched direction of my antenna a couple of times. Friday night he directed my antenna further to the west and I was able to pick up WBBM but lost almost everything else. By Sunday night/Monday morning WBBM 2 dtv was cutting out again so he moved the antenna back to its origional location to regain everything else.

A co-worker of mine had issues in receiving any channels Friday evening from 65 miles.

Just checking to see if this past weekend the signals were mixed and to see if vhf is as directional as uhf. Checking to see if direction is critical to improve my WBBM vhf signal or if this Friday/Sat was just a fluke.

I have an option of installing a larger amp AP 8275 ($100) I now have a AP 8780 or a rotor ($160).

I want to resolve whether if equipment and position can improve my signal or would I be throwing money into the wind. I am now $575 into this installation



Thanks
Are you aware that there's a 100Kw analog in Champaign on Ch 3 - 64 miles south of you ?? Chicago is 59mi north, which means you get about equal signal from both - and reliably getting WBBM-DT is likely hopeless in your situation - sorry.
Antennas, even real good ones, don't have great rejection off the back at Ch 3 so it will likely be hard to kill Champaign coming in from the back. (I'll bet you see Champaign on Ch 3, with an analog set (the snow is the digital Chicago signal. You need to see all snow to get the digital signal) When your guy turned the antenna, he likely put Champaign at 90 degrees - which is where the maximum rejection occurrs, that's why you saw Chicago.
Sorry to bring you this bad news....

Larry Davis
WBBM-TV/DT Transmitter

I'm with you, but since Comcast owns it and the Trib has a part stake in it,
it isn't gonna happen... Really?

You're much more knowledgeable than I, but I thought it was the other way around, the Tribune Company owns it but Comcast has an exclusive contractual agreement to distribute it. They still refer to themselves as the "Tribune Company's CLTV."

If that is true, they might put it on a subchannel after the contract runs out. Assuming the Tribune Company hasn't been forced to spin off their whole broadcasting empire before then.

Really?

You're much more knowledgeable than I, but I thought it was the other way around, the Tribune Company owns it but Comcast has an exclusive contractual agreement to distribute it. They still refer to themselves as the "Tribune Company's CLTV."

If that is true, they might put it on a subchannel after the contract runs out. Assuming the Tribune Company hasn't been forced to spin off their whole broadcasting empire before then.

You are correct.

> The push over HD subchannels was a bold technological statement as well, but few in the the general public actually watches digital TV over the airwaves.

We do. The Tube was the primary reason we got our HD tuner. We'd had an HD-ready widescreen projection television for about six years but never made the move - until my sister quit her cable and got a new set with the HD tuner and started raving about The Tube. We watched it at her place and ran out to buy our tuner right after.

Of course we have seen many benefits to OTA HD, but The Tube was the reason we finally got the HD tuner.

You are correct.

HVS is correct. :) I got it backwards, my bad. I will do the switcheroo to the post now. Still, I don't think it would be on 9-2. If it ever would be, I would be jumping for joy...

For people that live in downtown Chicago (or just in the city),
I need some help.

I've been reading the hdtvantennalabs.com guides & antenna reviews,
and various reviews online and what I can find here and other forums.

From antennaweb.org,
I am 0.38 miles from the Sears Tower,
and 1.86 miles from the Hancock center (CBS).

Being so close, I read here to use quad-sheilded RG6.
I am not worried about receiving all of the Sears Tower stations,
however I need some help getting CBS.

Which antenna is best?

For those who want to watch the Cubs playoffs in HD -- Comcast just started carrying TBS-HD (sadly, SD stuff on that channel is in Stretch-O-Vision.)

. . . (from #968, above)

Outdoor or Indoor are both OK
but Outdoor (mounted on the 1st story balcony railing)
would have to be somewhat compact to fit (it's just a step balcony- half a foot).

