Chicago, IL - OTA [Text View] - Page 5

George Mari

10-07-07, 09:37 PM

Hi guys - I asked for some antenna advice about 3 or 4 weeks ago, and got a lot of good responses. Gilbert recommended a Winegard 7084 mounted on the roof for me, based on my location and the fact that I wanted to get WBBM-DT reliably with no hassle.

Well, I was OK with that, but my wife didn't like the idea of another antenna on the roof - we already have a dish for D*, and we get our Internet service wirelessly, so in her mind, that's already two antennas on the roof.

I love my wife more than I love the TV, so after some more research, I decided on the CM 4228 teamed with the CM 7777 pre-amp, mounted in the attic. I worked out a location where I would be going through the side-wall of the attic, where it should be less affected by rain and snow accumulation than if it were going through the roof.

I knew with this antenna I wouldn't receive WBBM-DT, but I thought if the 4228 worked well enough in the attic for the Chicago stations, I might get a second one and point it at Milwaukee to get their CBS affiliate.

I ordered the equipment from Warren Electronics - it got here in like 2 days - wow, fast! This past Friday, I picked up some misc. hardware from Menards, and while I was there, I also thought I'd pick up some 300-ohm twinlead and a 300 to 75 ohm transformer, and try to put together a simple folded dipole cut for channel 3. The link has been posted on the list before:

http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html

I knew the CM 7777 pre-amp has a plug for VHF, so I thought what the heck, I'll plug in the dipole and give it a shot.

OK - so Saturday, I finally have everything mounted in the attic, all the quad-shielded RG-6 run, and everything is plugged in. Time to try it out. I left my old indoor, amplified antenna (G.E. Futara ) plugged in to the TV, to compare the signal level to the 4228.

With the 4228, on all the Chicago digital UHF channels, I am conistently getting signals in the 87% to 100% range - as good as I could hope for, so that's great. My little indoor set-top antenna was all over the board between 0% and 80% on one or two channels, so a big improvement there, which is what I was expecting.

The UHF analogs come in so well on the 4228, I can hardly tell the difference between them and their digital counterparts. They came in for me on my little Futara set-top antenna also, but with only a fair picture - lots of snow.

I am even more happy with the folded dipole cut for channel 3 - I get WBBM-DT at 75% signal strength and a perfect picture with no dropouts - during the day. Last night at about 10:00PM, it dropped down to about 45%, but still good enough for only one glitch in the picture in about 5 minutes of viewing. I also checked this evening, and again it's jumping between 50% and 45%, so maybe it's a day-night thing.

And, the lower and upper VHF analogs come in surprisingly well, too. 2, 5, 7, 9, 11 all come in with varying amounts of snow and ghosting, but still relatively watchable. I also get some analog VHF stations from Milwaukee - 4, 6, 10 and 12. Sure, the picture is not clear, but I can still easily make it out, and it's remarkable to me, given the fact that the dipole is angled toward Chicago, and I'm 57 miles from Milwaukee.

So all in all, I'm cautiously optimistic with my setup. I'm going to keep an eye on the signal strength for the next few weeks, and see how it varies with different weather conditions. If it's reliable enough, I'll connect it to my MythTV DVR setup for some OTA HD recording.

BTW, one thing I'm a little worried about is lightning/static. I know with the antenna in the attic I don't have to worry about a direct strike, but the RG-6 goes out the attic wall, down the outside of the house, and back into the house at ground level into the basement, and from there, back up to the TV on the main floor. I have a grounding block/wire/rod setup outside, and also the coax goes through a powerstrip/surge protector in the basement between the TV and the antenna. I've had previous problems with static or surges from nearby lightning strikes with my computer equipment, so I've learned to take precautions. Does anyone think I need any more static/lightning protection than I've already setup?

Thanks again!

c1c

10-08-07, 01:41 AM

sebenste

10-08-07, 08:37 PM

I am even more happy with the folded dipole cut for channel 3 - I get WBBM-DT at 75% signal strength and a perfect picture with no dropouts - during the day. Last night at about 10:00PM, it dropped down to about 45%, but still good enough for only one glitch in the picture in about 5 minutes of viewing. I also checked this evening, and again it's jumping between 50% and 45%, so maybe it's a day-night thing.

And, the lower and upper VHF analogs come in surprisingly well, too. 2, 5, 7, 9, 11 all come in with varying amounts of snow and ghosting, but still relatively watchable. I also get some analog VHF stations from Milwaukee - 4, 6, 10 and 12. Sure, the picture is not clear, but I can still easily make it out, and it's remarkable to me, given the fact that the dipole is angled toward Chicago, and I'm 57 miles from Milwaukee.

Which also suggests that if you point the CM 7777 towards Milwaukee, you'd get their digitals! Nice job on the VHF-UHF diplex, BTW. I gave you the "easy" solution because that's what most want...but I have 2 CM 4228's in my attic and a 7777 for one, and an AP-8275 from WInegard on the other.

So all in all, I'm cautiously optimistic with my setup. I'm going to keep an eye on the signal strength for the next few weeks, and see how it varies with different weather conditions. If it's reliable enough, I'll connect it to my MythTV DVR setup for some OTA HD recording.

Nice job! WBBM is always hit or miss. But folded dipoles do work well...one gentlemen uses it in Crete, IL, 25 miles south of the loop.

BTW, one thing I'm a little worried about is lightning/static. I know with the antenna in the attic I don't have to worry about a direct strike, but the RG-6 goes out the attic wall, down the outside of the house, and back into the house at ground level into the basement, and from there, back up to the TV on the main floor. I have a grounding block/wire/rod setup outside, and also the coax goes through a powerstrip/surge protector in the basement between the TV and the antenna. I've had previous problems with static or surges from nearby lightning strikes with my computer equipment, so I've learned to take precautions. Does anyone think I need any more static/lightning protection than I've already setup?

Thanks again!

I think that'll do it, except do unplug the TV during storms if possible. Otherwise, you are good to go---again, nice job!

sebenste

10-08-07, 08:41 PM

I just got an LCD TV and want to experience free HDTV. I am about 40 miles from Chicago. What antenna do you guys recommend to receive free HD signals? I would really like to watch some HD sports, this standard pixelated stuff just won't do it? Any suggestions for a noob?

Which direction? Can you put the antenna outside? If you can, a Winegard 7082P will do the job nicely for you if there aren't buildings/hills/trees in the way. In an attic, you'll need an amplifier if you can fit it in there. Otherwise, if you go with one of those indoor amplified antennas, your chances of getting everything are slim.

sebenste

10-08-07, 11:15 PM

I hope Kal Hassan is still checking this board out frequently. Over the last two weeks, I have noticed that WLS-DT's audio (and WTVO in Rockford) during sporting events on weekends has serious problems with their 5.1 audio. 2.0 is fine on analog. An audio engineer told a friend that it sounded like the audio was double-patched, or there was a phase cancellation that was occurring somewhere in the audio chain.

Apparently, some ABC affiliate stations have fixed it by installing new equipment on their end. I heard it as well...it was unlistenable during the Daytona race. It was really that bad, unfortunately.

Can you look into it, or have you found the problem? Thanks!

moxie1617

10-08-07, 11:21 PM

It was really bad. I thought I had my head in a bucket watching the race. Thanks for giving ABC a heads up.

shanks909

10-08-07, 11:30 PM

Mondays Jeopardy on 7.1 had bad audio also.

Rammitinski

10-09-07, 01:11 AM

I noticed tonight that 9-2 is back to showing the Spanish audio multicast of the main channel - and at 1080i.

If they're not going to put something different or worthwhile on 9-2, I don't know why they have to keep taking the bandwith away from 9-1. Those fast-action scenes on Smallville look awful (not to mention the ball games). I don't know why they can't just add an SAP track in Spanish on 9-1.

greywolf

10-09-07, 02:16 AM

The Spanish channel isn't a multicast but a mirrored channel. It takes very little more bandwidth than an HD channel. The only addition is audio.

Rammitinski

10-09-07, 03:29 AM

The Spanish channel isn't a multicast but a mirrored channel. It takes very little more bandwidth than an HD channel. The only addition is audio.The thing is - my tuner tells me the mirrored channel is also in 1080i.

greywolf

10-09-07, 09:09 AM

sebenste

10-09-07, 10:42 AM

It isn't a multicast. That's more than semantics. There are not two 1080i video streams but one. Mirroring a Spanish language channel takes much less bandwidth than a 480i secondary channel. Only the audio track gets added.

Yep, Pat is spot on. That's how WMVS-DT channel 8.1 (10.1) gets to have *7* subchannels while showing a picture on each one: the picture of the weather maps is mirrored on 3 channels, and that allows them to carry audio services from NPR.

And, I suspect it's merely a placeholder for whatever they're going to do next with that sub.

thepro8

10-09-07, 11:10 AM

sebenste

10-09-07, 04:46 PM

pinenut

10-09-07, 09:40 PM

sebenste

10-10-07, 12:12 AM

Hi,

My zip code is 60062. Having done some research via a few HD forums, I've decided that CM 4221 is what I need to get resoanable good OTA HDTV signals. I will deal with WBBM-DT later.

Do you know any local dealer for this antenna?

Hi Pinenut, and welcome to the forum! If you're not worried about WBBM, then this should work for you, if properly placed outdoors.

I can only think of one place that sells it, and call ahead to make sure they're in stock (they carry more of its big sister, the CM 4228): Fry's Electronics, about a mile north of I-355 and I-88 in Downer's Grove:

http://shop3.outpost.com/isp/downersgrove.html

I hope that helps. Take care!

foamy909

10-10-07, 08:55 AM

Looking for noobie help.

I have a samsung 50" dlp tv with no HD tuner. I live a mile and a half southwest of the sears tower. I can only do an indoor antenna. I live on the 7th story of a 8 story concrete building with a southern exposier. What kind of equipment should I get (antenna and HD tuner) and what kind of reception will I get? I really want good ABC, NBC, CBS, WGN, and Fox.

I think sebenste's call on the antenna is spot-on. At that distance from the towers, however, you may have a problem with multi-path. In terms of a HDTV set-top box, it looks like they are somewhat harder to find, now that most tv's have tuners. I found this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11755966#post11755966) over in the Reception Hardware forum. Look around a bit more there, but it seems as the Samsung DTB-H260F (http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/h260f.html) is the most widely available. It looks like it has the 5th generation tuner, which is supposed to be better for multi-path.

jmfordpromo

10-10-07, 09:34 AM

I think sebenste's call on the antenna is spot-on. At that distance from the towers, however, you may have a problem with multi-path. In terms of a HDTV set-top box, it looks like they are somewhat harder to find, now that most tv's have tuners. I found this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11755966#post11755966) over in the Reception Hardware forum. Look around a bit more there, but it seems as the Samsung DTB-H260F (http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/h260f.html) is the most widely available. It looks like it has the 5th generation tuner, which is supposed to be better for multi-path.
Another alternative is to look for a DVD Recorder that has a HD Tuner Built In. The cost would be only slightly higher and it gives you the bonus of being able to record OTA programs. I just bought a Sony DVD Recorder and I can record and play back in 16:9 and with the HDMI cable it is close to HD quality. The Samsung unit you mention seems to have some problems, in some writeups they talk about the difficulty of using the remote and problems with some of the menus not being easily available unless you have a HD TV. Hope this helps!

sebenste

10-10-07, 10:53 AM

Another alternative is to look for a DVD Recorder that has a HD Tuner Built In. I just bought a Sony DVD Recorder and I can record and play back in 16:9 and with the HDMI cable it is close to HD quality. Hope this helps!

Hi JM,

What model is this, and where can I get one? Call me interested...

moxie1617

10-10-07, 11:06 AM

Be aware that it is a ATSC tuner that decodes to 480i and then upconverts. It will give a nice clear digital picture but it won't be true HD. As JM said, close to HD quality.

jmfordpromo

10-10-07, 11:14 AM

Hi JM,

What model is this, and where can I get one? Call me interested...
The DVD Recorder is Sony RDRGXD455. There is also a Sony DVD/VCR combo RDRVXD655. I can also play the DVD's in 16:9 on two DVD players I bought last year. The 455 records in SD but with the HDMI cable it is close to HD. Also had two of my friends play discs I recorded, they can watch in 4:3, the sides are cut off (so it is not the full widescreen picture, looks like a regular TV picture). Unit has three playback options: 16:9, 4:3, or 4:3 letterbox. Hope this helps! I bought it at ABT, these are new models and not available everywhere. I also saw it at Circuit City. Cost is about $250, a better deal than paying $180 for a plain tuner.

bclbob

10-10-07, 04:24 PM

sebenste

10-10-07, 05:22 PM

As you might recall, WOCK-LD, sister station of WOCK-LP channel 13, was going to have a companion channel on 12. But when WBBM got it, they applied to move to channel 6.

The FCC has rejected their move to channel 6. So where they wind up now, is anyone's guess.

pinenut

10-10-07, 06:19 PM

Hi Pinenut, and welcome to the forum! If you're not worried about WBBM, then this should work for you, if properly placed outdoors.

I can only think of one place that sells it, and call ahead to make sure they're in stock (they carry more of its big sister, the CM 4228): Fry's Electronics, about a mile north of I-355 and I-88 in Downer's Grove:

http://shop3.outpost.com/isp/downersgrove.html

I hope that helps. Take care!

Gilbert, thank you for your help.

I hoped that I would find a local store which was close by. The Frys store in Downers Grove is 27 miles away and its web page lists the CM 4221 antenna at $49.99. http://shop3.outpost.com/product/5164086?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG Taking into account two and half gallos of gas, I will end up paying more than $55.

I, therefore, decided to order one at a Amzon store. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FVTPX2/103-7927003-9251017 It cost me $27.74 + $8.13 for Shipping.

sebenste

10-10-07, 07:20 PM

Gilbert, thank you for your help.

I hoped that I would find a local store which was close by. The Frys store in Downers Grove is 27 miles away and its web page lists the CM 4221 antenna at $49.99. http://shop3.outpost.com/product/5164086?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG Taking into account two and half gallos of gas, I will end up paying more than $55.

I, therefore, decided to order one at a Amzon store. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FVTPX2/103-7927003-9251017 It cost me $27.74 + $8.13 for Shipping.

Best way to go in this case! At the store, though, it may be cheaper. But regardless, you got it at a very good price at Amazon.

sebenste

10-10-07, 07:26 PM

hey sebense, since you're the real antenna expert around here, what would I be looking at for receiving chicago stations at 60 miles. my father in law is talking about going HD and he's in Stevensville MI and would probably like to get South Bend and Chicago like he has on cable (tho not HD)

South Bend stations: 154 deg @ 33 miles
Chicago stations: 264 deg @ 59 miles

He also has an antenna tower thats gotta be 25 ft high at least. I'm thinking South Bend should be pretty easy, CM 4228? (for the LD stations) ... how about Chicago? 4228 with 7777 preamp and forget about CBS? or what do you think CBS would be possible at that distance?

fyi: the fcc site shows he's a few miles inside the 28dbu contour for WBBM-DT

fyi2: estimating from google maps, theres only 1.5 miles of land between him and the lake, then its clear lake right to chi town

Hi Bob,

I have your full answer on another computer 5 miles away from me...when I forgot to hit "Send". D'oh!

If you don't care about WBBM-DT, then the CM 4228 is the way to go, with a Winegard 8700 preamplifier to lock the South Bend low power ABC, CW and independent station they have there. Tri-State Electronic and Solid Signal
have them (tselectronic.com and solidsignal.com). If you want to try to get WBBM and VHF stations (WLS will be going back to 7 and WBBM to channel 12), I'd recommend the WInegard HD8200P. It's huge, but it will do what you want. Do it with the Winegard 8700 amplifier, and that bad boy will be pulling in stations 80 miles away!

bclbob

10-10-07, 08:10 PM

Hi Bob,

I have your full answer on another computer 5 miles away from me...when I forgot to hit "Send". D'oh!

If you don't care about WBBM-DT, then the CM 4228 is the way to go, with a Winegard 8700 preamplifier to lock the South Bend low power ABC, CW and independent station they have there. Tri-State Electronic and Solid Signal
have them (tselectronic.com and solidsignal.com). If you want to try to get WBBM and VHF stations (WLS will be going back to 7 and WBBM to channel 12), I'd recommend the WInegard HD8200P. It's huge, but it will do what you want. Do it with the Winegard 8700 amplifier, and that bad boy will be pulling in stations 80 miles away!

How realistic is it that CBS will be good at 60 miles? Obviously having so much lake helps him out right? I forgot that ABC will be moving to 7 so it seems like I would want to make sure he has VHF for Chicago. I'm glad you reminded me ;)

I have 2 more associated questions.

At some point we will use a combiner to combine the Chicago + South Bend antennas onto one cable (so they can go into the one receiver), do you recommend joining at the antennas and then using one 8700 amp, or using an amp at each antenna and running the lines as separately as possible and joining right at the receiver input?

Also I believe both South Bend (CW) and Chicago (WCIU) have digital stations on 27 ... can you use a filter to "select" which 27 comes through, and will that work well (bearing in mind you are stuck with the choice most likely), or is it likely the filter will not be enough to block out enough and both stations are gone.

Thanks for your help. My father in law did have an antenna guy look at his antennas but he seemed clueless, so if I can pick out the antennas I think he'll have the guy put them up (we're both scared of the height of the antenna tower - you should have seen how scared we were putting the satellite dish only half way up that thing!). I imagine if this all works the antenna guy will probably freak out at all the stations that will come in with great PQ ;)

edit: one more question. the WFLD-DT contour only seems to go about half way across the lake, so it's probably not going to happen, right?

bearz54

10-10-07, 10:54 PM

sebenste

10-11-07, 01:17 AM

How realistic is it that CBS will be good at 60 miles? Obviously having so much lake helps him out right?

