OK. I have an Optoma DV10 which I love except it has such a short throw.
I've read the reviews on the IN72 and purchased a new one for a great price. My plan was to use it at the back of the room.
I've just set both projectors up with a movie that I happen to have two of, Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets.

I get both projectors throwing the same size pic making sure neither is close to a far end of their adjustable throw.

The inFocus is hooked up to a Samsung 860 via HDMI outputting 720P.
Set the inFocus to auto detect and confirmed the 720P coming in.
I know this isn't the best DVD player but I know it isn't terrible either.

The Optoma easily beat out the inFocus, not even close. The Optoma has a nice 3D look and nice color. The inFocus with factory settings just isn't nearly as sharp.
I'd say there isn't anything improved other than the throw distance. Color, black level, sharpness.... the thing that really kills me is the soft picture.
What's up with this? I'm stunned.

I tried component but it was worse.

If I can't find something I'm missing I'll have to get rid of it.

Any help would be appreciated.

cavu has some settings he listed, basically defaults with rgb pallet I belive.
but one thing i found that helped mine the other day is to set the sharpness up a little. the default is a little soft for my tastes. Im using DVI for the dvd player and svideo for the laserdisk.

Going from the Optoma to the InFocus isn't much of an upgrade. They're both 480P projectors. With DVDs, I actually like the DV10s picture better than some 720P LCDs. That said, the picture of the IN72 and the DV10 should be relatively close. It's certainly possible there's something wrong with the InFocus.

Jim

If it wasn't much of an upgrade I would be happy, as I was just after a new position for the PJ. I know they're both 480, but I read everywhere that the IN72 is the best 480P out there. Problem is it is a pretty significant downgrade.

I don't think this is an issue of preference, with some people choosing differently in a side by side comparison. It's not taste, but significant differences.
At this point I'm beginning to think that the DV10 is the best kept secret in projectors.

I'm scared to put it up for sale because it may be defective. What else could it be? I just don't get it. The reviews are spectacular, and the Optoma was actually called out as inferior in one review.

"In addition, some might consider the All-In-One projectors from Optoma (MovieTime DV10) and Epson (MovieMate 25) both reviewed, and containing speakers and DVD players, but the performance of the IN72 definitely exceeds both of these."

This guy must be going on memory alone.

Just trying to figure it out.

I bought it from an individual who received it as a gift from an inFocus employee, so I can't take it back to the store.

Ouch.

Factory settings are for reference video generators. Even if you use HDMI there is no guarantee there is reference. Go into the colorspace menu and try RGB video vs. RGB PC.

Get AVIA or DVE. Check your brightness/contrast - on both the player as well as the PJ.
Look at the resolution and sharpness patterns - and see indeed that what you might think is a sharper picture is actually edge enhancement that obscures detail. Also upconverting to 720P from a 480P DVD to a 480P PJ - can actually soften the picture. Stick to 480P. You can check the AVIA overscan patterns to see if you are loosing the edges and see if you need adjust overscan settings on the PJ or player. It is likely you do not have scanline mapping if so - and that can soften the picture.

You are also likely using the Optoma in brighter uncalibrated modes - which changes white points and secondary cyan, yellow, magenta colors. Look at standard color bars and focus on the colors - likely yellow is more green and cyan magenta are more blue. Brighter is not better if it changes the colors - does the Optoma have more accurate cinema presets?

Reviewers review calibrated PJ - calibrate yours and you will recalibrate your thinking.

"Look at the resolution and sharpness patterns - and see indeed that what you might think is a sharper picture is actually edge enhancement that obscures detail."

The Optoma shows much more detail. No question. I work professionally in Photoshop and I know color and what oversharpening is. The inFocus throws an image that I expected to see when I bought my first projector (the Optoma). I thought it'll be OK but really huge. Well the Optoma knocked my socks off and I couldn't believe I didn't get a projector earlier. This one is definitely ho-hum after the DV10

" Also upconverting to 720P from a 480P DVD to a 480P PJ - can actually soften the picture. Stick to 480P."

I will try that. I did try hooking up a computer and pushing the movie through that. Same result. The Optoma is using the AI setting and is actually not as bright as the in72. I tried turning the in72 down but it doesn't help. My main issue is the lack of sharpness anyway.