Indoor: Winegard SS-3000 (http://www.hdtvantennalabs.com/reviews/Winegard-SS-3000-reviews.html)aka Terk HDTVlp (http://www.hdtvantennalabs.com/reviews/Terk-HDTVlp-reviews.html)
Indoor: Terk HDTVa (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductReview.aspx?Item=N82E16882145017) : Alt (http://www.hdtvantennalabs.com/reviews/Terk-HDTVa-reviews.html)
Outdoor: Winegard SS-2000 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductReview.aspx?Item=N82E16882172011)("SquareShooter") : Alt (http://www.hdtvantennalabs.com/reviews/Winegard-SS-2000-reviews.html) , aka Terk HDTVs (http://www.hdtvantennalabs.com/reviews/Terk-HDTVs-reviews.html) : Alt (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882145009)
Outdoor: Terk HDTVo (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882145008) : Alt (http://www.hdtvantennalabs.com/reviews/Terk-HDTVo-reviews.html)
Outdoor: Channel Master CM-3010 (http://www.hdtvantennalabs.com/reviews/ChannelMaster-CM3010-reviews.html) ("stealthmaster")

The reason I ask is because so many reviews show better performance
with these antennas from 50-70 miles away, than within 10 miles (bad).

mudba (using two antennas similar to the HDTVa with quad-shielded RG6)
You are about the same vicinity to the towers as me,
except I am not between the towers; they are both in the same direction.
You: 1.2 miles to Sears Tower
Me: 0.38 miles
You: 0.6 miles to John Hancock (CBS)
Me: 1.86 miles
-> Did you ever get WGN to come in?

Indoor would provide more flexibility for "tuning" in its placement,
but if an outdoor can get every channel listed more easily . . .

Man, I am not having a great week. I guess this will teach me to do an entirely new installation from the ground up the next time around... ended up using the existing house mast to mount the 7084 but it must've been older than I thought, and the 7084 is somewhat bigger than anything else placed up there. Today the mast somehow bent 90 degrees during a moderate wind gust, and now the antenna boom is aimed skyward... I'm not about to climb back up there until things settle down, but now I'm kind of wondering whether I'll simply need to get a new mast, or if the antenna itself is also irreparably damaged... Are the Winegard boom antennas flexible enough for me to bend the elements back and still survive? The thing is resting on the roof not quite at a 90 degree angle, and it appears that some uneven weight is now placed upon the back (biggest) elements of one side. The cheap-o side in me figures that since the elements had to be bent out from the boom to begin with, they might readily collapse back in that direction even with natural force applied, but the realistic side of me wonders whether I have a fighting chance. Any thoughts?

Joe.Kuta: Howabout the $25 RadioShack 15-1868? Its dipoles are better for the money than any other indoor antenna I've tried.

Man, I am not having a great week. I guess this will teach me to do an entirely new installation from the ground up the next time around... ended up using the existing house mast to mount the 7084 but it must've been older than I thought, and the 7084 is somewhat bigger than anything else placed up there. Today the mast somehow bent 90 degrees during a moderate wind gust, and now the antenna boom is aimed skyward... I'm not about to climb back up there until things settle down, but now I'm kind of wondering whether I'll simply need to get a new mast, or if the antenna itself is also irreparably damaged... Are the Winegard boom antennas flexible enough for me to bend the elements back and still survive? The thing is resting on the roof not quite at a 90 degree angle, and it appears that some uneven weight is now placed upon the back (biggest) elements of one side. The cheap-o side in me figures that since the elements had to be bent out from the boom to begin with, they might readily collapse back in that direction even with natural force applied, but the realistic side of me wonders whether I have a fighting chance. Any thoughts?

Had it happen to me using the same antenna AND a new mast on a 30' tower. One week after a friend and I put it on, whammo! 60 MPH winds, he loses branches on his trees, the antenna mast bends, and the antenna lands on the roof of his house.

It depends on how hard it made impact, but chances are most of them will be OK. However, they may or may not snap and lock back into place, so get some crazy glue ready, just in case.

To others: Always, always use a new mast for a new antenna. And, I might recommend: Don't use the ones you get at the stores. Instead, buy a 1 1/4" diameter plumbing pipe; it's thicker and it's sturdier. That's what I used after my friend had his incident. Guess what: weeks later, he had
an 80+ MPH wind...lost a full tree and half of two others on his property...every rod on the antenna was pushed back to a closed position except for the UHF "fins"...but his antenna and 30' tower was fine.