How realistic? Well, it's being done, so it's realistic. :D But, it won't be easy, which is why you need the monster antenna and the preamp to make it possible. If there are no above-ground power lines nearby, he has a realistic shot at it.

I forgot that ABC will be moving to 7 so it seems like I would want to make sure he has VHF for Chicago. I'm glad you reminded me ;)

Yep! And 12 for WBBM, and that Winegard HD8200P will do you wonders for both in 2009.

I have 2 more associated questions.

At some point we will use a combiner to combine the Chicago + South Bend antennas onto one cable (so they can go into the one receiver), do you recommend joining at the antennas and then using one 8700 amp, or using an amp at each antenna and running the lines as separately as possible and joining right at the receiver input?

I recommend neither. Joining an antenna output is extremely tricky and darn near impossible unless you really know what you're doing. Sometimes you get lucky, but I recommend either:

1. Get a rotor for the new antenna (be it the CM 4228 or Winegard HD8200P), or

2. Use two RG-6 leads and then use an A-B splitter to split the output right before it goes into the TV.

I recommend #1 because he will be able to not only get Chicago and South Bend, but also Grand Rapids, MI and probably some Milwaukee as well. During the evening, when the atmospheric noise levels go down, reception typically improves by 10%. With the Winegard 8200P and the amp, he has a shot at getting all 4 markets in the evening. Sure, much of the programming is duplicated, but the CBS in Milwaukee multicasts a "Nick at Nite" older-type channel from the 50's through the 80s.

Also I believe both South Bend (CW) and Chicago (WCIU) have digital stations on 27 ... can you use a filter to "select" which 27 comes through, and will that work well (bearing in mind you are stuck with the choice most likely), or is it likely the filter will not be enough to block out enough and both stations are gone.

The thing that helps you here is the ability to null out unwanted signals.
Using either of the two antennas, if you point one at South Bend, and one at Chicago, you may get nothing, one or both. It won't be easy, but I bet you get at least South Bend.

Thanks for your help. My father in law did have an antenna guy look at his antennas but he seemed clueless, so if I can pick out the antennas I think he'll have the guy put them up (we're both scared of the height of the antenna tower - you should have seen how scared we were putting the satellite dish only half way up that thing!). I imagine if this all works the antenna guy will probably freak out at all the stations that will come in with great PQ ;)

Glad to help.

edit: one more question. the WFLD-DT contour only seems to go about half way across the lake, so it's probably not going to happen, right?

Not necessarily. The contour assumes a "proper outdoor antenna at 30' elevation". It does not include effects from the antenna inside your attic, weather, or preamplifiers/amplifiers. With the preamplifier boosting your signals by 17-19 dB, every 3 dB is a 50% increase in signal. The FCC also assumes you'll lose 5 dB of signal through the line, so the preamp overcomes that and then some. I have a friend in Waterman, 60 miles south-southwest of Chicago in southern DeKalb county, IL. With a Winegard HD 7084P, not quite as good as the 8200P, he is able to lock the FOX station from the Quad Cities constantly at 90 miles out on his 30' tower, and a ChannelMaster 7777 preamp on it (with 28 dB gain). Using that setup, he was able to lock FOX Rockford from behind a hill 40 miles away...when it was at a mere 2,300 watts. At night, he locked the Peoria, IL stations, 80 miles away. Let's just say putting a preamp on that antenna will get you reception. :D

sebenste

10-11-07, 01:24 AM

Hopefully someone can please help me resolve an issue I'm having with my digital tuner. I live in Chicago, about 14 miles away from the broadcast towers. I recently installed a Radio Shack VU90-XR HD w/ new RG-6 cable.

For some strange reason ABC 7-1, 7-2, and 7-3 will keep droping out. Sometimes ABC will lock in, but most of the time it will show no signal.

When I do get ABC, the signal strength, 77%, is about the same as the other channels recongized by the digital tuner. But the other channels lock in and never drop out.

I bought 3 different hd tuners( samsung, pansonic dvd recorder, and air vision) and all three of the tuners produce the same 'drop out' or loss of signal for channel 7-1, 7-2, and 7-3.

Does anyone know what could be causing this problem ? Is this a problem because I am using a Radio Shack VU90-XR HD ? Or could it be something blocking that ABC signal out of my control, i.e. crane , building, etc ?
Hi Bearz,

Given you've tried it with 5th generation tuners and the dropouts didn't stop,
I am guessing that your antenna is in an attic. If you can, see if analog channel 50 is snowy. If it is (and I suspect it is), first try to adjust the antenna to point it at Sears Tower...which is where they broadcast from. If that doesn't work, an amplifier or a preamplifier will help you if you are in an attic, which knocks down about 50%-90% of your signal or more, depending on material. If so, then try the Winegard AP-8700 preamplifier. It will also give you "pad" on the other stations. But only do the latter if adjusting the antenna doesn't work...and the antenna is indoors.

kjnorman

10-11-07, 01:31 AM

balkan

10-11-07, 02:06 AM

I need to replace a deteriorating 10 year old Winegard CA7080 antenna and mast. Antenna is approx. 16 feet up and gets good analog reception on everything but channel 2 and even that is ok some of the time. I am located about 14 miles west of downtown Chicago at Roosevelt and Mannheim Roads in Hillside. Looking ahead to digital would the Winegard HD7082P be suitable. Is it overkill or should I go larger? I probably will get the Samsung box soon for an older Sony TV and a Pana E55 recorder, but right now the antenna needs replacing before the mast falls over. Your water pipe recommendation sound great for that.

escopa

10-11-07, 02:12 AM

kjnorman, you shouldn't have any problems picking up OTA in your attic. I'm close to 95th/ Plainfield Rd. in Naperville and all I have is a cheap Radio Shack 160'' boom in my attic with a 150ft run and a cheap amp in the basement w/probably RG59 (premove-in install). I've had no problems picking up everything except WBBM. I even recently noticed my wife had been using the antenna to hang her wreaths on. And as far as going outdoors, the HOA cannot restrict this.

George Mari

10-11-07, 09:40 AM

kjnorman, I'm in Vernon Hills, about 31 miles NNW of Chicago transmitters, and just last weekend put a CM 4228 and a home-made folded dipole in my attic, combined with a CM 7777 pre-amp. I'm going out the side wall of my attic, not the roof, and I'm getting 87% to 100% on all UHF channels. I'm getting WBBM-DT at 75% in the daytime, 50% late at night. I chose the smaller antenna combo because I have trusses every 2 feet in my attic, so a bigger antenna was not something I wanted to try.

As long as you don't have foil-backed shingles or aluminum siding to go through, and a relatively clear shot to Chicago (not too many houses and trees in-between) I think you have a good chance.

If you have an "open" attic, I would suggest the monster antenna, though. Come Feb. 2009, we'll have our ABC and CBS affiliates on VHF channels 7 and 12, respectively, so a UHF-only antenna won't be enough.

jkseger

10-11-07, 12:48 PM

hvs10trk

10-11-07, 03:49 PM

Also I believe both South Bend (CW) and Chicago (WCIU) have digital stations on 27 ... can you use a filter to "select" which 27 comes through, and will that work well (bearing in mind you are stuck with the choice most likely), or is it likely the filter will not be enough to block out enough and both stations are gone.

You won't be able to have both. You will be more likely to get WCWW in SB but chances are both antennas are going to pick up both stations and cause multipath problems. We have quite a few problems with WCIU and WCWW interfering with each other.

hvs10trk

10-11-07, 03:52 PM

PearlMikeJam

10-11-07, 04:15 PM

sebenste

10-11-07, 04:50 PM

Hi all,

I'm in Elmhurst, IL 60126, just SE from the corner of York and St Charles Rds about 16-18 miles from the Sears Tower (93deg -15.3mi) and Hancock (88deg - 16mi) Buildings. I need to pick up on OTA HD antenna and was wondering if anyone would have any recommendations for me, as I need all the help I can get.

I'd prefer to put the antenna in my attic which is about 25 feet from ground level and faces East toward the towers. I'd also like to be able to pick up CBS. I will also need to split the signal into multiple (~4) DirecTV receivers so an amplifier might be necessary.

Our attic space has some limitations. I think the LV guy tried to put a Winegard 7082P in there but it was too big Anyway, he's trying to get me onto the Winegard Squareshooter, which he would mount on the side of the house. Is the SS a good antenna for my needs and if so should I suggest the 1000 or 2000. I'm trying to become more knowledgable so I can converse with him better (i.e. make sure I get the right antenna).

Would mounting the 7082p or the 7210p on the roof be a good option? I'd be open to other antenna options so any other recommendations you have in that regard would also be helpful.

If you need any other info, please let me know.

Thanks in advance.

John

Hi John,

You're not making this easy! :) Well, I will say this: Either way, you'll need a preamp. Knocking the signal down approximately 16 dB from the four splits, which includes losses from connectors, means you'll need one (a 3 dB loss is roughly a 50% drop in signal).

First, if you put the Winegard 7082P (not the 7210p, won't work well for you)
on the roof, it guarantees you'll get excellent reception, so long as a building isn't blocking you. If you do this, and I recommend you do, then you'll need a Winegard AP8700:

https://www.tselectronic.com/winegard/ap_preamp.html

Now, if you put this in an attic, your reception will be knocked down by at least 3-6 dB by being indoors; if you have a roof that contains metal. And, worse, multipath may be a problem.

But it's up to you. You'll definitely need a preamp to get it.

A Square Shooter in an attic? It's rated 25 miles for outdoor reception. Knock 3-6 dB off of that and you're looking at 10-15 miles in an attic. Oh, rated, that is for everything but WBBM. :(

sebenste

10-11-07, 04:57 PM

Hi all. I live in Johnsburg, just north of McHenry. I am 47.1 miles (in the green zone) away from the Chicago towers. I am looking for an antenna that I can use in rare occasions when I get rain fade on my D* or when I am recording two shows on D*. I would probably only need to use the antenna once a week, if that. Can anyone recommend a budget antenna for this distance? Is their an indoor model that may work?

Not at that distance; someone in Wauconda tried it and got 3-4 stations.
On the other hand, you may also get results by getting Rockford and Milwaukee because you are nearly exactly between all 3 TV markets/towers.

How big? Can you put a channelMaster 4228 (40" by 40" in your attic, or a channelmaster 4221 22" by 22" there? If so, you'd probably get their locals, too.

sebenste

10-11-07, 04:59 PM

sebenste

10-11-07, 06:09 PM

bearz54

10-11-07, 06:58 PM

Hi Bearz,

Given you've tried it with 5th generation tuners and the dropouts didn't stop,
I am guessing that your antenna is in an attic. If you can, see if analog channel 50 is snowy. If it is (and I suspect it is), first try to adjust the antenna to point it at Sears Tower...which is where they broadcast from. If that doesn't work, an amplifier or a preamplifier will help you if you are in an attic, which knocks down about 50%-90% of your signal or more, depending on material. If so, then try the Winegard AP-8700 preamplifier. It will also give you "pad" on the other stations. But only do the latter if adjusting the antenna doesn't work...and the antenna is indoors.

The antenna is mounted outside on the roof.

I tried a comcast amplifer and it didnt help at all. Radio Shack amplifer didnt do anything either.

That said, Analog channel 50 is snowy. As you mentioned, that means the antenna needs to be adjusted. I think the reason is that when I was up on the roof this summer I adjusted the anntenna for WBBM Channel 2 for the upcoming NFL season. I am just scared that if I adjust to channel 50 I loss the signal to channel 2 WBBM !

However, Analog Channel 7 is perfect. I don't understand how the analog can be perfect but the digital channel suffers from frequent drop outs ??

Whats strange is that in the 10+ years I lived in my home I never expereinced ghosting, but within the last 4 months a few of my channels, fox 32 and channel 50, show a very slight ghosting. Any idea what could be causing this ? Could this be affecting the signal quality of digital channel 7 ?

sebenste

10-11-07, 09:06 PM

The antenna is mounted outside on the roof.

I tried a comcast amplifer and it didnt help at all. Radio Shack amplifer didnt do anything either.

That said, Analog channel 50 is snowy. As you mentioned, that means the antenna needs to be adjusted. I think the reason is that when I was up on the roof this summer I adjusted the anntenna for WBBM Channel 2 for the upcoming NFL season. I am just scared that if I adjust to channel 50 I loss the signal to channel 2 WBBM !

However, Analog Channel 7 is perfect. I don't understand how the analog can be perfect but the digital channel suffers from frequent drop outs ??

Whats strange is that in the 10+ years I lived in my home I never expereinced ghosting, but within the last 4 months a few of my channels, fox 32 and channel 50, show a very slight ghosting. Any idea what could be causing this ? Could this be affecting the signal quality of digital channel 7 ?

Yes, and yes. Here's what's happening...

WLS-DT actually physically broadcasts on channel 52, which is why I asked about your analog channel 50 reception. Chances are, if reception on 50 is bad, 52 will be bad, too.

If there are no buildings between you and Sears Tower, then the ghosting is likely the result of a misaimed antenna (the snow is also a giveaway here).
Combination antennas tend to struggle picking up stations at and above channel 50 or so. Some are better than others. In either case, repositioning the antenna should help you. Since the angle difference is pretty small between you and Sears/Hancock, get 50 coming in better...and then see how WBBM comes in. As to what could be causing it, with the bad storms we had this summer, it could have gotten blown slightly off where you pointed it originally. That's my guess.

PearlMikeJam

10-11-07, 09:16 PM

Not at that distance; someone in Wauconda tried it and got 3-4 stations.
On the other hand, you may also get results by getting Rockford and Milwaukee because you are nearly exactly between all 3 TV markets/towers.

How big? Can you put a channelMaster 4228 (40" by 40" in your attic, or a channelmaster 4221 22" by 22" there? If so, you'd probably get their locals, too.

sebenste,

Thanks. Just out of curiosity, I live on fairly high ground. Would I be able to place either one of the ChannelMaster antennas on a tripod in my basement? My basement faces directly south and I have french doors and a large window that could be used to point the antenna if needed. I also have all of the TV cabling running from the basement up to all the rooms.

Thanks again.

bakers12

10-11-07, 10:39 PM

Just out of curiosity, I live on fairly high ground. Would I be able to place either one of the ChannelMaster antennas on a tripod in my basement? My basement faces directly south and I have french doors and a large window that could be used to point the antenna if needed. I also have all of the TV cabling running from the basement up to all the rooms.

In my opinion, it would be a miracle to pull in distant stations from a basement antenna.

GG386

10-11-07, 10:56 PM

sebenste

10-11-07, 11:50 PM

sebenste,

Thanks. Just out of curiosity, I live on fairly high ground. Would I be able to place either one of the ChannelMaster antennas on a tripod in my basement? My basement faces directly south and I have french doors and a large window that could be used to point the antenna if needed. I also have all of the TV cabling running from the basement up to all the rooms.

Thanks again.

Only if you were within 10 miles of the towers would you have a shot at it...a shot. And depending on the basement, a long shot. I know, it sounds good, but...it won't work, unfortunately. That I can guarantee.

sebenste

10-12-07, 12:02 AM

Gilbert,
I see your still in the "circle of trust" with all your help to us fellow OTA'rs- way to go! I'm still plugg'n along with my 8200 and enjoying all of that free and glorious HD:)
Finally getting around to installing my HT, and here's where the rub is. I'll be using a front projector that has no tuner for OTA. Maybe you or other forum members can help with which tuner to use. As I've read there's some issues with some of the equipment out there, especially with recorded playback, which would be a huge drawback with a 110" screen:rolleyes:. All this equipment necessary to put this theater together is gettin a little out of hand, so I want to get it right the first time. How would I even know what generation tuner I'd be buying, is there some kind of benchmark that the tuner would have to meet?
Anyway, TIA for any suggestions that will end my quest for The Perfect Tuner!

Hey GG,

Yep, still grabbing signals from nowehere out here in DeKalb. :-) I just noticed that if I was a big NFL fan, CBS Chicago (currently) has no plans to show any 1 PM Saturday games. But if you can get Rockford and Milwaukee CBS, you'd see two different ones!

Anyway, there's no "perfect" tuner, although the 6th generation tuner from LG comes awfully close, from the details I have heard. Unfortunately, they don't have any set top boxes (STB's) that you need with that generation on it. Samsung is also coming out with a 6th gen tuner, and it claims similar reception.

What you want is a 5th generation set top box. I suggest you try the Samsung DTB H260F. Although the reception is equal to or slightly better than a 4th generation tuner, a 5th gen does well at picking up stations off the side of the antenna, and handles multipath very well. I would actually consider the 1st-4th generations of tuners the "first generation", the "5th generation" is likely the "second generation" being a major improvement, and the "6th generation" is just amazing. You don't have to wait, though, for a 6th gen box to hit next year. Where you are, it won't matter.

Take care and enjoy! 110"...wowee! :)

kjnorman

10-12-07, 09:19 AM

Hey KJ,

Welcome to Chicago! A Winegard 7084 from Tri State Electronics should do you well, if it fits in the attic. You may need a modest preamplifier; a the Winegard AP-8700 should do the trick for you if you need it. Try it without first. At least one or two people have this setup, can get everything, including the elusive WBBM-DT.

Thank you for the suggestions.

I have talked to my HOA and they have no issue should I need to go outside with the antenna, though I (mainly my wife) would also not want to see the antenna from the street, and we have an open attic with a fairly clear view of downtown so we should be good to go.

I would rate the 7084 as a monster!!