I don't know what scanline mapping is.
All the reviews state how good this projector is out of the box. I'm sure it would be better after calibration, but right now it isn't even close to the Optoma.

Should of bought a H31 Optoma, or even a HD70 if you want the same 3d look.

I currently own a h31 and have bought the in72 should be here tomorrow. I will let everybody know which IMO is better. My h31 was calibrated also but I suspect the in72 still to have more accurate primary's. I have always thought the optoma's to have cartoonish color primary's. I will do a review and post it asap.

Also, try a different DVD player. Some of the Samsung had problems crushing blacks.

Part of the problem is a combi DVD/PJ is already doing digital scan-line mapping. You need a DVD player that does that if you want the same result. The SP4805 and IN72 have a very active community of those who have found the digital DVD players that can do the same thing with a 480P PJ over DVI/HDMI. Follow cavu around I am sure he could help you get what you need set up right....

Likely your sources driven into Optomas combi DVD/PJ will exhibit the same problems.

Thanks Kras. This sounds like a reasonable explanation. I find it odd that reviews don't mention this kind of thing. I'll do a search on the forum.

UPDATE-

The change to 480P output didn't change much, but I used composite input into the DV10 and got very similar results to the inFocus. So the internal DVD is doing a great job, though I can see how the Optoma needs colors tweaked to get a neutral gray.

Will an Oppo or similar player hooked to the inFocus give me the results I'm seeing with the Optoma?

While Oppo may improve your IN72 DVD slightly, I doubt it will change the image that much if you see a huge difference between your Optoma DV10 and IN72. Why don't you try a STB DVD player through both PJ using a component switcher to go back and forth between the 2 PJ to compare. This will let you know if truely one is better than the other by flipping back and forth (a component switching receiver lets you do this easily).

I don't need to do any more tests to see if there is a real difference. I'm running the same movie with the scenes in sync, covering one lens at a time. There is a dramatic difference. I can see that my Optoma needs color calibration, but there is much more detail there.

What I need to find out now is if a dvd player with scan-line mapping will get me where I need to go.

Well then get a new bulb for your Optoma and get rid of the IN72. I have Mits HD1000u personally and it may be more of an upgrade for you than another 480p PJ.

I'm sure the Mits is much better. The thing is I can sell the Optoma and come out even, or even make a few bucks. I really just wanted to be able to have a projector in my back wall and the Optoma will not do that. I thought the inFocus was a sure bet.

The cost of the Mits is too much for me right now. I'm sure it's worth it, but I just can't swing it.

If I do a search for "scan-line mapping" I get posts with 800 entries.
Any help would be appreciated.

I'm sure the Mits is much better. The thing is I can sell the Optoma and come out even, or even make a few bucks. I really just wanted to be able to have a projector in my back wall and the Optoma will not do that. I thought the inFocus was a sure bet.

The cost of the Mits is too much for me right now. I'm sure it's worth it, but I just can't swing it.

If I do a search for "scan-line mapping" I get posts with 800 entries.
Any help would be appreciated.

I bet the Infocus was less than half of what you paid for the Optoma. I've seen the DV10 in action and wasn't impressed, maybe it's your Infocus unit (faulty), or the DVD player isn't a good match.

Try the SP4805 and Bravo thread....

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=660701&highlight=SP4805+Bravo

By using the analog inputs on the Optoma you proved it is not your Infocus - it is your DVD player - you need a digital one that can be configured properly for 480P scan line mapping.

Actually I paid $50 less for the Optoma as it had 36 hours on it. I fed the InFocus from several dvd players. I find it really hard to imagine someone not being impressed with a correctly set up DV10, but hey I'm sure most people find it hard to believe my situation. I find it hard to believe, but I've already decided who's right between the reviews and my lyin' eyes.

I've got them both set up side by side.

I really appreciate the link Kras, but from what I gather people can't find that unit any more.
I also am not that interested in doing capacitor replacement etc to try and get a good picture out of this.

I'm posting it up for sale.

Anyone interested drop me a line.

I see a lot of people feeding 720p to IN72 and say that the picture is soft.

I am feeding 480P to IN72 via Panasonic XP50 (same as XP30 except that XP50
can read DVD-Audio and as most of you know XP30 is a top rated DVD player)

The picture is very sharp. BTW I am using component.

I have comcast HD and I am feeding 1080i via HDMI. Again picture
is very sharp. All default settings.