URL="http://www.hdtvantennalabs.com/reviews/Winegard-SS-3000-reviews.html"]Winegard SS-3000 [/URL]aka Terk HDTVlp (http://www.hdtvantennalabs.com/reviews/Terk-HDTVlp-reviews.html)
Indoor: Terk HDTVa (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductReview.aspx?Item=N82E16882145017) : Alt (http://www.hdtvantennalabs.com/reviews/Terk-HDTVa-reviews.html)
Outdoor: Winegard SS-2000 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductReview.aspx?Item=N82E16882172011)("SquareShooter") : Alt (http://www.hdtvantennalabs.com/reviews/Winegard-SS-2000-reviews.html) , aka Terk HDTVs (http://www.hdtvantennalabs.com/reviews/Terk-HDTVs-reviews.html) : Alt (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882145009)
Outdoor: Terk HDTVo (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882145008) : Alt (http://www.hdtvantennalabs.com/reviews/Terk-HDTVo-reviews.html)
Outdoor: Channel Master CM-3010 (http://www.hdtvantennalabs.com/reviews/ChannelMaster-CM3010-reviews.html) ("stealthmaster")For indoor, I'd go with the Terk HDTVi before the amped HDTVa (unless you can use the HDTVa without the amp, which I think might be possible). You'd need those rabbit ears to get WBBM.

For outdoor, out of those choices, I'd take the Stealthtenna. I was able to get WBBM-DT from 40 miles out with that thing and a CM7777 preamp. I found that it's also a very good antenna for analog. Surprisingly good. It's a lot better antenna than you would think just by looking at it. The only thing is that it's very bi-directional (especially for digital), so you might have multipath problems with it. Maybe not, though.

I'm not sure how wide the VHF element is on the HDTVo, but it's probably not wide enough. At any rate, I've heard that's it's just not so great of an antenna in general. Also, forget about using the Square Shooter for low-VHF.

Joe.Kuta: Howabout the $25 RadioShack 15-1868? Its dipoles are better for the money than any other indoor antenna I've tried.
It looks simple, which is usually better. I wonder if I need something directional though,
with all the shadows & reflections 2006 feet from sears tower grand transmission?
For indoor, I'd go with the Terk HDTVi before the amped HDTVa (unless you can use the HDTVa without the amp, which I think might be possible).

For outdoor, out of those choices, I'd take the Stealthtenna. I was able to get WBBM-DT from 40 miles out with that thing and a CM7777 preamp. I found that it's also a very good antenna for analog. Surprisingly good. It's a lot better antenna than you would think just by looking at it. The only thing is that it's totally bi-directional, so you might have multipath problems with it. Maybe not, though.

I'm not sure how wide the VHF element is on the HDTVo, but it's probably not wide enough. Plus, I've heard that's it's just not so great of an antenna in general. Also, forget about using the Square Shooter for low-VHF.OK, so scrap the expensive indoor antennas.

More reading!

Actually, the Terk HDTVi is a very directional antenna. It might work very well for you at your distance.

The UHF part is a very directional design, and the rabbit ears are going to only be used for one channel, so once you have them set right you can just leave them that way.

Jusy buy it from somewhere you can easily return it, like Best Buy.

The RS model mike suggested would also definitely be worth a try.

If that is true, they might put it on a subchannel after the contract runs out. Assuming the Tribune Company hasn't been forced to spin off their whole broadcasting empire before then.If they end up breaking it up to sell it, there's the possibility that the Cub games could end up even not being on WGN anymore.

Actually, the Terk HDTVi is a very directional antenna. It might work very well for you at your distance.

The UHF part is a very directional design, and the rabbit ears are going to only be used for one channel, so once you have them set right you can just leave them that way.

Jusy buy it from somewhere you can easily return it, like Best Buy.

The RS model mike suggested would also definitely be worth a try.

Radio Shack sells both, and, the best answer will come from trying them.
I'll get both, and return hopefully at most one.

As long as we are talking simple design,
would the Terk TV5 (w/o amplification) be swell?

http://www.Ku74.net/terktvfive.jpg

PS I have about two weeks to consider different antennas.
that's when the hdtv is going to arrive. i might not make it.

I think you will say the 25" is not wide enough for Ch2 VHF (CBS), yes?

I think you will say the 25" is not wide enough for Ch2 VHF (CBS), yes?

Quarter wavelength for WBBM is around 52". The closer you get, the better the reception. (You don't even want to know the full wave :eek:)

Quarter wavelength for WBBM is around 52". The closer you get, the better the reception. (You don't even want to know the full wave :eek:)
Is it 208" ? :p

I am guessing with these models' 39" rabbit ears,
they will spread near WBBM's quarter wavelength.