One question, if I did go outside with the antenna, do you think I could get away with a smaller antenna or is it still best to go with these larger antenna types?

sebenste

10-12-07, 10:18 AM

Thank you for the suggestions. I would rate the 7084 as a monster!!

You are welcome, and yes I would! :D

One question, if I did go outside with the antenna, do you think I could get away with a smaller antenna or is it still best to go with these larger antenna types?

Unfortunately, no, for two reasons:

1. WBBM-DT (you need all the help you can get to get it anywhere in metro Chicago)

2. Insurance for signal padding, to get the stations even during the worst temperature inversions and bad weather conditions.

I always recommend an antenna size 2-3 sizes larger than what the FCC/Antennweb recommend because atmospheric interference and weather are never factored into that equation. Nothing more frustrating than to see "no signal" on your screen when a warm front is coming through in the spring-fall...

jkseger

10-12-07, 11:35 AM

Hi John,

You're not making this easy! :) Well, I will say this: Either way, you'll need a preamp. Knocking the signal down approximately 16 dB from the four splits, which includes losses from connectors, means you'll need one (a 3 dB loss is roughly a 50% drop in signal).

First, if you put the Winegard 7082P (not the 7210p, won't work well for you)
on the roof, it guarantees you'll get excellent reception, so long as a building isn't blocking you. If you do this, and I recommend you do, then you'll need a Winegard AP8700:

https://www.tselectronic.com/winegard/ap_preamp.html

Now, if you put this in an attic, your reception will be knocked down by at least 3-6 dB by being indoors; if you have a roof that contains metal. And, worse, multipath may be a problem.

But it's up to you. You'll definitely need a preamp to get it.

A Square Shooter in an attic? It's rated 25 miles for outdoor reception. Knock 3-6 dB off of that and you're looking at 10-15 miles in an attic. Oh, rated, that is for everything but WBBM. :(

Thanks, Gilbert. We've decided that signal strength and the enjoyment of watching OTA is more important then trying to fit anything in the attic. So, roof mount it is!!

If I understand you correctly, if I were to use a 7082P, mount it on the roof with the pre-amp you described, I should be good to go. I need to make sure that it's pointing in the right direction too, correct? I'm not doing the installation, there's a installer nearby that I hope can do this for me. I just want to make sure I know what needs to be done.

In your opinion, is the 7082p the right antenna for my proximity to the antennas? Or would the 7084p be better? I'm trying to get the best signal possible with out having the antenna be too big and the 7082p seemed like a nice compromise. Plus, I don't want to get more than I need.

One other thing, if I were planning to split the signal into ~4 DTV boxes, what items would you suggest I look at to prevent signal loss?

Thanks again. Have a great day!!

John

sebenste

10-12-07, 12:26 PM

Thanks, Gilbert. We've decided that signal strength and the enjoyment of watching OTA is more important then trying to fit anything in the attic. So, roof mount it is!!

Good for you! Wise choice.

If I understand you correctly, if I were to use a 7082P, mount it on the roof with the pre-amp you described, I should be good to go. I need to make sure that it's pointing in the right direction too, correct? I'm not doing the installation, there's a installer nearby that I hope can do this for me. I just want to make sure I know what needs to be done.

Correct. He needs to point it at Sears Tower.

In your opinion, is the 7082p the right antenna for my proximity to the antennas? Or would the 7084p be better? I'm trying to get the best signal possible with out having the antenna be too big and the 7082p seemed like a nice compromise. Plus, I don't want to get more than I need.

You just said the magic word: compromise. Compromise what? Size. But bigger size = more consistent reception. I leave it up to you to decide if that is a good idea. :) 7084P. Trust me on this one.

One other thing, if I were planning to split the signal into ~4 DTV boxes, what items would you suggest I look at to prevent signal loss?

Use the Winegard AP-8700 preamplifier to give that signal kick. That will overcome the losses from the splits and connectors, which are unavoidable.

Thanks again. Have a great day!!

John[/QUOTE]

You too! Take care.

pinenut

10-12-07, 12:54 PM

KFMB-DT and KGTV-DT both will move back to their analog frequencies in 2009 at channels 8 and 10. The PR8800 will not receive these two channels.

I recommend the Channel Master 4228 instead. It is less expensive and when you tie the two rear screens to gether they enhance the VHF-high reception of the 4228.

I saw the above quoted statement in another forum. If it is true, a modified CM4228 will be ideal for some of us in the Chicago area enabling us to receive channels 7 and 12 after Feb, 2009.

However, I am not sure how one goes about modifying the antenna as stated. By the way, I see only one rear screen from the picture as shown below.
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/4228.htm

Do you know of the way the antenna is modified to enhance the VHF-high reception?

dicko2

10-13-07, 08:31 AM

I saw the above quoted statement in another forum. If it is true, a modified CM4228 will be ideal for some of us in the Chicago area enabling us to receive channels 7 and 12 after Feb, 2009.

However, I am not sure how one goes about modifying the antenna as stated. By the way, I see only one rear screen from the picture as shown below.
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/4228.htm

Do you know of the way the antenna is modified to enhance the VHF-high reception?

THe back reflector is made from 2 pieces of mesh screen, call them the left and right pieces. I assume he's talking about taking some copper wire and wrapping it around the edges of the screens where they overlap, straight down the center of the antenna, and soldering everything together.

Another alternative would be to take a piece of chickenwire mesh, the same size as the 2 screens together and just fasten it behind the current screens.

-dickm

George Mari

10-13-07, 01:08 PM

So far I am happy with my attic-mounted CM 4228. One channel I am mildly interested in is WYIN-DT, from Gary, IN. I can get a PSIP lock, and a very intermittent, broken-up picture, signal strength anywhere from 0% to 10%. (I saw 25% for a few seconds once.)

Using Google Earth, I see that I am 69 miles from their transmitter tower. Using the tvfool.com website, I also see that they are at 155 degrees on the compass, whereas Sears tower is at 147, and the Hancock is at 144 degrees from my location. I initially had my antenna pointed toward the Sears/John Hancock, so I went back up to the attic and turned the CM 4228 a bit more to the right from where it was initially pointed, hoping to get at least a slightly better picture, but it did not help.

I am guessing I am just too far for this station, with an attic-mounted antenna. Does anyone have any opinions or ideas?

Thanks.

George Mari

10-13-07, 01:16 PM

I saw the above quoted statement in another forum. If it is true, a modified CM4228 will be ideal for some of us in the Chicago area enabling us to receive channels 7 and 12 after Feb, 2009.

However, I am not sure how one goes about modifying the antenna as stated. By the way, I see only one rear screen from the picture as shown below.
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/4228.htm

Do you know of the way the antenna is modified to enhance the VHF-high reception?

I found this link: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

Scroll to the very bottom and they have a section on using UHF antennas for VHF. It seems the 4228 has only about 1dB of gain on VHF channel 7, and about 2dB of gain on VHF channel 12, the two VHF-hi channels we in Chicago care about. So going by that chart, I don't think it would work so well, unless you're pretty close to the transmitters.

I also read elsewhere that you just have to have the two halves of the wire mesh touching each other - no need for wirewrap and solder. Zip ties would work just as well.

zippyfrog

10-13-07, 04:39 PM

Quick question - has WGN changed their channel setup? On 9-1, I get WGN-D1 and it says "multi" under the sound (1080i, 16:9). On 9-2, I get WGN-D2, where instead of multi it says Spanish, and lists 1080i, 16:9. What happened to the Tube music network? I tried a rescan of my channels and the same setup shows for WGN.

moxie1617

10-13-07, 04:47 PM

It's no more. A few posts about the Tube starting here:http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11780673&highlight=tube#post11780673

jmdomini

10-13-07, 08:25 PM

sebenste

10-14-07, 01:00 AM

sebenste

10-14-07, 01:05 AM

Hello all, long time no post. I will be moving to the west side of Aurora come February, the Golden Oaks subdivision. Wondering what the reception situation is there both for Chicago and Rockford. I'm thinking I might have an easier time with Rockford than I did from the far southeast side.

I sure will be happy to get away from the daily joy of Eola Rd.!

All I can say is this: with a 15 year old WInegard antenna pointed southeast with 150' of lead-in cable, the Saturn dealership in North Aurora can get a messy signal of analog WREX-TV 13. You have a shot at WTVO-DT (16.1) and WQRF-DT (42.1), and maybe WREX-DT (54.1) from time to time.

OTA_GUY

10-14-07, 12:07 PM

Hey GG,

Yep, still grabbing signals from nowehere out here in DeKalb. :-) I just noticed that if I was a big NFL fan, CBS Chicago (currently) has no plans to show any 1 PM Saturday games. But if you can get Rockford and Milwaukee CBS, you'd see two different ones!

Any hope of getting rockford or milwaukee from elmhurst with a roof mount CM3016 or the like. At 20 miles west of the loop I get rock solid signals for all chicago OTA (including cbs), but I want 5 OTA games a week (two fox, two cbs, one nbc) -don't get me started on the mlb tbs debacle.

Rammitinski

10-14-07, 06:18 PM

Any hope of getting rockford or milwaukee from elmhurst with a roof mount CM3016 or the like.Highly unlikely from that distance and location, even with the best of equipment. Plus, Elmhurst is one of the most heavily treed suburbs around there (I was born in Elm. Hosp., and grew up right around there, just over the border in Cook). But even if you're out in some open spot somewhere, I seriously doubt it.

OTA_GUY

10-14-07, 08:50 PM

Highly unlikely from that distance and location, even with the best of equipment. Plus, Elmhurst is one of the most heavily treed suburbs around there (I was born in Elm. Hosp., and grew up right around there, just over the border in Cook). But even if you're out in some open spot somewhere, I seriously doubt it.

Yeah, 80 miles to rockford , doubt I could get a permit for a 40' tower... Guess I'll be moving.

steffi

10-14-07, 10:42 PM

So I'm at State and Superior facing south with line of site to the Sears tower. Does anybody expect that I'd have any trouble picking up a good signal for most OTA stations then?

sebenste

10-15-07, 12:50 AM

So I'm at State and Superior facing south with line of site to the Sears tower. Does anybody expect that I'd have any trouble picking up a good signal for most OTA stations then?

As always, every location is different, but if you are line of sight, you should be good to go, if you can actually see it, with a simple pair of "rabbit ears" and a "loop" UHF antenna.

sebenste

10-15-07, 02:51 AM

It isn't HD, but after midnight, they started playing a Gaither Homecoming special. I noticed and was astounded to find that the far left and right sides were cut off slightly, but it most certainly was 16:9! Maybe they were playing it off a DVD? Regardless, it was the first program I have seen showing true 16:9 aspect ratio on WYCC-DT, and even though it wasn't HD, it looked decent.

I wonder if they are tweaking it for whatever they plan to do with 20-1? And why late at night? Tweaking stuff? Engineers don't work late Sunday night/early Mondays. ;) :D

hvs10trk

10-15-07, 06:11 AM

bakers12

10-15-07, 01:44 PM

Now if they'd just fix the lipsync on Analog 20. :eek:

What's "analog?" :confused: :p

hvs10trk

10-15-07, 05:31 PM

What's "analog?" :confused: :p

That static crud they put between the digital channels. :D

sebenste

10-15-07, 06:12 PM

Speaking of engineers who never seem to sleep... :D

HVS, any news about WWME-LD? Winter is a closin' in...

hvs10trk

10-16-07, 06:12 AM

Speaking of engineers who never seem to sleep... :D

HVS, any news about WWME-LD? Winter is a closin' in...

Only when my kids let me. :eek: No news. :(

jkseger

10-18-07, 02:27 PM

Hi all,

This is John from Elmhurst. I posted a week or so ago and was advised to roof-mount a Winegard 7084P and use a AP8700 pre-amp. Anyone remember?

Anyway, I innformed my LV guy of my decision. He said he doesn't do roof mount installs and says he knows a guy that does. He's yet to return my call. I hate this LV guy and need a recommendation for an installer that can install this antenna on my roof.

Does anyone know any installers that service the Elmhurst area that do Winegard roof-mount installations? Also, if anyone has any recommendations for a LV guy in the same area, please feel free to provide a name or company. I'd love to get rid of this guy.

Thanks,

John

OTA_GUY

10-18-07, 03:10 PM

greywolf

10-19-07, 10:42 AM

Hardest part was driving the 8' ground rod.I hope that ground rod is bonded to the main building ground with 6ga copper wire or better. It's a building code requirement and will keep your equipment from going up in smoke from a nearby lightning strike. http://www.cinergy.com/surge/ttip08.htm

longwong

10-19-07, 11:26 AM

sebenste

10-19-07, 11:55 AM

Finally got the 7084 remounted again, hopefully this time being the last for a long time. It's now on a tripod about 3 feet behind the old chimney mount. The chimney brackets I found to be noticeably bent from the hard winds we had recently, which leads me to wonder how on earth anyone can sustain a good mount on a chimney to begin with. The winds exert a lot more force on a mast antenna than I had envisioned, enough to bend steel. I suppose it's better the mounts fail than the chimney altogether...

I noticed that when the unit was moved merely 3 feet back, I got WGN to lock again but lost WJYS, and the two Spanish stations are also somewhat weaker. I'm reasoning that it's got to be multipath, but I can't quite figure out exactly why some stations die and others live when they all broadcast from essentially the same location at higher altitude and generally high power to begin with. Is it normal for one's installation to fall slightly short of having all the local stations come in solidly from one antenna position in this area?

Yes. Actually, the chimney is probably causing you some multipath now. And BTW, there is a 200'-300' difference from WPWR-DT, the highest part of the Sears antenna at 1800', to let's say WGN and WTTW, which are among the lowest.

I wouldn't say you "lost" WJYS's infomercial and "dollar a holler" shows. :)
But yes, even a few inches can cause a wide variance in reception. Between trees and other objects that cause absorption/reflection of signal, you want to reduce it as much as you can. That's why a bigger antenna is good; it can handle those variances better.

longwong

10-19-07, 12:09 PM

sebenste

10-19-07, 05:58 PM

WGBO and WXFT still lock at 70-80% with wind break-up glitches from time to time, so I suppose that the 7084 is still doing it's job. Nonetheless, I think I will sit tight for the time being, seeing as how the English language majors are a lock. Having WJYS was surreal though, with its combination of paid programming and preaching (a friend of mine commented that car salesman and preachers are actually not that far apart...).

Is it unreasonable for me to expect 'perfect' reception in the midst of suburban clutter?

Not if you clear all trees and buildings. Oh, and the ones in downtown Chicago count!

WBBM-DT gets multipath off of Sears, so it's a double whammy with them. Wait, it's a quadruple whammy. Wait... :D

Actually, the wind breakup indicates that:

Trees are in your way
The antenna has a loose connection

Try adjusting the antenna after the wind calms down. You might still get everything. Have a spotter at the TV; it might be misaimed slightly, or because of reflections, you might even have to move it a bit in a direction that may or may not make sense.

longwong

10-19-07, 06:24 PM

sebenste

10-19-07, 06:50 PM

Actually, it's been my experience that with a big enough antenna, I've gotten a consistent lock on WBBM even when the antenna not quite aimed properly, and it is more resistant to multipath than the UHF frequencies. Electrical interference appears to be its biggest enemy; from time to time their signal hiccups for a split second. I suspect that once the wind slows down and the trees stop moving, the two Spanish stations will probably stay locked at 80% or slightly above. I also don't really need 62, but the wavering nature of that signal tells me just how fickle signals can really be, and I've all but given up hope on getting Milwaukee on-demand... The antenna lead was tightened and shouldn't be loose this soon, and all the English language majors are staying at 85% or above, so I won't be tampering with it right this instant as I don't want to lose any more signals.
Thanks for the insight, though.

Hey Long,

True that on WBBM. Electrical interference really socks WBBM hard. And I bet you are more than in line with a tree now, which is why the spanish channels are fading; at higher frequencies, they are more susceptible to that (they being at channels 53 and 59). Milwaukee on demand...sure, with a rotor. :-)
You'll probably get it, if you have a 5th generation tuner, on tropo nights. Can you lock WYIN-DT now?

longwong

10-19-07, 06:55 PM

OTA_GUY

10-19-07, 10:01 PM

I hope that ground rod is bonded to the main building ground with 6ga copper wire or better. It's a building code requirement and will keep your equipment from going up in smoke from a nearby lightning strike. http://www.cinergy.com/surge/ttip08.htm

Thanks for the link.

Tied it to the meter w/ 15' run of AWG12.

Sixth of an inch thick copper (think jumper cables) seems like overkill for a half inch ground rod, but code is code.

Say got any links for mast grounding wire diameters?

Thanks again

sebenste

10-20-07, 02:36 AM

Funny you mention the higher frequencies - WLS doesn't slip below the 82-85% range but it varies slightly more than the stations situated below it. The antenna is now aiming more toward someone else's house than the tree, but no matter where I put it there's going to be significant blockage. I think I'll quit tinkering before I fall further behind.
No, you'll only gain from here. You have no preamplifier on it, correct? Or do you? I can't recall now...

As for WYIN, 17 never shows more than a 20%-maximum blip, except on some tropo nights, during which CBS and NBC from South Bend also come floating in. According to the FCC grid, I am more than 10 miles outside of the circle of the WYIN DT frequency, which leads me to wonder - didn't they say something a while back about getting a Sears transmitter? And now I'm also curious whether a low power signal from WWME can make it all the way out to the heights...
They wanted Sears for their analog, but WTTW joined forces with other stations to keep them off of there. They are at 300 kw from Crown Point...but if they can, they'll boost power in 2009. Just waiting for WTVO in Rockford and a station in Grand Rapids, MI to sign off.