I also watch SD channels (Digital channels like Discovery Science and Encore)
Feeding 480i via HDMI and picture is unbvelievable.

Dont know why people complain.

There is nothing wrong with the PJ or the default settings.
Bad source => Bad picture quality

I can hook this player up to my Panasonic HD plasma, with upscaling in the player, and it looks pretty darn good.

There are several possibilities here. One is that different people have different expectations. Some people think Bose speakers sound incredible and honestly can't hear a difference between them and good speakers. But I'm not gonna go there. I'll pass on this due to the number of people giving praise.

Another is that I need a better player. This may be, but I'm not sure it's worth it for me to buy a high end player, or one that I have to mod. I thought this was going to be relatively painless.

Another possibility is that I have a bad unit.

Problem is I don't know what the issue is.
Right now I'm just really frustrated and am ready to just deal with having my Optoma projector out on a coffee table in the middle of the room.

Blow up your plasma to movie screen size before you compare sharpness....since you cannot do that - you have to make a posterboardscreen to tape to your plasma and mount your PJ a few feet away to get the same size image to compare sharpness....

Certainly the advantage of the all in one PJ/DVD box is the pixel perfect scanline mapping. It can be achieved - many are happy with their setups! And Mupi saying he is happy - you will not get much better than that. Usually he is extremely unhappy!

The Projector Central review had this to say about the IN72:

"It produces a beautiful, bright picture with well saturated color, suitable for DVD movies, video games, and other 480-line content. While its performance with High-Definition content isn't as impressive as other 480p units, it is also brighter than those other models."

They had this to say about the DV10:

"Scaling of HDTV signals is excellent, with 720p and 1080i sources downscaled cleanly. Like the H31, we were impressed by how good HD signals can look on a 480-line projector. Despite the lack of a DVI interface, the DV10 does an excellent job maintaining overall HDTV image integrity through the analog VGA port."

"Dont know why people complain. "

I'm searching for a solution to a problem, but you can call it complaining if you want to.
I'm not getting good results with my IN72 and I'm sure other's who have issues with sharpness aren't either.

If you don't have issues that's great for you.

If this scan-line mapping is the solution, then it would be great information for everyone in these forums to know, along with which players have it and which don't.

This is exactly what the power of online forums do for us.
That and getting digs in on other posters. ;*)

you know that if you have an inferior connection like composite nothing looks good I am so happy with my in72 it just amazes me but i'm running component from my satellilte box and dvi from my bravo d1 , I know that i'm a little behind the curve with this purchase but until they put real movies shot in hd and when the mandate for digital tv in 2009 i'm going to remain behind the curve , I had the x1 then the 4805 and basically from the x1 on it has only cost me a total of 60 dollars to upgrade and the people i have sold them to are quite happy with them of course i tweaked the hell out of tlhem but the in72 is the best so far thank you kras and cavu because these projectors would be just ordianary with out your help and expertise you guys rock

Hook a laptop DVD playback using modern DVD playback software to your IN72 running at native resolution 854x480X60 Hz from DVI->HDMI or VGA and let us know how it looks. If your laptop can do 48 Hz it should be even better as it eliminates 3:2 pull down issues for smoother panning scenes.

"you know that if you have an inferior connection like composite nothing looks good"

It was HDMI at both 720P and 480P.

I did hook up my laptop but the result was very similar. I did not have any special software though, just the Apple DVD player.

I may have been able to buy a different DVD player and experiment, but couldn't have the cash tied up while having 2 projectors in the house. If I bought another DVD player and it didn't make things better I would have gotten sick.

Tonight I sold the projector that didn't work for me.
Some time in the future I may get a different DVD player and hook it up to the Optoma via component to see if this scan line issue can be resolved before I invest in another projector.
It was a $25 lesson. Could have been worse.

Interestingly enough I sold it to a guy who used to work for InFocus. He said he worked on the first projector, doing both a lcd and dlp while swapping the board around to both. Now he works for himself setting up high end systems.

"Dont know why people complain. "

I'm searching for a solution to a problem, but you can call it complaining if you want to.
I'm not getting good results with my IN72 and I'm sure other's who have issues with sharpness aren't either.

If you don't have issues that's great for you.

If this scan-line mapping is the solution, then it would be great information for everyone in these forums to know, along with which players have it and which don't.