I might get the HDTVa and hold onto the inline 'amp' for a friend in the suburbs,
if he ends up using the Terk and me the Radio Shack. (this looks to be the only difference b/t the HDTVi)

hmmmmmm

Plumbers pipe, eh? Sounds like a good idea and I never thought of that before. Hopefully it doesn't corrode (or at least quickly).

While I'm at it, I'm also thinking of addressing the issue of the mount as well. The old mount was on a chimney, and the mast bent right above the point of the topmost chimney bracket. My gut says that maybe the chimney would not have been a good support for such a big antenna to begin with, but I had hoped to avoid making holes in the roof for a new mount (which would also have to be re-addressed every time we needed to replace the shingles). What would you advise as a sturdy mount for that thing?

Had it happen to me using the same antenna AND a new mast on a 30' tower. One week after a friend and I put it on, whammo! 60 MPH winds, he loses branches on his trees, the antenna mast bends, and the antenna lands on the roof of his house.

It depends on how hard it made impact, but chances are most of them will be OK. However, they may or may not snap and lock back into place, so get some crazy glue ready, just in case.

To others: Always, always use a new mast for a new antenna. And, I might recommend: Don't use the ones you get at the stores. Instead, buy a 1 1/4" diameter plumbing pipe; it's thicker and it's sturdier. That's what I used after my friend had his incident. Guess what: weeks later, he had
an 80+ MPH wind...lost a full tree and half of two others on his property...every rod on the antenna was pushed back to a closed position except for the UHF "fins"...but his antenna and 30' tower was fine.

Plumbers pipe, eh? Sounds like a good idea and I never thought of that before. Hopefully it doesn't corrode (or at least quickly).


Think about it: It's designed to be wet constantly for many years.
And it is strong as all get out. I will never use the standard ones they sell at the stores, unless they are equal to that quality, or it's an attic install. If it bends at 90 degrees in the attic due to high winds, well... yikes!


While I'm at it, I'm also thinking of addressing the issue of the mount as well. The old mount was on a chimney, and the mast bent right above the point of the topmost chimney bracket. My gut says that maybe the chimney would not have been a good support for such a big antenna to begin with, but I had hoped to avoid making holes in the roof for a new mount (which would also have to be re-addressed every time we needed to replace the shingles). What would you advise as a sturdy mount for that thing?

Good gut feeling. You are right on both counts: It may not be sturdy enough to support that big of an antenna. Even though it can be a pain, I'd go with a tripod support. Yes, I know: it would need to be taken out after every re-shingle job. But, look at it this way: If you have a power screwdriver, it won't take long. And if you do it right, you can make shingles last 20 years. And that's when it's a good time to replace the antenna as well.

Is it 208" ? :p

I am guessing with these models' 39" rabbit ears,
they will spread near WBBM's quarter wavelength.

I might get the HDTVa and hold onto the inline 'amp' for a friend in the suburbs,
if he ends up using the Terk and me the Radio Shack. (this looks to be the only difference b/t the HDTVi)

hmmmmmm

Not bad. :D I smidge over 17 feet. :eek:

If they end up breaking it up to sell it, there's the possibility that the Cub games could end up even not being on WGN anymore. Yes. I might be the only person in Chicago who is sad that the Tribune Company is selling the Cubs. I miss the "good old days" when they were WGN's primary programming source, and WGN carried all the games. The CW and it's predecessor was a poor trade, IMO. It offers nothing I ever watch, but I'm too old for them, so they don't care.

I wouldn't be unhappy if WCIU started broadcasting more Cubs games, though.

are they still going to show their e/i stuff on saturday morning since 9.2 is still an operational sub?