Will WWME-LD make it? One thing is for sure, and another reason for the larger antenna, is that if you want the low-power digitals, you'll need a bigger antenna.

I say give the tweaking of the antenna one more try when you get a chance. Do it right...tweak it so that everything locks no matter what.

OTA_GUY

10-20-07, 02:44 PM

Observed this antenna tower while driving through downers grove - got to have it!

Owner was not available - anyone know where to find one like it?

http://linden.homeip.net/antenna.pdf

sebenste

10-20-07, 02:54 PM

Observed this antenna tower while driving through downers grove - got to have it!

Owner was not available - anyone know where to find one like it?

http://linden.homeip.net/antenna.pdf

I have never seen anything like that in my life!

At first, it looked like a longwave antenna, but then the fins at the end...

HVS or you other pros out there...what is this?!?!?

LYU370

10-20-07, 07:19 PM

OK, I FINALLY got around to finishing up the wiring for my 8200 on the roof. Plugged it in to the TV, turned it on, and.... Nothing!!!

That means one of my connections is bad. So how does one easily test which connector is bad?

I've got 4 cable sections, should have been three, but I screwed up and had to splice in an extension.

mikemikeb

10-20-07, 07:56 PM

LYU370, This is going to sound odd, but: Is the antenna pointed the right way? Double-check the instructions. Many people aim it 180 degrees off where they should aim it.

Or, maybe you should have one long pre-cut cable, as short as needed to get from antenna to TV tuner (Radio Shack Gold Series cable is fine). Cable extenders are usually pretty lossy, by the way.

hvs10trk

10-20-07, 09:04 PM

I have never seen anything like that in my life!

At first, it looked like a longwave antenna, but then the fins at the end...

HVS or you other pros out there...what is this?!?!?

I'll run it by a co-engineer. He's a ham and will probably recoginze it.

longwong

10-20-07, 11:14 PM

sebenste

10-21-07, 01:24 AM

OK, I FINALLY got around to finishing up the wiring for my 8200 on the roof. Plugged it in to the TV, turned it on, and.... Nothing!!!
Wow! I didn't think TV programming quality was that bad these days... ;)

Sorry...OK, let's work through this.

That means one of my connections is bad. So how does one easily test which connector is bad?

I've got 4 cable sections, should have been three, but I screwed up and had to splice in an extension.

IF the connectors are bad (read through this whole post first):

Undo each connector. If the RG-6 wire sticks out slightly further than the round tip of the connector, it should be good to go. If the connector almost falls off or falls off in your hand, you have a problem. Had that happen to me once, and the connector broke in two and fell off in my hand. Hey, at least I had extras and knew which one was bad! :D

I assume you have barrel connectors. If you can, try to reduce the number of connectors; if not, make sure those are in good condition. Sorry, there's no easy way around this one. Do you have a preamplifier with your setup, or no?
If you do, make sure that is hooked up correctly.

Now...before you do this, I want you to try something. Tune to channel 19-1 and 29-1. Do you see WGN and WMAQ? If so, you need to do a channel scan. If it won't let you tune channels, do a channel scan. Your TV has instructions on how to do this.

greywolf

10-21-07, 01:30 AM

Thanks for the link.

Tied it to the meter w/ 15' run of AWG12.

Sixth of an inch thick copper (think jumper cables) seems like overkill for a half inch ground rod, but code is code.

Say got any links for mast grounding wire diameters?

Thanks again17ga copper coated steel or bronze, 10ga copper or 8ga aluminum for that. It's just a static bleed off wire. The gauge is for physical strength rather than conductivity. The 6ga bonding wire is about conductivity. It has to handle the potential difference of a nearby lightning strike well enough to keep any dangerous levels from going through the equipment. Some grounding links include:

http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/GB-HTML/HTML/GroundingSatelliteDishandLead-InCables~20020303.htm

http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/GB-HTML/HTML/2002NECGroundingCommunicationsSystems~20020701.htm

http://www.sadoun.com/Sat/Installation/Grounding.htm

AVSforum member Signal posted the following helpful sites. Dish and antenna masts have the same grounding requirements.

National Electrical Code - Search for "dish" http://forums.nfpa.org:8081/necfaq/necsrch.htm

The information there also applies to antenna grounding. In the 2002 code update, if a water pipe is used, it must be all metal and connected to the electrical panel within 5ft of where the pipe enters the building. The connection to the pipe from the lightning arrestor/ground block and from the antenna/dish mast must also be within 5ft of the pipe's entry.

Always check local codes as they may be stricter than the NEC.

sebenste

10-21-07, 01:46 AM

It's amped with the 8700. I ran signal levels on all the splits, and it turns out that the one with the furthest cable length is the one that exhibits the most variance on the highest frequencies. The nearest of the cable leads shows all bars lit up. Either I get WJYS to barely lock and have WGN affected by some nasty multipath, or WGN locks and I lose some stability on the highest frequencies. I'm ecstatic enough to see WGN locking again, and all the other local majors from 52 on down are a solid lock. The only other station that worries me some is WWME-LD, whenever it comes on the air. I get the feeling that a UHF-only antenna will be able to consistently capture those lower power signals nearer to the fringe, but I don't intend to go that far.

Aha! This description actually is very telling. The reason why that cable exhibits instability at high frequencies is simple...it's losing signal. And even the 8700 can't quite compensate for it!

Tri-shielded Belden 1694A cable will fix that.

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/shopbycable/1694A.htm

It has considerably lower signal loss than even quad-shield RG-6, because this is an all-copper cable (most are covered with copper but use aluminum inside), and uses a higher quality shield than even a standard quad shielded cable does.

Blue Jeans has a good price on them, but you can also look around and see if you can get it cheaper elsewhere.

This will help you. If you can afford it, go for it. Seriously. Make this a great install from end to end. You may even get WJYS-DT again with it.

Finally, as for WWME-LD: If you do the above, you can say you really can't do better in any meaningful way. My hunch is this:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=LD1154444.html

Let's assume you have the Belden 1694A cable on for that leg of the trip. You are splitting the signal 3 ways. But you are using a 17 dB gain (2 dB noise) to overcome a 3 way split of 13 dB, roughly. So, you still are pumping 3 dB additional signal through your lines as "pad". You lose that pad with your long cable.

Now, the FCC assumes you have a "proper outdoor antenna at 30' height". Yours is a little less than that, BUT
it's better than what the FCC assumes you have in terms of antenna quality. Yes, you have a bit of multipath, but let me assure you with this:

Up until spring, FOX in Rockford (WQRF-DT) was at 2.3 kw, at about 600'. It went out nearly 40 miles with an outdoor antenna, and in DeKalb, 30 miles away, I could lock it with a 3rd generation tuner with a ChannelMaster 4228 8-bay antenna pointed at Chicago! Also with that same tuner and antenna, on nights with good tropo, I would almost lock a 2 kw religious station in South Bend...and had a shopping channel on 46 not been there from Chicago, I would have locked it.

WWME is only 1.6 kw, but it's at 1,600'...big difference versus Rockford's WQRF at 2 kw/600'. Anyway, on channel 39, you might get occasional interference from them, and the 1 mw station in Grand Rapids (WZZM-DT) also on channel 39, but on most occasions...my bet is that you get it.

Rommel42

10-21-07, 03:45 AM

lgdavis

10-21-07, 07:16 AM

I found this link: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

Scroll to the very bottom and they have a section on using UHF antennas for VHF. It seems the 4228 has only about 1dB of gain on VHF channel 7, and about 2dB of gain on VHF channel 12, the two VHF-hi channels we in Chicago care about. So going by that chart, I don't think it would work so well, unless you're pretty close to the transmitters.

Actually I don't think this antenna will be useful at all for DTV reception on VHF-High. You need a flat response for DTV, and the severe "suck-outs" as shown on the graph say this ant isn't a good choice for 7 to 13.. Too bad, I was going to use it as an "all channel" in '09.
So now my '09 plan is to add the Winegard 7 -13 yagi with my existing CM 4221 4-Bay , which works very well for all the Chicago UHF's here in Geneva. (I'm using a CM 7777 mast-mount preamp to fix line and splitter losses).

GJM1201

10-21-07, 09:03 AM

Observed this antenna tower while driving through downers grove - got to have it!

Owner was not available - anyone know where to find one like it?

http://linden.homeip.net/antenna.pdf

Looks like a pair of VHF ham antennas, probably for 144 MHz and 220 MHz, mounted on a tilt-over tower.

Not too helpful for TV, but the tilt-over tower does make getting to the top easier!

69 weeks to go...

sebenste

10-21-07, 10:40 PM

Gilbert,
After reading your comments about how well WQRF's 2.3KW signal got out to you and others at a fairly good distance I had a question for you.
Could you speculate on what digital reception will be like for those in Chicago and its close suburbs when the analogs sign off for good? With the analog interference gone will a good outdoor antenna like the CM 4228 at 30 feet with a rotor pull in Milwaukee, Rockford, and South Bend?

It depends on where you are. You'll finally have a shot at getting the Madison stations in, that's for sure. If you are within 75 miles of Milwaukee with a preamp close to the edge of the range, absolutely. Draw a line from just north of the Lake-Cook county border by about 5 miles, to East Dundee, to McHenry and then north and east from there to get Milwaukee. For Rockford, WQRF (FOX) should get into western Lake county and all of McHenry county now. The ABC and NBC will follow suit after analog shutdown, as well as northern and western Kane county.

Beyond that, however, Cook, Will and DuPage counties are out in the cold simply because of the line-of-sight problem; that doesn't go away with analog. BUT, it does mean that getting stations via tropospheric ducting, or "skip", will be easier, that's for sure. And, if you are within 80 miles of a full power station at over 500,000 watts, you have a decent chance of getting it much of the time.

sebenste

10-22-07, 09:13 PM

Analog channel 6 (WLFM-LP) has signed on. This used to be the old low-power channel 55. They are simulcasting channel 61 right now with MTV Tres. I can actually see them in DeKalb with a weak signal, believe it or not.
Noticed it flipping through the dial tonight.

I hope 7-3 makes this local radar loop permanent. My guess is that their Accu-Weather channel feed is down for maintenance.

Speaking of 7...7-1's audio tonight is once again sounding like it is in a tin can. Analog 7 is fine. Whassup with that?

uncle_boogaloo

10-23-07, 03:06 PM

foamy909

10-23-07, 03:50 PM

Hello all, I'm a southsider in the Beverly/Morgan Park area (approximately 11200 south). I live in a condo, and have a window with a direct path to the sears tower and maybe the hancock (if the sears isn't directly in front of it :) ). I have a regular directional antenna that comes with the ATI HDTV Wonder, and I am looking for options. So far I can pick up signals ok (except for CBS), but at times the signal goes out (especially during Heroes...argh). Does anyone have any recommendations for an indoor condo-friendly antenna that can see through heroes and perhaps pick up CBS?

-Edit, I just read the thread on CBS. I guess that's out....lol

I am not that far from you (91st & Western) and had pretty good luck with a simple rabbit ear/loop combo similar to this (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?parentPage=search&pg=2&summary=summary&cp=&productId=2453700&accessories=accessories&kw=loop+antenna&techSpecs=techSpecs&currentTab=features&custRatings=custRatings&sr=1&features=features&origkw=loop+antenna&support=support&tab=summary) prior to going to digital cable. I could not find what came with the HDTV Wonder to compare. I doubt you have room for a folded dipole (http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html) in a condo, but it is an option for special events on WBBM-DT. It worked for me even on the floor, when placed correctly.

I don't know if you are on any flight paths to Midway, but multipath bouncing off low-flying airplanes was my biggest problem, even after I put a Winegard 7210 in the attic.

TAdams

10-26-07, 01:56 AM

hvs10trk

10-26-07, 06:17 AM

Any idea when the networks in the 3rd largest market are going to get off their butts and broadcast the news in HD? ABC 7 is it for now. Having gone on vacation to Reno, and spending a weekend in Columbus, OH this year, and seeing more than one network showing HD news, it boggles the mind that there still is only one Chicago station showing HD news.

Well, it the end it comes down to money and your facility. WBBM, when done with their new building, will be HD. Going HD for news isn't a simple upgrade either. You basically throw out all your old equipment and buy a lota new toys.

TAdams

10-26-07, 10:09 AM

sebenste

10-26-07, 12:23 PM

Well how do all these very small market cities do it. Come on, Reno, and Columbus?? How big are these markets? Yet they somehow have managed to do it. They spend all this money on the fancy street side studios, ala, the Today show, yet they can't spend the money for HD?

I've read where stations equipment is reaching end of life, and so they have to replace everything. And, in other markets, competition for HD viewership is higher. CBS in Los Angeles has no HD news. And Reno and Columbus are definitely the exceptions for smaller markets.

FSugino

10-27-07, 12:52 AM

I've read where stations equipment is reaching end of life, and so they have to replace everything. And, in other markets, competition for HD viewership is higher. CBS in Los Angeles has no HD news. And Reno and Columbus are definitely the exceptions for smaller markets.

According to The Official AVS HDTV Programming Synopsis – Fall 2007 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11299304#post11299304) the CBS affiliate in LA does have HD news. Of the top ten DMAs, only Chicago, Boston, and Washington, D.C. have only one station broadcasting news in HD. The others all have two or more broadcasting HD news in their area.

veets

10-27-07, 12:58 AM

I wonder if it makes business sense for a station to do the upgrade if they are not otherwise replacing their equipment. While the discerning viewers on this board certainly want to see the news in HD, does HD really increase the station's ratings? Did it help WLS?

sebenste

10-27-07, 02:29 AM

According to The Official AVS HDTV Programming Synopsis – Fall 2007 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11299304#post11299304) the CBS affiliate in LA does have HD news. Of the top ten DMAs, only Chicago, Boston, and Washington, D.C. have only one station broadcasting news in HD. The others all have two or more broadcasting HD news in their area.

That must have happened recently. I can tell you this: Of the other big stations in the market, WFLD-DT (FOX) is close, WBBM is about 6-9 months away as soon as their building is done. WMAQ and WGN...who knows, but with WGN about to be sold, it won't happen soon. And I believe that if you get a chopper with high-def capability, you have to get a new one (or else the old one will be out for too long).

labnpei

10-27-07, 08:03 AM

just wanted to check in and let you know i am still getting signals with my manta 950 out here in 60443-even wbbm.

hvs10trk

10-27-07, 08:44 AM

That must have happened recently. I can tell you this: Of the other big stations in the market, WFLD-DT (FOX) is close, WBBM is about 6-9 months away as soon as their building is done. WMAQ and WGN...who knows, but with WGN about to be sold, it won't happen soon. And I believe that if you get a chopper with high-def capability, you have to get a new one (or else the old one will be out for too long).

WLS didn't buy a new chopper when they upgraded. They had a loaner for the longest time.

mikemikeb

10-27-07, 10:40 AM

1. KCBS in LA went HD when they moved their news operations to a brand new building, akin to what KYW in Philly has done and what WBBM will do.

2. Here in DC, that one station that's HD, WUSA, hasn't had ANY mass improvements in ratings in the two years they've been HD. OK, so the 5 AM newscast is apparently up and so is the last 15 minutes of the 11 PM newscast (apparently to watch Brett Haber do sports). Otherwise, nobody cares that WUSA news is in HD (apparently except for the local AVSers). Looks like the quality of the journalism is STILL the primary reason people watch HD news, NOT whether or not it's in HD. Anyone who thinks otherwise is in the minority.

3. I was reading the Cincinnati HDTV thread, and one of their stations, WCPO-9, went HD for news, and even some AVSers won't toon into their apparently tooney-bad news. (When I last visited there two years ago (before they went HD), I thought their news was the best in town. Hmmm.) Again, looks like journalistic quality is #1.

4. About WMAQ-HD News, there may be one thing that speeds up the conversion, so it'll be ready by mid-June or July 2008, and I can decribe it in four words: Jerry Springer in HD

sebenste

10-27-07, 11:27 AM

WLS didn't buy a new chopper when they upgraded. They had a loaner for the longest time.

Really! That's interesting. Back in the 1970s, even Rockford stations had choppers. I guess it's become too expensive to own one for almost all stations. I read somewhere that it's like $300 an hour to run some years ago, so it has to be higher now...

sebenste

10-27-07, 11:34 AM

1. KCBS in LA went HD when they moved their news operations to a brand new building, akin to what KYW in Philly has done and what WBBM will do.

Gotcha. WBBM's building is going to be really nice when it is done. Right now, parts of the ceiling is caving in where they are currently. The building is in bad shape...so the staff probably cannot wait for that new studio to be built!

2. Here in DC, that one station that's HD, WUSA, hasn't had ANY mass improvements in ratings in the two years they've been HD. OK, so the 5 AM newscast is apparently up and so is the last 15 minutes of the 11 PM newscast (apparently to watch Brett Haber do sports). Otherwise, nobody cares that WUSA news is in HD (apparently except for the local AVSers). Looks like the quality of the journalism is STILL the primary reason people watch HD news, NOT whether or not it's in HD. Anyone who thinks otherwise is in the minority.

Amen to that. WLS hasn't improved in their ratings significantly. That said, they haven't been in HD long. However, they're already on top because they have a decent budget, and they're almost always the new equipment leader in town.

3. I was reading the Cincinnati HDTV thread, and one of their stations, WCPO-9, went HD for news, and even some AVSers won't toon into their apparently tooney-bad news. (When I last visited there two years ago (before they went HD), I thought their news was the best in town. Hmmm.) Again, looks like journalistic quality is #1.