This is exactly what the power of online forums do for us.
That and getting digs in on other posters. ;*)

I was referring to "complaints" in general by people here about the
sharpness on IN72

There arent that many cheap DVD players that get the top rating
at hometheaterhifi.com
If BRAVO is gone then OPPO is probably the cheapest and top rated
DVD player that you could get. Panasonic XP30/50 has the Faroujda
chip and does a wonderful job outputting 480p.

I noticed that IN72 does a much better job with 480i compared to SP4805
which has the Faroujda chip. SD channels are so much better, even in the
letter box mode (i.e zooming 4:3 to 16:9)
You might want to try feeding 480i via component to IN72 and also
try feeding 1080i from the HD box via HDMI

Of course It is also possible that I got a better unit. After all the frustration
I had to go through with X1 and 4805 I sure deserve a good IN72 :-)


Good luck with your search for a solution to your problem.

Sorry about taking your post too personally. I wish I could have had the time to figure it all out.

Just a few comments here.
First, I don't know which PJ is better.
Second, my thoughts and suggestions might not make any difference.
But:
Comparison testing is normally done using the same player with the same movie with the same connection type.
Obviously sitting at the same distance from the same screen and calibrated from the same source. Even the THX setup and simple adjustments from the same disk would be sufficient for a side-by-side comparison in your case.

DVDs are not native 480p and your player has to deinterlace to get 480p. While the native format of a DVD may be an arguable point, the concensus is that good processing in a TV or PJ of 480i beats the 480p output of most DVD players by a significant amount.

Using 480p bypasses the Faroudja processing in my 4805 and I assume it does also with the Pixelworks chip in the IN72. (as does 720p or 1080i or various VGA resolutions) The InFocus projectors have far superior processing than your Samsung DVD player, so a better test would have been to send 480i to the PJ. (as "Mupi" suggested)

The best performance would probably come from one-to-one pixel mapping which can only be done with a few specific source devices. (which generally contain superior internal processing like the Faroudja chip in the OPPO player)

As an aside, Samsung is notorious for poor deinterlacing on their products leading to the complaint that HD looks good on their displays but analog looks worse than it does on a standard definition TV. I don't know of any Korean company that has been willing to license any of the better video processing circuits. It is possible that you have actually been comparing DVD players rather than projectors with your tests. Have you tried swapping players between the two projectors?

Yes I did try hooking the external player to the Optoma via component, and the results were poor. I also used a laptop to send the InFocus a signal as well.
Mupi actually stated that he feeds 480P into his projector from his DVD and 480i from SDTV. I wasn't interested in SDTV at all. The Optoma DV10 has an internal DVD player that looks great.
Now I wish I could test out sending 480i but of course I don't have the projector any more.
Is that the general consensus of the IN72 crowd, sending 480i for DVD?

I'm sure you are correct in saying I didn't really get the potential out of the IN72 that I could have.
I wish I could have had the money tied up for a while but couldn't. I had a buyer and had to do the deal.
If this simple suggestion of sending 480i changes the picture that dramatically then I'd probably consider the IN72 again in the future, especially at the 399 I see crop up now and again.

Yes I did try hooking the external player to the Optoma via component, and the results were poor. I also used a laptop to send the InFocus a signal as well.
Mupi actually stated that he feeds 480P into his projector from his DVD and 480i from SDTV. I wasn't interested in SDTV at all. The Optoma DV10 has an internal DVD player that looks great.
Now I wish I could test out sending 480i but of course I don't have the projector any more.
Is that the general consensus of the IN72 crowd, sending 480i for DVD?


well it depends on what you have.

If you have a DVD player with top notch deinterlacing like XP30/50 or OPPO
that can output 480P either via component or DVI/HDMI then sending 480p
is a better option.

If you dont have a DVD player that has top notch deinterlacing, then
sending 480i is the option, provided the PJ has better deinterlacing.

Either the DVD player does the deinterlacing or the PJ does, but which
ever does should be good at it. Otherwise the picture quality sucks.

I dont blame you. I was in a similar situation when I had SP4805. Not with the
picture quality but with other issues. I just wanted to return it as soon as possible
instead of experimenting with it. Who wants to keep an item that they
dont like and keep experimenting with it unless it is for free :-)
First impression is the last impression !