Labnpei,

The Winegard HD7084P is the antenna you want. Yes, I know it is large. Unfortunately, you need it to get WBBM. The 7082P might be a tad bit too small to get WBBM-DT reliably at 32 miles out, and so I am erring on the side of caution here.

https://www.tselectronic.com/winegard/hd7084.html

I know this is in Mt. Prospect, but it would be cheaper to drive up there and get it. If you do that, their in-store price is higher...print out the page above is paragraph, show it to them, and they'll give you the online price. Or, you could order it and have it shipped to you. Be advised, however, that shipping will probably run $30 or more...and that may even be way too low. I don't know.

ok, i moved my philips manta 950 and set it on my dresser and i now get wbbm-how can this be? is something up with the stars that this is happening out in 60443? so maybe this antenna would work for other people who are far out like i am. its almost 30 miles to the transmitting towers from here and this thing is working. it can be put outside or inside so i think for now i will stay with it and put it on a shelf on the wall. in fact, it is on sale at menards so i may go buy another one for my living room tv for $64.

ok, i moved my philips manta 950 and set it on my dresser and i now get wbbm-how can this be? is something up with the stars that this is happening out in 60443? so maybe this antenna would work for other people who are far out like i am. its almost 30 miles to the transmitting towers from here and this thing is working. it can be put outside or inside so i think for now i will stay with it and put it on a shelf on the wall. in fact, it is on sale at menards so i may go buy another one for my living room tv for $64.

Hi Lab,

Well, before you get too excited...see if the reception holds.
Sometimes you just get lucky.

Check your signal level on WBBM with that thing; you may be locking it only at 30-40%, and I'm pretty certain it won't stay there. I once tried to fool myself into thinking I could get that station with 44" rods fully extended to 180 degrees since I did get a watchable signal at little more than 30% on several occasions with an indoor antenna on the 2nd floor - but I had to place the antenna in such an oddball position and if I moved the slightest thing in the room I lost the signal altogether. Every time I turned on the tuner, I also had to play with the antenna ever so slightly just to get the signal to lock again, and then at some point I just lost the ability to lock it altogether. This was my experience at 23 miles from downtown. Unless you live in the city and are proximal to the transmitter, you won't be able to adequately rely on a simple indoor antenna to get WBBM.

Guys -

Here's the latest on WYIN-DT -

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11792908&postcount=54.

Hi Lab,

Well, before you get too excited...see if the reception holds.
Sometimes you just get lucky.

so far so good on wbbm. i don't know how to tell you what percentage i am getting-my samsung 4676 has a signal meter and it appears to be well over halfway on it. now wttw is my lowest on that meter. it would be so nice not to have to put any huge antenna up-if i end up doing it then the rafters in the garage will have to do. i know i will lose up there but its the best i can do. i am headed to menards today to pick up some quad shield cable-maybe that will also help me with my inside antenna luck.

Finally got the 7084 re-mounted after last Tuesday's windstorm. I noticed that the rearmost element on the right was noticeably bent due to impact with the roof. It's now bent back as much as reasonably possible without having it break off, and it is straight now but at a bit of an upward slant from the center. I'm thinking that my back end resistance may have somehow been adversely affected since WGN is now breaking up every so often this morning, but all the other locals are solid. Is being in Arlington Heights still going to expose me to that interference from 19 in Madison, regardless of what I use up there?

Is being in Arlington Heights still going to expose me to that interference from 19 in Madison, regardless of what I use up there?I probably wouldn't even worry about that. The 7084 is a pretty directional antenna, and you're pretty far from Madison.

I'm further NW of you and closer, and I rarely if ever have that problem. In fact Madison is the one market I have absolutely never received anything digitally from - even with exceptional tropo/e-skip. I barely even get a faint signal on 15 analog from there (which I know is a pretty strong station). I don't believe any of their channels are particularly high-powered.

Before they upped their power, I used to have a problem with WCIU-DT on rare occasions, but no more.

The only real interference I have ever gotten here is between analog 23, Chicago (WWME) and analog 23, Rockford (WIFR), and between analog 41, Chicago (WOCH-LP) and digital 41 (WIFR-DT).

But since I started using a more directional antenna, I don't really have a problem with those, either (I don't care at all about that first combo, anyways, as long as I get the digital versions fine).

Just basing it on my results, I think you have a very good shot at Milwaukee from there (unless you have major blockage in that direction - I have a lot of trees that way - but I still get them pretty well). And other than maybe ABC and Fox from Rockford, You probably won't get much from this direction otherwise. If you do get WTVO-DT (ABC, Rockford) well, you'll probably find yourself preferring it for the HD broadcasts. It's a bit sharper than the others.

You will probably get some of the South Bend, In. stations on occasion when you're pointed at Chicago, also. I get WSBT-DT (CBS) from there every so often. Hopefully, you'll get WYIN-DT reliably from that direction, also - especially now that they will have 2 HD channels.