There may be some factor to it, but I agree with you that it won't be much. The real plus in having HD is when you have a breaking story and your chopper is looking down from a couple of thousand feet up. THAT'S the place to have an HD advantage because you not only get the wider perspective,
but because you have a sharper picture with more detail and you don't have the annoying weird color changes, fading in/out with an analog signal.
Oh, TV stations have to convert their chopers to digital transmission, I think, next year. Which is great, since I hate the typically fluttering signal levels coming from them which is really distracting.

4. About WMAQ-HD News, there may be one thing that speeds up the conversion, so it'll be ready by mid-June or July 2008, and I can decribe it in four words: Jerry Springer in HD

God help us. Enough said. Well, one more thing: that's their production studio, which is different than their news studio. Different equipment altogether.

cheer

10-28-07, 01:06 PM

cheer

10-28-07, 01:16 PM

As a followup, I am getting analog 32 just fine (which at least looks better than the SD feed from DirecTV). I called WFLD and the guy who answered the phone said he wasn't aware of any problem but that he would let the maintenance guys know.

How can I see the true hideousness of the orange uniforms without HD? :)

longwong

10-28-07, 01:22 PM

WFLD is coming in fine in Arlington Heights. Does your signal meter hop and jump from zero? May be atmospheric-induced multipath affecting your signal; it sometimes affects WGN out where I live. If your setup is proper and everything else is coming in well, you really can't do much about it except cut down all the trees surrounding your house and possibly bulldoze your neighbors' houses if they're taller than yours ;-)

sebenste

10-28-07, 01:24 PM

What's up with WFLD? Every other station is coming in fine, but my signal meter is showing 10 for WFLD (typically comes in around 91) and I get no picture, etc. Is it just me?

Someone does NOT want me to watch HD football.

Out here in DeKalb, I just turned on the TV at 12:20 PM. Picture was breaking up, but I had a problem with my rotor that required an initialization to clear. When I reset it and got the antenna pointed correctly, the picture every few minutes suddenly starts breaking up. Signal meter, however, shows it to be rock-solid...and I just checked FOX Rockford, that signal is fine. And I notice no spurious interference when it is happening on analog 32.
Ya got me...

Edit: It appears as though I had a low flying plane buzzing our subdivision. Now that it is gone, the signal seems fine.

cheer

10-28-07, 01:33 PM

WFLD is coming in fine in Arlington Heights. Does your signal meter hop and jump from zero? May be atmospheric-induced multipath affecting your signal; it sometimes affects WGN out where I live.
No, the signal isn't bouncing at all. Of course, the meter built into my TV isn't real great anyway, but it's pretty much locked at 10 right now.
If your setup is proper and everything else is coming in well, you really can't do much about it except cut down all the trees surrounding your house and possibly bulldoze your neighbors' houses if they're taller than yours ;-)
Don't think that's the issue -- it was working fine last Sunday during the game, so unless a tree suddenly grew (or a house was suddenly built) that myseriously ONLY affects WFLD... :)

cheer

10-28-07, 01:36 PM

Out here in DeKalb, I just turned on the TV at 12:20 PM. Picture was breaking up, but I had a problem with my rotor that required an initialization to clear. When I reset it and got the antenna pointed correctly, the picture every few minutes suddenly starts breaking up. Signal meter, however, shows it to be rock-solid...and I just checked FOX Rockford, that signal is fine. And I notice no spurious interference when it is happening on analog 32.
Ya got me...
Well you know this stuff a lot better than I do, Gilbert, so if you're stumped, I don't feel so bad. :)

So you've got good signal, BUT you're getting breakups. What would cause that? I would think if it was interference and/or atmosphere-related that the signal meter would register accordingly, yes?

sebenste

10-28-07, 02:08 PM

Well you know this stuff a lot better than I do, Gilbert, so if you're stumped, I don't feel so bad. :)

So you've got good signal, BUT you're getting breakups. What would cause that? I would think if it was interference and/or atmosphere-related that the signal meter would register accordingly, yes?

As for me, I haven't had a breakup since the plane left, so that's good. Signal strength is hovering around 90% for me. But the multipath was happening so fast, the meter wasn't catching it. It only polls every second or so, and it can miss the fast fluttering of multipath caused by planes flying by. I've seen it happen here several times; they're doing survey work, although the last guy I think was out for a joy ride on this nice day.

Is there a new truck or tall vehicle on your block, or did something get moved in your attic in the last week? Also, get this: Leaves absorb signal. Since the leaves are, uh, leaving...with those gone, you might be getting additional multipath. Can you check analog 32 to see what it looks like? If it's ghost-free, then that isn't it. You're pegging the signal meter, you say...trying turning down the amplifier if you can.

cheer

10-28-07, 02:58 PM

Is there a new truck or tall vehicle on your block, or did something get moved in your attic in the last week? Also, get this: Leaves absorb signal. Since the leaves are, uh, leaving...with those gone, you might be getting additional multipath. Can you check analog 32 to see what it looks like? If it's ghost-free, then that isn't it. You're pegging the signal meter, you say...trying turning down the amplifier if you can.
Analog 32 looks gorgeous. No new trucks, trees, or significant leaf changes in the past week. And I'm not pegging the meter at all -- it's showing 10 (out of 100); everything else (7-1, 9-1, 11-1, 26-1, and so on) is showing 86-92.

I'm at a loss, really.

sebenste

10-28-07, 05:00 PM

Analog 32 looks gorgeous. No new trucks, trees, or significant leaf changes in the past week. And I'm not pegging the meter at all -- it's showing 10 (out of 100); everything else (7-1, 9-1, 11-1, 26-1, and so on) is showing 86-92.

I'm at a loss, really.

Hmmm. Try a full power down of the receiver/TV and reboot.

longwong

10-28-07, 07:53 PM

An update on WFLD - as of 6 PM their DT signal went out, and they have since come back on with the SD feed.

cheer

10-28-07, 08:41 PM

Hmmm. Try a full power down of the receiver/TV and reboot.

No luck. Only other thing I can think of is that something is nulling it -- but I can't imagine what that could be. It's just bizarre that ONLY WFLD-DT would be affected, especially as analog 32 looks crystal clear.

radioinsomnia

10-28-07, 09:34 PM

An update on WFLD - as of 6 PM their DT signal went out, and they have since come back on with the SD feed.

I called the only number Google would turn up for them (312-565-5532), which put me through to their newsroom. I didn't press the guy for details, but he said the HD feed is "off right now and they're working on fixing it." Sounds like it's strictly a local issue.

Sparkman87

10-28-07, 10:20 PM

It is, I switched to FOX 6 in Milwaukee & it is in HD there.

bclbob

10-28-07, 10:35 PM

It is, I switched to FOX 6 in Milwaukee & it is in HD there.

bad night for their HD to go down. Thankfully I still have WNYW-DT via DirecTV DNS service

longwong

10-28-07, 10:44 PM

At least they still have a DT signal, though. If my memory serves correctly, we had to revert to analog when Fox broadcasted the 2005 Super Bowl since WFLD-DT was completely out that night. It could be worse.

evil

10-29-07, 01:16 AM

I call to and the were having problem with there network feed.

sebenste

10-29-07, 02:19 AM

No luck. Only other thing I can think of is that something is nulling it -- but I can't imagine what that could be. It's just bizarre that ONLY WFLD-DT would be affected, especially as analog 32 looks crystal clear.

No, no cheer...I didn't mean go downtown and reboot WFLD... ;) :D

Actually, does it come in now, since literally, they essentially rebooted their TV station? :eek:

mikemikeb

10-29-07, 05:37 AM

From the Official AVSForum Red Sox Sweep Again Thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=929798):

just got this in an e-mail from a friend...

They had a transmitter failure right about 6 PM...came back on the air just before 7 PM, in standard def. A call to their newsroom from an AVS Forum member revealed that their HD equipment was also knocked out (sounds like a power surge!). The game tonight was shown in SD, and future programs will be until it is repaired, ETA unknown (hopefully tonight).No, no, it won't be tonight, nor tomorrow, my forum friends....

/This thread brought to you by APC Surge Protectors: Be more professional than WFLD Fox 32. Buy a surge protector. Please. We beg you.

cheer

10-29-07, 07:18 AM

Actually, does it come in now, since literally, they essentially rebooted their TV station? :eek:
Nope. Must be something in my house or nearby, or else others would be complaining.

Anyone in or near Gurnee NOT having a problem with WFLD-DT?

I do love OTA HD, but things like this make me want to just order the upgraded receiver from D* so I can get the stations via sat...

Sparkman87

10-29-07, 09:17 AM

Nope. Must be something in my house or nearby, or else others would be complaining.

Anyone in or near Gurnee NOT having a problem with WFLD-DT?

I do love OTA HD, but things like this make me want to just order the upgraded receiver from D* so I can get the stations via sat...

It was out on Comcast as well. Even if you would have have it over D* I think it was out there too. I'm out by Midlane and I have my antenna aimed @ Milwaukee all of the time. Picks up all Chicago but CBS2 and all Milwaukee as well. Glad I had that option last night!

sebenste

10-29-07, 11:24 AM

sebenste

10-29-07, 12:22 PM

From the Official AVSForum Red Sox Sweep Again Thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=929798):

No, no, it won't be tonight, nor tomorrow, my forum friends....

/This thread brought to you by APC Surge Protectors: Be more professional than WFLD Fox 32. Buy a surge protector. Please. We beg you.

First, I'm sure they have power surge protection in place. Second, don't blame engineering for this unless you have all the details. It *sounds* like a power surge, but even if it is, those things do happen. This summer, my family of websites lost 4 hard drives and 2 UPS's...due to all the bad storms.
All of the machines are on APC 400 UPS's or better (most are better, much better). Sometimes, an old circuit has a problem, a drunk decides to take on a power pole, or at my work last week, a squirrel blew out a substation for 23 minutes, and blew himself out permanently, cooked medium rare. NBC 5 couldn't do a full newscast twice this year because of equipment breaking.
Digital backups are very expensive and even the big dogs downtown are juyst now finishing up on backup antennas for their DTV signal.

This is also why, if you are in the collar counties of Lake, McHenry, Boone, Kane, DeKalb and Kankakee in Illinois and Lake and Porter counties in Indiana, having a big antenna pays off. If you have a problem like this (or worse), you have a backup. As for me, I flipped to WQRF-DT, which was fine.

cheer

10-29-07, 02:28 PM

Chris,

What is your antenna/preamp setup? Give me a refresh on what you have.
Some unknown antenna in the attic of a 2-story house in Gurnee (was left by previous owner). CM7777 pre-amp, single run to my Panny plasma.

Here's what I'm seeing in terms of signal strength:

5-1: 88%
7-1: 88%
9-1: 98%
11-1: 89%
20-1: 88%
26-1: 90%
32-1: 10%
38-1: 88%
50-1: 88%

It's just WEIRD! The other numbers are all where they've been more or less forever (in other words, for at least the past couple of years). Anyway, I don't get a lock on 32-1; the TV just says "Poor Signal Quality."

(I don't get WBBM-DT at all. Also, the antenna clearly is not good at VHF: 9 is decent, but 7 and 11 have wavy lines, 5 is full of snow and static, and 2 is non-existent. So clearly I have to replace this sucker soon.)

ralphyboy

10-30-07, 10:14 AM

WMAQ sucks so bad, I cannot stand them. Apart from their issues last year by not broadcasting the NHL is HD, they are butchering some of the shows on their big Monday night. Last night, there were 2 instances where Heroes was in SD after coming back from a commercial break, then switched to HD at the end of a scene. Then the PQ on Journeyman was awful. I know they want it to look grainy, but it was snowy like old analog TV's. I was watching via D* on channel 5. Luckily I could switch to channel 82 for a better picture.

sebenste

10-30-07, 11:07 AM

Some unknown antenna in the attic of a 2-story house in Gurnee (was left by previous owner). CM7777 pre-amp, single run to my Panny plasma.

Here's what I'm seeing in terms of signal strength:

5-1: 88%
7-1: 88%
9-1: 98%
11-1: 89%
20-1: 88%
26-1: 90%
32-1: 10%
38-1: 88%
50-1: 88%

It's just WEIRD! The other numbers are all where they've been more or less forever (in other words, for at least the past couple of years). Anyway, I don't get a lock on 32-1; the TV just says "Poor Signal Quality."

(I don't get WBBM-DT at all. Also, the antenna clearly is not good at VHF: 9 is decent, but 7 and 11 have wavy lines, 5 is full of snow and static, and 2 is non-existent. So clearly I have to replace this sucker soon.)

Now might be the time, to get WFLD. :) Might as well make sure you're on the digital bandwagon now. How big is your attic? You'd need a BIG antenna
from up there. I'd go for the Winegard 8200P, but that's probably too big for your attic. Can you get this from Tri-State?

https://www.tselectronic.com/winegard/hd7084.html

radioinsomnia

10-30-07, 01:48 PM

From Robert Feder's Sun-Times column today (sorry, I apparently can't post a link because this is my third post here):

Viewers who hoped to see the fourth and final game of the World Series in high definition Sunday were thwarted by Fox-owned WFLD-Channel 32.

"How is it possible that the folks at WFLD don't know that the transmitter is not broadcasting properly?" one exasperated HD viewer wrote.

No response from the station's management.

I don't know, but it sounded to me like engineering was very aware of the problem and was doing the best they could with an unexpected failure. The analog-to-digital transition period is clearly a strange time. I expect that major-market TV stations will have backup DTV/HDTV transmitters in 2009, but it's probably not the case now when they're maintaining two signals. As someone pointed out earlier, at least they had a digital signal (although it was SD) for most of the night, unlike the 2005 Super Bowl.

That said, I'd like to think that station management would tell Feder what the deal is.

carlhirsch

10-31-07, 10:50 AM

Any news on what WGN is going to do with its 9.2 spectrum now that The Tube is dead and gone?

And has WYCC started broadcasting their digital sub-channels yet?

cheer

10-31-07, 04:14 PM

Now might be the time, to get WFLD. :) Might as well make sure you're on the digital bandwagon now. How big is your attic? You'd need a BIG antenna
from up there. I'd go for the Winegard 8200P, but that's probably too big for your attic. Can you get this from Tri-State?

https://www.tselectronic.com/winegard/hd7084.html
I'm not going to bother with the attic -- if I get a new antenna, it's going outside, so the 8200P is probably the best bet. I really want to get WBBM-DT.

Still would like to know why I can't get WFLD anymore though; I watched it regularly for a long time. It's just weird.

sebenste

10-31-07, 04:41 PM

Any news on what WGN is going to do with its 9.2 spectrum now that The Tube is dead and gone?

And has WYCC started broadcasting their digital sub-channels yet?

No, and WYCC is probably working on the problems they currently have right now. Even though the MHZ Worldview says WYCC is up and running with it, it obviously isn't. But let's see what happens...occasionally, contracts start at the beginning of the month, so there's even a chance it could be on tomorrow. It should be soon, though...

sebenste

10-31-07, 04:43 PM

I'm not going to bother with the attic -- if I get a new antenna, it's going outside, so the 8200P is probably the best bet. I really want to get WBBM-DT.

Still would like to know why I can't get WFLD anymore though; I watched it regularly for a long time. It's just weird.

You got me. And if you want WBBM, the 8200P from your location is the way to go. On a rotor, if you want Milwaukee or Grand Rapids or Rockford.

And this weekend, given the weather pattern I see next week, could be the last time or one of the last times to get up on the roof to do it...for all you Ramm stragglers... :D

sebenste

11-01-07, 06:43 PM

Well, the "saga" of where WOCK-LD winds up took an interesting turn. WOCK-LD, as you might remember, was denied an application to have a companion channel on channel 6, as they weren't there first. Now, they have applied to
run 300 watts on channel 4, right next to WBBM-DT. Here's a switch: WBBM could actually cause a bit of interference to WOCK, instead of WBBM getting interference from anything and everything. How far do you think 300 watts will go on channel 4 from Hancock? Well, how far can you throw a stone with a broken arm? :D

This probably will go through, unlike the last application. And as you might guess, it's strongly directional with a lobe to the southwest, to protect WTMJ-TV in Milwaukee, and whatever else in Michigan and/or Indiana.

As an aside: remember when WBBM-DT first signed on, and caused problems with VCR's on channel 3? Well, many got changed to channel 4. And, many cable systems leak like crazy, and with Comcast shutting down analog except for locals, it will be interesting to see what happens when channel 4 gets all messed up on their system (and others). And if your VCR or whatever is set to channel 4 in Chicago or the nearby southwest burbs, beware!

dmaster

11-02-07, 02:10 PM

I'm moving to SW Naperville next month.

Antenna Web puts me at 32 miles from the towers in Chicago, so how realistic is it to get OTA using an antenna in the attic. In the attic we could put a monster antenna, but if it went outside it would probably have to be smaller and we'll have to dealer with getting approval from the HOA :rolleyes:

So has anyone done this and what type of antenna did you use?

You should be able to do it easily. I'm 33 miles away, between Naperville and Aurora. I've put a relatively small Antennas Direct (same as Terrestrial Digital) V4 MKII in my attic with a Channel Master 7777 pre-amp. I got all the Chicago digitals, including WBBM (2.1). Some of the time I could also get 56 from Gary as well. Occasionally, weather or other interference gave a problem on WBBM. I added a "four bow-tie" UHF antenna pointed off axis to improve 56.1 and 56.2 while leaving the V4 MKII pointed for the best VHF (WBBM) reception. Oh, this works well since the 7777 can combine separate VHF and UHF antennas. Truth be told, if I didn't want to try for 56.1, the UHF antenna would be completely unnecessary. If you can mount your antenna outdoors, or you can use a bigger antenna, you should get perfect reception.

Dan (Woj...)

zippyfrog

11-04-07, 06:06 PM

I noticed that today, 26.1 and 26.2 are showing up today on 27.3 and 27.4 on my television. Why is that happening? Did I do something wrong on my television that would cause this to happen?

hvs10trk

11-04-07, 07:53 PM

I noticed that today, 26.1 and 26.2 are showing up today on 27.3 and 27.4 on my television. Why is that happening? Did I do something wrong on my television that would cause this to happen?

Likely no. Last time this happened it was on our end. Was running good for awhile.

LYU370

11-05-07, 10:37 AM

Finally, finally got all the wiring straightened out on the 8200 on the roof. Turns out I had one bad connector, replaced it and poof! WBBM came blasting in at an 82% signal. Highest I've ever gotten at this house or my last house. For the heck of it, I turned the antenna towards Milwaukee & Rockford before I tightened everything down to see if I could get anything. Wasn't counting on picking anything up, and unfortunately I didn't, although I did pick up about 75% of the Chicago stations off the back side of the antenna when it was pointed towards Rockford. Thought that was pretty amusing.

But I'm getting WBBM, and that's all that matters! :)

jmfordpromo

11-05-07, 02:10 PM

sebenste

11-05-07, 02:42 PM

LYU370

11-05-07, 03:47 PM

hvs10trk

11-05-07, 09:27 PM

zippyfrog

11-07-07, 10:02 PM

Should be fixed as of 9:30am this morning.

Thanks for the update on that.

I have another question, and I posted this back in May. I was given advice on how to increase my reception on Channel 7 digital signal by replacing the cable between my antenna and adjusting the antenna's alignment slightly. However, for about the last week, I have been able to get no signal whatsoever. Every other channel has a signal of at least 60% at all times (out of 12 bars on my TV, CBS is at 10 bars, NBC is at 11 bars, ABC has 0, WGN has 8, WTTW has 10, Channel 20 has 8 bars, Channel 26 has 11, Fox has 10, and Channel 50 has 6). ABC is the only one that has zero bars. Ever since the weather has gotten a lot colder and the trees have lost their leaves, I have gotten no signal on that channel. Is there anything else I can do to improve reception other than what was suggested to me in May? All summer, ABC had great reception, but now nothing. I live in Wayne, where there are a lot of trees, but there is nothing in terms of interference that I am aware of. Suggestions?

sebenste

11-07-07, 11:06 PM

You think so... Since I do have an AP8700 on there. Antennaweb shows that I'm 30.4 miles from Chicago, 57.1 from Rockford and 75.4 from Milwaukee. From the roof I do see a line of tall trees maybe 2-4 miles away (Forest Preserve) which could be interfering with the signal to Milwaukee & Rockford.

It doubt it. I bet you have a case like a buddy of mine who lives about 7 miles south of DeKalb: he is 85 miles away from Peoria and the Quad Cities. But those signals only lock after dusk, when the noise floor in the atmosphere comes down low enough to get him to lock those stations. During the day, maybe he can lock PSIP on one or two channels, but no picture. Even during the winter, it's the same thing. I bet you're that close with Rockford, and at least WMVS-DT 8.X in Milwaukee.

You are locking WBBM in from 35 miles away with an 82% signal. Even though they are at 4.4 kw, only about 2 kw is actually directed your way. Let's just say you're already pulling rabbits out where the sun don't shine with that thing! :D

BTW, did you do a scan or try to punch in the direct numbers? I have a channel guide available here:

http://weather.niu.edu/dtvstations.xls

That should help you if you decide to look for either market. My pick is on you locking WQRF-DT and maybe WTVO-DT in Rockford, and then WMVS-DT in Milwaukee. Their channel 8 is a real blowtorch.

sebenste

11-07-07, 11:14 PM

Thanks for the update on that.

I have another question, and I posted this back in May. I was given advice on how to increase my reception on Channel 7 digital signal by replacing the cable between my antenna and adjusting the antenna's alignment slightly. However, for about the last week, I have been able to get no signal whatsoever. Every other channel has a signal of at least 60% at all times (out of 12 bars on my TV, CBS is at 10 bars, NBC is at 11 bars, ABC has 0, WGN has 8, WTTW has 10, Channel 20 has 8 bars, Channel 26 has 11, Fox has 10, and Channel 50 has 6). ABC is the only one that has zero bars. Ever since the weather has gotten a lot colder and the trees have lost their leaves, I have gotten no signal on that channel. Is there anything else I can do to improve reception other than what was suggested to me in May? All summer, ABC had great reception, but now nothing. I live in Wayne, where there are a lot of trees, but there is nothing in terms of interference that I am aware of. Suggestions?

What antenna do you have again? I have a doggone good clue what's happening. WPWR-DT 50.1 is physically broadcasting on 51, and it barely locks. WLS-DT broadcasts on 52. And, I see no mention of 60.1 or 66.1, which broadcasts on channels 59 and 53, respectively. If you aren't getting the latter two:

1. You're still losing too much signal between the antenna and the TV, but since you have RG-6 now, I have to ask: how long is the cable run, and how many splits do you have?

2. What antenna and preamplifier do you have?

goaliebob99

11-08-07, 06:45 PM

Hey is there anything going on with WYCC, I was able to get it pritty reliabliy at one time... But ever sence I have came back from Iraq it seems that WYCC is non existant here in manteno. Everything else comes in in the 90's/80's. Did their transmitter go out and are they in HD yet?

zippyfrog

11-09-07, 04:48 PM

What antenna do you have again? I have a doggone good clue what's happening. WPWR-DT 50.1 is physically broadcasting on 51, and it barely locks. WLS-DT broadcasts on 52. And, I see no mention of 60.1 or 66.1, which broadcasts on channels 59 and 53, respectively. If you aren't getting the latter two:

1. You're still losing too much signal between the antenna and the TV, but since you have RG-6 now, I have to ask: how long is the cable run, and how many splits do you have?

2. What antenna and preamplifier do you have?

I don't have any signal of 60.1, and 66.1 is only 1-2 bars. I do have RG-6 from the antenna to the amplifier, but the cable through my wall is not RG-6. The RG-59 is about 100 feet through the walls from the attic. I also have an AP-8275 82 channel antenna pre-amplifier. Does that help you at all? As I mentioned, my signal was fine throughout the summer, but once the leaves started falling and the temperatures have turned colder, I can't get anything on 7.1, 7.2, or 7.3 - there are zero bars on my TV.

mikemikeb

11-10-07, 12:48 AM

sebenste

11-10-07, 01:50 AM

RG-59 is unusually lossy with high frequencies like WLS-DT 52 (their lowish power level doesn't help, either), and 100 feet of RG-59 REALLY makes it bad. No wonder you're having trouble. Replace it with quad-shielded RG-6 (Gold Series from Radio Shack works) if you can. This should fix your problem.

Mike^2b nailed it. You're losing *10 db* of signal at those frequencies. In other words, 90% of it, thanks to that cable! Replace that and 60 and 66 will almost assuredly come in as well. Heck, even regular RG-6 would work fine for you, as long as you don't have any electrical interference. Seeing that you're locking WBBM, I say regular RG-6 will work fantastic for you.

The reason why you were getting it over the summer and why suddenly it became an issue? Bar strength doesn't necessarily mean good signal strength. For example, WGN-DT pegs my signal meteter, but I don't get a strong signal from my attic out here in DeKalb. That's because even though the signal is not very strong, the tuner can still see all the bits. And that's what matters. You were right at the threshold all summer long. For who knows what reason, it got pushed over the edge when the fall came.

longwong

11-10-07, 10:17 AM

sebenste

11-10-07, 11:26 AM

You still lose some signal over RG6 with the higher frequencies; I can attest to that. I have two splits right at the exit from the preamp, one about 20 ft long and the other about 60 ft. The 60 ft lead is where both 60.1 and 66.1 drop to about 70%-80% signal level on a good day, and they will break up on an extremely windy day. In contrast to that, on the 20 ft lead those two stations have the same signal level as all the other Chicago majors.

Long is right here; you are still going to lose somewhat less than 50% of your signal, total using RG-6 on a 100' run. But that's a lot better than the 90%+ you are losing now.

Gilbert recommended a higher quality cable in response to that problem, tri-shielded Belden 1694A cable. I don't have the desire to rip out my installation at this point since I went through a lot of trouble only a year ago. But if you're seriously considering ripping out your cable and starting again from the ground up, it would be to your benefit to go for the absolute best cable that you can get your hands on.

That still might be overkill. It's obvious that his signal is right "on the edge".
So a 50% improvement in signal should take care of it. The 1694A gives you an additional significant improvement of 25% or more, and based on how it is manufactured and designed, actually rejects considerably more interference than quad-shielded cable! However, for most folks, quad-shielded RG-6 is fine. Heck, for many folks, regular RG-6 is fine unless you are rural, near FM and cell phone towers, or electrical interference sources. In the sticks where I am, however, every dB counts. I have pondered ripping out my quad shield and putting in the tri-shield RG-6, but since I can lock 60.1 with no problem,
and signal drop off noticably starts at channel 60 for my system (but analog 66 isn't terrible), the benefits will be pretty much zero. And certainly for nothing I would watch or can't get already.

On the other hand, come 2009, it has been my understanding that channels 51-69 will be reallocated to something else. If that's still the case, then you may not have as big of a problem if you can wait 12-15 months. After the analog shutdown, channel 50 may be the highest frequency that you'll have to worry about. At 1 million watts you shouldn't have a problem, but you might be able to get away with using a separate signal booster near the TV set to compensate if it doesn't lock.

Actually, it's channels 52-69. WPWR-DT 50.1 is on channel 51, and they will stay put after analog shutdown. After 52-69 go away, WXFT goes to channel 50; WGBO-DT will go to channel 38, where analog PAX is now. Thus, my suggestion remains to just go with generic RG-6. Beyond that, any personal benefit you get will be minimal if not downright zero.

There might be one justification for going tri-shield Belden 1694A RG-6. WWME-LD ("MeTV") is going to be on channel 39 by the end of the year at 1.6 kilowatts...a mere 1,600 watts. If you want to get that, or any other low power signing on in the next year or two around your area (such as channels 18, 22 and 40, all near Aurora, and a few others), then the Belden 1694A would be a good choice for "insurance purposes".

sebenste

11-10-07, 02:05 PM

WCPX-DT 38.1 will be going HD first quarter 2008 (by March 31).

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=935930

zippyfrog

11-10-07, 02:18 PM

Long is right here; you are still going to lose somewhat less than 50% of your signal, total using RG-6 on a 100' run. But that's a lot better than the 90%+ you are losing now.

That still might be overkill. It's obvious that his signal is right "on the edge".
So a 50% improvement in signal should take care of it. The 1694A gives you an additional significant improvement of 25% or more, and based on how it is manufactured and designed, actually rejects considerably more interference than quad-shielded cable! However, for most folks, quad-shielded RG-6 is fine. Heck, for many folks, regular RG-6 is fine unless you are rural, near FM and cell phone towers, or electrical interference sources. In the sticks where I am, however, every dB counts. I have pondered ripping out my quad shield and putting in the tri-shield RG-6, but since I can lock 60.1 with no problem,
and signal drop off noticably starts at channel 60 for my system (but analog 66 isn't terrible), the benefits will be pretty much zero. And certainly for nothing I would watch or can't get already.

Actually, it's channels 52-69. WPWR-DT 50.1 is on channel 51, and they will stay put after analog shutdown. After 52-69 go away, WXFT goes to channel 50; WGBO-DT will go to channel 38, where analog PAX is now. Thus, my suggestion remains to just go with generic RG-6. Beyond that, any personal benefit you get will be minimal if not downright zero.

There might be one justification for going tri-shield Belden 1694A RG-6. WWME-LD ("MeTV") is going to be on channel 39 by the end of the year at 1.6 kilowatts...a mere 1,600 watts. If you want to get that, or any other low power signing on in the next year or two around your area (such as channels 18, 22 and 40, all near Aurora, and a few others), then the Belden 1694A would be a good choice for "insurance purposes".

Thanks for all the feedback from everyone! I like reading into all this stuff and why things work the way they do. One thing I decided to do was to take my TV up to the attic, and connect it directly to the antenna. So, from my antenna, I have about 30 feet of RG-6 cable that goes into the pre-amp, and I plugged the TV into the other side of the pre-amp - I took out all the other splitters completely. From the pre-amp, I had a 25 foot RG-6 cable into the back of my TV. Still, my digital signal for ABC got zero bars. So I am really at a loss for what happened over the past week. I went outside to check to make sure there were no leaves on the roof or if there was anything else I could find that would cause interference, but I couldn't find anything. Is there anything else obvious missing that I should check to see what happened to my signal? I would have thought that as the leaves fell off the trees, the signal would have gotten better?!?

bclbob

11-10-07, 05:04 PM

Anyone else seeing black screens on WLS-DT 7.1 7.2 and 7.3 OTA? It's a wierd one. On a DirecTV HR20, got good signal strength but just black screens. Interestingly WLS HD via DirecTV is fine :confused:

sebenste

11-11-07, 02:19 AM

Thanks for all the feedback from everyone! I like reading into all this stuff and why things work the way they do. One thing I decided to do was to take my TV up to the attic, and connect it directly to the antenna. So, from my antenna, I have about 30 feet of RG-6 cable that goes into the pre-amp, and I plugged the TV into the other side of the pre-amp - I took out all the other splitters completely. From the pre-amp, I had a 25 foot RG-6 cable into the back of my TV. Still, my digital signal for ABC got zero bars. So I am really at a loss for what happened over the past week. I went outside to check to make sure there were no leaves on the roof or if there was anything else I could find that would cause interference, but I couldn't find anything. Is there anything else obvious missing that I should check to see what happened to my signal? I would have thought that as the leaves fell off the trees, the signal would have gotten better?!?

It should have. But, leaves on trees not only change the character of the signal if they are partially or totally blocking your view...but even a forest changes things. Theoretically, I would have expected a gain of signal as the leaves came off. But for whatever reason, this is not the case. I'm at a loss, quite frankly. It would have been interesting to see if 60.1 and 66.1 still came in. What antenna are you using again?

And even better, can the antenna be moved to another side of the attic?
Corners are usually best, or close to the wall facing the stations you are trying to receive.

hvs10trk

11-11-07, 07:15 AM

There might be one justification for going tri-shield Belden 1694A RG-6. WWME-LD ("MeTV") is going to be on channel 39 by the end of the year at 1.6 kilowatts...a mere 1,600 watts. If you want to get that, or any other low power signing on in the next year or two around your area (such as channels 18, 22 and 40, all near Aurora, and a few others), then the Belden 1694A would be a good choice for "insurance purposes".

Belden 1694A is great stuff!! We use that for long haul data (300'+) for ASI/DS3/HD-SDI. Very robust!!

cheer

11-11-07, 04:40 PM

Still would like to know why I can't get WFLD anymore though; I watched it regularly for a long time. It's just weird.

Checked WFLD again yesterday, and now it's fine. Crystal clear, booming in with 94+ signal.

Go figure.

t6sam

11-12-07, 12:09 AM

sebenste

11-12-07, 12:57 AM

I would appreciate any input on what brand/model of antenna to install for the following application:

Attic installation in a two story house in Elmhurst IL. 96 degrees and 16.0 miles to Sears/John Hancock antennas.

Attic size (I do not want to mount it outside) and price is not a concern.

Have 80 feet of RG-6 (quad shield) coax. running from attic to TV.

Want to be able to pick up WBBM CH2.

Here are my questions...

Looking for best brands/models for this installation. Is bow-tie antennas better or worse than the rod style of antenna?

Looked at Winegard HD8200P, HD7048P, Channel Master 3678 on the internet. Is it possible to get too large of an antenna?

Should I use a pre-amplifier?

Thanks very much,
Sam

Hello Sam, and welcome to the forum!

For indoor use, bigger is usually better. That's because in attics, signal reflections (known as multipath) occur and disrupt the digital signals. On analog, you see them as "ghosts".

How big can you fit in your attic? An HD7084P would get you WBBM and everything else fine, including the new low power stations off of Sears and Hancock about to come online, or will do so in the not-too-distant future.
With that antenna, I suggest you not use an amplifier, unless you are experiencing dropouts or no signal. You can get it at Tri-State electronics
(www.tselectronic.com) up in Mount Prospect and save yourself on shipping by driving up there and getting it.

https://www.tselectronic.com/winegard/hd7084.html

LYU370

11-12-07, 11:15 AM

Looked at Winegard HD8200P, HD7048P, Channel Master 3678 on the internet. Is it possible to get too large of an antenna?

You can never have too big of an antenna. :D Like Gilbert said, you'll lose a lot of signal in the attic. I had a 7084 in my attic at my old townhouse, managed to get it up there, but when I moved I couldn't get it out of there. Unless you have a massive attic, I don't think you'll fit an 8200 in there. I now have an 8200 on the roof at my new house, this thing is huge, but until you actually see it, you really have no idea about how massive this thing is. It is literally bigger than my SUV!

radioinsomnia

11-12-07, 10:41 PM

sebenste

11-13-07, 12:47 AM

Hi Gilbert,

The programming list at the beginning of the thread could probably use an update, since The Tube (RIP) is long gone from WGN 9.2 and seems to have been replaced by a pointless simulcast of 9.1.

(Also, hello! I used to watch you on WREX when I was living out that way, and I believe you know a few of my storm chasing friends from College of DuPage. :))

Thanks, Radio! Just updated it and fixed WYCC's subchannels as well. Been a crazy summer, and that happened during all the severe weather (didn't hang around much on this board when that was going on. Nothing like watching your place of employment go somewhat under water, with cars floating outside your window!