Trouble is, I've always had some sort of trouble with WGN digital no matter what I put up. It would weaken and start breaking up whenever the atmosphere presumably got 'funky'. The other stations remain rock solid for the most part, so I'm afraid of rotating the thing any more since I'd rather occasionally lose one station and retain all the others than have even more stations drop off the signal meter. Thing is I want to retain all the Chicago locals, but with all the clutter around me in the neighborhood, maybe it's the analog ghosting effect that's causing my digital issue. When I had a smaller unit up there and had to cut down a tree to the west, my overall signal strength went down by a third. And to aim any antenna correctly from my house, it will go straight into a huge tree which directly blocks all line of sight to my southeast. Not to mention that ours is hardly the tallest house on the block or in the area for that matter, so add in another 1000+ obstructions between us and the tower. But with something as big and as seemingly foolproof as the 7084 I would think that none of the local signals should break up AT ALL (with the exception of maybe WBBM). Maybe my thinking needs to be corrected. I simply don't know anymore.

It almost has to be a multipath problem. 19 Madison shouldn't really be causing any interference there. It doesn't affect me one iota here. If your reception normally improves when that tree loses it's leaves, then you know that's affecting you.

What are you using for a tuner? The newest Samsung ATSC tuner (the DTB-H260F) is remarkable at dealing with multipath. It might be worth a try in your situation, especially since WGN-DT means so much to you. All of my other tuners are 4th generation, and the 5th gen. Sammy was quite an improvement for me, with both multipath and holding onto channels at a much lower threshold (like Milwaukee).

Otherwise, that antenna and a decent amp should be more than enough under normal circumstances. You shouldn't have too much of a problem getting WBBM-DT, either, I would think.

Most antenna installers recommend the 7084 and the Winegard AP 8700 pre-amp out here, so that should be plenty adequate for you there. If you're using something like that, then you've pretty much done all you can on that end. Next thing I'd suggest would be to try the better tuner (if you aren't already using a similar, 5th gen. one). You can usually find them at BB and CC, and could always try it and return it if it doesn't help.

A lot of people go nuts trying every kind of setup possible (and waste a lot of money, time and effort doing it), but they often have older tuners and aren't aware of the improvements in the newest ones. I think they just automatically assume that all digital tuners are basically the same. Except for maybe the LG/Zenith's, even the 4th gen. ones are a step up from the 3rd gen. ones, as far as distance/sensitivity.

I'm still clinging to the old Samsung SIRT451 as my main tuner, and I use a lovely HDTV Wonder PC card as my backup (even worse). But even a weaker station like WJYS still holds at 60% or above with this antenna no matter what tuner I use, and I am just barely within the northern boundary of their DT viewing area. Nonetheless, while today's WGN signal level is generally holding somewhere above 80%, the meter shows little fluctations within this range - ideally it should peak closer to 90%, and there are still those occasional irritating drops to break-up level, which I did not see even as of yesterday. All the other locals except for WJYS continue to be rock solid in the 88%-94% range.

If you think that a new tuner might make a difference in this situation, maybe I'll keep that in mind the next time I go shopping for new hardware.

Since you're getting those signal strength levels, and they're generally steady, I wouldn't normally suggest a different tuner.

I'm just suggesting it for the WGN problem, because it's undoubtedly a multipath issue, and the 5th gen. tuners are very noticably improved with that. (But as a side benefit, you may even pick up a few, other stations, too. You might even prefer it's guide to the SIR-T451's - you can even set recordings through it.)

I wonder - could you be getting too strong of a signal? Mine are generally in the same range out here, but I don't have that problem. I really don't have any dropouts with any of the Chicago channels, and I even have a couple of trees in the distance in that direction to go through. (Actually, most of 'em are in the 95 - 98% range, other than WBBM-DT of course, but maybe my amp is stronger. I am pretty high up, also.)