And I hope you enjoyed my time at the 'REX. I did, but the one thing I do not miss was getting up at 3:30 AM every day. That's when I go to bed now! ;) :D

Take care!

lgdavis

11-13-07, 10:53 AM

You still lose some signal over RG6 with the higher frequencies; I can attest to that.

Gilbert recommended a higher quality cable in response to that problem, tri-shielded Belden 1694A cable. I don't have the desire to rip out my installation at this point since I went through a lot of trouble only a year ago.

If you put a preamp right at the antenna, you can stop worrying about cable losses - even if you're using cheap RG 59. The preamp will more than make up for any reasonable losses in your cable and splitters within the house.
The Channel Master CM 7777, (I'm using one), works great and is only $60.-

jkseger

11-13-07, 12:36 PM

Good for you! Wise choice.

Correct. He needs to point it at Sears Tower.

You just said the magic word: compromise. Compromise what? Size. But bigger size = more consistent reception. I leave it up to you to decide if that is a good idea. :) 7084P. Trust me on this one.

Use the Winegard AP-8700 preamplifier to give that signal kick. That will overcome the losses from the splits and connectors, which are unavoidable.

Thanks again. Have a great day!!

John

You too! Take care.[/QUOTE]

Hi all,

So I've been trying over the last couple of weeks to get any OTAHD antenna mounted on my house but, no one seems to want to or think they can do the install. The installation techs (very reputable company I'm told..was referred by 2 companies) that were over yesterday said that I didn't have a good pitch to install the tripod; that pitch would need a tripod that had different-sized legs. Not to mention, the roof is over 30 feet in the air so, there was some hesitency there as well. Does anyone know of a product that would work on a non-traditional pitched roof? I cannot do a chimney install so my only other choice is the attic space that we have. Unfortunately, the attic space cannot fit a 7082P because the antenna is too wide due to the VHF elements. The installers that were out suggested getting a UHF only antenna. I understand that I would need to forego CBS but, can anyone recommend a UHF only antenna for me that is nicely sized and that would be suitable for Elmhurst, for which I am 13 miles and 89 degress from the Sears Tower.

Your help on these issues and any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

John

Rammitinski

11-13-07, 03:09 PM

I'd suggest the Channel Master 4228, because that at least might get you WBBM and WLS when they eventually move to VHF 12 and 7, respectively.

You can usually find it at Fry's in Downers Grove.

jmfordpromo

11-13-07, 03:48 PM

Detailed information on WYCC's website: http://www.wycc.org/media/mhz/aboutmhz.aspx

Also - Check out the home page which has a sample video stream to play!

sebenste

11-13-07, 04:32 PM

Today, the FCC released an application for filing that shows WWME-LD to increase power a tad and increase coverage in the northwest, west and southwest suburbs.

On page 8 of this application, you will see the new coverage map.

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=588512

You can also see that they had to sign an interference agreement with TBN's translator W40BY on channel 40. But, since they did, the FCC should approve this with no problem.

And as per announcement earlier, word I have is that WWME-LD is still slated to sign on by the end of the year, with 1.8 kilowatts if this gets approved; otherwise, it would be at 1.6 kilowatts.

Rammitinski

11-13-07, 06:21 PM

I guess it's more important for them to send that signal out into the middle of the lake than to send it out here.

longwong

11-13-07, 11:12 PM

sebenste

11-14-07, 12:33 AM

I guess it's more important for them to send that signal out into the middle of the lake than to send it out here.

For now, they have to protect WQRF-TV (FOX) analog 39 in Rockford. So that explains why they have to be at 1.8 kw. Oh yeah, and channel 40 analog on Sears doesn't help, either.

t6sam

11-14-07, 01:17 AM

Hello Sam, and welcome to the forum!

For indoor use, bigger is usually better. That's because in attics, signal reflections (known as multipath) occur and disrupt the digital signals. On analog, you see them as "ghosts".

How big can you fit in your attic? An HD7084P would get you WBBM and everything else fine, including the new low power stations off of Sears and Hancock about to come online, or will do so in the not-too-distant future.
With that antenna, I suggest you not use an amplifier, unless you are experiencing dropouts or no signal. You can get it at Tri-State electronics
(www.tselectronic.com) up in Mount Prospect and save yourself on shipping by driving up there and getting it.

https://www.tselectronic.com/winegard/hd7084.html

Few more questions for you Gilbert,

If I opted to go with a UHF antenna only and watch WBBM using my present antenna, what model antenna would you recommend?

Since I'm located in Elmhurst, I would guess a directional UHF antenna would be best?

Any recommendations on how to connect the VHF antenna to the HD UHF antenna?

In 2009 when WBBM changes freq's, will I then be able to pick it up on my HD UHF antenna?

Thanks again for your help,
Sam

Rammitinski

11-14-07, 02:09 AM

Any recommendations on how to connect the VHF antenna to the HD UHF antenna?You didn't mention before that you already had an antenna up there.

Is it truly a VHF-only model? What kind of reception do you get with it now?

Rammitinski

11-14-07, 03:51 AM

For now, they have to protect WQRF-TV (FOX) analog 39 in Rockford. So that explains why they have to be at 1.8 kw. Oh yeah, and channel 40 analog on Sears doesn't help, either.Still no word on WOCH-LP's plans yet?

t6sam

11-14-07, 05:20 AM

You didn't mention before that you already had an antenna up there.

Is it truly a VHF-only model? What kind of reception do you get with it now?

Hi,
My father bought an HDTV (SONY) a few months ago but watches it connected to the very old antenna located in the attic. The pictures a joke for todays standards. I wouldn't mind installing a new large VHF/UHF HD antenna in the attic but if my father sees the size of it he might have a heart attack. So... I thought I'd might be easier to sell him on the upgrade if I install a new UHF antenna that seem to be a bit smaller and connect it up w/ the old VHF antenna. Then my folks could watch all but CH2 in HD. Hopefully in about a year they can start picking up CH2 when it shifts to its new frequency? Sound like a good idea?

Sam

t6sam

11-14-07, 05:20 AM

hvs10trk

11-14-07, 08:55 AM

I guess it's more important for them to send that signal out into the middle of the lake than to send it out here.
????? The pattern is a Dielectric M which is the best pattern/most economical for Chicago. (No sense in cooking the lake) It should get out pretty far. (Minus us NW'ers that have WQRF to cope with for another year or so). Because of the RF filtering we are using there shouldn't be any worries between 39 and 40.

sebenste

11-14-07, 12:04 PM

Hi,
My father bought an HDTV (SONY) a few months ago but watches it connected to the very old antenna located in the attic. The pictures a joke for todays standards. I wouldn't mind installing a new large VHF/UHF HD antenna in the attic but if my father sees the size of it he might have a heart attack. So... I thought I'd might be easier to sell him on the upgrade if I install a new UHF antenna that seem to be a bit smaller and connect it up w/ the old VHF antenna. Then my folks could watch all but CH2 in HD. Hopefully in about a year they can start picking up CH2 when it shifts to its new frequency? Sound like a good idea?

Sam

Hi Sam,

Before you run out and get any new antenna, can you describe the antenna you have up there now, how big/small it is, or even better, take a picture of it and post it to the forum here? Unless you can somewhow get a brand name and model number off of it. You are close enough that if you have a preamplifier or amplifier, the antenna you now have might do the trick.

djanu

11-14-07, 02:04 PM

Hi,

I am in process of purchasing new Samsung LCD TV ?
How is overall quality with Off-Air HDTV Antenna ?
Can I use indoor Off-Air HDTV Antenna ? I do not have too much space available.
I never had one, what is good Off-Air HDTV Antenna?

Thanks,
djanu

moxie1617

11-14-07, 02:20 PM

Hi,
My father bought an HDTV (SONY) a few months ago but watches it connected to the very old antenna located in the attic. The pictures a joke for todays standards. .....................
Sam

Would you elaborate on what you mean by the picture is a joke. It doesn't make sense with an HDTV. If you are watching a digital broadcast and not getting any breakups or pixelation that's the best you can do. To me, watching an analog SD broadcast is the only context in which your statement makes sense.:confused:

hvs10trk

11-14-07, 04:16 PM

Not to mention there is no such thing as an "HDTV" antenna. An antenna is an antenna. They all pick up RF. They only possible difference is in the craftmanship. Nothing else.

sebenste

11-14-07, 05:24 PM

Still no word on WOCH-LP's plans yet?

Nope, they haven't applied for a digital companion channel yet.

Rammitinski

11-15-07, 02:13 AM

Ok, thanks - just checking up.

Rammitinski

11-15-07, 02:15 AM

????? The pattern is a Dielectric M which is the best pattern/most economical for Chicago.Yeah, I know. ;) I just think it's funny the way they actually show the signal range going out over the lake like that.

Like who's gonna get it? Some guy out in a lighthouse? :)

Rammitinski

11-15-07, 02:27 AM

Would you elaborate on what you mean by the picture is a joke. It doesn't make sense with an HDTV. If you are watching a digital broadcast and not getting any breakups or pixelation that's the best you can do. To me, watching an analog SD broadcast is the only context in which your statement makes sense.:confused:it sounds like he's under the erroneous assumption that all digital is all-HD, so that could have something to do with what he's talking about, also.

Maybe he's seeing a lot of SD digital, but it just doesn't look quite as good as the stuff on the TV's in the store did. You know how that goes.

Maybe he should get Dish, with the VOOM channels. If he wants HD 24/7, that's about the only thing out there. Maybe Disc. HD Theater, but I'm not even sure of that. Gonna cost a bit more than what you can get with an antenna, though.

hvs10trk

11-15-07, 06:21 AM

Yeah, I know. ;) I just think it's funny the way they actually show the signal range going out over the lake like that.

Like who's gonna get it? Some guy out in a lighthouse? :)

Well they need TV too. :D

moxie1617

11-15-07, 10:14 AM

it sounds like he's under the erroneous assumption that all digital is all-HD, so that could have something to do with what he's talking about, also.

Maybe he's seeing a lot of SD digital, but it just doesn't look quite as good as the stuff on the TV's in the store did. You know how that goes.

Maybe he should get Dish, with the VOOM channels. If he wants HD 24/7, that's about the only thing out there. Maybe Disc. HD Theater, but I'm not even sure of that. Gonna cost a bit more than what you can get with an antenna, though.

Yup, it could be that he is looking at a SD digital broadcast. They can look really bad if the new TV is still in torch mode as shipped from the factory.

Hopefully t6sam will be back. All he may have to do is adjust the brightness and contrast a little and run new cable from the antenna. Even if the antenna is old, the attic probably protected it from corrsion. All he may need is a new run of RG-6 and his dad will be good to go.

invaluewetrust

11-15-07, 03:12 PM

I am using a small single-pole antenna that came with a HD USB stick that's hooked up to my computer. I found a "sweet spot" for that cheap antenna so that it currently picks up everything at 55-70% strength, including WBBM (2-1). The only signals that momentarily drop out on occation are (in order of frequency) WTTW (11-1), WPWR (50-1) and ABC (7-1).

Since the set-up that I had worked well enough to be watchable, I bought an amplified indoor HDTV antenna at Radio Shack to replace the cheap antenna, but it didn't help at all. It couldn't even pick up WBBM, so I plan to return it. It came with a 20 dB signal amplifier that I tested with the cheap antenna, but it didn't seem to help much.

So now I'm trying to get from 55-70% signal strength to 60-75% strength to keep the picture quality at 100% at all times. It seems like I'm pretty close already, so I'm hoping to do this in the most cost-effective (er, cheapest) way possible. So I'm seeking advice with the following:

1. Will a signal booster/amplifier help at all in my circumstance? If so, any recommendations?
2. I'm getting 55-70% now with clear skies, but can bad weather make that worse?
3. Any indoor antenna recommendations? For me so far, it seems cheaper works better.
4. Where I live (about 10 miles from Chicago), what signal strength should I expect to get?

veets

11-15-07, 10:59 PM

Wow... that's a bit different than the FCC contour map. With the CP already in place, the signal range dies out before you hit Rt 53. The new applied power would put the line about another five miles further west, but it still seems of little consolation to those of us in the suburbs. Hope they keep it on 26-2 just in case.

There is no way WWME will get out to Grayslake at that low power (at least not to my attic antenna). Are they staying on 26-2? Can they crank up the power after analog shutdown?

hvs10trk

11-16-07, 09:13 AM

There is no way WWME will get out to Grayslake at that low power (at least not to my attic antenna). Don't be so pessamistic. :) The signal contour you see at FCC.gov is not a "this is only where you'll get us" area. Acutal coverage should be a bit larger than shown. Are they staying on 26-2? I cannot comment on the plans of the powers to be but don't assume we'll drop 26.2 just because 23.1 starts up. Can they crank up the power after analog shutdown? Pending a FCC blessing after Feb 17, 2009, I am sure we'll be lookin to increase our power. :D

sebenste

11-16-07, 05:21 PM

Hi,
My father bought an HDTV (SONY) a few months ago but watches it connected to the very old antenna located in the attic. The pictures a joke for todays standards. I wouldn't mind installing a new large VHF/UHF HD antenna in the attic but if my father sees the size of it he might have a heart attack. So... I thought I'd might be easier to sell him on the upgrade if I install a new UHF antenna that seem to be a bit smaller and connect it up w/ the old VHF antenna. Then my folks could watch all but CH2 in HD. Hopefully in about a year they can start picking up CH2 when it shifts to its new frequency? Sound like a good idea?

Sam

You may be surprised what you get out of digital! You may only need to tweak the antenna and maybe get a preamplifier. See what you get from your existing antenna first.

tvmicrowave2002

11-16-07, 07:56 PM

You may be surprised what you get out of digital! You may only need to tweak the antenna and maybe get a preamplifier. See what you get from your existing antenna first.

Keep in mind that the contours shown by the FCC are 51 dBu and not 41 dBu like displayed on full power stations. In simple terms the signal goes further than displayed by the FCC, about 5 more miles out, the rough equiv. of 41 dBu.

sebenste

11-17-07, 01:31 AM

Keep in mind that the contours shown by the FCC are 51 dBu and not 41 dBu like displayed on full power stations. In simple terms the signal goes further than displayed by the FCC, about 5 more miles out, the rough equiv. of 41 dBu.

(Slaps forehead) D'oh! I forgot about that. Thanks, Tvm, you are absolutely right. I'll also say this...not the greatest analogy, but: If you have a light bulb, but block the light from reaching several directions and redirecting it with a mirror, in the areas that are lit, you'll get more light. Same principle applies here.

t6sam

11-17-07, 03:38 PM

sebenste

11-17-07, 04:47 PM

Hello Gilbert and/or anyone else who can help. I opted to buy the HD7084P antenna. The old one in the attic was junk. Installation for the HD7084P was very smooth. The analog stations look much better but I was only able to pick up CH2 WBBM in HD. I have not yet installed the RG-6/U coax so this might be the problem? Presently I'm using RG-59. Is this the problem or should I look into anything else?

Thanks to all of you for your help,
Sam

Hello Sam,

Good choice! And while I cannot be sure why the only digital channel you are getting is WBBM-DT...regardless of the reason, you really should replace the cable with RG-6. Do that first, and we'll take it from there.

An aside to the cool WBBM-DT engineers monitoring this board: If I ever visit your plant, I expect to see his original post framed and posted prominently on a wall somewhere! :D

sebenste

11-17-07, 04:54 PM

And you live in Kane, McHenry, DeKalb, and Lake counties...

And you have DTV OTA tuner with antenna on a rotor...

You will be having fun on Sunday, 11/18/07.

http://www.the506.com/nflmaps/2007-11-CBS.html

WIFR-DT in Rockford has chosen to show the Oakland-Minnesota game on 41.1 (23.1); WDJT-DT in Milwaukee has chosen to show the Pittsburg-NY Jets game on 46-1 (58.1), and WBBM-DT 3.1 (2.1) has chosen to show Kansas City vs. Indianapolis.

t6sam

11-17-07, 05:47 PM

Sounds like a good plan. Does the "U" in RG-6/U designate it as quad shield?

Hello Sam,

Good choice! And while I cannot be sure why the only digital channel you are getting is WBBM-DT...regardless of the reason, you really should replace the cable with RG-6. Do that first, and we'll take it from there.

An aside to the cool WBBM-DT engineers monitoring this board: If I ever visit your plant, I expect to see his original post framed and posted prominently on a wall somewhere! :D

sebenste

11-17-07, 06:32 PM

Sounds like a good plan. Does the "U" in RG-6/U designate it as quad shield?

Nah, the "U" stands for "Universal". Standard RG-6= RG-6/U.

goaliebob99

11-17-07, 11:49 PM

If anyone knows the engeneers for WLS AM and WGN AM, make sure you tell them that they are doing a great job on there HD signal as I was able to pick up both stations in my car with an hd radio tuner from Champaign. I went down there to see the Illini beat up on Northwestern and was impresssed to be reciving both am stations in HD from far away. Im dissapointed in the FM market for champaign as not only was there not one station doing hd. They didnt even do text for the songs like how all the stations here in chicago do!!! Or is it that im too spoiled from my chicago stations :) What ever it is Thankgod I live close to the city and not down there! I would be going nucking futz!

lgdavis

11-18-07, 12:51 PM

If anyone knows the engeneers for WLS AM and WGN AM, make sure you tell them that they are doing a great job on there HD signal

Just a great job of splattering all over the dial.
AM "HD" is the final nail in the coffin of AM Radio....

goaliebob99

11-18-07, 02:57 PM

Just a great job of splattering all over the dial.
AM "HD" is the final nail in the coffin of AM Radio....

What are you talking about? AMHD sounds awsome here. No quaity issues what so ever. I think its one of the better things AM has done.

OTA_GUY

11-19-07, 09:45 AM

Those in Elmhurst should give a Channel Master Suburban model a try - Fry's has them for $25. Yes, $25.

I get all Chicago HD stations without problems.

sebenste

11-19-07, 09:54 AM

Those in Elmhurst should give a Channel Master Suburban model a try - Fry's has them for $25. Yes, $25.

I get all Chicago HD stations without problems.

If it's on the roof, yes, it will probably work fine. In the attic, however, is a whole other ball of whacks.

lgdavis

11-19-07, 10:44 AM

What are you talking about? AMHD sounds awsome here. No quaity issues what so ever. I think its one of the better things AM has done.

Every AM station broadcasting "HD" splatters over at least two channels on either side of it, making reception of anything there impossible.

When all, or most of, the AM's start using it you can forget about ever listening to any out of town stations - especially at night.

AM will then be a 100% local-only radio service. The broadcasters are fine with that, since they don't make any $$ from out of market
listeners - but those of us who have been listening to nightime AM for years are totally disgusted and sick over it.

Rammitinski

11-19-07, 07:18 PM

Just thought I'd let everyone know that Worldview is back on again, on 20-3. It was off for the past week - they just had a music soundtrack playing.

swalve

11-19-07, 09:17 PM

Nah, the "U" stands for "Universal". Standard RG-6= RG-6/U.

Generally, in the stores, the "/u" cable will have a thicker center conductor.

dmaster

11-21-07, 03:58 PM

You too! Take care.

Hi all,

So I've been trying over the last couple of weeks to get any OTAHD antenna mounted on my house but, no one seems to want to or think they can do the install. The installation techs (very reputable company I'm told..was referred by 2 companies) that were over yesterday said that I didn't have a good pitch to install the tripod; that pitch would need a tripod that had different-sized legs. Not to mention, the roof is over 30 feet in the air so, there was some hesitency there as well. Does anyone know of a product that would work on a non-traditional pitched roof? I cannot do a chimney install so my only other choice is the attic space that we have. Unfortunately, the attic space cannot fit a 7082P because the antenna is too wide due to the VHF elements. The installers that were out suggested getting a UHF only antenna. I understand that I would need to forego CBS but, can anyone recommend a UHF only antenna for me that is nicely sized and that would be suitable for Elmhurst, for which I am 13 miles and 89 degress from the Sears Tower.

Your help on these issues and any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

John[/QUOTE]

I suggest you get a V4 MKII from Antennas Direct (www.antennasdirect.com) or from Solid Signal (www.solidsignal.com). It's small enough to fit in most attics. I've got one with a Channel Master 7777 in my attic. I'm 35 miles away (Aurora/Naperville) and I can pick up all the Chicago stations including WBBM-DT (Ch. 2.1 on 3).

Dan (Woj...)

JB81

11-23-07, 01:56 PM

sebenste

11-23-07, 06:40 PM

I live in the rockford market, about 80 miles west of chicago. I have an outdoor CM 4228 with a pre amp from Farm and Fleet about 20 feet up. I'm having problems with 13 WREX TV (analog) leaking all the down to channel 10. I also get interferrance on other channels like 52 (analog) with other rockford stations interferring. 58 (analog) actually comes in decent with 13 17 23 and 39 all mixed in one. Before I go out and buy a new QS RG-6 coax, is this due to a leaky coax cable? Or could there possible something wrong with my preamp?

Hi JB,

Actually, your questions belongs in the Rockford thread, but I'll answer it here.
How strong is your preamp? In other words, what dB of gain does it show for the VHF and UHF bands? From Byron, you shouldn't need a preamp to get Rockford, so what you are seeing is channel overloading. Without an amp, a guy in Rochelle locks Madison's PBS station in. If you are up 20', take the preamp off first, and see what happens.

jldet5

11-24-07, 09:15 PM

WillieAntenna

11-25-07, 12:36 PM

Bought a new Samsung with built in tuner and WBBM 3.1 was breaking up. I've noticed before on my other tuner PC cards that the short antenna cables from a splitter or wall jack were sometimes touchy. So I started swapping short cables I had made...rg6 quad shield with Thomas and Betts compression fittings. All of the short ones, around 25 inches, made no difference. Two of the long ones, around 44 inches, worked fine. Very weird. Perhaps I just finally got the compression fitting the way channel 3 likes it...I dunno...very weird.

Did you change out the fitting behind the wallplate? that may make the differences. Since you got the compression fitting tool, I would change out all the coax ends if you have a old style crimp or screw on fittings, but before you do that make sure you power down any amps or pre-amps that is in line to any TV's or equipments that the coax is plug in but the best is to unplug from all equipment first as not to short out the equipments. T&B is good choice for compression fitting.. just make sure you use right fitting with the coax it goes on as RG-59 with RG-59 (orange) fitting, RG-6 with RG-6 (blue) fitting, RG-6Quad with (vloit) RG-6Quad, there is one (red) fitting that can do both RG-6 & RG-6Quad coax.

Also just make sure no braided wires are touching the center conductor wire, and some center conductor will have a teflon wrap and make sure those off and see bare copper wire, before you put the fitting on. The fitting may look good on the outside but what is inside the fitting that you can't see is where the problem will be at such as broken conductors or water damage. The T&B fitting is the best for outside connections since they are more waterproof than the crimp-ons fittings, but even with T&B fitting they still should be taped up good for futher waterproofing and will make unscrewing easier if need to service or replace the antenna or pre-amp.

-Willie

jldet5

11-25-07, 01:11 PM

Did you change out the fitting behind the wallplate? that may make the differences. Since you got the compression fitting tool, I would change out all the coax ends if you have a old style crimp or screw on fittings, but before you do that make sure you power down any amps or pre-amps that is in line to any TV's or equipments that the coax is plug in but the best is to unplug from all equipment first as not to short out the equipments. T&B is good choice for compression fitting.. just make sure you use right fitting with the coax it goes on as RG-59 with RG-59 (orange) fitting, RG-6 with RG-6 (blue) fitting, RG-6Quad with (vloit) RG-6Quad, there is one (red) fitting that can do both RG-6 & RG-6Quad coax.

Also just make sure no braided wires are touching the center conductor wire, and some center conductor will have a teflon wrap and make sure those off and see bare copper wire, before you put the fitting on. The fitting may look good on the outside but what is inside the fitting that you can't see is where the problem will be at such as broken conductors or water damage. The T&B fitting is the best for outside connections since they are more waterproof than the crimp-ons fittings, but even with T&B fitting they still should be taped up good for futher waterproofing and will make unscrewing easier if need to service or replace the antenna or pre-amp.

-Willie

Thanks for the info. I am using the purple/violet T&B fittings, or Tandy outdoor silicone filled, weather boots, and quad shield from the antenna all the way down. I double checked my fittings and they say quad shield on the order and the cable is labeled also. I prepared the connections as you described.

What is weird is that the short 24 inch cables seem to act as an interference antenna and the longer 42-48 inch cables worked with no problems. All from the same base cable and fitted pretty much the same. On the current 44 inch cable that is working I decided not to fold back the inner braids but I seriously doubt it matters. Per quad shield instructions for T&B the outer braid and foil is cut off and the inner braid is folded back. I tried that on the shorter cables and it didn't work.

It seems that channel 3.1 just doesn't like the shorter 24 inch length but I've never seen anyone post such weirdness!:confused:

TheMoneyPit

11-25-07, 10:04 PM

jldet5

11-26-07, 06:02 PM

Hello.

I am looking for assistance in selecting an antenna.

House location: Zip code 60148. According to antennaweb I am approximately 20 miles from the signal source.

Planned antenna location: In the attic of a two story house. There is one tree which slightly blocks the line of sight in the direction of the signal source. Otherwise there are no other tall objects around.

The cable will be run from the antenna directly to a single tv. The length will be approximately 30 feet. I would like to split the signal to other tvs at some point in the future.

I can live without WBBM.

After reading through the information here it seems like the Winegard HD7084P would make a good choice. It also sounds like I shouldn't need an amplifier.

Are there other antennas that would work better in my situation and/or things I've missed?

Thank you.

Alum or vinyl sided? If vinyl I'd guess you proably can get away with inside the attic. If your going inside you may want to try out the cheaper radio shack 190. I had both the RS190 and the 8200 outside mounted. Only problem with the 190 was that it folded a bit under high winds which I fixed with cables ties. The 8200 was only a touch better in reception but much better structurally.

TheMoneyPit

11-26-07, 10:24 PM

Alum or vinyl sided? If vinyl I'd guess you proably can get away with inside the attic. If your going inside you may want to try out the cheaper radio shack 190. I had both the RS190 and the 8200 outside mounted. Only problem with the 190 was that it folded a bit under high winds which I fixed with cables ties. The 8200 was only a touch better in reception but much better structurally.

The house is cedar sided.

I will take a second look at the RS190.

Thank you for your response.

veets

11-26-07, 10:36 PM

Is anyone else seeing jerky video (picture freezes, jumps ahead) on WLS-DT HD network programming? This just started yesterday and is now occuring constantly during the prime time shows. At first I thought it was a reception problem, but the video looks fine on some commercials or during local programming like the news. Also, it seems to be occuring only on my Olevia LCD set (537H). It almost looks like some kind of MPEG decoding problem.

hvs10trk

11-27-07, 06:15 AM

veets

11-27-07, 11:07 AM

Yep. The time on their PSIP is off by 10 minutes also.

What's weird is my two 2 LG tuners have no problems displaying the WLS video. The picture movement is fluid. One of the LG tuners is connected to the Olevia and this tuner looks fine through the HDMI port, while the Olevia's internal tuner displays the freezes and jumps on the same program. This leads me to think that the encoding at WLS is out of spec, and the Oleivia tuner can't compensate for the error, but the LG tuners somehow can.

ralphyboy

11-27-07, 03:52 PM

Why is WMAQ always the suckiest station that sucks!!! Watching Heroes last night and they didn't have it in HD for at least the first 30 minutes. Luckily I still get channel 82 on D* so could watch it in HD out of New York, but WMAQ does this on a regular basis. It happened with The Incredibles, all the time with hockey, and other various primetime shows.

jldet5

11-27-07, 05:08 PM

What's weird is my two 2 LG tuners have no problems displaying the WLS video. The picture movement is fluid. One of the LG tuners is connected to the Olevia and this tuner looks fine through the HDMI port, while the Olevia's internal tuner displays the freezes and jumps on the same program. This leads me to think that the encoding at WLS is out of spec, and the Oleivia tuner can't compensate for the error, but the LG tuners somehow can.

Not weird at all. The 5th gen LG tuners on the PC tuner cards have come highly recommended. My new Samsung is working fine on WLS also. I have seen some older tuner cards with the problem you are seeing while others worked....luck of the draw with the older stuff.

andyross63

11-27-07, 05:17 PM

moxie1617

11-27-07, 05:35 PM

veets

11-27-07, 07:46 PM

Not weird at all. The 5th gen LG tuners on the PC tuner cards have come highly recommended. My new Samsung is working fine on WLS also. I have seen some older tuner cards with the problem you are seeing while others worked....luck of the draw with the older stuff.

FWIW. Mine are 3rd generation tuners (3410A and 3510A). The question is, what has WLS-DT been doing the last few days that they weren't doing before, and are they going to fix it?

hvs10trk

11-28-07, 08:50 AM

WMAQ isn't quite ready for primetime. ABC and CBS have worked through this successfully, transitioning from SD <-> HD and audio transitions from stereo to DD 5.1. WMAQ still can't get it right. Are they under staffed or under trained? BTW I didn't mention FOX, WCIU, or WTTW because I don't remember them having this problem.

We don't have this problem because everything is switched HD and audio is always encoded to 5.1. What a lot of stations around the country have for switching their DTV signal is a small 4x1 HD switcher that is fed their Upconverted SD signal and their respective HD network signal. I is then triggered by the master control switcher. Depending on if someone forgets to enable this trigger or the trigger is intermittent then you'll have SD during HD events. This is still a new area for a lot of stations including us here in Chicago. We have got it pretty well down by switching everything HD and constantly encoding 5.1. WLS is pretty much in the same boat as us. I'm sure WBBM will be the same way once their new facility is built.

hvs10trk

11-28-07, 08:54 AM

FWIW. Mine are 3rd generation tuners (3410A and 3510A). The question is, what has WLS-DT been doing the last few days that they weren't doing before, and are they going to fix it?

In their defense, an intermittent problem like this may not be easily noticed by the station. Well, unless they monitor the boards. :D

evil

11-28-07, 10:41 PM

I just want to know when WMAQ local news is going HD like WLS is, and WBBM will be in 2008

Lord Vader

11-28-07, 11:33 PM

IIRC, a newspaper article indicated WMAQ is shooting for mid-2008 to go HD for their local news, if then.

veets

11-28-07, 11:42 PM

In their defense, an intermittent problem like this may not be easily noticed by the station. Well, unless they monitor the boards. :D

This video freezing problem is really severe on my TV. It is easily noticed and happens continuously on certain shows. ("Dirty Sexy Money" was freezing, the 10 PM news looks fine). The problem makes the program unwatchable. I would imagine it only occurs on certain TVs, which is why the station hasn't noticed it. So who do we report this to? I switched over to the ABC station in Milwaukee. No freezes with the same program there. So this is definetly something WLS is doing. Besides my Olevia, what other brands are having problems with their video signal?

Bolo2896

11-29-07, 10:13 AM

This might not be the right forum for this, but I was wondering if anyone could help me with this question. I have an HDTV hooked up to basic analog cable and an attic antenna. Things were working fine for about a year and a half, but yesterday something strange happened. I get no signal on any of the analog stations, either from cable or antenna. I can still receive the digital stations, both QAM "in the clear" from cable and OTA digital. I also have a Tivo hooked up, and when I watch through it, I can still see all analog stations, cable and OTA.

Did my NTSC tuner in my TV die, but my ATSC tuner is still functioning? Can that even happen? I wasn't aware a tuner could stop working. Do I need to call out a repair man, or is there something I can try to get it working again? Thanks!

moxie1617

11-29-07, 10:25 AM

We don't have this problem because everything is switched HD and audio is always encoded to 5.1. What a lot of stations around the country have for switching their DTV signal is a small 4x1 HD switcher that is fed their Upconverted SD signal and their respective HD network signal. I is then triggered by the master control switcher. Depending on if someone forgets to enable this trigger or the trigger is intermittent then you'll have SD during HD events. This is still a new area for a lot of stations including us here in Chicago. We have got it pretty well down by switching everything HD and constantly encoding 5.1. WLS is pretty much in the same boat as us. I'm sure WBBM will be the same way once their new facility is built.

Sounds like they are underfunded for equipment, not understaffed or undertrained. Tks.

hvs10trk

11-29-07, 11:49 AM

hvs10trk

11-29-07, 11:54 AM

Sounds like they are underfunded for equipment, not understaffed or undertrained. Tks.

I wouldn't say underfunded, thats just the way the networks designed the HD setup for their affiliates. ABC affiliates are setup the same way, some decide to take a different route.

Rammitinski

11-29-07, 02:09 PM

Did my NTSC tuner in my TV die, but my ATSC tuner is still functioning? Can that even happen?Yes, it can happen, and it's possible that it did happen. I had a TV a few years ago where the NTSC tuner went out entirely. I used a VCR for a tuner 'till I got a new TV (it was a cheap, analog set which was already a few years old, and it wasn't worth repairing - it was a good excuse to upgrade to a larger set, anyway).

You could try "rebooting" (unplugging) the TV, and rescanning for the analog channels first, though, before calling the repairman (if you haven't tried that already).

Bolo2896

11-29-07, 03:04 PM

Thanks. I've tried the reboot, but not the rescan yet. I'll try that when I get home. The TV isn't even two years old, but the warranty was only for a year. I wonder if I can fight with Sony to get them to repair this? Its a 200 lb tube, so I'd need a house call, which I'm sure will make this almost more expensive than its worth.

jldet5

11-29-07, 05:19 PM

Bolo2896

11-30-07, 10:11 AM

Thanks for the advice. I was just going to call around from the phone book, although TCS was on my list. I would imagine it would be very easy to mess up other parts of the TV while working in there.

Rammitinski

12-01-07, 02:33 AM

If it's too expensive you can always just use an old VCR or a cheap DVD recorder's NTSC tuner.

Or you could even spring for something better like the Philips DVDR3575H HDD/DVD recorder (from www.circuitcity.com) or the $100. cheaper Magnavox H2080MWS (from www.walmart.com) for the added bonus of no-fee DVR capability at that TV.

JB81

12-01-07, 01:03 PM

I don't have the box to my preamp and it doesn't list anything on the amp. When I first got the antenna earlier this year I had it w/out the preamp and I was able to WHA-DT but no other madison stations. With the preamp I get all of the madison stations except WMSN-DT (11). And after sunset with right conditions I get chicago starting with Fox coming in first then nbc, abc & mntv. wgn and wciu i have a hard time keeping a lock on with madison brodcasting on 19 and 27. The cable I'm using came from someone who was moving away and had it connected to a dish. It does list RG6 on the cable so i figured it would be fine. It is about 20 feet longer than what I need. I don't think it's Quad shielded since it dosn't list it.

Sorry I didn't post back right away but i'm too cheap to have Internet access at home. Which brings me to my next question, I'm too cheap to pay over $50 - $60 for cable so I can get NFL Network and I heard that my network tv in chicago will carry the bears game this thursday, is this true and is there any suggestions for a way to pick up mntv50 either analog or digital from 80 miles out.