My experience has found that a preamp is still needed over here in order to stabilize some of the stations, many of which would go down by almost a third in signal level without one. I tried the Winegard 8275 amp once and the signal completely blanked out with it attached, so I'm pretty sure that overloaded it. The 8700 seems to work well here, though, and it compensates for my splitter set-up. I can usually get the main local DT's to lock at 10 bars on the Samsung for hours on end (and from 85-94% on the PC card), and WGN can often maintain that level, but not always... It's got to be multipath, because otherwise I have all the strong local analogs nearly crystal clear and almost better than an analog cable TV feed, with the exception of some ambient specks on 2 and a bit less on 5, and there may be faint ghosting on some of the UHF analogs which I cannot seem to fully shake - and I mean faint, since you barely notice it unless you are looking for it and you stare at the far left of the screen. I can tell from the get-go that the Winegard unit is really combative against ghosting, since its analog reception is that much improved from anything else I've ever used before, so perhaps I have done all that I can do on that end... (sigh).

I have heard about the new Samsung STB tuner, but I've also encountered mixed reviews on the thing. If you think that it presents a significant difference over the previous model, then maybe I'll look into trying it down the road. However, my gut also says that once I buy a 5th gen, the 6th gen will appear and be that much better etc etc. I just can't win.

Hi Long,

My experience has found that a preamp is still needed over here in order to stabilize some of the stations, many of which would go down by almost a third in signal level without one. I tried the Winegard 8275 amp once and the signal completely blanked out with it attached, so I'm pretty sure that overloaded it.


Yep!

The 8700 seems to work well here, though, and it compensates for my splitter set-up. I can usually get the main local DT's to lock at 10 bars on the Samsung for hours on end (and from 85-94% on the PC card), and WGN can often maintain that level, but not always... It's got to be multipath, because otherwise I have all the strong local analogs nearly crystal clear and almost better than an analog cable TV feed, with the exception of some ambient specks on 2 and a bit less on 5, and there may be faint ghosting on some of the UHF analogs which I cannot seem to fully shake - and I mean faint, since you barely notice it unless you are looking for it and you stare at the far left of the screen. I can tell from the get-go that the Winegard unit is really combative against ghosting, since its analog reception is that much improved from anything else I've ever used before, so perhaps I have done all that I can do on that end... (sigh).

I have heard about the new Samsung STB tuner, but I've also encountered mixed reviews on the thing. If you think that it presents a significant difference over the previous model, then maybe I'll look into trying it down the road. However, my gut also says that once I buy a 5th gen, the 6th gen will appear and be that much better etc etc. I just can't win.

Well, the 6th gen is out from LG, but no set top boxes (STB's) yet. The difference between the fourth and fifth generation is slightly to somewhat improved reception, and vastly improved multipath interference. The difference between 5th and 6th gen tuners is nearly no improvement in multipath, but a 3-4 dB increase in signal strength.

As for your WGN, here's a suggestion: take off the amplifier, or unplug it, taking your reception down a notch. If WGN is 90%+, you're overloading it. Ramm is dead on in everything he's said so far...at 690 kw on channel 19, WGN is a blowtorch. A farmer using the same antenna you have can occasionally null the signal from DTV 19 in Madison less than 5 miles away from the tower and get WGN-DT!!! On my third generation tuner, they literally peg my signal meter with my attic antenna on the far northwest side of DeKalb, low inbetween a creek and the Kishwaukee River. And, the tuners these days also handle overload better with automatic gain controls.

If it is multipath, try analog channel 20. If you see faint ghosts or worse,
it's that. Strong signal plus minor multipath causes major problems for 4th gen tuners and earlier, which is why DTV OTA reception in big cities is very tough to do unless you have a 5th gen or 6th gen tuner.

In my mind, there's only 3 generations of tuner: 1st-4th gen was the "first", 5th gen was the "second", and the 6th was the third for long-range reception.

As for your bent rod, if you can lock WBBM, and you haven't had any problems or noticeable drops with any other channels, you are golden.

And as Ramm said...I bet you can get Milwaukee and maybe Arlington Heights with that thing. If you're an NFL fan, that's huge...Milwaukee frequently carries different games than Chicago does, and sometimes Rockford too, but nowhere near as much (I'd actually say rarely).

Oh, and BTW, this record heat is causing occasional funky reception. Mine's been very good, but when the Cubs clinched the division, I couldn't see it. Grand Rapids, MI obliterated everything from Chicago on my set, analog and digital.

You just reminded me of 19 in Grand Rapids. 725 kw from across the lake might be enough to mess a teeny bit with a large antenna pointed east, and I'm much closer to the lake than you are. If it continues to bug me long term, I may try toying with the amplifier and/or a newer tuner.

Thanks again to all on this board for the insights and suggestions.